Littoral Zone #15 | Seasons of a Lake with Brian Chan and Phil Rowley

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February 28, 2025

In part one of How Lakes Work, Brian and Phil explained lake classification and the key zones we should focus on. In part two, we’ll explore the seasons of a lake and how lakes change throughout the seasons. Brian will break down what happens each season, how it impacts fish behavior, and where you should be fishing. Understanding these will help you know where to fish and when.

Show Notes with Brian Chan and Phil Rowley on Seasons of a Lake. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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The Seasons of a Lake: How They Impact Fishing

Fall

06:15 – As temperatures drop, lakes go through fall turnover. This happens when surface water cools to match the temperature of deeper water. Wind aids in mixing the lake from top to bottom, spreading oxygen. The mixing stirs up debris and gases like methane. This makes conditions less ideal for fish.

Fall happens in three stages: early, mid, and late. As the water gets colder, fish move into shallower areas to feed.

In early fall, they stay in deeper water (15 -18 feet).
By mid-fall, they move up to 10-12 feet.
In late fall, they’re in the shallows (5 -7 feet).

How Often Do Lakes Turn Over?

Lake turnover only occurs in the fall and spring, when water temperatures even out from top to bottom. But not all lakes turn over. Sometimes, lakes look murky for other reasons, like the wind stirring up sediment or the rain washing in dirty water. Brian says shallow lakes mix all year and never fully stratify.

Winter

14:04 – In winter, oxygen levels drop upward from the bottom of the lake due to anaerobic decomposition occurring at the bottom. All the plants that grew during the open water season start dying since they can’t photosynthesize. As they decay, they use up oxygen from the water.

What causes winter kill?

17:08 – Winter kill could happen early, mid-winter, or even days before the ice comes off. As winter goes on, the oxygen-poor zone in the lake keeps growing until it reaches just below the ice. When there’s not enough oxygen left, fish suffocate and die.

Some lakes lose 100% of their fish, while others have partial kills where bigger fish die first. In some cases, fish survive by finding oxygen-rich spots, like areas with underground springs.

Lake Aeration

19:52 – Aeration is a tool to try to prevent a winter kill, but it is not a hundred percent guarantee of bringing a lake through. To aerate a lake, it needs to be at least 25 to 30 feet in depth. There are different types of aeration:

Surface-mounted aerators are the simplest type of aerator with a submersible pump hanging under a float. The pump is two to three feet below the surface, and the propeller is pulling water up to the surface and then spraying it up, so there’s an exchange of oxygen that’s being brought up.

Surface aerators are relatively inexpensive but don’t always guarantee the lake will be saved.
Another typical aeration technology is to pump air from a compressor on land through some rubber hose to a diffuser anchored below a big float. The air from the hose is pushed through a micro-pored ceramic diffuser. As the tiny bubbles rise, they create a current and add oxygen to the water.

Aeration is more of a last-resort effort to slow down lakes’ natural aging process, known as eutrophication.

Spring

26:26 – When the ice melts off a lake, the water doesn’t mix right away. The top layer is colder, while the deeper water is warmer because of plant decay over winter. Fish stay near the surface, just like they did under the ice.

The surface warms over the next few weeks until it matches the bottom temperature. Then, a strong wind can mix everything up in a process called spring turnover.

Summer

34:55 – In summer, lakes form a barrier called the thermocline. This is where warm water meets cold water, usually around 5 to 8 meters deep. Wind can’t mix the water below it, so oxygen levels drop in deeper areas. Trouts stay just above the thermocline, where the water is cool and has enough oxygen.

Follow Brian on Instagram @brianchanflyfishing

Connect with him on Facebook Brian Chan

Visit their website: Phil Rowley & Brian Chan’s Stillwater Fly Fishing Store.

Seasons of a Lake Resources Noted in the Show

Check out Phil’s book:

Check out Morris & Chan on Fly Fishing Trout Lakes

Seasons of a Lake Videos Noted in the Show

Related Podcast Episodes

Littoral Zone #14 – How Lakes Work with Brian Chan and Phil Rowley

Littoral Zone #2 with Phil Rowley and Brian Chan – Stillwater Fly Fishing Tips and Tricks

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

WFS 725 Transcript-transcript Download

724 | Streamer Fishing for Trout with Tommy Lynch – Fish Whisperer, Pere Marquette River, Small Creek

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Dave

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February 26, 2025

Streamer fishing for trout is all about movement, and few people understand it better than Tommy Lynch. In this episode, Tommy breaks down his four-step framework for fishing streamers, explains the difference between suicide fish and would-be predators, and shares why most anglers aren’t getting the full potential out of their sink tips. If you’re looking to up your game on big browns in small creeks, this episode is packed with tips you won’t want to miss.

Show Notes with Tommy Lynch on Streamer Fishing for Trout. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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Episode Chapters with Tommy Lynch on Streamer Fishing for Trout

How to Fish Streamers Like a Jerkbait for Big Browns

Streamer fishing isn’t just about casting and stripping. It’s about making your fly move like a wounded baitfish—something trout can’t resist. Tommy explains that the best way to do this is by mimicking the action of a jerkbait, specifically the black and gold No. 13 Rapala, which has been deadly on brown trout for years.

Four Key Techniques for Streamer Action:

Down Swat – A true jerkbait-style movement where you “swat” the fly through the water to make it dart and dig before swimming out.
Straight Strip – A steady retrieve with small breaks in rhythm, mimicking an injured baitfish.
Proper Placement – You want the fly close enough for the trout to see and react but not so close that it spooks them.
Reading the Fish – Watch for slight movements—if a trout shifts left or right, it’s game on.

The Two Types of Trout: Suicide Fish vs. Would-be Predators

When streamer fishing, Tommy breaks down trout into two categories: suicide fish and would-be predators. Understanding these can help you dial in your approach.

Suicide Fish
These trout sit tight against structure, waiting to ambush anything that moves. They don’t need much convincing—just proof of life. A quick down swat and pause can be enough to trigger a strike. Key to this is using slack to let your sink tip actually sink. Just casting and waiting won’t cut it. You need to shake out line or reach toward the fly to help it drop.

Would-Be Predators
These fish aren’t actively hunting but can be triggered into striking. They often hang in slower water, watching for an easy meal. A straight strip in the middle of the retrieve keeps their interest, but the real trick is slowing down near the end. That pause can be enough to flip a passive trout into attack mode.

Whether you’re targeting an aggressive fish or coaxing a hesitant one, understanding their behavior is key. And remember—just because you bought a sink tip doesn’t mean it’s sinking. Use it right, or you’re just dragging it through the water.

Essential Streamers for Trout Fishing

When it comes to streamers, Tommy keeps a variety on hand. From classic muddler minnows to modern swim flies, each has a purpose.

Go-To Patterns

Muddler Minnow – A timeless fly, perfect for imitating minnows, especially during fry season.
Sex Dungeon – A bigger, articulated fly that moves aggressively in the water.
Blane’s Game Changer – A segmented fly with a lifelike swimming action, great in slow water.
Great Lakes Deceiver – A swim fly with a broad, gliding motion, ideal for provoking strikes.

Matching the hatch is key. Some days, trout want small minnows on a five-weight. Other days, they’ll chase down a big meal. Adjusting your presentation—whether it’s a slow jerk or a fast retrieve—can make all the difference.

Small Stream Brown Trout: Stealth and Strategy

Fishing small creeks for brown trout is a whole different game. Tight water, overhanging trees, and spooky fish make for a serious challenge. But the reward? Lots of fish and zero crowds.

Key Tactics for Small Creeks

Stealth is everything – Move slowly and blend in. Stand still, and trout may swim right up to you.
Cast upstream – This keeps your fly in the trout’s line of sight while reducing drag.
Short leaders work – A 6- to 7-foot leader helps control the fly without excess slack.
Walk far, fish hard – Many of these waters require hiking in. The more effort, the fewer people you’ll see.

Michigan’s small streams are packed with wild brown trout, and many are rarely fished. If you’re willing to put in the miles, you’ll find fish that are aggressive, unpressured, and ready to eat.

Finding Big Browns in Tiny Creeks

Small creeks may be tight, but they hold more fish than you’d think—including some big browns. The trick is knowing where to look.

What to Look For

Heavy structure – Undercut banks, log jams, and tag alder thickets create safe zones for trout.
Hidden water – Spots that seem impossible to fish often hold the best fish.
Naive trout – Less pressure means more aggressive fish willing to hit a well-placed fly.

Fishing these small creeks is an adventure. You’ll crawl through brush, jump logs, and make tight casts. But the reward? Wild trout in untouched water. And sometimes, a true giant where you least expect it.

Winter Streamer Fishing: When to Go and What to Expect

Streamer fishing in winter isn’t always easy, but it’s worth it. The fish are bigger, more aggressive, and fewer people are on the water. Tommy follows weather windows, layering up to chase those cold-water eats.

Key Seasonal Patterns

Fall (October–November) – Browns are aggressive but defensive. They hit flies to chase off intruders, not necessarily to eat.
Post-Spawn (December–January) – Big fish get hungry. They need calories after spawning, so the strikes are all about feeding.
Late Winter (February–March) – Fewer bites, but larger fish. Some exhausted browns even take swung flies, which is rare.

When streamer fishing slows down, steelhead take center stage. By late November, Tommy swaps the strip flies for two-handed swing flies. If you’re tough enough to fish in freezing temps, you might just hook into a monster.

The Salmon Invasion: How It’s Changing Michigan’s Trout Fishing

Salmon runs bring big fish and big crowds. But the rise in anglers chasing Chinook has made traditional trout fishing tougher. Once, anglers could target big browns feeding on salmon eggs. Now, with more people pushing upriver, those spots are packed early in the season.

The solution? Hike farther, fish hidden creeks, and find spots that others overlook. The browns are still there—you just have to work harder to reach them.

You can find Tommy on Instagram @thefishwhisperer.com_tommy.

Visit their website at TheFishWhisperer.com.

Related Podcast Episodes

WFS 347 – Streamers for Trout with Tommy Lynch – Brown Trout, Drunk and Disorderly, Pere Marquette

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript

Dave (2s): Fly fishing and streamer Evolution owe a lot to the conventional fishing community from Larry Dalberg to the Black and Gold RuPaul. There’s no question that the more you make your fly mimic these lures and the actual wounded fish, the more success you’re gonna have. And today, you’re going to hear from one of the biggest streamer guests in the game, and you’re gonna find out his four step framework to fishing streamers for success. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, how’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. Dave (44s): I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and streamer fishermen than just about anyone out there. Tommy Lynch, pier Marquette Guide, and Small Creek Fishing Master is gonna share his best tips on fishing your fly. Today you’re gonna find out what the difference is between a would-be predator fish and a suicide fish. You’re gonna find out how to fish each of these differently today. You’re gonna understand why a sink tip doesn’t sink correctly and how you actually make it sink. And we’re also gonna find out what a just dead fish looks like and an almost dead fish looks like to these predatory fish and how you fish it. All right, let’s find out how to catch big fish and small creeks with the swim fly. Dave (1m 26s): Here he is, Tommy Lynch from the fish whisper.com. How you doing, Tommy? I’m Tommy (1m 33s): Doing well, thanks Dave. Yeah, Dave (1m 34s): It’s good to, it’s good to have you back on here. We’ve, I look back at the archives and episode 3 47 was over two and a half years ago. We’ve done a lot of content since then. I think we’re over 700 episodes now, so it’s pretty cool to have you back on. We talked about streamers, we focused on that. We’re gonna talk, you know, a little bit about that today as well. But maybe give us an update. What’s been going on in the last couple years with you? Tommy (1m 54s): You know, it, it’s kind of the same bat time, same bat channel kind of stuff. It’s, you know, I do a lot of that summer trout stuff. You know, we lean into some of the fall winter steel heading. I tie a lot of flies when it gets cold, and then I repeat the same event around the, the end of March there. So Dave (2m 13s): That’s it. So you, and is is the Pier Marquette talk about the rivers, is that still your focus throughout the year? Tommy (2m 19s): Yeah, I, I’ve never been much of a a, a pond jumper as much as a kind of a crick crusader there. They’re, I do like the rivers, I like the cricks smaller streams. I do fish tail waters, and I did a lot in my twenties and thirties when I was always hunting for, you know, the big one. And, you know, you take that bell enough and then you just start kinda, I think you get off by the time the smoke clears as much or more about the eat the individual, eat from the, the fish as you do anything else. So I have seen that, you know, even when I take clients to a tail water versus taking them into a small water, they’re, their visual seasoning on each fish is, is far stronger than that of say, getting a, a tug at distance. Tommy (3m 7s): And then, you know, just remember too, you know, a lot of times when I used to fish leaded stuff too, I mean there was always that one two second interval of maybe is this a snag? Maybe is it a fish? You know, when you’re fishing that visual swim stuff, it’s, it’s all kind of right in your face, you know, they’re picking a fight with you, Dave (3m 24s): There’s no question. Yeah, yeah. Is that pretty much what you’re doing when you go out on a guide trip? Is it all about that swim stuff, the drunken disorderly and, and just, is that mostly what you’re fishing? Tommy (3m 35s): Well, yeah, I mean the, the fall obviously we, you know, we definitely get to mix up the steelhead, the brown trout with the, the strip configurations as we get colder and the ice and the guides becomes a little bit more prevalent. We definitely like to lean on that two-handed swing. This the same time about, you know, the brown start to slip in that bite as you get that 38, 37 degree water temperature, it’s harder to beg from them. The steelhead obviously could care less about that water temperature. But, but yeah, I mean through, I would say, you know, most of summer is, is mice and dry flies, which is great. You know, obviously if there’s a thunderstorm of good proportions, we’ll jump on the streamer grenade. But yeah, it’s, it’s kind of a, we fish a lot of swim flies over the course of the year. Tommy (4m 19s): You’re not wrong Dave. So. Dave (4m 20s): Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And, and what’s, and so the pier Marquette, so you’re, it sounds like you’re fishing the pier Marquette and tributaries to that, or are there other waters out there in that area? There Tommy (4m 29s): Are tributaries to the pm I fish all of those. We have a bunch of surrounding and I’m gonna say unmentionables Dave. Dave (4m 37s): Yeah, sure. Tommy (4m 38s): Just because we, you know, the, the kind of the unsung rule on, you know, promoting I suppose in Michigan has always been, you know, the pure Marquette, Sabel, Manistee and Muskegon have always been on the chopping block for using, you know, in, in the promotional needs and whatnot. And then everything else, there’s a special place in trout hell, if you mention it. So. Dave (4m 58s): That’s right, that’s right. Good. So we won’t talk about that. We’ll talk about some of the, the techniques. But when you’re fishing the, if it’s the pure Marquette versus say some of those smaller streams, are you fishing the, the streamer flies differently? Tommy (5m 10s): I love this Que Dave. That’s a great question. So it’s huge. You know, it’s, it’s like all these sink tips are like golf clubs, you know, everybody wants this, you know, this tried and true one sync tip that plays all fields. And the closest we’ve ever come to that was an airflow surf 2 65 at 26 and a half feet. It was a type five, it was tapered in a triangle fashion so that the handler met the runner. But you could carry 30, 35 on the let go. It was the one line. I could fish in a lot of my cricks and then turn around and go fishing on the biggest tail water I know of, which is rare for a sink tip. I will say most sink tips, especially in those 30 foot ranges, you know what I mean, that kind of limits you to a certain size of river that you’re, you’re gonna gonna tickle that with in order to use the entire head or at least get it out of the rod tip. Tommy (6m 2s): You need some river to do that. A lot of the rivers that we’re fishing are not just a little bit narrower than the average, you know, tail water. But on the same token, they’re pocketed, they’re not runs, they’re not, you know what I mean? There’s, there’s a ditch in a pocket about the size of the hood of a car, and you have to sell that. Dave (6m 20s): Oh, okay. And is this on the larger, is this on the pier or is this on more of the smaller stuff? Tommy (6m 24s): This is on the pier. I mean, the pier Marquette will fish a little differently as you get downstream And it widens and you can get into, you know, some of the two handed applications and stuff. But, you know, I’ve got really four go-to strategies that I like to use with this. ’cause the idea here, Dave, is to get this as close to a jerk bait as humanly possible. That being probably the, the most deadly kryptonite I’ve ever seen work on brown trout, which is the black and gold number 13 rappel, what that lure in its own right has done to the general, you know, trout. It is, it, it is their nemesis. And I believe that the closer we can get flies to move in that fashion, the more likely, not only will we catch more fish, but we’ll get a lot of the visuals that we’ve often lost when we’re kind of jigging the bottom. Tommy (7m 6s): You know, when I got back from Alaska, Dave, I did a bunch of that strip leach stuff, you know, that was that string leach in the early nineties when I came back from, you know, Alaska, we would tie variations of it. We would put the barbells on it And we would jig it. We would put like a little zoo cougar on the trailer hook. Probably half the reason I had to get a new or had a rotator surgery was because of pulling those big bunny leches from the water. And it’s not that we, we didn’t always just get the, the hit deep, but when you’re using barbell eyes, you’re definitely begging from, you know, below the halfway point of the column versus, you know, most of these swim flies we’re using, none of these fish are really tickling under that halfway point of the column, unless maybe it’s sunny or the hole is ludicrous depth or, or something like that. Tommy (7m 53s): We’re very much front seat when that fly’s being considered and then, you know, ended. Dave (7m 59s): So. Right. Right. So you’re trying to get that fly. So let’s just say in general, but you’re trying, if that trout’s down there, you’ve got a brown trout, where are you trying to put that fly to entice him to take it? Tommy (8m 10s): I that, and there’s another good one too. You know, that proximity thing, you know, if I were fishing a grasshopper or a big golden stone fly when I’m coming upstream or, or even the long ball downstream from a boat, you’re trying to kind of present in such an area that you give the fish enough time to notice the pattern and then react to it. This without smashing on the head and scaring the shit outta him, which Dave will still work in super muddy water, but because he didn’t get scared because the water’s pure mud. So, you know, a lot of these, you know, like the four techniques I go with is a down swat, which is a true jerk bait style action where you’re kind of following the train of the line to the water and then you’re swatting through that to intensify that wedge to kinda not only dig in but dart through that dig and then swim out in that, in that kind of jab. Tommy (9m 1s): The straight strip is a pure walk, it’s a sales pitch for the middle of the, the presentation. When you’re walking through the middle, you kind of break that rhythm. So to indicate that the fish is not only moving, but moving erratically, which kind of triggers that. Oh, that fish may or may not be injured, you know, reflex in a truck. Really. That’s the, that’s the bottom line. I mean, if you can get those two pec fins to just make the left or the right in that consideration for you, it’s your fish to lose at that point. You know what I mean? Right. Once he breaks his hold, you know, it’s your job to finish that sales pitch. You know, it’s, and I like to, I really do like to kind of go back, you know, when I was a kid for one summer, I had this job selling Kirby vacuums. Tommy (9m 45s): Yes. And I think I was 16 or 17, I was trying to figure out how to pay for a truck that I probably shouldn’t have bought. Right. And I do remember there was a huge difference between getting in the door to do the shampoo demonstration with the Kirby and actually getting that client to sign the check, you know what I mean? Dave (10m 3s): Right. Like, you could get in the door, but to actually get them to sign what took a whole nother level, you Tommy (10m 7s): Gotta get the sale. Right. So, yeah. You know, and, and I, I go back to the zombie anglers that I see fishing streamers these days. Dave (10m 15s): They’re, they’re at the door, but they’re not making the sale. Tommy (10m 17s): Yeah, right. It’s not like they’re really, so, and I tell this to all my clients ’cause you can kind of see when we’re having a slower day or the bite’s off, sun’s out, water’s clear, whatever, you know, you can kind of see that that faith fade a bit, you know, that that want or that need to see something. And if they start looking at birds, you know, you might as well just start, you know, looking for your tip at the same time. Right. And I have found that when a client is fishing the bug as if it’s being followed by a fish, they essentially fish the bug better. It’s that belief or faith that I can’t give you out of my fly box. I can’t give you Dave (10m 54s): That. No, no. But they have it a little bit. They have it a little bit because they have like the, you know, the drunken disorderly your flies. They have the confidence of you too. You know, I mean that’s why the guide guide trip is so cool, but, and now are you seeing the fish, like how do you get to that point where you know no where it’s at, how far it is away? Yeah, Tommy (11m 9s): In most case in point, I would say, you know, with the boat, whenever you’re coming downstream, your need to throw distance is there, just because that fish is proximity awareness is, is upstream of them. They’re kind of looking up and out away from them. When I’m in my small water though, Dave, I will tell you, you can sneak right up, and I don’t wanna say you can pet ’em, but you can get pretty close in that, you know, that side view mirror without them on a streamer, I mean, we do it all the time with the dry flies, the golden stones, the hoppers, et cetera, et cetera. But to see a fish that’s in that state of relax or consideration for whatever might be coming down next, and then you tune him up with a, with a high action, the beauty of this, this whole crick or small water event when you’re on foot, is that when these fish are coming for you, that that tunnel vision, which is also developed from boat fishing or fishing downstream, but their proximity awareness to your legs because they’re looking that way, is far farther away. Tommy (12m 13s): So like those fish will often spook at 30, 40 feet if the water’s clear versus when you’re coming in that that blind spot on the rear that we’re talking, you know, 10 feet, 20 feet tops, I mean, you can, they don’t know you’re coming. So you get a front row seat to not just him taking the fly, but like from the word angst, like you hit the water, you add those two kind of suicide actions just to get that, that look or that consideration. Then you kill it and that sets off all kinds of alarms in that predator and then it starts moving again. And then at that point you can kind of see those fish break off. So yeah, there’s a lot of visual in there. There really is. Tommy (12m 54s): Yeah. Dave (12m 54s): So the small stuff and, and what is a small, like what would you designate a small stream versus a large stream? Tommy (12m 60s): Well, you know, when I get a day off, Dave, I really like to, I love going up into the cricks and really my prerequisite for choosing each body of water that I might go hike up in is what is the least likely area I expect somebody can cast in. Oh, right. And if you can get into those areas where, you know, basically as soon as it’s a bad cast, it’s in a tree. Those are areas that are not being heavily fished. I mean, let’s face it, the pure Marquette, the skirt is up. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s not, and I’m not saying the pure Marquette still doesn’t fish. Well, I, I, we had a four fish over 20 day there less than two weeks ago with two steelhead bonus mixed in there too. Tommy (13m 40s): But on the same, I will tell you that the level of critique needed to get that done from the average Joe, just because I’ve seen how those fish consider and, and don’t kind of suicide take versus, you know, it’s like when you go down to Argentina or, or Alaska rainbows or basically those shortened growing seasons and the lack of fishing pressure over as many months allows that fish to get less savvy. Whereas on the pure Marquette, you know, there’s, there isn’t a week that isn’t fished five days of by the general population of people. So the year round element of pressure resides in these areas that I’m not complaining too. We have 12 months of fishing here in Michigan. I mean, we can catch crop that’s pretty good 12 months of the year. Tommy (14m 21s): And that’s, that comes with a tax though. And that tax is that fish awareness. Dave (15m 15s): A few of the things you said, I think four things I was calling ’em the suicide actions you put on the fly, but talk about those. So the down swat, you mentioned the string strip or talk about the rest of those. Tommy (15m 28s): So, you know, the straight strip, like I do have somewhat of a system that kind of plugs in just about everywhere. Dave (15m 35s): Okay. Tommy (15m 36s): So like if, if you come down any body of water, you can say that there’s, there’s two types of fish that are in your realm of, of potential on each cast. One is the suicide fish and the other is the would be predator. The suicide fish is that fish that’s sitting right off of a structure right next to the bank, lying and waiting. Like you could throw a shoe at that fish and he might hit that too. The suicide fish, basically all he needs is proof of life. And so when that bug hits the water, I’ll give it a double down swat, which doesn’t gain a ton of traction so much as just puts a very quick walk action plus a little recovery in the Eddie, you know, adjacent to whatever it is I’m throwing at. Tommy (16m 16s): And I let it pause. In that pause, Dave, what I’ll do is I’ll allow that sync tip to achieve. So not only do I give it time, Dave, I will give it slack. Slack is the only way to actually, you know, use a sink tip versus buy one. You know, everybody wants to throw the sink tip and then they wait a second and then the sink tip swings through the current, but it doesn’t really sink as much as it swings. In order to make that sink tip swing, you’ve gotta sink it by basically slackening the line in one of two ways. Either you just outright land, shake out some lines, so not just the front of the sink tip sinks, but also the back end of the sink tip. And I can tell you, you can count on one hand how many people I’ve, I haven’t had to tell that to over 30 years of doing sink tip guiding versus everybody that buys a lot of sync tips. Tommy (17m 4s): But they throw it over there and they just assume, well, it’s a sync tip, so it’s going down. Right? That’s not, there’s a difference between buying one and using one. So in that pause, what I’ll do is I’ll let that sync a little bit in either two ways. Either I’ll shake out that line or I’ll reach directly at the fly to create that amount of slack for a quicker, maybe not as potent of a sink in that death. The suicide fish that’s lying and wading off of the wall has its proof of life. It has a just dead fish mind you, a just dead fish is a better bite trigger than an injured fish. And this is why, right? The injured fish has to be still chased. The just dead fish is fresh and it’s free. Tommy (17m 45s): They just have to go up. It’s like drive through McDonald’s. It’s easy. Yeah. So after that pause and re-sync of the line. So first there’s that initial traction, a little action, a strong pause, and then through the middle I’ll break it up into a couple of variations depending on the topography of the water that’s, you know, between me and that flock. A straight strip is pretty universal. It’ll cover that middle, middle depth and that extra depth as long as the finger is open during the strip, per strip slack allowed, allows the fly not only to regrab sink tip depth, but it also allows that fly to recover four ways to your one versus keeping your finger taunt to the strip line, in which case you have a constant tension on a wedge head that is supposed to be able to move around. Tommy (18m 34s): If that tension is not relaxed to a swim fly. A swim fly is not allowed to swim, it is allowed to only pull color and pulling color is what zombies do, right? You can bird watch while you do the same thing. But after that midpoint of that presentation where I’m kind of burning that center, I always slow down. So the middle part of it is the fastest part of the present. And that’s the tip over what I call the would be predator. The would be predator is that fish that is, you know, usually likely on the draw going down into the deep, sitting out on some bland, shallow wading and surfing through whatever materials coming down. And that fish maybe not in a state of predation given the opportunity will tip into that predation. Tommy (19m 18s): No different than that, that suicide fish right on the wall or structure. I do believe that that sales pitch slowing down and continuing its depth until the last area where you would bring it up through the depth to, you know, start considering a new cast is one of the most under recognized potentials in the streamer ca and I, you know, it’s like you go over to Mayo Dam here below, below Mayo Dam here on the ble, and you’ll see these guys are throwing all these great lakes deceivers or variations of it or you know, whatever, and they’re going down the river. And the guy in the middle is, you almost wonder if they think those oars are cosmetic, Dave. I mean, those things are supposed to be used in such a way to give you always fish your front, you know, the guy in the back is cleanup, he’s the new angle, he is maybe the, the second chance at a fish we did not see that was moving on the guy in the whatever. Tommy (20m 12s): But the guy in the front who’s always being fished by the guy in the middle. And if he’s really good, the guy in the middle, he can start getting that second guy time so that both of the guys are getting prime cast per attempt on tail water. Some of these casts are 70 to 90 feet typically. Mm. Wow. And you’re, you’re doing about the same process where you’re doing a heavy action right out of the gate. A huge kill to allow that sink tip to achieve and then you’re burning that middle. The third technique that I like to use, especially when I’m, you know, if you’re on a tail water and you’re fishing that kind of shallow to deep as they’re known for, which is the bank depth is not that of what’s out in the middle. Tommy (20m 54s): This lift, wiggle, shaking of the fly line on a lifting momentum with the rod in a slower way is just, I mean, you gotta do it to kind of see what the bug’s doing, but it gets very crank baby. Essentially what happens when you have a wedge and you’ve allowed the sink tube to achieve just enough depth as you lift the line. I mean, anybody that’s fish drunk and disorderly knows that, you know, as soon as you go to pull that fly from the water, it’s always smart to make sure that the bug is already out of the water. Because if you don’t, the wedge wants to grab that water as you lift it. And if you realize that, that that wedge is grabbing so much water and not utilize it on a shallow, which is to say this, if I’m trying to fish a shallow or medium bar and I go into that whole sinking of the fly line dictation where, where I want to get a big U in my sink tip to have my floating or neutrally buoyant bug be pulled down to those depths, that doesn’t really play in an area where I don’t need the depth so much as I need a strong action. Tommy (21m 58s): So in that fleeting response, the flatter a piece of water becomes the more we get into the burn. And there’s two ways to do it. There’s the two-handed salt water burn, which I am a huge fan of on big tail waters, especially with a triple, A triple and a jolted two-handed retrieve with a couple of injury breakups in the middle is just ruthless. I mean, it’ll get the biggest fish to, if nothing else, at least consider. And some of the fish that we moved when we were doing these practices with 40 plus air flows, these are lines that we let go, we’re using leaders for sink tips, which is absurd to say 12 feet, but it was necessary to take the bow tension off of that fly head when you’re throwing 110 feet and 80 of that sink tip in the water. Tommy (22m 47s): If you don’t take off some of that bow tension by lessening that diameter of line to the head of the fly, your swim fly is kind of muted by the constant draw of that water tension on the fly line. Does this make sense? Yeah. So that lift wiggle became a great way to keep the sink tip from ditching so to speak. If you, if you were to let it go down, it would go into the shallow and your fly would either be running into the rocks or having no action at all. ’cause you’re just hung up in something. So as soon as you throw this thing 90 feet and allow for just a second of sync with that, you would lift the rod and shake the line abruptly left to right in such a way that that shocking of line would grab the wedge and fast darted ruthless crank beatty looking action. Tommy (23m 32s): And I’ve always struggled to kind of get the fish to take in that, but I could always switch after I noticed the fish came to that, that apparatus of, of presentation. And then you could go back into one of your standard straight, straight strip a down swat, you know, a slow down and then you could finish off that fish. And that was, that was always key. Now, when we got into the two-handed approaches, it seemed like the only way to kind of seal the deal was either pick up the speed or the fish just reacted to one of the jolts versus the rhythmatic way that we would bring like a salt water fly. We are still trying to break this up into a, a jerk bait slash crank bait, like look to it as it moves through that top third of the column. Tommy (24m 15s): And no, I don’t think you need the bottom of the river for, you know, I, I, I fished enough lead when I was a kid to know that these fish are moving upwards of a couple yards for these flies. The idea that I need to rub my nose off the rocks to get him to give me audience, I think is a, a little bit of a re and god willing, my shoulder just loves me for throwing little flies I can throw for three, four days straight, eight, nine hours a day and never screw up my shoulder. But as soon as I start throwing lead, not only am I gonna up my shoulder a little bit, but I’m also gonna probably up my rod the first, pardon my french there, Dave. I’m kind of right. You know, if that lead hits that rod doing any type of that’s, you know, you’re 150 bucks, Dave (24m 54s): You’re done. So what you’re saying is, and we’ll talk more about the, the d and d and some of the fly design stuff, but these four things you talked about in there, which is amazing, the down swat, the straight strip, the lift, wiggle, and then like the burn and what do you call those? Do you call what the four, do you have a, what do you call those four things? Tommy (25m 10s): I don’t know. That’s kind of the procedure. And you know, I would say that it is always up to the angler to identify that the water that he’s about to come through does need a prescribed, you know, the, the PM is not a tailwater. So we have these holes that go from 10 feet to ankle deep in two or three steps. Right? And it’s not to say you don’t have that in ledges and whatnot and the tail waters, but typically a tailwater run graduates, its over a period of time versus having some sandbar boil lifting out down to the, to the river bottom where the next two steps are a sand deposit from 10 years. You know what I mean? So yeah, it’s, you have to be able to use all the arrows in your quiver or you’re, you know, like I said, if you’re fishing these flies correctly, it becomes harder and harder for the fish to say no. Tommy (25m 59s): I’m not saying they’re all gonna say yes, but if you move the fly a certain way, you know, that guy that fishes the rappel every day has, for 20 years, 20 years he’s been fishing that number 13 black and gold rappel. You ask him tomorrow what he is gonna use, guess what? Using a black and gold number 13 propell, it’s not so much what you’re using so much as how you’re using it. Anytime you can enhance those actions, you’re definitely getting that favor to you. But yeah, yeah, I think people don’t fish with enough agenda. They, they try and pull color through the water and they beg and they, they plead for some kind of audience. And instead of changing that presentation or, or consideration for the, the fish in this water temperature or that to fi they changed their fly. Tommy (26m 41s): And I’ll tell you something right now, you’re never, never gonna get any confidence in anything. If you’re changing your fricking fly all the time, how can you believe it’s gonna be hit if you wanna change it, if it doesn’t work in 15 cast, you can’t, you can’t Dave (26m 55s): Do it. That is the worst. Tommy (26m 56s): I don’t like changing flies. Do I have a few colors that I’ll rotate over the course of the day? Yes. But I still, I, I don’t believe that the color of starburst in the bag for those fish matters as much as that it looks like a Starburst square and that it moved like a Starburst square. Dave (27m 14s): Right. And it feels like a starburst, Tommy (27m 16s): You’re trying to get that to where you’re hitting his instinctual responses as much as you’re trying to match some fricking, you know, these guys that are, you know, they’re all about, oh, I want to get this particular color or this kind of effect. And mind you, I, I tie a lot of flies, so I’m all into it. I’m, you know, this is all coffee and donuts for us. I love it. But I would also say that the idea of engineering movement is far better than any consideration of this new material. Does this make sense? You know what I mean? Dave (27m 48s): Yeah, yeah. So what you’re saying is the, the action that you’re putting on the fly with the rod and everything is as important as how you’re making the fly. Tommy (27m 56s): I agree 100%. Dave (27m 58s): But your flies are like the, the drunken dis Let’s just go into that fly a little bit. Maybe we could start back there and talk about what are you fish in, maybe describe that fly, how you tie it, and then how you tie some of your other flies you’d have in your box for what we’re talking about here. Tommy (28m 11s): I have three or four gigantic boxes of all the stuff that I fish from strip leaches. There’s always a fan of a sex dungeon. I think the muddler minnow, by the way, in all variations and sizes is leaps and bounds one of the coolest flies ever created. Dave (28m 27s): Yeah. Is it still good? Do you still fish the muddler minnow? Tommy (28m 29s): Oh gosh, yes. Oh gosh, yes. No, I’ll, I’ll fish. I, I’m, so, I’m, as you know, I’m a crick fiend and there are special weeks of the year where I’ll dive into that brook trout rabbit hole. And if you’re not fishing a Turks and a muddler twice a day all day, you’re just, yeah. I mean, yeah, muddler are killer. I love a muddler for fry season here. You know, when our salmon fry come off, all those little minnows are just in the billions across our watershed. And I’ll sometimes run that tandem on of five weight for folks. And they, they really get off on being able to fish streamers on a nine foot five weight with a couple little minnow patterns. And you look 19 inches of spring fatness and that fish will walk you around on that five weight, like a, a big Newfoundland, you know, take, you know, it’s, it’s absurd to consider that we shouldn’t match the hatch. Tommy (29m 21s): In that case in point, that would be the salmon fly hatch. But during that same window, I have most of my clients that still want to throw, you know, versus the, you know, french fry. We, we have these Big Mac streamers and these fish that are already keyed up for any type of chase are looking to kind of really fill the void as they come out of that winter cold, you know, that post spawn need for calories, that excitement for the water temperatures rising, the incoming bug movement across the, I mean, there’s all kinds of things that are turning that brown trout on in the spring. And I just think that having that, that idea of what you wanna get out of everyday strain, I mean, everybody’s a little different. Tommy (30m 6s): You know, not everybody wants to throw a seven weight with a sink tip and, you know, walk the dog. Some of these folks just wanna show up and flick a couple of minnows around and get the rod bent and, you know, and that’s good enough. They don’t need the full, you know, the full fatman on him, you know? Dave (30m 22s): Right. Yeah. The full thing, which is the, is that the d and d, is that kind of the full fatman, the full Monte Montana? Tommy (30m 27s): Well, yeah, once you get into the, once you get into that, those finer, you know, when you’re fishing a couple of fry, it’s, it’s more of a gallop style presentation where you’re kind of lifting and pop lift and pop. It’s a short dart. You’re just trying to get that inch or two dart here and there just to indicate that, yes, I’m a minnow two, I might be in trouble three, come and get it, you know? Yeah. So, and, and that lift and jerk, which we used on the dungeons and the string leeches from Alaska and, and any variety of, of stuff that we used to fish that was leaded, we, that lift and pop is just naughty. But yeah, I mean that as soon as you start getting into swim, swim, that’s just a whole different religion. I’ll just, I mean, those are, those are definitely two chapters in the streamer book. Tommy (31m 9s): They’re not the same chapter. Dave (31m 10s): Right. Can you describe the more of those flies, like the d and d, how they’re, they’re tied in general, Tommy (31m 16s): You know, like Blaine’s game changer, you know? Yeah, he does. I mean, there are leaded variations of, of Blaine’s and there’s some, you know, keel waiting and whatnot. But if you look at his tail on those little game changers, the way that that do the little flicker, you know, that little tail, I mean, you can’t really, you can’t really do anything. I mean, that’s, fish sees that, and mind you, you should know, I struggle with the game changers a lot in Michigan only ’cause we have a little bit more flow. But in those areas where there are brown trout and the, the flow is low, that fly plays because you can get the wiggle and the wa a lot of the water I fish is kind of moving. So those game changers tend to straighten out a little bit, you know what I mean? Yep. Yeah. They don’t, but that feather game changer, they do with that grizzly, those guys up at Schultz tied ’em a whole bunch. Tommy (32m 2s): The, I think it’s actually called the Feather Game Changer. Oh yeah, yeah. Think you’re right. But the way that those little grizzly saddles kind of undulate in that uniform to, you know, head to tail. Oh, that’s just, that’s, you could just, that’s it. Yeah. That’s, that’s popcorn there. Yeah. That’s just fun to watch. But no, I kind of go the a different, when we get into these swim flies, even those great lakes deceivers, the swim flies kind of walk a, a little different path because of the either neutrality or float recovery in that, that design. So essentially you’re provoking an action that sets off four others on the, on the bug’s own steam, you know, where like if you were to hold the bug in the water, it’s moving for sure that wedge doesn’t let it cavitate. Tommy (32m 49s): But those flanks, the way they’re positioned is to kind of create that paper airplane movement under water. And yeah, I mean, that swim fly definitely has more of a wide glide jerk bait dig style present than say kind of a leechy looking up and down or even, you know, some of those basic fry patterns and stuff like that where there’s, there’s just not a lot of, you don’t need to do as much to make that dog walk, I guess, you know? Right, Dave (33m 18s): Right. Yeah, they’re simpler. So that’s it. So these are, so like the, the d and d is an example of a pretty detailed fly. I mean the, what you’re, what you’ve tied in that is a pretty like high level, is that what you say? Compared to everything else? It’s doing a lot more, Tommy (33m 31s): I would say that you can make a drunk do a couple more things than the average, you know, melted chicken there. Dave (33m 37s): Yeah. Right, right. Well, could you see where would be a good place to see that fly? Is there, are there any videos out there or, I know you’re, you know, Dan, Tommy (33m 44s): Dan White over at 1884 was just asking about that. He says, you know, this summer when the water clears up, we should go down somewhere slow where I can, he is getting kind of, I think he’s gonna get into some of this camera stuff too. I’m fascinated with all the fricking buttons on those cameras. I don’t even want to go into that rabbit hole. I know. So I’m not gonna, I’m just gonna keep my head underwater and let Dan Daniel’s pretty techno like that. I am not, So yeah, Dave (34m 6s): It’s a lot. It’s a lot. Okay. So, but the point is, is that, yeah, we’re describing a little bit here on, on this and maybe let’s, I like the small stream stuff. Thinking about that, if we take it back to the small stream, are you fishing? Maybe talk about that again, what that looks like when you’re preparing to come up to that fish. Tommy (34m 22s): As much as I love fishing a streamer in that small water, and I do, I really do. Just ’cause you can have some, I mean, silly, I mean, I’m talking Dave 40 Browns to hand. Oh wow. No boat, no people, no nothing. I mean, there’s not so many places around that we still can say that, you know, I mean, I’m walking around, I, I live an hour to an hour and a half from, so Century Circle is a, a, a name of a buddy’s guide service and a nickname for the area in which I live in. If you’re standing in Baldwin proper, you are within 100 miles of 100 different trout streams. Oh, wow. Tommy (35m 2s): That’s absurd. You know what I mean? Now, given, I would say one third of those have some type of boat slash raft access. Right. And the other two thirds are hike water. And that water has been utilized tremendously by our spin Ella worm fishermen for millennials. Dave (35m 22s): So there’s lots of, there’s lots of gear fishermen out there. Yeah, Tommy (35m 25s): Yeah. I mean, all I’m trying to do is kind of bridge that gap just a little. ’cause what they had was a naive fish. Now remember when I came up on the pier, Marquette trout fishing was about as popular as, you know, know, like, you know, water skating on, I mean, everybody came here for the salmon and the steelhead and the occasional hex hatch right outside of that trout fishing on the west side of Michigan was a, a very limited, there was definitely a crew of people on it, but it was nothing like the armies that would show up for the migratory. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So those fish back then, were semi naive too, these days. If you want naive fish, you have to go to that place where, you know, all the folks that got sent a pin or were mentioned something on this website or that all of that is a prerequisite to a person still being able to cast in a certain corridor. Tommy (36m 15s): If your cast isn’t, I mean, this is higher learning when you take a fly rod into tight water and then you’re trying to beg 40 foot cast in such a, an arena. I mean, and mind you, that 40 foot cast is not across the river. That’s straight up that river. Yeah. That’s got, you know, these, these rivers are, you know, 10 feet across in a lot of spots. You’re jumping over stumps to get the right angle. I mean it’s, it’s very four by four fishing, but the payoff, the candy day, oh, I mean the, you know, you can see the whites of his eyes when he is eating it. I mean, I’ve had three, like if the water gets dirty enough, I do not. I’ve had five or six fish in just a year bounce off my legs. Tommy (36m 56s): Oh wow. So they can’t find you because they, number one, they get, everybody knows what tunnel vision is from a drift boat. You’re on a drift boat, the fish sees it. They can’t see you. If there’s dirt in the water, he may come up to the side of the boat. But most browns, you know, looking upstream will usually spook at 25 to 40 feet, depending on clarity. When you’re fish in that crick, you’re picking that fight upstream, in which case the fish has to turn downstream. As long as you don’t move your legs, you’re just a fricking log in the water. And they don’t know that. So they’ll come right up to you. I mean, my leaders and, and my leader’s like seven feet for those little small waters, six maybe, which is absurd. People would say, why are you using such a long leader? Tommy (37m 36s): Get gets back to the same thing I was talking about before. If I’m fishing upstream, I have less bow tension on that fly line immediately. ’cause I’m throwing it up current and bringing it down to me. I can fish a five footer if I need to in such an arena. But anytime that I go for the longer cast, and I again, have that bow tension when I’m fishing the pier Marquette, I might be fishing like an eight foot liter with clients and I might go to nine personally if I’m in the lower middle. But usually you wanna have that lower diameter around that swim head so that when you give it that shock, that wedge engaging shock that that bug is allowed to first dive, but then recover with slack. Tommy (38m 17s): Without that slack. All you do have, it’s kind of just swinging at you at that point. It’s not really walking anymore, you know? Right. Dave (38m 25s): So, yeah. But let’s, and I wanna frame that because I love this. I’m getting the picture of fish in these small creeks, you’ve got, you know, tight 10 foot, there’s hanging vegetation, and so are you, are you mostly casting upstream towards the fish? Is that, is that what you’re describing there? Correct. Tommy (38m 40s): So the, basically the way this works out is as I’ve gotten older and, and maybe gotten rubbed the wrong way from a couple of the, you know, the new kids that don’t know what the word etiquette means, we’ve really learned to love sticking headphones in listening to cellos and violins and walking upstream until something starts to hurt. And it’s, it’s really limited by the, the amount of daylight that you have. But you’ll walk for, let’s say anywhere, depending on how quality the wa I mean, sometimes you get into a section that’s just got so much good water, so it, it takes you longer to cover it as you’re working up. Versus other areas where like you gotta walk two or 300 yards down some dumb ass sand or up some sandbar to get to the next good bend where there’s some dark water and structure. Tommy (39m 27s): So, you know, it’s anywhere from, I’d say two miles upstream to, you know, we’ve probably pulled off a couple of five mile upstream walks and then you basically walk back to your truck. Or if you’re lucky enough to have a buddy or something that day, you’d put a car up at the other one. I personally just, I just love hiking as I get older. And, and the beauty of it is, I can say that I fished personally last year no less than let’s say 50 days in the cricks. And I can’t count on one hand how many fishermen I saw. Right. Dave (39m 59s): That Tommy (39m 59s): Is awesome. So, and, and usually when you bump into somebody, it’s some, you know, old timer with a MEP zero, you know what I mean? That’s looking for his two fish to put in the, you know what I mean? And that’s just fine. I mean, I, I’d rather that than, you know, the idea of God, there’s only five boats in here and this is the least of all the launch, let’s go in there today. You know, and I’m not catching like 25 or, you know, I can’t say that anymore, but you’re not catching 26, 27, 29 inch fish with any frequency. This is not like when I was in my twenties, we would go to these tailwaters where we would sometimes fish a day or two before we saw the one we were looking for. Whether or not he got it or not was irrelevant, but you would see those huge fish in those areas that are being, you know, competed by predators with pike and walleye. Tommy (40m 46s): And yes, there was also brown trout in those same bodies of water. And when you’re in there with pike and walleye that that brown trout’s gotta be of some kind of wonderful to kind of keep above that, I’m gonna get eaten size. Right, right. Which really encourages some of those brown trout and said watersheds to start being a predator earlier in life. And it’s encouraged here by our Michigan DNR, our Michigan department of natural restocking, or where you wanna look at that. Yep. You know, these wild browns, they’ll come up and they’ll dump these rainbows out of these things and you can ask ’em directly, what are you doing? They say, we’re feeding the browns. Oh Dave (41m 21s): Wow. Tommy (41m 21s): And it’s true. I mean, these, these, I I don’t know if anybody’s ever seen a trout come out of a banner truck before, but they’re black as knight. I don’t know. Does anybody ever know that the they’re black, black as knight? You guys know what the photos strobe, you know, in their eye thing. You ever read up on that? Dave (41m 38s): No. Uhuh. Tommy (41m 39s): So the, a lot of trout have this involuntary response to the environment that they’re hunting or feeding in, and there’s a photo strobe that lines the eyeball and it’s, it’s goes directly to the brain to allow that fish’s, you know, narrative to kind of keep going. And that that photos strobe. If you’ve ever seen a, a brown trout kind of really light and color disappear across black rocks, they stick out like a golden trout. In the same respect, a wood dwelling trout, one under the bank comes out and he comes out onto a sandbar and he sticks out like a sore thumb too, right? Yep. This photo strobe lightens their hue, their entire fish color kind of lightens or darkens relative to this photo strobe. Dave (44m 34s): The smallest creeks is really interesting. Like you said, you’re, you’re making the argument for it, you know, the fact that Yeah, and I, I agree. No matter when you hike, you know, whether you’re in Colorado or wherever you are in the country, the world, the more you hike, the better chance you’re gonna get away from the crowds because things are busy nowadays. Right? And so indeed, so that’s what you’re saying it is. Like, do a little bit hiking, get on these small creeks. So once you get there, how do you know what the water? Is it just looking for some structure? How do you find the best places to find those fish? Tommy (45m 10s): Well, and, and I suppose that is the one bonus to crawling up into some of these, you know, hole in the wall type of fisheries, is that, with that lack of fishing pressure and then the overall quality of the river, we all understand that structure relative to the width of river, dictates how many trout can use that body. Correct. So if you’re in a tailwater that has two big log jams on either side of the river, there’s still a whole lot of in the middle that’s just rocky and bland, right? Yep. When you go up into these cricks, especially in the Midwest here, I mean, it just gets like Dr. Seuss’s bad dream ugly wood, like the undercuts go up under there and you know, you just, you don’t wanna stick your hand under, you don’t know what’s under there. Tommy (45m 52s): And the, the trees and the tag elders and the way the tag elder bushes promote for like almost zero cast, like, I don’t know anybody that’s walked, you know, if you’re ever walking up with tag elders, you know, in both of your ear lobes, geez, trying to figure out how to come up with a cast. But the payoff is, is absurd. ’cause I, I can fully tell you that there is a difference between making a cast in the spot that looks like everybody made a cast in. Even if you’re in Arick versus a spot, nobody’d want that cast, right? You make that cast guess where the fish is? I mean it’s just, ’cause nobody’s done that. I haven’t seen that before. I’m gonna eat that. That goes back to these fish that are naive on top of which, when you have that much structure per inch of the river, now you’re just gonna bump up your counts. Tommy (46m 40s): And for a long time, Dave, I I just in the back of my head, I thought that those really extra large fish, you know, we’ll call it 25 and up, could not reside in such a small C creek like body. But I, I have been wrong about that. Dave (46m 58s): Okay, so these small creeks, 10 foot wide, you’re finding 25 inch fish or you can Tommy (47m 3s): I it that’s a rare bird and, and you know, half the time you find one you’re just trying to walk up through some mess and your foot’s kicking around under this or that and boom, he comes out in the sandbar just to flip you off and Right, he’s gone and just, you know, but sometimes you get lucky, like last year I personally broke as far as stream non lake enhanced. We have a couple of situations here in Michigan where they’re not lake run per se, but they’re not exactly stream resident. Oh right. They’re kind of in that middle ground and those are all asterisk fish. But as far as four stream residents that I caught at or over the two, four mark, two of those, or rather three of those better than 25 this year, which is good. Tommy (47m 46s): Two of those fish we’re in water where you never made a cast without looking at all four corners of you. You know what I mean? It is tight. The sales pitch is short, it has to be devastatingly potent. Dave (48m 1s): What was the sales pitch on those? On, on one of those big ones? So Tommy (48m 4s): When you’re throwing upstream, number one, you have to remember that the wedge of that drunk is based upon some type of water current grabbing it from a boat’s downstream. And you don’t really get away from that when you get into the crick ’cause you still need that grab of current to get the walk of the dog even in the downstream fashion. The way to use that is that that bow tension, so if I’m fishing directly upstream, I would fish directly upstream to the right or just to the left to create a u in the sink tip. Essentially I make the cast, you drop the sink tip in the water and allow the current to grab it so that you foul that entry of sink tip from the rod tip to the water and do whatever sales pitch you can on that angle as the bug comes down and beside and then below and then up to you. Tommy (48m 52s): Oh, right. But I mean, again, the visual, I mean, at the long spot, the bug is, is passing you 10 feet away. So if somebody’s on it, you get to see it from there. If you’re lucky enough, you’re walking up the crick and there’s just enough color that you can make the shadows out on the bars and whatnot, and you can set that prescribed cast, like you said, like where you get the from the go kind of thing, versus being surprised by his, his trailing. Right. If you’re not surprised by his trailing, well, I will tell you, as much as I like casting at the one that you can see on the barn, you can tip him into all that predation and watch him from the word go. I still get off on that surprise. Tommy (49m 33s): Oh, damn there. You know what I mean? Oh, right. You know, I love weren’t even expecting that Jack in the Box event of having that fish come from nowhere, then he is all over you. He wants to, you know, it, it is just, there’s so much, whether he gets it or not at that point, I mean the eye candy from that, that encounter, those are the stuff we put in the wallet. Dave, Dave (49m 52s): This is perfect. So, I mean, I think that what you’re painting the picture here of is that, you know, yeah, you can site fishing, you might have some of that, but just being in a small creek, finding what you think is good structure in the stream, and some of these places are gonna be so small. You might just, you have one place to cast. You do what you said there, and then that fly is coming back down to you and you do the things we’ve talked about today to make it, give us some action. And that’s kind of what it takes to start to get a little bit of action with these things. Tommy (50m 15s): Yeah. And they’re, I will, it’s again, higher learning. I mean, if you get good at crick fishing with a streamer, I mean, and this coming from the guy that teaches moving boat, you know, etiquettes for all of this. You get good at Cricking while trying to add action to a fly that’s coming at you in the current. And then first off, even making the cast in such a corridor, I mean, there you are definitely getting, you know, the forces with you. Dave (50m 39s): Yeah. You’re high level. Is it harder to catch fish on a creek versus the, the, the bigger stuff? Tommy (50m 45s): There’s two ways to answer that question. One, it is terribly hard to learn how to fly fish and catch fish in a C creek. Okay. There is a, I mean, that learning curve basically says anytime you do it wrong, you have to either retie or get it out of the tree. So I would say if you’re a good caster, is it easier to catch big fish or in a tail water? Geez, I’m gonna have to go with the crick. It’s the fish per mile. It’s their unawareness. I mean, I know a lot of people have been fishing for five or 10 years, but I don’t know a great deal of people that have been deep into this for, you know, three or four decades. So if they knew what the fish used to feed like when I was a kid, they would reconfigure what their good day of fishing was in the same body of water in today’s terms. Tommy (51m 34s): So if you know those two differences and, and where we are as as a whole in fisheries and where we’re going, I don’t think, yeah. I mean, with a straight face, I can tell you those fish are more naive in the crick, but it comes with the toll of you got a cast in there, you know what I mean? Dave (51m 52s): Yeah, exactly. What about on the timing? We talked about it when this episode goes out. It’s probably gonna be late February, early March. What, when are you getting started on some of this, this trout stuff? Tommy (52m 1s): Well, I kind of go on the weather windows this time of year. I mean, I have four or five year-round trout only cricks that are kind of close to me. And I can always kind of engage those whenever, whenever the wind, I mean, I’m not saying that streamer fishing is better in the winter fish. I’m not saying that, but as a streamer fisherman, you always want that eat. You’ll do, you’ll put on the extra two layers just to go see it. You’ll get a little sweatier walking back to the truck and, and your fingers might get a wee bit cooler than they did say on a late may day. But, but you can still get it. So I’m not saying, you know, water temperature and streamer fishing really do, I mean, on the pier Marquette, because we switch from our brown trout right into our steelhead season, there’s always that overlap, right. Tommy (52m 47s): But that magical temperature where browns really start to kind of slow down. I will tell you that the post spun, you know, everybody wonders what the pros and cons to this window and that window are. You know, obviously, you know, the spring shark attack bite is probably the most prolific eat of streamer versus just, you know, eats per how many f like in the fall, you might move 40 or 50 fish with 30 of those being, you know, 10 to 14 inches and you know, a handful of ’em being worth talking about. Right? Yeah. And you only get four or five fish even out of the little ones to hand over the course of the day, because in the fall it’s a fending bite. It’s not a feeding bite. They’re trying to kind of weasel you out of their water. Tommy (53m 29s): They’re trying to, you know, covet that area, in which case they give it. And you can tell in the bite too, Dave, you’ve seen the, that bite on the fall. They just, they come up And we call it the fall ger, which is a friend of mine, Brad Turner, who’s working on the Missouri out there, and Craig now, or he’s outta Wolf Creek actually. But, but he, he called it the fall gerr because if you’ve ever seen a dog grab a chew toy, you know, when they grab that chew toy, oh, they’ll grab it, they’ll shake their head, right? Kind of g and and, and they don’t actually, you know, in the spring you see something totally d it’s like a full shark attack. You don’t actually see the fish come up and grab the tail so much as you’ll just see a flash and that fish turn around and t-bone the, the fla, that’s a feeding bite. Tommy (54m 10s): And the post spawn is a feeding bite. We refer to it as post spawn because it’s in the realm of them finishing spawning. But it’s far different than the pre spawn bite where you see that g and that that chew toy type fending bite. You know, in, in the late season when that water starts to cool off, all those little ones that we rolled in the fall are gone. It’s like you’d, where they’re just not in the river. It’s hard to move smaller fish as the water cools off. However, the brood stock fish, the fish that were the most active, the two primary spawning pears on the bed, these fish will pardon my French themselves to almost death. Wow. You know? Yeah. And that’s why they kind of get on this, this post spawn. Tommy (54m 52s): If I don’t eat something now, it’s gonna be 32 degrees and I won’t be able to chase anything. Right. And, and so you see fewer fish, but the quality, or I shouldn’t say quality, I should say the size of the overall fish coming to that fly in the post bond is bigger. The quality of the fish is somewhat this year, for some reason on the pm they’re all fat. I don’t fully understand why this year, however, most fish you catch in the post spawn in years past are either, you know, we call the, the hens, they’re kind of methed out. They’re all, you know, skinny and flat tired, and they kind of fight like wet towels and the bulls, they don’t look much better, but at least they’ve got the big head and the shoulder. Tommy (55m 34s): And, and, but you can tell they’ve, they’ve been going at it with their, their other male counterparts. But again, that commitment, you know, in that post bond through the, the winter, you don’t roll the numbers. You certainly don’t, you might roll a dozen a day, but of that dozen now in the post bond, seven or eight of those might’ve been in the 20 or better inch class. Gotcha. Dave (55m 54s): Okay. So each, each time has it. What about when you guys are tran, when does that brown, what trout vert to steelhead transition take place for you? Tommy (56m 1s): You know, year to year, it’s gonna vary based upon when winter shows up on West Michigan here. But typically our stream trout will start to, you know, that heavy spawn is usually right around Halloween. There’s a two, two and a half week period from about Halloween through about, I’d say the gun opener, which is the 15th of November, where like that fall ger that we talk about, it’s still somewhat there, but you can tell that the population of fish is in the act of spawning because your commitment just goes to s it’s just weak. Right. You know what I mean? Yep. And it’s usually coincides about the same time you see a couple of those browns on beds around the river is about the same time. Tommy (56m 43s): You’ll really lose that fall ger. And there’s a two and a half week period where you’re out there, you’re begging for whatever brown trout would give you an audience or possibly a steelhead that just came outta Lake Michigan. And we do a lot of that. I mean, that steelhead on Dave (56m 58s): Oh, you do? So you’re doing both. So like on the same trip you could catch a brown or a steelhead? Tommy (57m 1s): Oh, very. No, I’m setting up for that. And I can do that right up until about the end of November, about the end of November, the daytime he temps will let me or not let me engage that strip fly just because the ice in the guides, the, the fingers, you know, it starts getting a little too much for the, you know, the weekend warrior to come up and, you know, let their fingers go to without feeling before they turn around and say, do you got a hand warmer or so, you know, something like that. And Right. So we go to that swing fly, which is all two-handed and perfect too. ’cause about the same time that brown trout bite is really hard to key up on is about the same time the steelhead bite really starts to tip in. So we’ll get the two handers out, we’ll start swinging glitter, you know, a lot of enos intruder variations and, and really anything with, I mean, I’m not even sure how much it matters what you swing in front of ’em, as long as it’s got some disco and fight into it. Tommy (57m 53s): And, but yeah, they that, and the weird part is too, Dave, is over the course of the winter while you’re swinging for steelhead, sometimes deep in the winter, like February, you will pick up one of these post spawn fish that are taking a swung fly, which is against just about every grain in the book for brown trout. Oh wow. Save the fish that’s bordering on starvation, knowing it’s gotta get through the winter, you know? And, and you’ll see those fish die. I mean, you know, around the middle, later part of November, you’ll see those fish that didn’t stock up enough calories to go into their spawn. And again, they, they kill themselves in the act of getting it. What you No kidding. Not a bad way to go, Dave. Dave (58m 33s): Right? That’s true. They’re probably, yeah. They’re, they’re going for it. That’s the one thing the fish have on the some on it is they’re, they’re, they go hard. They go hard, they don’t mess around. They Tommy (58m 40s): Go hard. Dave (58m 41s): They don’t mess around. So, and then the steelhead, obviously we’ve talked tons of steelhead from all around. I don’t think we’ve talked as much. I mean, well we have talked pier Marquette, but talk about that. What is the, the steelhead run there? Is that, is that the wild one of those wild runs? Talk about a little bit. Tommy (58m 55s): Yeah. We, you know, there was this big study done by Great Lakes survey and you know, you wanna check probably my exact numbers, but I’ve memorized ’em enough to regurgitate a little bit. And they have found that basically if you catch a wild steelhead, which there are plenty of in anywhere attached to the Lake Michigan basin, that’s Illinois, Wisconsin, you know, up the entire west side of Michigan, 94%, are you ready for this? Blew my mind. 94% of every wild steel had caught out of the lake Michigan basin comes from the little manistee or the pier Marquette river. Oh wow. Blew my mind. Now, don’t get me wrong, there’s, there’s a half a dozen other rivers on the west side that are promoting some type of wild natural reproduction, which really gives me a, i I don’t want to turn into the corner of the tragedy of what we do to our fish or, or debt. Tommy (59m 46s): I mean, I haven’t taken money doing that tragedy, but as you know, here in Michigan, the big black eye on our fisheries is that we allow an army of would be poser fly fishermen to show up to our rivers for three months of the year to snag wild fish off their beds. And the guides and lodges around here encourage it. Save one, huh? Dave (1h 0m 5s): No kidding. Tommy (1h 0m 6s): Yeah. It’s really a bad, and I don’t want you to think I’m clean of it, Dave. I took money when I was a kid doing it, you know, nobody was telling me the wrongs and the rights and everything, but I Dave (1h 0m 14s): So this was in the, this is the springtime what you’re saying is the, the fish are spawning and there’s actually people catching spawners on the reds. Yeah. Tommy (1h 0m 21s): Oh wow. Like with this chunk of duck, you know, everybody thinks I’ve got such a, a heart on for the Euro guys. I really just don’t, I have this level line discussion with our, you know, possible lawmakers or chapter entities and all this. And the level line band would help get rid of the snagging and, and all that. And really what it would do is just help cope with the traffic of it. I mean, the tragedy in Michigan is, is I don’t know how serious the DNR would be about actually making snagging truly illegal in Michigan. ’cause right now we’ve got this like, where it’s, it’s illegal to snag in Michigan, yet we allow thousands of people to dress up like fishermen and fly fishermen, you know, rig up some variation of either yarn bear on a hook or, or just some fancy nymph that some lodge sold ’em for $2 just so that they can play either glorified mouth hockey with these fish off their beds or Oh, or outright snag ’em. Tommy (1h 1m 17s): Dave, I won’t lie to you. Yeah. What they do to the salmon here all wild again. Dave (1h 1m 21s): Oh, the salmon. Like what salmon are you talking about? The, the chinook or Tommy (1h 1m 24s): The Chinook salmon. Yeah. The coho actually here tend to eat really well. Like our cohost salmon are terribly ready to apply. I’ve caught ’em on the surface no less. Dave (1h 1m 33s): Oh, what And are the cohost salmon actually is doing this? Are they spawning in the wild too? Is Tommy (1h 1m 37s): It wild? Correct, yes. And for some reason that Pacific salmon is much like a silver or, or rather like a chum in that they don’t really, that fending bite for them is, is an actual closer to a feed than anything like sockeye. When I got in Alaska, sockeye don’t eat anything either. You snagged all them. They tasted really good ’cause they ate nothing but plankton. They had no teeth and Oh yeah, they tasted incredible. Which I guess in some ways made it okay to snag them when they were coming up the river. And, you know, they’re kicking on the bank and their filets are on the grill. I guess I can get there, I don’t know. But what we do here in Michigan is, is basically we sell a farce. These folks are promoting, you know, Michigan fly fishing for salmon and steelhead in the spring and fall, in which case they never learned fly fishing because they’re giving four monkey nuts in a mono running line to and say, chuck it out in front of those four black stripes in a foot of water. Tommy (1h 2m 32s): Right. And I’ve, I’ve heard of a lot of people that have written letters to, you know, Orvis and, and all these other different entities saying, you know, I’m not exactly sure what you’re endorsing out there, but it’s, it’s some shady and nobody really wants to talk about it, David. Dave (1h 2m 46s): No. Well, why couldn’t you, couldn’t you just close down when they’re spawning? Like close those areas off. So you say, Tommy (1h 2m 52s): So, and that’s one of the options that I would also be up for. And I’ve said, you know, what if, if we can’t, you know, clean up the regulations to kind of cope with this tragedy, maybe we should just close it like regular trout streams and, and I’m, I, I would be for anything that gets that black eye out of our rivers and, and, but the tragedy of that would be to say that we have to close down a blue ribbon section of trout stream because we cannot regulate Dave (1h 3m 20s): Our Oh, so that’s it. Yeah. So you’d have to close down. There’d be other implications. So the brown, so people wouldn’t be able Yeah, that would be tough to do because the browns are actually fishing. Yeah. They’re probably eating the eggs with those spawners. Right? Oh Tommy (1h 3m 30s): Gosh. The egg trip I used to be able, I can’t do it anymore just because of the amount of salmon fishermen that are in our rivers. You know, when I was a kid used to be able to stay in the upper river and egg brown trout behind those kings. And I mean, Dave, it was, you know, like 10 dozen fish in the 20 inch class in a day. I mean, just dumb good. I mean, they were drunk on caviar. Right. And it was disgust. But now you can’t, because now because the army is so big, instead of having that lower river concentration of fishermen all the way till the end of September, like years past, if somebody even says they saw salmon in the flies only section, now you’ve got some amount of Johnny Colemans, you know, spending the night in these big holes. Tommy (1h 4m 15s): And then as soon as two or three of ’em get up on gravel, which is really the best time, the the beginning is the Browns will eventually get over fattened on the caviar, you know, come second week of October, you’ll see a couple of ’em out there. But they’re like, when you catch ’em, Dave, they’re burping eggs all over the world. Right. I mean, they’re just, it’s disgusting. And the way we used to really just, I mean, very visual too. I mean, you could see like five or six browns behind each one of these salmon beds, and you’d have a nine foot five weight rigged up with basically the very lightest amount of shot that you like, like one bb you know, type of thing. And then you’d run like two very small eggs. Tommy (1h 4m 55s): And the trick was that, that I found as I got deeper into that game before I was basically shoved out by this goen army, was you would make the glow bugs basically on the smallest hook you could. So that when you went to go fish through or just behind the kings, that the hooks wouldn’t trip the kings and they would still get behind them. Yeah. You know, it’s, it was very, very similar to what we did in Alaska. Yeah. And, you know, for the rainbows behind the, the salmon. But it was, it was just really, I mean, you could do some bad, you could really get some dumb numbers of fish and now we can’t even fish it. Dave (1h 5m 31s): Oh, you can’t fish it. Yeah. Tommy (1h 5m 32s): Because that army of fishermen now is up in the top of the river by the second week of September. You know what I mean? So yeah, you’re, you’re limited to maybe a week in that first week if you’re lucky. You know, I mean, I, I usually stop my mouthing in there now before Labor Day because there’s already people in the top of the river system, not the bottom, in the top of the river system looking. Remember that army of salmon fishermen was X big. Right now it’s like four times X Dave (1h 6m 1s): Big. Oh, it’s way bigger. Tommy (1h 6m 2s): So you know that that kind of spill off as it moves up. River has basically washed me out of a lot of those that said the rivers for trout in Michigan don’t actually close until the last last day in September. Right. So now I’m able to get up into these sections of river the cricks as it were, and get away from the, the guys that are trying to land 20 and 25 pounds salmon, which can’t really be done if you get cricky enough. So if you crawl up into those cricks, not only will you get a fantastic late hopper bite, but anytime you come across one of these beds, there’s 20 browns like it used to be back in the day. You know what I mean? Yeah. Tommy (1h 6m 42s): And you can, you can ting ’em all off and it’s creepy how bad they want it, Dave. I mean it’s, yeah. It’s like patch fishing without the blinders on, you know? Dave (1h 6m 51s): Yeah, yeah. Gosh. So, so things are definitely changed. So things have changed over the last 20 years. There’s, there’s more pressure, there’s more people. And so you just, you’ve changed your tactics it sounds like a little bit. You still fish the pier Marquette though? Oh Tommy (1h 7m 2s): Yeah. No, that’s, it’s across the street here. Yeah, Dave (1h 7m 4s): Yeah, that’s right there. You’re still doing that. So that’s, that’s, and then what we’re talking about here is these guys that you know and who doesn’t want to catch a, a salmon for the food Right. For the table. Sure. You know, but that’s, that’s what’s going on. Guys are out there wanting to catch a steelhead Tommy (1h 7m 15s): Or a salmon table. Oh no, no. I wish it was. Yeah. I, I really wish it was Dave. These guys are living in some kind of, you know, little fantasy land. They, they buy all their, their gear, they’re sims this, and they’re winced in that and they’re, you know, they dress up to the nines and all their fly fishing attire and then they go out there and they snag fish and Oh Dave (1h 7m 34s): Really? Oh, so this is a different thing. This isn’t the guy just trying to like, put food on the table Tommy (1h 7m 38s): For the kids. I’ve more coose for the guy that’s down there in the bottom of the river snagging with a spider so he can put three on a stringer and take it home and eat it. Then the guy that dresses up in all this Halloween costume dressed like a fly fishermen to go out there and impale fish with flies. It’s not fish. Dave (1h 7m 54s): Yeah. So that fisherman, that’s interesting. ’cause that’s the fisherman that’s got plenty of money. So it’s really not about putting food on the table, it’s more about catching maybe a first fish, maybe their new to. They Tommy (1h 8m 2s): Just want that hero shot to go shoulder all their buddies at the office is Dave (1h 8m 6s): All the hero shot. Right. Wow. It, it is interesting because I think we all go in phases in fly fishing. You know, you start out wherever you are, you know, you Right. You haven’t caught a steelhead and you want to catch a steelhead. I mean, think of that, right? The person who’s never caught one, that’s a challenge. We’ve, I talked to ’em, you know, occasionally through the podcast that that’s like, and then, but once they get their fish, they start evolving. Right. And then they maybe start to get into swinging from, you Tommy (1h 8m 28s): Know, whatever. Right. But it’s also up to the stewards to kind of set that tone as a guide. If I take you out there and show you how to snag fish off their bed, you know, without them eating a fly, I have shown you nothing. Dave (1h 8m 40s): Why? So that’s the other thing. So now we factor in, you got that, but then you actually have guides and lodges that are showing that are like promoting this, Tommy (1h 8m 46s): Oh, this, this is their main Dave, I I can tell you there’s two entities in town here that would not be in business. I mean, bar none. Like this isn’t even up for debate. Right. If they shut down snagging fish with fly rods in the flies, only of the pier Marquette, there would be two lodges and probably 15 guides. That would be Dave (1h 9m 6s): No kidding doing Tommy (1h 9m 7s): Vinyl siding or, or plumbing or Right. You know, it, it certainly wouldn’t be fishing. I’ll give you a for instance. The one of our local lodges endorsed up the wazoo, yada, yada, yada. I haven’t seen a fly rod in their boats this fall. They have spinning and pin rods with beads. Oh yeah. So, and this is supposedly a fly shot. This isn’t like an all gear thing. This isn’t kind of like a mix. This is a fly shop endorsed by a fly outfitter. Huh. And these folks will get in the boat on a fly fishing trip and you will not find a fly rod or reel in that boat. Dave (1h 9m 46s): No kidding. Tommy (1h 9m 46s): You will not fish an egg fly, you will fish a pegged bead. You know why? Because none of these guides should be guides. They don’t have the ability to teach anybody because their only claim to fame is taking hero shots with fish kinked off the gravel with, again, mono runners. If you don’t know how to fly fish and you’re a fly fishing guide that runs it, you kind of hit a wall on, on what you’re, you’re able to accomplish. And it shows, it really shows. So. Dave (1h 10m 16s): Right. It’s interesting. Yeah. These, I mean the, I think this is the extreme conversation because we’ve had the talk about euro nymphing versus just regular fly fishing and you know, is it fly fishing because you’re not, are you casting, you know, and that always comes back to it like you have to be casting, Tommy (1h 10m 29s): Well, you know, Euro nymphing is the, well, it’s a terribly effective way to catch a fish on a fly. And it’s a terrible way to learn how to fly fish. I’m not saying that the guys in pa are, are not doing some, you know, very needed presentation for their descrip pocket water and making it work for the masses and whatnot. Here in Michigan though, we’ve kind of diluted our euro nipping and it’s giving our chuck and duckers a base for religion. Oh. Because now because there is euro nipping, now they’ve almost self justified what they’re doing on the beds. And it shows also here in Michigan, ’cause in pa I noticed most of those guys are actually looking for a bite. Tommy (1h 11m 9s): And most of the guys here in Michigan are too. However, I will tell you that at the end of a Michigan Euro nfer drift, there’s this weird twitch, this lifting, probing, I don’t know what you wanna call that. But at the end of their drift, they’re plucking and ripping. And I asked them, did you get a bite? And they said no. And I go, well why did you set the hook? Well, just in case. Just in case. What? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And what that is is in Michigan is them snagging at the end of their drift. Oh Dave (1h 11m 41s): Wow. Tommy (1h 11m 41s): It’s this probing lift where they never got a bite, but they wanna make sure they couldn’t come up with something on the end anyways. You know, fly fishing is supposed to be hard. Yeah, it is. You know, this isn’t supposed to be easy. And anytime we’re trying to gray that line, dumb it down, oversimplify it for the sake of numbers, you oughta just get a night crawler and a spinning rod and get it. Dave (1h 12m 4s): That’s right. You Tommy (1h 12m 5s): Know, once you’re there, why, why go anywhere else? Dave (1h 12m 8s): Which is fine, right. If you wanna do the night curl and spin rod, like in some situations, that’s great. Tommy (1h 12m 12s): That’ll lot fish my nims every day of the week, you know. Dave (1h 12m 15s): Exactly. But, but that’s not fly fishing, that’s Tommy (1h 12m 17s): Not word. That’s not fly. And no, nobody gets into fly fishing because they, they want the easy, they want the sport and you’re not gonna, you know what the thing about spin fishing is, it’s terribly effective also if it’s not working, it’s like watching paint dry. Do you know what I mean? Right. Yeah. You know, with fly fishing, I’ve always said fly fishing is the improvement of in between those windows of potential. Where a fly guy can show up to the river with the best bite in the world. But if he doesn’t have the skills, he’ll do nothing with it. You know, it’s probably half the reason I don’t like fish and leaded streamers anymore. You know, I, I do, I believe that fishing right off the bottom was something big, hairy, ugly, couldn’t work maybe Sure, sure could. Tommy (1h 12m 58s): But, but then I couldn’t see it. And if I set the hook on something that I wasn’t sure was a fish before I did, you know, I just, I think there’s parts of that sport I lose by going there. And the, there’s a, a gray, maybe even thinner line between that and fishing and pat’s rubber legs off the bottom than there is on what I’m doing. I mean, I, I think the line between me and a jerk bait as far closer than me and a nymph when I’m fishing the swim fly. Dave (1h 13m 24s): Yeah. The jerk bait. Who is the, you mentioned dahlberg, I think just briefly, the Dahlberg and Dahlberg Dalberg Tommy (1h 13m 30s): Is the, the fishies man on the Planet Dave (1h 13m 32s): Barn. Yeah. Do the Dahlberg diver, is that, who are some of those, who are some of those more, I know Larry kind of does a lot of different stuff, but who are some of those gear type more, not the fly guys, but the guys that you’ve learned from that have been big influences? Tommy (1h 13m 44s): Oh, I, I wish I, I could come up with like some bass master or, you know, I, I mean I was, you know, when I was a kid I had a hat signed by Babe Winkleman shook his hand, watched all the bill dance and rolling Martin videos I could muster. That was when it was like the only fishing shows to speak of. Dave (1h 13m 59s): Oh yeah. Roll. Right. Tommy (1h 14m 0s): And I would say my biggest influences John Kessner, there’s a, a fellow here in Michigan, he doesn’t even fish that much anymore. And I had a pretty good cast when I met the man, but he really oversimplified it down to some core values. I’m not even sure if he knew how to tell people how so much as if you watch somebody do something enough, you can see pros and cons in, in all of the maneuvers that and the old timer with the rappels man, jeez. Beats, you know, I mean these guys, I mean they tell you so much about, you know, everything in fly fishing we’re doing is some direct knock of something in conventional, you know, Ming under a indicator is float fishing with a night crawler or a spawn bag and you know, streamer fishing is to, you know, rappels and spinners, even swinging flies for steal it. Tommy (1h 14m 49s): Is that a back trolling hot and tots and wiggle warts and wiggle Dave (1h 14m 52s): Warts and spoons and stuff like that? Tommy (1h 14m 54s): Yeah, I mean, you know, save dry fly, everything we’re doing is trying to knock. So, you know, I gotta tell you, there’s only a couple of guys that I fish with these days if I do fish with somebody and both of those guys happen to be spin guys. And the reason is, is I believe I’ve hit my head on the Western Michigan ceiling of what I’m gonna be able to, you know, draw from this. It is just, there’s not a lot of people that are in my situation, they have to spend three months of the year snagging fish off beds, which gives a man like me a lot of time to figure out some other shit in some other places. Yeah. But those spin guys, man, you watch those guys work plastic through the water. Dave (1h 15m 33s): Oh, they’re good. Tommy (1h 15m 33s): I mean, it’s not that they’re good. It’s, those baits are good. And if you watch those baits enough, those baits kind of give up some, some tells that those brown trout have, you know, the, the way it moved, the way it turned, he fished that piece of water. I mean, certain things like there’s a scenario where we fish in these really shallow sandy, some of our rivers have sandy bottoms and there’d be these trees that are laying half in and half out of the water. And the depression of water in front and behind that was only a foot up and a foot down. There was no hole per se. And the way these fish would use these things made known to me by these crank base. Tommy (1h 16m 14s): I mean there’s only so much I can do with a fly by comparison to what they can flip into and get quick actions. Oh yeah. But to see some of the places that they were getting their origin of, of chase from started turning some lights on in my head. You know what mean? It just makes you look at the, the fly game differently, even though again, we’re trying to mimic that conventional approach in some way as it is a more potent one as a general rule. Dave (1h 16m 39s): Yeah, definitely. And I was thinking, and I can’t remember the connection ’cause we’re, we’re, you know, Schultz is just across the state, right? Like down there out of Yep. Kind of Detroit. What’s your, there’s obviously Kelly Gallup and stuff. What’s your connection to the other guys out there? Tommy (1h 16m 53s): I always like the, the Schultz crew just because, you know, you get these trout guys that all want to go fishing with Tommy and they think that, oh, ’cause they’re in the boat with Tommy, they’re just gonna catch a two footer within the next 20 minutes. Right. I wish people knew how many freaking hours we spend in between those, you know, and, and so with Schulze’s crew, it was always nice because whenever parts of their, their client base would make it up here, they were always small mouth broken, you know what I mean? These guys were already in tune with throwing something that wasn’t a Adams, you know? Yeah, right, right. Dave (1h 17m 24s): They’re Tommy (1h 17m 25s): So, you know, you get this guy who’s been fishing 20 years with hatch flies for trout and in, in his own right as a master of that entity. But you ask him to throw big chicken and, and it’s just like hunting with Ray Charles. It’s, It’s tricky. So if, if you get guys that are kind of cut with a similar cloth, that being a big fly, you know, higher grainage lines, even bigger rods for that matter for the query, it’s easier to kind of build that bridge between the two warm and, and cold water, you know, targets. But you know, Kelly, when Kelly was back in Michigan, I did a few salmon and steelhead trips when he was still back in town. And I do remember I bought a really nice sage rod from him when he had the troutman up there and I think Oh right. Tommy (1h 18m 10s): Probably the last time I was ever up there. I, I think, Dave (1h 18m 12s): Oh, that’s right. So Kelly had a, was he, did he have a shop or that’s where he started, right? Was Michigan. Tommy (1h 18m 16s): Yeah, Kelly was here in Michigan guiding at first, then he bought the troutman shop up there in, in Traverse City, did a really good thing for those trout fisheries up there and, and that he brought that brown trout out a little bit more than it I, I suppose had been up there. I mean, he really got into the trout fishing. He started doing some of the, you know, the non-migratory tail waters and, and you know, he, he kind of dove into the rabbit hole. Obviously Mark ti was a big influence on us all back here when Mark ti I talked to him just the other night. Oh really? Yeah, he’s, I he’s gonna write a book here too. You should be looking out for that. Oh, awesome. Dave (1h 18m 54s): I haven’t talked to him yet. That might be a good guy to follow up with. Yeah, Tommy (1h 18m 56s): You should talk with Mark. He is pretty much a striper East coast guy, but he’s got his that’s great foot and plenty of that, you know, that trout stuff. He, he gets around, he was probably the first person I’m aware of or really anybody’s gonna be aware of that was throwing the really big down there in Arkansas. And I’m talking like, you know, late eighties, early nineties. This is, this is back before it was a thing And it was, it was a thing for those guys. He was, he was as much or more into the night fishing then, and even probably even more so now, just because the streamer bite is kind of, I don’t wanna say it’s dwindling on the white, but the fish are certainly savvy now that there’s, you know, 25 boats a day throwing chicken at ’em. Dave (1h 19m 39s): Right. We’re actually heading down to the white down there, I think later this fall. And I think we’re not going to really be focused on streamers, we’re gonna be focused on whatever, you know, just to have a good time. Tommy (1h 19m 48s): Yeah. We’ll take a spay rod and a beetlejuice with you that’ll, that’ll turn all the lights on for you, even though it’s dark out. Okay. Dave (1h 19m 55s): All right. Good, good. Let’s take it outta here real quick with our random segment here. And I want, I want to go back to the, at the start, I love you were talking about vacuums the sales of vacuum And we were talking about getting in the door, making an analogy between that and fishing. But what was that like? So do you remember that pretty well? So you get in the door, what was your sales pitch? How the ones that made the sale, how were you, how were you doing that? Do you remember that pretty well? Tommy (1h 20m 18s): You know, you could say there’s presentation points in both. I think the excitement, you know, if you got excitement in your presentation is Yeah. Dave (1h 20m 26s): Like they know, they know you have a good product. Yeah. Tommy (1h 20m 28s): There’s life there, you know, and that’s the same thing with a good streamer. If you sell that, if you sell that excitement, that life that it just, it pulls ’em out of whatever dead sit that they may or na may not be in or the fence. And you know, sometimes people just tell you to get the hell out. And there’s plenty of that in the brown trout world too. You know, they just turn, look at just say nice chicken and you know, swim away. Dave (1h 20m 49s): Exactly. Well isn’t that what I mean, that’s the funny thing is that fishing at sail, that’s what it is. It’s like outta 10, you know, you’re gonna probably get nine that say no. Oh, Tommy (1h 20m 59s): That flies always just the hook around the boulevard. You gotta get in the car man. You gotta get in the car. Yeah. You can’t just talk at ’em through the window. You gotta get in the car. You know that I, I really do believe with more and more people fishing these days, you know, I, I know that I’ve had to modify even with the drunk a more, I don’t wanna call it strict, but definitely abiding by certain rules based upon, you know, this cast depth, that flow this time of year, et cetera. It’s, you’re trying to make educated guesses in almost like a, a match the hatch, you know, discipline, but you’re trying to do it in this creative mess of movement, not some exact dubbing and size of hook. Tommy (1h 21m 42s): Alright. So that discipline comes in, in your ability to sell that, that life, that excitement and, and make that fish just unable to ignore you. I mean, you know, at a certain point, brown trout, there’s only a small percentage and on those days where the bite’s good, there’s a higher percentage of would be predators. Before you put the boat in the water, they were set up to kill something. And then the rest of the time it’s all those fish that are on the, either the brink of being a predator, that is to say that they’re semi hungry and they take what they, they were offered if it looked right, et cetera. It’s your job to kind of dictate what, going back to Dalberg, there was this Pat Seaville guy he used to fish salt water with the two of them together were the, like a meeting of the mines. Tommy (1h 22m 29s): Anyways, this Pat Seaville guy was in the boat and I think they were thrown for either big GTS or, or little tuna, I can’t remember. They’re be using these big pop bugs, you know, those big loud, obnoxious rippers on Oh yeah. Anyways, they’re out there and this pat sea belt turns around and he says, you know, in those days when you know the bite is just that good and you’re using something and you have that confidence in something and your ability to stay with that, something kind of is, is the live and die of whether or not you’re gonna have any more action. And what he said was, was against that. He said, when you notice that you’re fishery, wherever that might be, you’re local too. When you notice that not only that they’re biting, but they’re, the bite is on, like it’s happening is to change around either some patterns or some presentation or colors or whatever. Tommy (1h 23m 18s): But that’s your, that’s your your your kind of test tube on those days. And what you’re trying to do is not just find out what’s working. ’cause on those days to some level, everything’s working, you know? Yeah. It’s to find out what stands out, what not only works, but what works better, what works exceptionally better. What what stood out on that day when I switched, you know, five or six different variations. Variations. So when I change flies, I typically change flies when the bite is just stupid good. And I’m not changing flies to really better my situation so much as to find out which one stands out. And then on those days where the bite is not on, I can take that knowledge that I got from that day and apply it to a day. Tommy (1h 24m 4s): And typically that bug that stood out that day when they were just snapping at barrel hooks is also the one that still works when they’re not, and I’m not saying it’s gonna work as good as it did the day the bite was creepy. When that barrel drops and flattens like that, you know, we, we never know what those fish are gonna do, especially if it drops twice and flattens those fish. Just go a and you’d swear bear hook works and then you’d show up the very next day when the barometric has gone straight up and leveled out over 30 points and you’d swear they need to plant the damn river. The same one that you slayed ’em in the day before. Yeah. So I think it’s, it’s that constant trial and error that make us all better fit. And I, I gotta say something as a whole to just everybody that’s getting their feet wet in this stuff is don’t deprive yourself from the meat on the bone. Tommy (1h 24m 51s): And the meat on the bone isn’t always knowing what works or reading what works or listening to what works or taking that knowledge somebody gives you so that you can apply that knowledge so that you might be productive in that event. I would tell you the meat on the bone in fly fishing is not knowing. Is not knowing and going out there and going through your own trial and error and when those lights come on because you did something right. Man, I gotta tell you, I think a lot of folks these days just they need to put down the, the OnX, which right, I’m guilty, I use it. I mean, myrick endeavors have gotten very frisky enough ever since I’ve known right. Tommy (1h 25m 33s): Where I can and cannot walk. But for the average guy that’s trying to get his, his real money’s worth out of fly fishing, it’s not the destination, it is the journey. And if you guys wanna know it all before you show up, you’re missing the meat on the bone. You really are. You wanna go out there and say, man, this looks kind of fishy. Or I don’t know anybody that’s fished here. It kind of looks trouty. And when you catch a trout out of a piece of water that nobody told you to go to that nobody said, ah, probably, probably nothing even in there, it’s a little, it’s a little small or I haven’t heard too many people fish in that this time of year, all that go there, be that guy that, you know, gets his lights turned on. Tommy (1h 26m 14s): ’cause that’s the, that’s the full cup of coffee here. That’s not that, you know that bland folger. Dave (1h 26m 20s): That’s right, that’s right. I’d love it. What are you a coffee drinker in the morning? Tommy (1h 26m 25s): You know, I, I’ve been known to slam some coffee, some of those monster iced teas. I, I’m a caffeine nicotine, you know, I abide, I try and bow to my addictions. Is is, Dave (1h 26m 34s): That’s right. Yeah. You got, you got it. I could. Yeah. That’s awesome. Nice. Well Tommy, this has been great. I think we will maybe leave it there until the next one. I think this has been awesome today. We’ve had another great conversation and you know, there’s always so much left on the table, you know, I think steelhead might be a, a thing and talk more. Pier Marquette. You Tommy (1h 26m 52s): Let me know, Dave. We’ll do Dave (1h 26m 53s): It. Awesome man. Well thanks for your time. We’ll send everybody out to the fish whisperer.com if they have questions or want to connect with you on trips and things like that. And yeah, thanks again for all your time. Tommy (1h 27m 2s): Well of you, Dave, Dave (1h 27m 4s): Your first call to action today is check in with Tommy, let him know you heard this podcast and, and let him know if you have questions. If you’re interested in one of his trips, check in with Tommy right now. If you get a chance, follow this show, apple Podcast, Spotify, click that plus button. Or if you’re on something else, check in with me. Let me know what you’re listening on today. I would love to hear that. All right, quick shout out the Togiak River Lodge. We just ended the giveaway and we’re gonna be announcing that winner actually tonight as we speak. You can go to check in with me if you wanna hear that. We’re gonna be live on Facebook, on YouTube, and maybe even on Instagram tonight. So if you’re interested in that and you’re catching this on the date this episode comes live, we’ll be live there for that. If it’s after that fact, we are gonna be selling a few spots to Togiak River Lodge, and this is gonna be focused on a number of species, but we’re gonna be heading up there for Chinook Spay fishing for Chinook on the fly. Dave (1h 27m 54s): Send me an email, dave@wetlyswing.com, put Chinook fishing in the subject line and I’ll follow up with you and let you know what we have for availability on this trip. It’s gonna be epic, Togiak River Lodge. And one shout out before we get outta here. The Laur zone is up next. Phil is back. He’s back baby. He’s back for another big episode. We all love the Littoral zone. Phil brings it every week and he is gonna have, I believe it’s Brian Chan, episode two two of the Best on One podcast, and it is gonna be Epic Littoral Zone podcast. All right, off to the next one. Hope you have a great morning, great afternoon, or great evening wherever you are in the world. And even if that is, if even that is up in Canada, maybe you’re up in Alberta and, and you’re up there in Alberta right now. Dave (1h 28m 40s): If you are, I’d love to hear from you. Check in with me, send me an email. If you’re hearing this right now, you’re from Alberta, dave@westlifeswing.com and just let me know Alberta in the subject line. I would love to hear that, that you heard this episode. Thanks again and I hope you have a great evening. We’ll talk to you soon. Outro (1h 28m 54s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly Swing.com.

Conclusion with Tommy Lynch on Streamer Fishing for Trout

Tommy Lynch shared a deep dive into streamer fishing, from reading trout behavior to making your flies move like real baitfish. Whether you’re targeting suicide fish or would-be predators, his four-step approach will help you fish smarter. If you want more insight from one of the best in the game, be sure to check out TheFishWhisperer.com. Now, grab your gear, hit the water, and put these tips to work!

723 | Guiding in the Catskills with John Francis – Trout Town Flies, New York Fly Fishing, Dry Fly Fishing

By

Dave

-

February 24, 2025

What makes the Catskills one of the most legendary fly fishing destinations in the US? With historic rivers like the East and West Branch of the Delaware, the Beaver Kill, and the Willowemoc, this region is the birthplace of American dry fly fishing—and it still offers some of the best trout waters in the country today.

Show Notes with John Francis. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

In this episode, John Francis of Trout Town Flies—local guide and new drift boat owner—takes us through the seasons of the Catskills, sharing his best strategies for winter nymphing, midge fishing, and adjusting your setup for cold-water trout. Plus, we’re diving into Bug Week, one of the most exciting times of the year for dry fly fishing, and how to time your trip for the best action. If you’ve ever wanted to fish the birthplace of American fly fishing, this is your chance to learn from a local. Let’s get into it!

Follow John on Instagram @johnscatskillguideservice

Visit their website at TroutTownFlies.com

Resources Noted in the Show

Guest & Other Links:

John Francis’ Guide Service – Trout Town Flies
Stealthcraft Boats
Project Healing Waters

Fishing Locations Mentioned:

Delaware River System
Beaver Kill & Willowemoc Rivers

Gear & Brands Mentioned:

Douglas Rods – Douglas Outdoors
Airflo Polyleaders – Airflo Fly Fishing

Events & Shows:

Fishing Apps & Mapping Tools:

Trout Routes

Related Episodes

666 | Fly Fishing the Catskills with Joe Rist – New York, Brown Trout, Dry Fly Fishing

WFS 379 – StealthCraft Boats with Mike Batcke – Driftboats, PowerDrifters, Rafts

Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript

Dave (2s): What is the most famous place you know of with more fly fishing history than any other in the country? The east and west branch of the Delaware the Beaver Kill. And many more of these streams in this area have some of the earliest days of dry fly fishing in the US We have a Catskills guide who is going to share some of his best tips on fishing the winter and beyond on some of these famous waters of New York. So you might have a little more knowledge to apply to your home waters this year. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going today? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid, grew up around a fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. Dave (48s): I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and guides than just about anyone out there. John Francis Trout Town Guide and new drift boat owner is gonna take us through the Catskills and the seasons throughout the year. You’re gonna get his best tips on fishing during the winter with Midges. We’re gonna get into some Midge activity today. You’re gonna find out how to fish your rig even during the colder months and how to change your style a little bit. And then we’re gonna build the perfect trip and the perfect time to hit the Catskills this year. Plus, you’re gonna find out what Bug Week is all about and when you should be thinking of taking advantage of this massive hatch in this area of the Catskills. Alright, here we go. The birthplace of modern fly fishing. Dave (1m 29s): John Francis from trout town flies.com. How you doing, John? John (1m 36s): I’m good. Dave (1m 37s): Good, good, good. Great to have you on here. We’re gonna be heading back into the Catskills, which is, you know, obviously a famous part of the country. Every time I have a episode on this area, it always gets me excited, you know, about it because I think just the history right of it is pretty amazing. And we’re gonna talk Trout Town flies. We had Joe Wrist on a podcast. We’ll have a link to that one as well. But how are things going? It’s cold out there, right? You guys hanging in there? John (2m 1s): Oh yeah, it’s freezing. You know, we’re not doing much fishing Right now, we’re just waiting for spring at this point. Dave (2m 6s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s, so it’s been a cold year, but, and Right now we’re kind of in the, you know, February, we’re getting into February. It’s gonna be March pretty soon. When does typical year for you guys in the Catskills, when are you typically getting going on, say some of your trips? John (2m 22s): Usually April, like right at the beginning of April, we, we start, that’s when the season starts as well. April 1st through October 15th. And that’s really when people start trickling into the shop and stuff like that. And they want to learn how to fly fish and stuff like that. But we do get some people that if the weather permits, they want to go out in February or March. Dave (2m 44s): Right. So you do, so if, if like somebody comes in and they’re, maybe there’s a, a little bit warmer weather, you would get out there and and do a trip in in like February, March? John (2m 53s): Absolutely. Dave (2m 54s): Okay, nice. And, but this year it’s been a little cold. What is the typical, if you take it to, you know, let’s just say it’s February, March, what are you guys typically fishing? What does that look like? And like talk a little bit about, first maybe talk about the areas that you’re at and then what you’d be fishing there John (3m 10s): During that time of year. I’m usually looking at the tail waters just because they’re, they’re more like regulated by the dam and you know, there’s probably less ice, especially up more near the dams. So I like to fish like right up as close to the dam as I can get on either the east or the west branch. And you know, it depends on how high the water is and stuff, but just a single nim for two Nims with a yarn indicator has, has done me well over the years. Dave (3m 40s): Okay. And and what are the typical nymphs you might be using under the indicator? John (3m 45s): Like a little pheasant tail or hairs, ear, even a zebra midge. I’ve had luck with red midges with gold wire. You know, I just, I try, sometimes I just get behind the vice and I throw some things together and I go try it as well and it, it does me good. Dave (4m 1s): Good. And is it the typical size range, kind of 18 to 24, is that typical for images out there? John (4m 7s): Yeah, sometimes you can get away like with a 16 on a curved hook, like a scud hook. But yeah, usually the smaller the better. I usually stick to 22 will be the smallest I go. Dave (4m 20s): Yeah, 22. John (4m 21s): Yeah. Okay. Just because those big fish, you know, it’s tough to get that little tiny hook stuck in their lip the right way. Right, Dave (4m 27s): Right, right. Yeah. So maybe 20 twos and that’s, I’ve heard some on that like maybe half of the feeding that trout are doing is on Midges throughout the winter. Do you find that that’s pretty common on Midges? Are there other insects, other hatches things you’re fishing John (4m 42s): Like the pheasant tail? You know, I feel like the nim, the NIMS live for a year or more under the water, so they’re readily available. You know, all it takes is for them to get dislodged so you can really fish whatever you want. But I’ve had luck in the winter, the smaller the better, you know, I use mostly jig hooks for my stuff and I found that a, I don’t get hung up on the bottom as much and I get way better hookup ratios. Dave (5m 8s): Okay. And is it jig hook? Would you fish so you could fish, like you said the zebra midge on a size 20 with a jig hook? John (5m 14s): Yeah, I usually do the 22 on the zebra midges for the jig hooks and then anything else like a 20 or 18 during the winter, Dave (5m 22s): 20 or 18. Nice. Well this is, this is a great start. We’re gonna get into this, I think talking more Midges talking about, you know, fishing on the Catskills. And we’ll probably get into a little more specific. So maybe before we get there, take us back real quick on your fly fishing. I wanna talk Trout town, but how did you first get into fly fishing, you know, and kind of what’s your first memory? John (5m 40s): So I’m 26 now, but I started tying when I was about six. My dad got me into it and everything. And then I think when I was about eight or nine, we were, we were camping up at Little Pond State Campground and I had, for years I’d just been practicing casting in the yard. Like my dad would put out a five gallon bucket and I’d go out there and we, I live right on the, I lived right on the Ramapo River. I could have went down there and practiced, but for some reason I just stayed in the yard and I wanted to get that, that little yarn piece in that bucket. And so we were at the state campground. I tell him that I’m gonna go practice my cast on the beach and he gives me, I tied a few wooly buggers and I gave ’em to him and he gave me one of ’em back and he said, just go cast this into the water. John (6m 25s): So I’m practicing my cast, practicing my cast. I ended up catching like an 18 inch brown trout, the first trout I ever caught on a fly rod in Oh wow. Pretty much right there. It was. I was pretty much hooked, you know, I was, I’ve been into it ever since. So my tying, I have all the tying stuff and everything, you know. Dave (6m 42s): Right. When did you connect with Trout Town? Because I think they’ve been there a while, right? Maybe talk about that. When did that come to be with Joe and all that stuff? John (6m 51s): So before Joe owned Trout Town, me and my dad used to go into Trout Town ’cause he used to take me to the Willow Wock as well when I was a kid. And we used to go in and see Dennis when it was Catskill flies and then some stuff happened. We didn’t get up to the Catskills very much over the next few years. And, and then my dad unfortunately got cancer and passed away and I moved back to New York to take care of my grandma and I was gung-ho like get to get back into fly fishing and all that stuff. And over six months, you know, I’m exploring the rivers on my own and I still had my, my own setup and everything. John (7m 31s): And I ended up just going back to Roscoe and, ’cause that’s where my dad always took me and I remember it as Catskill flies, but then I noticed Trout Town fly. So I started going in there talking to Joe and he was always the greatest guy in town to go get information or talk to or just, you know, walk in and have a great conversation about fishing. And over the time I was, I was a chef and I just hated being inside all day. Even during the summer in the hot kitchen, I just wanted to be outside. So I started talking to Joe about getting my guide license and you know, he encouraged me to do it and told me he’d give me a shot. John (8m 11s): So I went and got my guide license and we’re going on four years now. Wow. And I work, I work in the shop and we’re great friends. And I just did the New Jersey fly fishing show for Child Town Flies along with Butternut Grove, a campground that me and Joe both stay at as seasonals. So we had a great little community up in Roscoe. Dave (8m 31s): Wow. That’s cool. So how was the, so this was the, was this the Edison show? John (8m 36s): Yes sir. Dave (8m 37s): Yeah. How was that for you? Was that your first show or had you been to those shows before? John (8m 40s): That was my second time being to the Edison Show. It was my second show ever. So last year I did it for the first time. It was, it was cool. I booked a few trips, you know, it was kind of like a, my first time doing the thing, so I was kind of like getting a feeling for it this year. I lost, lost my Voice on Saturday. Yeah. You know, it was a, it was a busy weekend Right. And I helped clean up on Sunday. I actually brought home my new Drift boat as well. Dave (9m 6s): Oh no kidding. Yeah. John (9m 7s): From the show. So that was pretty cool. Dave (9m 9s): Oh wow. So was this something you were, you had already purchased? Yeah, John (9m 13s): This was something that I was planning to go get in March or February and then the owner of the company hit me up and he was like, I’ll bring it to the New Jersey show. And it saved me 12 hours of driving, so. Dave (9m 24s): Oh wow. And what was the boat you picked up? John (9m 27s): I got a stealth craft, big Horn skiff, stealth Dave (9m 29s): Craft, big Horn. Yeah. And Steal Craft is the pretty much the big company out on the east coast. Right. As far as drift boats. John (9m 36s): Yeah. We saw another drift boat there, it was like East Cape Boats and it was a carbon fiber boat, but Oh, okay. South Craft really has the, like they really customize your boat exactly how you want it. It’s pretty cool. Yeah, Dave (9m 49s): They do. And what was it, what was your, it was the self craft. What was the name of it? John (9m 53s): The Big Horn skiff. Dave (9m 54s): Oh yeah, the Big Horn. Yeah. Okay. Big Horn skiff. I’m just gonna plug this in. Take a look at it. So, so what did you, on that big horn skiff, did you do a lot of customizing or is it pretty standard on what you got? John (10m 5s): I actually did quite a bit of customizing. You know, a lot of ’em, there’s only ever the guy that built my boat was telling me there’s only ever been eight skiffs with the floor Anchor one. Mine was one of them. Dave (10m 17s): Okay. So you got the floor anchor? John (10m 18s): Yeah, I got a full pickles tray on one side and then a half tackle tray on the other side for easy access in and out, you know, and then I got a tie down cooler in the front seat. Dave (10m 29s): Oh sure. Yeah. Like a, like a Yeti type one of those cooler or whatever. Yep. With like seats. Is this, you got the padded seats or what does that look like? Is this all, John (10m 35s): Oh, I got the temper seats. They’re very, they’re nice. And then I also got the upgraded casting braces. ’cause stealth crafts, regular casting braces are nice, but they’re a little short. I got the ones that kind of buck out a little bit more and Okay. Are a little bit more stable. But one thing I did too was I’m gonna build a little platform to put right behind the false floor and ’cause we, the tr town flies and I know a guy, good friend named Nico, he does a lot of work with project healing waters and stuff like that. And so with the cooler I can take it out and I can actually put a platform behind the false floor and strap in a wheelchair. Oh nice. If, you know, if someone wanted to get out there and was having a hard time and stuff like that. Dave (11m 16s): Sure. That’s great. Nice stealth craft. I’ve never wrote a stealth craft, but I’ve heard lots about ’em and obviously they’re doing some great stuff. I know we had the, the founder on, in a episode a while back and he talked about, you know, the customization, you know what I mean? Like he was in trying to always do different things. He thought that that was a really important part of, you know, just the evolution of boats. So, so that’s cool. Yeah, it’s a sweet looking boat. We’ll put some links out in the show notes to that one. And now the drift boat, are you guys doing a mix of drift and foot or is that kind of like 50 50? Or how does that look throughout the year? John (11m 48s): Yeah, I mean we, through the shop and myself, we both do waiting trips and float trips. You know, it’s just whatever the client wants. Typically I like to do take beginners waiting first ’cause it’s just easier to work with them and teach ’em the cast and teach ’em how to mend and everything. ’cause they don’t have to row a boat at the same time. And you know, it’s just easier to learn standing in one spot than going down the river, I think. But you know, for some people they just want to get out in the boat and have a good ride and cast the rod a few of times. So that’s, that’s cool too. Dave (12m 19s): Yeah, that is cool. What are the, for the drift boats, what, what are the rivers you’re fishing typically with the boat? John (12m 25s): Yeah, typically we’re just on the Delaware, the east branch, the west branch and the, the main stem. Dave (12m 30s): Okay. Yeah. And these are, and remind me again on the, on the Delaware, are they both tailwaters or what do they have going there? John (12m 36s): Yeah, they’re both tail waters. They come out of the Pakan Reservoir and the Cannon Fill reservoir. Dave (12m 41s): Okay. So they’re both tailwaters and these are fairly, I guess obviously big enough to run a drift boat. What does it look like when you’re drifting down the river? What does your day look like? Is this something where you’re fishing outta the boat most day? Or are you getting out in and out? John (12m 53s): Some people are just like, you know, there’s, we tell people that sometimes they don’t even have to wear their waders, you know, that we just float down the river. Like on the West branch you can really do that, just float down the river and you can park the boat. The God will get out and walk it through a riffle and you can stay in the boat. But if you’re floating the east branch, it’s a little bit of a smaller river, a little tighter. And those spots you might have to get out and get around some spots. Or it might be smarter to get out and walk down a little bit and fish a hole before you row into it. But a typical day on the river is, you know, if it’s a full day you put in around 8 30, 9 o’clock, you know, depending on the time of year, we’re usually getting into fish pretty early, you know, and if it’s prime time, it can be an all day thing. John (13m 36s): Right. Dave (13m 37s): It can be. Okay. And we can talk more about some of the drifts and things like that, but, but let’s take it back on. So Joe, so basically yeah, you have this connection through your dad and through the family of that area, you come back and you’re kind of, it sounds like you’re, you’re all in on the fly fishing. Is that kinda, is that how it feels to you? How does it feel now that you’ve got four years in and, and looking back on the, the stuff you’re doing with the cooking and things like that? John (13m 60s): Oh, it feels like I don’t ever want to be back in a kitchen, you know? Yeah. Like having the river as an office is, is like the greatest feeling. One thing my dad always told me was, he said, if you do what you love, you’ll never work a day in your life. Mm. Yeah. And like Joe gives me a check for guiding or whatever and I’m surprised still, you know, I’m like, I can’t believe I get paid to do this. It’s awesome Dave (14m 21s): That, that’s John (14m 22s): Cool. So I see myself doing this for as long as possible. Dave (14m 25s): Nice. And is the Catskills, I mean, it is obviously probably maybe the most famous, definitely one of the most famous areas in the country. What is it to you? Why, why do you feel that out there? Like, do the history and stuff, do you know a little about the history? Is that something you’re, you’re kind of up on or does it just feel like a, you know, just any other river? John (14m 43s): No, I definitely feel the history because, you know, I’ve met Joan Wolf and you know, Tom Mason and a lot of Ed van put, you know, a lot of these people that are, some of ’em passed and you know, some of ’em still around and you know, the history is definitely there. You know, there’s, people talk about it all the time in the cats coast, you know, that’s, if you come fly fishing there, your guide is definitely gonna tell you a story or two about the old days, you know? Dave (15m 8s): Right. Yeah, exactly. And, and do you know some of those stories? How, how do you, when you have somebody on your trip, are you, are you talking about some of this since you’re a little bit younger or are you kind of creating your own stories? What, what does that look like? John (15m 21s): Oh, I, you know, I have some of my own stories about, you know, funny things that happened on the river and stuff. But you know, you know, I think Joe mentioned in the podcast about the train that Oh yeah. Broke down on the river and they had to put the trout in the river. Yeah. You know, I always tell that story ’cause I think that’s a great story. Yeah. It’s about the rainbow trout and everything like that. Dave (15m 40s): Yep. Right. That, that was the, the train crashing back in the, whatever it was, a hundred, 200 years ago or, or whatever a hundred years ago had had. Yeah. Rainbow were just dumped into what, what the The Delaware. John (15m 51s): Yeah. Right into the Delaware. Dave (15m 53s): Right. And now to this day, you still find, and that’s the reason why there are rainbows in the Delaware. John (15m 58s): Yeah. I mean, as far as we know, some places put rainbows in ponds and stuff and you know, during some floods, some of them may have gone into the system. But when you hook a rainbow in the Catskills, it’s not like hooking a rainbow out in Pennsylvania or New Jersey or something like that. Like it’s an affluent battle. Right. It’s really different. Like I go to Pulaski and I fish for steelhead every once in a while. And it really does feel like just a small steelhead. It’s a lot different than any other rainbow I’ve caught anywhere else. Dave (16m 32s): Trout Routes is the most comprehensive mapping app for trout anglers. With over 50,000 trout streams, 350,000 access points, public land maps and more Trout routes is the number one resource for navigating, researching and exploring trout streams. You can download trout routes for free in the app store today. 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Yeah, it’s interesting, the, the story I just heard another one from, we were doing a episode on the White River in Arkansas, and I didn’t realize this, but they stalked that the brown trout were stalked, you know, way back in the day as well, you know, and, and now it’s, you know, it’s taken time, but now it’s this amazing fishery, you know, that’s grown up and you know, and so there’s lots of these examples, case studies of, of great, you know, things that have happened over the years For you, let’s take it back into again that wintertime. Let’s just say it’s February kind of in late February into March and you’re out there in the river. Dave (17m 59s): Talk about that. Let, let’s just say it’s, it’s not too cold, you’re able to fish. What does that look like? Are you getting started early in the morning later? You know, first of all, where do you get started and what might you be fishing that time of year? John (18m 10s): So during that time, I’m gonna probably get to the river. As soon as that temperature starts to rise, you know, the air temperature starts to rise, that’s when I wanna be getting in the water and stuff like that. You know, I’m gonna start off fishing like the slow, the real slow, like right as from like, I wanna say like the middle of the pool up to the head of the pool, right in that slow water. And then work my way into the fast water. ’cause fish will still sit in the fast water even in the winter. But typically I’ll fish, you know, like 18 pheasant Taylor hares ear prince or something, something to get it down. And then a small zebra mini or even a smaller pheasant tail behind that. John (18m 52s): And then, you know, just, just depending on the depth of the water, you know, I get it within a foot or within six inches of the bottom if I can, if I know the river pretty well on the pool, I’m fishing and then, you know, throughout the day I don’t spend a whole day in one spot. You know, I’ll spend two, three hours really fish over an area and then I’ll move and then go to another spot. And if I’m lucky, I’ll get the three spots in one day. You know, I feel like winter fishing is really about moving around and stuff like that. You know, you wanna find where the fish are. If you find one fish there, it’s liable that there’s a few more there. Dave (19m 26s): Right, right, right. So if you get some action, that’s some positive reinforcement. So stay there, don’t leave necessarily right away. John (19m 32s): Yeah, I, I wanna, I mean I’ve caught like four or five fish right outta the same spot in the winter sometimes after all day of moving around, walking up, walking down, you know, and then you just find out where they’re holding for that moment. Dave (19m 46s): Right. When you come up to that pool, if you’re starting in the middle of the pool working up, where are you fishing? How do you know where the fish are holding in that pool? Are you looking for certain structure? What are you looking for? John (19m 57s): So I fish close to me and if the river’s clear, I look for weed beds on the bottom. I fish next to ’em, not over top of ’em, just ’cause the fish will sit right next to those weed beds. You know, large rocks. Put the nims right next to ’em around them both sides if you can. Sometimes if you see a current break behind the rock, you know, this fish will sit right behind the rocks during the winter ’cause it’s just an easy spot to sit. They don’t have to expend a lot of energy and as soon as something floats by they just swoop over and grab it. Found a lot of luck doing that. And then another big thing in the winter too is streamers, if you’re not having luck on nims, don’t be scared that the three or four inch streamer out there just on the, to the other bank, if it’s a small river and just twitch it back across, you know, like let it swing and just small little strips. John (20m 44s): I’ve caught some pretty nice winter fish doing that as well. Dave (20m 47s): Okay. Yeah, so, so, and you would be throwing on, what would be an example of a streamer you might fish in the winter? John (20m 54s): So I try a lot on my own, I guess you could call it like a, a ver a version of like a sex dungeon or something. But I use like laser dove for the head and I use a lot of arctic fox, but I kind of wrap the body like a wooly bugger with like Palmer, Sunil and stuff like that. But it’s got gray movement and they’re usually articulated, but I’ll cut the, the back hook off. Dave (21m 16s): Oh you do? Yeah, John (21m 17s): Just ’cause usually, you know, I’m not, I don’t want to kill any fish, so. Right. If they, if if I get a short strike, you know, I just, I let it sit and then I give it a few more twitches. If he comes back and, and eats it, I’m glad it’s not, you know, then no big deal. No big deal. Dave (21m 32s): Yeah. Right. And yeah, so that is on the articulates. You’ve got this hook at the very back. Do you find, I guess guys are fishing those, how are they avoiding hooking those fish deep with those flies? John (21m 42s): Well sometimes, usually when a trout, I’ve noticed when a trout eats a streamer, they hit it from the side, you know, so they won’t, like, sometimes, don’t get me wrong, they’ll come up from the back and just engulf the whole thing. And that’s usually when you have your tea hook problems. But most of the tryout, I feel like they, they like hit it from the side and if there is two hooks on it, you’ll get both hooks in the outside of the mouth. And then the problem I have is they’ll start spinning in the net and doing all this stuff and get all wrapped up and you know, their eyes start bulging outta their heads and I don’t like that. So it’s not good. I’ve noticed with the one hook, it keeps that back end like free. So you can kind of just like keep some tension on the line and if he starts to spin, you can just keep some tension and let the line spin and he won’t get all wrapped up and stuff like that. Dave (22m 31s): That’s great. Yeah, that’s good advice. I, I agree. I think, yeah, you got two hooks in there, it’s, it’s bad enough with one hook in a net, but yeah, you get two and it’s, it can be messy. Okay. So that’s a good tip on the streamers. And then, so when you’re ing talk about the, talk about the leader setup real quick. How does that look? You mentioned the strike indicator, talk about your terminal tackle end and all that stuff. John (22m 51s): So I like to use an airflow poly liter plus on my rods. It’s a, it’s like an, I call it an extension of your fly line down to a tbit ring. And then for my MPH rig I will, I’ll put like, let’s say depending on the river level, like anywhere from two to four feet, maybe even five feet to four x tie, a triple surgeons not probably down to five or five and a half x to my largest fly. And then I’ll put that little fly off the back of that. Gotcha. Right to the hook bend with about, with usually five and a half or six x fluorocarbon Dave (23m 29s): And like 18 inches, something like that. John (23m 31s): Yeah, usually like 12 to 18 inches, 12 Dave (23m 33s): To 18. Gotcha. So, and you might use a, maybe a bigger hook on your lead fly and then trailing off of that just a smaller, a merger or something like that, or another nip? John (23m 41s): Yeah, usually two nymphs. Dave (23m 43s): Two nymphs. Okay. You John (23m 44s): Know, because I like to fish the pools and stuff, but I feel like the deeper pools, slower moving pools is better for the streamer stuff. ’cause the fish don’t have, if you’re floating in nim through a pool that’s just super slow, they got forever to look at it and they might be hungry enough to where they eat it. But I like to fish like the heads with the nose because it’s kind of just moving a little bit faster and you know, they’re more inclined to just look up, see it and, and eat it in my eyes. Dave (24m 10s): Gotcha. Okay. And, and how would you maybe describe when you’re in that pool, talk about how you’re fishing? Are you casting for the most part upstream or talk about, you know, how you’re fishing the indicator? John (24m 20s): Well it really all depends on how the river is, you know, flowing in front of me if there’s current breaks or if there’s different seams and stuff like that. But typically I’ll be like at the head of a pool and there’ll be a back at you that I’m standing in or some of the sorts, something like that. And I wanna get those nms down. So I do cast almost on like a up, if the, all the water’s uniform and flowing the same, I’ll cast like on a upstream just a little bit, if across the river’s 12 o’clock I’ll probably cast at 11 or 10 30. And then I’ll just try to give a, a big man, get all that line behind my indicator and then I’m letting my nymph sink and I’m, I’m feeding my line out as it goes down. I’d probably let it get to about one o’clock, two o’clock and I let it swing just a little bit, kind of have gotten fish on the swing in the winter. John (25m 7s): And then after that I just put it back up and I start short obviously. And I work my way out. I’m not gonna cast across the river on my first jet. Right. Dave (25m 16s): How many feet, if you had a good water in front of you, how far away from you would you be casting? John (25m 21s): I would start right in front of me, like yeah, 10 feet, like yeah, 10 feet right in front of me and then work to 15 and then 20 and then work my way out. You know, I have caught fish right at my feet before. Dave (25m 34s): Right, okay. And you, and that’s why the indicator is pretty nice, right? Because it, it suspends the flies so you have weight, you know, if they’re getting down then you can just watch that indicator and it, it allows you to, like you said, make that big mend. Then they sink down. What is the weight, how are you getting ’em down? Are these like tungsten flies? Yeah, John (25m 54s): I use, I use beads on my, on my jake foot. Yeah. Dave (25m 57s): Yeah. So no split shot or anything? Just stunk beads. Yeah. Okay, gotcha. Okay. Yeah. And you’re, and you’re getting it down there and then as you’re drifting it, you were mentioned kinda 10 to, you know, 1:00 PM something like that or you know, in that range. Yeah, but I John (26m 10s): Mean, if you can get farther down, if you’re getting a good drift, you know, sometimes I’ll let it go down even farther. But you know, when you’re fishing straight down from you, it can be hard to set the hook ’cause the fish is facing you. I always tell people you wanna, especially like all my clients, you know, you got, if we’re in the boat, if we’re wade fishing anything you wanna set the hook except for a dry fly, then you wanna go straight up. But if you’re nipping, you wanna set the hook the way the water’s flowing, you want to go with the water. ’cause the fish is always, 90% of the time gonna be facing upstream when it eats your flies. You know, so you wanna pull that hook back into his face. You don’t want to pull upstream and pull it out of his mouth. Dave (26m 48s): Yep. Love that. Yeah. Set the hook the way the water’s flowing. So, and you typically set the hook. Where would your rod tip? Would it be lower or higher? Does that matter? John (26m 56s): I, you know, at an angle, you know, not straight up but not to the side, you know, just like at that perfect angle, like right in between there. Dave (27m 4s): Yeah, right in between. Okay. That’s awesome. So, so that’s another good tip. So setting the, the hook is big and then, and on the indicator you pretty much are just watching the indicator and as soon as that you see something that changes you, you’re setting the hook. Yeah. John (27m 17s): You know, if you’re, if you’re taking the bottom too much, that’s why I like the indicator too ’cause it’s very adjustable and if you’re taking the bottom too much, you know, you want your flies to drift just above the bottom. You don’t want ’em to be tick, tick, tick ’cause it does make noise and stuff. And when metal hits rocks, you know, I feel like that does scare away fish. So I always, you know, I don’t like to take bottom ever. I like to be just above. Dave (27m 39s): Yep. And how do you find that? Is that just a trial and error? Yeah, like if you didn’t know it. Yeah, John (27m 44s): If You don’t know the river, it’s just gonna be a trial and error. But if you know your pools and the flows and stuff like that, it can be, it can be pretty easy to just slap your leader and your rig together and you know, get out there and adjust it once or twice and be good to go. Dave (27m 59s): Okay, nice. So that is a little bit on your setup for fishing, you know, winter midges, you know, what are, as you get in, you said April things start getting what’s going on in April. Is that just the weather is changing typically and getting nicer out there, but talk about the transition from the winter into more of that spring kind of range? John (28m 16s): Yeah, so we’ll start, we’ll sometimes April can be pretty cold and we can still have snow. But typically like anytime, like toward the end of the month, even if it’s a cold winter, it can be, it will start getting those 50 degree days and then you know, the Quill Gordons and you get Hendricks ends and even some cat, even the midges will start hatching too. You’ll see them on the water. But typically your fishing for dry flies would be during the warmest part of the day. And, but then it opens up the morning and the evening more in the morning for the nim thing because those nims get active during the morning. They start moving to where they will, they want to hatch, you know, if they’re in the riffles they’re gonna move to the pools and stuff like that. John (28m 58s): And you know, that’s where the fish will start moving around as well. They won’t be so holed up in their winter lives. Dave (29m 4s): Right, right, right. Okay. And what are people, is there a hatch or a time of year that people are really, you’re hearing more people wanting to come, you know, to the Catskills for or a river, what would be the kind of the top river do you think you hear most requests for? John (29m 19s): That’s tough ’cause it’s like, it’s very based on the time of year, but it really starts with the Hendrickson hatch. Yeah. You know, Hendrickson. Yeah. There’s been times where I’ve been on the Willowy mock and it’s a literally a blanket hatch. Like you can cast your fly out there and you would not know which, which one is yours, you know, and the fish won’t. And it’s crazy ’cause the fish aren’t even eating them. You know, there could be a hundred thousand floating down the river and Right. You know, the fish will eat a Ann over the a hundred thousand hendricksons floating past them. Right. You know? Yeah. Dave (29m 51s): And the Hendrick, so that, that is, and what is that hedge typically? When does that usually start? John (29m 55s): So that’s usually in like April, depending, like last year we had a warm spring and stuff. We were seeing Quill Gordon’s in February, which was crazy. So like, and most of the hatches happened two weeks early last year. But with it being so cold this winter, if it stays like this and we get a cooler spring, I’d expect stuff to be more on time this year. Sometime in April. I can’t give you an exact week or date just based on the variables. But sometime in April, this is when the Hendrick sense will start. Dave (30m 24s): Okay. Well let’s, let’s take it to, let’s say somebody was calling Right now. They hadn’t ever been to the Catskills, they want to fish it. What are you, you know, if they don’t know anything about it, what, what are you telling them? Let’s just say I’m looking at, at doing a trip. What, what would you tell me? Or what questions would you ask? John (30m 39s): So, well, I’m gonna say, you know, like, are you looking for a half day or a full day? Yeah, Dave (30m 44s): Yeah. Let’s say we’re working for, let’s just say we’re looking for more of a, a few days. We’re gonna be out there for over like two or three days over the week. John (30m 53s): Okay. Over the week. Yeah. So I’m gonna tell you, I’m gonna tell you to come in late May. Dave (30m 58s): Okay. John (30m 59s): Because like late May, early June, there’s this week I call, I like to call it bug week. Yeah. And there’s just, there’s just like, everything’s hatching. You have all your big bugs, you have your blue Seds, your March Browns green, Drakes ISOs are starting. And it could just be a ton of fun, you know, just on big dries at, at big heads. You know, most of the fish are looking up and they’re eager to eat. It’s, it can be a blast all day long. Dave (31m 29s): Wow. That’s awesome. Yeah. Bug week. That’s perfect right there. So if John (31m 32s): You’re into dry fly fishing that Yeah. Dave (31m 34s): Dry fly, John (31m 34s): That would be the best time. Dave (31m 35s): Yeah, that’s right. We are, yeah, let’s, let’s say dry. So, so late May, early June. And hey, so let’s take it there. A typical, I know there’s lots of variation, but in your typical year, what might that look like? Are you getting started early then? Is it, is the heat is starting to hit then or is that a little bit later? John (31m 51s): It could be, it could be pretty warm around them. But like last year it was, it was pretty perfect. You know, it was like late last week of May, first week of June and you know, we had our cool mornings still and we had the warmer, the warmer afternoons to bring the hashes out and it, it was some great fishing I caught, I caught a lot of very nice fish in that last time last year. And my clients also put some great fish in the boat on the maid stem. I had a first time client out in the boat and they were two veterans and he put a 22 inch brown trout in the boat on a march ground Dave (32m 28s): On the surface? John (32m 29s): Yep. On the surface. On a march ground. Dave (32m 32s): And was this while you were drifting down the river? John (32m 34s): Yeah, we were on the main stem. Dave (32m 35s): The main stem, Delaware. And where does the main stem, Delaware. Where, where would you be without giving any secrets? I’m not sure if there’s any secrets out out there, but where would somebody be floating? You know, like what, what’s the range? Is there a town nearby? What would be the closest town? John (32m 48s): The mainstem really it starts in Hancock, New York. Yeah. So that’s where the East branch and the West branch meet. Okay. And then that right there, it kind of marks the start of the national park. Oh, okay. The upper, the upper Delaware Scenic and Recreational River. So it’s like a national park for like 60 miles down the river goes through Cal Coon, goes through Damascus all the way down to Port Durvis and stuff like that. But we typically, we typically fish the upper part, you know, down to Damascus for trout and stuff like that Dave (33m 20s): Down to Damascus. John (33m 21s): Yeah. And then, you know, once it gets hotter in the summer and stuff, there’s a lot of small mouth in the river that you can even get stripers walleye. You know, I’ve caught, I caught a pick roll on the main stem in in December. One year. Huh? Dave (33m 33s): A pick roll? John (33m 34s): Yeah, a pick roll. Dave (33m 36s): Wow. Fishing for trout. John (33m 37s): Fishing for trout. There Dave (33m 39s): You go. That’s pretty funny. Ice and, well John (33m 41s): I had just gotten a new boat. I was more floating down the river just to float down the river. But you know, we were throwing streamers for fun. Dave (33m 47s): Gotcha. And so the Delaware kind of from, yeah, from Hancock to Damascus, it kind of splits Pennsylvania and New York. Is that what it’s doing for the most part? John (33m 56s): Yeah, so it almost starts like right past hail et bridge where it becomes the pa New York border. So the west branch will be the pa New York border for a while and then till it gets down to the Delaware mainstem where the east branch comes in then, then the main stem is the border pretty much all the way down. Dave (34m 16s): Oh, okay. I see. Gotcha. And that’s the big water, so, so for the most part you’re floating from Hancock down with that. That’s, is that the main area you’re using your drift boat in? John (34m 25s): Yeah, I mean, well if the flows are good on the west branch, we’ll float the west branch. You know, if the east branch is tougher to float with drift boats just because of its size and the typical flows we have on it during the summer it can be pretty low in the riffles and stuff like that. Hard to, hard to get through. But in the spring, the east branch is very floatable. The west branch is usually floatable year round, except for Right now obviously. ’cause probably most of it’s frozen. But yeah, usually, usually the west branch and the mainstem are pretty floatable year round for bass trout. Dave (34m 58s): Oh right. John (34m 58s): Stuff like that. I know people on the lower Delaware do walleye in the early summer too. We get a lot of shad in the mainstem. Dave (35m 6s): Oh, shad, right? John (35m 7s): Yeah. A lot of shad. And it’s funny too ’cause it’ll come up and eat a dry fly. Dave (35m 11s): No kidding. Yeah. John (35m 13s): Wow. Dave (35m 14s): Yeah. So you got, yeah, you have a mixture. It’s a Delaware right? It’s, it, it’s a huge river that flows through all the way. I mean, I’m not sure how many, how many miles, but Right. All the way out to the, to the ocean. Yeah. John (35m 25s): I mean, I don’t want to be wrong, but I’d guess like 150 or more miles. You know, it’s a long river. Dave (35m 32s): Yeah. And is it a big river up near Hancock where it comes together, the confluence? Is that, how big is that? Or like width wise, would you say? John (35m 41s): I could, I’d say like right where it comes together, probably like 50, 60, maybe 70 yards, you Dave (35m 48s): Knows. Oh, 70 yards. Yeah. Yeah. So John (35m 49s): Yeah, it’s pretty wide. Like the first, the first hole, we call it Bard Parker or Junction Pool. And it’s a deep pool. It’s, it could be 15, 20 feet deep and you know, it’s probably 200, 300 yards long. It’s pretty, it’s a pretty long pool. Most of the pools and on the main stem are like that. It’ll be a very long deep pool. And then you’ll get to a riffle section or a little braid section and then it’ll just be ahead to a long deep pool again. And you have that pretty much the whole way down. Dave (36m 23s): Oh, it is. So not, not a lot of riffles, just all lots of pools. Good pool habitat. John (36m 27s): Yeah. Yeah. But the, the riffles can be, some of the riffles are fairly long and you have a good run right before the pool and those are very, very good spots to fish during the summer. Dave (36m 37s): Okay. Yeah. And, and are you seeing more drift boats out there? Or is that always, have there always been boats out there floating? John (36m 44s): There’s always been boats out there. I’d, I’d say last year though, the main sim got pretty warm and it was, it was tough to fish for trout. So the main sim got pretty con, or not the main sim. The west branch got pretty congested for a little while. But you know, everyone out there is pretty nice. You know, we all for for the most part know each other and we’re all respectful. We give each other space and you know, we all have a good time out there, you know. Right, Dave (37m 9s): Right. Yeah. No reason to to battle it out right. With the other anglers. Yeah. John (37m 14s): Yeah. No, I have no problems with anyone out there. 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It’s time to experience eastern Idaho for yourself and support this podcast at the same time. So that’s kinda some of the Delaware. And then if you’re doing a walk and Wade, where are some of those rivers you guys are hitting more? More of? John (38m 21s): So more of the walk And Wades will, so like the Beaver Kill and the Will of Ock, we’ll do a ton of that in the spring. Mm. But once the water gets warmer, we’ll walk and wait on the East Branch a lot. The West Branch even not so much the main stem because it’s just such a big river. I have done it a few times just for clients that wanted to go weed fish in the main stem. But you know, it’s a, it’s a big river. It’s tough to wade it, you know? Right. Dave (38m 48s): Not easy. What is the, the Beaver Kill versus the Willowy mock? Are they similar at all or a lot different? John (38m 54s): So they’re similar to each other in the fact that they’re free stones, meaning that they flow outta the mountains based on rainfall and stuff like that. The Willowy Muck is a bit smaller in size and has less, I’d say less water. But they’re both great rivers. They’re both like similar structured rivers, you know, as in riffs and pools and stuff like that. The Upper beaver coal can be a ton of fun to fish. Like behind the Roscoe motel and up to the bridge and stuff like that. You have some chances to get some pretty decent sized fish too, out of some pretty small water, you know, ’cause all of it connects to the Delaware and some of the stuff I’ve read about how the trout in the Delaware migrate is pretty fascinating. John (39m 38s): You know, how far they travel to spawn and you know, sometimes they’ll find a fish in the beaver kill and then they’ll find it in the east branch later on. It’s pretty cool how far they go and stuff like that. So Dave (39m 50s): These are the brown tr and rainbows. John (39m 52s): Yeah, the rainbows travel really far. You know, like during the spring and summer you’ll catch big rainbows in the main stem in the East Branch and then up on the upper Beaver hill, like for example at the Beaver Hill State Campground or Covered Bridge, you know, during the fall and stuff you might not see one rainbow, but then you, you go fishing there in the spring and you’re catching these 1820 inch rainbows ’cause they ran all the way up there to Spawn. Dave (40m 18s): Yep. Right. Wow. And you mentioned, you mentioned the the Bug week. So would the Willowy Mock be a river that you could hit in late May, early June into June that, would that be Bug week there as well? John (40m 28s): Yeah, so with the Tailwaters it’s a little different too because of the temperature of the water. Like it’s not like the Free Stones, the Free Stones will be a lot more fluctuation in temperature. So there’s, it is still bug week. You know, you might not get, it might be more localized to like areas like you might get good March Browns on like the lower half of the Willow E Ock and stuff like that. And in different parts of the Beaver Kill, but it might not be like as prolific as the lower half of the West Branch might see a crazy hatch for like a few days in a row. And then on the Wellow e mock you might get one or two good days of a hatch and then it might peter out pretty quickly. Dave (41m 9s): Right. Pretty quick. Okay. And so, so if we were coming there in late May, early June, let’s just say the last week in May, what would be the first, if we had a few days to fish, would we mix it up on a, a little bit or start on the Tailwater? What would be a good program to do there? John (41m 25s): So first off, I would go to Trout Town and ask Joe what’s been happening in the area and stuff like that. Because you know, know it’s different every year, but if I’m just basing it on, last year the West Branch was pretty insane for the hatches and the upper Mainstone was, was on fire. I had just started doing my float trips last year. So I was on the boat a ton in the beginning of the year. But the times I did Fish, the Beaver Kill and the Willowy Mock, it was pretty good fishing. But the Tailwaters is always my favorite spot. Dave (41m 59s): Okay. So the tail water’s just more, more kind of reliable, like you said, that you know, they’re more consistent for the most part. Yeah. Okay. So it’d be good to start off in, I could see a maybe day one you’re starting off in the West branch, maybe float and you, and you would be floating it. You could float the West branch. John (42m 16s): Yeah, you can float the West branch. Personally, if I’m fishing by myself, I like waiting, you know? Yeah. Just ’cause you know, you really get to pick apart the pool. You know, you float through a pool in 30 minutes and then You don’t see it again. But if you’re standing at a pool for an hour and a half, two hours, you might see that big fish pop his head up or, or something happening. You’re like, that’s where I want to be. So personally, I like waiting more, but it is fun to hop in the boat and go down the river with friends and you know, catch a few fish here and there and you know, just have a good time. But if I’m by myself, Dave (42m 47s): You’re waiting. You’re waiting. Yeah. How do you choose between, you know, whether you’re gonna be on the boat that day or foot? Does it just depend on who the client is? John (42m 55s): Yeah, it depends on what the clients wanna do. Sometimes if the water’s really high and stuff like that and they have a wade trip booked, you know, I’ll just compensate and be like, Hey listen, same price you want to go out on the boat today, I think it’d be a bit better and we’ll do that, you know? Dave (43m 11s): Yep. Right. So mix it up depending on the, on the conditions there. Okay. And then the be, so the Willow Ock is a, is that now, is that a trip to the East branch? John (43m 19s): That’s a tributary to the Beaver Hill. So there’s actually another junction pool and it’s in Roscoe and that’s a famous pool they call it. It’s famous for the two-headed trout. ’cause they say, they say a trout traveled all the way up to beaver kill and couldn’t decide whether to go up the beaver kill or up the willow eima. So it grew two heads. Dave (43m 39s): Right. And so that’s the beaver kill. So the beaver kill and then that flows into what? What does the beaver kill flow into? John (43m 45s): The beaver kill flows into the east branch down at what we call jaws. And it, it has a beautiful eagle viewing site there with a nice gazebo and there’s always eagles up in the trees there. Dave (43m 55s): Oh, okay. Yeah. Gotcha. So Willowy mock into, and then at Roscoe, that’s is at the beaver kill flowing through there. John (44m 2s): Yeah, that’s the beaver kill and the willowy mock meeting. Dave (44m 4s): Oh, meeting, okay, gotcha. John (44m 5s): Yeah, right in Roscoe. And then that forms the lower beaver kill, which what we call it. And then that flows to the east branch and that forms the Lower East branch. And that goes to the Mainstone. Dave (44m 15s): Oh yeah, that’s right. And then it’s okay. Right. So there’s a lot. So you mentioned, so we talked the east branch, the west branch, the Willowy mock, the Beaver Kill. Any other streams we’re missing that you’re hitting throughout the year here? John (44m 26s): So, kind of a secret of mine, but I do love, do love the never sink in Dave (44m 30s): The winter. Oh, the never sink. Yeah. You John (44m 32s): Know, it is a tailwater, it is, you know, regulated like the east branch and the West branch. And I just love it in the winter. It’s just so pretty. You know, the big rivers are pretty, but you know, you have some of those trees that come over the river and you get the snow and most of the time you’re the only guy on the river. And it’s just so peaceful. You know, I like fishing in the small streams in the winter. The free stones can be really tough in the winter, don’t get me wrong. You can catch fish on them and stuff like that. But never, ING’s always been a special river to me. My dad always used to take me there. We used to go to the gorge and and stuff like that. So I just love being down in there. Dave (45m 8s): Okay. Never sink. And the never sink. Where is that, how is that one connected to these other ones we’ve been talking about? John (45m 13s): So it’s connected because it’s part of the, the aqueduct system for all the reservoirs. So all the water goes through these long tubes that go down to New York City for the drinking water and everything. So it’s classified as a tail water and it does flow. The never sink flows in, flows into the Delaware River down by Port Jervis. So there are wild trout running up into the, the never sink. And it’s always been labeled as a great trout stream. That’s actually, if I am correct, I think that’s where the first dryly was ever had. Oh really? Was ever used. Was on the Never Sink. Yeah, Dave (45m 50s): Right. There you go. John (45m 51s): It’s a famous Dryly River. In recent years it’s been labeled as tough to catch fish on dryly in that river, just for the reason everyone goes there and uses them and stuff like that. I will say I’ve had more luck using Nisson than Evers sink, than dry flies, but I have caught some pretty decent fish on Dries as well. Dave (46m 9s): Okay. All right. So yeah, the Never Sink definitely would be good. Another big one to add to the list. And is that far, are all these within striking distance of like if, let’s just say, you know, we were coming there to stay, where would be a good place that you would like location to stay as far as Town, city, stuff like that. John (46m 26s): So, you know, Roscoe is pretty much right in the middle, you know? Yeah. Rosco, butternut Grove is the campground. Me and Joe stay at as seasonals during the year and it, it’s about six miles more toward the Delaware. So I love that campground because it’s literally right in the middle of everything. You can get up to the Delaware and to the West Branch in 30 minutes. You can get to the Never Sink in 30 minutes. And then every, the East branch, the Willowy Lock and the Beaver Hill are all within 15 minutes. You know, it’s, it’s really a great spot to camp. You know, they have cabins, RVs, and all that good stuff. Bring your, yeah, bring your camper tent camp, whatever you need. Yep. So I love staying there, just ’cause it’s so easy to get everywhere from there. Dave (47m 9s): Yeah. Butternut. Okay. That’s awesome. Butternut Grove. Yeah, right off the highway, so that’s easy. Yeah. John (47m 13s): Right off the highway, store your boat there, all that good stuff. Dave (47m 17s): And it’s on the Beaverkill. John (47m 18s): Yeah, right on The Beaver Kill. And I will say that’s a great pool right behind the campground in the spring. Dave (47m 24s): That’s another bonus. John (47m 25s): Yeah. Get some great rainbows there in the spring. Dave (47m 27s): Okay. So yeah, another bonus. So you’re right there. That would would be amazing to camp right on The Beaver Kill is access pretty good out there as far as like, where would people find out how to, where they could go walk and wait and stuff like that? John (47m 38s): So, you know, old 17 is a, the old highway that used to go along all the rivers and stuff like that. And if you just drive along that, you’ll see the big brown state fishing signs Okay. That you can park at. And you’ll see the parking lot. You, you really can’t miss it. There are a few spots like on the Upper East Branch where it’s just a pull off. You’re not gonna see a sign, but it’s an obvious pull off. Pull off there, you’ll find the, the state sign that where for the footpath, for the anglers. And then usually as long as you’re in the river, you’re good. As long as you’re within that high water mark, you can pretty much walk wherever you want. There are a few spots where there is private water, like the Upper Beaver kill above the 2 0 6 bridge. John (48m 21s): Most of it’s private for clubs and stuff like that. But like on the Delaware system and like that, most of it is accessible if you’re willing to walk. Dave (48m 29s): It is. Okay. Well that’s great. That’s great to hear. Okay. So lots of opportunities there. Well, let’s, let’s start to take it outta here. We have a little segment, this is kind of our brand shout out segment. And I’m sure you probably had some good brands being at the show recently that you connected with. But today this is presented by Pesca on the fly. They have this unique fly rod, which is a six piece, one of their rods, the six piece fly rod. It was interesting because when we talked to them, it sounds amazing because it’s a little bit shorter than the four piece. So it’s, you can throw it in your backpack like a normal small backpack. It’ll fit in there. And I just heard that Canada, I guess is restricting travel. So now when you go there, you can’t carry on a rod. It’s, you know what I mean, it’s gotta be small enough. Dave (49m 10s): So those old four pieces now have to be check bag, check baggage. So that’s a good tip on. So we’re gonna give a shout out to PEs on the fly today. But for you, what is your, maybe talk about that. What are some of the brands you’re using? Do you have kind of rod reel, other gear brands that you kinda really love, you wanna give a shout out to? John (49m 28s): So I will say this last year I’ve picked up some Douglas rods. Oh yeah. They’re a New York company. Sure. And I’m very happy with them. Great. Action. Their warranty is second to none. You know, I had a client pretty much just accidentally step on a rod, break it right in half. I had a new piece on my doorstep in three days. Oh wow. And I will say, no offense to any other companies, but that’s, I’ve never had that before. It’s always taken way longer than that. So Douglas is, you know, I’ll definitely be getting more rods from them and recommending and using them in the future. Another one, you know, the hero sunglasses, love them. I used, I’ve been using Walmart shades for the last few years and then yeah. John (50m 10s): Finally stepped it up. Got them. And as some, the difference in impeccable, you know? Yeah. Like as a guide, you know, you’re telling your clients there’s a fish right there. And they got their Walmart shas on, they have no idea where the fish is. Right. And I’m like, it’s swimming right there, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. But was a great brand and I love their sunglasses. Dave (50m 30s): That’s perfect. Perfect. Yeah. But, and are you more of a glasses or plastic lens? John (50m 35s): So I got the first pair, I was being kind of cheap, got the plastic lenses, and then I was at this West branch like show for next year gonna all the companies come together and they show you what they’re presenting for next year. And I tried some glass lenses out and, you know, it was kind of, it looked better, you know, the colors were better and everything. So I got a pair of glass lenses and I hate to say I haven’t put the plastic ones back on since Dave (51m 1s): No. Yeah. So you like the Yeah, they’re a little, so I John (51m 3s): Would, yeah, I’d say the, I’d say the glass is worth the extra money. Dave (51m 7s): Yeah. And it’s, and it’s not that much heavier, right? No, John (51m 10s): It’s not at all heavier. Yeah. And they, and the great part is that they don’t scratch my plastic ones. You know, even though I have the lanyard thing on ’em, I drop ’em, you know, stick ’em in my fly bag, you know, after I get off the boat and stuff like that. And they get all scratched up. The glass ones have done the same thing and they’re still perfect. I, I’ve had no problems. Dave (51m 27s): Yeah. That’s perfect. Good. Okay. So we got our, our couple of gear shouts out there. And did you see at the show when you were in Edison, did you see a ton of, I guess everybody was there. Was that, was that a pretty good show? John (51m 37s): Oh yeah, it was great. You know, we saw, we saw Kevin from Douglas. That was awesome talking to him. Billy from Behe, he is a great guy. I love fishing with him. Joe came down to the show on Friday and said hi to everyone. It’s always cool seeing him there. You know, it’s always fun talking to everyone at the shows. I like connecting with people, you know, trying to get people up to the Catskills. You know, I wouldn’t, I can’t believe, you know, it’s two hours away from Edison. Wow. A lot of people come to the show from Edison. It’s like two and a half hours. And not many people have been up to the Catskills or even Roscoe or Wow, that’s amazing. Amazing. Or even heard about it. And you know, it’s the birthplace of American fly fishing. Dave (52m 13s): Right. So John (52m 14s): I really, you know, I’ve, I love pushing. I’ve, and I’m thinking about doing another show in March in Lancaster, pa so, you know, I really want to get people up to the cascos or at least inform ’em about the history. You know, just come up and check it out. It’s, it’s a great place. It’s awesome fishing, you know, it’s so beautiful. Dave (52m 31s): Yeah. That is amazing. But John (52m 33s): Yeah, it’s this, and I will say I’m a, I love birds, you know, especially birds are prey. And it’s in New York and the Catskills, I’m pretty sure it’s like, it has the second most bald eagles in the US Dave (52m 43s): Oh, it does. John (52m 43s): I’m pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah. Other than Alaska. Dave (52m 46s): Sure. Birds of prey. So you see lots of, and lots of eagles and other birds of prey. Yeah. John (52m 51s): Eagles, hawks. You know, we’ve even seen some golden eagles this last year. Yeah. Which is surprising. ’cause they’re starting to make a comeback, which is great to see. And you know, right. You’re out at night. If we’re out mousing, you know, you’ll hear the owls hooting in the woods and stuff. And that’s just a surreal experience. It’s a lot of fun. Dave (53m 7s): Do you consider yourself a, like a birder? I John (53m 10s): Don’t know. I like ’em. I don’t, yeah. You know, Dave (53m 13s): You don’t have all the birding books and like going get nerding out on it, like fully? No, John (53m 17s): Not really. Nerding out. I got, I got the, the bug books. I kind of, I nerded out on the bugs when I was learning about all the hatches and stuff like that. Oh yeah. You know, the birds, I have the bird books. I just like seeing them, seeing them in the wild. And, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s great. Dave (53m 30s): Yeah. Are you able to, I, I was listening to somebody recently as like a friend of a friend that they were saying they were looking for a specific owl. And I can’t remember the species, but he hadn’t found one in years, like six years. And then he just happened to find this owl in a neighborhood. It was like literally in like a cul-de-sac. And, and the guy was out there with his binoculars being like, oh my God. That’s the first time he’s ever seen the owl. Are you, is that something where you see, you’re seeing new species you don’t know of and you know, out there? Or is it typical you John (53m 56s): Seen? Yeah, sometimes. We saw a Green Heron last year, and I’ve never seen, oh yeah. Green. I never seen any of those on the Delaware. Might have just missed ’em. But last year I started to notice ’em and then the Golden Eagles. That was something that I have not seen in the Catskills until like these last two years. Well, the two years ago I saw one, and then this last year I, I had three or four or five sightings and it was pretty cool. Dave (54m 19s): That is cool. Yeah. It’s the more you hear about New York and it is surprising that more of those people down in New Jersey aren’t making it up there because it seems like the more you hear about it, you know, the bigger it gets. Right. Because there’s, it’s such a big state and there’s so much to do and, and you know, New York City, of course is the, is totally the opposite it feels like than the most of the state. You know what I mean? Yeah. Most of the state is this other, is what you’re talking about. Right. These amazing national parks and all that. John (54m 47s): I used to live in Cincinnati, Ohio. My parents were divorced and that’s where I went to high school and stuff like that. Before I moved back out to New York. I still tied and fished out there and everything. But you know, I was telling everyone, I was like, I gotta move back to New York and Oh, New York City, New York City. I’m like, no, not New York City. I’m right. New York City. And you know, it’s crazy how many people think New York is just New York City. Not many people know about New York state and upstate and all the great fishing steelhead salmon. Right. You can do whatever you want here. Yeah. And it’s amazing, you know, there’s so many great hiking trails, camping spots. It’s upstate New York is like Yep. It’s awesome. Dave (55m 26s): It’s got it all. And the weather is not too bad either. Right. You get some, some hot summers and depending on the, or maybe some cold years, but overall Right. But like you’re saying, springtime through the fall is probably pretty spectacular. Right. Perfect. John (55m 39s): Oh, it’s beautiful. Yeah. ’cause you’re up in the mountains too. So the summers, you know, we might get like one week where it’s hot and humid, but other than that you get the nice cool nights. You get the, the nice mornings and typically it’s just really comfortable. You know, it’s a great, it’s a great place. Dave (55m 55s): Yeah. And you’re not too far. The other cool thing is, is you’re not too far from the Great Lakes. I mean, we’ve talked a lot about Lake Ontario, of course. Lake Erie, south Shore of, of Lake Erie. I mean, you could, if you wanted to drive out there and hit some, some of that. Oh, all steelhead. Yeah. John (56m 8s): You’re like two and a half, three hours from the Salmon River. And then you have all the Western trips to like Ontario. You got the Finger Lakes for Landlock Atlantics and all that good stuff. Right. You know, and that’s just the east or western side in New York, you know. Oh yeah. Haven’t even gotten into the Adirondacks. You know, like that’s just another beast on its own with all the hiking and fishing and, and everything up there. Dave (56m 32s): And where are the Adirondacks from? Roscoe. John (56m 34s): So it would be Northeast. Dave (56m 36s): Okay. Yeah. Northeast. So yeah. And the Adirondacks are in New York as well. Yep. John (56m 41s): It like great sacking dog, a lake and the Os River. Dave (56m 44s): Oh, in the Sable. Sure, John (56m 45s): Sure. Yeah. And you know all, all those That’s right. The like 46 high peaks and stuff like that. Yep. I haven’t even, I’ve explored the Adirondacks a little bit, but I’d like to get up there more and do stuff, you know, ’cause it’s, that’s Dave (56m 60s): Really cool. John (57m 1s): I’ve only done the west western part of New York so far. Yeah. Now. Yeah. That’s where my dad always took me. That’s where I’ve kind of stuck. Yeah. The Western. Yeah. I’d like to branch out and get out some, see some new places. Dave (57m 11s): Sure. Have you looked at thought about heading up into Canada at all? With, to the, you know, I mean, you could drive up to, I mean, it’s pretty far, but you’ve got some stuff up there, right? Atlantic salmon and some other brook trout stuff like that. John (57m 23s): Oh yeah. Labrador. Yeah. Labrador Brook trout. That’s a dream of mine. Yeah. My big dream is to get out to Iceland. Some, some though. Oh, I, yeah. I would love to go to Iceland for those sea rum, brown trout. The arctic char. Dave (57m 35s): Yeah. And the arctic char. Yeah. John (57m 36s): And that’s a big dream of mine. But yeah, I do. I’d love to go to Canada, British Columbia. Yeah. Is a bucket list. You know, south America, right. I like to travel, you know, I like to see new places. Dave (57m 47s): There you go. Yeah, there’s a ton. It’s, it’s cool to have a cool home, a home state because like you said, you got lots of stuff just where you are. But yeah, there’s lots out there to do as well. Well, let’s, let’s take it out here just with a quick little, a little three tips segment. So we talked a lot about, you know, that area. Let’s just go back to the winter. Let’s say somebody is there, it’s late February, maybe it’s early March, you know, it’s not, it’s warmed up a little bit and there’s phish. What would be three tips you would give somebody, maybe who’s, who’s new or who’s been struggling to catch fish out there in the winter? What, what would you be telling them? John (58m 18s): You know, play with your in depth. You know, if you, if you’re not taking bottom, make it a little deeper. Three inches, three inches, three inches. You know, get it right near the bottom. If you don’t get a fish on that first cast through the, the perfect first cast, give it 10 more, you know, like, fish that area, you know, give it the time of day. You know, don’t just keep walking. One cast, keep walking. Really, really fish it because that fish, you know, he could be swimming around real slow, coming up to a spot for some reason. He might not see it or might not want it on the first two or three passes. You know, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve casted. 10, 13 times in the same spot in 14 calf. Bam. John (58m 58s): I get a nice fish. There you go. You know? And then just keep playing with your fly. Don’t be scared to try an attractor fly, you know, all way. And I’d say go small and go small. You small flies there. Dave (59m 10s): So small being, like you said, don’t mess with. So we’re talking 18, 16 or nine 16. Small enough. John (59m 16s): Yeah, I’ll use a 16 on J Cook. 16 would probably be the smallest. I’ll go once we start getting into April and stuff, I’ll start using larger nymphs. ’cause then the larger bugs are getting ready to start making their migrations and getting ready to start hatching. So I’ll start upping my nymph size, and then once we get into the heat of the summer, I’ll start going back down again. Dave (59m 35s): Then back down. Okay. Yeah, those are all awesome tips. Perfect. So, so good. Well, I’ve got a, just a couple random ones and then we’ll, we’ll, we’ll take it outta here. So always love to get a little random mix of music from this, but what is your, do, are you on the, when you’re on the road traveling around with your new boat, are you listening to more podcasts or music when you’re on the road? John (59m 56s): If it’s a long road trip, I like podcasts. If I’m just like running up to Oscar or something, people might not know the radio station, but 1 0 1 0.5. Okay. WPDH, it’s like a classic rock. You know, they have a funny talk show in the morning. Dave (1h 0m 10s): Is it W-W-P-D-H? John (1h 0m 12s): Yeah. Dave (1h 0m 13s): Okay, perfect. John (1h 0m 14s): That’s just what I listen to on the way up the road. That’s what me and my dad always listen to. Dave (1h 0m 18s): So you got some morning, this is great. So you got some morning talk radio going and, and I, I love that. What, what is the, what are the DJ or what is the, what are they doing there? Who are these guys? Oh, John (1h 0m 27s): Girls man. They’re, they’re funny. I don’t know how to explain it, you know? Yeah. It’s the stuff they talk about’s good. They give you the information for like, the area, like Lo la Hudson Valley and stuff like that, where I’m from. And then, you know, they have people call in and it’s just funny the people that call in, you know, it’s just, just keeps me engaged while I’m on the road. Dave (1h 0m 46s): That’s awesome. Have you ever called in on any of that stuff? John (1h 0m 48s): No. No, no. No. That’s not that Dave (1h 0m 51s): Kind of guy. Not your style. Yeah. Yeah. This John (1h 0m 52s): Is the first podcast I’ve ever done, you know? Yeah. Well you’re of branching out Right now. Dave (1h 0m 56s): Totally. Yeah. You’re you’re doing it now. This is, this is bigger than calling in. You know, I, I think this is like, I’m not sure how many people W pH gets out to, but I’m guessing it’s probably a lot because it’s, this is out New York and New York Station. Yeah, John (1h 1m 9s): It’s been, and it’s been around forever. You know, I’ve been listening to it with my dad since I was a, since I can remember, you know, maybe not the same host, but they’ve been there forever and love Dave (1h 1m 19s): It. Love. Well, in this day and age, the nice thing is, I think you can pretty much get any station from anywhere now. So we will, we’ll look up some 1 0, 1 0.5 and classic rock. What, what is your, if you had to pick one group person, you know, band song from classic rock, what would that be? John (1h 1m 35s): Oh man, that’s, that’s tough. Dave (1h 1m 37s): Yeah. John (1h 1m 37s): You know, that is tough. Dave (1h 1m 40s): Is are you more like seventies, eighties, I guess eighties now is classic rock, right? John (1h 1m 44s): Yeah, I guess now, but I’m pretty much, IM like all over the board, you know, I like Tom Petty, ac b, C? Yeah. Okay. You know Leonard Skynyrd. Oh, Dave (1h 1m 53s): Skynyrd, yeah. John (1h 1m 53s): Stuff like that. But then I also listen to the, my girlfriend likes the new stuff. So when she’s in the car, if she plays her Dave (1h 1m 60s): Playlist, what would be a new, what would be something new? John (1h 2m 3s): She likes Mexican music. Oh, Dave (1h 2m 5s): Really? Okay. So John (1h 2m 6s): I don’t know any, like specific artists per se. Sure. But I do go to concerts with her, take her Oh, cool. And stuff. There Dave (1h 2m 14s): You go. John (1h 2m 15s): So Dave (1h 2m 15s): Yeah. Yeah, Mexican. I, I definitely love that. I just don’t know of any band. The cool thing is we can go to Spotify Right now and probably put in Mexican music or whatever and get some tunes, so. Oh yeah. So good. So we’ll do, and what about a podcast? What do you listen to? What would be one podcast you might listen to? Oh, John (1h 2m 30s): I like your guys’ podcast. Oh, nice swing. I’ve listened, I listened to that quite a bit. You know, I listen just on the road, you know, throwing a murder podcast or some Okay. True crime stuff or Sure, true crime. Just a random, you know, podcast about cars or something like that. You know, just something to listen to random. Dave (1h 2m 49s): Oh, right. Yeah. Cars, like, like building or working on cars, stuff like that. John (1h 2m 53s): Yeah. You know, just, or like, you know, just a random like deep sea fishing podcast, you know? Sure. Just like, you know, anything to keep the mind moving, learn some stuff. Yeah, Dave (1h 3m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. Good. Nice. Well, this has been good, John. I think this has been a lot of fun. I think we could probably leave it there today and we will be in touch for sure, because the, the plan is to get out in that part of the world. I’ve been close in New York, but haven’t ever actually trout fished out there, so I’m, I’m hoping to, to put that together in the next year or so. But yeah, thanks for all your time today. This has been a lot of fun. And we’ll send everybody out to, I guess, like you said, John’s Catskill Guide service on Instagram. Is that the best place to send people? Yeah. John (1h 3m 32s): Or Facebook. Dave (1h 3m 34s): Or Facebook. Okay. John (1h 3m 35s): Yep, that’d be perfect. Dave (1h 3m 36s): Okay. And then we’ll also put a link out to trout town flies.com with Joe’s shop and the place you’re working for there. But, but yeah, thanks again. This has been amazing and really appreciate you shedding all your kind of wisdom and insight on, on the Catskills, and we’ll be in touch soon. Yeah, John (1h 3m 50s): No problem. Thank you. We hope to see you out there. Dave (1h 3m 53s): All right. Your call to action today is check in with John. You can do that Right now on Instagram, John’s Catskills Guide Service, Catskills Guide Service, or@trouttownflies.com. Check in with John and let him know you heard this podcast. And if you wanna get a truck check in with him Right now. That is, sounds like an amazing place to start. Alright, quick thing, two things before we get outta here. Just wanna remind you, Togiak is going strong, Togiak Week, Togiak Fishing Alaska. If you’re interested in this trip, check in with me dave@wetlyswing.com and put Togiak in the subject line. I’ll let you know if we have any availability. We have a few spots we should still have left as of this episode. And let me know, this is gonna be chasing Chinook and Salmon up in Alaska at this amazing lodge, TOK River Lodge. Dave (1h 4m 37s): Okay. And the next episode you also don’t wanna miss this week is round two with Tommy Lynch. This is on Wednesday this week we’re gonna be digging back into streamer days Streamer episode number two with Tommy Lynch. Don’t miss that one. Click subscribe so you get updated when that episode goes live in two days from Right now if you’re listening to this one live. Alright, I gotta get on, we got a Stillwater episode coming up soon, so I’m gonna go work on that one. But appreciate you for stopping in today and checking out the show. Hope you have a great morning, great afternoon, or great evening, wherever you are in the world, and we’ll talk to you soon. 3 (1h 5m 9s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

722 | Fishing for the Snake River Cutthroat with Josh Gallivan – Grand Teton Fly Fishing

By

Dave

-

February 21, 2025

Josh Gallivan, head guide at Grand Teton Fly Fishing, is here to share his expertise on the streams and lakes around the Grand Teton area. He’ll talk about how he started at the Jack Dennis Fly Shop, share some great stories, and dive into his techniques for sight fishing snake river cutthroat and fishing stillwater lakes. Plus, he’ll tell us about an incredible mothership trip that’s not to be missed.

Show Notes with Josh Gallivan on Fishing Snake River Cutthroat. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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About Josh Gallivan

Josh’s fly fishing journey started in high school when he got a job at the Jack Dennis Outdoor Shop in Jackson. While working there, he met fantastic people like Jeff Currier and Scott Sanchez.

He remembers watching the guides come in after their long days on the river, sunburned but happy. That’s when he realized he wanted to be a guide, not just work in the shop. After three years, he switched to guiding, and it’s become his true passion.

Check out our podcast episode with Jack Dennis!

Episode Chapters with Josh Gallivan on Fishing Snake River Cutthroat

Spring fishing kicks off when temperatures hit around 40–45°F. That might not seem warm, but after a long winter, the fish get active. The best action happens from noon to 4 p.m. when the sun warms things up. The challenge is that boat ramps can still be buried under snow.

How Do You Know When the River “Pops”?
- Look for Blue Winged Olive mayflies starting to hatch.
- If you see trout rising to sip bugs off the surface, it’s game on.
- If a spot looks fishy but you don’t see any heads, move on—it’s all about sight fishing.
What Fly Should You Use?
- A size 16 Comparadun with a sparse tie works excellently. Pair it with a 10-foot, 5X leader. The Snake River Cutthroats aren’t too picky, but a soft landing fly helps.

While some tributaries don’t open until April, the Snake River stays open year-round. Fish move out of the smaller streams and into the river in winter. You can still fish here without a boat and catch Snake River Cutthroat. A 20-inch Snake River Cutthroat is considered big because these fish grow slowly due to the long winters and short summers.

In the summer, Jackson Hole gets packed with tourists. It’s exciting but can be a bit crazy with traffic. For guides like Josh, it’s a chance to teach people about the environment and the fragile river ecosystem.

What Makes Snake River Cutthroat Unique?

The Snake River cutthroat is one of several native cutthroat species in the West, with others like the Yellowstone and Colorado River cutthroats nearby. What’s unique about this fishery is that you won’t find native trout in many places. Jackson Hole is a lucky area with thriving native cutthroat populations.

For those interested, there’s even a Wyoming Cutt-Slam challenge where you can try to catch all four cutthroat species in the state.

Hosted Trips

26:28—Josh has traveled the world on fishing trips with his clients. Some places he’s been to include Greenland, Cuba, Belize, and Mexico. One of his favorite trips was to Cuba, where the tarpon fishing was incredible.

Josh talks about his time on a mothership during his Cuba trip. The boat was huge, with 10 rooms and three stories. It was super comfortable, and the crew took great care of everyone.

After fishing, they’d get ice-cold towels, rum punch, and delicious appetizers. The best part? The boat was only 5 minutes away from the fishing grounds. They’d relax on the top deck at night, watching tarpon roll in the sunset.

31:09 – Josh has also been to the remote Anaa Atoll near Tahiti, one of his favorite places. The fishing is incredible, with bonefish, giant trevally, snapper, and sharks. But what truly stands out is the culture. The locals treat visitors like family.

Follow Josh on Instagram 👉🏻 @joshgallivan

Connect with him on Facebook 👉🏻 Josh Gallivan Fly Fishing

Visit their website at GrandTetonFlyFishing.com

Fishing Snake River Cutthroat Related Podcast Episodes

688 | Grand Teton Fly Fishing with Scott Smith – Jack Dennis, Snake River, Trout

WFS 217 – Jack Dennis on Fly Fishing – Western Trout Fly Tying, Curt Gowdy, Gary Lafontaine

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript

Dave (2s): There’s something about catching a native fish in its home range. There are a ton of species spread around the world and around this country. But there’s something great when you can connect with one fish on your terms. It’s a special moment. Today’s guest makes his living connecting anglers with native cutthroat trout, And today you’re going to experience how he brings it all together. So you have a few more tips for your next trout trip. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, how’s it going? I’m Dave host of the Wetly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. Dave (44s): I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and guides than just about anyone out there. Josh Galvin, head guide at Grand Teton Fly Fishing is gonna walk us through his program on the streams and lakes around the Grand Teton area. You’re gonna hear how he got his start working at the Jack Dennis Fly Shop back in the day. This is a great story. He gets into another Jack Dennis sighting, and you’re also gonna find out how Josh sight fishes for trout and some big tips on fishing lakes. We’re gonna get into it still water as well today. Plus you’re gonna hear about his program around the world and this mothership trip that it’s amazing. You can’t miss this one, the mothership trip. It’s gonna be a good one. All right, let’s get into it. Here he is, Josh Gallivan from Grand Teton fly fishing.com. Dave (1m 28s): How you doing, Josh? Josh (1m 29s): I’m good, Dave. Thanks for having me, man. Yeah, Dave (1m 31s): Yeah, I’m really excited about this one. I, you know, I’m, I’m excited because I haven’t been out. I mean, I’ve been in the, your neck of the woods where you’re the head guide with Grand Teton Fly Fishing, but I haven’t been out with you specifically. So I’m hoping, you know, maybe in the next year we’ll be changing that. But we’re gonna talk the Grand Tetons Jackson Hole, you know, kind of the Snake River system, everything that’s going on out there, which we all know is a lot. We’ve been covering a lot of content out there. But before we jump into that, first off, how are things going? What it’s like, it’s kind of mid, when this goes live, it’s gonna be like mid to late February. What’s, what’s happening now? What’s gonna be happening in the next month or so? Josh (2m 5s): Oh man, it’s, you know, I’m sitting here in Jackson Right now. It’s supposed to be negative 18. Oh, wow. This weekend. So it’s kind of comical that we’re talking about a fly fishing podcast. Dave (2m 17s): Has it been negative 18? I’ve been hearing that around the country. Has it been a while since it’s been that cold? Josh (2m 23s): Well, this is the first time this winter. Dave (2m 24s): Yeah. But, but is that typical every winter you guys are getting a cold snap? Josh (2m 28s): Yeah, January is kind of the, you know, the coldest month of the year, shortest days of the year. But yeah, man, it’s, I drive over the Snake River every day and I just, I’m dreaming about, you know, summer months and spring coming. Yeah. Typically in March, kind of second half of March, early April, the temperatures start to stabilize And we have just some, some of the best dry fly fishing of the year, and it’s still ski season, so there’s really not a lot of people that know about it. But yeah, it can be very special. Dave (3m 1s): And is that for, is that the kind of bluing dolls and stuff like that? Or is that more midges? What, what’s going on that time of year? Josh (3m 7s): Yeah. Yeah. Betas and midges, the snake’s definitely a low water fishery, so it’s gonna fish best kind of a lower the water. And in March and April, you know, before runoff has happened, the fish are just potted up, you know, and they’re, they’re in the mid river riffles and there’ll be hundreds of fish in one riffle. You could just have so much fun just standing in one spot. Wow. Yeah, it’s epic. Dave (3m 34s): That’s really cool. So this is good. I, this is already starting off pretty good because, you know, I’m kind of thinking, always thinking about when we get into these things because, and you’ve done a lot of travel too around the, the country, the world and things like that. But when we take it in there, there’s a lot of times you could fish the snake. Right. And we’ve been out there later in the fall and things like that, but, but it’s great to hear winter. Yeah. Those are the times Josh (3m 53s): Everybody knows about. Dave (3m 54s): Yeah. That’s what everybody knows, but people don’t think about this winter. And I guess, could you still in March and April get a cold snap out there, get some crazy weather? Josh (4m 2s): Yeah, you could. I mean, it’s definitely more weather dependent that time of year. But then again, I mean in, I’ve fished in snowstorms in June before, you know? Dave (4m 11s): Yeah. Yeah. Well, let’s, we’re gonna tee that up here in a second. Before we get into that, I want to take it back real quick on your story, because I don’t wanna miss that. I wanna hear about how you got into fly fishing, you know, what’s your first memory? How did you come into connecting with Grand Teton and Scott out there? Josh (4m 26s): Yeah, so growing up here in Jackson, you know, I fished a little bit as a kid, but I really didn’t dive into fly fishing until I was in high school. And I got a job at the Jack Dennis Outdoor shop. And, you know, I worked with, I worked with some pretty amazing people. I worked with Jeff er, you know, Scott Sanchez, who’s the most creative, innovative fly tire I’ve ever seen. I shared days off with Jeff, and pretty quickly I, you know, I kind of remember the fishing guides coming into the shop, like after guiding, and they were just kind of sunburnt and tired, and they were picking up flies for the following day. Josh (5m 11s): And something just kind of in me, I was like, I want that, you know, I need to be a fishing guide. I can’t be in the shop just selling flies to people and talking fishing every day. I, I wanna live it, you know? Yeah. So after three years in the fly shop, I think I was just outta high school, I started guiding, and it’s just become, it’s become, you know, my, my passion and the people you meet along the way, and, you know, it’s given me a, it’s given me a livelihood. It’s given me a life. I really wouldn’t have it any other way. I mean, it’s really just an awesome thing. Dave (5m 48s): Yes. It sounds pretty awesome. And I love that. I always love when I get a Jack Dennis story or two, and we’ve had him on the podcast and Oh, really? Yeah. It was one of the best episodes because he is just got so many stories. But talk about that. And it was the Jack Dennis Outdoor store, not the Jack Dennis fly shop. Is that a different thing or? Well, the, Josh (6m 3s): The fly shop was in the, the outdoor store. Dave (6m 6s): Okay. So describe for those, ’cause we’ve talked, you know, we’ve had Jeff Curry, we had a lot of people on, but I’ve never heard about what it looked like. Can you describe the Jack Dennis Outdoor store back Josh (6m 15s): In the day? Yeah. Yeah. So the shop itself is a huge outdoor store. It’s right on the town square, you know, in the summer we get 6 million visitors a summer Wow. In our little town of 15,000 people. So it’s a really popular place. And Jack did so much for the sport. I mean, it was, it was just awesome getting to work with him. And, you know, it was a really interesting kind of client base, because I think you get a lot of just tourists that come through that are interested in fly fishing. And there we do have a good amount of fly fishermen, hardcore fly fishermen that, that come through too. But, you know, just random people walking into the fly shop and you just have five minutes with them to chat and try to turn ’em into a fly fisherman right then and there. Josh (7m 3s): But, you know, a lot of our, our bread and butter in the fly shop was honestly like two hour casting lessons. And I taught a lot of people, I think I set the record, I actually beat Jeff Courier. I, I did five, two hour lessons in a day. Wow. Yeah. So 10 hours of just talking, fishing and casting in a stocked pond, you know, and I mean, it was good money, it was good exposure. It was just great. Dave (7m 28s): That’s crazy. So you had a actual, a pond near the fly shop? Josh (7m 32s): No, we, we had a pond, you know, offsite that we Dave (7m 35s): Oh, okay. Stocked. Gotcha. So people would come through and, and they would be new to fly fishing, or maybe they fly fish, but they need some help, and you’d say, Hey, let’s set up a casting and we’ll head out to the pond. Yeah, Josh (7m 46s): Yeah, exactly. You know, a lot of kids, little, you know, families. Dave (7m 51s): God, that’s so good. What’s that like when you, ’cause I’ve done some casting instruction and I think, you know, you have your own way. I, I was never trained, you know, I don’t have a certification, anything like that. So I think it, it was not always the easiest thing. How do, how would those two hours look in the casting instruction? Josh (8m 8s): Yeah. So, you know, right off the bat you’re just trying to get to know people and you’re trying to, you’re just trying to let your passion sort of shine through with what you’re talking about. I would do, you know, with two hours, I would do a little bit of knots cast and just try to give ’em a rundown of what fly fishing is, you know? Right. It’s actually quite hard to do. There’s really an art to it. Dave (8m 30s): Right. So you’d have somebody come out there, you’d get on the pond, and you would just basically take the rod and say, okay, here’s what you gotta do. You gotta rig up your leader, tie on a, did you tie some yarn on the end of the, on the, of the leader? That sort of thing? Yeah. Josh (8m 42s): Or just cut the hook off, Dave (8m 43s): Or just cut the hook off and then, and then basically just kinda show them what a cast looks like. And then do you just give ’em the rod and say, you know, now try it. Or how do you, like if it’s somebody really new, how do you do that? Josh (8m 54s): You know, honestly, the first thing I would say is, so what is your fly fishing experience and what do you think fly fishing is? And I think 90% of people honestly thought that you were doing this back and forth motion to, you know, to create a flying insect Oh, right above the water. And then the, the fish would come up and jump and grab it. Dave (9m 14s): A river runs through it. Right. That, that famous Josh (9m 16s): Cast, a river runs through it, that famous cast. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I quickly, you know, started telling people, well, the reason that we false cast is number one, dry the fly off, number two, you know, reposition your, your cast and aim. And so people started to pick it up pretty quickly. Dave (9m 34s): Yeah, exactly. Cool. So, yeah. So that’s Jack Dennis, obviously he’s the man, he’s got tons of history there. We’ll put a link out to that episode we have with Jack as well. But let’s get into a little bit back to what I was saying on that wintertime piece. What was, you know, if you take it right to the water, let’s just say it’s, you know, what would you say, mid-March to kind of April or kind of in that period, what does a good day on the water look like as far as weather? Is this is clear, sunny, is that okay? Or what are you looking for for conditions? Josh (10m 5s): So in the spring, we’re, we’re definitely looking for, you know, like even a 40 degree day is the bugs are gonna pop, the fish are gonna be active. And coming from a long winter, it feels like a 60 degree day. And, you know, if the sun’s out great tends to be a little bit warmer if it’s like, just lightly snowing. But the challenge that we see in the spring is all the boat ramps are still under like six feet of snow. Oh, Dave (10m 32s): Right. Josh (10m 33s): So we have a raft and we’re able to push the raft over the snow and, you know, find access to the river that way. But the best activity is gonna be, you know, in the heat of the day from like noon to four. And a lot of people are not aware of this. And so you take ’em out there. And it honestly, a, a, a good day in the spring, rivals any day in the summer, you know, with tons of snow on the ground, people cannot believe it. That is awesome. Dave (10m 60s): So are you doing the same program then? Are you getting in at a boat ramp and just basically floating the river as you would do and in the summer or fall? Josh (11m 7s): Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But there’s no pressure. There’s nobody out there. Yeah. It’s just really a special time of year. Dave (11m 14s): Sounds great. So, like you said that the best time that that could start happening is, is there a, is it usually around that mid-March, late March, when you start thinking about, you know, that getting back into it? Josh (11m 23s): Yeah. You know, you’re watching the weather and you’re, I I’m looking for like a 45 degree day, and you just know the river’s gonna pop. Yeah. Dave (11m 32s): What does it look like when it pops if you’re out there And it starts popping at noon or something like that? Josh (11m 36s): Well, I mean, if I don’t know where a trout lives by now, I’m screwed. Yeah. But you can pull into a riffle or in a slew, like a really just calm backwater, and you sit and you look at it for 10 seconds, and if you don’t see heads, you move on because it’s all sight fishing, it’s all, you know, you know, there should be fish right here. And you start to see the little blue wings, you start to see their, their wings coming up off the water. You know, midges are hard to see from a distance, but you can see a blueing from a distance and, you know, it’s, it’s like clockwork. You see that nose come up and sip it, and it’s really, really exciting. Dave (12m 15s): Wow. What is a typical fly you’re using there as far as bluing oil? What size, what pattern? And then maybe talk a little about your lean setup. Josh (12m 24s): Yeah. So, you know, I, I mean, you, these fish are not, they’re not picky, they’re cutthroat, but you do have to have the right size fly. So like a size 16, you know, compare, done kind of sparsely tied little L care post. And then with that fly, I would fish, you know, probably a, at least a 10 foot, five x liter. Yeah. Not too technical. And it’s quite forgiving. The fish will give you multiple chances as long as the fly lands, you know, relatively soft. Yeah. It’s, it’s just epic, man. Dave (13m 1s): Okay. And are you typically fishing out of the raft when you’re doing, using the raft? Josh (13m 5s): Either way, you can, I mean, you can pull over, you can walk up to the top of the run and kind of get more stealthy and, yeah. Dave (13m 12s): Right. Gosh. And then these are the, the Yellowstone Cutthroat for the most part? Josh (13m 16s): No, these are all, these would be Snake River Dave (13m 18s): Cutthroat. Oh, snake River. Right. Yes. These are different. So, so talk about that a little bit. So you have a couple things going on here. These are the Snake River. And aren’t there other species too, in, in this part of the snake? Josh (13m 29s): Yeah, we have, you know, we have white fish, we have a couple brown trout, couple brook trout, but really the only the fish that we’re after is the Snake River Cutthroat. Yeah. Dave (13m 38s): Snake River. Cutthroat. That’s it. Because that’s the native, that’s the one fish out of all of ’em that’s native. Josh (13m 43s): Yeah. Well, the white fish, you know, every Oh yeah. Most, you know, the white fish and the suckers, those are all native. Dave (13m 49s): Right, right. God, that’s great. Nice. Okay. And so that’s it. It sounds like it’s pretty straightforward in the wintertime, you’re not gonna have as much pressure. What about, what about if you don’t have a boat, are there places to go to? Can you fish the snake? Or maybe there’s other, other tributaries that you could fish and maybe get some action this, that time of year? Josh (14m 5s): I would say the snake is definitely, it’s the best access. And a lot of the tributaries don’t even open until April 1st. But, you know, the snake is sort of the femoral artery of, of town and the be, Dave (14m 17s): Because it’s the tail water. That’s the big thing, right? Yeah. Josh (14m 20s): Yeah. So during the winter months at, at low flows, all the most of the fish, I would say, move out of the tributaries, and they, they move into the snake. Oh, Dave (14m 30s): Right. Josh (14m 31s): So you’re not gonna have this sort of action that I’m talking about up a tributary, the tributary fish, if they’re in there, they’re gonna be more sort of, I don’t know, more opportunistic and they’re not gonna be feeding as much. So, Dave (14m 45s): Yeah. Okay. So the Snake River cutthroat. And what’s a typical size of a Snake river? Cutthroat? What, what’s a typical, and then what do you, what’s a bigger Snake River Cudi? Josh (14m 54s): You know, I, I would say like a 20 inch snake river cutthroat is a very large fish. Yeah. But you have to take into account the, you know, the, we have really long winters. We have a short growing season. You know, the river’s really steep, it’s prone to flooding. So when you do catch that 19, 20 inch fish, I mean, that’s an old fish. And it’s really special to have a native trout fishery where we can, you know, I live two minutes from the river, I could go fishing as soon as we hang up this call. Dave (15m 21s): No kidding. Josh (15m 22s): You know, and yeah, it’s just special in that way. I think you have to appreciate the, you have to appreciate a true fisherman has to appreciate every river you step into. Yeah. For what it is. You know, we, I don’t really fish big articulated streamers on this river. You know, these cutthroat are more, they eat bugs, you know, they do eat streamers, but, you know, it’s not a brown trout fishery. No, Dave (15m 45s): No. This is a, to experience this as a, a snake river cutthroat on the surface, on a dry fly, that’s kind of what this is about. Josh (15m 54s): Yeah. And you know, I think Jack Dennis is the first person that he sort of made this place famous, because he said years ago, he said you could catch a trout on a dry fly every month of the year in Jackson. And it’s true, you know, your window in January might be short, but if the sun comes out and the, the water temperature just bumps up a degree or two, there will be bugs and there will be fish eating them. So it’s pretty unique in that way. Dave (16m 19s): Right. What’s it like when the, in Jackson Hole in, so you said the town has 15,000 people. Josh (16m 25s): Yeah. Give or take Dave (16m 26s): 15,000. And then what’s it like? So now it’s probably got 15,000 people, but come July when it’s, there’s millions coming through, what is that like? Is it exciting? Is it fun? Or do you get, you know, for you, what is it like? Josh (16m 39s): You mean when, when tourist season hits in the summer? Dave (16m 41s): Yeah, exactly. Josh (16m 42s): Yeah. I think there’s a lot of people in a small area, and I mean, we could talk all day about the issues with that, with the traffic and, and everything. But at the end of the day, people are here to enjoy the outdoors. And it’s as stewards of the environment and as stewards of the river, it’s kind of our chance to, you know, sort of educate our clients and educate these people about how fragile the resource is and the ecosystem. And yeah. It’s just, I connect a lot with my clients, you know, kind of introducing them to this sport and this area. And I think one of our jobs is guides, is to also educate people about the native trout and how rare it really is to have a native trout. Josh (17m 28s): You know, I mean, right. So many people have heard about the fishing in Patagonia or New Zealand, you know, but one thing they don’t take into account or realize is that they’re not native trout. You know, they’re wild, but they were stocked there. So to have such a thriving trout fishery here, you know, in this small city that we live in, is a really cool thing. Dave (17m 52s): That is, talk about that a little bit just on the, the trout itself. How, you know, it sounds like you know a little about the, the life history or how it differs from other cutthroat in there, because you do have a few other species and how unique that is. ’cause Yeah, you, you can go to a lot of places and catch rainbow, catch brown trout, but you’re not gonna find a, a native species. Right. That’s a native cutthroat, especially. Josh (18m 13s): Yeah. Yeah. Right. I believe there’s 26 different cutthroat species in the west, you know, and we’re lucky to have the Snake River cutthroat. And then up in Yellowstone we have the Yellowstone Cutthroat. Okay. And I think, don’t quote me on this. Yeah, Dave, but I’m, I’m pretty sure it’s the same, it’s the same genus. Dave (18m 31s): Yeah. Yeah. Well, the question was gonna be, you got Snake River Cutthroat, you know, you got that, you got Yellowstone Cutthroat. Are there any other cutthroat that are out around your area nearby? Josh (18m 40s): Well, yeah, we have, we have Colorado River Cutthroat in Wyoming. Dave (18m 45s): Yep. And the other one you don’t have, I don’t think, is, is West Slope cutthroat, which I think are a little bit further west. Josh (18m 52s): Yeah. I don’t think, no, we don’t have West Slope. Yeah. I mean, there’s a cut slam out here. Oh yeah. And I can’t even remember the fourth. I can’t even remember the fourth species. Yeah, Dave (18m 59s): The cut slam. Where, where is is that cut slam from? Is that like a, a Wyoming cut slam or what? What’s the cut slam? Josh (19m 6s): Yeah, it’s like a, it’s a Wyoming thing put on by the game and fish. Oh, Dave (19m 10s): Really? Okay. Josh (19m 11s): Yeah. And if you catch all four species, they send you a plaque And it doesn’t have to be four species in a day. I think it’s four species in a year. Dave (19m 20s): Yeah. Yeah. They got a whole, I’m looking at it now, the Josh (19m 22s): Bonneville Dave (19m 23s): Bonneville. That’s right. Yep. Josh (19m 24s): Bonnie’s. That’s Dave (19m 25s): Right. Wow. Those fish are amazing. Yeah, those cutthroat are beautiful. They’re, they’re almost, they’re golden, right? I mean, I guess the colors can vary, but they’re, wow, that’s really cool. Yeah, I’m on the, the Wyoming Fish and Game site now. There’s online application, interactive cut, slam guide. There’s definitely some resources there. Josh (19m 42s): Yeah. We’re really, we’re really lucky, man. Right on. It’s an amazing place. Dave (19m 46s): Well, how did we, we mentioned Scott the star who kind of runs Grand Teton fly fishing. How did you come to connect with him after? Well, we, we had Jack Dennis. Right. So after that, where did, where did Scott fit into the pitcher? Josh (19m 58s): Yeah. So Scott was Jack’s head guide. Dave (20m 1s): Oh, that’s right. Josh (20m 2s): Yeah. And then, so when Jack sold the, the guiding business, he sold it to Scott Smith and Mark Fuller, who were two of the head guides. Dave (20m 11s): Oh, gotcha. So he sold, so Jack Dennis sold, so this is from Jack Dennis’s shop, basically. This, Josh (20m 16s): This program still. Yeah. We’re all the, you know, the old Jack Dennis crew. So falling in with Scott and Mark was just awesome for me. I mean, I, I started, I was very young and green. I did, I grew up here and I did have a drift boat. Dave (20m 30s): Hmm. What was your drift boat? What was that drift boat you have? Oh, Josh (20m 33s): It was a, a clock or craft? Just a, it was actually a high side. My first boat was a high side. Dave (20m 38s): Oh, no kidding. Yeah. Was that before your first boat? Did they have the low sides back then? Or why, why’d you get a high side? Was it just there? Josh (20m 45s): Well, I think the reason I got a high side was, ’cause my uncle helped me buy this boat in high school, and he, he, you know, he thought it was safer. Oh, right. Safer to row. Safer to learn to row. But if you’re guiding and you’re rowing every day, it’s, you quickly realize it’s definitely not the friendliest boat on your back. Dave (21m 5s): No, no. Especially with the wind. Right. And some of that Josh (21m 7s): Stuff. Yeah. So then I got a, a low side. Dave (21m 9s): Yeah. What do you have now? Josh (21m 11s): I’ve got a, a 16 Eddie Clark Craft. Dave (21m 14s): Yeah. Clark, 16 foot Eddie, like low side. Is this a, so kind of the, they’re all a little similar, right. That’d be similar to like hides low side boat or whatever. I’m not sure what they’re called. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it’s not a, is it a pram? Would you call it a pram? Does it have the pointed bow? Yep, it does. Yeah. So it’s Josh (21m 31s): Got the point. Yeah. So it’s not a skiff. Dave (21m 32s): Not a skiff. Josh (21m 33s): Gotcha. Yeah. ’cause I like, I like to put a motor on the back, and I really like to fish Dave (21m 36s): Lakes. Oh, wow. That’s really cool. Yeah. Josh (21m 39s): So headed, but backtrack a little bit. So when I was a, a first year fishing guide, I did have mentors because I, I worked in the Jack Dennis fly shop, and I remember a couple of the senior guides saying, you know, make sure you, here, here’s some things you need to do to make sure this is a successful career for you. So one of the things was at the end of the guide season, well make sure you keep a calendar and write notes, you know, write notes about every day and write notes about your, your clients and, you know, keep in touch with your people, you know, and make sure you send them Christmas cards after the first year. Sure. Which I did. Josh (22m 19s): And it, it was awesome. Like, all of those people I sent Christmas cards through, booked me No kidding. The Dave (22m 24s): Following Josh (22m 24s): Year. And That’s amazing. Still some of those clients are like my clients from my very first year. Do Dave (22m 30s): You still send Christmas cards to this day? Josh (22m 33s): Less so I, but I do send emails and instead of Christmas cards I just call people, you know? Yeah. But that sort of, you know, that sort of attitude of what you lack in experience, you kind of make up for and hustle and just a positive attitude. I mean, I kept people out late first year. I kept people out till dark, like all the time because I just wanted people to have the best day ever. You know? And yeah, I, I had a clean truck. I I served amazing lunches, you know, and I think those things kind of paid off. Dave (23m 7s): Right. Yeah. Those are, those are big. It’s the, it seems like with the guide that, you know, the fishing is fishing. Right. It could be up and down, but it’s all those little things. Right. I think if you nail those, you make the experience. You could even have, can you, you can have a bad day right. On the water, maybe as far as catching the fish, but still have a good day with the Josh (23m 23s): Client. Totally. Exactly. And if you teach people something and, and people can see that you’re putting effort in, and honestly, sometimes the, the fishless days are the, are the hardest days on the guide, you know? Dave (23m 35s): Yeah. The fishless are the hardest. Yeah. Josh (23m 37s): Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, I had to work twice as hard to try to find fish. Although fishless days here are really rare, And we can put a fly rod in a, in a kid’s hand, and with 20 minutes of, of casting practice and just coaching, I mean, we can get that kid to throw 30 feet. And then if you’re in a drift boat, you know, we use the drift boat as a tool because the, with the boat, you can position the cast and position the fly exactly where you want it. That’s why I think this is such a great area for beginners, is because cutthroat are, are pretty friendly fish. They’re not super picky. And we fish outta drift boats. Yeah. Dave (24m 16s): You have a lot of, a lot of access. And some of it is, you know, you’re almost kind of fish like Right. You get in the boat in the position. So you’re, you’re working their fly almost. Is it? Does that, are you doing that a lot out there during the summer? Oh, yeah, Josh (24m 27s): Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, that’s 90% of guiding out here is, is rowing the boat accordingly, so that the, the, the flies in the proper water and drifting as it should, you can honestly almost set the hook with a drift boat. Dave (24m 43s): Oh, really? Right. Josh (24m 44s): Oh, yeah. Like you let their line drift out in front of the boat a little bit, teaching ’em how to mend. And then when you see that fish eat, if their line’s already tight, you just pull back on the oars really hard, their line goes tight, boom, fish on. Dave (24m 58s): Wow. Yeah. That’s cool. Setting it with the drift phone. Okay. Josh (25m 2s): Oh yeah. There’s all sorts of tricks, man. Dave (25m 4s): Yeah, that’s great. But Josh (25m 5s): At the end of the day, the, I think the idea is to make them believe they did it all Yeah. By themselves. Exactly. Dave (25m 12s): Do you get a mix of, you know, you mentioned you got your returning clients that, like in any given year, is it kind of like a half and half new people coming through? Or, or what’s that look like for you? Josh (25m 21s): For me, it’s actually now a hundred percent people I know. Dave (25m 24s): Oh, it is, yeah. Right. Josh (25m 26s): You built the clientele. Yeah. And that’s, that’s a great place to be. I mean, I, I get to pick and choose who I fish with, and unfortunately there’s just one of me and I have to have a family life, and so I take weekends off. But I could book, I mean, if I wanted to, I could book every single day of the summer just with people that I know. Dave (25m 45s): Today’s episode is brought to you by Grand Teton Fly Fishing. They’re a top guide, service and fly shop with access to some of the most prized waters in western Wyoming. And their guide team brings together over 200 years of local experience. Their goal is simple to share these amazing resources and help you experience the thrill of a native cutthroat rising to a single dryly all in the shadows of the Tetons. It’s the kind of experience that stays with you and fosters a deep appreciation for the waters we love. You can check ’em out Right now at Grand teton fly fishing.com, and if you book a trip, let them know you heard about them through this podcast today. What’s your, you also have an operation, some travel, it sounds like maybe, maybe not as much as you used to do. Dave (26m 28s): You got three kids now. I think you’ve got a young one there, but, but what does that look like? Where are some of those places around the, the country, the world that you’re really loving? You know, either been there in the past or looking forward to getting back to, Josh (26m 40s): Oh, man, you know, I really love, I love sight fishing whenever possible, so I’m kind of drawn to like the saltwater flats environments. But yeah, I’ve, you know, over the last probably eight years I’ve been hosting fishing trips and these are just clients of mine that I’ve taken on trips. You know, we’ve been to Greenland, been to Cuba, been to The Bahamas, Bolivia, wow. Mexico, Belize, just kind of all over. Dave (27m 9s): What was the, what was Cuba? What was that like? Josh (27m 11s): Oh, man, Cuba was last April. Cuba was really cool. You know, we were on a mother ship And we gotta spend a couple days in Havana before the trip, and that was a very unique, very unique place. And the fishery was really remarkable. I mean, I’ve never seen a place like that where, you know, it’s not finding the fish is the hardest part, but then every tarpon that we cast at, if it, if it was a decent cast, the fish ate the fly, which is not my experience in places like the Florida Keys where there’s so much pressure, or I don’t know what it is, but, you know, you perfect cast, you’re, you’re stripping and you see the fly right in front of their nose and, and they don’t even look at it, you know? Josh (27m 55s): But in Cuba, every single tarpon ate the fly. Wow. And I don’t know why, but I, the only thing I can think of is less fishing pressure. Dave (28m 4s): Right. And was Tarpon, was that the main species you were going for? Josh (28m 8s): Yeah, there’s really good tarpon fishing. There’s big berra snapper permit, bonefish, barracuda, you know, all the normal flat species. But yeah, it was very, very sweet, very cool place. Dave (28m 20s): What was the, doing the mothership experience? Maybe describe that a little bit. Josh (28m 25s): Okay, so the, the mothership, it’s, we were on that Avalon one, which is one of the original, original boats in Cuba. But there’s 10 rooms, you know, all the staff and the guides are on the boat with you. It’s three stories. Wow. So there’s plenty of room for people to spread out, very comfortable, you know, really, really well thought out operation. You know, you come back from fishing and you’re, you’re sunburnt and sweaty and, and they have a platter of ice cold towels for your face, and then they, they hand you a rum punch Dave (28m 59s): A, a rum punch. Josh (29m 0s): Yeah. It’s just really epic. And then about 30 minutes later, the platter of appetizers comes out and you’re just really well taken care of, you know, and then the benefit of the mothership is that the, you’re anchored right there, five minutes from the fishing grounds. Dave (29m 17s): Oh, you’re right there. Yeah. Gotcha. So you got your boat. Josh (29m 20s): Yeah. So at night we would literally, we’d sit on the top deck of the boat and there’s a big hot tub up there. Oh man. And so we’re just like enjoying each other’s company and talking about the fishing and all the stories that come from it. Yeah. And we’re watching Tarpon just roll in the sunset. Dave (29m 35s): Oh, no kidding. Josh (29m 36s): From the top of the boat. Wow. Yeah, it was, it was unbelievable. Oh Dave (29m 39s): My gosh. That, that’s what’s cool about it, is you’re, you are in their environment. You’re not only not just on land, you’re like just sitting there floating in the in. Yeah. That is really cool. Josh (29m 49s): Yeah. Awesome. Dave (29m 50s): So that would be, I would guess that that would be something you’d wanna do again, is that a trip that like, is tough to put together annually? Josh (29m 58s): It is. Because, you know, a lot of people that have done Cuba are probably gonna, probably gonna go somewhere else just to see a new place. But yeah, between me and Scott, you know, at Grand Teton fly fishing, we’re, we’re building kind of a hosting program where we take our, our guests all over the world. So it’s a win-win. I mean, because we do the research for these places, we put the whole trip together, and a lot of times we bring the gear too, so people that come on these trips, you know, being a part of a group experience and you get all the photos that come with it, and just the comradery of a, of a good group of people. It’s a lot of fun. Dave (30m 38s): That is really cool. Good. So you got that and I’m looking at the, the Avalon one. Yeah. It’s a huge boat. It looks, it’s really cool. God, look at the thing. Yeah. It’s, it’s giant three stories. Okay. What’s it like for the, the sleeping? Is that something, is it pretty just like normal sleeping in your house? Josh (30m 52s): Oh, yeah. Very comfortable. I mean, fully air conditioned, hot water showers, full bathroom. I mean, it’s luxury, total luxury. Dave (31m 1s): Nice. So you got Cuba down. What, what else do you have? Do you have other trips out there you want to get back to around the, around the country of the world? Josh (31m 9s): You know, I’ve done a lot of fishing in Tahiti, actually. Hmm. And there’s a place near Tahiti in the Tu Emoto’s. So Tahiti itself is in the society islands. About a two hour flight away from Tahiti is a little ATO called Anna. And this place has really captured my heart. Hmm. I’ve been there three times. And it’s just a really, really incredible, it’s an incredible fishery. There’s bonefish there, there’s all the traval species. We’ve got giant traval, bluefin traval, there’s Napoleon RAs there, there’s tons of snapper species, there’s sharks. But on top of all that, the cultural experience there is unbelievable. Josh (31m 54s): The locals just treat you like family, you know? And when we visit there we’re, because this, this alto is so remote that our group of fishermen we’re really the only tourist there. And so, you know, you’re, they bring you in and they just make you feel so welcome. And there’s beer throwing competition, there’s a pig roast on the beach, there’s tons of music. Literally everybody in that, on that island can pick up an instrument and just start playing. So when you leave that place, like you feel like you’re changed, you know? And a lot of places, I’ve been to a lot of these fishing destinations all over the world. There’s not a whole lot of cultural exchange happening. Yeah. Josh (32m 34s): And for me, fly fishing travel is definitely about the fish, don’t get me wrong. But there’s so much more you can appreciate, you know, the, the culture and, and the food and, and just being in this different environment, you know, it kind of, it changes your, like, your paradigm a little bit. And I think there’s like so much value in that as a human being at, you know, just seeing the world. Right. Yeah. So that’s what I love about Fly Fisher Travel is just being in a remote place in a completely different culture, different language, and waving a fly rod around. I mean, how can that suck? You Dave (33m 10s): Know? Yeah. No, I’m with you, man. I totally agree. I think that, you know, that’s come up a number of times on the podcast. And it was funny, I, I think I’d asked somebody, I can’t remember who it was on another podcast about Yeah. That I, I basically said the same thing. I was like, yeah, I mean this, the travel, the everything, it feels like that, that’s kind of what, what it’s all about. And then, but, but he was kinda like, no, it’s actually, the fly fishing is the most important thing, you know? But I think, yeah, yeah, I think it is, obviously it’s kind of what’s bringing us together, but I think you’re totally right on, like, if you’re not loving the cultures and being in a place like that in Tahiti, French Polynesia anywhere, really, you know, to be honest with you, you, you know, you could even be in North America or a a a, a city or town in, you know, in the United States that’s just kind of has its own unique culture. Dave (33m 53s): Like, you know, I mean, you know, so I think that you’re, that’s the extreme, what you’re talking about there. I think that’s extreme. If you can do that, that’s huge. Yep. But I always go back to that. We had this episode way back, gosh, I’m trying to think now, probably in the hundreds. But our guest was talking about how, you know, the destination is about where, you know, anything could be a destination. You know what I mean? She was saying like, you know, you can go to New York and that could be your destination. So I think there is a lot of awesome stuff. It sounds like you’ve traveled all over the place. I mean, what’s left for you now? You’ve hit all these places, like you’ve just named two that are probably high on anybody’s bucket list, you know, what else do you thinking about doing? Yeah. Josh (34m 31s): Oh man. There’s still so much. I mean, the world’s 85% water. Right? Right. So, I don’t know. There’s a lot, there’s a lot out there. I mean, there’s a lot in the US that I haven’t seen. Right. I’d love to go striper fishing, you know, I’d love to do more steelhead, salmon fishing up in your area. That’s kind of one of the cool parts about this journey that I’m on, is that knowing that there’s so much out there to see and experience and knowing that I’ll never get to do it all, you know? Dave (35m 2s): Yeah. What does that feel like for you? It’s Josh (35m 4s): Kind of a sobering Yeah. Dave (35m 5s): Does that, we all, we all in that situation, no matter, no matter how much money or time you have, you can’t do it all. What, what’s that feel like to you? How do you, how do you look at the future and prioritize? Josh (35m 16s): Oh man. You know, I just try to be present as, as often as I can. Yeah. And as as many cool places I’ve seen in the world, people come to Jackson Hole to trout fish. And so I often try to pinch myself when I’m sitting in the drift boat. Sometimes it feels like a day of work. And I’m like, man, people have come all over the, from all over the world to come see my little slice of heaven. And so I guess I just try to be present and put my phone down and just enjoy who I’m with and enjoy what I’m doing, you know, and teach it to my kids. And, you know, I’ve got a five-year-old and a both girls, and then we have a, we have a 15 day old baby boy and a lot of people, when my little boy was born, a lot of people were like, oh, what does that feel like having a boy? Josh (36m 9s): You know? And I’m like, well, it feels really no different than having girls. I mean, I’ve taught my girls how to fish and, you know, it really doesn’t matter to me. It doesn’t, I just want, I wanna spend time outdoors with my family, just teaching ’em, teaching ’em all the things that make my life so special, you know? And introduce ’em to outdoor experiences, camping, hunting, fishing. ’cause I think that’s where true happiness is, you know, is just spending time outside with loved ones. Yeah. It Dave (36m 39s): Is. No, I, I a hundred percent agree. I think the outdoors, there’s, how long have we been on the planet, you know? And it’s been mostly outdoors, you know, hunting, gathering. Right. That until, except for the last few hundred years or whatever it’s been, you know, I mean, we’ve been, that’s our place. So I feel that’s why it’s so good for people, you know? And that’s why people love it so much once they try fly fishing or they realize Right. The outdoors. And then, and then the girls the same thing, man. I have two girls as well. And I remember thinking that before my kids were born, I, I was always thinking, God, man, you know, having a boy, that’d be kinda be cool. You know, all that stuff. And then, yeah. And then as soon as I remember when my first daughter was born, I was like, that went, didn’t even think about that. Like, there was, that was never even a thought, to be honest with you. Josh (37m 19s): Right. Dave (37m 19s): Nice. Well, this is cool. I think we’ve covered a few things here. One thing I don’t wanna miss today, because you mentioned it, and I love, I love lakes. I think that lake fishing, we have a whole podcast series. We deal with Phil Rolly in the Littoral Zone. And I just, nice, I think it’s an awesome thing that, you know, not as many take advantage, not as many people take advantage of. But talk about that. What does your Stillwater fishing look like? I know there’s some sweet places out there. Are you doing that just on your off time or is that something where you can kind of like take clients? Josh (37m 48s): Yeah, so I’m not going to like specifically say where I fish lakes, but I guide a lot of lakes. Oh, Dave (37m 54s): You do? Okay. Josh (37m 55s): Oh yeah. Like, more than half of my season is now lake fishing. And I think I’m, I’m in that position to be able to fish lakes because I’ve, I’ve put in my time on the rivers and kind of building my guest list of friends and clients. And it was sort of my job to introduce them to lakes and grow their fly fishing experience. I just wanted to introduce people to like, okay, if you think this is cool, you’re not gonna believe what we can do on a lake, you know? Yeah. And I think the reason I love lakes so much is because most of the time you can sight fish. And I think there’s less people fishing lakes, and because the fish don’t have to fight current, I think they just get much fatter, you know, so you, it is a trophy fishery. Josh (38m 42s): I mean, you know, there’s just something fishing a lake forces you to slow down and really just kind of focus instead of just pounding the banks from a moving drift boat all day. Dave (38m 53s): Right. How do you do that with, oh, you said site fishing. I love that you, I mean, I, I don’t always think of lake fishing as, as site fishing. How is that, is that something you’re always looking for the opportunity to talk about what that looks like? Josh (39m 6s): Yeah, so I have a really proper Boston Whaler 22 foot lake boat. And using that boat, I can get up into the shallows and, you know, I, I can take people to these sand flats. That would just blow your mind, Dave. Really? It, it is Dave (39m 23s): Unbelievable. Yeah. So it feels like, it sounds like you’re creating that, you know, that the permit bonefish Definitely, Josh (39m 27s): Yes. A hundred percent. So I could sneak up on these sand flats and I have a center console. So what I do is I stand up on the center console and I look and I can spot fish a hundred feet away and the client has no idea they’re there, you know, and you kind of build it up and you are like, okay, we have a fish. He’s moving left to right. He’s at 11 o’clock, and I need you to start casting at 12 o’clock. I need you to lay out 50 feet of line, land it softly, you know, and perfect execution, perfect cast. Okay, let the fly drop. Okay, gimme a bump, bump, bump, bump. Okay. Long strip. And then you see the fish picked it up, the fish is now trailing behind the fly. And then I’m like, strip, strip strip. Josh (40m 9s): And the client still doesn’t see it happening. And then all of a sudden they come tight and it’s like, it’s just this magical experience. Wow. You know? Dave (40m 18s): Yeah. Josh (40m 18s): And I just love that so much. Maybe it’s because part of me wants to be a saltwater guide. Well, Dave (40m 23s): I was just gonna say, what, what it sounds like you’re doing is preparing yourself for later in life. You’ve got, and you’re preparing your clients, which is smart. We’ve heard this before on some other areas around the country where, you know, whether that’s, you know, heading up to Alaska or Canada for spay fishing, and then you take ’em out in the local trout waters and you know, wherever your home water is and teach ’em how to spay cast with the Trout bay. But you’re doing a, a similar thing, right? You’re Oh yeah. Getting ’em on lakes, getting them a feel for what that feels like in salt. And then, then you’re like, Hey, we’re heading to fish for know Josh (40m 53s): Bonefish. Exactly. Hey, by the way, we’re headed to The Bahamas. Dave (40m 56s): Yeah. And how could, you can pass that up. I mean, this makes total sense. So what’s keeping you from, I mean, obviously the cool thing is, Scott is amazing. I, I don’t know Scott as well as you obviously, but we had that one podcast episode. We’ll put a link in the show notes to that. I mean, it was great. You can just hear the same with you. You know, the knowledge, the history, the love, the passion, you know what I mean? Like it really comes out in Scott and you too. Yep. You know, what is it about that, what, what keeps you staying going strong in Jackson? Not pulling up and saying, Hey family, let’s move to Cuba or wherever. Josh (41m 28s): Yeah, I mean, I just love this area. I just love this place. And, and also I’ve built a, a good business here, you know, so I’m not, I’m not leaving to go start somewhere new. But that’s kinda why I got into hosting trips is because I, I wanna fly fish year round. I’m not in the ski industry. I’m not one of those guides that guides a little bit and then does something else. And the off season, I mean, I, my heart, my soul is in fly fishing year round. So the best way for me to, to do that was to try to put these trips together, put these group trips together, which has been awesome. I mean, you know, you could consider it a full-time living now. Just putting groups together, putting trips together all over the place. Josh (42m 8s): So that was how I was able to stay in fly fishing year round. Yeah. That’s it. You know, and kind of nurturing my, my clientele base where I was selling these people on while I’m out guiding them, I’m selling them on a fishing trip elsewhere because we have such a good time together, you know? Yep. Dave (42m 25s): And when you’re on the lakes, you were mentioning, is that, you know, the lakes that you’re fish or do you think every lake, most lakes out there have these types of sand flat sort of thing where you can fish sight fish for trout. Josh (42m 39s): Yeah. Dave (42m 39s): And this is trout that are basically coming in like they do, right? They come from the deep, depending on the water temperatures and all that. And then they, they come to the shadow, the littoral zone, and they, they feed more. Is that kind of what, what you’re doing? And you’re just definitely, you’re elevated. You got your, and I’m looking at a boss, 22 foot boss of whaler, which looks like a, a boat you could take out on the ocean. I mean, is that boat also? Oh, definitely. Yeah. So it’s a full on, but your client is on the deck just above. So they could see things and you could see things and you can cite fish and like for, is this dryly stream? What are you using with the sight fishing? Josh (43m 10s): So there is a dryly window. And that’s exciting. That’s really fun. ’cause these are cutthroat. Dave (43m 17s): Oh, they’re cutthroat still. So these are still cutthroat in lakes. Josh (43m 20s): Yep. Amazing. And so cutthroat love dry flies. So if you hit it right, I mean, it’s like bone fishing, but with dry flies, you know, it may flies Cass, but that’s kind of a short window. A lot of times the fish are suspended above the weed beds and we’re fishing a small leach to ’em, or you know, a dry dropper nim thing. You know, there’s, there’s a lot of different tactics and there’s so much more that goes into it. I mean, I play the sun, I play the wind, you know, and it’s really rewarding for me when it all lines up and, alright, the fish should be here and they are here and, you know, it’s just awesome. Dave (43m 56s): Yeah. What’s your window for lake fish? I know all lakes are different size and stuff, but typically, when do you think think’s a good time to be hitting the lakes? Josh (44m 4s): I would say June, July. Dave (44m 5s): Okay, so you wanna hit the summer? Josh (44m 6s): Yeah. Yeah, June july it gets the surface temps get a little warm in August, and so the fish are gonna go a little deeper, but then again in September, October, so it can be a year round thing, or not a year round thing, but all summer at least. Dave (44m 22s): Yeah, all summer. Wow. Yeah. Sounds like you’ve built a pretty amazing operation from the, like we said, taking it back to Jack Dennis and, you know, and, and then up to present day. What, what else are we, you know, leaving that we haven’t chatted about here? Any, any other big things you wanna hit on before we get outta here? Any trips or anything else? Josh (44m 42s): Man, not so much. Let me think about that. Yeah. Dave (44m 45s): Well, I’ve got a few more questions for you. I just wanna make sure we don’t miss anything specific, you know, for people listening. But I wanted to hear, you know, as you’re thinking about that, just on Jackson Hole, for somebody who hasn’t been there, what, what is it, what’s the thing? What, what do you think brings 6 million people to Jackson Hole? Is there, is that one thing? Is that a bunch of things? Josh (45m 4s): I think it’s a bunch of things. I think the fact that we have two national parks right here, you know, I think a lot of people are craving the outdoor life and the outdoor experiences that I get to live every day. You know, if you live in a city family vacations are gonna look like, you know, driving to a place like this where you can horseback ride, you know, you can fish, you can sightsee, hike. I mean, the outdoor industry is growing a lot. It is. And I think it’s cool because in order to protect a place you have to fall in love with it first. And I think for people to see, you know, Jackson and see that there’s an entire industry, like, we don’t have, we don’t really have an industry out here besides tourism and the outdoor industry. Josh (45m 48s): And so for people to see, you know, guys like me raising a family in a place like this, guiding fishermen, I think it’s just cool to introduce people to that other lifestyle, you know? And it’s not all about chasing money. No. It’s more about quality of life and, you know, just living a healthy, positive life and living in a great place like this. I mean, that’s worth millions of dollars right there. Yeah. Dave (46m 15s): It’s it’s pretty spectacular. It’s, and it’s not just one thing I think, you know, the Tetons obviously are, are crazy, right? How you can just Josh (46m 23s): Look at Oh yeah. At these Dave (46m 24s): Jag I remember the first time I saw the Tetons, it was just like, whoa. And then, and then you got Buffalo, right? You got all these things that, and then you could fish the, these rivers fly fish and what, what with literally animals, you know? I mean, and then it’s Yellowstone, right? You got Yellowstone that I think, which is, is it the top national park in the country as far as visitation? It’s either one or two, right? Josh (46m 44s): It’s gotta be up there. Yeah. I mean, and it’s the first national park. Dave (46m 47s): Yeah. And it’s the first, right. And you got that whole history Josh (46m 49s): There, right? So yeah, so much history and we’re like the gateway of, of these beautiful places. I mean, Jackson is front and center. We’re, if you drive a hundred miles in any direction, you’re gonna have like unlimited wilderness, you know? Yeah. But then on top of all that, we have an airport, we have amazing nightlife, we have music, we have restaurants, you know, so it really is like one of those incredible places in the west. Yeah. Dave (47m 17s): That is incredible. What is the closest big city to you guys? Bigger city. Josh (47m 23s): So Salt Lake. Dave (47m 24s): Oh, salt Josh (47m 24s): Lake. Yeah. Salt Lake’s about four hours away. Dave (47m 27s): Yeah. Salt Lake. Okay. Nice. Nice. Well, no, I think this is a good way. I just wanted to set the stage today just for, you know, I was thinking Jackson Hole, you know, I think we’ve done a good job of picturing people coming into that area and just, you know, if they don’t know about this spot, you know, obviously it’s already on the map, but, but I’ve got a couple random ones. You’ve kind of got me thinking here. You mentioned music, you know, kind of drink food, stuff like that. Let’s start with a restaurant. Let’s say somebody’s coming through Jackson Hole. What is, is there a place you’d recommend what is, there must be a number of great places, but they’re going out to eat. Where should they head? Josh (48m 2s): Wow. Yeah. There’s this, there’s so many great restaurants here. So I would say, how about we do top three? Dave (48m 8s): Oh, nice. I love it. And Josh (48m 10s): I come from kind of a fine dining background ’cause my dad was a chef. Oh wow. And so I’m gonna do fine dining. Perfect. So if you’re looking for like a beautiful date night or a celebration, number one would be, now let’s start with the third. Dave (48m 25s): Okay. Yeah, let’s do top three down. Josh (48m 27s): Okay. Top three. So I would say trio. Dave (48m 30s): Trio? Josh (48m 31s): Yep. Trio. And then after that I would do the kitchen and then probably the top restaurant out here would be the Snake River Grill. Dave (48m 40s): Okay. Snake River Grill. Josh (48m 42s): Yep. Dave (48m 43s): Okay. And what’s the, what type of food is that? Josh (48m 45s): You know, it’s like an American sort of pub. It’s, it’s, but it’s like elevated, it’s really quality local food, local farms. And then the kitchen, I guess would be maybe a little bit more like sushi. And then Snake River Grill would be like steaks. Dave (48m 60s): Yeah, steaks, you Josh (49m 1s): Know. Perfect. Dave (49m 2s): That’s it. Yeah. You gotta have some stakes out in that country. Josh (49m 5s): Oh Dave (49m 5s): Yeah. Yeah. Good. Okay. So we got some, we got a few restaurants. What about the, you mentioned the music. What, what’s that look like? Do you, do you have some, are there some events that you are, that are out there? There’s, are there other, or will you listen to for music? Yeah, Josh (49m 19s): I mean we have like tons of music here. There’s there any given night at the Cowboy Bar, there’s a live band, Teton Village on Sunday nights, all summer long, has free concerts. And then at the top of Snow King is a relatively new venue, but there’s all sorts of music up there. So it’s cool because you have to take the gondola up there. Dave (49m 41s): Oh, nice. Josh (49m 41s): Yeah. And the food trucks actually drive along the, the cat tracks the switchbacks all the way up to the top of Snow King, huh? Yeah, so I mean, I saw Old Crow Medicine show up there. Oh, nice. Yeah, Dave (49m 55s): There you go. Josh (49m 56s): Yeah, it’s an amazing place. I mean, we definitely have plenty of visitors here and there’s loads to do. I mean, whitewater rafting, horseback riding, hiking, wildlife tours, photography tours, fishing tours, hunting, you know, kayaking, hunting, you name it, there’s tons to do out here. Yeah. Dave (50m 13s): And lots of camp. Yeah. It’s pretty much everything. Camping, you know, with the national parks and you kinda, you name it. That’s cool. Well I think this has been a, a good, a good summary of kind of what you have going, what, what if, if somebody wanted to get a trip, it sounds like you’re pretty booked up. I and Scott has some other guides. When do you think is a good time to be looking at, you know, hitting the river up there? Josh (50m 35s): So kind of what I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast was my favorite time is probably, you know, if you can get here before the crowds, like late March into April. The other thing about that time of year is the guides aren’t burnt out yet, you know? Yeah. After a long summer it, it gets pretty tiring. But like early season before runoff, runoff usually starts when the snow melts like mid May, early May, and then the rivers are high and off color for a good month. Dave (51m 7s): For a month. So are you guys taking a break? What’s going on in that month? Josh (51m 11s): Well, luckily all, all the lakes start to thaw. Dave (51m 13s): Oh, okay. So, Josh (51m 15s): And there are some tailwater like right, right below the dam we still fish the snake, but a lot of the snow and upper elevation ice is definitely starting to melt. So that’s kind of when we start hitting lakes. So there’s always an experience out here. Yeah. I mean you could even, you could even come out here in February And we could, we could get a pair of snowshoes for you And we hike into the river. I mean there’s experiences all year, you know, so Dave (51m 41s): Yeah. So it’s pretty open I guess depending on your time, you know, if, I guess if you’re coming up with the family whenever you’re coming up for your vacation, you know, that might be a time you can check in and see what you guys have open. Exactly. Josh (51m 52s): Yeah. The best time to fish is whenever you’re able. Dave (51m 55s): Yeah, when you have time. Exactly. That’s the thing about fly fishing is that, yeah, sometimes you can’t choose exactly the date, but, but this has been awesome Josh. I think, like you said, we’ll we’ll send everybody out to Grand Teton fly fishing if they wanna check in with you or with Scott or anybody else and get some information there. Just wanna thank you for your time today. This has been great. Love the stories we’ve talked about getting into Cuba and some of the other Tahiti and some of that stuff has been great. So yeah, I’m looking forward to staying in touch with you this year and yeah, we’ll, we’ll definitely keep in touch. Josh (52m 25s): Awesome. Thanks a lot Dave. Thanks for having me on man. Dave (52m 30s): Call to action today if you’re interested in checking in, if you’re gonna be out in that neck of the woods, grand Teton, national Parks, Yellowstone, anywhere out there, check in with Josh, check in with Grand Teton, fly fishing and find out if they have availability. I think not only streams but some of that Lake Steelwater stuff would be pretty cool. All right, before we get outta here, a couple for more things. Apple podcast, Spotify, or whatever app you’re on listening Right now. If you click that plus button and follow the show, you’re gonna get that next one delivered to your inbox and, and you don’t wanna miss out on the next week’s episode as we’ve got Tommy Lynch back on the podcast. This is one of our biggest streamer episodes of all time. A couple, almost three years back. We’re bringing him back on for round two and Tommy’s gonna get back into it with three as we go deep on a bunch of amazing topics. Dave (53m 16s): He’s Tommy’s out in the Michigan area, one of the big streamer guys around the country. You don’t wanna miss that one. So follow the show and you’ll get updated when that comes out. Alright, I’m outta here. It’s late. No it’s not. Not late in the evening. It’s actually early in the evening, but I think it might be a late night tonight. So if you are having a late night tonight, or maybe it’s morning or maybe it’s afternoon, wherever it is, whatever time it is, wherever you are in the world, I appreciate you for sticking in all the way to the very end here and I hope to talk to you and connect with you online somewhere as we go. Thanks again. Talk to you soon.

Conclusion with Josh Gallivan on Fishing Snake River Cutthroat

If you plan to visit Grand Teton National Park, Yellowstone, or the surrounding areas, don’t forget to check in with Josh and Grand Teton Fly Fishing. Whether you’re looking to explore streams or experience some incredible lake fishing, there’s something for every angler. Get in touch and see if they have availability for your next adventure!

720 | Chinook on the Spey with Floyd Carter – Togiak River Lodge

By

Dave

-

February 17, 2025

We’re heading to Alaska to chase King Salmon in one of the last great strongholds for Chinook. Today, we’re joined by Floyd Carter, a passionate guide at Togiak River Lodge and beyond, who’s sharing expert tips on swinging for Chinook on a spey. He’ll take us back to his first season at Togiak, the unique spey camp they set up, and the lessons learned along the way.

Here’s what we’ll cover today:

The only two lines and flies you need for Togiak
How to get your cast out even with zero room for a D-loop
Why you don’t have to be a mega hucker to land big Kings

Quick Reminder…

We just launched a giveaway for a trip to Togiak River Lodge! Enter now at wetflyswing.com/giveaway for a chance to win. We’ll announce the winner next week!

Show Notes with Floyd Carter on Chinook on the Spey. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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About Floyd Carter

Floyd grew up fishing in Colorado but got hooked on swinging flies after a trip to Seattle. A chance encounter with Dave Mccoy of Emerald Water Anglers led to his first spey casting experience—in leaky waders! That moment sparked a three-year plan to move to the Pacific Northwest and chase anadromous fish.

He trained with Tom Mahan, learning the ins and outs of spey casting while exploring the Oregon and California coasts. After leaving Oklahoma, he saved up, went all-in on guiding, and took a chance on a new life.

His first big break came when he helped build a remote spey camp on the Togiak River with a “wacky bush carpenter.” That led to his first guiding gig for King Salmon on the Togiak, where he also met Zack and Jordan Larsen.

Check out our episode with Zack and Jordan of Togiak River Lodge.

Episode Chapters with Floyd Carter on Chinook on the Spey

07:05 – Floyd had some great mentors who helped him transition from bass fishing in Oklahoma to being a spey guide in the Pacific Northwest. He met Tom Mahan through Emerald Waters, and while Tom got a good laugh out of Floyd’s goal, he still gave him the guidance he needed.

When Floyd landed in Oregon, he walked into Portland Fly Shop and told Jason Osborne his plan. Jason was skeptical at first but ended up being a huge supporter. Eventually, Floyd connected with Jack Mitchell at The Evening Hatch, who started sending him steady work.

Jack was actually one of the first guests on the podcast! If you want to hear his story, check out The Evening Hatch Fly Fishing Shop with Jack Mitchell – Steelhead Fishing, Klickitat.

Chinook vs. Steelhead – What’s the Difference in the Take?

10:49 – Floyd sums it up: “Rockets versus semi-truck.” Steelheads are explosive and unpredictable, while Chinook feels like an unstoppable force. He says the sheer weight of a Chinook makes every fight feel like you’re getting towed behind a boat.

How Do You Cast from a High Bank?

18:34 – Casting from a high bank with no room for a D-loop is tricky, but it’s possible. Floyd explains that you need to adjust your casting angle, starting higher and sooner. The Perry Poke is a great option, but the best technique depends on the angler’s skill.

The goal isn’t a long, fancy cast; it’s getting the fly in the right zone. On the Togiak, floating heads work well, but sinking setups like a creeper or game-changer in high water can help get the fly down fast.

Spey Camp

23:43 – Floyd shares what it was like during the first year at Spey Camp. They had to deal with the harsh Alaska tundra. Floyd and the team worked hard to set up tents on a gravel bar and move camp when the camp was flooded.

Fishing for Steelhead

33:19 – Floyd talks about where he usually fishes for steelhead. He focuses on areas around Portland and the Columbia River. Some of his go-to spots include:

Klickitat River
Clackamas and Sandy Rivers
The lower Columbia and its tributaries
The Olympic Peninsula

Why is the O.P. the “Super Bowl” for Steelhead Fishing?

Floyd calls the Olympic Peninsula the “Super Bowl” for steelhead because it’s the place to catch a giant fish. The opportunity to hook a huge steelhead, maybe even a 20-pounder, makes it stand out.

Tips for Preparing for Togiak

37:33 – If you’re heading to Togiak, Floyd has some great advice to help you make the most of your trip.

Practice casting with heavier setups (9 or 10-weight rods).
Get comfortable with heavier lines (650 grains or more).
Work on muscle memory and rhythm by getting plenty of practice at your local casting pond.
Consider taking a casting lesson to speed up your learning curve.

Follow Floyd on Instagram 👉🏻 @thefloydc

Visit his website at CarterSpey.com

Related Podcast Episodes

WFS 538 – Togiak River Lodge with Zack and Jordan Larsen – Bristol Bay, Alaska Wildernes, King Salmon

WFS 002 – The Evening Hatch Fly Fishing Shop with Jack Mitchell – Steelhead Fishing, Klickitat

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript

Dave (2s): We are heading to Alaska this year to chase King Salmon in one of the remaining Alaskan strongholds for Kings. We’re focused on swinging up Chinook on a spay rod. We’ve heard some people on this podcast tell us that it doesn’t get any better than swinging for Kings. And today you’re gonna hear from one of our guides and some tips on optimizing for success. Whether you’re fishing for Kings, steelhead, or any MOUs fish, This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, how’s it going? I’m Dave host of the Wet Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. Dave (45s): Floyd Carter passionate guide at Togiak River Lodge and beyond is gonna share some of his experience and expertise on what it was like his first time up at Togiak. We’re gonna actually get into here about this space camp that they started out with the first year, and some really interesting stories behind that. And then we’re gonna find out what two lines and two flies you’re gonna only need for Togiac and how you can get your line out there. Even if you have no room for a dlo. You’re also gonna find out why you don’t have to be a mega hucker to have success on the Togiak this year. Quick reminder, before we get into it, we’ve just launched the giveaway, and if you want a chance to win a trip to Togiak River Lodge Right now, you can go to wet fiw.com/giveaway, enter your name and email, And we will follow up with you with our big announcement. Dave (1m 30s): Next week. We’ll be choosing the winner. Also, if you’re interested in finding out more, we’ve got a little information at the end of this episode. Oklahoma bred, turned into a spay junkie. Here we go. Floyd Carter, you can find him@carterspay.com. How you doing Floyd? Doing Floyd (1m 47s): Well, doing well, Dave. Good to be here. Dave (1m 49s): Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for coming on here. This is, you know, I, I talk to people all the time. I was just at a recent show chatting with some people and randomly ran into somebody who, you know, we were talking and he didn’t know who, you know, that I had the show. And then he realized, he is like, oh man, I listen to all the show all the time. And he said specifically, you know, the space stuff. Like he’s kind of getting into it and, you know, I think he’s got a few struggles, but I think we’re gonna talk about that today. And then also maybe how people can take it to the next level and get in and think about Chinook fishing, which is something we’ve chatted on here before. But before we get into all that today and talk about Togiak and, you know, some of the other areas you’re fishing throughout the year, bring us right back to fishing, fly fishing, you know, had to get into, have you been doing this a while? Floyd (2m 32s): Well, you know, back to your original statement, I sure do understand the struggle. Yeah. I, I’ve fished my entire life. You know, I bought a bass boat before I ever bought a, a vehicle. Oh, wow. And I did some fly fishing in Colorado. That’s where I, I grew up in the high school and college years. But as I moved around about 10 years ago, let’s see, yeah, it was probably about 10 years ago, I took a trip to Seattle with my sweetheart and she had a conference And we were piggybacking that into a vacation. And so I had a few days to wander and I ended up in Emerald Water anglers talking with Dave McCoy. Floyd (3m 18s): And the essence of that conversation was, you know, there’s not a man in your family unless you’re swinging flies for a natural miss fish. Right. And I said, well, open up your books ’cause I’ve just got time on my hands. And so Jason picked me up from our swanky hotel, took me to the sky, comish put me in some leaky waiters. I came out at the end of the day looking like a baby giraffe. And on the flight home, my sweetheart and I were making our three year plan to move to the Pacific Northwest. ’cause I told her I was gonna be a spay guide. Wow. Floyd (3m 59s): So during that three year period in Oklahoma, I kept flying back out. I realized the skillset that was required and the investment, and I ended up getting paired up with Tom Mayhan from, from Swing Water. And he and I hit it off and Tom graciously put me under his wing and just went up and down the northern California, Oregon, southern Oregon coast, and some of those trips and, and just did a full deep dive into spay and, you know, the casting and reading water and rowing and all of the things I had a severe deficit in. Floyd (4m 45s): And we got out here and I had saved up and went full tilt and, you know, did a lot of poor diet, poor sleeping. Yeah. Heavy doses of caffeine, and just kind of tried to make my way into the game. And fortunate was lucky enough to get referred to Derek Boxford from Tom Mayhan for a program on the Togiac that they were starting and talked with Derek, signed up for it, and met Stevie on the Togiac. And he and I, and this wacky bush carpenter built a spa camp just down river from Togiak Lodge. Floyd (5m 35s): And it was a challenge And it was, you know, beautiful. It was, it was all the things that you would expect in building a spa camp in the middle of nowhere. And that’s where I also met Zach and Jordan. And they are, they’re wonderful human beings. Yeah. They’re, and you know, that was, that was my first official paid gig was the Togiak Summer. Dave (6m 5s): Wow. No kidding. And yeah. So that was it. So you jumped right into the, I mean, it’s pretty amazing. Right, right. And was this right into King Chinook fishing? Floyd (6m 14s): Yes. Yeah. That was the first guided fish that I ever got to hand. Wow. Dave (6m 19s): That was So what was, what was that like, Floyd (6m 22s): I have that photo. I have that photo in my mom’s house. That’s how sentimental it was. Dave (6m 27s): This was the first fish that you caught with the first fish your client got into first Floyd (6m 30s): Client fish. Oh, Dave (6m 32s): Wow. What was that like? That first client getting the fish? Floyd (6m 35s): It was, you know, you’re suspended, you know, anybody in the game knows what you put into it and the travel, the expenses, the time and effort and practice. And so the reward was, was everything you can imagine. Dave (6m 54s): Wow, that’s pretty amazing. So you had a, you sound like you had some pretty amazing mentors, or at least one big one along the way. What, what and what was Tom’s, what’s his bag? I’m not totally familiar with Tom. Floyd (7m 5s): Tom. So Tom’s a NorCal guy that’s been just about everywhere. Oh, okay. And he cut his teeth on the Trinity, but at the time that we hooked up, he was doing work for Emerald Waters, and that’s how we got connected. And we just hit it off. I told him what the goal was. He kind laughed at this dude from Oklahoma, who’s a bass fisherman, was now wanting to be a spay guide. You know, and I’ve kind of run into that in the best possible way. So when we landed here, you know, I walked into Portland Fly shop with Jason Osborne and told him, you know, my spiel. Floyd (7m 48s): And in his, you know, skeptical way, he kinda sized me up and has been, you know, nothing but generous and supportive along the way. And eventually was referred to Jack Mitchell with the Evening Hatch. And Oh yeah, Jack and I have, have got a great, great thing going with regards to, he sends me a lot of work and anytime I can get on the water with any of those individuals, it’s always education. Yeah, Dave (8m 21s): Yeah. It is. No, you, you’ve mentioned a few great people and, and I know, I know most of ’em, Dave McCoy, I mean, and Jason, Jack Mitchell, they’re all people that we’ve connected with, actually had on the podcast. And Jack Mitchell was, I wanna say episode number two. I mean, we’re up to, I think you’re gonna be episode 700 and something, but Jack was, you know, when I first got going on this, you know, he kind of stepped up and actually helped me. You know what I mean? So I, I know how cool he is and, and everybody else, but, but that’s awesome. So now you’re, you’re in it, you know, what was it about the spay for you coming from Oklahoma? Because obviously there’s fishing all around the country. What was the, the hook for you? Why did you just, it feels like you all, you went all in on this. Dave (9m 3s): Was there one thing? Floyd (9m 5s): It’s the thing, right? Yeah. It’s, the thing is the practice, the reading, the water, the cast, the tempo, you know, you get totally, I feel like with a brain like mine, there is the ability to find a little bit of peace on the water when you’re, because it does require a certain amount of focus. And there was something appealing about that. It just clicked. And, you know, I’m 12 years sober, I have an addict. Wow. And I have an addict wiring, you know, that is my circuitry. And it just appeals to that because, you know, you get in the zone, you’re covering water, you’re blasting some decent casts. Floyd (9m 53s): Yeah. You’re in it. Right. You’re lulled into that hypnosis and then all hell breaks loose and you’re a kite in a hurricane, and whatever chemical surge is, is occurring. Once that happened, I was done for Dave, I was done for Yeah, you’re in the swung fly take was the chasing the dragon from here on out. Dave (10m 18s): Yeah. That, that’s what I, it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what it is, but it feels like the take is the one, you know, one of the big things, and it’s part of that you never know, you know, the fact that you could be there for some places for, you know, days, weeks, years, maybe without getting a take. And then other places, you know, you might get more, more feedback. But it, but it is that question. Right. You don’t, it’s so challenge. I think you got the challenging part. It’s hard. Do you think when you look at Chinook versus Steelhead, and you do you do steelhead, you do some guiding with steelhead too? Floyd (10m 49s): Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. I’m looking forward to going to the op here in two weeks. Oh, nice. For about 40 days. Yep. Right, Dave (10m 55s): Right, right. So, we’ll, we’ll talk a little about that too, but, but the Chinook versus the steelhead thing, right? There’s a lot of similarities, but the take is different. Right. Maybe talk about that. What’s your take on, on the take, the Chinook take versus the steelhead? Floyd (11m 8s): The take of the take. Yeah. You know, the only thing, you know, rockets versus semi-truck. Yeah, right. You know, that’s kind of the distinction for me. The steelhead, there’s a element or lack of control in that explosiveness. The chinook for me, the weight, the heft of those fish. Right. Just, it feels unstoppable, right. Yeah. And it is just, you know, like if you’re getting towed behind a boat, it’s just, I gotta hang on for dear life. Dave (11m 48s): Right? Yeah. That’s it. They’re just more power Floyd (11m 50s): There. It is. It is a power distinction. The steelhead is obviously, you know, has its acrobatics and you know, its nuances, but, you know, they’re both radical. I mean, you know, catching the right brown trout on a, you know, four or five weight set up is just a sick, you know? Yep. But there is something special about those, you know, lyd up, Chinook up there that, you know, as long as they’ll have me put it this way, as long as they’ll have me, I’ll be Dave (12m 23s): There. You’re going back. Yeah, that’s right. You got, and what do you guys have there? Do you go up there, you said, for a couple months there at Togiak? Floyd (12m 29s): No, it’s a pretty short window. I mean, we go for, I believe it’s about four or five weeks, I think we have four or five rotations come through, and then the boys start to fill up and, you know, but initially it’s the beginning of the season into the middle and, you know, it’s everything that it’s chalked up to me. Yeah. Dave (12m 52s): So if you take it to that, you know, if you go to that first fish, I mean, that was early when you were up there, but describe that a little bit. Do you remember that pretty well? Like the conditions, like the Oh yeah. Take everything. Yeah. What take us there, what, what was that like, what were you, were you, you know, what, what was the Yeah, set the stage. Floyd (13m 8s): Okay. So, you know, we’re there, Stevie and, and Jack and I are, are building this place, and we get it ready and the other guides come in and, you know, on the, the flight in with the, the client, the first round of clients, we have beautiful weather, water conditions, things are dropping. You’re starting to see the shape of the river and some of these runs. And then it decides to rain for about 15 days straight. Oh, wow. And these are, this is this big water, you know, 40, 50,000 cfs. Dave (13m 49s): Oh, wow. So it came way up Floyd (13m 51s): And, you know, you’re, you’re put into varsity casting positions, you know, where you really, you need to be able to get it done and get it out there and, and some can and some can’t. And you do what you can. And then about the, let’s see, I think it was the second rotation thing started to shape up, And we had picked up the crew in the morning, dropped off the other crew, got ’em oriented, And we got out on the water. And Kenny Morris was actually hosting that week. And so Kenny was on the boat with me. Floyd (14m 31s): We went and fished a, a lower run. We’re about 30 minutes into the day we saw some movement. And my guy hooks in and Kenny was there to memorialize it with some great photographs. And it was, you know, the first, it was the first one of the crew. It was the second fish of the season. Oh, wow. You know, this was, these were a little more seasoned anglers. So, you know, that always helps. But yeah, it was just sunny. We had finally dropping into shape finally in positions where it could get done. Dave (15m 11s): God, that must have been a good day, a good night on, on Togiak after that. Floyd (15m 15s): Oh man. I mean, we were, we were ecstatic And it, it slowly but surely ramped up from that point on. Dave (15m 23s): Oh, it did. So it got better. It Floyd (15m 25s): Did. It genuinely, it improved each day. And, you know, we had our board and the guides, we’d meet up every meeting or every night and see who needs what. And, you know, if there were certain runs that were kind of our heavy hitters, then the people who needed one were put in a position to get one first. It didn’t matter who their guide was. And I really, I really liked that format of spreading the, the wealth out. Right. Dave (15m 55s): Spreading the love. That’s good. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay, so that was, and what, that guy that hooked up there, what was, do you remember the fly, the, the line he was using there? Or the Floyd (16m 5s): Tip? We were, let’s see, we had a T 14 and I think a reverse Maroo. Dave (16m 15s): Yeah. What? Black, Floyd (16m 16s): Purple pink. It was, Dave (16m 20s): I’ve heard pink is the only color you need in Alaska. You Floyd (16m 22s): Know, pink can get it done. Let’s just put it that way. But I think I was so wrapped up in getting that fish in the net because I, I missed the first stab. Oh, yeah. And oh, I was in a, I had a pucker moment. Dave (16m 40s): Oh, bet. What, what was the, what was the poundage? What size fish? Floyd (16m 45s): Oh, it was over 20. Dave (16m 47s): Oh it was, wow. So yeah, big fish. Yeah. Is that, is that the size? Is that when you get over 20? Is that pretty much your You got a serious fish? Floyd (16m 54s): Yeah. Over twenties. Real fun. And then when, you know, when you find that those thirties, which there’s plenty of those, that’s something to behold as well. They’re all, they’re all cool, right? There’s no, yeah. Oh yeah. There’s no bad fish. But, you know, I’m still a knuckle dragger. I still want that. I want that big one, you know? Oh, yeah. I mean, I’m not gonna sugar coat. I, I want that. I will fish for less fish, but the fish, you know what I mean? Oh yeah, Dave (17m 24s): Yeah, yeah. Is there a mix? Do you occasionally find small or a lot smaller fish and maybe even jacks? Are you catching some of those Sometimes? Floyd (17m 31s): Yeah. So there’s, there’s plenty of what the boys have coined as super jacks up there, Dave (17m 37s): Which are like 20 inches or something like that. Floyd (17m 39s): They’re like, you know, in that 12 to 15 pound category. Right. That’s, that’s what they call super jacks. And anything upwards of that is considered it an adult. And yeah, it’s a river designed for swinging. Dave (17m 56s): It is. Why, why is that? Why, why is the togiak compared to ’cause you fish and the cool thing is you fish California kinda all around, it sounds like, how is the togiak perfect for swinging? Like, talk about that a little bit. Floyd (18m 8s): It’s just that, you know, tundra effect. Oh. You know, it’s the, you know, the elevation. Not a lot of, I mean, just the easiest waiting you can imagine. Not long swingy runs. Yeah, Dave (18m 21s): Right. Like gravel. Gravel. There’s not a bunch of like wood and big burgers and Floyd (18m 25s): Stuff like that. No, no. If you get hung up on the togiak, you’re not paying attention. Dave (18m 29s): Oh, right. That’s cool. So that’s good. That’s a big thing. ’cause you’re getting down, right? You are touching the bottom occasionally with your Floyd (18m 34s): Tips. Yeah, yeah. And obviously, you know, there are scenarios where you want to be in a high bank situation and you, I mean, you might have zero casting room from behind, but if that’s where the fish are, there are ways to get that done. And, and most are willing to go past their comfort zone to do that. Then not comfort zone as far as safety, but comfort zone is casting ability. And that’s where, you know, that’s where if you’re doing your job as a guide, you give them the confidence and the, you know, ability to execute those casts. And there, there are a couple spots on the togiac that, you know, you’ll be standing on the bank, you’ll have no room for that D loop, but it’s possible, you know, it is possible you could turn that fly over. Dave (19m 23s): Yeah. How do you do that when you’re on the bank? How do you do a spa cast when you’re standing on the bank? Floyd (19m 27s): You just put your platform or your canvas out in front of you, you know, and the arc of that D loop is essentially what you’re designing. So you just start things higher and sooner, you know, and further out, Dave (19m 42s): Further out. Is this where you would use the, like the Perry Poke sort of thing? That Floyd (19m 46s): Exactly, yeah. Or, you know, yeah, there’s a couple different ways to get the same thing accomplished. But you know, it’s usually, I would say angler specific, you know, to what they’re proficient at. And usually, you know, a couple demos that cater to their strength. And, you know, if, especially on the high bank, you don’t have to make a, a hero cast of 80, 90 feet, you know, you’re just trying to get it down into the zone. And with these integrated systems now, it’s not that difficult to bury that fly and get it in the column that you’re trying, that you believe that they’re at. Dave (20m 29s): Right. Are you using, for the line, are you using a similar line that you would use for steelhead? Or what is that line you’re using on Toia? Floyd (20m 36s): Yeah, on toga, pretty much I was, you know, I was doing mostly floating heads. Every now and then I would throw, just depending on the water height, you know, high water situations, I, I’ll throw a, a creeper or a game changer just to, you know, just to sink it down as fast as possible. Dave (20m 57s): Yeah. And so the folding line to describe the creeper, the game changer, what are those, how are those connected? Those are Floyd (21m 2s): Just, you know, integrated heads that are, you know, float, intermediate sync, sync three, sync five, and you know, with a chunk of T 11 or T 14 and a weighted bug, you know? Yeah. Dave (21m 14s): And the advantage of the, the advantage of the, the, well, the dry line is that you got more of your lines easier to cast. Right. It little bit Floyd (21m 21s): Much easier. Yeah, much easier. I, I was just gonna add that that setup I just described isn’t the most pleasant, you know, to swing. But if you get the dynamics of it, you know, moving in the right direction, it’s, it can be effective in the right scenario. So, you know, but yeah, we all wanna be casting, you know, and looking great and throwing our, our floating heads and long leaders and light flies. But that’s not always on the menu. Dave (21m 51s): No, no. Sometimes you gotta get, get down a little bit. Do you talk about the fly? Is that typically what, what’s the range that you’re using up there to stay on Chinook for a little bit on Togiak, Floyd (22m 1s): You know, usually those roughly three inch flies, a lot of maribo weighted unweighted, depending on the circumstance in the run. But, you know, black and sharp truths, pink and purple, pink and orange. As you said, pink, pink, pink is pretty, pretty hard to beat in Alaska when it comes to salmon. But yeah, there’s, there’s not too many. It’s, you know, in, I’m on my fifth year of guiding now, and you know, I, I know our brains have had enough of these late night conversations or early coffee conversations, and it’s best for a knucklehead like me to not complicate it too much. Floyd (22m 51s): And after some time on the water and getting the feedback that you get, it essentially comes down to two line systems and two flies like that. I mean, after all the churching up we like to do, and, you know, all of the, the little tweaks we like to make, it just comes down to two lines and two flies for Dave (23m 16s): Me. Two lines. And what, and what are those, just to clarify? Floyd (23m 19s): No, I mean, it just, it’s just site specific, right? Once you’ve done your homework and you’ve, you’ve gone to the lab and you’ve, you know, put it in use in the field, essentially you’re getting feedback from, you know, two systems, a floating system, an integrated system, a a, a non weighted bug, and, you know, a lightly weighted bug or, or whatever, you know? Yeah. Dave (23m 43s): Yeah. That’s it. Okay. And I’m interested, the space camp is, I think it’s interesting because I think Stevie, you guys kinda started out in the program where you had this camp, and now I think you’ve moved more into Togiac, but talk about that camp. I’m interested to hear like what is, I’m picturing something, but describe the space camp. What, what was it like? You did it for like a couple years or a few years? Floyd (24m 1s): We did it for one year. Oh, Dave (24m 3s): Just one. Okay. So what, so what, so it wasn’t the easy, it wasn’t as easy as going to Togiac then? Floyd (24m 9s): No, no. Now that we do it through the lodge, that is what I call a crush velvet. Right? It is, is Honey Boo Booo lifestyle compared to what we did that first year. Dave (24m 22s): Yeah. Did you guys have to like, because you, what you do is you go from Anchorage, then you take a plane over to the town of Togiak, right? The, the Correct. And then from there, you hop on a jet. Did you guys do the same thing where you hopped on a sled with a bunch of gear and tents and all this stuff and just went up there? Floyd (24m 36s): Exactly. Yeah, we had a shipping container that had all of the stuff, you know, the site that they had originally planned, I believe fell through. So they had to pivot pretty fast. And this is all during Covid, so you have those, those complications as well. And you know, Stevie and Jack and I would get up every day, grab the saw and the scalp blade and, you know, try and inform some sort of platform of the frozen, gnarly Alaska tundra. Dave (25m 12s): Oh, wow. So you were out there in the tundra Yes. Trying to build, like, the platform to put your tents on. Floyd (25m 18s): Yeah. And by platform, we’re not talking about like wood decks or anything, we’re just talking about flat space to throw these canvas tents on and, you know, had a gravel bar that I think I ended up doing. I think I counted because it was a badge of honor, like, I think 36 different loads of 10 buckets of gravel to kind of fill in some of the holes, you know, and walking up those banks and Oh man. And, you know, it’s just, Dave (25m 51s): You made your pay, you made your pay. That, that, that year Floyd (25m 54s): I feel like I made, I made a contribution to the, to the cause and, you know, it was beautiful. We kind of lined the guest tents out on a ridge. And to call it a ridge is, I mean, we’re talking about two, three feet of difference in elevation Dave (26m 13s): Right. From the river. And, and do you had, did you have any issues with, you mentioned the 50,000 CFS what if that flow would’ve come up? Floyd (26m 20s): Well, it did come up And it flooded camp. Dave (26m 24s): Oh, it did. So you, so you had flood camp was flooded? Floyd (26m 27s): Yes. And I, I have pictures of where the guide tent was, and that we were shin deep in water. Oh yeah. And so we had to just make it happen on the fly, and the guests were ready to tap out. And it just so happened that it worked out that the next round of guests were already in Anchorage and they wanted to come. And so we were waiting for the, the fog ceiling to lift so that the pilot could get our guys out and bring us a whole new crew. And in that two and a half hour window, we moved the entire camp to the driest space that we could in that area that we had cleared. Floyd (27m 16s): It was a pit crew moment, it was all hands on deck. Oh, wow. And, you know, it worked out. We made it work, you know. Dave (27m 25s): You did. So you got a full season in there. You guys didn’t have to, you didn’t have to pack up halfway through it and then no. Kind of hang your head and go, Floyd (27m 31s): No, we dug in, we dug in, we were, we were there, we were in it. Dave (27m 35s): Yeah. In retrospect, it seems like those are always the times where when you’re in it, it’s like, oh my God, this is like the end of the world. But then you get out and you have like, the great story. Do you look back on it now as like, more fond memories? Or is it still painful? Floyd (27m 47s): Oh, no, it’s quite painful. Dave (27m 49s): Yeah, it is. Floyd (27m 50s): Yeah. It’s painful in, in a, in a good way. Like you’re describing, you know, like I said, this was my first gig, Dave (27m 58s): Right? Yeah. And this was your first Alaska gig. Like, Floyd (28m 0s): This was my first gig period, Dave. Dave (28m 2s): Oh wow. This is, right. You’re, you’re just in it. So you’re, you’re learning everything. And, Floyd (28m 6s): You know, every morning I would take a moment before I stepped out of the guide tent, and I would just have a little conversation with the universe. And essentially it was a one-way conversation that said, you know, this is what you wanted. So you want to be a spay guide. Okay, here you go. That’s Dave (28m 29s): So good. That’s so good. Because it’s like the ultimate, right? You just described the start, like you wanted to be a spay guide and now you’re in this place where it’s the most extreme, you know, like, it, I can’t imagine anything more extreme than literally you’re camping in Alaska, which can change right quickly, and you guys are just battling, and then you’re in the middle of it, and then you’re deciding, like, and then after the season two, so you get back Now at any point after that season is over, are you sitting there thinking, man, I don’t know if I wanna be a spay guide? Floyd (28m 57s): Nope, you’re Dave (28m 58s): Not. So you’re, you’re all in. Floyd (28m 60s): Nope. That just sealed the deal. Oh wow. For me, I thought to myself, this was what it was with the challenges that it presented and the hours and the, the sweat equity and the stoke was still there. And, and that was my measure, that this is a, a path for me. Dave (29m 21s): Wow. Okay. So that’s the spay camp. And then the next year, do you guys roll into, into Togiak Lodge? Well, Floyd (29m 27s): They did. Stevie had brought in with Chris Childs had brought in some people for the next two years and had kinda worked out what, you know, the program details and logistics would look like. And then last year we did, you know, a full program at the lodge, which was such a different experience, you know, just being dry and having amenities and rolling up and being able to gas your, you know, not having to make fuel runs and trash runs. I mean, everything, all the conveniences of Lodge life. Dave (30m 9s): Who was cooking on the spay camp? Floyd (30m 12s): We had a camp hand who, you know, for all intensive purposes was probably a little green. Didn’t quite understand. I don’t think any of us really had. Dave (30m 25s): Yeah, you didn’t know. Like, you probably even Stevie probably didn’t know what the, what you were getting into Roy probably. Floyd (30m 29s): But no, we, we all pitched in and cooked when we could and when it was required, you know, Alex, and I’m not gonna say Alex’s last name because I will butcher it, but Alex would help him with breakfast, I would help with dinner. We were doing a split shift, so we wanted to stay out of the lodge’s way. This is the first year because they had a full season going full lodge going. So we would fish from 4:00 AM to 11:00 AM have our essentially our big meal at lunch, which was the dinner that they would be serving at the lodge. Floyd (31m 10s): And then we would go back out at 4:00 PM and fish till about nine or 10:00 PM Oh, Dave (31m 16s): Wow. Yeah. So you broke it up. Floyd (31m 18s): Yeah. And that, that split shift was interesting, you know, because there’s always things to be done to prepare for the next round and whether it’s a meal or gear and boat and whatever the camp requires. So yeah, that w that put another factor into it that was part of the beauty of the challenge. Right, right. Dave (31m 43s): We’ve heard many of the stories on this podcast. Togiak River Lodge is one of the great destinations for Swain flies, for Chinook stripping for coho all day, and unwinding in a lodge right on the riverbank of the Togiak River with access to all five salmon species plus rainbows, Dali Vardon and more. Togiak offers a true Alaskan experience picture over 30 miles of river season guides, high quality boats and low fishing pressure. It’s fly fishing Alaska at its best. I’ll be heading up the summer. So reach out to Jordan and the crew to see what dates they have available this year. You can learn more Right now at wet fly swing.com/togiak. That’s togiak. Dave (32m 23s): T-O-G-I-A-K Alaskan fly fishing like you’ve always dreamed about. So you guys, so you guys survived that and then, and then at Togiak, so you’re there now. You were there this last year. It’s 25. So in 24 you were there like a, a full season, Floyd (32m 40s): Correct? Dave (32m 40s): Yeah. Or for the, the Chinook. And then, and then was that pretty? Yeah, like we’re saying just pretty nice. That’s pretty much rollout. You got food ready to go, you kinda get, you’re going, you guys, Floyd (32m 49s): I mean we, we order off a breakfast menu, you know, the gals come out and take our order, you know, the gas tank is right there, the boats are right there, you know, you just round up your folks for the day and you know, we’ve already discussed who’s hitting what beats and, And we are off and running and come back clean up, you know, get outta your waiters, hang them up. It was just luxury. Luxury, right. Dave (33m 18s): Yeah, Floyd (33m 19s): Luxury. Dave (33m 19s): So you, so you get the toga. What, what is the, And we might, we will probably swing back to Togiak, but I’m kinda curious, you mentioned, you know, at the start, some of the different areas, you know, have you fished like steelhead wise, I guess we could take it there, I’m guessing. Or have you fished Chinook, you know, salmon species? Any other areas other than, you know, up there? Floyd (33m 37s): Just only as, as incidental really. Dave (33m 41s): Yeah. Right. So you’ve been more steelhead has been what you’ve done? Floyd (33m 44s): Yeah, when I’m in the lower 48, I’m, I’m usually pursuing steelhead or trout. Dave (33m 49s): Okay. Steelhead or trout. And what are the steelhead, what are some of the areas or, you know, you’re fishing for steelhead kind of on a regular basis? Or are you fished the last few years? Floyd (33m 58s): I’d say probably a couple of the, the lower Columbia basins are tributaries. You know, I, I love the Clta. I fish the Clets backyard here. I’m in Portland, so I fish the clack mess in the Sandy. I’ve been, I do guiding on the Neal when she’s in shape and then I head up to the op for, you know, the Super Bowl of Steelheading as far as what we have. And so that’s pretty much what I would consider my home base waters. Dave (34m 37s): That’s it. So you’re focused mostly on winter steelhead is your focus. Floyd (34m 41s): Yeah. And then, you know, obviously the summer and fall fish on the Clta and the cowls are definitely players. Dave (34m 50s): Yeah. Gotcha. What’s the, and the op, why is that the Super Bowl? What, what is it about, you know, for those that haven’t been up there, what, what, how is it different than the other ones you mentioned? The lower Columbia, the Cowlitz, stuff like that. Floyd (35m 1s): Well, I think it’s the potential for that encounter with the dinosaur, right? I mean, that’s always, it just feels like it’s there. Dave (35m 13s): You mean a better chance to get a big steelhead, a 20 pound or something like that? Floyd (35m 17s): Yeah, the math, the math feels like for once it might be in your favor to get that fish of a lifetime. And I know that’s not everybody’s jam, but you know, I’m, hey, I’m, I’m still green and I still want to go find that fish that makes me question my manhood and just wrecks me. That, that to me is where my pursuit is at. And you know, places like the hoe when you’re standing on the banks of the Hoe river and the conditions are what they are. It just, there’s really no, it is one of my favorite places on this planet that I’ve visited so far. Dave (35m 58s): Hmm. Yeah, the ho and the hose iss a big river. Pretty big, right? Yeah. Decent size. Yeah, like the size. It would be similar to like a, I don’t know, what, what would be the comparison river like, is is that different? A lot different? Floyd (36m 10s): Yeah. Yeah, that’s probably a good comparison. You know, anything probably under 4,000 is optimal. You know, they, they rage up and the Neals the same way. It’s just a, you know, it’s just a kind of a different substrate. There’s something about that gravelly, what Jack Mitchell would call that glacial water. You know, it’s glacier runoff in clay banks that has this unique tint. You know, you got elk crossing the stream, you’ve got the Olympic range behind you, snow caps, and you’ve got every shade of green you could imagine with the ferns and the mosses. Floyd (36m 52s): And it’s just, it’s just land before time stuff. And yeah, it’s a special place to me. But, you know, each trip, anything from the, the Klamath and the Trinity to the Rogue, I mean they all, the Smith is another epic. I mean, they all have their unique characteristics that are appealing. I just, particularly when it comes to winter, I like to go to two places. I like to be on the Alem. I like to be on the, the Hope. And those are, yeah. Dave (37m 22s): Yep, those are, that’s it. Okay, cool. And, and so that’s a little on the steelhead. We, you know, we’re hopefully gonna be at Togiac this year, so are you gonna be there this year? Floyd (37m 32s): Absolutely. Dave (37m 33s): Yeah. Good. So that would be awesome to, you know, you know, kind of get, meet you in person and, and see some of this action on the water. What, what do you tell somebody, you know, and actually as we, as we’re talking, we’re kind of talking in the future here, but we’re, we have a giveaway going and, and somebody’s gonna win a chance to go up on, on this trip, that’s part of the deal here. But what would be for that person, whoever’s gonna win this trip to Togiak, what would you be telling that person? Like Right now, if that person’s listening to get ready for this? Like what would, if they’ve never saved fish for Chinook or maybe even spay, Floyd (38m 6s): I would say prepare. Yeah, I would say practice and, and, and get familiar with those, those heavier setups. Dave (38m 15s): Right. Which is what, what is that? Is that a nine? Floyd (38m 18s): Yeah, it’s a nine, you know, nine and 10 weights, 650 grains plus or minus thereof. And just get used to turning over something that’s got some dumbbell eyes and yeah. Prepare yourself to maximize the opportunity is what I would say, you know, because going up there and getting into a rhythm and then doing a day or two versus having some preparation and, you know, getting the lay of the land and being in your rhythm within two hours is quite a difference. Floyd (38m 59s): So I would say maximize your opportunity by preparing and going to your casting pond or your local water, putting those heavier systems in your hand and get a feel for it and get comfortable and get those reps, get that muscle memory so that you can just soak it in. Right. Dave (39m 17s): Maybe even get a lesson. Right. Floyd (39m 18s): Oh, 100% David. Yeah. Dave (39m 21s): Who would be, where would you go for that on the lesson? Like a spay lesson? I know, do you, where would you point somebody if they’re thinking like, man, I need a lesson, but I don’t know where to start. Floyd (39m 30s): You know, just depending on where you’re located, any of your fly shops, Dave (39m 34s): They’ll probably have something. So like Dave McCoy, Emerald, Jason, Floyd (39m 38s): Yeah. Abs Jason. They will point you in the right direction. And that is an investment that I encourage anybody. And, and look, I have been back almost a year from the to g from the, my first guide gig. And I went back out and paid for another lesson. I mean, I actually, I paid for two scratch that I paid for two. Like the evolution and the instruction and the perspective and the, the verbiage that others use and the technical ability that it all goes hand in hand with your recipe of success and that investment that time is well worth it. So instead of me out there beating my head, making the same mistakes, pushing with my top hand, rushing my forecast, my anchor placement, you know, having an objective lens behind you either videoing or watching like that will increase the learning curve significantly. Floyd (40m 39s): Yeah. And is well worth it and will relate to happy times on the water. It’s just, it’s a no-brainer getting instruction. Dave (40m 48s): Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think that’s, that’s probably the biggest take home we we have on here is that, you know, that’s, you know, and you obviously you’re spending lots of money on all this other stuff, so you might as well put a little bit of that investment into yourself. Right. Well, Floyd (41m 0s): Yeah. And most instructors, they’re not gonna bend you over a barrel for, for their time because there’s only so much you can absorb. Right. And so it’s gonna be an hour and a half session and you know, they’re gonna give you stuff to work on and you now go work on it and then you, and you come back to it. Dave (41m 21s): Is, is that how it kinda works with the, so that you, you know, you’re typical, maybe take it to your lesson. You, you go out there, you’ve got some experience, but it’s an hour and a half and you get there and it’s a little bit of watching the instructor maybe talk about how that lesson looks. Floyd (41m 34s): Yeah. You know, it’s some demos and you know, the instructor’s gonna feel you out as well, but they’re gonna more than likely have it in their hand and they’re gonna talk you through what they’re doing as they’re doing it. And so then it’s just a cut and paste situation where you’re trying to emulate them along with your specific biomechanics that they watch and, and they, they break it down simply and, you know, it’s, they break it down into bite-sized pieces because there’s so many things happening at once that, that self-diagnosis can make a man or woman dizzy. Floyd (42m 18s): Right, right. Dave (42m 19s): Yeah. That’s where it’s kind of crazy ’cause you don’t know what you’re doing kind of wrong or Right, right. Floyd (42m 24s): Or what you did. Right. Like, you know, how did I just do that? That was the tightest furthest I’ve thrown all day. What did I just do? And so, you know, having that feedback is invaluable. And then, you know, give it some time on your own, work on it, see, you know, what the next hurdle is and then go back to the drawing board, break it down again, and, you know, evolve and you know, if that’s the goal, awesome. That’s how you do it. You, I mean, I am doing nothing but standing on the shoulders of people who have already cut their teeth. Like that is, that is just what I’m trying to do. Dave (43m 4s): That’s the amazing thing about it. Right? Yeah. The cool thing is, is that, you know, we’ve heard some of those stories about some of the people that were there at the start or you know, earlier on and they’ve been on here, but the cool thing about where you’re at is that you kind of got started when you had a lot of that was already, you know, the new lines, right. The stuff. Yeah. And, And we, and, and, and me too. I mean, I benefited from that too. Like I didn’t develop any of that stuff And it was like, okay, the Skagit stuff works. Like it’s, you know what I mean? Like, it’s a different world. Do you think, looking ahead, it feels like, I mean, you know, what else do you have to work on? Do you feel like your spay game, you still got a long ways to go to kinda get up to that upper level? Or how’s that look for you? Floyd (43m 41s): Yeah, I follow some people in the field who are worlds more talented than I am, you know, so, you know, around these parts, you know, Travis Johnson is, you know, a technician and so he mentioned something the other, I don’t know, it was a couple months ago And it, it kind of was a conviction for me to switch my hands, right. To start practicing, you know, with, with a different grip, with, you know, my left hand on top and just being able to do it and get it done from any position. Floyd (44m 26s): And that’s kind of the goal Right now in the short term is to be able to get it done no matter what the, you know, impediment or, or whatever the roadblock is. You know, if my view is, you know, to hike down into a place that maybe only has 12 decent swings or to make a cast from under these trees and get it turned over, if it’s holding that 10 or 12 pound steelhead, would it be worth it? And the answer is always, without a doubt, 100%. Yes. Yep. So get it figured out, right? Yeah, definitely. And challenge yourself and get uncomfortable and look silly and I do plenty of that, so Yeah. Dave (45m 9s): Yeah. Yeah. So that’s it. So the, the left hand or right hand on top, getting proficient where you’re just as good with the left hand as the right hand on top. Yeah, that’s, and I’m, and I’m not there either. That’s the thing. It’s like, I think that’s one of my biggest struggles, right? Is getting to that point where it’s you’re equal. Yeah. Floyd (45m 24s): Right. And that will translate into you providing a better service for the client because whether it’s a, a, you have a left-handed client or you know, somebody who’s wanting to evolve their spay cast, you know, as you improve you can pass that along just as it was passed along to you. So yeah, having those people is sort of my guardrails. You know, Tom’s always trying to push himself. Jason is constantly innovating with line systems and materials and fly colors. And so it’s just a cool evolution to sort of, you know, to full send and, and, and try and challenge yourself and not find that complacency, Dave (46m 13s): Right? Yeah. You have, Floyd (46m 14s): You know, Jack Mitchell? Yeah, Jack, Jack Mitchell is a great example. I, I’d like to see anybody keep up with him first off on the water, Dave (46m 23s): Right? Yeah. He, he, I remember that when we had, so the cooling about Jack is we our first steelhead, you know, kind of group trip. We did host a trip when I first, I can’t remember what year, but it was early when we started the podcast. We fished with Jack and then we took a little hiatus and didn’t do trips for a while, but we did that and I not, I recognized that in Jack right away, like out there he was like, he had all the, everybody set up, but then he was also still guiding and still going strong, like efficient, you know, doing things all day long. Like he’s, he’s always going, right. Floyd (46m 51s): You know, I hate to put this, you know, on recording. Yeah. But he is, Jack Mitchell is an inspiration. If I can have that level of ability and stoke at his age and for the, the time that he’s been doing it, then I will feel like I’m doing my part. But, you know, he’ll, he’ll tell you Right now, you know, that there are things in, whether it’s water or line system or color scheme or just all the variants, right? He will tell you from his own mouth that there are things that to this day that he’s still learning. Floyd (47m 31s): And that’s one of the appeals of this game to me is that you just, you don’t, it just keeps you right sized Dave. Dave (47m 40s): That’s right. Yeah. You’re never gonna master the, the spay or really even just the fly, you know, any evening. Yeah. That’s what keeps it going. Yeah. We had that conversation. It was interesting because yeah, I think that’s the harder it is to get some of these species, the more passionate people probably get about it, you know, like the muskie or the steelhead or it feels like the Chinook fishing can be challenging, but in different ways, right? Because if you’re there in the right time, the fish are there, right? They’re there, but if they’re not there and the conditions change or the river’s 50,000 CCFs, that can be a whole different set of, of challenges, you know what I mean is Absolutely. Is that the biggest thing when you look at Steelhead versus Chinook? Is that the biggest thing where like how do you I feel like Steelheads always like, you know, well, you never know. Dave (48m 22s): Is this the year? Like, are we gonna have an up year down or down year? Are the fish there is, is Chinook the same way? Floyd (48m 29s): Yeah. I would say there’s probably more uncertainty on the steelhead Dave (48m 32s): Side. On the steelhead, yeah. Right. Floyd (48m 33s): Just we’re just with my limited, you know, experience. That’s what I would say, Dave (48m 39s): At least for these areas, probably like the Togiac, some of these areas who, who still have strong runs of Chinook. Right. There’s definitely, we’ve heard the stories about the Kenai places where there, you know, there’s closures and things, but I think that, yeah, it’s a salmon run. They come in, steelhead is definitely, yeah, it’s a little bit different, but, but you’re hitting the op n we’ve had Trevor Kovich on and stuff like that, and he’s really talked about how he feels like there’s a really a negative too negative of a message out there. He feels like there’s still really good runs, you know, coming in there, Floyd (49m 8s): You know, my experience, my, my first full season was last Dave (49m 12s): Year. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Did you guys have some success? Floyd (49m 15s): We had a great time. Yeah, we had a great time. And there were fish to be had on all three systems. We hit the sa duck, the Boca, she and the, the hoe. And you know, given the options, I’ll be on the hoe every day, but that’s not always an option. But no, I feel like the success was there and, you know, all, all indicators from what we think we know says it should be another successful year, you know, that counts and, and whatnot. And those variables are, are pointing in the right direction and I certainly hope so. Yeah. Yeah. I I really do, you know, for selfish reasons entirely. Floyd (49m 59s): Yeah. Dave (49m 59s): Right. Yeah. That’s it. Nice. Well, let’s, we mentioned it before, but let’s take it out here with our kind of our trip giveaway. Shout out. So everybody right now can go to wetly swing.com/giveaway and folks can enter right now to win that. We’re also gonna be looking to sell some spots for people who want to come up here. So if anybody listening now wants to get in on this, they can just send me an email, dave@wetlyswing.com and I’ll let you know what we have on availability. So I’m pretty excited about this because I think it’s this one of those destination, you know, know, I mean there’s these places around, you know, different species, right? That you think about red fish or whatever it is, muskie. And, but I feel like this is one of those destination species and spots, you know, that you, you kinda have to go to, right? Dave (50m 40s): You have to do Alaska before you die. Is, is that, what is it about the Alaska thing versus anything else you’ve done that, that like, what is Alaska, how is it, why is it separated from the rest? Floyd (50m 50s): Well, because Alaska has so got ’em, right? Right. That, I mean that, and with Alaska, you just, you, you are reminded of your place in the pecking order of the natural world and the fishery, the amenities are all that they’re built up to be. So the hype is real. And to say, I don’t wanna put anglers into classes, I don’t really like doing that. But I have seen firsthand people who are taking the plastic off the cork Oh wow. And are willing to, you know, just get uncomfortable and learn something new. Floyd (51m 35s): And those people find fish in Alaska. And so you don’t have to be a mega hucker, you don’t have to be all of those things that we build up in our mind that usually don’t come to fruition. You can get it done, you can get it done in Alaska. Dave (51m 56s): So somebody listening Right now, even if they have never picked up a spay rod, have never maybe even, you know, whatever, you know, they could go up to Alaska and have a chance or maybe go on this trip for Chinook and have a chance at Chinook. That’s what you’re saying. Floyd (52m 10s): You know, you got your line in the water, you got a chance, Dave, Dave (52m 13s): You got a chance. Right. Floyd (52m 15s): And you know, I think that with the staff in the program, the Epic and the boys have built up there, you are gonna get the type of instruction that will give you the best chance of success. That’s my biased view of it. Dave (52m 31s): Right. Well Stevie, I mean he’s obviously a big name. I think Stevie, he’s been on the podcast a couple times and he’s been on in the bucket with Brian and then, and I’ve had him on here, but yeah, it feels like he’s got a really cool program. Do you know much about that? Have you talked to Stevie about that thing he has going around with with Epic? Floyd (52m 48s): You know, we, we stay kind of focused mostly on what we’re doing on the AK at the time, you know? Yeah, you Dave (52m 56s): Do. So that’s your Yeah, you’re like there for that period. And it’s like we have one focus and that’s to get people into Chinook and have a good time. Floyd (53m 3s): And I should probably be having those conversations with Stevie about his other programs, but I’m too busy making fun of him. Right. So, you know, he quite possibly could be the funniest man I’ve ever Oh, is Dave (53m 15s): He ever Floyd (53m 16s): Met in Per, oh my gosh. He, his delivery is, is gold. Dave (53m 21s): What’s his delivery like? How, how would you describe it? Like what is the comic? Floyd (53m 25s): He’s just a dry Canadian that is just gonna cut you to ribbons and you’re not even gonna realize it till you see your arm on the ground. That’s Dave (53m 34s): It. Love that. That’s Floyd (53m 36s): It. But he is one fishy dude and technically he is, you know, as sound as they come and you know, just spending time dissecting water and brainstorming with Stevie, you know, that’s good stuff. You know, that’s, it’s good stuff. Dave (53m 55s): So yeah, that’s it. Okay, cool. So, so, well that’s pretty much it. I’ve got a couple random ones here and then we will, we’ll take it outta here. First, let’s just start with this. I always like to get a couple tips. So, so you’re on the water, we’re sitting there, we’ve got all of our gear, we’ve got the, and and what length is the, the right length for the, the, you know, eight or nine or nine or 10 weight? Floyd (54m 15s): I like the 14 ish. Yeah, Dave (54m 18s): 14 ish. Yeah. Yeah, so that’s right. So a little bit longer in that way. It gives you a little more control. Is that the idea there on Floyd (54m 23s): Yeah. And, and pick up those heavier, make it easier to have the leverage to pick up those heavier systems. Dave (54m 29s): Yeah. Okay. So you got that. And then, and then do you have a rod manufacturer or do you kind of use a little bit of everything? Floyd (54m 35s): I’ve got my nine weight. Scott. Dave (54m 36s): Yeah, Scott, again, that’s where you forget about this. There’s so many rods out there and they’re all good, right? They’re all great, but, you know, but Scott’s in the game. Everybody’s in the game. Floyd (54m 44s): Yeah. And, you know, go to your local fly shop and put ’em in your hand and play around. I mean, they want these things off the shelves and, and go find something that kind of, you know, slots the peg for you, right? Dave (54m 59s): Is that what the Portland fly shop, if you were to walk into Jason’s shop, which is on the, the west side of Portland, just off of, you know, 4 0 5, it’s right, right downtown, you know? Yeah, yeah. Is it, what’s it like when you go in there? Does Jason have just a bunch of spay? Is it a mix? What’s his shop like? Floyd (55m 14s): Yeah, he’s, I mean, he’s a flash up and, and I’ve seen this firsthand. I’ve seen people walk in off the streets who are just spin fishermen and you know, have some questions and Jason and his guys there do not hold back. There’s not any of that sort of elitist us versus them gear versus fly and whatever your pursuit is, they are going to do everything they can in their extensive bag of experience to put you in a successful position. That’s kind of what I love about those guys over at Portland Fly Shop. Floyd (55m 56s): They do not discriminate. They are going to help you out with what you have. And if you’re looking to up your game, they are going to, they’re gonna facilitate that in every which way they can. That’s Dave (56m 9s): Awesome. Yeah, I know Jason’s doing a cool thing over there and that is an interesting conversation about the conventional and spay right? Or flies that you have, especially when you’re at, at a lodge or something like that, you know? Do you feel like, and you know, you haven’t been there a long time, but do you feel like there, is there a mix of guys there at the lodge? Do you get some conventional guys? I, I know there’s some transition going, but like in the evenings when you’re there, is that kind of, or do you guys have the program where it’s all spay? Floyd (56m 35s): No, there’s a little bit of overlap. Yeah. And, you know, at the end of the day, we all love the same resource and what appeals to you and what appeals to me as far as tactics isn’t a distinction I’m gonna get hung up on. No. The pursuit and appreciation of the resource that is common ground. Yeah. It’s, and that’s what should be focused on. Dave (57m 0s): So you don’t see the old white, you know, again, I always go back to the old elitist yuppie white, old, white guy. Right. Do you not see that as much in, you know, because of the, the Jason and the shot and the people you’re around? Or do you still see some of that out there? Floyd (57m 15s): I mean, there’s some of that around, but the, the tone that is set in the places and the people that I work for to say it’s shut down. It’s not shut down aggressively, it’s just not really acknowledged to give it that much energy. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. Because the bottom line is we all know where this resource is at this time, so we all have our part there. We do not need to go the way of the buffalo with these species. And so, yeah. Yeah. It’s our responsibility. Right. I hear you. To, to adjust and to accept shutdowns and regulations and travel an extra 45 minutes through an hour to go to some open waters, you know, and let things recover and do our part. Dave (58m 3s): Yeah. Would you, this has come up a couple times on the show, would you, if it got in some of these areas where, you know, you couldn’t just, the runs were down, you know, on maybe your favorite water, but instead of closing it, they were like, well, you know, you can only use flies that don’t have a hook. Right? No barb or no hook at all. So you just basically feather, would you still fish that, would that be interesting? Floyd (58m 25s): Ooh, boy, that’s a deep question. Dave (58m 28s): Like just getting the, I guess winter steel has different probably because you’re down, but if you’re doing like summer steelhead, right, you’d have more feedback maybe if you’re doing some stuff on the surface, Floyd (58m 37s): You know, as opposed to that I would just travel further. I would make the investment to go somewhere where they’re not in jeopardy, is what I would do. And I fish with people who would do that. I am just a brush monkey who’s not that evolved yet. Dave (58m 52s): Yeah, yeah, that’s right. Yeah. You’re early in the game. That’s the amazing thing about it. ’cause you know, it’s all an evolution, you know, we’re all, I mean, I’ve evolved and, and stuff like that, so it’s, it’s pretty, that’s part of the fun. Yeah. Floyd (59m 2s): We are where we are at, right? Dave (59m 4s): Yep. At this moment. Right. And, and be in the moment. That’s also the take home is that, you know, this is the moment Right now whether you’re out in the river swinging for that, that one cast. Right. Be in that moment. Don’t, don’t be thinking about, you know, whatever you else you could be thinking about. Floyd (59m 18s): Yeah. Dave (59m 18s): Good. Well, let’s get a couple of random ones here and then we’ll take it outta here. You mentioned a few things. I thought that were pretty powerful. One of ’em, let’s just start, you know, go deep just for a second here on, you mentioned staying sober 12 years. I feel like a lot of people that’s a, a, a big thing, a big struggle for a lot of people I dealt with. You know, I’ve had alcoholism in my family, you know, for my whole life. Right. So it’s always a challenge. What would you be the tip, somebody’s listening now and they’re wanting to, you know, to get get to where you are. What would you tell that person? Floyd (59m 50s): Well, if, if that’s a struggle that they’re going through then, Dave (59m 55s): Or maybe what’s helped you do it. Floyd (59m 57s): Yeah. I was fortunate to have people in my life through their charity that I was able to go get help in a treatment facility. There you go. And the, the most common, and this might be a little over people’s head, but don’t believe your thoughts. That is the one, you know, my brain even to this day is not always my friend, you know? Gotcha. Right. My reaction versus my response is, is a universe of distinction. So, you know, because it feels impossible, because it feels hopeless, because there is no solution that your brain can come up with. Floyd (1h 0m 41s): Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You know, asking for help, putting one foot in front of the other, doing what is recommended or suggested and rinse and repeat until you can rewire that brain and make it trustworthy is kind of the path that I took. Dave (1h 0m 58s): Yep. And, and it’s worked and that’s amazing. Yeah. I think that that’s, yeah, it’s, it’s, you know what I mean? We all have these struggles and there’s different things. I kicked tobacco, you know, actually about the same time as you actually, I think it was, it has been something about 12 years, 13 years now. That’s Floyd (1h 1m 13s): Huge. I feel like that’s my next one. I, yeah. There’s just not been enough heat yet, I guess. Dave (1h 1m 19s): Yeah. Well I’ll give you my tips on that. I’ll actually send you to a, I do have a blog post out there. I wrote, gosh, way back in the day. I, it’s, I think it’s still out there, but it was like the 12 things that helped me quit. And, And it was, you know what I mean, like you said, some of them accountability, like tell everybody you’re quitting. Yeah. Tell be like, Hey, hey everyone. No more secrets. Yeah. No more secrets. No more secrets because you can quit. ’cause I did that. I quit like a hundred times, you know, that year before I quit for good. And, and, but once I told people, you know, that was big. And then, you know what I mean, like set a plan and, and have something else to fill the gap. For me it was like working out, you know, running, exercising, you know what I mean? You gotta have something to fill the gap. So those are my two little, little tips on it. It’s worked, but also have a meaning, you know, you have a, have a reason to do it. Dave (1h 2m 2s): For me, I, it was right when my first daughter was born and I was like, All right. You know what I mean? Like, this is a good time to do it. There you go. They’ve never seen me, they’ve never seen tobacco Right. With me. That’s never been even a thing. So that’s a, and the reason I chewed, if you think about it, why did I start chewing? Because my dad chewed Copenhagen because my three older brothers chewed. And so I chew, right? It’s a family. It’s like you got all this family stuff, pressure, genetics, the environment. So anyways, does, does that make sense? Does that resonate with you at all? Floyd (1h 2m 28s): 100%. Yeah. 100%. You can just go down the family tree with mine as well and the, the, the verdict was already in. Yeah. Right. Dave (1h 2m 37s): Yeah. Totally. Cool. Well, you mentioned a boat. Are you a more a foot or do you have a boat out there that you’re, you’re fishing out of? Floyd (1h 2m 44s): Yeah, no, we do everything with boots on the ground. So I’ve got a, a liquid soar and Oh, you, Dave (1h 2m 50s): Yeah, you have a, yeah, you have a raft. Floyd (1h 2m 52s): Yeah. And so I, I get us from point A to point B And we dissect water And we, we swing, if it could be swung, we swing it, you know? Dave (1h 3m 2s): Yeah. The rafts the big Right. The raft gets you to places that a drift boat can’t get to, Floyd (1h 3m 7s): You know, that tends to be the case. I do like it, it’s just much more forgiving, you know? Yeah, right. Dave (1h 3m 13s): It’s a good, yeah, it’s forgiving too, right. And you can go, you can get a little more whitewater. We, we actually talked to the, I think it was, was it Jack Clack of craft, the guy who’s kind of running the show at Clack of when we were asking about that, you know, like the boats, you know, they’re still kicking butt. But that’s the same thing. Like there’s some places where you wouldn’t take a clack of craft, right. That you can’t, even though you could take those a lot of places, there’s some places where I, I wouldn’t take that, you know, drift boat. I’d rather take a raft. Floyd (1h 3m 37s): Yeah. And my, my rack and roll days are over, you know, I, I will do things in accordance to my skillset And it portage is required. We will, and, but the ultimate goal is to enjoyably start and finish the day. And so, you know, that might have not have been my point of view 25 years ago, but fortunately now I’ve come to the game with the right mentality, with a healthy respect. Love Dave (1h 4m 8s): It. This is great. This has been awesome, Floyd. I think, yeah, we can leave it there. I’ll send everybody out to carter spay.com and also, or is that the best way? Maybe just tell us where is the best place to send people if they wanna connect with you and pick your brain on stuff? Well, Floyd (1h 4m 22s): Carter spay or just, you know, reach out directly to the phone number, the (405) 402-5253. Awesome. Yeah, and I’m usually around, and if I’m not, then I get back pretty quickly. Dave (1h 4m 34s): Yeah, perfect. So yeah, so if people are interested and, and it’s still time right? As this episode comes out, obviously it’s gonna be out there a long time, but Right now I think it’s gonna go live in probably February. Yeah, a couple weeks. So is that, is this Right now primetime? Are you out there like full winter steelhead Right now? Floyd (1h 4m 50s): Oh yeah. I, I’ve been waiting for what we have today, right. Which we, we had some rain show up and I mean, we had next to nothing for January. And I feel like this is the pulse, this is what we’re looking for. Yeah, Dave (1h 5m 5s): The pulse. So where are, where are you going? So you get that pulse and you, like you said it, you’re hitting the op, so you’re heading to the op to the, and then you’re gonna do that for a, a month or so, and just like, do you, are you like go hard, like just kind of dirt bag it, trout bu sort of thing? You’re going for it? Floyd (1h 5m 20s): Yeah, I’ll be guiding for about, I’ll have a couple days off in between, but I’ll be guiding for, you know, 30 to 40 days up there. And then when I’m not guiding, I’m gonna be out there with, you know, friends or myself and I mean, if I’m not out there getting paid to do it, then I’m out there getting the payment myself. Dave (1h 5m 41s): That’s amazing. Yeah. You, you, you’ve got it, dude, this is great. All right. Yeah, Floyd, we’ll, like we said, we’ll send everybody out. We’ll have links in the show notes and thanks again for all your time today. Looking forward to Yeah. Hopefully getting on the water with you as well and, and staying in touch. Floyd (1h 5m 53s): Yeah, it sounds like we’re gonna share some time out there. Yeah, man. On Togiak. Yeah. So I look forward to it. Dave (1h 5m 59s): All right. Before we get outta here, just wanna remind you, if you’re interested in this trip, we have limited spots for Togiak River Lodge. This is, it doesn’t get any better than this. We’ve got the lodge on the river, we’ve got Chinook salmon, king salmon. If you’re interested in this trip Right now is your chance. Check in with me, Dave, at wetly swing.com and, and follow up with me and I’ll let you know, we’re gonna be sending some stuff out to see who wants to jump in on this. And, and it’s gonna be July. So if you wanna get out into Alaska sky under the, the, the land of the Midnight Sun, if you want that experience and to just go all in on this spa trip, check in with me. All right. Just wanna remind you, if you’re on Spotify Right now, definitely make sure to follow the show so you get the next episode delivered. Dave (1h 6m 45s): It’s your inbox and I’m gonna get onto the next one. Hope you have a great morning, hope you have a great afternoon or great evening wherever you are in the world, and hope to see you up on Togiac and talk to you soon.

Conclusion with Floyd Carter on Chinook on the Spey

Before we wrap up, I want to remind you about our limited spots for the Togiak River Lodge trip. This is an opportunity you don’t want to miss. If you’re interested, now’s the time to reach out. Just email me, and I’ll give you all the details.

719 | Flying with Ariel Tweto – Alaska, Bush Planes, Suicide Prevention

By

Dave

-

February 14, 2025

In this episode, we take a unique journey into the world of bush flying in Alaska with Ariel Tweto—pilot, adventurer, and star of Flying Wild Alaska. Ariel shares what it was like growing up in a family of pilots, the thrill of her first appearance on The Late Show with David Letterman, and even a memorable drink with Harrison Ford.

Beyond the adventures, we dive into a more serious topic—suicide prevention in Native Alaskan communities, a cause close to Ariel’s heart. From broken bones to big dreams, this episode is packed with stories of resilience, passion, and making the most of every moment.

Show Notes with Ariel Tweto. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

Episode Chapters with Ariel Tweto

4:43 – Ariel shares that flying has been an integral part of her life since birth, as her entire family is deeply involved in aviation. Her grandfather was one of the first Native American pilots to start an airline, founding Ryan Air in Alaska. Both her parents and extended family are pilots, and she grew up flying regularly, even before she could walk or talk.

8:33 – Ariel shares the unexpected journey of how Flying Wild Alaska became a TV show.

15:23 – Ariel recalls her first solo flight as a terrifying experience. Reflecting on the experience, she acknowledges that being a pilot isn’t her true passion. Though she respects the family legacy, she realizes she doesn’t have the mindset needed for full-time flying.

17:35 – She shares some of the projects she worked on after Flying Wild Alaska including being a recurring guest on The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson and doing an episode on The Late Show with David Letterman. Currently, she co-hosts Native Shorts where she discusses short films created by Indigenous filmmakers from around the world.

19:41 – Ariel remains passionate about adventure and action sports, participating in extreme activities like mountain biking and surfing. She has suffered multiple injuries, including a broken collarbone from mountain biking, broken ribs, and a recent severe facial injury while surfing in Mexico.

21:41 – She tells how her parents inspired and encouraged her to explore which has been instrumental in shaping who she is today.

Photo via: https://www.instagram.com/arieltweto/

26:47 – Ariel has had a love for travel since childhood. One of her earliest experiences was a trip to Texas with her cheerleading coach, where she was fascinated by the cultural differences—frying an egg on the sidewalk and learning line dancing. Her curiosity grew when she joined Alaska’s travel basketball team in middle school, leading her to the UK.

30:35 – Ariel started a nonprofit called Popping Bubbles in 2014, inspired by her personal loss of a number of friends to suicide. The organization focuses on breaking people out of their comfort zones, encouraging them to explore new experiences, meet different people, and see the possibilities beyond their immediate environment.

35:39 – She reflects on her father’s deep passion for flying, emphasizing that no matter how many close calls he had—including a crash where he broke his neck—he never considered stopping. His happiest moments were in the sky, exploring new landing spots, and he had no plans to retire from flying as long as his body and vision allowed. Although he once said he would stop off-airport flying at 70, Ariel and her family believe he would have continued beyond that.

43:00 – She tells us about her running routine. Sometimes she runs for as little as 30 minutes, but on days like she had in Utah, she ran for three hours simply because of the beautiful surroundings

44:40 – Ariel is currently working on the animated TV show The Great North, which is now in its fifth season.

47:09 – Going back to suicide prevention, Ariel emphasizes the power of human connection in addressing depression. She believes that feeling seen and valued is essential, as isolation often leads to hopelessness.

53:18 – Ariel played point guard in basketball. Growing up in Alaska, her high school team often flew to different villages for games. She later played college basketball in Boston but quickly realized she preferred a warmer climate with mountains, leading her to move to California.

57:00 – Ariel is an avid podcast listener. Some of her favorites include SmartLess, Conan O’Brien Needs a Friend, and Oprah’s Super Soul Sundays. She particularly enjoys Mel Robbins for her practical, life-changing advice.

1:01:23 – She also enjoys music, with her current obsession being Xavier Rudd, an artist from New Zealand known for his nature-inspired music and didgeridoo playing.

Follow Ariel on Instagram @arieltweto.

Conclusion with Ariel Tweto

Ariel Tweto’s journey is one of adventure, resilience, and passion. From growing up in Alaska’s wild landscapes to starring in Flying Wild Alaska and advocating for suicide prevention in Native communities, her story is both inspiring and eye-opening. Whether she’s flying bush planes, sharing laughs with Hollywood legends, or helping others find hope, Ariel embodies a spirit of exploration and connection.

If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow along for more stories that celebrate adventure, community, and the power of pursuing what you love.

718 | Fly Fishing Minnesota with Carl Haensel – Driftless Region, Lake Trout, Great Waters Fly Fishing Expo

By

Dave

-

February 12, 2025

What makes Minnesota one of the most diverse fly fishing destinations in the country? From chasing wild steelhead on the North Shore and brook trout in the spring creeks of the Driftless, this state offers an incredible range of opportunities for anglers.

Today, Carl Haensel—author of Fly Fishing Minnesota, fly fishing guide, and manager at Great Waters Fly Fishing Expo—breaks down everything you need to know about fly fishing in Minnesota. We’ll cover the best times to fish, top rivers and lakes, and the species you can target, from lake trout and smallmouth bass to muskies and migratory browns. Carl also shares insights on conservation efforts, the history of Lake Superior’s fisheries, and what makes Minnesota’s public access some of the best in the country. Plus, we get a look inside the Great Waters Fly Fishing Expo and why it’s a must-attend event. Let’s dive in!

Show Notes with Carl Haensel. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

Follow Carl on Instagram 👉🏻 @namebini

Visit his website at 👉🏻 NameBini.com

Resources Noted in the Show

Minnesota Fly Fishing Maps

Fly Fishing Minnesota

Great Waters Fly Fishing Expo 👇🏻

Related Episodes

WFS 266 – The Boundary Waters in Minnesota with Riverhorse Nakadate

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript

Dave (2s): We traveled to Minnesota this last year and explored part of the North Star state, but we didn’t come close to fishing all the great species or covering the state in detail. From Muskie to brook trout to Lake Trout, steelhead and beyond. Minnesota is for sure a destination that should be on your list this year. And we are in luck because Today we have the person who wrote the book Fly Fishing Minnesota, And today you’re gonna get a roadmap to fish some of these storied waters. This is the wifi swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. How’s it going? I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. Dave (42s): I’ve been fly fishing since I was a kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and guides than just about anyone out there. Carl Hensel, the person in charge of the largest fly fishing expo in Minnesota, and the author of Fly Fishing Minnesota is here to walk us around the state. We’re gonna find out why you should find some time this year to Fish Lake Trout when they get started with their program. Right now as we spoke, it was negative two degrees, so we’re gonna talk about when they start fishing there, we’re gonna find out about the drift list again, taking it back to the drift list. And they’re also going to obviously get into steelhead salmon, talk about the fishery, and hear about a little bit of the history of sea lamb prey. Dave (1m 26s): That was very interesting. I think we’ve heard about that. They collapsed back in the fifties and now they’ve responded and rebounded And we got that story today. Here we go. You can check him out. Check out the book. Fly Fishing Minnesota. Let’s get into it. Here he is. Carl Hensel. How you doing Carl? Carl (1m 43s): Ah, doing great. Glad to be here today. Dave (1m 45s): Yeah, you have a bunch of things going on we’re gonna dig into today with the focus on Minnesota. You’re a guide out there. You wrote a great book that covers kind of fly fishing Minnesota. You have an expo and I’m sure there’s some other things we’re gonna pull out here and, and some great rivers. And we were actually up in Minnesota this last year and kind of traveled around. It was really awesome to be there. We have a lot of family there, so, So yeah, I’m really excited about this one. But maybe take us into what you have going this time of year. It’s kind of like, as this goes live, we’ll probably be in February, mid-February. How’s things looking for you doing any fishing now? Carl (2m 18s): Yeah, it’s, yeah, Minnesota does deserve its reputation of being cold. So we’re based up along Minnesota’s North Shore and right now, you know, lake Superior is open, but none of the streams in the areas are. So our fly fishing limit opportunities are limited in northern Minnesota, but in southeast Minnesota in the Driftless region, which we’ll certainly talk plenty about. All of those streams down there are limestone spring creeks, and that’s where we head for fishing in the winter because all those streams, even on the coldest days, are generally open year round. And we’re really fortunate in Minnesota to have a winter trout season that opens January 1st. Carl (2m 59s): That gives us the opportunity to fish hundreds and hundreds of miles of trout streams all through the winter. It’s really fun. Dave (3m 6s): Wow. It’s amazing. Yeah, it’s, it’s really cool. It sounds, this is gonna get into some diversity, I think, which is great, but let’s start kick it off with the book because, you know, fly Fishing Minnesota, you’ve got this guide and a, and a and a mapping book that goes along with it. How did that project come to be and, and you know, how’d you get into all that? Carl (3m 24s): That’s a great question. You know, I always really enjoyed using guidebooks whenever I travel around the country. And it was something I’ve always been interested in putting together. People had talked to me about it for a while and this really became a, to some extent, a pandemic project for us to, to get this done and across the finish line and make sure it was all published and entirely done. But we, we’ve been working on it for years. My wife, Jade and I, she’s really a huge part of putting this together. She shot more than half the photos in the book and she did all of the editing and layout, so she deserves a huge, huge credit in this as well. Carl (4m 6s): But it was a lot of fun, you know, in my entire life of fishing in Minnesota and throughout the Midwest, I’ve always been a photographer. So we’ve always recorded a lot of the details with these streams and I just really wanted to find a way to share it. Dave (4m 22s): Gotcha. Wow, this is really awesome. And I, I think today, like always, we won’t be able to get on touch on everything. So we’ll be sending people out to your website and all that and maybe let’s just do that high level where people can find the book. Where’s the best place to go right now? Carl (4m 35s): Yeah, you can get the book off of our website@namabinny.com and head there. That’s easy. You can also buy it and you know, local and regional fly shops, you can get it on the, you know, internet on Amazon. But, you know, we love to have people go to our website and pick up the book And we, we ship it on out and folks who buy it through us get a free introductory TRO limited membership. Oh, nice. We’re big tro limited folks. And you can get a free TU membership, even if you’re already a member, you can give it away to someone. So there you go. Dave (5m 6s): It’s cool. Carl (5m 7s): We’re big into conservation. We play a lot of conservation roles here in the state and you know, that’s part of, you know, why we wanted to do this book as a more than 350 page book. We wanted to be able to tell the stories of these streams so people could go out and visit them. That’s really, for us, the key is that at the core of what we do is conservation. And to have effective conservation for our waters here, we believe people need to go out and interact with them. If you don’t go out and fish water, you’re not as likely to be able to care about it well and advocate for it if it’s having issues. Carl (5m 49s): So that’s really one of the big reasons why we did what we did to put out this, this large guide. Dave (5m 55s): Perfect. So, great. Well that’s a a that’s a good intro. So I guess the challenge I would think on this is, you know, how do you cover it all? What do you choose, you know, what is left out? Like how do you maybe start there, how do you break up Minnesota? Because we, when we drove there, we actually went to, and you’ll know I’m sure all these places to the headwaters of the, the Mississippi right up at that state park. Yep. And then we, we drove down through there and then we headed south basically to the, to the Twin cities and all that stuff. But how has Minnesota broken up? Because you’ve got Lake Superior and you’ve got the Driftless, you mentioned you’ve got all this stuff. How has the book broken out? Carl (6m 29s): That’s a good question. So we’ve separated it out into some key aspects. So we talk about our Northern Minnesota trout streams, which both includes the trout streams that are around the headwaters in Mississippi on Lake Itasca. Yeah. Where you visited there. That’s right. There’s some cool streams there. We, so we talk about all those northern streams and the Lake Superior tributaries. We talk about the Driftless and Southern Minnesota trout streams as a group. We talk about Minnesota’s trout lakes. We have an incredible trout lake resource here. And so we have a full separate chapter of the book that highlights fishing in Trout lakes, which are primarily in northeastern Minnesota, but there are some spread throughout components of the state. Carl (7m 13s): Then we talk about our warm water fishing opportunities, both warm water rivers and warm water lakes. So it certainly is hard to cover everything. And while we have covered the trout waters very robustly and comprehensively and our warm water rivers that are good to float and good to explore for our warm water species, because Minnesota’s known as the 10 land of 10,000 Lakes, we utilized key lakes that could serve as examples of different lakes that you might be able to fish, because we certainly couldn’t cover all the lakes. Carl (7m 55s): That’s, Dave (7m 56s): Yeah, you don’t have 10,000 lakes in, in the book, right? Carl (7m 59s): We do not, yeah. But we have great examples of whether it’s lakes in the Twin Cities metro or Muskie Lakes or, you know, all sorts of different things that you might be able to go out Gotcha. And fish and explore. Dave (8m 12s): Yeah, that’s perfect. Okay. So yeah, I think that’s part of the thing. You know, if somebody was to get the book or if they’re heading into Minnesota, they could get the book and then really just get a, a taste for the area maybe where they’re gonna be. So, and maybe let’s talk about the species. What are the most common popular species in Minnesota? Carl (8m 29s): So for fly anglers, it really is divided in that cold water, warm water world. You know, we have robust Spring Creek fishing for both really hundreds and hundreds of miles of wild brown trout water, as well as wild brookies down in the Driftless in northern Minnesota. It’s more concentrated for stream trout on brook trout. We do have some brown trout waters as well in Northern Minnesota. And we have really incredible runs of steelhead. We have wild steelhead coming outta Lake Superior that show up on the Minnesota North Shore. That’s a lot of fun to target. We have some other incidental salmon like pink salmon, the occasional and rare coho or schnook type of thing that’s, that’s around. Carl (9m 17s): But really for migratory sail mods, we really talk about our steelhead here. And then we go into warm water fish and warm water fish. And our fishing opportunities are diverse and varied. So we have classic fishing for small mouth bass, large mouth bass, northern pike, muskies walleye of course being the state fish in Minnesota. Not as much a fly rod quarry, but we pick up a lot of incidental walleye. Anyone who is targeting warm water fish, it’s really a mixed bag. And so you, that’s part of the fun of the warm water fishing in the state. You never know what you’re really gonna get into. Some people are really excited about sort of those B-list species as well, whether that’s carp or fin or gar and different stuff like that. Carl (10m 4s): So there’s a lot of diversity up here for people to get into. Perfect. Dave (10m 8s): Perfect. No, that’s great. And Wal, and so your book, and just to clarify it, it is fly fishing Minnesota and not just fishing Minnesota, right? Carl (10m 16s): That is correct. So everything is, you know, we pursue with a fly rod and so the book really focuses on fly fishing. You know, like a great example that I didn’t touch on in the sail mon world is Lake Trout up here. Oh yeah. We have a, we have an amazing lake trout fishery in northern and northeastern Minnesota. And a lot of people don’t realize that those can be absolutely pursued with a fly rod. They’re a ton of fun to catch another big trout species here that people don’t think of as much. Dave (10m 48s): Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned Lake Draw. That’s perfect. ’cause I was thinking a little bit going into this, I was, you know, of course we talk a lot about steelhead and, and the Brule River right, is a, is a pretty famous river up there. Carl (10m 57s): Yep. The Brule is right across the border in Wisconsin. You know, like I, where I sit on the, on the North Shore, I’m looking across right now at the mouth of the Brule River, 20 miles across the lake. And you know, it’s a very cool migratory fish and resident fish river for a wide variety of Al Mons has a, you know, both an incredible steelhead population, but just an amazing migratory brown and coho and chinook run as well. So really neat river that we guide up here with myself and the other guides that work for us across the border on the, in the Wisconsin side. So we hit that as well. That’s sort of part and parcel out of being based out of the Duluth Superior area, is that we robustly guide both Minnesota and Wisconsin. Dave (11m 44s): Yeah. Both of them. Okay, great. Yeah, this is awesome. And, and so I guess maybe let, let’s go into a little bit on, you know, your guide service and talk about that a little. That might be a good way to frame this. ’cause I think the book, there’s so much, it’s hard to right dive into it all here, but we’ll, we’ll have links out where people can check out the book. But what does that look like for you? When do you start your guiding operation in the year? Carl (12m 6s): Good question. We start off here with a Brule River opener, which opens on the last Saturday in March, and that’s when that’s opened. The Brule River is an immense and massive Spring Creek, so it’s a huge volume of spring water emerging from the ground at the headwaters of that river. So that river, the moment that it’s legally open to fish, we’re ready to fish it And we start pursuing those steelhead. The brule has a genetically distinct steelhead run. Those steelhead were originally introduced to this component of Western Lake Superior in the 1890s. And the steelhead in the brule are genetically unique from the steelhead on the Minnesota North Shore. Carl (12m 51s): And one of the big aspects that is a key component of the kickoff of our season in the spring is the fact that about 80% of those Brule River steelhead run up in the fall, and then they winter in the river, and then they spawn in the spring. So 20% of that run comes up in the spring, but 80% of that run is already in the river and waiting for us when that river opens. So it makes for a, a very unique fishery that has really different run timing than any other steelhead river in the area. Dave (13m 27s): And it reminds us again on that. So the fish in the brule, so you’re starting in March? Yeah, end of March, that’s when it opened. So that’s kind of a more like a winter spring type steelhead. And then do you have a fish that, and then do you have fishing later in to the fall as well? Carl (13m 41s): Yes, yes we do. So we fish those steelhead in the spring And we really start off our season on the Brule. And then once winter loses its grip, finally on the Minnesota North Shore, we transition to fishing, spring run steelhead on the North shore as well. And eventually by mid to late may, generally those steelhead are back out to Lake Superior and they’re, they’re gone and they’re spending the summer in the, in the big lake. And our migratory fish runs then from a migratory perspective, start again right at the end of July, beginning of August. They start with brown trout migrating in, followed eventually by Sam and then followed by steelhead. Carl (14m 26s): So we have a, a very robust fall migratory run that takes place on the Brule River there in Wisconsin. And our season there closes on November 15th. So sort of our bookend and migratory fish picture. And in betwixt all of that, we have all of our incredible resident and warm water fishing that we do. Dave (14m 47s): Gotcha. Yeah. And are you, are you in physically, are you in Duluth? Carl (14m 50s): Yeah, I sit up above Lake Superior between Duluth and two Harbors on the Minnesota North Shore. Dave (14m 57s): Oh, and two Harbors. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. And cool. So this is a big part. So, so if you had to say throughout the year, what, which species are you spending most of your time kinda chasing or guiding for? Carl (15m 7s): You know, it’s a, it’s a great question. There is a really good balance to everything, but steelhead are very popular. They’re iconic, they’re huge. Our wild steelhead here are just really an incredible fish. And we have a really strong, robust run. So we have a lot of people that come in from all over because they want a shot at a, a wild, naturally producing fish. And unfortunately, as I’m sure you’re aware, some of our West Coast steelhead stocks have fallen on hard times. So we get anglers who are like, wow, I want to come out, I want to see what a great lake steelhead is and, and what’s going on with that. Carl (15m 49s): We have people who come from around the country all over the region to do that and are really excited about that. But you know, we also have people that are as equally enthused about many of our resident trout and warm water species opportunities as well. Dave (16m 2s): Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And one of those is, I think lake trout I think is one that we haven’t talked quite as much about. What’s that look like with the fly? I mean, lake trout are known as the, the deep, you know, they’re down deep, they’re hard to find. Are lake trout, is that something that you, you can get into a number of with the fly? Carl (16m 19s): You can, but the window and seasonal opportunity for that is shorter. And that’s just the, the reality because lake Trout really do like cold, even, you know, much colder water than our other sail mons prefer. So that’s why they don’t have as much accessibility. I have friends of mine that are really diehard lake trout on a fly anglers, and they’ll, so they’ll fish ’em a little bit later into the season. But realistically from when they open in May into into early June, is the best window to chase Lake Trout. You know, it’s essentially all a streamer fishery because lake trout are a big predator. A lot of people might know, you know, both the story of lake trout here, where they’re native and the stories of lake trout where they’ve been introduced and are invasive. Carl (17m 7s): And in all cases, lake trout are just swimming around and eating as many fish as possible. So when the water is cold in early spring here, those lake trout are shallow and they’re accessible. So you’re gonna have times where some of the lakes in northern Minnesota, like in our boundary waters canoe area wilderness, where those fish are very accessible On the other hand, by the time you get into midsummer, yes, those lake trout are gonna be in a hundred feet of water and they’re not the type of fish that you want to try to pursue with a fly rod. Dave (17m 40s): No. So you gotta catch ’em that, that win. And what is that window, if you had to say the best, you know, kind of period that have a shot at a Lake trout, when would that be? Carl (17m 48s): It really is from when they open, you know, around the second week of, of May from that opener in the North year through early June Dave (17m 56s): To early June. Yeah. So a short window. Okay. Carl (17m 58s): It’s a, yeah, it’s a, it’s a short window and it’s, if the water stays cold, they’ll be up. 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Dave (18m 59s): Discover the L Ray series and more at pescador on the fly.com. You mentioned a little bit on the life history of Lake Trout. What do you know a little bit about that? Like where are, where is the native range for Lake Trout? Do you kind of know that a little bit? Yeah, Carl (19m 14s): You know, certainly, and you know, lake Trout are native to the Eastern United States and Canada, and that’s at the end of our last ice age. They had a greater range that had been pushed south and as the last glaciation retreated, they really occupied a lot of those glacially carved lakes. And Minnesota has by far the best native lake trout populations in the lower 48. And there’s obviously vast lake trout fishing available in Canada. But I think for a lot of fly anglers, what they realize is that lake trout are not native to the Innermountain West or to any of the Pacific drainages. Carl (19m 60s): And that’s really that differentiation. So where we’ve seen Lake Trout, you know, introduced to such a wide variety of major western lakes, whether that be Flathead Lake in Montana, Yellowstone Lake, and Yellowstone National Park, lake Tahoe, all have lake trout that are, have radically influenced quite a few of the native cutthroat populations and have dramatically impacted them. So Lake trout are a fun, super aggressive predator that, you know, I love to catch one of the, you know, they’re gonna hit a fly and if they don’t get it, they’re gonna hit it again and they’re gonna hit it again and they’re gonna hit it again. Carl (20m 40s): Wow. Yeah, it is so fun. And so we have a, we have a lot of fun fishing on Dave (20m 45s): Yeah, sounds amazing. So if you’re, yeah, if you’re out there, that might be a good way. Yeah. You start out with some steelhead, but then by, you know, May 2nd week of May into June, you’re hitting some lake trout, something like that. That sounds like a pretty good plan. Carl (20m 56s): Yeah, it’s an adventure. You gotta get, you gotta get into wilderness. Oftentimes folks really enjoy getting into the boundary Waters, canoe area wilderness. We profile some specific aspects and routes in the Boundary Waters, canoe area wilderness within the book to give people a sense of exactly where they could go, what they might find, those types of things, you know, because it’s, it’s a wilderness experience, you know, experience. And these are truly wilderness fish. They are accessible at times in Lake Superior as well, but Lake Superior is a fickle lake. Dave (21m 32s): Oh it is. Carl (21m 33s): It’s, you know, it’s today it’s beautifully calm, it’s laid down and it’s, it’s a stunning day at negative two degrees. Dave (21m 41s): Oh wow. That’s the temperature today. Carl (21m 44s): That’s the temperature today. Not a day for fly fishing. Wow. But Lake Superior is a lake that can, if you plan a day on it, you can’t count on going fishing that day. No. You could have 6, 8, 10 foot waves come up and you won’t be out on that outta the lake that day. Yeah. But it really is also an amazing resource And it has an incredible lake trout population. And as well as all of these other salmon monets, everything from migratory coaster brook trout that we haven’t mentioned, you know, to all of the migratory brown trout, co-host Chinooks, all these different cell monets in the Dave (22m 20s): Lake. It’s got everything. Do they have a pretty good feel on the lake? It’s so big, you know, do they, do you have a feel for impacts from the, the fish and salmon are, are there still a lot of hatchery as far as the salmon stuff going on out there? Is, is that something of concerned or, I’m just thinking like you got these lake trout, which are the native fish, are there competitions, stuff like that with the other species? Carl (22m 42s): That’s a great question. And we are really fortunate that we have nationally award-winning biologists out here that have really been focused on management and restoration and have done an incredible job. The fisheries in Lake Superior collapsed around the middle of the last century due to over harvest and sea lamp ray predation, sea lamp rays as a non-native, invasive parasitic fish that really collapsed the native lake trout and other fish populations. And we have worked diligently since that point to get to a time now where our lake trout populations are fully recovered at this point in time. Carl (23m 25s): There’s no lake trout stocking in the Western Lake Superior Basin, and it’s a really sustainably harvestable fishery, which is something that we just can’t say about a lot of cell mounted fisheries, many places as a wild, naturally producing fishery that although it’s not fly fishing, there’s many charter boats that go out of Duluth every day during the summer. And for the most part, those anglers are bringing back limits of lake trout in a very sustainable manner. You know, the pie is carved up of the forage fish. There’s a finite amount of forage fish that can be consumed in the, in the Western Lake Superior Basin. And that is split between our native lake trout and our wild steelhead, our wild brown trout, our wild cohos and our wild chinooks. Carl (24m 10s): You know, along with the few coaster brook trout that we have that are hanging on as really our original native migratory fish, which is a great story in its own right for the migratory giant coaster brookies. But there with only a few exceptions, there is virtually no stocking that’s going into the lake at this point in time. Dave (24m 32s): No stocking of any of any of the salmon species. Carl (24m 35s): Yeah, there’s just a, there’s a small, small amount of direct progeny of wild steelhead in two near Duluth rivers that contribute very, very little into the, the fishery. And over on the south shore in Wisconsin near Ashland and Bayfield, there’s some stocking that goes on in a bay over there called Schwa Magan Bay. And Schwa Magan Bay has received some, some hatchery fish, but really in the main lake there’s nothing. And you know, when we’re out fishing and when we talk to charter captains out there, it is, you know, really the vast, vast majority of fish that we’re seeing in the lake are wild naturally producing fish, which we feel really fortunate about. Dave (25m 18s): Yeah, right. Wow, that’s amazing. So the, so basically the Lake Trout, everything’s doing, it’s really interesting ’cause like you mentioned the steelhead, you know, it’s this interesting thing, we’ve talked a lot about it. We’ve got a whole podcast series in the bucket where Brian’s been talking a lot about the ups and downs of the steelhead and things like that. But you know, there’s some challenges. And then also even go up to Alaska, you see Chinook, it seems like there’s some crazy stuff going there with closures and things. How is Lake Superior, do you think it’s different, a lot different than what’s going on in the Pacific Ocean or even the Atlantic Ocean? Like how have they got the lake trout dialed, figured out? Right? It seems like if, if these other places aren’t getting it figured out, how, how have you guys been able to do it? Carl (25m 55s): Well, it was a, a long and difficult process because Lake Superior, when it was in its original state before the accidental introduction of sea lamp rays that went along, you know, around Niagara Falls and up through the well and Canal and into the Upper Great Lakes, when that occurred, there were dozens of different genetically unique populations of lake trout that spawned in specific areas, had different life histories. And we lost a lot of that. Unfortunately, there really was a, a great genetic loss during the collapse of Someon Fisheries in the, in the Great Lakes that, you know, from a fisheries management standpoint, we still mourn to this day and to recover it. Carl (26m 45s): They initially tried, you know, stocking lake trout, but some of the Lake trout strains that they tried just weren’t ones that worked because they weren’t well situated to spawn in the areas that we had here. So they had to retool and retool and eventually came to some lake tr strains that did well here. And it took decades of continued monitoring adjustment and stocking to get it back to a point where all these lake trout are doing very well in the lake here and are really sustainable. And we just don’t have near the amount of variables, even though Lake Superior is the world’s largest freshwater lake by surface area, it does not compare to the Pacific Ocean. Carl (27m 34s): And we don’t have the variables of predation. Yeah. We don’t have some of the variables, the different climactic changes that we’re seeing. Yep. And we have really, really dedicated managers here that are really focused on, you know, on our populations here. Dave (27m 52s): Yeah. That’s what it is. And so, and then on the, maybe describe just quickly on the Sea Lamp Parade, describe that collab. How did that happen? Can you describe that, that process? How, how it sounds like it got accidentally introduced, but what happened there? Carl (28m 7s): So, so Sea Lamp prairies are native to, there’s a native sea lamp rate native to Atlantic Ocean drainages and had been able to historically migrate as far inland as Lake Ontario. And from a perspective of accessibility, it was not until we started creating a bypass around Niagara Falls. Oh. That eventually created the accessibility, not only for sea lamp rays, but all of the different invasive fish species that now occupy components of the Upper Great Lakes to be able to get around. Carl (28m 47s): And some of those moved on their own. Some were moved to ballast water, fish, some we, you know, baus water of ships and some, we just don’t know exactly how they got in. But Sea Lamp race specifically made it around Niagara Falls and then absolutely collapsed the, collapsed the fisheries in not only Lake Superior, but in Lake Michigan, lake Huron. Dave (29m 7s): Oh, really? So everything got hit, Carl (29m 9s): Everything got hit. There is an amazing book called The Life and Death of the Great Lakes. Oh wow. That details a lot of, a lot of the science and a lot of the history. And if people are interested, they can dig into that. And that talks a lot about some of this fisheries history and provides a perspective of, you know, what it was before and what it is now. Yeah, Dave (29m 29s): Right. That’s, yeah. Well that’s great. We’ll put a link out to that book as well so people can take a look at that. And that is interesting. And we’ve been, we’ve been jumping around, we’ve had a number of episodes on, you know, all the lakes and all the states and Ontario, and it’s really cool. Yeah. ’cause like you said, it’s all connected. You know, you’ve got these lakes that essentially, well I guess historically they weren’t connected like NamUs, right. Fish couldn’t get up there. Like Niagara Falls was the one, the place, right. That was the first place that stopped. But after they, what they created there, so they created some sort of a, just a fish ladder bypass whatever it was there that fish could get through. Carl (30m 1s): So it’s a, it is a massive system of locks and dams to get shipping and passage for, for goods and commerce around Niagara Falls. And that, you know, has been a, you know, a huge economic driver for the center of the North American continent and the, you know, invasive species aspects, you know, are just one of the results of that. Dave (30m 22s): Yeah. That’s it. Okay. Well let, let’s take it back into Minnesota and, and again, like we said, it’s gonna be hard to cover, you know, everything today, but back to your operation. So we talked steelhead, you know, we talked about lake trout. What, what happens in, what, what are you doing in say, you know, June, July, August when you start to get to the, the warmer months of the year? Carl (30m 40s): Yeah, we have just an amazing time here. After the steelhead season, we segue into some of our resident trout fishing. We have great resident trout fishing. We’ve got over a thousand miles of trout streams in northeast Minnesota in the top three counties of the Arrowhead region of Minnesota up along Lake Superior. And primarily those are native and wild brook trout waters. And so we do resident trout fishing there, the Boise Brule River in Wisconsin across the lake. We as a Spring Creek, we have just wonderful wild trout fishing there. And we focus on some of the really premier hatches. Carl (31m 21s): We’ve got an incredible brown Drake hatch. We’ve got a great hex hatch there. Just really, really good hatch fishing, which is a lot of fun, you know, because that river and our rivers on the Minnesota North Shore are really ensconced in forest and don’t have agriculture surrounding them. Our mayfly, cataly stonefly hatches have remained really robust where we’ve lost hatches and other places due to pesticide use like neonicotinoids and other issues that are affecting hatches elsewhere, both in Minnesota and around the country. Carl (32m 0s): We’re fortunate that our hatches up here are awesome and are doing really well. So that’s cool. And we get to fish those, you know, we focus on that a lot in June. You know, our warm water calendar starts really at the end of May and in June and for our guide business, we’re really pretty small mouth bass focused. Okay. From a warm water perspective, it’s a ton of fun. There’s a lot of top water action. You know, we get to, you know, we’re throwing out dalberg divers and poppers and just getting ba to come up and crush ’em. And it’s a really visual fishery, you know, whether we’re running it by a drift boat or by raft, you know, that’s, you know, it’s a lot of fun. Carl (32m 41s): And that, that warm water fishery is just a, an enjoyable, you know, component in the middle of the season. Dave (32m 48s): Perfect. And I wanna get into, I wanna give us, before we get outta here in a while, that, you know, some top places that might be hard to do, but some top destinations, which we’re always loving talking about, but, but let’s talk about the expo because this is another big thing. You, you sounds like, you know, you’re one of those guys that’s got a million things going on, but, but talk about that real quick. What, what is, describe the fly fishing expo for those that aren’t aware of it. Carl (33m 10s): Yeah, it’s the largest fly fishing event in the Midwest. It’s two and a half days. We run it as a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. The Great Waters Fly Fishing Expo is unique in fly fishing events in the United States because it really serves to benefit Minnesota Trout Unlimited. It helps drive some of our conservation funding. So my wife Jade and I operated on behalf of Minnesota Tu And it brings in anglers, presenters, exhibitors from around the world. So everything from Alaska to Argentina, we’ve got presenters and exhibitors that come in and are able to share information in addition to, you know, top brands, fly shops, all sorts of interesting components. Carl (33m 54s): That is everything that people are gonna be super excited to explore right at the end of winter. So we always run it in March this year is March 21, 22, and 23 Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And it’s just what folks need to be able to get ready to get pumped for the season and get all the latest gear and learn a lot about destinations, both regionally. So we have a lot of guides and a lot of shops and a lot of people that are gonna just be able to provide direct instruction, be like, Hey, how do I fish the Driftless? How do I fish bass in Minnesota? How do I fish the North Shore? How do I fish the Boys Pool River? Carl (34m 35s): And we do programming on that. That is super cool. In addition to a lot of the destination stuff of like, you know, what am I gonna experience if I go to Alaska? Dave (34m 44s): Yeah. Right. So you cover it all and it’s probably kind similar to the, like the RIMSKY shows which are, or I’m not sure we’re the closest, but is it similar to that, like that program where you guys can have a little bit of it? Carl (34m 56s): Yeah, it’s thematically similar. You know, certainly we really like to highlight the fact that we don’t repeat any programming. So it’s similar to a conference track. We have usually nearly four dozen different program opportunities that are gonna occur. And so people can line that up through all three days. So if they’re excited about destination travel or they’re excited about, you know, technical trout fishing skills, you know, or if they’re excited about warm water fishing opportunities, they can segue through and be able to really have a unique experience to learn a lot from experts in the field. Dave (35m 32s): Wow. Out of the, the two things, I’m not sure how much you’re involved, but you got Fly Fishing Expo in your guiding business, which, which one is taking up more time throughout the year of your time? Carl (35m 42s): That’s a, that is a a great question of all the different things that, that we do. ’cause you know, we, we guide, we do the show, we write articles for different fly fishing magazines and that type of stuff. Do a lot of photography. But we’re really fortunate that we are able to segment this off. So, you know, during the spring, summer and fall, we are really focused on guiding, once the, the guiding season ends from mid-November until March, we’re focused on putting together the best expo that we can And we work on a bunch of our writing working toward additional, whether it’s magazine pieces or books that we’re, you know, working toward at this point. Carl (36m 25s): Some really neat stuff we’ll have coming in, you know, down the pipeline. So that’s sort of how we split things up so that we don’t drive ourselves crazy Dave (36m 35s): Step into the world where the river whispers and the fishing is nothing short of legendary. This year I ventured into the heart of Eastern Idaho’s Yellowstone Teton territory where the fish were larger than life and the waters held the secrets of the best fly fishing out West Yellowstone Teton territory is not just a location, it’s a gateway to adventures that will etch themselves into your memory with crystal clear rivers like the Henry’s Fork and the South Fork of the Snake and enough lakes to keep you going all year long. Make your way to Yellowstone Teton territory and embark on a journey to one of North America’s finest fly fishing destinations. Whether you’re planning your trip now or just dreaming it up, the YTT is where those dreams turn into reality. Dave (37m 17s): Remember Yellowstone Teton territory, that’s Teton, T-E-T-O-N. It’s time to experience eastern Idaho for yourself and support this podcast at the same time. Let’s get into, and this might be hard to do, but I want to talk, you know, because we talk top places, you know, I mean, you mentioned the boundary waters, which we haven’t dug into. We’ve had some episodes on that we’ve, you know, lake Superior, the Drift list, I mean the Land of 10,000 Lakes. But how would you, if you had to say like, you know, top 10 just a, a top list of destinations, somebody’s wants to go to Minnesota, maybe they’re in North Dakota or South Dakota, somewhere around, they want, they’re driving across the country or something like that and they wanna fish. Can you give us a list of maybe the places that you think are the most popular for fly fishing out there? Carl (38m 1s): Sure, we can talk through some of those And it really is because there’s so much water, it is very hard to pick, you know, here in the Driftless in Southeast Minnesota, you know, we’ve got over 1200 miles of different spring creeks down there. But really there’s some marquee options that stand out for anglers. And so we’ll start there in southern Minnesota and the Root River Watershed and the south branch of the Root River in particular, along with its tributaries is really at the top of the, of the list that we’ve got, you know, that we’ve got there. We’ve got a couple different fly shops in two small towns that are both on the south branch, the Root River, both offer guiding down there. Carl (38m 46s): So really great opportunity to get get out there. Which ones Dave (38m 50s): Are those? Which ones are those shops? Carl (38m 51s): You’ve got the Root River Rod Company in Lanesborough, Minnesota. And so the Root River Rod Company, super great shop, amazing fly selection guides that can get you out on the water there. And we, you have the Driftless fly fishing company in Preston, Minnesota, and that is a, an Orvis shop really got, you know, that water right around there nailed down and they have different strong points. So they do some kayak based fishing and kayak rental out of the Driftless fly fishing company in Preston. And the Root River Rod company has the only really good setup in the entire Driftless for float trips. Carl (39m 34s): If you want to do a drift boat and have that shot, that’s one river. And they’ve actually got a couple, there’s a direct tributary, the north branch, the route also that they float down there. Really cool. And you can get into some really great fishing and some big trout and there are literally dozens and dozens of tributaries that flow into those watersheds that are designated trout water and some of which are, you know, nationally recognized like Trout Run, which is a tributary to the North branch, the root in its own right. So a lot of neat water there elsewhere in the Driftless. The Whitewater River watershed is iconic. Carl (40m 14s): It’s got a namesake state park, whitewater State park that offers camping and a good opportunity to explore the river. There’s three rain branches, the white water, if you are going to the list, whether you explore the south branch route or the whitewater, you’re not gonna go wrong. And those are deeply profiled along with the shops in our book in fly fishing Minnesota. So we’ve got comprehensive mapping that shows all the rivers down there. And one of the key things that’s just amazing about fishing there in the Driftless, which makes this so good for visiting anglers is we have huge quantities of easements. Carl (40m 58s): These are perpetual easements, they never go away. Anglers can look at the book, they can pick out a spot, they know that they don’t have to ask for access and they can walk right into the water and fish on hundreds and hundreds of miles of water. And that’s what really makes the Drift list so unique is that Minnesota from our department of natural resources in our advocacy with Trout Unlimited has really prioritized access and specifically in the drift list that shines so brightly because you can just get out there, pull up to a pasture and you don’t have to worry about it. You have incredible open fishing. Carl (41m 38s): There’s been miles and miles and miles of habitat work that’s been done there and you can just walk in and fishing it. Dave (41m 45s): Wow, okay. So that’s the Root river, so that that area for sure as well. What would be another spot, And we, and I don’t know if we wanna break this up by regions or specific rivers, but what, what else would you be putting in that top list? Carl (41m 56s): Right, so that, so the drift list, I was, you know, going Root River and the Whitewater River as sort of two key and I mentioned trout run there, you know, like, so if we want to move, you know, move up, there’s certainly are other many excellent trout rivers and streams in between there and the Twin Cities metro area. But there’s a lot of incredible warm water fishing in the central part of the state. And I think that’s something that visiting anglers just shouldn’t miss because the fishing on the upper Mississippi, both just right in and outside to the north of the Twin Cities metro area has special regulations that protect the smallmouth bass there. Carl (42m 38s): The smallmouth bass fishing is just amazing. And there is, there’s great guides that work that there’s some amazing shop space in the Twin Cities metro area, a whole host of them. And they do an amazing job getting people on the water to fish that upper Mississippi River small mount fishery. And that fishery goes all the way from, as a quality excellent fishery all the way from the Twin cities all the way north to Grand Rapids, Minnesota as just a stunning fishery. And it’s somewhere where you can realistically have shots at getting out on the river and hooking an 18 to 19 to 20 inch small mouth. And whether that’s something that you’re gonna do on your own or whether that’s something that you’re gonna do with a guide, whether you’re gonna walk weight it, whether you’re gonna float it, it’s just a incredible fishery. Carl (43m 28s): It also has really good pike and musky fishing in segments of it, you know, in the river. Really neat shots at those big fish. So that’s a great, great resource there. A lot of fun. I was just on it, it’s actually even open in the winter. There’s a nuclear power plant. Wow. Dave (43m 48s): Is it still powering, getting power out of it? Oh Carl (43m 50s): Yeah, it’s power in the twin, the twin cities as we speak. There you go. And some, there’s a warm water discharge there that has some of that fishery is functionally viable all through the winter as well. So we were just out catching 18, 19 inch small up bass the other week, which is kind of crazy, but it is fun. So in a parallel world over to the east, in the central part of the state on the Minnesota, Wisconsin border is the Saint Croix River. And the St. Croix River as one of the first wild and scenic rivers in the nation has been amazingly protected. Carl (44m 31s): So a huge amount of the land along the St. Croix River is in federal hands as well as in state parks, state forests, county lands. And that watershed is as a large central United States watershed, one of the most pristine and well protected that we have. It has amazing facilities and mapping that the National Park Service has created for the river to be able to camp along it, canoe it, explore it, and fish it. It is well is an amazing small smallmouth bass muskie and pike fishery and has many distinct segments. Carl (45m 13s): You know, both the Mississippi and the Saint Croix are fully profiled and mapped in detail in our book. So it provides all the information that people need to be able to, to get on that. The Saint Croix has its headwaters in Wisconsin, it eventually goes east of the Minnesota, Wisconsin border. And fishing continues to be excellent in that up toward its headwaters. Dave (45m 36s): Wow. Okay. So, so we’re starting off. So drift list, Mississippi small mouth, St. Croix. What else would you add if we add a few more onto this list as far as top places in Minnesota, Carl (45m 48s): So the lake country world is worth considering as a flying angler. Dave (45m 53s): Is this the boundary lakes or is this is different from the boundary waters? Carl (45m 57s): This is, this is sort of the central Minnesota, you know, big water pieces and there’s both, you know, what we, you know, refer to as like resort area lakes and there’s like the big Musky lakes, the giant pieces like Lacs or Leach Lake and those waters are really cool if you’re going to try to find the biggest fish that you’ve ever caught. There’s some awesome guides that can get you on those. It’s big conventional tackle destination as well. And you know, you have both conventional fishing and fly fishing opportunities there in all of those lakes, but really diverse warm water opportunities. Carl (46m 38s): And what really highlights that is that there are innumerable lakes and places to stay and options to get on the water. So it’s just really great family fishing and a lot of these are resort communities, so they’re really focused on creating good experiences for everybody. So if you’re one of fly fish and you want to have a great time and you want to get in something, they’re super fun and just really enjoyable. And that really contrasts with the boundary waters canoe area wilderness and the boundary waters canoe area wilderness up along the Canadian border in northern northeastern Minnesota. That area is really, truly wilderness. Carl (47m 21s): Yeah, you know, we’re talking about a million acres that is visited by canoe And it is paddle only. There’s essentially, other than some of the entry area lakes that have a few motorboat options, once you get off of that, you are only by a hand propelled craft, whether that’s your canoe or kayak or what have you. And then you portage, so you portage from lake to lake to lake, carrying your canoe, carrying your gear, getting deeper and deeper in the wilderness. On the Canadian border where this sits on the Canadian side, there’s also another million acre wilderness there called quetico. Carl (48m 2s): And together they just make this vast canoe country where all of the lakes and all the land are just this interconnected area of water and woods and wilderness. And you are out there and it’s an incredible experience to get away from absolutely everything and get to some incredible fishing that is up there. The fishing really has, it’s very small mouth bass focused for fly anglers. There’s also really good spring, northern pike fishing that occurs up there at the same time when you have access to some of the lake trout. Carl (48m 42s): So very few muskies within that, that area specifically. But you have small mouth, you have northern pike, you have lake trout and there are also lakes that are managed specifically for brook trout. And you have shots at some trophy brook trout in the wilderness as well within the boundary waters canoe area wilderness. There you go. So wow. Just a, a super neat area and you know, it might take a day or a day and a half or more to portage into some of these locations, but if folks are, you know, they’re dreaming of hooking that 18 or 20 inch brook trout, that’s, that’s an opportunity that’s up there, which is, you know, hard to provide a lot of places. Dave (49m 27s): Right, right. That’s it. Cool. And then, you know, just looking, I guess we also mentioned kinda like superior, which would, you’d probably add that right steelhead onto this list of maybe the, the brewer. What would be the, or let’s say, what have we left out? What else would you add to this list from what we’ve talked about here? Carl (49m 42s): So one of the big things on the list are the North Shore tributaries. These North Shore tributaries two Lake Superior in Minnesota. They’re incredibly beautiful in the last 10 miles of all of these streams. They all drop about a thousand vertical feet coming down toward the lake. So every stream and river has multiple waterfalls that are just stunningly beautiful. And they offer both incredible brook trout fishing and then below the last waterfall, wherever that happens to be. Every stream is different. They’re going to have access to those migratory fish, whether it’s gonna be steelhead spring or pink salmon in the fall. Carl (50m 24s): And that’s one of the neat things. It’s really hard to call out any specific rivers because there’s so much diversity on the North Shore. There are iconic large ones like the Baptism River in Tet State Park has great trail access, three quarters of a mile of migratory fish water, and then resident trout water above that you, so it’s got camping, it’s got, you know, lodging opportunities nearby. It’s got hiking trails, it’s got all of those different things that you, that you want to explore on a large river on the Minnesota North Shore. Dave (50m 58s): Wow, amazing. Cool. Well let’s just take it out here really quickly with our, kind of our gear segment shout out. And I wanted to, we haven’t touched in detail on any of this, but maybe talk about that a little bit. What is, as far as, and maybe you probably have this at the show coming up, but let, let’s just focus on your companies. You had to spotlight a few that you’re using every day. You’re out there fishing. What are some of those brands that are kind of your go-to? We Carl (51m 21s): Use a lot of different stuff within our guiding business and you know, we work, we’ve got a fly shop in Wisconsin in the superior side that we’ll work closely with the superior fly angler and they, you know, they have a robust amount of gear. So, you know, whether that’s Orvis, whether that’s Sage, whether, you know, that’s St. Croix, you know, lot of really good brands here. You know, we use a lot of Orvis gear and they’ve been really wonderful. I, you know, it’s, I got my first Orvis guide Rod 29 years ago. Oh wow. Dave (51m 54s): No kidding. Carl (51m 55s): And you know, they have backed it up every single time that Rod has broken and it’s been absolutely incredible. So I’ve, you know, they’ve been, been great. Yeah, so I’m, I’m starting off my, my 30th year this spring of guiding people fishing and Wow. You know, it’s, it’s been a lot of fun on the, on the gear end of things, getting to see everything go through. But we’re really fortunate that we have a lot of great manufacturers out there that, you know, what I tell folks, and I really strongly believe this, is that you need to go out and cast a rod and have it work for you. Carl (52m 36s): Just because I like any particular brand or model doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the, the best out there and you know, we try to give everything a really good shot and if someone falls in love with a piece of equipment and they love that rod and they like how it cast well that’s right for them. And you know, so we’re really fortunate that we work with a lot of brands, you know, whether that’s, you know, some of the big names like, you know, Orvis and Sage or whether that’s, you know, you know, some things, you know, we also have Amazing Rods from Echo and from Temple Fork. Yeah. All those different groups. Love it. You groups out there. Dave (53m 11s): Love it. Yeah. And I’m glad you mentioned Echo. And this segment is presented by Togiak River Lodge And we have to give a shout out to our, one of the places we’re going to this year, we’re gonna be chasing up in Alaska. We’re gonna be chasing Chinook is gonna be the focus and, and actually Echo is one of the partners on that event. So they’re gonna be, we’re gonna be giving away a big echo spay rod, which is gonna be great. Yeah. I, I think this day and age, you know, there’s so many great brands out there that they’re kind of, they’re kind of all good. But, but for you on that end, we talked about Minnesota today, you’ve obviously got a ton of resources. Where are you looking out, where would you like to go? I’m not sure if you do much travel, but outside of Minnesota are, are there anything on your bucket list places you’re looking at? Carl (53m 48s): You know, even though I love and get a huge chance to fish all around Minnesota all the time, you know, we just love covering ground and exploring both all around the inner mountain west. I’m a cutthroat addict, so I love getting out and fish fishing cutthroat, you know, we’re gonna be doing some both, some in the lower 48 and we’ll be poking around Ferny and British Columbia this summer as well. So just a lot of off grid, amazing cutthroat options. And you know, at the end of this week we’re gonna be spending some time fishing Puerto Rico for Tarpon for a while, so. Oh wow. You know, just, I’m a big saltwater fan. Carl (54m 30s): You know, it’s as a warm water and cold water guide up here in Minnesota. We have a huge amount of people during the winter that want to go and fish saltwater. So we, we do a lot of training people how to double haul, how to present. And what I tell people is that if you can learn to be a great small mount bass angr, you’re gonna do really well for bonefish. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of similarities. Gotta double haul in the drift boat for small melts sometimes And putting a double haul into the wind for bonefish is, is a good option too. Is key. Is key. So yeah, so we we travel a lot and love to tell stories about those locations so we, you know, you can keep an eye out and stuff for like American Fly Fishing Magazine we work with closely and I always have some good content with them about some of our adventures. Dave (55m 22s): Perfect. Well we bet We’ve talked about a ton of great, it sounds like Minnesota is, is amazing. And obviously we mentioned we, we were out there this year. Give us some downside. What is the downside of Minnesota? I guess you have the cold, other than that, it sounds like a pretty amazing place for, for fly fishing with all the species. But what, what would you say are, what keeps you, what keeps you there and what are some of the struggles there? Carl (55m 43s): You know, certainly on the, on the struggle end of things. Yeah. The cold, I’m, I’m not, that’s today at negative, at negative two, but that, that drives our fly tying in the middle of the winter and you know, and as I mentioned, one of those great locations down in the Driftless South branch, the Root River that’s open and fishable right now. Like yeah, that fishing, it’s Dave (56m 6s): Not negative too there right now probably Carl (56m 7s): It is not. And with the Spring Creeks they fish so well during the winter. It’s just amazing. The nymphing is top notch. What I really love about Minnesota is the vast diversity that you can go from fishing, migratory sail mons in Lake Superior tributaries to resident trout, to spring creeks, to warm water, to, you know, big toothy predators and have just these best, you know, like best shots at, you know, like you want a 50 inch muskie. You have that shot here. Dave (56m 39s): Yeah, you do. Carl (56m 40s): And so, you know that diversity is what I think people really, really love about Minnesota as a, as a destination and the ability to get into so much cool fishing. Dave (56m 52s): Love it. Carl (56m 53s): Love it. And you know, like, and I think really what I mentioned before, the other thing is the public access. Yeah. Which is some of the best in the entire country, Dave (57m 2s): Right? Yeah. In the public access. And we, we noticed that too as well. So, so this is great Carl. I think we’re gonna have to bring you back on maybe for a follow up and dig into a little bit more detail on some of this. This has been a great overview. You’ve got obviously a bunch of resources. We’ll put in the show notes. You know, anything else before we head outta here? We missed on Minnesota? You wanna make sure people are aware of, Carl (57m 21s): It’s hard to cover everything in Minnesota and you know, but we tried in fly fishing Minnesota as a book. There is so much that you can dig into with over a three 50 page book there that we didn’t even touch here. Yeah. And although I’d like to keep talking about it, I just tell people, you know, dig into the book, get the book and you know, and then go from there and you can explore throughout the state, the companion piece, Minnesota Fly Fishing maps, you know, we couldn’t include all the maps for Rivers and Streams that we wanted to in the big book ’cause it just got too large. And so we created a spiral bound travel companion piece with all of the river and stream maps plus all those rivers that we wanted to map but couldn’t find space for. Carl (58m 8s): And so that’s why we created that as a standalone separate travel piece so that people can find their way and, you know, get all that access information for rivers and streams around Minnesota. Dave (58m 20s): Love it. Love it. This is perfect. So, so we’ll leave it there and then remind us again the best place to your website where people can go check out all this information. Carl (58m 27s): Yep. People can find us online@namabinny.com. N nam me BIN i.com. You can always follow us on Instagram or Facebook and find us on social media as well. Dave (58m 39s): And what is the name of Binny? What somebody who doesn’t know that name? What, what is that? Where does that come from? Carl (58m 45s): That is the original Ojibwe or Anishinaabe name for the Sucker River here on the Minnesota North Shore that we have done a ton of conservation work that, you know, we’re sitting in the watershed of right here. So it’s our home water here, that’s Brook Trout River on the Minnesota North Shore. Dave (59m 3s): Gotcha. Perfect. All right Carl. Well thanks again for everything today and we’re excited to keep in touch with you. Hopefully we’ll see you up at the show, you know, eventually here and maybe get on the water with you as well. Thanks again. Carl (59m 14s): Sounds great. Thanks so much. It’s been a lot of fun. I’ll look forward to being in contact. Have a good one. Dave (59m 21s): All right, if you haven’t already, check in with Carl. Check in with the show coming up here and, and see what they have for availability. If you’re looking for a guide trip, they’ve got a lot going on. If you want a resource, probably the best resource out there, check in with Carl and ask him what they could do for you right now. All right, we don’t have a lot of time here because we got a big day, but I just want to say if you get a chance, check out youtube@wetlyswing.com slash YouTube. We’re gonna be posting more videos there as we go. There’s gonna be lots of interesting sneak peeks and behind the scenes stuff as well. So subscribe to us and follow us there if you wanna keep this conversation going further. And big shout out to Togiak River Lodge. We’re kicking off the big event next week. Dave (1h 0m 3s): We’re gonna be giving away a spot to Togiak, but also we’re gonna be planning this trip. If you’re interested in going to Togiak River Lodge and fishing for King Salmon with me this year, send me an email, dave@welifeswing.com and I’ll let you know about availability. Got a small group of people going there, so this one’s gonna go fast. But if you’re interested, check in with me and we’ll get you the details. All right. That’s all I have for you. I hope you have a great morning. I hope you have a wonderful afternoon or if it’s evening, wherever you’re in the world, even if that’s on the other side of the ocean. I’m glad you stuck around to the very end and check in with me if you haven’t already, but have a great one, we’ll talk to you soon. 2 (1h 0m 39s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

717 | Tim Cammisa’s Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies from the Best Anglers in the World

By

Dave

-

February 10, 2025

Take a quick moment and think about what your top 5 euro nymphing flies are right now. If you could only have five flies to use on the water, what would they be?

Today’s guest picked his top flies straight from some of the best fly anglers around the world. And now, he’s sharing the stories behind them, how to fish them, and a few tips to help you step up your game on the water this year.

Tim Cammisa—fly fishing show celebrity, author, and all-around go-to guy—is back with his new book on Euro nymphing patterns. But it’s not just Euro nymphs. We’re getting into it all!

Have you ever tried fishing a super light nymph in the wind? Want to know the best pheasant tail material and what makes his selection stand out? Tim’s got answers. We’ll also hear about his top picks for pheasant tail material and breaking down five of the best flies in the game. Plus, discover why your dry fly should act like a soggy diaper.

Show Notes with Tim Cammisa on his Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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Tim Cammisa’s New Book

Tim Camisa has a new book about Euro nymph flies, and we’re diving into why he chose this topic. Euro nymphing started as a niche technique in the U.S., with little information available outside Europe.

That changed when anglers like George Daniel and Devin Olsen shared what they knew. Tim was drawn in, fishing with Josh Miller in Pennsylvania and quickly realizing how effective Euro nymphing could be. Even his wife didn’t believe his numbers at first!

Check out our episodes with Devin Olsen and Gilbert Rowley if you want to hear more about Euro nymphing.

Tim’s first book, Fly Tying for Everyone, was a hit, but finding another topic to write about wasn’t easy. His good friend Josh Miller was writing a book on nymphing techniques, and that’s when it clicked for Tim that no one had written a book just about the euro nymphing flies.

Tim’s Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies

In his book, Tim included 15 main euro nymphing fly patterns with 15 variations. The flies are grouped into different types:

Perdigons
Nymphs
Junk flies
Streamers
Dry flies

1. Gasolina Perdigon

The Perdigon is a must-have for fishing fast water because it sinks to the strike zone fast. Originally a Spanish fly, its name means “pellet,” which fits its quick descent. Many anglers, especially in competitions, fish perdigons in tiny sizes paired with large beads to help them sink even faster.

Gasolina, created by David Arcay, is a flashy fly with an oil-slick look that changes colors when wet. Some anglers use a special European material for its body, but in the U.S., Hends 233 is the closest match. Gasolina comes in light, medium, and dark shades, giving anglers more options to match conditions.

How to fish the perdigon:

It is often paired with heavier flies like mop flies or eggs.
It is sometimes used as a dropper fly while the heavier fly drifts along the bottom.
Sometimes fished in fast currents where quick-sinking flies are key.

2. Simple Pheasant Tail

*https://tacticalflyfisher.com/products/weiss-simple-pheasant-tail-nymph*

The Pheasant Tail Nymph is a must-have fly. Frank Sawyer first tied it using just wire and pheasant tail, making it one of the simplest and most effective patterns. Grégory Juglaret, a top French angler, swears by it as his go-to fly.

Tim highlights a variation—the Simple Pheasant Tail by Pat Weiss. It uses only pheasant tail, wire, and red thread. The key is the bleached ginger pheasant tail, which creates a natural light-to-dark effect.

Watch my Pheasant Tail Nymph Tutorial Here:

3. Worm Fly

The San Juan Worm and Squirmy Wormy are some of the most effective flies. But they’ve also stirred debate. Some anglers love them because they catch tons of fish. Others say they make things too easy.

Tim talked to David Highes, the creator of the Squirmy Wormy, and learned that the first one glowed in the dark. Some competitions even banned it because it worked too well. While many pros swear by worm flies, some European anglers refuse to use them.

Lance Egan from Fly Fish Food points out that worms naturally wash into the water during high flows, just like grasshoppers fall in. And he says if matching the hatch is the goal, why not fish a worm when conditions call for it? Tim adss that in the end, fly fishing is all about choosing your own path.

4. Jig Bugger

The Jig Bugger is a simple but effective streamer that works great during high water events. It’s tied on a jig hook with a tungsten bead, a marabou tail, and a flashy body. Many anglers like it because it’s easy to tie and catches fish.

How to Fish It:

Dead Drift: Let it float naturally with the current.
Jigging: Raise your rod tip slightly every few feet to create movement.
Stripping: Let it swing, then strip it back to trigger a chase.
Cross-Currents Retrieve: Slowly pull it sideways as it sinks.

Start subtle, then get more aggressive. If nothing bites, try a bigger bead size or change colors. Black and white in sizes 10-12 are solid choices.

5. Lubos Roza’s Rockerka

The fifth must-have fly is a dry fly. You might wonder why a dry fly is in a book about nymphing. Many top anglers, including Pete Erickson and Michael Bradley, use them in dry-dropper setups. A dry fly can help keep a nymph in the right drift.

Lubos Roza’s Rockerka is a unique dry fly that stands out for its simple yet effective design. It’s tied with red thread, a flashy crystal flash or floss tail, and an entire body made of CDC fibers. The CDC is spun into a dubbing loop, creating a dense, fluffy shape. This fly is super buoyant when pretreated and can be fished in multiple ways—dead drift, dry dropper, or even stripped like a streamer.

Take a look at this video of Lubos Roza tying the Rockerka:

Why your dry fly should act like a soggy diaper

Tim compares the perfect dry fly to a soggy diaper—one that barely stays afloat. The moment a fish even nudges the nymph, the dry fly reacts. Some top anglers even set the hook when they see ripples moving away from the fly! This level of precision helps detect subtle takes and land more fish.

Watch my summary of the top 5 Flies from the best fly anglers from all around the world!

Follow Tim on Instagram @troutandfeather

Subscribe to Tim’s YouTube Channel @TimCammisa

Visit Tim’s Website at TroutandFeather.com

Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies Related Podcast Episodes

576 | Modern Euro Nymphing Masterclass with Gilbert Rowley

WFS 554 – Fly Fishing Travel Tips with Tim Cammisa – Trout & Feather, Gear, Fishing Iceland

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Episode Transcript

Dave (2s): Take a quick moment and think about what your top flies are right now. If you could only have five flies to use on the water tomorrow, what would they be? Today’s guest has his top flies, which come from direct communication with some of the best fly anglers from around the world. And today you’re gonna get the backstory on these flies, how to fish them, and some tips and tricks so we can prove your game on the water this year. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, I’m Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a kid, grew up around a fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts out there. Dave (47s): I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and fly tires than just about anyone in the world. Tim Camisa fly fishing show, celebrity author and a go-to guy for inspiration is here to shed some light on his new book on Euro nymph patterns. And it’s not just Euro nymphs. Today we’re gonna get into it all. You’re gonna find out how to fish a super light nymph in the wind. You’re gonna find out how to select the best pheasant tail material and what that variation looks like for Tim. And also what this CDC Blob fly is all about. We’re gonna find out about this fly. We’ve got, like we said, five of the best in the world. Plus you will find out why you want your dry fly to act like a soggy diaper in the water when fishing at dry dropper. Dave (1m 32s): We’re gonna talk about that as well. We’re gonna talk dry flies and I think we got a couple flies here that are gonna really surprise you. So let Tim take it away and explain the behind the scenes. Here we go. Tim Camisa from trout and feather.com. How’s it going Tim? Tim (1m 49s): Dave, it is wonderful to be back. How’s everything going on your end? It’s Dave (1m 53s): Going good man. It’s always good to talk to you. I think I, I think we’re up to three or four episodes now, which is great. I think the more chat with you, like I always say, you’ve always got a big smile on your face and I love smiles and all that. So how, how’s the year been going for you? Tim (2m 6s): Oh my gosh. I mean, I know we’re, we are recording this in early 2025, so the year is like just off to the start. But I mean, 2024 was a wonderful year, great year for fishing. Lots of stuff, you know, in the fly fishing world. I mean, yes, it was really good. Dave (2m 19s): Yeah, great, great. Well, yeah, as you speak, it’s January now. This episode will probably come out in about a month. It’ll be February, but you’ll be right in the middle of show season, which is, I know you’re always a, a big celebrity, right? I, I love it how bad, you know, sets his dad and it’s always a celebrities. I love it. I mean, you’re a, do you feel out there? Do you feel like a celebrity? Tim (2m 38s): No, I mean I’m still, like, whenever I walk around these shows, and I think you’re referencing like in 2025 I’ll be, you know, headlining and, and a featured presenter at the Fly Fishing Show in Denver, in Lancaster, Pennsylvania over in Edison, New Jersey. And I’ll be headlining the Midwest Fly fishing expo. And Dave, I mean I know I’ve said this so many times, but anytime I’m at these shows I still feel like I’m a little kid. ’cause I used to go to the shows whenever, you know, I was an early teen whenever I was 10, 11 years old. So I seriously will just like be walking past a sign and see my name on the sign and wanna like pinch myself to be like, I remember 30 years ago when I was that kid walking up to that sign, like reading it saying like, whose presentation do I want to go see? Like who’s gonna gimme all the secret flies or how to catch all the fish And now like to see my name on the other side. Tim (3m 22s): It’s just, it definitely is a very humbling site every time I see it. Dave (3m 26s): That is really cool. And I’ve seen out there on just following you on social a little bit, you’ve been connecting with, you know, you got some good stuff out there, some great na you know, and maybe talk about that. Who are some of the guys you’ve been connecting with over the last couple years? Some big names that we should know about? Tim (3m 39s): Yeah, well, I mean, I guess to kind of tell your audience a little bit about where I’ve come from. I mean, I’ve been invested in fly fishing for about 35 years, but a little bit over a decade ago or somewhere in that timeframe, I started a YouTube channel. And it just started with, I originally was doing a lot of fly tying, you know, presentations. I was tying a lot of patterns and then it kind of took off to the point where I was giving a lot of my fly fishing presentations online and, and just kind of, you know, filling in with a lot of niche videos that may relate to European nim finger or dry flies. And then somewhere along the way I realized, like, you know, going back to that little kid in me, I grew up just looking up to some of these legends of fly fishing. I mean, we’re talking about like the lefty craze, the Dave Whitlocks, the Joe Humphreys. Tim (4m 21s): And now here I am in a position, I’m going to these fly fishing shows and I’m fishing around the country and around the world and I’m fishing with these people, like the people that I look up to. And I said to myself like, here I am in this prime opportunity. Sure I can make, you know, YouTube videos and promotes my social media on, you know, little things like dry flies and you know, the best streamer flies and that stuff is wonderful, but why not just dedicate some time to interviewing some of these legends of fly fishing? So I, I come up with a list every year and I say to myself, I plan on interviewing, you know, three to five of these people in the next year. I make it a point to get out there and we’re talking about people like Tom Rosenbauer of Orvis, people like Joe Humphreys recently I interviewed Tom Bolts, he’s a really famous angler from central Pennsylvania that, you know, has been guiding for 50 years. Tim (5m 7s): I mean, the guy is just an absolute legend. He’s developed fly patterns that are just known around the country. So, you know, I’ve, I’m really just trying to take some of that time and really give back to, to fly fishing and just to make sure that we know that these are the legends that came before us. Let’s, let’s kind of, you know, look up to them a little bit longer. Yeah, Dave (5m 25s): That’s great. No, I love that. Well good. Well I think tonight we’re gonna bounce around a little bit here and, and I want to get caught up in things, but you have a new book out and I wanna start there because I think this book is, I just got off, I was just telling the story, recent episode Gilbert Rowley, and I’m not sure if he’s in the book ’cause I haven’t read the whole thing, but we just did episode with Gilbert last year and it was one of our most listened to episodes of the year and you know, and not just because of Euro nipping or comp, but I mean I think that there’s something there, right? I don’t know what it is about the European nipping, the, all that stuff, but you wrote a book basically focusing on the flies. Talk about that, that how does this book come to be? Why do you focus on this and not any of the other topics you could have touched on? Tim (6m 2s): Ooh, that’s a great question. I mean, well let, let’s start with the notion of, you know, European Ming. I mean it, it has definitely, it was one of those topics that when people first started hearing about it, whenever I say people I’m talking about, you know, mainly anglers in the United States, it was kind of this underground thing where you heard about this new style of fishing and you were dredging these Czech nims and they were really heavy, but whenever you would fish them you would just catch fish like you were using a vacuum cleaner. It was one of these deals and it was all kind of secretive because most of the information was coming out of Europe, it was still written in Europe. There weren’t a lot of videos at the time. And it was kind of that unknown where we, we were just kind of grasping at straws and trying to figure out how to put a system together. Then some of the key players, at least from my perspective, people like George Daniel who wrote just an, an enormous, you know, book about this and really just kind of broke the ice and kind of put himself out there as this is a person who’s willing to share information and not just hoard it to himself. Tim (6m 56s): And then, you know, one of my mentors, Devin Olson, he was a member of, still is a member of Fly fishing team, USA and you know, he put out blogs and videos and started a website and just was on podcasts talking about it. And somewhere in between George and Devin, you know, I heard about it, I got invested to it, I started fly fishing more with a friend of mine whose name is Josh Miller from my area of Pennsylvania. And I just went down that rabbit hole and, and just like, you know, it was advertised, you catch a heck of a lot more fish. I mean, I remember I came home from fishing one day and I remember telling my wife like, Hey, I caught this many fish at this spot and this many fish here. And she was looking at me, Dave, and she was like, are you lying to me? You’re lying. Tim (7m 36s): Like, she’s like, is this a fishing story? I’m like, what are you talking about? She’s like, you’re telling me like three times as many fish from last year. And I’m like, Heather, I’m not lying. It’s Euro nymphing. Yeah. So that was kinda like my introduction to the topic, if that makes sense. Dave (7m 50s): Yeah, yeah, I love that. No, and I love you mentioned Josh Moore because we’ve been chatting with him. We’re gonna have him on the podcast soon and he’s a huge reason why I think the youth team and team USA has won. I think last year they swept the whole podium and I feel like, oh my gosh, I’ve heard that he’s just the man. I mean, so Josh, you guys have a lot of history out there, right? Pennsylvania, that east part of the, the country is a mecca for Tim (8m 10s): All this. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I’m lucky to be out in this area and you know, Josh is a good friend of mine and he worked at a local fly shop And we kind of connected, ’cause we were both, you know, in this Pittsburgh area though, you know, he definitely was starting to make a name for himself in competitions and I was making a name for myself on YouTube and you know, content areas. And so, you know, we had a natural connection to each other. We’re we’re really good friends now, you know, our families hang out. So, you know, I went fishing with Josh, I think we were on our way to a show, maybe the International Fly Tying Symposium. And we stopped on this river and you know, we decided we’re gonna fish for a couple hours on our way out there. And I remember like, I’m leading, I’m going first, you know, up this river and I’m catching some fish here and there. Tim (8m 51s): And Josh is just smoking these fish. We’re talking like one after another and I’m watching Himm thinking, what the heck is he doing? And you know, eventually I say to him, Hey, what fly are you using? And he was using like a Frenchie. I’m like, well I got a Frenchie on too. And I’m like, well, how many split shot? And he’s like, well, I’m not using a split shot. I’m like, All right. And I’m, I make a few more casts and I’m like, alright, gimme your rig. Like, I’m not playing this game. Gimme your rod, you know, for friends, let me cast it. And I made this cast and it was like casting a piece of spaghetti. I mean, this thing just felt like it was all over the place. And you know, that was the beginning of the addiction of Euro nymphing. And you know, I just, I fell in love with it. I just, it was a challenge, you know, there’s a learning curve to it. Like there are in so many things, fly fishing and fly tying, but it just seemed like it wasn’t just about nymphing. Tim (9m 37s): You could also fish dry flies, you could fish streamers. You don’t have to just be fishing for trout or char. I mean, I’ve caught salmon using a Euro nymphing rig. I I’ve caught small mouth bass using a Euro nipping rig. So, you know, there’s lots of different things that you can do with that system. Yeah. Now I know you had asked me about the book and I guess somewhere, you know, after my first book had come out, it was called Fly Time for Everyone, which, you know, just blew me away that I’d been asked to write a book and I was like, I, this was, it was a really fun experience. I enjoyed it. It was an awesome project. And I was like, I think I can write another book, but you know, you gotta find that right topic. And somewhere in there I found out Josh was writing a book on Num Thing, and I’m like, oh, this is like awesome. It’s gonna be a killer book, which it is. Tim (10m 18s): And as he’s writing it, he’s, you know, he contacted me to tie some of the flies for the book. And I said to him, are you focusing on the Fliess? It really just, you know, tips, tactics and techniques. And he’s like, yeah, it’s just the latter. Yeah. And I was like, All right, cool. So I kind of planted this seed and I reached out to my publisher and I was like, Hey, I know where you are right now. You know, in the world of Euro NPH thing, I don’t think anyone’s done a book dedicated to the flies. And I think it’d be a really great thing. So I, you know, I had a call scheduled, Dave, I felt like, you know, I had this all lined up. I called Jay Nichols, I’m like, Hey, here’s my idea. And I was waiting for him to just say, yeah, Tim, you just hit it outta the park. And he was like, Tim, that’s a terrible idea. Like, I could have Devin write this book, right? I could have Josh, I could have Lance, I could have j he’s naming the names. Tim (11m 1s): And I’m like, and then, you know, as he goes on, he’s like, but the problem is, you know, George might use George’s flies and you know, Devin might just talk about Devin’s flies and he’s saying this, and though I’m thinking these are professionals, they’re not, they would do a great job. But as he’s kind of going through this, he starts to say to me, but Tim, what I need is somebody to kind of treat this book almost like they’re an editor where it’s still their book, but they have to go out, they have to interview these people, pull the information and put it all together. And you’re the only person that can do this. And I’m like, oh my gosh. Like we started off this phone call where like, I’m the worst person to write this book, and now I’m the only person to fly fishing that could do it. So he’s like, All right, just get started, you know, I’ll send you some contracts, let me know what you need. Tim (11m 42s): And it was literally just like that. I was like, off and running. So that was kind of the premise to the book where I reach out to some of the top anglers and top fly tires around the world and scheduled interviews and emails and just pick their brains about not just flies, because yeah, it started off as a book about flies, but you can’t talk to like the top five anglers in the world and just expect it to be about flies. I mean, it, it it was leaders and rods and reels and, and just so many other areas of fly fishing that we’ll get into. Yeah, Dave (12m 14s): Exactly. Yeah. So the book is, And we can, we can talk about that a little more in depth, but that’s a cool thing when I think about the Euro NPHs and just the whole thing is that it doesn’t have to be, you don’t even have to be euro nipping, right? You can use these flies for other situations. Is that the case? Do you find that people are using euro NPHs for all sorts of different things with a typical nine foot, you know, rods and all that stuff? Tim (12m 33s): Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think you really hit the nail on the head and you know, one of the people that wrote a little section for the book is Tom Rosenbauer of vus. And I really love to stress Tom’s section because he talks about, he’s like, what is a nymph? You know, I don’t even know what defines a num is just something really skinny that right sinks to the bottom and it, you know, it’s tied in the round, like, you know, and what if I don’t fish it on, you know, my euro infr, does that mean I’m outta the cool kids club? And, and so he did a really nice job of kind of teasing out what is a nu exactly, and do you have to fish it this way or else you’re not fishing it? Right? And, and the answer is no, no, these are, I mean, the flies that I have in this book, I, I really made it a point to say like, these aren’t just, you know, I don’t wanna say Euro nims, they’re not just Euro nims. Tim (13m 16s): They’re not just competition flies. I’m not a competition angler. Like, that’s not my area of expertise. The, the flies that I selected for this book are like, you know, 15 flies and 15 variations, and these are like 30 of the best flies being used today. A lot of them just happen to be used by some of the top anglers today who fish competitions too. Dave (13m 34s): Yeah, that makes sense. And maybe describe that a little bit. What did Tom say or what do you think, what is the definition of a Euro nph? What makes it a Euro nph? Tim (13m 40s): Oh gosh. I mean, I don’t know if there is one definition, and I think I’d get in trouble really trying to right, to narrow it or niche it down. I’ve heard a couple people talk about, let, let’s, let’s go to European Nim thing, because I think years ago it was really difficult for people to define it because you had all these different European teams and they all had their own little style. You had the French teams using long leaders, you had the checks using really heavy flies. And if people said, you know, are you Czech nim fing? Are you French nipping? Are you Spanish nim fing? That all meant something different. And it seems like over the last, you know, especially three or four years, there’s been this race to fish, you know, as light of a leader as possible. And that tends to be what we define as European nymphing now, where it’s just really light lines, light hooks, very sensitive rods, and you can really detect a lot of different strikes. Tim (14m 29s): That’s not the only style of euro nymphing, but that seems to be kind of the direction that everything’s heading that we can kind of cap everything under. So whenever I say to myself, All right, what are the flies that are being used in that situation? I mean, we’re talking about, you know, anglers like Howard Croton, he’s a national champion from the uk, anglers like Lubo Rosa, he’s a champion from the Czech Republic. We have an angler in the United States like Devin Olson. I mean, these are people that I, I interviewed for the book. And these are people who are fishing competitions still to this day. So you have these champions and all these medal winners, and these aren’t people that are gonna sit down and say, All right, I got, you know, three hours to tie some flies. I’m gonna take my time and tie a half a dozen. I mean, they have to be cranking these patterns out. Tim (15m 10s): So to me, you know, we’re looking at a, a pattern that’s gotta be tied in a really short amount of time, use few materials. It’s gonna be something that’s not gonna be so dialed in that it’s gonna be very specific for a hatch or as a certain bug. It’s gonna be something that fish can take as a generalistic style of pattern. The majority of nymphs in the book tend to be tied relatively slender with few appendages, you know, just so they sink a little bit faster. And I guess, you know, when I look at this, these are just general, you know, fish catching patterns. That’s how I’m gonna help to define all this stuff, right? Dave (15m 45s): Yeah, they’re just good patterns. I mean, they might be euro noms, but they’re just all around, you’re gonna find ’em in probably most people’s boxes or, or would you say most of them are pretty, people would know the names of most of these 15 flies? Tim (15m 56s): Yeah, I mean, yes and no. I think there’s a lot of different patterns out there that, that are being used today. And I tried my best to say, All right, if I was gonna really try to look at this as, let’s take a snapshot in time right now, and like this is 2025. Like if we say to ourselves what’s being used right now in 2025, I think I did a pretty good job of selecting those patterns. I also got kind of lucky at the beginning because, you know, I said to myself, I’m gonna be tying, you know, these 15 patterns, and for every 15 pattern there’s also a variation. So I have 15 patterns, 15 variations. So you got 30 patterns that are just given in their entirety in the book. You have like all this, you know, high res macro photography for those main 15, which by the way, they’re not just all nymphs. Tim (16m 38s): I have it broken down into nymphs. I have a section on paragons, I have a section on junk flies, I have a section on streamers, and I have a section on dry flies. So it’s called tying Euro nymphs, but it’s really a well-rounded selection. But then at some point I had asked, I think it was Devin Olson, you know, halfway through our interview, I said to him, Hey, if you could just carry five flies, it doesn’t matter where you’re fishing in the world, let’s just say you’re on a river medium gradient with, you know, trout or char, what are your five go-to patterns going to be? And Devin just, you know, rattled them off. So I just kind of tuck that information away and I added that question to my notes, and I got to the next angler, asked that person that question, got those five flies. And then, you know, by the end of this, I started to realize like, I have 30 confidence lists for 30 of the best anglers around the world. Tim (17m 25s): I better take a look at these lists and see to myself like, is there, you know, some commonality, commonality right? Amongst, you know, from Devin to Lance to Pat Weiss, which by the way, there were very few flies that were on every single list. There was a little bit of overlap, but looking at those lists, it caused me to kind of rethink my own and say, All right, well here is my original 15, I’m cutting these five and I’m gonna add these five in instead. And that’s kind of how my selection process came to be. Dave (17m 50s): Gotcha. That’s interesting because yeah, you, you would think that, yeah, maybe the Frenchie or whatever, the top five you would think, but there was, it sounds like a good mix of flies, like from all these guys. And, and how, how did you go into that? That’s a must be a tough thing too. You mentioned a few names, but there’s more than just 15 people out there that probably could have made the book. Right. How did you end up choosing the, the, you know, these people Tim (18m 10s): And who, Dave (18m 11s): And that was, and who’s mad at you now? Right? Tim (18m 13s): I mean, I, well, no one’s reached out to me saying they’re mad if it, I haven’t seen if anyone’s unfollowed me on social media, right? Yeah. I mean, to select the people I started off with Devin Olson. Yeah, he was the first, just because he and I, you know, we’ve made some videos together for YouTube, you know, we’ve connected at some of the shows And we have a very good relationship. You know, we text, we call, he’s somebody, you know, I’ll be out in the river, you’re an phi, and run into a problem. And I’ll text him, say, Hey, here’s what’s going on. What do you think’s happen? And he’ll tell me, he’s like, oh, here’s what you’re doing nice. And I’m like, how does he know this? Wow, he’s really good. So, you know, I started with Devvin and at the end of that phone call, kind of like you would with the podcast, I said to him, Hey, who else do I need to be talking to? Right? And he might rattle off four names and I, you know, maybe I had three of them written down, but I didn’t have that fourth. Tim (18m 54s): So I added them to the list, or it was somebody I’d never heard of. I think one of the questions I asked somebody was, who’s someone that I’ve never heard of that’s just, you know, out there and is somebody that we need to know for the future. And then somebody else’s name would come up and, you know, then I would just say the obvious, Hey, can you connect me? You know, can you share an email address or, you know, give them a call from me just so to see if they’re even interested in doing it. And I think like every single person I asked for my first round of people, they all said yes. For the second round of people, they all said yes. I think there were only like two or three people that said no. One of them, they were a European angler. I won’t say their name. There’s somebody there that always finishes in the top five. And I just think that they’re just so ultra competitive. Tim (19m 36s): They just thought maybe they would say something that would slip and they would lose their standing. I mean, when you get to the top three or four people, there’s a reason they’re, those names are repeated pretty frequently. Dave (19m 47s): Let on DeMar Lodge give you the Montana fly fishing experience You deserve. 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So tell us if you can, and we’re not gonna talk about all the flies, but can you give us five, maybe out of this book we can talk about, or four or five, something that we could say, you know, these are flies that every one of us right now listening should have these in our box. Tim (20m 49s): Yeah, well listen, I’m opening the book right now. Let me, I have, let’s see, 1, 2, 3. That’s perfect, Dave, because I have five, like, I have a bunch of chapters, but I have five that are on my main headings of flies. Okay. And so I’ll pick one from each of those headings. How about the first one would be, I’m a paragon. Yep. That’s without a doubt. I mean, paragons are really exceptional patterns. Just to give a little background on it, it’s a Spanish fly. I believe Paragon stands for pellet because it sinks like a rock. I mean, they just get to the bottom in a hurry. My original experience with a paragon was, you know, it’s something tied with a, a relatively straight tail, maybe Coke daily on a flashy body, a hotspot behind a bead, maybe a s slotted tungsten bead on a jig hook. Tim (21m 31s): And, you know, it was meant to fish in really fast water when I first started fishing with them. Anytime I would come to a relatively, you know, high gradient section of a river, that would be a fly that I would tie on just to get to the bottom in a hurry, because there’s just nothing sticking out, nothing to slow. Its descent through the water. What I kind of, whenever I, I first said to myself, All right, you know, when am I gonna be using these on a regular basis? I said to myself, and I kind of put myself in this box. It’s only going to be in a section where it’s really, really fast water. ’cause that’s what I knew about them. And, and in fact in my first book, my publisher said to me, Hey, you can use any flies you want in that first book. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’m the, the first book to ever feature the mop fly that was in fly tying for everyone. Tim (22m 12s): ’cause I’m like, I don’t think anyone has a featured, I’ll be the first person whether that’s good or bad. But my publisher did, did say out of every pattern out there, he wanted a perigon in that first book. And I said to myself at first, I wonder why he’s stressing that so much. And, and now I realize why. I mean, nearly every one of these anglers, not all, but nearly every one of them said that a perigon really belongs, you know, easily in, in the top five, almost every list, or for sure a top 10 just because of its ability to get down. What I learned from my new book is that a lot of these anglers are fishing really small paragons. Like I would say to myself, you know, sixteens, eighteens maybe twenties, but most of the anglers that I talked about, again, a lot of these competitive anglers, they were fishing eighteens twenties and 20 twos, really small paragons because they could put a larger bead on a size 22 jig or a Downey mfo. Tim (23m 3s): And that thing just sinks to the bottom in a hurry. I feature a few different paragons and a few different variations. I’d say probably the most interesting one is one that’s called a gasoline and a gasoline. It’s a really cool looking pattern. And I’d heard about it from a fly time perspective because it features this material for the body. And I guess the closest material that we have to it in the United States is called hens 2 33. You can have as a crystal flash or a little tinsel. So this gasoline, it has this crazy color, Dave, it’s, it almost looks like an oil slick. That’s why they call it a gasoline. So whenever it’s wet, it just takes on a bunch of different colors. So it just looks like a lot of stuff. It’s a flashy Pentagon. Tim (23m 43s): You know, I interviewed David rk, he’s the creator of this. He’s from Europe. In fact, he sells what you would consider to be the original gasoline material. And he sells it in multiple shades, which I kind of found interesting because, you know, in in the United States, we mainly just fish hens 2 33, and that’s the gasoline. Yet you talk to David and he’s like, oh, I got a, a, you know, a bunch of different shades of this. So there’s a light version, a medium version and a dark version. But to me, kind of the standing thing with this gasoline is, you know, these people are fishing it in very small sizes, but they’re also pairing this gasoline and they’re pairing these small paragons with larger nips, something like a mop fly, and they’re putting the mop fly on the point they’re putting, you know, this little paragon as a dropper, and they’re just letting that mop or that egg just kind of slither along the bottom and just really slow down that paragon. Tim (24m 31s): So these fish are sink something really small in the water column and just coming up and attacking it. Dave (24m 36s): Wow, that’s awesome. Yeah. And the gasoline is, it’s kind of got a flashy as it have kind of like a floss flashy body. Is that what it is? Tim (24m 43s): Yeah, it’s imagine like a body with just crystal flash. Yeah, that’s really what it is. But it has all these different hus to it. And for these paragons, you cover all them in a, in a UV resin. So they take on this, this sheen anyway, but you know, you have this sheen that’s kind of over this green, and I dunno, blues and browns, there’s all these different shades depending on how you look at it. Now, let’s be honest, if a fish is chasing down a size 20 paragon, are they gonna see all those shades? Like I, I don’t think so, but at least whenever I look at it in my box, it gives me confidence to say, All right, this thing looks pretty cool. I’m, I’m gonna get some fish on it. That’s it. Dave (25m 15s): That is awesome. Yeah. And then the, the, the paragon is more of a, what’s the body material on the paragon? Typically Tim (25m 21s): Paragon, you know, from at least my interviews with these anglers, they were two main body materials that they looked at. One of them, a lot of anglers said, Hey, we want something really flashy. So think about crystal flash or a tinsel. That would be one body material. And then another body material that I feature in the book is using thread. So saying to yourself, All right, I’m gonna use this, you know, light olive color thread, knowing that whenever it gets wet it’s gonna darken a little bit. So, you know, that would kind of be the direction I would point to your listeners if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna tie some paragons, have some flashy ones, and have some more muted or dull ones tied thread body. Dave (25m 56s): Perfect. And when do you, I mean, just from what you’ve learned, when does the flashier, do you kinda use the flashier versus the more dull type flies? When would you use one over the other? Tim (26m 7s): Oh gosh. I’d love to tell you that. Like, if it’s a cloudy day, sometimes like, you know, dark day, dark fly, bright day, bright fly, I definitely at least lean down that setting. But, you know, I, I don’t look at it like that. It’s kind of like one of those things where, you know, first of all, if I’m coming to some fast water, a paragon might be one of my first flies simply because it gets down in a hurry. But I guess to tell another story, Dave, I remember I was fishing with my wife. We were fishing on this beautiful little stream in central Pennsylvania, and we’re out there and we’re on this really slow section, just slow moving water. There was some Cass on the water, and at one point, you know, my son and my daughter were out with us and I was showing my son how to pick apart, you know, a Cais case. And we dug out the larva and I took a picture of it in his hand. Tim (26m 48s): It was this really bright green cas larvae, it was a Gran Cadis. So a little bit later he was telling my wife about it, and I said, oh, why? Let’s show mom the picture. And we showed her the picture and you know, just kind of moved on from that. And about 15 minutes after that, she hooked a really nice brown trout. This was this just big wild brown trout. So, you know, she’s fighting it. She’s been, you know, fly fishing for a number of years. She did a great job with this fish. And she lands it. And you know, as it slides into the net, you know, the first thing I’m thinking is like, what fly did she use? And I look in the fish’s mouth and it’s a paragon. I’m like, well, that was a dumb idea. Like, why would you fish a paragon in slow moving water? And she’s like, well, you know, it had this green body. I saw that green fly. I figured that’d be a good idea. Tim (27m 29s): And I’m like, Heather, you don’t use paragons in slow moving water. And now, like, fast forward to this book, I’m having like an interview with Pat Weiss, this, you know, an incredible angler from Central Pennsylvania, and he’s telling me all about his paragons. And I’m like, so Pat, you just fished these in fast water, right? And he’s like, absolutely not like slow water paragons sleigh. And I’m like, oh my gosh. Like my wife definitely had me beat there. Dave (27m 52s): Nice. That is so good. Yeah. That’s awesome. You got the, and you got the, the kids too, right? You are, you are the kids into, you have two kids, right? Tim (27m 59s): Yeah, yeah. I have a son who just turned nine and my daughter’s four. And listen, all of our vacations, all of our trips are built around fishing. So those, those kids, they have to come, you know, no matter what I mean, they have waiters, rods sometimes. My son, he prefers to throw a spinning rod over a fly rod this year. He really wants to throw a fly rod again. So it, they just go back and forth. We had them steal head fishing a few weeks ago on one of the tributaries of Lake Erie. Oh, cool. And you know, my son landed a couple fish. He would, he loved it. And my daughter, for some reason, she didn’t want to catch one because they were just so big and she was afraid she was gonna get pulled in. But, you know, eventually, you know, I hooked one, handed her the rod and she did a great job with Dave (28m 34s): It. Amazing. That’s so good. Nice. Well this is great. Well, and talk about this a little bit. Let’s just stick with the paragon for a little bit. How is it, you know, in the book, maybe you could break down just overall so people know what to expect. Are you breaking down? Talk about how you break down that book. Do you have kind of some conversations with people that tied this fly? You know, talk about that. How is each chapter broke down? Tim (28m 52s): Oh gosh. I guess, lemme take a step back. So whenever I was writing this book, imagine like, hey, every morning, you know, I’m waking up around five o’clock and I’m writing x amount of words for the book. So I’m creating a skeleton of the book. I had an idea of my sections, I had an idea of the flies, but I’m, I’m like, I, I have to, you know, get some words down on, you know, in my, in my laptop. And then aside from that, I’m scheduling these, you know, one to two hour zoom interviews. I’m sending out emails with questionnaires to these, you know, 30, you know, 30 some anglers and tires. And at some point those two have to mesh. And, you know, once I had the flies finalized and I said, All right, these are the flies. I’m gonna do a step by step of pictures. I decided, you know, how I was gonna do that. Tim (29m 34s): So, you know, macro photography came out for all that. And then the trickiest part of this whole project was saying to myself, I have all these interviews that I like typed up. I probably should have used ai, but you know, I just, I said to myself, I’m just gonna re-listen to every single interview just so I can make sure, you know, I have it written down the right way. Just because, you know, you know, just like with a podcast, it’s one thing whenever you’re in the moment, but it’s another thing when you’re kind of watching as an observer. Yep. So I, I went through and I categorized them. So say for instance, I was talking with Lance Egan about bead colors, which bead color to use on which type of a day. You know, I wanted to be able to say, All right, Lance said you use silver on this day, copper and gold on this day. And I would put those into section under beads. Tim (30m 15s): And then, you know, I would have another section on thread color, and I’d have a section on, you know, pheasant tails. And anytime, you know, somebody said something about a new topic, I would, you know, write that section down in that heading. So it kind of, at the end, the, the final component was saying to myself, alright, how do I integrate all of their quotes with my writing and, and finding, you know, just that, right? I don’t wanna say jigsaw, but that’s really what it was. Because every morning as I’m also writing that skeleton, I’m thinking about the previous interview and about what they said and, and all the other ones. So I was able to still kind of build around all of their thoughts and ideas, but then back it up with their actual quotes throughout. So whenever you look at a section like the gasoline, like let’s just say to ourself, we’re gonna first see a really beautiful picture of that fly. Tim (30m 60s): Something like, I call it one of my mirror shots. So I have a reflection picture of the fly with the recipe. Then there’s going to be a few paragraphs about the gasoline, just to give a little bit of history. There’s gonna be some quotes from the individual that developed that fly or created the fly. There’s gonna be, you know, anywhere from 15 to 20, you know, pictures of it. Each picture is gonna have a description of what’s going on. As you go through the tying procedures. You’re also gonna have a section on something that I might call like fly tying tips. So there’s a section that we’ll talk about, like, here’s something that maybe I did and I really wanna just, you know, just tease that out a little bit and go into more detail as to this fly tying technique for it. Then one of the most important ones is, you know, fishing suggestions. Tim (31m 40s): So I talk about how would you fish this fly? And I, that’s where I pulled in a lot of quotes from those anglers to say, All right, if I’m fishing with a paragon, here’s what I’m gonna do. I mean, for the Paragon, for instance, I mean, you know, one of the best fishing ideas came from Devin Olson for that one. And I remember Devon saying, you know, like, you know, he really values paragons, but it’s tough to fish a paragon on a windy day because they do sink to the bottom in a hurry. But if the wind is blowing on your leader, it can lift that fly right back up. So he’s like, you have to say to yourself, how can you get it down there and keep it down there? And he paired it with a mop fly because he’s like, Hey, those mop flies. You know, they sink like a parachute. They take forever to get to the bottom. But then let’s use that thinking and say, All right, once they’re there, it’s gonna take that much more to lift them up. Tim (32m 23s): Oh, right. So let’s fish a mop, fly on a windy day, then, you know, pair it with a something small like that paragon. And you know, that’s kind of one of his go-to rigs in the wind. So there you go. You know, getting that type of information and then finding its home in the book, that was the tricky part. That’s where it really caused me to, to do a lot of thinking, Dave (32m 40s): Finding like where that, that’s really interesting. I remember when, you know, I asked the John Roc, you know, RID Yeah. You know, and I, he has on the podcast and, and I always ask him about his process in writing books, you know, obviously John Giro, and he said a similar thing. It was like, you don’t want your book to be like your watching your, your uncle’s slideshow from Hawaii vacation, right? Where it’s like, here’s the start, here’s the start, then here’s a fish. It sounds like you, is that part of the beauty of writing books? You kind of find that mix where it’s not about start to end, it’s just you find your own mix. Tim (33m 11s): Yeah, that’s exactly right. I, Dave, I don’t think I’ve told this to anybody. I wrote the introduction to this book three times. I wrote it three separate times, not realizing I had written it those other times. And at the very end, whenever I went to put all my sections together, I’m like, oh my gosh. Like, I wrote my intro three times and it was written three different ways. One of the three I did not like, it may have been my first one. I was like, All right, that one’s trash, but I’m looking at these next two and I’m like, oh my gosh, like, these are both really good. Like I, you know, when you’re kind of taking a step back, I’m like, I did a nice job with these intros and it was like, which 1:00 AM I gonna pick? And that’s kind of one of the struggles of being a writer is that, you know, once you start getting that stuff down and you do have to remove some of that, it’s like, you know, you, you, you’re throwing a piece of you away in a sense. Tim (33m 56s): So no, no, John, you know, he’s definitely at another level from, from any of us. Right. At least from me. Dave (34m 2s): Right, right, right. Well this is good. So we started off with the paragon. Let’s keep this rolling here. What would be a second pattern you’d say if we had to have four or five patterns in our box? Everybody should have these. What’s the number two? Tim (34m 11s): Oh gosh, I think I’ll go with an easy one, and I don’t wanna take the easy way out, but my second section is considered nymphs with dubbing and soft tackle. Oh, nice. So if we say to ourselves, Perigon sink fast, now let’s start building some stuff. So maybe like a, a thorax that’s, that’s a dubbed thorax or something with a little bit of c, DC for the hackle. And I have, I don’t know, I have four or five of like my top flies of all time in that section. So it’s really tricky. But I think the pattern that I’ll kind of point to is going to be a pheasant tail. And the reason I say that is because, you know, out of all those confidence flies, there was really one fly that kind of just has stood the test of time that nearly every angler said, this is one of my go-tos. Tim (34m 51s): In fact, Gregory jut, he’s a French angler, whenever I asked him about his five, he was, he kinda laughed and he’s like, Tim, there’s only one, it’s the pheasant tail, right? Like that’s it. Like this is a top three angler in the world and he’s fishing like one fly the majority of the time. Dave (35m 5s): Wow. One of the oldest, right? Like, but what, you know, the history probably a little about one of the oldest flies that’s out there, right? Tim (35m 10s): Yeah. I mean this, it’s a Frank Sawyer. Yeah, franker creation. It was originally tied with just wire and pheasant tail. I mean, it was a nothing fly. I mean, he developed this, I believe, for chalk streams over in England. So, you know, kind of knowing that, that it has that, that history, it’s a basic fly that could just represent so many different, you know, forms of food for fish. Just knowing that, like it’s out there. Now, I did say to myself, I can’t just tie like the typical pheasant tale because, and I’ll, I’ll point back to something that my publisher told me in my first book. He was like, Tim, I don’t want you to have the parachute atoms in your book. Like it’s been done. It’s in many books, you can find it everywhere. Like there’s no reason to try to recreate the wheel. So I said to myself like, you know, I have to have versions of the SSO tail in this book. Tim (35m 52s): And of course I’m gonna talk about the main version, but can I also just kind of highlight a new one that maybe not everyone knows about? And the pattern that I share is this pattern called the simple pheasant Tail. And this is a pattern that was developed from Pat Weiss, you know, the central Pennsylvania angler. And Pat is somebody that your listeners probably don’t know too much about now if they follow fooling mill at all on social media. Fooling Mills mentions his name quite frequently because they carry a ton of his patterns. He’s just got a bunch of flies to catch fish. He’s one of these competition anglers that, you know, as I like to say about him, if he’s in a room with other comp anglers and he starts talking, everyone gets quiet because they wanna know what he has to say. Tim (36m 32s): He’s just one of those people that he’s gonna catch fish wherever he goes. He’s a hunter, he’s gonna be successful whenever he’s in the woods. He’s just that guy. So there’s a couple flies that he’s kind of really known for, especially in the Pennsylvania area. But the one that, you know, I gravitated to this simple pheasant tail. It’s tied with like one material, it’s just tied with pheasant tail. But the tricky part is it’s a bleached ginger pheasant tail. And it kind of threw me off because, you know, Pat’s a really secretive dude. He’s one of those guys that like, you’ll ask him a question and he won’t lie to you. He just won’t tell you everything. And he kind of gotta put it, put the rest together. So, you know, sure enough, like I was talking to him about this fly and he gave me a little bit, but I felt like there was more. Tim (37m 14s): So I, you know, I was texting him and he gave me a little bit more, and I’m looking at pictures of this fly and I just, it’s something just wasn’t right to me. And it’s because, you know, they’ll find a, a true bleached ginger pheasant tail. It’s tough to do. So for anyone out there who gets this book, and I’m, I’m sure I say this in the book as well, like, I had ordered bleached ginger pheasant tails from fly shops from around the country. I think I ordered like six or seven sets. And I even went to a couple of local fly shops, and I’m the person that when I go, I will remove every single one from the bid and look them over. And it was really tough to find a true one because what you’re looking for, whenever you’re looking at the back of a pheasant tail, a bleached one, you want the tips of it to be relatively light, and it should be darker by the center, darker by that stem. Tim (37m 59s): And the reason that, that pat looks for them, that color, imagine this like you’re tying in the pheasant tail, the tips is the tail. Yeah. And it’s really bleached and it’s lighter by the tail. So as you start winding that forward, it’s gonna give you a relatively lighter abdomen for the fly. But if the center of that pheasant tail, if it’s darker, and as you continue winding it up, it starts to darken as the fly moves forward. So by the time you get to the thorax, it’s a dark thorax kind of like, you know, natural insects out there. So Pat found a way to take one material, a pheasant tail, create something that’s different than everyone else’s pheasant tail, but also find a way to have it replicate all the natural insects out there. And this is a fly that works for cadi, it works for like may flies, like the light cahill like sulfur. Tim (38m 43s): I mean, it’s just a fly that will catch fish in a lot of different situations. So I think he originally called it like the stupid simple pheasant tail. And I think fooling those said, All right, get the word stupid out of, right. We’re just gonna call the simple pheasant tail. Yeah. And it’s stuck. There’s no, no material for the thorax, there’s no dubbing or anything like that. There’s no CDC, it’s just like, I don’t know, pheasant tail wire and red thread. And that’s really it. Dave (39m 7s): It’s pheasant tail. I mean, it’s literally the original even simpler than the original, right? Yeah, the original was pretty simple because it had the, the only difference it had the thorax and the peacock, which is one big thing I always said, I love peacock. Yeah. I feel like peacock is one of those natural materials that’s just amazing. But it just shows you this fly works just as effective it sounds like, without the peacock. And it’s amazing. Do you think, I mean, and of course there are flies that are just floss bodies too. So it, what is it about these flies? What, what would you tell somebody who isn’t a master of the fly or the etymology, the tying, why do these super simple? Is it just about getting down weight? Is that a big part of it? Tim (39m 40s): I don’t know. I don’t wanna say that because I, I think a lot of these anglers, the more I talk to ’em about the notion of nymphing, they’re not dredging the bottom. They’re, they’re not really just bouncing these flies along the bottom. A lot of ’em are fishing them a lot higher up in the water column than, than people like me originally thought. And so knowing that they’re really trying their best to have the fish, you know, take them as they’re in the drift. So it’s not just about dredging the bottom and doing that, you know, with flies like that, I mean, I’d love to tell you a fish looks at a pheasant tail and a pheasant tail fiber has all these es all these little fibers on it that should move and should breathe in the water. But again, I don’t know if the fish can see that Well, when they were, they’re far away. Yeah. To me, i, i, I just wonder, does it look like something buggy? Tim (40m 21s): Does it look like something they see on a regular basis? Or in that flies case, does it look like something they don’t see on a regular basis and they say, Hey, let’s try this out. You know, I, I think, you know, any of us would just be kidding if we think we could figure out exactly why a fish eats. But there is something about that pheasant tail that’s just, is it natural? Is it something that just looks like so many of their, their food sources? I mean, I think you can make an argument that if you have a traditional pheasant tail, you could look at that and say to yourself, that kinda looks like a case for a case cadis. Like they could eat that as a CADs. That’s true. Could eat that as a may fly. Like they could eat that as in a merger. I mean, you know, with some of these pheasant tails, if you add just one or two turns of C, d, C and you take off the bead, that’s like one of my favorite dry flies of all time now. Tim (41m 4s): So, you know, there’s just so many different things you can do with that pattern. It, it just really seemed to attract the fish. Dave (41m 12s): Stay warm stay focused and don’t let the cold dictate. Quitting time with heated cores, advanced base layer technology. Hydro wick fabric wicks away moisture while undetectable. Carbon fiber, heating elements target key areas to keep you dry and warm all day long. I had a troubling experience fishing a New York steelhead stream while in December I was fishing it and my feet, my legs, I was getting cold. I literally felt like things were freezing. I had to step outta the water and I literally had to stop fishing and then I watched somebody else take that steelhead. So never again for me. I’m sticking with heated core, lightweight and unrestricting. You can stay on the water all day with three levels of heat and a rechargeable 7.4 lithium ion battery heated core may just be your ticket to more time on the water this season. Dave (42m 4s): Well, I think we’re, we got a good start here. Let, let’s keep this rolling. Let’s go to number three. What do you, if you had to say number three, everybody should have the fly in, in, in your box. And, and again, we’re not going deep on all of this, but I think it’s a taster. Give people, you know, wet their whistle a little bit. Tim (42m 18s): Ah, cool. Let’s get onto the next section. So the next section, I call this one slow sinkers. And I kind of looked at this as, All right, what are some patterns that take a little bit longer to get to the bottom? We’re talking about flies like the mop. And in this case, I think the one that I’ll probably share, gosh, this is a tricky one. Let’s go with the notion of fishing a worm. Yeah. ’cause I think that was a fly, and I think this will be a good talking point that caused a little bit of a riff in my book. We’ll say that now. Let’s take a step back. Yeah. Whenever I say a worm, I mean, in the book I feature a couple different worm patterns. Dave (42m 51s): Yeah. When you say worm to me, I always think, yeah. First thing I think of a San Juan worm. You know, that’s always like, All right, San Juan worm. Absolutely. Tim (42m 57s): And I have a picture of the original one in my book. ’cause you know what? I’ve been doing this since I was 10, that’s 35 years ago. Like, that was my first one. Yep. David, it’s like, that was the one, it was like, you had to find that right size chail. And you know, I remember like, I think it was Veril and you had, I, I remember burning the ends with the burners. Sometimes I would slide them through a bead. I, you know, that was my go-to fly for so many years. And then when the squirmy worm came out, it kind of exploded onto the fly fishing scene. Right. And I wanted to feature that because there’s just something that’s, I don’t know, the squirmy worm is just one of those flies that it just catches fish for so many different species. So I said to myself, All right, who’s the guy that created the squirmy worm? His name’s David Highes. I’m gonna interview David. Tim (43m 38s): So I reached out, had a great interview with him, which was super cool to be able to say, like, my book features the guy that created and invented the squirmy Warby. So that was like, that was awesome. So I have a whole section on that, which by the way, the first one was Glow in the Dark. You hit it with a UV torch and it glows. Wow. And that was the, the first one that he saw. I think he was in like a, a craft store or a party store with his kids. And he saw that material and he was like, Ooh, that’d make a good fly. And he was in line, and he was about to check out, and he was like, I think I should go back and get this just in case. And he did. And you know, everything’s changed since. But then in the competition world flies, like the squirmy whammy or that fly specifically, it’s gotten banned in a lot of competitions. Oh, Dave (44m 16s): Wow. Tim (44m 17s): So like now you’re, you’re talking about like art. You have a fly that, like people were saying it catches too many fish, which, which is so crazy to even believe that. But I, so for everyone out there like know that there are competitions that you’re not allowed to fish that fly, where they, they literally changed the regulations just so you can’t use a squirmy Warby. Wow. So, which, which should tell everyone if you’re not fishing competitions, it works like, yeah, know that number one. But I also wanted to make sure I was looking at this from a well-rounded perspective, and I’m like, All right, well the squirmy works, but a lot of these anglers aren’t using the squirmy, so what’s their go-to fly now? And so many of them, I, And we we’re wonderful. And the fly they’re using is kind of a, a Chanel version. And there are many different anglers that I talked to. Tim (44m 59s): But now let’s go back to our original San Juan Dave. Like that’s what we’re talking about. Like this micro Chanel stuff that’s even finer than the ones that we used. I mean, these were super fine down to, I can’t even remember how, how small, I think the, the Sue Shail that I used for one of the flies. It’s a, it’s a semper fly material. And it was one millimeter. I mean, it just, it’s just a really tiny diameter of stuff. And some of the anglers that I talked to about the worms were people like Noah Shapiro, and Noah is a member of the youth team. Because I said to myself, I don’t want just like all the adults, why don’t I find some members of the youth team out there and talk to them as well? So I did. So I interviewed a number of the youth team members and, and I remember Noah’s interview specifically because, you know, he really loved talking about the worm. Tim (45m 41s): And he, you know, he kept telling me about all these fish. And I was like, well, Noah, tell me how do you tie this worm? And he got a little sheepish and he’s like, Tim, it’s literally like a hook a bead, and then you jam the material right against the hook. Yeah. And you tie in like 10 strands of thread and then that’s it. That’s the whole fly. And I’m like, no, there’s gotta be like something to prevent it from fouling. He’s like, no, Tim, like, that’s literally it. This is like 10 terms of thread, maybe a little super glue. Wow. And you’re done. And I was like, oh my gosh. Which, you know, other anglers had other versions of that fly that are also shared in the worm section. I think I have multiple flies. That’s one of the few that has a couple different patterns that I share. But then, you know, after having that interview, I remember talking to a few other anglers and I realized that a lot of anglers, especially some of the European anglers, they are really opposed to worm fishing and to them, because it’s almost too easy. Tim (46m 33s): Oh, wow. And a lot of them said, you know, something along the lines of if you, you know, you could have a really poor fishing technique and still catch fish on a worm. And they said that, and, and you know, as the writer of this book now, I, I’m, I’m, you know, I’m rolling into a dilemma like, alright, I have like 15 people that say like, this is one of their ride or die flies. And I have 15 other anglers that are saying like, if you use this, I’ll never talk to you again for the rest of your life. And I’m like, oh shoot. Like what do I do here? And you know, as the person writing this book, I thought, listen, again, this is a snapshot of today. Like this is right now. Like, I want this to be as accurate as possible. I used everyone’s quotes. So for the people that said like, Hey, this is not for me. Tim (47m 13s): There’s a section on, you know, for them that’s talking about why they’re opposed to the worm. And I think it’s important to, to have that out there to say like, this is why this person who happens to be a top 10 angler doesn’t use worms and doesn’t think you should either. And, and here’s another section on, you know, people like, I dunno, Cody Bergdorf from the United States team, or public tro Pinos from Spain. And about saying like, here’s how you select the right material when you do tie a worm. And so I wanted to have kind of both perspectives in there. Dave (47m 40s): Nice. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And what is the, I guess on the, an, you mentioned one of ’em, it’s too easy, but what would be another objection to using the worm? Is it, other than it’s too, is there any other good objections that came up? Tim (47m 52s): I think there was a section on there. I talked a little bit about an interview whenever I talked with Lance Egan. And I wouldn’t say that he did not object to the worm. He really loves using worms. I shouldn’t say really loves, I I, I don’t wanna put that word in his mouth. Yeah, Dave (48m 5s): But he’s not against him. No, Tim (48m 6s): He’s not against them for sure. But he works in a fly shop called Fly Fish food. You know, you, I’m sure you know that, you know, you know, you know our boys out there. Yep. And Lance is, he was, he was telling me during our, during our interview that, you know, he gets a lot of customers that come in, they’re opposed to using worms. And he said to them, why? And they’re like, well, we prefer to match the hatch. Right. And he’s like, well, let’s talk about this. Like, we’re not talking about like a garden worm, we’re talking about an analy. And during high water events, you know, the water rushes through, you know, through the sides of the bank and it washes lys into the water. So you’re telling me like, you wanna match the hatch. Like, wouldn’t you want to after a high water event, fish these worms to match the hatch? Dave (48m 46s): Exactly. How’s that different than fishing a grasshopper? Right. Tim (48m 49s): It’s not. No, it’s not. So I, which, you know, my favorite quote about fly fishing is like, the wonderful thing about fly fishing and tying is we each get to choose our own path. Mm. Yeah. Like that’s the beauty of this. And you know, and, and again, like when I had that angler that said, don’t use it, you know, it’s gonna ruin your technique versus the other angler that says, you know, use this, you can catch striped bass, you can catch Atlantic salmon, you can catch all these fish on, on squirmy whammies. You have to pick your own path and say to yourself, what are you trying to get out of this? Yeah. Dave (49m 17s): Perfect. No, and just to clarify the third pattern you’re going with here, is it the squirmy or is it the San Juan style? Tim (49m 24s): Gosh, let’s just say a worm style. We’ll just say a worm. Why Dave (49m 26s): Just go worm. That’ll make it better. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, Tim (49m 29s): We’ll say worms. Why? Dave (49m 30s): I like that we have a worm in here. This is so good. Love it. So let, let Tim (49m 33s): Dirty Dave. It is Dave (49m 34s): Getting bad. It’s good. So let’s go number four. What do you have here? You got two more left to throw to this list. What would you go through your fourth? Alright, Tim (49m 40s): Well we’ll start to kind of slide a little bit away from NIMS and junk flies. I had a section on streamers as well because, you know, at at one point during these interviews, the notion of high water events definitely came up and, you know, during high water events, a lot of the anglers would use either darker flies or larger flies. That seemed to be one of the, the main things. But another fly that people really gravitate to is one that, you know, I’m sure you and I both love the wooly bugger and there’s just something about a, you know, a pattern that you look at that just you say to yourself, you know, what does this represent? It could be, I dunno, caterpillar, A bait fish could be a, a ide stone fall. I mean, it could be so many different things and they catch fish. Tim (50m 21s): And you know, as I was working on this book, you know, there’s kind of this buzz going in the fly fishing world about jig streamers. So we have these streamers that are tied on jig hooks, and they’re kind of like the poor man’s wooly bugger. That’s what I’ll call them. So a jig bugger. And that’s, it’s, it’s as simple as it sounds. Imagine you have a, a jig hook around a, a three to a four millimeter slotted tungsten bead, you know, bu tail, some type of flashy body, like a chail body, and that’s it. No hackle, no, you know, CDC or saddle hackle or anything like that. Just a really, really simple tie. That would be the next fly that I share because, you know, whenever it got down to this, these anglers all really do fish streamers, but they pick their spots when they’re fishing them. Tim (51m 8s): And they also wanna have some streamers that, you know, they can tie in a really short amount of time. So this book does feature, I think, four streamers, but out of the four that jig bugger is just the simplest one to tie and it catches fish. I mean, if someone’s out there listening and saying, All right, what should I tie? What colors, what sizes? It’s like, go the size, you know, 10 or 12, do some, you know, all whites, all blacks, and you are good to go. Dave (51m 30s): Good to go. And how do you typically, is there just a ton of ways to fish that? Or what’s your most common way you’re fishing that jig? Bugger. Tim (51m 35s): Ooh, I’m so glad you asked that because, you know, with these streamers, I wanna see if I can turn to the section on that as I’m, I’m going, I’m not gonna read the section Sure. To to everybody out there. But what I realized about these fishing suggestions is that, you know, first of all, you have to figure out what type of water are you fishing in. And say to yourself, how heavy of a bead do I want? Because if are you gonna fish it, you know, dead drift, that would be like the main thing to start. Like maybe we’re just gonna drift this through a dead drift and just see what happens. And we have to make sure we don’t have too heavy of a bead. Because if you’re on really skinny water, you might be fishing something like a three or a three and a half millimeter versus if you get to really big water, you might bounce it up to like a five and a half millimeter tungsten bead to really get down to hurry. Tim (52m 16s): So we’re gonna say, All right, what kind of bead size are we gonna select? Once we get to that bead size, we gotta say to ourselves, All right, let’s kind of go through the motion of streamers. Like, let’s start with we’re just gonna do our dead drift. Then the next time through maybe we’re gonna jig it. And by jig it, I mean we’re just gonna raise our raw tip, you know, a couple centimeters as it’s going down every three feet or every two and a half feet, just to give it a little bit of jigging motion, maybe to have a fish chase and eat. Maybe we’re gonna strip it back once it swings around and see if we have a fish that chases there. There’s another technique that people were talking about. They would cast it out and as it would start to go down, they would just do a gentle retrieve across the currents. So they would do that as well. Tim (52m 56s): And I kind of looked at this as it seemed like every fishing technique that I mentioned was a little bit more intrusive than the previous one. So it’s kind of like you start, you say to yourself, which of these techniques is going to disturb the least amount of fish till the end where maybe you’re just ripping this fly across the current to really just draw a strike. Gotcha. Dave (53m 16s): Yeah, it makes sense. So it’s, yeah, it’s diverse and, and you could, you said it, so I love how you started that questions they asked. First of all, when you’re thinking about it, like how are you gonna fish? Is that how you go into all your flies when you’re creating something? Is you’re always thinking like, okay, how am I gonna fish this? Exactly. How’s it gonna, whether I’m gonna be deep water, fast water, you know, kind of wind all that stuff. How, how do you, do you, what do you factor in when you’re tying these flies? It sounds like you’re thinking of a lot of things. Tim (53m 39s): Yeah, I mean, for, for sure. And I guess that would be a major takeaway that I had for a lot of these anglers. And I think for a lot of fly tires who say to themselves, like, I’m, I’m trying to tie a fly to hit not just this one situation, but a number of situations. You know, a lot of these comp anglers, they’re very intentional and precise in what they do, and they’re very thoughtful and constantly questioning why, you know, why should I make the tail this size? And let’s talk about this fly specifically this jig bugger, a lot of anglers looked at this fly and, and a lot of them fished this fly though. This is not a fly that’s just like a, oh, here’s a fly that Tim’s throwing out there. Like, this is a fly that, that they’re fishing. But one of the struggles that I had was selecting the one that I thought would benefit the readers the most. Tim (54m 21s): And the issue that I had was with the length of the tail, because a lot of the anglers said to themselves like, alright, number one, you wanna find quality maroo, which it’s not as easy to find quality maroo today as it was 10 or 15 years ago. So, you know, I really reached, and I found a lot of different maroos, I bought a ton of different maroos. I think there was one that was called, like, it was a fulling mill, maybe extra select that was probably the best maroo that I could find that that really made a nice tail, that really had nice fluffy fibers the whole way out to the tips. Had a bunch of bar mules, like that was the best maroo that I, that I could find at least everyone had access to. You could talk to a few independent people, but that would be the one that, that, you know, people could buy. Tim (55m 1s): But then it was like, All right, I got this baraboo, it’s awesome. I’m gonna get a, a giant pump of it and really just push it all together. So, you know, I have a, a ton of maroo and therefore a ton of movement, but how long do I make the tail? Yeah. And you talked to some anglers and they wanted that tail as long as possible. They wanted it super long because the longer the tail, the more movement, the more fish were attracted. Dave (55m 22s): Oh, wow. You mean like how long, like twice the body length or how long? Tim (55m 25s): Oh, more than that. We’re talking like four times the length. Oh, wow. I mean, oh really crazy Dave. Yeah, like to the point where people are holding up flies as we’re having these interviews on their cameras. And I’m like, there’s no way I would fish that. They’re like, you have no idea Tim. Like, but that’s, they’re like, that’s how you get the movement. Like if you’re not fishing, something articulated, how else can you get movement in a fly like that again, like they’re saying to themselves, how can I do this? You know, why am I gonna catch more fish than you? And it’s because of that movement. But then I had a couple anglers as well who kind of argued back and they’re like, yeah, you get all this movement, but whenever the fish eat you get a lot of, you know, short strikes or they’re eating that tail and you’re not hooking them. And from a competitive angler perspective, you know, they have to hook that fish, they have to land that fish. Tim (56m 7s): And I believe the fly still has to be in their mouth whenever they come over to score it. So they had to get those fish in the net. Yeah. So just looking at just like one pattern, there was a lot of thought that goes into this just when you’re, you’re saying, All right, well we’re gonna tie in the tail of a wooly butter. ’cause you don’t have to tie this jig bugger, but just, just if you’re like, I’m gonna tie the tail on my woolly bugger, like, yeah, do you just follow a recipe that says tie it, you know, one times the shank, but then we’re using jig hooks and some of these are like extra short shanks. So if I say like three times the shank, that still may not be that long compared to a traditional woolly bugger. Like, there, there are so many factors at play with some of these patterns. Dave (56m 43s): Wow, this is cool. Yeah, I think this, the cool thing about this is that people, yeah, I can grab your book and they know that these patterns are, have already been vetted, you know? Yeah. But at the same time, we should all be thinking like, hey, okay, I got this pattern on, you know what, just because Pat Weiss tied this pattern, or whoever it was, doesn’t mean I can’t tweak it a little bit. Right. Along along the way is that, do you think that’s good advice that we can even make it customize it to our own, our own fit along the way? Tim (57m 5s): Oh, without a doubt. And I think what I did with the streamers, I actually have, you know, a couple of these streamers and like, that was the most basic one. And the next streamer kind of builds upon that flying. And it’s another pattern that you kind of add a couple more materials just to kind of do what you’re saying, like customize it, maybe add a little bit more movement in behind the bead. So I said to myself, you know, I wanna make this book and have patterns that are easy to tie, but also some intermediates that people may not know so much about yet. So I tried my best to kind of build those throughout. Gotcha. Dave (57m 33s): Okay. Well let’s, let’s, you want to add one more here before we get outta here? A fifth fly of the people gonna have their must have five in their box for everybody listening. Yes. Tim (57m 42s): All right, let’s do that. Let’s get to the fifth one. I’ll, I’ll kind of follow the order that I’m setting as precedent and, and I’ll go through my sections. Yeah. The last section’s on dry flies. And it, you know, first if you’re like, wait, this is a book on nims, like where do dry flies fit in so many of these anglers, so many of the, the, the top anglers we’re talking about people like Pete Erickson, Michael Bradley, I mean, I interviewed some individuals who are on the, the, the adult, like the ex what do, what do they call Dave (58m 5s): That? Yeah, I always get confused too, because it’s not like the golf, it’s the opposite of the golf. Yeah. Tim (58m 9s): It’s kinda like, it is kinda like the masters though. I think it might be the masters. Dave (58m 12s): I think it’s the ma I think the seniors or the younger, yeah, the masters or the older guys. Tim (58m 16s): Yeah. I think that’s how it goes. And I could probably look up in the bio section, ’cause I have a bio in all these, but you know, I, I interviewed like Pete Erickson, he, you know, he was a, a gold medalist for the United States and we’ll call it the masters competition. So, and, and especially Josh Miller, I’ll kind of lean on Josh for this one. A lot of these anglers are fishing dry droppers. And at first, you know, I kind of said to them, All right, tell me a little bit about this, because you know, most people, if you say, All right, I fish a dry dropper, it’s like, well, what does that mean? It’s like, well, I’m fishing the big chubby Chernobyl with the hairs ear underneath, and whenever that chubby goes down, I set the hook. And it’s like the precision involved in these dry droppers is just, you know, it just seems light years ahead of where my thinking would’ve been because we’re talking about fishing a size, I don’t know, 16 or size 14 dryly with maybe a, you know, a nymph that has a two millimeter tungsten bead and they’re fishing this on a liter, a micro thin liter, maybe the entire is five x, and it goes down to a tippet that could be six x or seven x. Tim (59m 14s): So just saying to yourself, how are they even throwing these things 30 feet, 40 feet, sometimes 50 feet, right? Like, there’s just a lot that goes into that. So they couldn’t pick dry flies that ha that were super bushy that are going to have a lot of air resistance. So that’s like, right now, you just gotta eliminate a lot of flies that you would think, oh, this is something that I would use as a dry fly to support my nymph. But you also wanna make sure you’re selecting a dry fly where you also have a chance to catch a fish if they’re eating on top. Like in some cases, some of the dry flies are just kind of sacrificial. They’re out there to maybe keep a nymph in a certain drift or in a certain run. Because if you’re trying to nymph and you have a straight line to that fly, there’s going to be some sagging your system and it’s gonna kind of pull your fly across those currents. Tim (59m 57s): So at times, you know, these anglers are selecting dry flies in a dry dropper, which means a dry fly may be coming off a dropper tag and then a nymph on the point. And they want that because then they know that dry fly will kind of help to keep that nymph in a certain line. But you know, at times, yeah, sure it’s a sacrificial dry fly, but at other times they’re like, All right, we’re fishing for maybe brown trout. We know brown trout love to eat dryly. So we also wanna make sure we’re throwing a dryly that has a chance of getting eaten that the fish are gonna say yes to. But then probably my, the biggest takeaway I have before I share a fly is that whenever you’re selecting that dry fly to pair with the nymph, you don’t just go with any dry fly, you go with one that’s just going to suspend the nm. Tim (1h 0m 37s): I mean, I’m talking about Dave like, yeah, imagine like somebody in like a soggy diaper floating down the river, where if you would just like touch their toe, they would go underwater. And that’s the dry fly you wanna select for this. Because the moment anything happens, it could be a fish that’s, you know, six inches long or 16 inches long, even if they just touch that little nph for just a 10th of a second. You want your dry fly to react. And this is the level these anglers were on. Geez. You know, I’m thinking to myself, All right, it’s a dry drop, but you’re looking for that dry fly to go down. It wasn’t always going down. Sometimes these anglers are talking about they saw their dry fly turn 90 degrees during the drift. Oh wow. They set the hook At one point somebody said like, they’re like, Tim, imagine like whenever you pull down on a, like a volleyball or a beach ball in the water, how like the water ripples away. Tim (1h 1m 21s): Oh yeah. And they’re like, sometimes my dry fly would be floating down and I would see like ripples moving away from it. And I set the hook and sure enough, there was a fish there, like the fly wouldn’t even show anything. They were just, they just saw ripples moving away from it. And that indicated an E. So, you know, we’re talking like, some of these guys are next level, but it’s not that they’re next level, it’s just, you know, they have the ability to think at that level. But remember, like, they’re also sharing these levels with us. So for all, all of you listeners out there, if they’re thinking, oh my gosh, this sounds so advanced. It’s not like, remember my background? I’m an elementary school teacher, I teach sixth graders and I wrote the book so you can read this. I’m not saying, you know, sixth graders going to understand everything I wrote, but like, I’m putting all these concepts and these ideas in this book for all of us. Tim (1h 2m 4s): Like, this is for us to get better as anglers. Not just to get a peek inside this world, but, you know, I wanna be in that world. I think many of us could be fishing at this style, at this pace, at this level. We just have to know what the level is. Like. I think for so many of us, it’s like We don’t even know what, what we don’t know. And now I think this gives us a peek inside that world. Dave (1h 2m 23s): Yeah, it does. It, it, it pulls back the curtain a little bit, right? From these Yeah. Top of the game people who have really, and they’re fished. I mean, especially these competition, I mean, they, these guys are fishing in all sorts of streams all around the world. So there’s a good argument to say, these guys are kind of the best, right? Because they’ve fished Oh, sure. In every, every stream. So it makes sense. But no, this is great. So we got, and, and so your dry fly, so let’s go back to that. And I love this soggy diaper, right? Basically what you’re saying is like that analogy, you don’t wanna have some fluffy giant dry fly that takes a ton of power to pull down. You wanna really, the the subtlest little thing, the smallest. And that’s why maybe a lot of these dry flies too, you see some of these things are kind of almost in the surface film, right? What, what would you call those dry flies that are more down in, almost in the surface? Tim (1h 3m 5s): Well, I mean, it depends on the style of the fly. I mean, you could make an argument that if it’s in the film, it could be more of an merger, which could be an insect that’s, you know, making its emergence from a nymph or from a larva into an, an adult. So it could be representative of that. In many cases, these flies, they just happen to be low riders. I mean, it’s, it’s nothing more than that. They’re just, it’s, it’s a fly that’s just kind of being pulled down into the film a little bit. So I wouldn’t overthink exactly where it’s sitting there. Okay. Then again, maybe you should, you know, Dave, you’re, you’re thinking on another level now. I love Dave (1h 3m 34s): That you can, yeah. I, I’ve taken off to the next level. So, and then what would do you have and then the fly there, what would be the dry Tim (1h 3m 39s): Fly? Yeah, let’s go with somebody. Let’s go with Lubo Rosa Lubo is one of three people i, i I feature from the Czech Republic. One of the individuals I interviewed is Franta Hanock, he’s the owner of Hanuk Competition. F is a good friend of mine, I think, you know, like I, you know, I fly fishing in Iceland quite frequently. Oh yeah. And I host trips there, and Franta came on my trip this summer to, to fish for Atlantic salmon and trophy brown trout. We had a great time. And you know, I interviewed Fran about his hooks because the Hornet competition hooks are, you know, they tend to be known as the kind of like the Ferraris of, of the Flyting world for hooks. So I, you know, I interviewed him, got his confidence flies for this. And one of the, the, the really, I don’t wanna say an up and comer fly tire, ’cause he’s an incredible tire. Tim (1h 4m 21s): His name’s John. I’m, I’m that butcher’s last name, but it’s like Vitm or Whitman with a W And you know, I have him, he did a little section on fly tying for me, shared his confidence flies, and, and, and sent in a bunch of images to use. He was wonderful. And then the third person from the check is somebody whose name is Lubo Rosa, and Lubo is a world champion. He’s won the, I believe the gold medal. Just a phenomenal angler. And he developed this fly, and I’m not, I don’t wanna say this is necessarily his, but it was kind of revealed to me in this book that Lubo wrote, and it’s called Fly Fishing World. And this is a book that, you know, it’s tough to get your hands on the United States. In fact, I wanna say Franta sent me a copy of it, and I’m going through this book, and I remember seeing this fly that just was like, I, I don’t know even how to describe it. Tim (1h 5m 5s): Imagine like a blob of CDC. That’s what it looked like. And it kind of drew my attention. But I kind of like, I looked at it, but I kind of forgot about it. One of those deals where I’m just, you know, just, it was in my brain, but I wasn’t quite sure about it yet. And it was in a section on lakes. So I said to myself, All right, you know, maybe this is like, you know, the blob or the fab or you know, the booby or one of those flies. So, you know, fast forward now into this book, and I’m interviewing some of these anglers and I’m interviewing people like that. Noah Shapiro from the youth team, Ollie Bassett from New Zealand. I get to people like, oh gosh, Pete Erickson. I get to somebody, another person whose name is David Sch Chomsky, and all of them start talking about this fly, this Work care cup pattern. Tim (1h 5m 46s): I’m like, alright. I heard it once and I wrote it down and, and somebody didn’t know the name, but I wrote kind of this description of it. And then, you know, I get to Pete and, and David, they’re like, oh, you know, Lubo Roses Kuka. And I’m like, what the heck is the Kuka? And then I kind of put all the pieces together. I’m like, oh, it’s this fly. I like run to my library. I find my book and I see the fly and I’m like, this is the fly. So I immediately, you know, contact Lubo. So I’m like, All right, tell me about this fly. I need to know about, about this. I think this is going to be the one. And imagine this fly’s tied with like red thread. You have a tail of a handful of crystal flash fibers sticking out. Something like a flashy tail. Some people use floss and they change the color, maybe orange or pink or purple tails. Tim (1h 6m 30s): And then you have nothing but c, d, C for the entire body. Oh wow. But it’s not just like you’re tying it in. You’re, you’re taking your CDC, you’re putting it into a c, DC block, then you’re eventually cutting the fibers away from their stems, and then you put the fibers into a dubbing loop and you spin it. So you’re kind of making a c, DC hackle without the stems, and you get as many of them as possible. I mean, you really wanna find super long c, d, c if you can. Some of these will take upwards of 12 to 15 CDC fibers to make one fly. So this is a fly, like if you, if you snag it in a tree, you wanna climb the tree to get this one down, you get it. And I mean, you get to the end and, and you have this fly and it just is like this blob of C, DC and the fibers are going all over the place. Tim (1h 7m 13s): And I’m saying to them, All right, so I got this fly tide, like how do I fish this? And it’s like, there are so many different ways. I mean, most of them said they wanted it really, really dry. So, you know, whenever I tie my dry flies, as soon as they come off of vice, I put them in some type of a pretreatment. The brand that I kind of prefer is called high and dry. They’re actually just are releasing this pretreatment right now for fly tires where you put the fly in it, you let it soak for, you know, X amount of hours. I tend to let mine overnight. You dab it away with a paper towel, then they float like a cork for a while. So you wanna keep this super dry, keep it dried off, put it in a desiccant while you’re fishing it, you obviously can fish it, you know, dead drift. You could fish it dry dropper, so you’re fishing a nim underneath it. Tim (1h 7m 55s): But other things that I noticed with this fly, like Lubo was telling me, like he would cast it and he would strip it almost like a streamer on the surface. And he would see fish that would chase it, and they get really mad at the fly. But he would know, like when they started chasing it and say, All right, now I know it started chasing it right there by that rock. That’s where there’s a fish. I’m gonna give that fish a minute and then just make a cast and let it dead drift over it and that fish is going eat. And sure enough, it would. So, you know, I found like there were, there were again, like different fishing techniques to entice fish to eat this fly. Dave (1h 8m 25s): Amazing. Yeah. Rose’s rocka. I love the name. The name is awesome too. Rocka, this is so good. Nice, Tim. Well I think we’ve nailed this one. I think five killer flies. I love the five flies we’ve chosen. And obviously these are just five flies that are amazing. But your book is gonna go into more detail. Anything else you wanna shed on light on before we get outta here? I know I, I wanna talk Iceland, maybe we’ll have to talk about that again on the next one. But anything for you coming up other than the show season? You wanna give a shout out before we get outta here? Tim (1h 8m 54s): Sure, sure. I mean, number one, yeah. For, for anyone listening, I hope, you know, I, I get to connect with many of you at the fishing shows. I mean, you know, again, I have a pretty tight schedule because my day job is as an elementary school teacher, so I don’t get too many days off from my principal or superintendent to travel around the country talking fly fishing. But you know, without a doubt, like that’s kind of number one is that that will be kind of my winner. And then I tend to take off the spring and I, I prefer to fish with my family as much as possible. This summer, I have a number of like super fun trips coming up. I’ll be going to Iceland. I’m hosting a couple trips to Iceland, looking forward to ’em. I think one is already sold out, one has some openings. I’ll be going back to Alaska. I’ve been adding Alaska into kind of my, my hosted trips just because Alaska’s so much fun. Tim (1h 9m 37s): Yeah. And then, you know, I’m kind of dabbling with a couple more locations. I was invited to another European country, so I might have a chance to fish out there and maybe go out west in the United States. You know, we tend to fish for striped bass in the summertime and also go to the outer bank. So it’s just, you know, we tend to build the summer just around like fishing destinations and different species and, and hosting some trips to get out with, you know, anglers as well. Dave (1h 9m 58s): That’s perfect. And what, on the Iceland trips, so you guys, did you have some Atlantic salmon action when you’re up there? Tim (1h 10m 3s): Oh my gosh, we can have a whole podcast on that. Yeah, I mean, Atlantic salmon is, you know, it’s, it’s something that’s newer for me. I remember, you know, growing up and seeing those beautiful salmon flies and I was like, that, that’s not for me. Like that’s, I don’t need to catch Atlantic salmon. There’s, it’s just a fish. Even though Lee Wolf considered them like, you know, one of the greatest game fish of all time, I’m like, eh, you know, whatever. And you know, so I, I heard that Iceland was kind of known for them and you know, just, you know, for your listeners, I’ve been fishing in Iceland for a number of years. I, I, you know, I tend to go there two or three times a season to fish. Love it. You know, I’ve been hosting trips there because, you know, if if somebody’s gonna fish in Wyoming, I don’t think they need to go to Wyoming with me. I think they could figure it out. Yeah. But when you’re going to a place like Iceland, you know, the water’s private. Tim (1h 10m 46s): So you, you know, if you get there and you’re trying to book the day you get there, you know, more than likely they might tell you the river’s really good, but it’s probably not like the good spots are already, they’ve been reserved for a year already. So, you know, I heard about this one river in northern Iceland, the rist, and you know, I kind of heard that it was a little less of a, you know, a nuisance for casting. So you could get away with fishing a single hand rod and eight weight. And, you know, I was like, All right, that’s cool. Like, I, I don’t wanna be bringing people that, that have to bring a spay rod for Atlantic salmon, but I was like, All right, so you don’t have to cast as far but keep going. And they’re like, well, the beauty is there’s a lot of Atlantic salmon and I was able to book the peak week. So whenever I say a lot, like, you know, you fish two sessions a day, so you would fish a morning session and an evening session, and the expectation is that you’re gonna hook a fish every session you go out. Tim (1h 11m 31s): So, you know, I split the trip into, you know, half of the trip is targeting Atlantic salmon, then the other half of the time we’re targeting trophy brown trout. So we tend to fish around six sessions for Atlantic salmon. And I think this year I landed six or seven Atlantic salmon. Wow. Like nearly one every session. And every angler that came on my trip this summer and summer 2024 landed multiple Atlantic salmon, which is like unheard of. Like, you know, for some destinations you go there, Dave, and you like fish the whole weekend you had a bump and you’re like, oh, that bump was incredible. Right? I can’t wait till I come back next year. And it’s like every time you go out, you get a bump in, in, in, you know, on this river in Iceland. So that’s amazing for any of the people out there that are either who are into Atlantic salmon fishing and you know, wanna have a little bit more experience with it, I would say check out Iceland, but also know, like you have these trophy brown trout in your back pocket. Tim (1h 12m 21s): Like the first time I fished this river up there, I, my first fish was a 20 inch brown trout. And I remember, like, I went to get my camera out and the guy is like, what are you doing Tim? I’m like, I’m taking a picture. And he like, laughs. He’s like, but this is a small one. He’s like, why do you want a picture? And, and I, I thought he was just joking around and nope, he wasn’t like, that was one of the smallest fish of the week on that river. So it’s just, it’s one of those places where you go and, you know, not every day is like, like that where you’re catching, you know, 24 inch brown trout, but you’re fishing a river where every day you have an opportunity to catch multiple, you know, you know, mid 20 brown trouts. Dave (1h 12m 55s): That’s so good. Nice. Well, we’ll, we’ll put some links in the show notes to your website and if people wanna follow up with you on Yeah, definitely that trip availability. It sounds like you do have some openings there. That’s awesome. And I’d love to follow up with you more on all this. But yeah, Tim, I appreciate you coming back on today and shed some light on your new book and giving some nuggets here on some flies. Really appreciate that And we’ll definitely look forward to keeping in touch with you as we go. Tim (1h 13m 17s): All right, well thanks David. As I love to say at the end of these podcasts with you, especially, you are doing a ton of work for the fly fishing community and, and I had, I don’t think anyone has any idea like what you’re doing behind the scenes. So thanks for all the time and you know, thanks for all this content you’re giving all of us. Dave (1h 13m 33s): All right, quick CTA for you, your call to action today is to check in with Tim and let him know you heard this podcast and you want to get that book. I’ve got it right here in my hand right now. As always, it’s a great book. It’s got some great photos, great history, always love the history, the tips and tricks. He’s got a little bit of it all going here and we’re gonna be doing some more stuff with Tim this year. So stay tuned and check in on that. If you haven’t already, check in with us on YouTube, wetly swing.com/youtube. We’re gonna be posting some more video content as we go. This might be some podcast episodes and it might be some shorter stuff, but it’ll be a good way to follow up. And we’re also gonna be posting some from Tim and our guests. Dave (1h 14m 13s): What we’re gonna be doing is following up here and we’re gonna be having some video content along with this podcast. So 2025. If it’s 2025, oh, I’m sure it’s either 2025 or later, you’re gonna be seeing more of that out there. So please follow that, click that subscribe button, that would be amazing. And before we get out here, just wanna give you a heads up Argentina, golden Rado, if you’re interested in going down there, we’re trying to figure out how many people wanna do this trip. And if you can send me an email, Dave, at we fly swing.com, I’ll let you know on availability and what we have going there. We’ve got a big trip planned, so let me know if you’re interested and we’ll go take it from there. All right, we’ve got a lot to do tonight. Tonight. It’s getting late. It’s not super late yet, but if it’s late in the night where you are, I’d love to hear from you. Dave (1h 14m 57s): If you are in the southeast, are you interested in streamers? We’ve got some stuff coming here. Let me know. We’ve got a new sneak peek on you, a new podcast series coming up here this year that you’re gonna hear about and it’s gonna be focused on streamers. And so if you’re interested in that, let me know. This is gonna be pretty huge for us. I’m excited to share later this year, but I’m giving you a little sneak peek just because you’ve lasted all the way to the very end of this episode. Sneak peek. We got it coming here. And I’d love to hear what you think would be your favorite streamer content to share on this episode, on this podcast, anytime. All right. I’m gonna leave it at that for the night. We’re almost outta time here, so I hope you have a great evening. Dave (1h 15m 37s): Hope you have a great morning or a fantastic afternoon wherever you are in the world. And I appreciate you for staying in all the way till the very end. We’ll talk to you soon.

Top 5 Euro Nymphing Flies Conclusion

If you enjoyed this episode, check in with Tim and let him know you’re interested in his book—it’s packed with great photos, history, and expert tips. We’ve got more coming with Tim this year, so stay tuned! Also, don’t forget to follow us on YouTube for more video content, including podcast episodes and exclusive clips from our guests.

716 | Protecting Alaska’s Salmon: Insights from Tim Bristol of SalmonState

By

Dave

-

February 7, 2025

In this episode, we’re joined by Tim Bristol, the Executive Director of SalmonState, to discuss the urgent challenges and exciting successes in protecting Alaska’s iconic salmon populations. With nearly three decades of experience in conservation, Tim offers valuable insights into the complexities of salmon recovery, from commercial fisheries to the influence of Indigenous communities. We dive into the surprising story behind Alaska’s sockeye returns, the role of climate change, and how local efforts are making a difference.

If you’re passionate about salmon and sustainable conservation, this episode is for you! Tune in to learn what you can do to help ensure a future for these incredible fish.

Show Notes with Tim Bristol on SalmonState. Hit play below! 👇🏻

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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Episode Chapters with Tim Bristol on SalmonState

3:49 – Tim, who has been involved in conservation for 30 years, shares his journey into working with SalmonState, an organization dedicated to preserving Alaska’s status as “the salmon state.”

6:11 – We discuss the significance of salmon in Alaska as an indicator of ecosystem health. Tim highlights the vastness of the region, spanning from Ketchikan to the North Slope, and the importance of the Tongass National Forest, the largest national forest in the U.S., as a key salmon habitat.

12:37 – Tim discusses the current state of Chinook salmon in Alaska. He contrasts their decline with the resurgence of sockeye salmon, noting that while sockeye populations have flourished, Chinook salmon are facing severe challenges. These include restrictions on fishing in areas like the Kenai River and the Yukon River, where harvests have been completely banned for years. Factors contributing to this decline include food scarcity due to shifting ocean conditions and predation by marine mammals, such as killer whales, which are consuming millions of Chinooks annually.

21:55 – Tim outlines several key projects and initiatives his team is focusing on for the upcoming year. These include engaging with the Trump administration to push Canada to address issues around transboundary rivers, advocating for responsible forest management that prioritizes salmon, and pushing for legislative protections to preserve water quality and safeguard salmon habitats. Additionally, reducing bycatch from industrial trawlers remains a major priority.

27:38 – Tim one emerging issue which is hatchery fish production, with concerns that hatchery fish may compete with wild salmon for resources, particularly food. There’s also the question of where these hatchery fish go after being released, as some may stray into wild systems, potentially disrupting those ecosystems.

29:25 – He highlights various ways listeners can get involved, such as following their organization’s updates on social media and signing up for the weekly news roundup. Tim emphasizes the importance of supporting sustainable fishing by purchasing wild Alaska sockeye salmon. He also encourages visiting Alaska to support local economies and to be mindful of where to spend money.

31:57 – Tim discusses several ongoing issues related to salmon conservation. One key topic is the West Susitna River, the fourth largest salmon producer in Alaska, which is threatened by a proposed industrial access road. This road would be used to access a gold mine, with public funds supporting the project. The region is known for its massive smelt (hooligan) run, which is important to the local ecosystem. The road construction has sparked controversy, with concerns from sport fishing guides, local residents, and conservation groups like the Wild Salmon Center, who worry about the impact on the area’s pristine fishing environment.

Tim also explains the role of the Alaska Industrial Development and Export Authority (AIDEA), a state agency that funds large projects, which is involved in financing this road.

36:17 – I mention Tim’s work on their website, an article entitled “My Turn”. This piece was written in reaction to accusations that their organization is comprised of outsiders aiming to disrupt Alaska’s development. Tim explains that half of their 13-member team, including himself, have deep roots in Alaska, with some being Alaska Native. They have backgrounds in commercial and sport fishing, illustrating their connection to the state.

37:22 – Tim mentions that their organization hosts weekly updates and a series called “Salmon Stories,” profiling individuals with strong ties to salmon. These profiles include sport fishing guides, commercial fishermen, and Alaska Native elders. Although they’ve considered starting a podcast, they currently focus on video interviews and transcriptions shared through their “Salmon Stories.”

39:59 – Tim highlights the robust conservation community in Alaska, particularly focusing on groups involved with salmon conservation and the intersection with fishing. Key organizations mentioned include the Susitna River Coalition and the Wild Salmon Center, which has a strong presence in Alaska under the leadership of Emily Anderson.

41:07 – Despite concerns about fish populations, Tim believes that wild-caught sockeye and coho are good choices for consumers, though he advises vigilance in ensuring that fish is responsibly sourced.

47:01 – Tim highlights how Alaska Native communities have long, uninterrupted histories in the region and emphasizes the importance of working with them.

Over the past few decades, Tim notes, tribal governments have reemerged as key players in conservation, especially in protecting and restoring salmon habitats. They are now at the center of conservation discussions, and Tim believes that their involvement has significantly improved conservation efforts. Indigenous communities also offer a different perspective on timeframes, focusing on long-term sustainability, which is crucial for successful conservation.

52:43 – We talk about the unique aspects of Juneau, Alaska. Tim describes it as a self-contained town with a population of 30,000, accessible only by plane or ferry. Despite its size, it has various amenities, including a hospital, symphony, ice rink, and ski area.

You can find SalmonState on Instagram @salmonstateak.

Facebook @SalmonStateAK

Visit their website at SalmonState.org.

Read the Full Podcast Transcript Below

Episode Transcript

Dave (2s): What current activity do you think is the biggest thing affecting salmon recovery in Alaska? Is it bycatch in the commercial fisheries, the mining companies cross border, international politics, or maybe even climate change? What if there is something you could do today to help move the needle for recovering and protecting Alaska’s salmon species? Stay tuned as we share a path forward with the salmon state. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, I’m Dave, host of the Wet Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. Dave (42s): I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and conservationists than just about anyone out there. Tim Bristol, executive director of the Salmon State, is going to share his insights into almost 30 years of trying to protect salmon in Alaska. You’re gonna find out how logging was replaced by more sustainable activities in his home area and how it’s possible that 72 million sockeye just returned to Alaska recently. But we’re still seeing big changes in Chinook runs and what the connection is to Idaho’s four lower Snake river dams. Plus we’re gonna find out how they work with indigenous people and how this is critical to sustaining these populations. Dave (1m 27s): Alaska may be my next home. Water. Here we go. Tim Bristol from salmonstate.org. How you doing, Tim? Tim (1m 36s): I’m doing well. Just staring out at the rain here in Southeast Alaska Day. Oh, awesome. Seems like 100 of it’s straight rain. Dave (1m 44s): Has it been, yeah, the cooling is is, you know, we’re in Oregon, so we’re south of you, but it has been, it feels like a very wet winter so far. Is that kinda how it’s been for you guys, or is that just normal? Does it rain every day? Tim (1m 55s): Well, it, you know, it does. But you hope by, by January it’s, you know, it’s more snow than rain. It’s been incredibly warm. Dave (2m 2s): Oh, it has. Like what, what’s the temperature? What’s your average temperature out there? Tim (2m 5s): I think today it’s like 42 degrees and you know, by this time of year we should be in the, the twenties and low thirties and we should have snow in the ground and the skiers should be happy. But everybody’s pretty, pretty miserable right now. Dave (2m 16s): See, you’re, you’re feeling that’s the ultimate, see, I live in the place where 42, 39 and rain is like the normal. Yep. You know what I mean? You guys are feeling what it feels like. I always feel like I’ve heard these stats. I’m not sure if they’re true that Alaska has like the highest suicide rate in Oregon and Washington. All of them are close behind because of the weather. But do you find that the weather, the 39 and raining is a lot worse than 20 in the snow? Tim (2m 40s): It is, but you know, I’ve, I live in southeast Alaska and you know, it’s a temperate rainforest and we kind of do always go up and down below that freezing point. So if you’re going to live here, you just have to embrace it and, and honestly, I think it’s never really bothered me very much. And I think some people think I’m really weird that it doesn’t, but I don’t know, living this close to the ocean and then having a forest directly adjacent to it and you know, you’re kind of amphibious and you either embrace that or, or leave You should probably leave. Or leave. Yeah, exactly. That’s Dave (3m 9s): Right. Good. Okay, well this is gonna be great. Today we are gonna talk about, you know, the salmon state and just kind of an update of what’s going on your organization. I know there’s some big talk, I mean, Bristol Bay always comes up, I hear these things where it’s, you know, it’s in the news and then it feels like it’s gone and then it comes back. So we’re gonna talk about some of these big issues. And obviously Chinook, you know, if we talk species is a big species that I think is a big, gets everybody worried because I think it’s, again, back to that story where you would think that Alaska was, you know, never gonna have issues. But now we’re seeing some with Chinook. So we’re gonna talk maybe that and some other topics. But first, before we get there, bring us back into your story. How did, how’d you get into this? How’d you come to be working for Salmon State and getting into the conservation stuff? Tim (3m 49s): Well, I’ve been doing conservation work for 30 years now in Alaska Salmon state. We’re 10 years old now. We’re a staff of 13 here in Alaska. And as the name lays out, we’re all about trying to re ensure that Alaska remains the, the salmon state, the, the home of the last great wild salmon runs. And yeah, I, I came over from the Alaska program of Trout Unlimited and had a 10 year stint there and it was great. And I just got to the point where I wanted to try something a little bit different, you know, maybe cast the net a little bit wider. Te was amazing. Chris Wood, you know, the big boss at TE gave us all kinds of freedom to try all kinds of things, but, you know, we wanted to probably do a little bit more work with commercial fishermen and with Alaska native communities and things like that. Tim (4m 36s): So, but we still work pretty closely with TU and a whole host of issues and, you know, it was all born a foundation that gave us money. Back in the day, the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, they had a wild salmon ecosystem initiative, and we did some polling and some focus group work to try to figure out what really engages and animates Alaskans and salmon was up there with education and employment, like the most important things to Alaskan salmon was right there. And, and ensuring that we had wild abundance salmon for, you know, generations to come was a, it’s, it just pulled so high. It resonated so well with people across the political and social spectrum that we decided you just put it in the name and lay it out there and saying like, this is a, you know, Alaska is a salmon state. Tim (5m 18s): And, and then our job is to sort of hold government industry accountable and say like, Hey, you’re not living up to those, those standards that are required to ensure we remain the salmon state. So that’s sort of our, our work, our mission. Right. Dave (5m 32s): Wow. Yeah, and I, I feel like, again, there’s, you know, I go back, I remember hearing somebody talk about, you know, the Pacific Northwest and like the old growth forest and talking about how like Oregon, Washington had these old growth forests and now they’re almost gone and, but the fact that Oregon is old growth forest, right? That’s what, without ’em is it the same state? And it feels like with salmon, that’s what you, that’s where you’re laying your stake, like without salmon. Alaska is not Alaska, right? That’s right. That’s kinda what you guys are saying. So how does that, you know, I mean there’s a lot of topics here. I guess maybe let’s start with high level, like right now, what are some of the big topics issues you guys are, are working on? Are there just a whole bunch or do you guys focus on a few? Tim (6m 11s): Well, the place is so big, and the other reason we picked salmon is it’s such a good indicator of ecosystem health, right? We have them from Kechika all the way to the North slope, and that’s a span of almost a thousand miles and totally different ecosystem types. So some of the big issues for us, so here in southeast Alaska, the Tonga National Forest is the biggest national forest in the country, and it is a old growth temperate rainforest. It’s this archipelago, a forest of violence, huge salmon producer, you know, there’s three big producers that flow from interior British Colombian out to the, out to the ocean at Ketchikan and Wrangle, and here in Juno, the Unix to Keenan to Taku. And we’ll maybe talk a little bit more about more about that in a second. Tim (6m 52s): And then you have the rest of the Tongass National Forest on these big and small islands, and we are on the cusp of a new forest planning process. I think this is really the first time that we can have a, have a plan that sort of dictates what you do in this huge 17 million acre forest that is not premised on large scale logging. Right? We had a lot of logging here in the fifties and sixties and seventies and eighties and even into the nineties. That’s no longer the case. The the economy and the, and the culture here have just totally shifted away from it. It’s, it’s sport and commercial fishing, recreation and tourism and government are really the big drivers of the economy here. And I think we’re at that, we’re at a point where some of that old lag of, you know, we need to get back to the good old days of, of timber production and, and all the jobs are provided. Tim (7m 41s): I think that’s, that’s finally sort of in the rear view mirror. And so it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out with the new administration. I think there’s gonna be some pushback of, you know, in trying to, trying to bring back some of the, the logging and road building. But I don’t think that the communities here in the region, you know, when they weigh in and, and talk to the, our congressional delegation, they’ll say like, Hey, we’re, we’re not interested in going back to that kind of approach that, you know, we’re just a different place now. So that’s, that’s pretty exciting. And we’re gonna be leaning in really hard on that there. The big rivers I just mentioned, the Euch and the Sta and the Taku there, the major salmon drivers of this region on our side of the border, in the us the mouths of these rivers are all in some kind of protected status, either wilderness, national monument or non-development land use designation as per the forest service over in British Columbia. Tim (8m 29s): It’s a totally different story. The mining industry in, in Canada has renamed this transboundary region as the golden triangle. There’s about a hundred mining proposals at some stage of exploration or development, including a couple that are already in operation. And one of ’em we’re concerned is already starting to leak from behind his tailings dam. Dave (8m 48s): Oh, wow. So this is in Canada. So you’ve got, what you’re saying is there’s a lot of exploration in Canada, but in, in the US there’s not as much in this area. Tim (8m 56s): Exactly. You know, my coworker Heather Hardcastle grew up fishing, commercial fishing on the TA River just south of here. She, she says that we’re sitting ducks and in Canada there’s ticking time bombs. And I think that’s a really, really accurate way of describing the situation. And what we’re trying to do is create some kind of international framework where we can discuss what is and what isn’t appropriate for Shared rivers. There’s a, there’s an agreement between the two countries, the Boundary Waters treaty that’s supposed to govern these things, and it’s never really been applied up here. So, and that’s, you know, this is a really bipartisan issue. Senator Dan Sullivan, Republican, Lisa Murkowski Republican, and, and we’ll see, we don’t know, are we just, we just elected a new representative. Tim (9m 36s): They’ve all weighed in saying like, Hey, you know, we need a seat at the table when it comes to how we’re gonna manage these rivers. The problem right now, there isn’t even a table. So that’s what we’re pushing for. So that’s a big, that’s a big issue for us. That’s, we use this, we have kind of a sub-brand, salmon and Beyond Borders. If you visit our website, you can also find salmon and beyond borders. And we have a whole essentially international effort dedicated to that, you know, Bristol Bay and the long saga struggle to prevent construction of the Pebble mine. That’s still something that’s very important to us. And we work very closely with a whole host of groups on that. And you know, that’s ebbed and flowed throughout the years. Right now we’re in a good place. The Environmental Protection Agency put some safeguards in place. Tim (10m 20s): There’s active litigation from the mining company and the state of Alaska that, that’s challenging that those decisions by EPA and you know, you never know what the courts are gonna decide. Yeah. Dave (10m 31s): Why does the state of Alaska, I would think that with the salmon, like you said, salmon state, I mean the, the bipartisan everybody knows without it you lose the salmon. I mean, that’s not gonna be good for Alaska. Why does the state of Alaska go against that, this situation? What’s the benefit of that for them? Tim (10m 47s): It was just this weird psychology up here, right? Where we had a governor back in the day, Wally Hickle, he essentially said to the United States, he said, let us make our own mistakes. Right? We, we, we oftentimes, you know, just don’t wanna, wanna listen to the lessons. Yeah. Dave (11m 1s): That’s why people live. Right. That’s the thing about Alaska is that people love Alaska because you are not having to, people aren’t telling you what to do. Right. That’s kind of part of that Alaska mentality. Tim (11m 10s): Exactly. And you know, the governor Mike Dunleavy is in place right now. He’s just, he’s just really pro development no matter what. And I think he kind of thinks this, I think he, he thinks of it in a more, more of an ideological than a, than a practical perspective. Right. He doesn’t like the federal government telling Alaska what to do. And so he kind of recoils against any action from the Environmental Protection Agency that flies in the face of the fact that the original petition to do this work was authored by a bunch of tribal governments from the region. About 85% of the people living in the Bristol Bay region are indigenous. And then they were joined by the commercial fishing fleet, you know, which is still a very important economic driver out there. Tim (11m 54s): And then, you know, all the sport fishermen and lodge owners and guides and, and then frankly, things that are kind of emerging, like bear viewing operations all weighed in. It was an amazing sort of across the board push for protection. And, you know, our governor’s definitely on the, in the minority, and I would submit on the wrong side of this one. So we’ll see how it plays out. I will say that at the federal level, we had, president Obama took the first steps. President Trump was the one who actually rejected the permit applications from the mining company via the Army Corps of Engineers. And then outgoing President Biden kind of sealed the deal. So, you know, we’re, we’re guardly optimistic that this is something that cuts across the kind of the traditional lines of battle. Tim (12m 36s): Right. So Dave (12m 37s): That’s great. That’s great to hear. So, I mean, it seems like with Alaska, like you said, it’s so big, there’s so much going on. It seems like, you know, always the question, especially people listening now, where do you start? How can we help? What can we do? Can you give us the chinook from your ex take? Like what is the current status? How are we looking? What’s going on? You know, what’s the future hold for Chinook? Tim (12m 58s): Yeah, I mean, you compare, you compare and contrast it, right? Bristol Bay a couple years ago had its biggest sockeye seminar on ever. It was 72 million Phish came back. Wow. It’s astounding, you know, that the experts think that, that maybe it was the biggest run ever. ’cause they can kind of go back into some of the, the sediment beds at the bottom of these lakes and sort of carbon date and kind of reconstruct runs. It’s fascinating. And they, they think that that run is maybe the biggest run ever. It clearly sockeye are a winner right now. And climate with climate change, Chinook on the other hand, are in really, really big trouble throughout the range in Alaska. You know, we, we don’t have any sport fishing on the, on the Kenai River. The, you know, the location of the largest sport caught king salmon ever. Tim (13m 39s): And we were totally shut down from king salmon fishing here in Southeast, almost the entire southeast Alaska, almost the entire year. They’ve closed the Yukon River to all harvest, including for, you know, custom air and traditional use by native people for seven years. So the entire life cycle of a Chinook, it’s really dire. And there’s a lot of different factors at play. At least that’s what researchers think. Everything from, there’s a, when out migrating Chinooks, mts get to the ocean, the food that they need to have almost immediately is not there. Maybe that’s due to some, you know, shifting things with climate and water temperature and that kind of stuff. Tim (14m 22s): There’s, you know, the thing that a lot of people don’t often talk about, but is clearly a big factor is predation by marine mammals. University of Washington thinks that killer whales are eating up to 2 million mature Chinook each year, sort of Pacific rim wide. So, which is incredible, you know, and if I, if I was a killer whale, if I was an orca, that’s what I would eat Dave (14m 44s): Up. I’d take the big Yeah, the biggest, that’s the thing about the Chinook, they’re, they’re the biggest salmon out there, right? Yeah. So they’re, they’re the best food that if you’re gonna pick a salmon, you might as well take a chinook. Yeah. Tim (14m 53s): And then, you know, so, so, you know, there’s just a, it’s really complex. I will say that the thing that we focused on, because we feel like we have some control over it over in the short midterm, is to try to try to reduce the amount of interceptive Chinook, particularly heading back to Western Alaska rivers by industrial scale fishing boats trawlers, most of which are based outta Seattle. And they, they haul these big nets behind, behind their boats, some 300 feet long, and they essentially catch everything in Wow. The ocean. And they’re targeting pollock, which goes into file fish sandwiches and simi fake crab and everything else is essentially thrown overboard. Dave (15m 36s): No kidding. Yeah. Tim (15m 38s): So far this year, it’s been about 32,000 Chinook that have been observed, recorded what they call bycatch in these straw fisheries. And it’s become really controversial up here. It’s, it’s, again, it’s one of those issues that sort of cuts across sort of the old lines of demarcation. And you see Alaska native people and resident sport anglers and guide services and commercial fishermen groups that don’t really agree on much of anything else saying that we need to, we need to reign this in. So that’s been kind of a, one of the other big issues that we’ve been working on. And do we think that that is like the thing that’s going to solve, or the Chinook situation? No, but it, it is one that we have some control on over, you know, Dave (16m 21s): Fish hound expeditions offers world class fly fishing right off Alaska’s incredible road system from monster rainbow trout to feisty arctic grayling. You’ll chase big species in the stunning landscape. Whether you’re a seasoned angler or just starting out their expert guides. Ensure an unforgettable adventure. Book your trip today before spots fill up and experience Alaska’s diversity like never before. Check ’em out right now. That’s fish hound expeditions.com. What are the numbers of Chinook historically? I mean, do we have an idea of, or even say 30 years ago what the numbers were like? ’cause this has been a, the decline has been, this didn’t just happen last year, right? No, this has been slowly happening. Dave (17m 2s): Yeah. Tim (17m 3s): On rivers like the Kenai, I don’t have ’em off the top of my head, but you know, they have counted fish on the, on the Kenai for a long time. And, and you know, we’re, we’re way below what they, you know, they, they term as the, the optimal escapement goal. And some of the rivers here, like the Taku, which is a pretty significant Chinook producer, you know, some of the, we’ve had some of the worst years ever on the Taku, you know, like just a few thousand fish. And I think like the escaping goal for the Taku is 26 to 30,000 or something like that. Even the Noga River out Bristol Bay, which has, you know, been one that sort of, kind of stood out for quite a few years is, is starting to suffer some significant declines. I don’t think they’ve met their escaping goals on the UTI Act for the last few years. Tim (17m 46s): So yeah. We’re at, we’re at a historically low level of returning Chinook Dave (17m 51s): For Chinook and then everything else. Do you have a, a feel for, you know, the, all the other species? How do you do that? Right? How do you know how all these other species and all these other areas with these tens of hundreds of millions of acres? Tim (18m 3s): Yeah, you know, I, I will say that the Alaska Department of Fish and Game spends an enormous amount of time and money and throws a lot of personnel in trying to actually count fish on a lot of systems, right? And so they have escapement goals for a lot of the big producers. Like I, like I said, sockeyes seem to be doing really well. Bristol Bay, we’ve had tremendous runs that same river just south of where I’m, you know, talking to you today from Taku had a, had their best sockeye run in over a decade, Chinook or a, a coho or all over the place. You know, I, that’s one place. If I was, if I had my, if I had my way and had lots of money, I would ask, or I would require the Alaska Department of Fish and game to, you know, start really doing a better job of, of managing coho. Tim (18m 46s): You know, we just, just assume they’re there. And we don’t really have escapement goals for coho. I’ve heard, I’ve heard that South Central had, has had some terrible coho years the last few years. So, and around Anchorage and the Kenai Peninsula region, this is sit in the river drainages here in Southeast. It went from good on the north end of this, you know, ’cause the, this region alone, the Tongas is about 250, 275 miles long. So on the north end it was pretty good. And on the south end, I guess it was, there was pretty spectacular coho fishing. So there, that’s all over the map. I think one of the things that really helps the southeast region is a fact. They think there’s probably over 10,000 co-host systems in the Tongass National Forest. Some ’em are really small. Tim (19m 26s): But that diversity of the portfolio I think really helps. And then, you know, chums, yeah, chum salmon pretty okay down here. Western Alaska, it’s again, you know, disaster are close to at levels. And you know, back to the TRA fishery last year, the trawlers by caught about 500,000 Chinook. Oh wow. During their operations, during their operations. A lot of those were hatchery fish from the, from Japan and the, and Russia and Korea. But about 70,000 of those chums were bound for Western rivers. And you know, you’ll hear the tra industry will say, well, that’s just a small percentage. Tim (20m 6s): And, you know, people live in these communities that have caught chum for thousands of years will say, well, 70,000 is a lot more than zero. So it’s a mixed bag. There’s a lot to be concerned about. There’s a lot to keep us busy. Dave (20m 28s): Yeah. Are you the steelhead, you’re the salmon state, but are you the also the steelhead state? Or is that one that doesn’t that, you know, you don’t have enough time? No, def Tim (20m 33s): Definitely, you know, but that’s, you know, that’s a whole as you as you know, I mean yeah. The steelheaders are a whole other species and we, and you know, we, we work with so many different sectors. I mean, I I lived in Homer, Alaska for 10 years and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the Anchor River, which is just, just north of Homer. It’s a great little steelhead system. It’s one of the more northerly steelhead systems. And, and that one sort of, that one seems to be doing okay, although it’s a non glaciated system. So there’s concerns about warming waters. And then here in Southeast, you know, travel Unlimited has a, has a pretty cool program where they’re trying to identify systems that they believe have steelhead in them that are not in what we call the end analogous waters catalog. Tim (21m 17s): And they’re, they’re finding new systems that have never been identified officially as having steelhead in them. And they’ve got a guy here in here in Juno’s got the dream job of wandering around streams in the spring looking for steelhead. Oh Dave (21m 29s): Wow. There go it’s Tim (21m 30s): Hard work person. Someone’s gotta do it. And then, you know, some of the big systems, the taku and that there’s definitely a, a, a significant steelhead run. It’s kind of mysterious though that I don’t think anybody really knows how many are there. So, but it, you know, especially Southeast Alaska is definitely steelhead country and there’s quite a few opportunities. Most of the runs are pretty small. They’re not, they’re not long river systems. Right. ’cause they’re island based river systems. Dave (21m 55s): That’s right. Yeah. We’ve done, we’ve done some episodes recently on that, so this is good. Okay. And so what is it, you know, just looking again, maybe take us back to the salmon state. What, what is, you know, as you look out, it’s, it’s a good time right? Early January, February. What are some projects you’re looking out that you guys are gonna be really digging into this year? Next year? Tim (22m 14s): I think it’s approaching the, the Trump administration about, you know, really kind of pushing Canada to come to the negotiating table on those trans boundary rivers that we talked about. You know, it’s, it’s trying to put some sideboards or, you know, pour some concrete or in around this draft forest plan that’s, you know, we wanna forest plan the space mostly on salmon, right? Like, you know, it just, look, If you take care of salmon, you take care of so many things. And that’s sort of our, our platform, our position moving forward with when it comes to management of this, this big national forest. It’ll probably be a little bit of logging, but it’s gotta be done smart. It’s gotta be done the right way. And, and you know, the wood, that cut does come from the forest, hopefully will go to support local businesses, not get exported in around to Asia, which has been the, a lot of times what’s happened in the past. Tim (22m 60s): We have a state legislative session that’s gonna be starting here soon. And we’re always trying to push some proactive legislation dealing with protecting water quality and making sure that some really important salmon systems have, have proper zoning and setbacks when it comes to development. So it’s just a, it’s just a whole host of issues, you know? And it’s all playing out in a place that has 3 million lakes more coastline, the rest of the United States. You know, just, it’s just an, it’s an enormous landscape. And then I think probably other big one for us is just try to see if we can slow down the rate of bycatch associated with those trawlers I was talking about. Yeah. Dave (23m 37s): The trawlers. Yeah. The bycatch is a, is a big thing. How do you, I guess that kind of goes back to the partnerships, collaborations maybe. How do you, you, what’s your plan to get there? Maybe you guys could, you could talk about a little bit about maybe some collaboration, some successes you’ve had over the years. Tim (23m 51s): Yeah, I think really trying to use the model that kind of evolved, I’d say pretty much organically out in Bristol Bay, right? Mm. So, right. You, you have the largest sockeye salmon producing system in the world. Also some of the, you know, best rainbow fishing on the planet. And all of a sudden it was like late, the early two thousands, there was this rumor happening that they’d found one of the world’s largest golden copper deposits. And I think people in the region at first were like, well, this might be a way to diversify the economy. And then a few of us started to kind of dig into it a little bit and then reached out to some mining engineers and others that had experience and knowledge. And they were like, oh my god. You know, you look at the, the size of the proposed excavation, the amount of standing and flowing water. Tim (24m 34s): And they were, you know, we were told pretty quickly by some people in the mining industry that you have to stop this, this is gonna be a catastrophe. And then, you know, over time at this weird, interesting alliance evolved of, I was working for Trout Unlimited and started talking to a lot of the lodge owners in the region and, you know, their whole business model. It’s interesting ’cause a lot of those lodges, you know, salmon is part of it, but it’s really about trout. It’s really about rainbow trout fishing. Oh, it’s, you know, that’s, that’s sort of how they make their money. So they were on board and then the commercial fishing industry and, and out in Bristol Bay you still have, you know, several thousand boats, 32 foot gitters that are working for about six weeks to harvest. Tim (25m 16s): And sometimes they take up to half of that sockeye run. And that’s, that’s proven to be about what you can do and be sustainable. And that’s, you know, that’s almost a billion dollar a year industry. And then, like I mentioned at the outset, you have 32 Alaska native communities in a region about the size of Wisconsin. And they have been there, you know, literally, well almost forever 10,000 years or so. And, you know, they make up the most of the population. And through a lot of hard work and a little bit of luck, a really interesting powerful coalition came forward and, and we all kind of pushed for the same thing. And I think that’s sort of the model we try to use when it comes to, you know, preventing something really, I would submit dumb from occurring or, you know, hopefully, you know, pushing for something progressive, visionary protective through the legislative process. Tim (26m 9s): None of it’s easy. But that, you know, that seems to be the recipe that works better than anything else is try to figure out what you all agree on and spend all your time in that area of agreement and, you know. Dave (26m 20s): Right, right, right. And, and for Bristol Bay, it seems like, I guess it’s a little clearer, right? On Bristol Bay, you have this pebble mine, right? And it’s like, okay, we gotta stop that. But I guess the other issue, like you said, are not quite as, as clean, whether that’s trans, you know, international stuff or the schnuck, which really, it sounds like we don’t really know exactly. We know there’s a lot of things going, but we don’t, we can’t just say, okay, if we do that, that’ll fix things. Right? Tim (26m 45s): Yeah, no, it’s, it’s really difficult with Chinook, you know, I just, that’s when it’s just, you gotta do everything you possibly can to apply a precautionary principle or a, you know, a conservation first approach and you know, all these things, right? It’s like all the things in society, when you take things away from people, it’s, the reaction isn’t always good. And, you know, people here have been used to being able to essentially do what they want and always had healthy harvestable levels of salmon, including Chinook. And it’s been a real, it’s a real wake up call and you know, the reactions kind of run the spectrum from, to resign to sad, to angry, to whatever. Dave (27m 24s): Yeah. Everything. Yeah. No, totally. Well this is, I mean, any other, you know, as you look here, what are, you know, other big topics that we’re, we’re missing here you wanna highlight? I know you have a lot going on, but just to give people a little taste of some of the other issues around, Tim (27m 38s): Well, you know, there’s an emerging discussion about hatchery production. Mm. And what that means. And, and it’s not one that we’ve necessarily dove head first into yet, but, you know, there’s a lot more, there’s a lot more talk about some of the research showing that hatchery fish may be competing with wild fish when it comes to food, especially pink salmon production. There’s the know the issue of string. Where do these hatchery fish go? I think there’s always been sort of this faith that fish come out of a hatchery, they imprint on the water where they were, you know, in their net pen for a while before they were released. And that’s where they could go back to. But I think we all know that salmon survival strategy is to stray. And I think we need to start spending a little more time focused on where are these hatchery fish going? Tim (28m 21s): Are they indeed going back to where they were released or are they fanning out into other wild systems? And what are the impacts on those wild systems? Then there’s, there’s a pretty robust restoration effort, you know, here in southeast Alaska there was quite a bit of road building and logging that happened in the past, and there’s a pretty strong program going on for via a lot of different nonprofits and tribes and then the forest service to, to fix up some of the things that, that were, were messed up. And that’s really kind of gained a lot of momentum. And I, I think one of the things that’s really good is in these rural communities where you have, you know, folks that used to be in the, in the timber industry, heavy equipment operators, people are really skilled with, with tradespeople and really skilled with their hands or finding out that this is, this is some pretty rewarding work. Tim (29m 8s): And you know, I think our responsibility is to make sure they’re well compensated and, you know, they have multi-year of, of employment doing this restoration work. And, and I think that’s starting to come to, that’s starting to really happen is really coming to fruition. So that’s, that’s been a really positive development as well. Yeah. Dave (29m 25s): Wow. And what is, you know, for people listening now, what are the, the takeaways that they can do? What would you say somebody wants to have an impact help out? What do you tell people? Tim (29m 34s): Well, I mean, you know, we’re, we’re constantly putting stuff out through all our social media channels where, you know, people, you know, are encouraged to take action. We put out a little kind of news and issue roundup every Friday. Our communications director, she’s just awesome. She works really hard and, you know, we, we try not to just talk about ourselves. We try to like highlight issues that we think are important to anyone who cares about salmon and the people depend upon them. So, you know, you can sign up for that. That’s a pretty good resource. Some of the other, other groups that we work really closely with, like Trout, unlimit and I mentioned it, I imagine a lot of your listeners are really familiar with Trout. They do a bunch of really cool work up here. So I, I think just, you know, checking out our, our social media channels and going to the website every once in a while and seeing what piques your interest. Tim (30m 18s): And we definitely have a lot of requests out there for people to take action. And then, you know, and I I think consider coming to visit Alaska and do your research and figure out, you know, where you wanna spend your hard-earned money. I mean, it’s, it’s, it can be daunting If you haven’t been up here before I figure out what you want to do. I, I mean, if I had my way I’d, I’d spend all of every fall, all every, yeah. Every September would be in Bristol Bay, you know, Dave (30m 41s): In Bristol Bay. Yeah, Tim (30m 42s): Yeah, yeah. It’s just unbelievable. And then, you know, I, I think if you’re, and also when you’re shopping, If you see wild Alaska sockeye salmon for sale, you know, really considered buying it, it’s sustainable. You know, it, it puts money in the pocket of small boat family fishermen who in a lot of cases have really kind of stood up and, and took action to protect the resource. And you know, I think that in my experience, having done this for quite a long time, If you don’t have, you know, people in these communities, especially when you’re pretty remote, and if they don’t have a way to, you know, make a living, they can be pushed to make some decisions that I, I’ll just call ’em hasty decisions. Maybe not even like, you know, the decision they, they wanna make, but they’re, they’re forced to, right? Tim (31m 26s): I, there’s a proposal for a mine on the Chill Cat River, which is another major salmon producer in Hanes, Alaska at the northern end of the, of the inside passage. And you know, the, the price for salmon and the abundance of salmon has been down and a lot of commercial fishermen up there, gi netters are, you know, saying like, I might just just anchor the boat and go work at this proposed mine. And Oh wow. I don’t think a lot of ’em really are excited about it due to the potential for, you know, damage to the cho Cat river. But you know, we need to make sure that people have those choices. Dave (31m 57s): Yeah. Right, right, right. Well, and I’m looking at a couple of issues here on this is the take action on your website, salmon state.org. And you’ve got, you know, basically there’s six kinda stop wasteful bycatch, defend the West Sioux Defend Trans Boundary Rivers. We talked about support southeast communities, tourism reform, A-I-D-E-A fisheries meetings. So, but maybe let’s walk through those. Have we talked about all those w we talked about by catch? What about the Sioux? Now that’s the si sita Yeah, so the Tim (32m 24s): West is Sita. So the si Sita River is the fourth largest salmon producer in the state and it kind of drains the Alaska range. So Denali Yeah. As everybody and Denali National Park. And there’s a proposal to build an industrial access road through sort of the western part of this drainage. It’s totally wild now. And really productive salmon producer. You know, the thing that’s interesting about Theit is some people think it may be the most productive Enus river in the world If you include the smelt or the hooligan run. They have a huge amount of, you know, hooligan that come up there in the spring and just massive. So it’s always fun, kind of fun to throw it out there. ’cause you know, we, we talk about salmon and trout, but like there’s all these other species Dave (33m 5s): And what are, what are hooligan, what’s that species? Tim (33m 7s): Hooligan’s. A smelt sometimes also called candlefish, you know, ’cause they Oh, candlefish Dave (33m 11s): Yeah. Tim (33m 12s): Run. Yeah. I can run it down the oil and it’s, you know. Yep. So Dave (33m 14s): These are smelt. So you have a giant spelt run. Tim (33m 16s): Yep. Enormous. And this, this industrial access road will probably end up being private. It’s being paid for with public money. And it’s being used to access a gold mine that was prospected by a Canadian company. And then a lot of the, the additional funding is coming through this entity called the Alaska Industrial Export Development Authority, which it, it takes public Alaskan money and, and invests in projects. A lot of ’em are speculative. I have derisively referred to Ada as the Bank of Broken Dreams, or the Bank of Last Resort. If you can’t get your funding anywhere else, you go to these, you know, folks that are appointed by the governor and they sit on about a billion dollars of Alaskans money and when they kind of invest in these mega projects. Dave (33m 58s): Gotcha. And what, what’s ADA stand for? What’s that? Tim (34m 1s): The Alaska Industrial Development and Export Authority. Dave (34m 4s): Gotcha. And that’s a government agency. It’s Tim (34m 7s): A state agency that was created by the state legislature and over the years has really kind of become Dave (34m 13s): Private Tim (34m 13s): Grown and changed. Yeah. And yeah, so that’s become a real, real controversial issue there in South Central Alaska. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of sport fishing guides are, are really concerned, you know, ’cause that’s some of the, the best wildest salmon and trout fishing within a, a, you know, close reach of Anchorage, but, but not drivable. So it’s a, it’s still a pretty remote incredible experience and, you know, I think a lot of us are asking, it’s like, you know, who’s gonna benefit and who’s gonna lose and you know, who’s paying for it. So Yeah. And that’s, that’s become a, that’s another one of those issues. There’s a really interesting cross section of Alaskans working on it. There’s a little local group called the Cent Rivers Coalition. There’s Wild Salmon Center. Tim (34m 54s): Oh, okay. Yeah. Wild Salmon Center out of Portland. You know, they have an office up here and they’ve been heavily involved in that. They’ve actually been one of the real leaders on that. Just done tremendous work. A lot of sport fishing guides, like I mentioned. And then just, you know, kind of local residents that live off the grid out there that are just don’t want to see their, their way of life change. So yeah, that’s, that’s another big one. And yeah. Dave (35m 14s): Wow. Okay. So you got, yeah, that, and then I think we talked transboundary and then fisheries. And then what about the community’s recreation tourism? Now that’s just basically what you said, come up there and experience Alaska and like support Alaska. That’s what you’re saying. Tim (35m 26s): Yeah. And you know, I think we, we love it when people maybe spend a little bit more money and a little more time and get a little bit off the, the beaten track. You know, maybe don’t do the cruise ship thing. Nothing against cruise ships. Well, I don’t know when you Yeah, we had 1.6 million visitors in Juneau last year, maybe got a little more. Oh, right. Dave (35m 45s): Yeah. People are getting off. They, they got off their boat for a little bit. Right, yeah. Hang out. Tim (35m 48s): Yeah. You know, although there’s, there’s a pretty cool excursion you can do here in Juneau where you, you go fly fishing for four or five hours and get on a plane and, and you know, that gives folks a nice taste. But yeah, obviously, you know, come up and experience Alaska and leave a few dollars here and, and support local businesses. ’cause you know, I think that’s just a really important part of ensuring that Alaska remains a salmon state, is have people who are caring, committed stakeholders who can afford to live in these places and, you know, raise your families here. Exactly. Dave (36m 17s): I’m, I’m looking at now I’m on kinda the media part of the website and it’s got my turn by Tim Bristol. Is that a, like a blog you’re writing Tim (36m 25s): That was in response to someone who, you know, tried to accuse us of being a bunch of shadowy outsiders that are trying to ruin Alaska and, you know, that that just comes with the territory sometimes. Yeah. Especially in a state that’s, you know, fairly pro-development. I, I took real on bridge to that since literally half of our employee, there’s 13 of us and half half of us were born here. Oh, wow. I was not, but you know, including two Alaska native women who, who literally can trace their history back like millennia. And we have a few former commercial fishermen on staff and a former sport fishing guide. So, and I’ve been here 33 years now, so we have deep roots and they’re, they’re getting deeper every day. And so we just decided to push back. Tim (37m 6s): And you, that’s just the latest, you know, on the push and pull of all of it. Dave (37m 10s): Yeah. Yeah. That’s just part of it. Do you guys do regular, like board meetings? Are there places, could somebody follow, you know, what you, you have coming up this year? You mentioned like getting on the email list, it sounds like that’s one good place to do it. Yeah, Tim (37m 22s): You know, we try to do this weekly roundup and kind of let you know what’s going on. And we, we have kind of, we’ve tried to host a series of what we call salmon stories. So just do profiles of people that we think are interesting that, you know, have some kind of strong connection to salmon. And you know, we’ve had ev everything from sport fishing guides to commercial fishermen to Alaska native elders to Dave (37m 44s): Oh, cool. So this is kinda like a, like a podcast essentially. A little video. Tim (37m 47s): Yeah, yeah. We’re just, we’re, you know, we’ve kicked around the idea of a podcast and we realized how much work it is Yeah. How much time it takes. So we haven’t gone, Dave (37m 55s): You should still do it. It’s worth it. Yeah. Tim (37m 56s): Yeah. So we’ve been, you know, we’ve been just sort of like going out and interviewing people and, and videoing them and then, and then transcribing their, their words and, and voices and getting that out there through our salmon stories and that’s been really cool. Dave (38m 8s): Oh, cool, cool. Yeah. Is that on? So you can see these on, on YouTube or where can you watch the stories? Yeah, Tim (38m 12s): I, I think, I think If you go there on the website it’ll say like, salmon stories and it, and it can direct you to places where, where you can find Dave (38m 18s): Love it. Love it. We’ll put a link out to that too so we can take a look. Some of these Yeah, I see ’em now you’ve got Yep. Trollers, you got kind of all the issues. Right on. Yeah, this is good. So what, what about you? What’s your, are you a are you a big angler or what, what are you doing out there? You know, Tim (38m 31s): I, I’m a passionate angler. I would not say I’m a, a great angler. I mean that was was, that was when I worked at Tu man, it was like Dave (38m 38s): You had to be an angler. Yeah. Tim (38m 40s): I mean I was, but like holy cow. I mean, there’s so many people that are so good. Dave (38m 44s): Yeah. Are you, are you, is this, is this like fly conventional everything? Yeah. Tim (38m 47s): Yeah. I’m, I, I definitely would prefer to fly fish. You know, we had a, it was great, like this fall we had a really good runup coho here, right. In gas, no channel in front of Juno. And, you know, it was, I, I really focused on, on fly fishing for coho and I was just as productive as the guys ripping their hooks through the water. And it was, it felt really good. And yeah, it’s, I, I haven’t been out in, haven’t been out in Bristol Bay the last couple of years and it’s just, it’s just killing me. You know, like just being out there and trying to fish for rainbows in the fall is just, I, it’s just amazing. Yeah. Dave (39m 17s): That’s when the rainbows are getting, getting big after they’ve been eating a lot and all that stuff. Tim (39m 20s): Yeah. You know, and these big sockeye salmon runs years. I mean it’s been the number of big rainbows they’ve been catching is just, it’s just incredible. Oh Dave (39m 30s): Right, right. Because the more, the more salmon, the more food there is for the rainbows. Is that kinda how it works? Tim (39m 35s): Yeah, you know, I guess, I guess my, I mean, you know, I can, I can throw a fly, but I learned to fly fish up here so I’m, you know, matching the hatch is like whatever phase of the Yeah. With Dave (39m 44s): Food, eggs or flesh. So Tim (39m 46s): It’s like bigger stuff. It’s, you know, Ming with beads and then throwing big heavy stuff in the fall and Yeah. And then, you know, going to like a, a stream in Colorado and I still have a lot to learn. Dave (39m 59s): Exactly right. What about the groups up there? You mentioned a few of ’em, obviously Tes up there, you got the Wests SITA coalition. Are there, are there a lot of other groups smaller up there or is that kind of the bulk of the, the groups? Tim (40m 10s): There’s a pretty, pretty robust conservation community. I think when you think about groups that focus on salmon and, and sort of the intersection between conservation and, and fishing tro in Theos Alaska program, salmon State that defend the West Sioux Coalition was made up of a lot of folks that are, you know, are really deeply committed and embedded in that region. And then the Wild Salmon Center, you know, all the great work they do there in the Pacific Northwest, they have a really super solid operation here in Alaska, run by a woman named Emily Anderson. And, and they’ve, they’ve really established themselves as a really important force here in Alaska. And then, you know, I I think those are some of the, yeah, some of the groups. Tim (40m 51s): And then there’s some that, you know, kind of are more in the commercial fishing space and the marine space, the Alaska Marine Conservation Council and things like that. But yeah, that sort of intersection between like terrestrial and ocean and salmon and, and recreational angling I’d, I’d say that’s kind of the, the main groups. Dave (41m 7s): That’s it. What is the, you mentioned this earlier on the, the wild. So eating or buying, supporting wild sounds, that’s kind of interesting ’cause it’s a little bit on the surface, a little mis a little bit, you think like, oh, why would I wanna kill wild fish? Right. Yeah. But that’s not that you’re, the fact is you’re saying maybe describe that a little bit. Why is it more important to, to eat wild Alaskan sockeye than other fish in the market? Tim (41m 28s): Well, you know, I think I would submit they’re still really well managed and I think the, the abundance of those runs sort of illustrates that, you know, we’re at, you know, close to peak sockeye production, at least in Bristol Bay and a few other places. You know, you end up supporting small community family businesses. And I think I just, you know, the longer I do this work, if, if there isn’t a way for people to make a sustainable living in these places, they’re, they’re driven to some tough choices. And then, you know, I think it, it does take some vigilance and some, some research to make sure that you’re not being sold a false bill of goods. You know, I, you know, but I can say with, with great certainty that I’ll ask him commercially harvested coho and sockeye are, are good choices when it comes to, you know, feeling good about what you’re eating. Dave (42m 14s): Yeah. ’cause they’re man, and so they’re managed that, that’s the interesting part, right? ’cause they’re, there’s a lot 72 million sockeye coming back. They’re, they’re managing as part of it. But there’s also just the chinook, the fact that I’m, I’m guessing there was mismanagement too, but there’s also, like we said, other things going on. Do you think sockeye coho maybe just to take sockeye, do you think there’s a possibility in the future that the same thing could happen and it’s like, whoa, are are we seeing, you know, is there a history? Like I get, I’m just trying to get that thing like Chinook, it seems like, okay, we’re here now, no more Kenai, Chinook, no more fishing. It sounds like it’s been a 20 year thing of getting to this point. Do you think these other species have that potential too to, to fall in the same trap? Tim (42m 52s): I mean they, they absolutely do. And then, and then I think really the only thing you can do is to ensure the habitat and the water quality is good, right? Yeah. I mean, ’cause salmon are resilient and you know, you look at, I mean, you know this better than me. I mean, there’s examples all over the place. I, you know, it’s interesting. I mean, on the Snake River dam issue Yeah. We’re actually really tightly linked to that because Oh, you are? Yeah. A lot of those, a lot of those Fall Snake River Chinook would come to Southeast Alaska for part of their life cycle. Oh wow. And you know, we’ve seen dramatic reductions in, in harvest by the commercial fleet, the trollers in particular in response to the, you know, the listing of those Fall, snake River Chinook. So, I mean, I don’t know, you, you kind of think, you know, and I’ve only been on the periphery of it, but I’ve been able to talk with a lot of people down there. Tim (43m 38s): And you look at all that habitat in Idaho that those salmon can’t get to, and you wonder what would happen. I mean the, the Klamath I guess, you know, the, the preliminary results are incredible. Right? Dave (43m 48s): I know. Yeah. What are the, the results of Klamath showing that are, is there already results showing the, the what’s going, the benefit of what, what they did? Tim (43m 55s): Well, you know, yeah, I guess like, you know, from what I’ve read that there’s already Chinook, you know, making it all the way to Oregon. Dave (44m 1s): That’s amazing. And then the snake dams is obviously, probably no bigger issue, although those are, you would think would kind of be next, you know, but it’s been years, you know, 30 years people have been talking about ’em and you know, these, none of these things are easy. That’s, that’s the challenge. But what you’re saying is these Chinook historically would go up to the upper snake, they’d migrate out, and then they would grow in that southeast Alaska near where you are Yeah. And then turn around and come back. Tim (44m 26s): Yeah. They kinda like spent some time in the Gulf of Alaska. I, I actually worked on that issue for a short period of time years ago. And the federal government federal caucus came to Southeast Alaska when they were really thinking about, you know, his first big push to breach those four lower snake dams. And, and there were these, there were these older gentlemen in Petersburg, a commercial fishing community in central southeast Alaska. And this guy told this amazing story where he would go out in a rowboat with his little brother. They were like teenagers and their parents just let him go out in a rowboat at the south south end of one of the big islands here. And one would row and the other one would man the gurneys on the, as they trolled. And they, you know, you could row this boat at, at this dory, at essentially a speed that was perfect for catching king salmon. Tim (45m 6s): And, and they were pretty sure they were catching fall snicker or Chinook. They were enormous. And there was a time of year and they kind of consistently found them year after year feeding in this one spot. And, you know, it’s, it was kind of a really evocative story of, you know, something that was lost. And then this guy, you know, this was, this guy was like in this late seventies, but he, he essentially said that they just watched their, you know, ability to catch those fish vanish as those dams went in on the snake Dave (45m 34s): Right. In the fifties or whenever that was. Tim (45m 36s): Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it’s kind of, it’s anecdotal stuff, but those, I think those are powerful stories, you know, that I think we need to make sure get captured and repeated. And you know, that’s the thing with Chinook, right? Is they, they spend so much time in the open ocean and they, they range, they range widely. So there’s a lot of things that can eat them, a lot of things that can, they can interact with their, with their survival. And we’re all kind of stuck with this, right? None of us are blameless. We’re all got, we all got a role to play. Dave (46m 2s): Yeah. We all, all part of it. What is the, just quickly on the climate change, I know this is probably doesn’t get any bigger than this issue, but do you guys talk about that? Are you thinking, are you meeting and, and discussing climate change? Like what can we do? What’s going on? Tim (46m 15s): Well, we definitely do. I mean, it it definitely hanging over everything and affecting everything. We’ve kind of actively pushed for policies that’s to reduce the amount of greenhouse gas we’re pushing into the atmosphere and you know, we try to use salmon as a way to sort of discuss some of those bigger issues and know they can be so, they can be so hard to get your arms wrapped around. And I think, you know, we’re trying to find ways to talk to people where it’s something beyond, you’re gonna get less and you’re gonna pay more, which I think is often the case when you’re talking about climate change. And so, and you know, it might be true, but sometimes it’s hard for, it’s a hard pill for people to swallow. So, but it, it absolutely, I mean, you know, it, it definitely, you know, definitely flows through all the different issues and we work on, and all the, all the conversations and discussions. Tim (47m 1s): Yeah, Dave (47m 1s): Exactly. What is the, the, I, I guess I want to kind of start to take it outta here, and maybe we can talk about the indigenous people. I think the Klamath Dam, I think, from what I’ve heard, that was a big part. Like, I think the, the reason that went forward, they were down there really, you know, pushing for all that. And, and it actually happened. And I’ve heard relationships of indigenous people in Canada is different. What’s it like in Alaska? What’s it like for you working with the people there that basically, I mean, we, you know, essentially it’s really this crazy thing, right? Because you think of the history and I’ve even heard some crazy stories about like what the US did and, you know, to the indigenous people, essentially extirpated almost, right? Yeah. Yeah. What’s your take on it now and what can people learn from, like, people now that maybe aren’t around a lot of indigenous people, what can they maybe think about moving out of this today? Tim (47m 48s): It’s the most interesting and rewarding part of the work is to work with these communities. You know, they have this just unbelievably long, uninterrupted histories in these places. The way sort of Alaska native rights and title evolved here a little bit differently. We, there was an act in 1971 that created native corporations, believe it or not. So you have these for-profit corporations that own 44 million acres of land, and they’re, you know, required by law to generate revenue dividends for their shareholders, you know, their tribal enrollees. And so that sometimes leads to, you know, kind of like an interesting tug of war, not only within the indigenous communities, but the, you know, the greater Alaskan community between development preservation. Tim (48m 31s): And sometimes, sometimes you’ll have a native corporation that, that is pushing development, sometimes even development that we would submit is not great for wild salmon. And then over the last couple of decades, you’ve seen a reemergence of the, of the tribal governments, the, this legislation was supposedly supposed to extinguish sort of Indian country, the land over which Alaska native tribes would manage. But I think that was overstated. So you’ve seen a reemergence of, of tribal governments, and I mean, they’re in the middle of, or in a leadership position on almost every single issue about conserving salmon, restoring salmon habitat. Dave (49m 9s): Right. They’re at the table. Tim (49m 11s): Yeah. I mean, you know, not only at the table now, I mean they’re, they’re like in the center of all the conversations and, and frankly from a conservation perspective, we’re in way better shape because of that. Dave (49m 20s): Right, exactly. That that’s the thing. You want them at the table. That’s an important part of this. Yeah. Tim (49m 25s): And also brings a very different perspective, you know, sometimes, you know, we think, we think we’ve got things figured out. We talk in one and two and five year timeframes, and they’re like, you, you know? Yeah. Dave (49m 36s): You Tim (49m 36s): Need to think a little, Dave (49m 38s): I find that too. I, I find that most people think of it as their lifetime. It’s like, okay, I’ve lived here for 50 years and I’ve seen it all, you know, but actually, no. I mean, let’s go back 5,000 years. Yeah, Tim (49m 49s): Exactly. My, my coworker Dan said he was sitting down with an Alaska native gentleman elder a few months ago, and he is like, yeah. He’s like, I really appreciate the work you’re doing. You can take care of it for a while until we’re ready to take it all back. Right? Dave (50m 2s): Yeah. Yeah. Well, well that’s eventually in the bigger picture. Right? That’s interesting. Because nature will find a way, you know what I mean? Like, there, there might be some species that disappear, but ultimately, I mean, that nature does find a way that’s like the natural evolution. It’s, it’s a kind of weird thing ’cause we’re humans in the middle of this, like making things harder, but it’s always trying to recover. Right. And probably will. And in some form there’ll probably be some different, you know, maybe Chinook, maybe they do disappear, but there will probably be some other life history or species or something that changes it. It’s kind of a crazy thing to think about. ’cause it’s way bigger than us. It’s way bigger than our lifetime. Right. We gotta be. Do you guys look at it? I guess maybe we could leave it here as, when you guys look out, are you looking out a hundred years, 200 years, you know, thousands of years. Dave (50m 44s): I Tim (50m 44s): Mean, we try, you know, but I, I will say there is a sense of urgency, especially with Chinook, right? Like, I think we do look on a hundred years, and there’s two ways of looking at it. It’s like, well, you know, given a chance, nature probably can and will heal itself. But that said, you know, with climate change and the number of people on the planet, I would hate to, you know, feel like we didn’t do everything we possibly could to make sure that like, you know, two or three generations forward, kids are saying like, I wish I could have caught or eaten or even seen a Chinook. I mean, I don’t want to be in that. I mean, I, no, you know, I don’t want to, no, I wanna be able to say that I did everything I possibly could to ensure that didn’t happen. Dave (51m 21s): Yeah, no, I agree. I think in, I mentioned, you know, Adam at The Star, but Fishtown, I mean, he said that too. He is got a daughter and I have a couple little daughters as well, and it’s the same thing. Yeah. You want them to be able to experience what we’re experiencing in our lifetime, you know, in their lifetimes. Yep. So I think, I think you gotta focus there and have that outer view too, the bigger picture to say, Hey, we’re gonna do everything we can right now, but as things change, we’re going to adapt and do whatever we have to do. It’s kinda a crazy conversation. How do you, how do you stay? This is always the, the question I have is, how do you stay positive? How do you keep a positive? Are, are you always positive or are you more of a, like a pessimistic per, how do you look at all this? Tim (51m 57s): I think I’m more like, I’m positive, but darkly sarcastic. It’s probably, I think, I think, you know, sarcasm humor. I think humor is really important. You know, remember to laugh at yourself and kind of laugh at the circumstance every once in a while. And then honestly, you know, I mean, one of the best things about here is you just can step outside and, and be in a pretty cool place. Yeah. Very quickly. And that, I gotta say, you know, like you get stuck in front of your computer in an office and stupid phone calls, zoom calls and things like that. But podcasts, yeah, no, podcasts are great. But like, but then, you know, just even like a, just going and wetting the line for an hour or like taking a walk, and it’s amazing how restorative that is. And God, Dave (52m 33s): Can you do that right now? Like right out your door? Do you have streams within nearby walking distance? Yeah, Tim (52m 38s): I mean, like this time of year they’re, you know, they’re, it’s not real fishable, but Yeah. Absolutely. Dave (52m 43s): Well, when’s the best time to, so we’re talking June and what’s the town? What actual town are you in? Tim (52m 48s): I’m in Juno. Dave (52m 49s): Yeah, you’re in Juno. So what is June? Because Juno’s a obviously a, a huge hub. I mean, describe that a little bit. What, what is Juneau like, how does it compare to say, maybe not Anchorage, but any other bigger town in Alaska? Tim (52m 60s): Yeah, it’s, it’s funny, it acts a lot bigger than it is. It’s 30,000 people, but you can’t, you can’t drive here, right? So you either have to fly in here or take a ferry, right? So it’s kind of like, it’s really self-contained. We have a hospital, there’s a symphony for God’s sakes, you know? Oh wow. There’s an ice rink here, it’s ski area. It’s pretty amazing, you know, and it becomes a huge turn. It’s the state capital. So there’ll be a lot of activity here in another couple of weeks when the legislature convenes. Then we have just this exploding amount of cruise ship based tourism, you know, 1.6 million people. But you can go 15 miles away and you’re on the admiral, the Island National Monument, Kouts new wilderness, just a thousand square mile protected area. It was actually designated by President Carter and, you know, subsequently passed by Congress. Tim (53m 43s): There’s a thousand brown bears on the island. There’s unbelievable steelhead, salmon Valley varden fishing, super wild, you know, really good deer hunting in the fall. You can go south, you can go north, you can, you can get away from people so quickly. And that’s just incredible. That’s Dave (53m 59s): Alaska. Yeah, Tim (53m 60s): I mean that’s, that’s Southeast Alaska. Dave (54m 1s): Southeast and really, I mean, seems like the Joe kind is with the Anchorage, right? Anchorage is really not quite like Alaska, but everywhere else you can just walk out your door and there’s go for it and nobody’s there. Tim (54m 12s): Yeah. I mean it grows, the distance grows a little bit every year. The saying is Anchorage is only a 20 or 30 minute drive from Alaska. Yeah, Dave (54m 18s): That’s, that’s the saying. Yeah. That, that’s perfect. Okay. And what about you? If one final one for, you know, we’re gonna be heading up there, actually, like I said, we’re gonna be heading up hitting the road system, going into Anchorage Drive-in. We’re gonna be probably also hitting Togiak that area as well. Wow. But where are you heading if you’re thinking, okay, a place in Alaska I haven’t been to yet, that’s on your bucket list. Where would that be? Tim (54m 39s): I have, I’d love to go out and try to fish for steelhead in the Aleutians. Oh, Dave (54m 43s): The Aleutians, yeah. Yeah. Tim (54m 45s): Heavy weather, you know, I mean, that’s just so cool to be out there Dave (54m 49s): So crazy too, isn’t it? The Aleutians, this island chain of that. You could see it when you put up Google Maps. I mean, it is amazing to see the Gulf of Alaska in that huge drop in where the Lucians are. Yep. And it actually goes all the way to Russia almost, doesn’t it? That that chain Tim (55m 3s): Almost, I mean, yeah, it, I I can’t remember what the flight time, I mean, they go from adac, which is way out on the end back to Anchorage. I mean, it’s like a, I think it’s like a two and a half hour flight in the Jet Dave (55m 12s): Adak. Yeah. And there’s at two at two station. Yep. So you’re saying, yeah, find a little island some, like you said, a little stream, kinda like Southeast. I know we had an episode we did in Southeast for Steelhead, and it sounded like a lot of those are these little tiny streams that just have, you know. Yeah. Tim (55m 27s): You know, I was away from Southeast for 10 years and lived in, in Homer up in South Central. I, I guess the other thing I’d love to do is like, sort of the central part of the Tongass has a, has a significant number of those small steelhead systems, you know, and like a spring trip maybe hit like five or six or seven of those from a boat if money wasn’t any object, you know, I, I mean that would be, that’s like super bucket list. And then, you know, I’ve been there a bunch of times, but it’s really hard to stay away from Bristol Bay in the fall. I mean, those rainbows are just, they’re freakish. They’re, I mean, they’re just, they’re also just like so vicious and so powerful. Dave (56m 2s): Yeah. They’re like in that last thing before they get, they know it. The cold’s coming, right? Tim (56m 6s): Yeah. And then they, you know, like some of the, like the que Jack River, those rainbows there, I guess they did some telemetry studies and they’ll, they’ll like swim like 30 miles in a day. Geez. Dave (56m 15s): Yeah. ’cause essentially they’re, I mean, there’s a lot of overlap. They, they’re steelhead, trout, rainbow. Yeah. There’s a lot of, you know, they just don’t go out into the ocean because they don’t have to. Yeah. So good. Well this has been great today. Any, anything else we didn’t cover today? You want to give a heads up before we head outta here? Tim (56m 30s): No, just enjoy your trip up here. Keep us posted. Dave (56m 33s): Yeah, I will, I will. Yeah, definitely. No, it’s gonna be awesome. We’re really excited about getting up there and yeah, Tim, we’ll we’ll leave it there today. We’ll send everybody out to salmon state.org to connect with you. And like we said, they can sign up to the email. That might be an easy way just to get started and, and figure out what we can do to help support and hopefully protect some of the species. Thanks again for all your time. Oh, Tim (56m 52s): Thank you. Dave (56m 54s): Alright, what can you do? What can you do? I hope that got you stirred up a little bit and you’re thinking about what you can do. Something easy you can do is sign up to the newsletter, the salmon state.org right now, and they’re gonna send you some information on, on what’s going on, where you can get involved. I think Bristol Bay was a good example. It’s gonna take that sort of effort to protect and recover, you know, and probably more effort and get in the Chinook, you know, recovered and everything that we talked about today. So do that right now. One heads up, YouTube, wetly swing.com/youtube. If you’re interested in checking us out on YouTube, we’re just kind of relaunching the YouTube channel and we’ve got some content there. We’re also gonna have some full link episodes of this podcast there as we go. Dave (57m 36s): So stay tuned for that and I would love to hear there If you get a chance to subscribe, would really appreciate that. That helps us tons. Alright, what do we have next? What do we have next? Let’s take a look at what we have next, what we have next. I’m just looking now I’m scrolling down to the very bottom and we are gonna see what do we got here? We got Salmon State, we got a lot of good stuff here. Here we go. So yes, it is what I thought it was so golden Ro week. We had to postpone it a little bit to get some of our episodes up and ready to go. But it looks like we do have Golden Ro week coming, so stay tuned for that set Fly fishing and we’re gonna be putting together a trip to the other side. Dave (58m 16s): We’re talking Alaska here, but we’re gonna be heading down to South America, the other side of the, the Americas, and we’re gonna check that out too. So stay tuned for that. All right, I get outta here. Hope you have a great afternoon. Hope you have a wonderful evening or a fantastic morning. If it’s morning, maybe you’re just getting your cup of coffee. Maybe you saw This episode pop up and you’re interested on, you know what you could do. Maybe you’re in Alaska even having a cup of coffee, you got a river in your backyard and maybe it’s even Chinook time. I would love to hear a story from you if it is, if that’s you or if it’s, If you have a story for me, check in dave@weflyswing.com. I wanna give a shout out The Steelhead School. We wrapped, we filled it up. That’s gonna be going strong here. Dave (58m 56s): We got the crew. I wanna give a big shout out to Kevin. I know he just joined, he got access to that. So he’s gonna be heading there with Brian. Brian Ska, of course in the Bucket podcast. Jeff Liske Great Lakes dude podcast. And John McMillan from the Deep Wade Podcast, or our brother from another mother, John McMillan is gonna be, is gonna be epic with Jeff on that trip. So I won’t be there this year, but I think the trip is twice as good, if not 10 times as good with those guys. So check it out. If you want to get access to next year’s Steelhead school, the best chance is to go to Wetly Swing Pro. If you go to wetly swing.com/pro, you can sign up there and anybody that’s in Pro gets first access to our trips and whole bunch of other things where you can build trips together with the community. Dave (59m 42s): All right, like I said, we’re getting out here. Have a great day and we will talk to you soon. Outro (59m 47s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly fishing show. For notes and links from This episode, visit wet fly swing.com.

Conclusion with Tim Bristol on SalmonState

Tim Bristol shared invaluable insights into the pressing challenges and victories in Alaska’s salmon conservation efforts. From the impact of climate change to the crucial role Indigenous communities play, there’s no shortage of issues affecting the future of these iconic fish. But the good news is, we all can make a difference. Whether it’s supporting sustainable practices or getting involved with organizations like SalmonState, there’s a lot we can do to help. So, if you’re inspired by Tim’s work and want to contribute to salmon recovery, visit salmonstate.org to learn how you can get involved.

In the Bucket #14 | Wilderness Steelhead Fishing Adventures with Tim Arsenault and Matt Bentley

Podcast

By

Dave

-

February 5, 2025

Today, we head to British Columbia with Tim Arsenault and Matt Bentley, two hardcore steelhead anglers who know these waters inside and out. We’ll dive into spay casting techniques, winter steelhead fishing strategies, and how to maximize your time on the water. You’ll hear about casting efficiency, the best fly lines for big rivers, and why jet boats can be the key to reaching untouched fish. Plus, Tim breaks down what it takes to win the Spey-O-Rama Championship, and Matt shares insights from years of guiding on BC’s legendary rivers. Let’s get into it!