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964 | Beyond the Giveaway #2: Trophy Pike and Trout Fishing at Scott Lake Lodge with Paul Plum

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Episode Show Notes

After announcing our Scott Lake Lodge giveaway months ago, I finally had the chance to meet our winner, Paul Plum, in person. What followed was five incredible days chasing trophy northern pike, giant lake trout, and Arctic grayling across one of the most remote fisheries in North America.

From floatplane flights into the Saskatchewan wilderness to unforgettable shore lunches cooked over an open fire, this trip reminded me why fly fishing adventures are about so much more than the catch.


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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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Show Notes with Paul Plum on Trophy Pike and Trout Fishing at Scott Lake Lodge

Paul Plum is a lifelong angler and passionate steelhead fisherman based in Northern California. After retiring, he dedicated much of his fishing time to Spey casting and chasing steelhead throughout California, Oregon, Washington, and the Olympic Peninsula.

Winning the Scott Lake Lodge giveaway introduced him to trophy northern pike, lake trout, and Arctic grayling for the first time. By the end of the trip, he described the experience with one simple word: “Fantastic.”

Arriving at Scott Lake Lodge

The adventure really began the moment we stepped off the floatplane. Everyone at the dock greeted us with a handshake and a smile, setting the tone for the rest of the week.

Scott Lake Lodge sits on a small island surrounded by enormous wilderness. The cabins, dining lodge, and grounds were immaculate, but what stood out most was the people who made every guest feel welcome.

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Trophy Pike, Lake Trout, and Arctic Grayling

None of us expected to catch so many trophy fish in one week. Between Scott Lake and our fly-out adventures, we landed giant northern pike, heavy lake trout, and surprisingly large Arctic grayling.

Paul’s biggest pike measured 42 inches, while our lake trout regularly stretched into the mid-30-inch range. Up in the tundra, we experienced nearly nonstop grayling action with fish approaching 20 inches.

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A Guide Who Made Every Day Better

Our guide Josh wasn’t just there to put us on fish. He constantly shared knowledge about casting, fish behavior, wildlife, and the unique waters surrounding Scott Lake.

Whether we were sight-fishing to giant pike or learning better single-hand casting techniques, Josh made each day both productive and educational.

One of my favorite moments came when Josh finally crossed something off his own bucket list by landing a giant lake trout on a dry fly.

Josh’s advice

  • Slow down your casting
  • Watch your back cast
  • Adjust retrieve speed to trigger following pike

Fishing Three Million Acres of Wilderness

One thing that impressed both of us was the scale of the fishery. Scott Lake Lodge has access to more than three million acres of water, allowing guides to rotate locations and avoid putting pressure on individual fisheries.

Some days we fished Scott Lake itself. Other days we climbed aboard floatplanes and flew more than an hour into remote tundra lakes where hardly anyone else fishes.

The conservation-first approach helps preserve trophy fish while keeping every day feeling fresh.

Wildlife we encountered

  • Moose
  • Bald eagles
  • Osprey
  • Swans
  • Loons

The Shore Lunch We’ll Never Forget

Fishing may have brought us north, but the shore lunch became one of the biggest highlights of the week.

After keeping a legal-sized pike, Josh cleaned the fish, built a fire from local wood, fried homemade potato chips, prepared fresh vegetables, and served everything inside warm wraps. It was one of the best meals either of us had ever eaten outdoors.

The dinners back at the lodge were equally impressive, with everything from filet mignon and lobster to rack of lamb arriving despite the lodge being accessible only by air.

Steelhead Lessons from Pike Fishing

Paul has spent years chasing steelhead with two-handed rods across California, Oregon, Washington, and the Grand Ronde. Surprisingly, he believes this trip actually made him a better steelhead angler.

Casting heavy flies all day with single-hand rods sharpened timing, casting rhythm, and fish-fighting skills that transfer directly back to steelhead fishing.

One phrase Paul shared quickly became one of my favorites.

“The Spey rod is a starvation stick.”

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More Than Fishing: The People Made the Difference

The fish were incredible, but the friendships may be what we remember most. Throughout the week we shared meals and stories with anglers who had been returning to Scott Lake for decades. Some had visited for over 30 consecutive years, while others made it their one annual fishing trip with lifelong friends or family.

Those conversations, along with Jason and the entire lodge staff checking in every day, made the experience feel personal from beginning to end.


Check out Scott Lake Lodge on Instagram @scottlakelodge.

Visit their website at scottlakelodge.com.

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Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
WFS 964 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: Some fishing trips fade into memories over time. Others keep getting better every time you tell the story. Today, we’re reliving one of those great weeks from trophy pike and giant lake trout to floatplanes, shore lunches and the people who made every day memorable. Joining us today is Paul Plum, winner of our Scott Lake Saskatchewan trip giveaway and a lifelong steelhead angler who has never experienced anything quite like Canadians far north. In today’s episode, you’re going to find out what it’s like catching trophy northern Pike Lake trout and Arctic grayling in the same week. Why this shore lunch that was cooked over a fire became one of the highlights of the entire trip. We’re gonna find out how Scott Lake manages millions of acres of water while protecting the fishery for future anglers. This is pretty interesting. The vast area that they cover is amazing. We were flying it in the floatplanes on this trip. Plus, you’re going to get the one word that Paul used to describe the entire experience and why he would head back to this place tomorrow. No question about it. All right. You can learn more. You can check in with scottlakelodge.com and check in with Jason and the crew. They’re all right. Here he is, Paul Plumb. How you doing, Paul? 00:01:15 Paul: I’m doing great today. 00:01:16 Dave: Awesome. Well, I’m excited about this episode today because we’re going to be we just got off the lake, you know, we were up at Scott Lake Lodge. And I think we could easily say this is one of the best trips we’ve probably both of us have ever been on. We’re going to talk about the lodge trip. You know, we’re talking about fishing. You’re a big steelheaders. So we didn’t know about that. We’ve got that in common. And and then just the whole thing, right? We just got off the trip. We’re going to break down a little bit on that, but maybe start us off just on, you know, I know we’re going to talk steelhead a little bit today too, but how did you first come to hear about the giveaway event that you won and talk about that? Because I know some people probably think these things are fake. Maybe people aren’t winning, but talk about that a little bit. 00:01:57 Paul: Well, I listened to the podcast, to the Wet Fly Swing podcast. And I was online one night and I saw this giveaway for the trip up to Scott Lake Lodge. And I thought, well, what the hell, I’ll enter it. So I did, and it was a month or six weeks later, I got a phone call and won the trip. I was announced that I won the trip and I think you called me. And then a couple days later, the general manager or the the lodge called me and welcomed me to the lodge. So it was fascinating. I never think especially like this. 00:02:34 Dave: Right, right. And this trip was we were kind of doing the numbers, but this was no small trip. I mean, we went out to a lodge, which is, you know, I’m sure one of the one of the great lodges in the world, you know, just with everything. But talk about that when you when we got up there, the lodge, you know, how would you describe the experience at Scott Lake? 00:02:51 Paul: I tell you, it was fascinating. From the time we got off the floatplane, we walk up the ramp. The dock going into the. The lodge grounds itself. Everybody met us with a handshake and a smile on their face. And that was the start of it right there. You and I got off onto land and we were just fascinated about how nice it was, how beautiful it was. The lodge buildings themselves are beautiful, but the surroundings, it’s just beautiful. The lodge itself is on a twelve acre parcel surrounded by a two hundred zero zero zero acre lake. You couldn’t ask for anything more beautiful. I mean, no matter which way you look, North, south, east, west. It was beautiful. And in the lodge, buildings themselves were very nice. It was very well kept and the people were just. You couldn’t find a nicer group of people. And everywhere from from the guides to the hostess and their staff. Yeah. 00:03:51 Dave: And our guide and we’ll talk about Josh. We had the same guide all week for five days and he was just. He couldn’t get any better than Josh, right. He had the handlebar mustache and he had it all going. What was your what was your memory of now thinking back? It’s only been a few days, but Josh was a pretty good guy, wasn’t he? 00:04:09 Paul: Oh, Josh was a fantastic guy. And he was a book of knowledge. I mean, you could ask him about the fish. You could ask him about the surroundings, the tundra, or anywhere in Saskatchewan, or you could ask him about fishing. I had questions on the fishing. I had questions on casting because I usually mainly a double hand rod, and I was having some problems with the single hand rod. He helped me out. So you couldn’t ask for a better person? 00:04:36 Dave: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And the cool thing was, is both of us were going up there. I mean, you’re a big steelhead fisherman. I fished for a lot of species, but, you know, I had never caught a northern pike, a lake trout, and then grayling I had caught, but I had never caught in either of those other two. And, and we had not only catching fish, but trophy fish. Which one out of those three species do you have one memory that really sticks out? I know we caught some nice fish. 00:04:58 Paul: And you know what? They were all memories. I don’t care if they were a twenty four inch pike or twenty six inch pike. I mean, I caught I probably caught a hundred pike that were anywhere from twenty six to thirty six, thirty eight inches. And in my largest one was forty two inches. I mean, they fight good in the beginning, and then they can kind of go to a lull. But then after that, man, I tell you, the fight is on and getting them in. Sometimes it just burnt the fingers lying running through my fingers, burnt the edge of my finger. I had a little bird. 00:05:33 Dave: Oh yeah, on it. 00:05:34 Paul: So but the lake trout, uh, we do a spot of lake trout and those are beautiful. And they fight from the beginning to the end. They just fight the grayling that we got into. I mean, when we were up in the tundra, that’s where we really got into grayling. And we got forty five minutes of nothing but every cast catching grayling. and they are a beautiful fish. I wanted to hold one and get a picture with it, but I couldn’t hold it. That there seems they get so slippery once they get in the net they get real slippery and I didn’t want to hold one and try and damage it. So you know, because they bruise easily. So I didn’t get a picture of the guide. I got a picture with the guide holding it and they’re just a phenomenal little fish. I, my largest one was nineteen and a half inches and it was great. 00:06:23 Dave: Yeah, nineteen and a half inches. That is the amazing thing. You know, that’s a big grayling. And, um, and yeah, we had that spot where it was on fire and that was in Mosquito Lake, the same area where we went up above the same day and got into those lake trout, which was amazing because we were not fishing deep lake trout. We’ve heard this on the podcast. A lot of times you have to fish really deep, but this time of year, the lake trout were in shallower water and we were fishing in the tail out, you know, I mean, it was still big water. It was, you know, deep, but we were swinging flies and stripping. 00:06:50 Paul: Yeah, it was it was big water. It was. And we were only down about maybe eighteen inches at the at the most. And I got tired because we were catching so many and I finally I got tired and I said, I got to sit down for a minute. I said, Josh, would you like my rod? And he took it and we had a. Oh, what was the fly? We had a. 00:07:12 Dave: It was a stimulator. 00:07:13 Paul: Yeah. We had a stimulator on. And Josh, one of his goals in life on his bucket list was to catch a lake trout on a top, water fly like a simulator. And he did. He caught a thirty eight incher on a stimulator on top of the water. And it was fascinating to watch that come in. And it took him probably. I bet it took him close to ten minutes to get him to the boat. It was just beautiful. 00:07:39 Dave: So yeah. And the cool thing about the lake trout, he caught this lake trout on a stimulator. And we were catching them on big flies like big six inch pike flies. We were using the same stuff, right. And so we were and we were stripping in and swinging, like we said. But these lake trout were, you know, Thirty six inches. Thirty five right. They were all in their mid teens, you know, big fish. And we’ll have we’ll have some photos. 00:07:58 Paul: They were all about the same size all in the thirty to thirty six inch range. 00:08:02 Dave: Yeah. So these are big lake trout. And uh, and then like we said, just the experience we flew out that day from the lodge, from Scott Lake Lodge over to mosquito, which was an old historic lodge that had been there. I mean, it just seemed like the whole trip kept getting better. And then all of a sudden it’s like, we’re leaving. What do you take away? I mean, I know it’s a lot right on this whole thing, but do you have, you know, the food was amazing. The trout, you know, the lodge. How do you explain it? We’re trying to explain it obviously here to people, but, um, is this something I guess I’m guessing you would go back to it if you could. 00:08:35 Paul: Well, the best way to describe it, in my opinion, is it’s a Four seasons quality lodge with a chance of catching not just fish every day, but trophy fish every day. I mean, the two experiences together is that’s on anybody’s bucket list. There are guys that have been going there for thirty years. Uh, I’m the average at our table at dinner. The guys have been going there for twenty years. 00:09:01 Dave: Wow. Yeah. 00:09:01 Paul: And all they could talk about was the big fish. From the time we met him in the hotel the night before we flew out to the lodge. They were talking about these fish, these being anywhere from thirty six to forty two, forty four, seven, forty seven inches long. And I was thinking, yeah, right. Somebody photoshopped those pictures. Well, no, when you get there, you’re catching them. And it’s just amazing. 00:09:26 Dave: Yeah. And the thing I loved about it was we caught them in a lot of different ways. You know, we were in some areas you were blind casting. But then remember that day we got into that little backwater, we were hitting the backwaters and we were seeing the fish, and then we were casting to them. And then Josh was on the platform kind of coaching us. He was like, uh, it’s almost like we’re saltwater fishing, right? He was right. And a lot of those fish you were seeing come up and take it. Or if you didn’t, Josh was coaching us. That was pretty unique, wasn’t it? 00:09:50 Paul: Yes it was. I mean, the pike, they could be right by the boat. I mean, they could be off the side of the boat, just a foot and then maybe two feet down. And you could take that fly in front of them, and you could speed it up or slow it down to agitate them, and they would take it. 00:10:08 Dave: That’s crazy. 00:10:09 Paul: It was amazing. It was crazy. You can’t get up with any other species that I know of. 00:10:13 Dave: No, that was the thing. You can’t. I mean, it was like cat and mouse. That’s how they described it, right? Cat and mouse. And if you if you went too slow, it’d move away. And a lot of times they wouldn’t take. But if you had it just right and you kept it going, I mean the fish and then these are like we said, big giant fish. They would eat it and then you’d have this fish on. I mean, you gotta, I kind of now sit here. It’s amazing because we’re, we’re just a couple days after, you know, kind of getting back. It still seems almost like a dream, doesn’t it, as you look back back to it. 00:10:39 Paul: Yes it does. I can remember we were I think it was probably about the same spot. We could see him down there and they were like, you know, honkers, they were four foot long fish, and we kind of dropped the fly down and it had enough weight that we could kind of ding him on the head a little bit and wake him up. And they would, you could get them to chase it sometimes. Most of the time you could, but sometimes they would. They’re sitting down there, they’ve had a big meal and the water’s warm and they’re sitting there digesting and sleeping. It was amazing when we were up at, uh, you know, these fish are so big. Some of these big ones, you know, the thirty eight to forty eight inch long fish, they T-Bone a fish that’s like twenty four inches or twenty six inches long. They’ll T-Bone it, take a bite out of it, and then they go back and eat it up. 00:11:28 Dave: Crazy. 00:11:29 Paul: We were fishing. It was up at Mosquito Lake and we had a one of those lake trouts on. And if you can remember, it, puked up a fish about half its size. It was you know, I looked at that. Whoa. You know. Yeah. Yeah. It’s amazing. 00:11:46 Dave: Yeah, that was cool. 00:11:47 Paul: Pike. Do that all the time. So what I like about about it too, is the Conservation act that they have. They they don’t overfish in area. I think the guides, the way I understand, they know where they’re going each day. So nobody retraces the track the next day or the day after, you know, there, there’s enough water there that they can spread out and then the fish aren’t getting overfished. And it’s just amazing. 00:12:16 Dave: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. The conservation is good. And we, they handle the fish, right. So you don’t end up, you know, well cutting yourself because the pike have like five hundred razor sharp teeth. Right. That’s one of the things. And Josh got nicked by one on the trip. I saw that happen. But yeah, so, so you kind of have, I think, a little bit of everything I wanted to give a shout out to also everybody that was there. You mentioned a few, but we had kind of our crew, right? We were at the hotel when we first met before we got there, and we ran into, uh, Julian and Carl and Mike and Dave. Right. And then and then also John and, and John’s dad. Right. So we kind of had this little crew at our table the week. That was a pretty awesome crew, wasn’t it? 00:12:55 Paul: Yes. That was an awesome crew. And then Dave and Mike’s guide set with us and ate a couple times. Uh, Brian, there was another guy, Paul, that sat and ate with us one night. That’s part of it is how those guys sit with us and we get to enjoy them. And hopefully they enjoyed us too. So I think one of the other things I want to mention too, is Scott Lake might be two hundred zero zero zero acres, but they have the rights to fish over three. Three million acres of water. So, you know, just think of that. I mean, that’s a lot of water. 00:13:29 Dave: It’s a lot. Yeah. And the way they cover that, that was interesting too, because, you know, with these float planes, you have the little beavers. But we were using the otters and the bigger ones. And the reason they picked those up is that it allows you to cover more ground, right? So when we flew into mosquito, which was about an hour plus, you know, flight, it wasn’t that bad, right? We flew all the way. I’m not sure how many miles we flew, but we went all the way across that three million acres and hit mosquito. 00:13:51 Paul: Yes, it was an hour and twenty minutes. So that’s what I clocked with the twins. It was, uh. I’m not sure how many miles it was. They were averaging one hundred and twenty miles an hour, so probably forty miles. It was in the tundra. I mean, Scott Lake, it’s the lodge is only about ninety yards away from Northwest Territories border or the sixtieth parallel. And we flew all the way up to the fifty ninth parallel. 00:14:20 Dave: So yeah, we flew from the lodge was in the trees, but the forest there, the trees are such a rough environment. These small trees were like three hundred years old, but they’re only, you know, thirty feet tall. Right? 00:14:31 Paul: At the most. Yeah. 00:14:32 Dave: At the most. Yeah. So we had this forested area at Scott Lake, and then we flew up into the tundra where there was basically no trees. And we saw I didn’t see a muskox, but I think Josh saw one. And then, you know, there’s um caribou up there and tundra bears, right? Like lots of cool wildlife. And we saw those, uh, remember the osprey nest we saw in that giant rock? 00:14:52 Paul: You know, we saw osprey. 00:14:53 Paul: And then we have pictures of the babies that were in the nest. The mother and father were flying above us and squawking, like, get the devil out of there. 00:15:03 Paul: Leave them alone. 00:15:04 Paul: That’s the day, too, that we saw. We saw a pair of, um, swans, and then we saw a single swan later. Then we saw a pair of bald eagles. And then we saw a single bald eagle. And then we saw the moose. I think we’re all. We saw three moose. We saw two that day and then one another day. 00:15:23 Dave: Yeah. Those moose were great. 00:15:24 Paul: Oh they’re. 00:15:25 Paul: Fascinating you. 00:15:26 Paul: Know. 00:15:26 Dave: Yeah. It’s a rough you know, it’s a rough climate up there because, you know, winter comes and things are, you know, locked down, but so you don’t have as many as much wildlife maybe as you would have probably south, you know, just because of the climate. But there’s, there’s plenty of going on, including the, um, the loons, right. With that great song. 00:15:42 Paul: Oh yeah. 00:15:43 Paul: The loons. We saw loons just about every lake we went on, I believe. I don’t remember seeing them in the tundra, but I. We saw them everywhere else and they are. They’re fascinating little birds. I can’t imitate their their sound. 00:15:58 Paul: Yeah. 00:15:58 Dave: No, we’ll put a. Maybe we’ll get a little link in the show notes to some loons. The sound they make, which is, is amazing. So so that’s, you know, we’ve got lots. I mean, it almost seems like there’s so much I’m trying to describe it that it’s hard to really put it into words, you know, but, um, but I did want to get a little bit of your background on, you know, just your experience because I think it was unique. You won this trip, right? And it was totally random, which is which all of us are, right? We randomly pick a winner and it just turns out that you are this steelhead angler who has, you know, tons of rods and this is your thing. So talk about that. When did you get into steelhead? Have you been doing this a while? 00:16:33 Paul: No, I. 00:16:34 Paul: I fished when I was younger, back in the seventies, and then I gave it up because of work and travel. I didn’t start again until two thousand and six two thousand and seven. It was single hand rods, but then I really didn’t start fish. That was only once or twice a year, and I didn’t start fishing again until I retired in twenty twelve. And I picked up the Spey rod. It was about two thousand and fifteen sixteen and yeah, that’s my passion. Two handed rod and steelhead. I just I travel anywhere, I fish locally here in California, in Northern California, the eel, the van Duzen, the smith. And I’ll go up to Klamath and then, but I’d love to go up to the different rivers in Oregon along the coast or inland Oregon. And then I’ll go all the way up to the op the Olympic Peninsula and fish around forks and I. I have guides and all those different areas that most of those guys I really love and, and fish with them as much as I can. 00:17:38 Dave: So check out Montana Fly Fishing Lodge, a twenty twenty four Orvis endorsed Lodge of the year finalist, where luxury meets adventure on one point five miles of private, wild and scenic East Rosebud River frontage. Experience world class fly fishing on numerous Yellowstone Basin streams, gourmet cuisine made from locally sourced ingredients and rustic luxury accommodations surrounded by breathtaking wilderness. You can book your all inclusive Montana fly fishing adventure today and discover why they are the premier destination for unforgettable fishing experiences. Head over to Montana Fly Fishing lodge dot com right now. You’ve also fished with some pretty big names. You know, people we’ve had on the podcast, Dick Hogan, you kind of know everybody, right? It sounds like you fished with a number of those people. Did you? Was that on the Grand when you first met Dick? Was that on the Grand Ronde? 00:18:29 Paul: Yes. The first time I met Beck was on the Grand Ronde, and Dick was in Alaska when the Spey rod first really came to this country, and he helped develop the the spay lines with Edward and Scott O’Donnell. And then. But I fished with on that group up there, it was, uh, Corey Dettman and that’s who I fished with on the Grand Ronde. And then Dick was a guest of his on the trip to help people learn how to spay and explain it. And then, uh, I have fish with Scott Howell, who was up there with him too. There were nine guys that are really pretty famous with it, Ed Ward, who has, uh, opus and yeah, it just a really nice tight knit group of guys. All of them are. But Dick is a, he’s a great individual, along with Scott Howell and Corey Dettman. He’s a character to be around. So yeah, it’s really great people. 00:19:29 Dave: That’s great. What is the you know, for those. I mean, there are some steelheaders in the audience here, but talk about the difference between steelhead fishing, you know, with the spey rod versus what we were doing up at Scott Lake. Is there any comparison? 00:19:41 Paul: I think if you go up there and you fish those fish up there, Scott Lake, it’s going to make you a better steelhead fisherman. The casting is all single hand rods and you’re stripping in all the time. So it’s really like a fish and a streamer. These bugs that you’re fishing are, you know, some of them were four inches long. I was throwing some that were six and weighted down. And man, it’s just I’m still tired. I’ve been home for a couple of days, but I haven’t recovered yet. 00:20:10 Dave: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It’s different. I mean, I think the whole the whole thing, the fishing when you think about it. Yeah. We were stripping flies. They were big flies. Single hand casting steelhead is spey for the most part. Right. It’s um you’re not getting a lot of fish. Right. That’s probably the biggest thing. The fact that steelhead, you’re sitting there sometimes for a day without touching a fish. Right. And up there at Scott Lake, it’s fish all day long pretty much. 00:20:33 Paul: With you know, the thing is, is you’re fishing with a starvation stick or it’s a fish of a thousand casts. And a lot of times I can remember you’ll be two, three, four days without catching the steelhead. You know, it depends on the river. It depends on the water. Depends on the fly. There’s so many variables. But up there. Scott Lake, here you are. You’re fishing and you’re not catching a fish. Every cast, but one out of five casts, you’re catching one. And I tell you, it’s work to get them in. It’s not simple. I mean, you got a fish on the line that, you know, it’s anywhere from twenty eight to thirty six inches long on the average. And that fish, I don’t know how much they weigh. They’re probably, you know, fifteen, sixteen pounds. Look at the size of them. And I mean, it’s hard getting them in the lakes might not have a big current, but there is that water factor there. And it’s just tough. It’s hard. But when we were up at the tundra and we caught them out of the river there, I mean, it was a real struggle to get them in, right? 00:21:37 Dave: Yeah. Because you had the current, you had a little bit of the current. 00:21:40 Paul: Yeah. It was every bit as I think it was probably harder to get them in up there than it was a steelhead, just because the length of the rod and, and the current, you don’t have a way to hold it. You’re holding it with one hand. You don’t have that, that leverage that you have with a two handed rod, right? 00:21:57 Dave: Yeah. That’s it. You’re basically catching steelhead and bigger big steelhead size weight fish, right. But with a single hand rod. Yeah. 00:22:05 Paul: Yeah. And it’s it’s tough. It worked out. You know, that first fish that I caught that pike when I caught that forty two incher. I mean, I had to sit down for a second. I was shaking so bad, so excited, I know. 00:22:19 Dave: God, I was just looking at some of those photos and we’ve got some good ones. Like we said, we’ll share. I mentioned or you mentioned the starvation stick. That is something I haven’t heard of. We have to have that quote in the in the show notes too. That’s I’ve never heard that before. That’s the steelhead spey rod, the starvation stick. Is that right? 00:22:34 Paul: Yep. A lot of gear guys would say, what are you doing with that starvation stick? 00:22:40 Dave: Oh that’s good. Yeah, no, I’m loving that. So okay. Well, this is a good start to what we’re talking about here. We’ve got we’ve got a little bit of a perspective on it. You know, obviously we’re not going to hit on everything today, but one of the things that I, you know, wanted to touch on, which I hadn’t had you been on a floatplane before, like that landing in the water? 00:22:57 Paul: No, I have not. And that was awesome. I mean, the, the first time when we got it to Stony Rapids, we flew from Edmonton to Stony Rapids on a jet. And then when we get off the jet and we get shuttled to where we catch the floatplane and getting on that, and you think I’ve been on the small planes a lot or quite a bit, but to go off the water was fascinating. You know, I’ve got pictures of it. The spiking of the spoons coming. 00:23:25 Dave: Off the pontoons. 00:23:26 Paul: Yeah. 00:23:27 Dave: Remember how he did that? Because it’s cool. We both sat up front, co-pilot right at a time and. Yeah. And you could see, I mean, it’s he’s, he does that thing with the wheel to get him up on plane, where he shakes the wheel back and forth, and it helps to get the pontoons on plane so they can take off. But yeah, you’re taking off on this lake and then you’re always, you know, anytime you’re in planes, you know, you’re always at least I am. Occasionally you think like, oh man, you know what happens if you go down this thing, right? You’re like, this is kind of crazy. And but the cool thing about those planes is they can pretty much land anywhere, right? Water or that’s an amazing thing. 00:23:58 Paul: Yes, they could. And then my hat’s off to the pilots. I think we had two different pilots and, uh, they had three on staff up there. But all the pilots are top notch. They really great guys. And when we get to different places, they help everybody get ready. They help people get off the plane. They help get the gear off the plane. They help get the gear on the plane. They make sure to get in the boat. Good. Everybody was so helpful. It’s amazing. I just been around people like that for a long time. It seems like. Yeah, they were great. 00:24:32 Dave: Yeah, that was good. That was really good. Yeah, I think Derek was one of our pilots he had there. I think he took us into mosquito. 00:24:39 Paul: Yes. He took us into. 00:24:40 Paul: Mosquito and he took us into the other lake. And I can’t remember the name of it, but he took us into that. And then he flew us out on the day we left. 00:24:48 Dave: Yeah. On the day we left. And the other cool one, like you mentioned, we flew from Seattle up to Edmonton. And then we got on that plane, the charter in Edmonton. We had the two gals that were they were quite a hoot, weren’t they? The ones that basically helped out with everything. And they were on the flights. 00:25:05 Paul: Yes, they. 00:25:05 Paul: Were their sisters. So they they check you in when you get over to where you catch the jet in Edmonton to go to Stony Rapids, they check in, they weigh your luggage to make sure that the plane isn’t overweight, because they’ve got a lot of gear that goes back and forth on the plane, too. It’s not just the passengers and their gear going to the lake. It’s all the provisions that the lake needs to operate the food, you know, because those girls get a lot of. They’ll get an email from the lodge telling their shopping list. So then not only are getting food, but they’re taking in their beer picked up, they’re getting their other hard liquor picked up. So it’s a smooth working clock no matter how you look at it. They all work together. But those girls were a hoot. They made the trip, they got you relaxed, and then they flew back with you because the day that we left, other people were coming in. The next the next group of people were coming in that day. So they flew them over to Stony Rapids. So then they flew us back from Stony Rapids, back to Edmonton. They talked to us and got together with as much leaving as they did when we first got there. 00:26:20 Dave: Right. And that’s the the really crazy thing. We talked about that a little bit. The logistics to put a build a lodge out on this remote lake, right? Think of the it’s all got to come in by plane, you know, and they have everything. A four star lodge, five star lodge on this island. So right it came. It came by plane. I think originally the big stuff came by ice, right? They dropped in when the lake was frozen. 00:26:40 Paul: Right, right. 00:26:41 Paul: When the when the lodge first started. They have pictures there. They had a DC three with skis on it. So they would take it in on the wintertime and they used it until they couldn’t anymore. You know, it just finally wore out on them. But everything goes in on skis in the wintertime. I had conversations with, uh, Jason, the CEO, GM last winter in March, and he told me they were taking stuff in and they take fifty five thousand pounds on the average. 00:27:12 Paul: Wow. 00:27:12 Paul: Back and forth in the wintertime, you know, they take building materials in because when the lodge closes up in September, the last of September, it takes them three days to board up all the windows and get it. 00:27:24 Paul: Oh, yeah. 00:27:25 Paul: Ready for the wintertime unhook and water lines and draining out toilets and all that type of stuff. But then after most of the staff leaves, then the maintenance people and all of the key people, they stay and make a shopping list of what they want to do for the next next spring when they open it up like building materials, what are we going to replace? What are we going to try to improve on? And they make improvements each year. They start in April sometime and work through April to May till it opens up. And then like this was week seven. So they open up, you know, right around the end of May, first of June. 00:28:06 Dave: Yeah. That’s right. And then they’re going right. And then then we, we came in in July, but they start probably having folks come in later in June. Right. The first crew. 00:28:14 Paul: Yeah, about. 00:28:15 Paul: the first of June is when they start somewhere in that neighborhood. So they’re from a month and a half. They’re getting everything prepped, they’re getting the walk path all rigged up and straightened up. They’re doing new building projects, you can see that they replaced some siding or they do upgrades on the building. One of the buildings we were in, they did an upgrade on it this year and you could you could tell it, but I mean, the buildings are in really great shape and they take a lot of pride on them. I mean, little small things. At one time they had dirt paths walking around building the building. Then they put gravel down. Well, the gravel was noisy for people sleeping. If a guy was walking by at five o’clock in the morning or something like that. So then they took a chipper to the island and they chipped up their wood, and they got wood chips on all the cart paths now, and that’s quiet and it’s cleaner. It’s cleaner than gravel, it’s cleaner than dirt. So and. 00:29:12 Paul: You know, it’s. 00:29:13 Paul: It’s threefold the best way to go. And then they got enough dead trees around fallen trees, and they can go get them off of different islands or different land somewhere, and they haul them back and ship them up. They’ll get a tree that’s, you know, up to five inches in diameter somewhere in that neighborhood and go back and chip it up, and then they can haul it around with their four Wheeler and a cart and put it on the path and keep everything looking beautiful. 00:29:40 Dave: Yeah. But yeah, those. Yeah. And the cabins were great. We had the, the cabin on the very end. There was a view of the, the lake out the deck. Right. All that stuff. And then one thing I was remembered, I definitely will never forget. This is the shore lunch. We had one shore lunch that, that and I, after I talked to a few other people, it sounded like others got had a shore lunch every day, but I think I was loving fishing. Right? I think we were just going. We were into it. But that shore lunch was unbelievable, right? We caught a pike. I mean, do you remember what Josh went through to put that together? I wish I could get a video of him doing that whole thing, but it was pretty cool. 00:30:12 Paul: Yeah, I have quite a few pictures of it, but, I mean, we caught a pike and it was. It was damaged. What? I can’t remember what happened to it. 00:30:20 Dave: And it was small, right. There’s only a certain you can keep one or two a day and they’re a small, small range. 00:30:25 Paul: Yeah. And so we kept this. He filled it out and he showed us how you debone it. Get the the bone out. And because they’re kind of shaped like a tuna, in a way, they got bone out their sides. You know, typical fish has a backbone thin around the belly. These are a little bit different than that. And so he got he was very careful getting all the bones out of it. And so he had the filet strips. There were like four in this fish, one on the belly section, one on the back and on both sides. So then he takes those and he cut them into about four inch pieces. And then, uh, when we got to shore, he got them out and he, he put them in some spice in a bag and shook it around. And then he put added flour to it. And while he was doing that, he had prepped all the different vegetables. So we, we had onions. We had red cabbage. I think there was some lettuce, some cilantro and cheese. Then he took potatoes and he had a little banjo that he cut the potatoes in his oil that he had cooking. And then we had potato chips, French fried potato chips. And in that fish, when he he took the potato chips out. And then he did the fish. And then he put everything together in a wrap. And it was fantastic. It was probably the best shore lunch I’ve ever had. 00:31:48 Dave: If one hundred percent. Yeah, it was the best shore lunch. It was. 00:31:51 Paul: I think our hats off to the kitchen staff because our go lunches, our sack lunches phenomenal. We had some of the best sandwiches I think I’ve ever had. 00:32:01 Dave: It was all good. And I’m a. That’s one thing about me. I’m. Food is my. Even though I don’t eat amazing food every day. I mean, I love food, you know, and I feel like that shore lunch was off the charts. But then the dinners, you know, I mean, filet mignon, we had we had lobster, snow crab. I mean, right, every meal at dinner was, was nuts. 00:32:20 Paul: Yeah. We had that, uh, duck or rack of lamb. Um, yeah, we had some fantastic meals, you know, and you gotta remember all this stuff has flown in. So I mean, the variety that we had, but the salad bars every night, the salad bars were just fantastic. The homemade dressings were off the chart. But then in the morning, the cereal bars, the breakfast bar, you know, seven different cereals. I mean, they had three basic cereals, but then they had all of the, the different little boxes of cereals. They weren’t boxes. They were big, bold type containers with cereals, you know, but there was like a selection of seven. But the fresh fruit, strawberries, pineapple, cantaloupe, uh, watermelon. 00:33:10 Dave: Plenty of food. I mean, I know you don’t eat a ton, right? For your, but you, you probably ate more than you normally do. Right on that trip. 00:33:16 Paul: Yeah. We won’t say how many pounds I gain. Well. 00:33:20 Dave: But. Right. 00:33:21 Paul: Food was the food was off the chart. That’s all there was. 00:33:24 Dave: Yeah. And that short lunch was. Now I go back to Mary because he he went up there. We literally got out on this little bedrock kind of landmass. And he, he cut down this little. Well, there’s this dead tree that was dead up there. He cut that down, he chopped it up, and he stacked it across the fire. And it just made a fire of wood. And then he started up with moss, got it going. And then, yeah, he deep fried. He had this big pan with oil in it. And he was basically deep frying the chips. Just the experience, the experience there like that is pretty cool. 00:33:52 Paul: Yeah. And watching it, watching it all come together was cool. He knew exactly what he was doing, you know, and it was timely. The oil was heating up while he was cutting up all the vegetables. And then while the he had basically the vegetables cut up by the time the fire got going in and the oil was hot, then as soon as he knew the oil was hot, he just, uh, basically filleted those potato chips into the oil. You know, he can put them on that angel thing that he had and just zing zing zing zing and. 00:34:25 Dave: Just went for. 00:34:25 Paul: It. I mean, went for three potatoes like quick. Yeah, they were in there and they cooked for, I don’t know, a better part of ten minutes. I would say took them out, strained them, took them out, and uh, then they put them in a big bowl and he added some spice to them, a little bit of salt, but I’m not sure what the other spice was, but they were very tasty. Then he cooked up the the fish and everything came together. It was terrific. Matter of fact, you ate a whole one and so did I. And it was a wrap. And those were twelve inch, uh, shells that he was using. And then we both ate another half of one a piece. 00:35:07 Dave: So yeah, we can. Yeah. We couldn’t have just, uh, just one that was, that was too good. 00:35:12 Paul: And there were a couple pieces of fish left over and he brought them over. And I think we grabbed those and ate them up off on the side. So. 00:35:23 Dave: This episode is brought to you by AVC Rig Adventure Vehicle Concepts out of Colorado. These guys build next level adventure vans designed to help you explore farther and stay out longer. Are you dreaming of a full van build? Or maybe you just need the best aluminum cabinets and storage for your DIY rig? AVC rig makes it easy to turn your vehicle into the ultimate mobile base camp. You can check them out right now at avc dot com, that’s a v c rig dot com. Fishing expeditions offers world class fly fishing right off Alaska’s incredible road system. From monster rainbow trout to feisty Arctic grayling, you’ll chase big species in the stunning landscape. Whether you’re a seasoned angler or just starting out, their expert guides ensure an unforgettable adventure. Book your trip today before spots fill up and experience Alaska’s diversity like never before. Check them out right now. That’s Fishing expeditions dot com. I want to give a shout out to because we had we can’t do these events without our partners. You know, I feel like that’s one thing that we had a bunch of amazing partners on this thing. And one of them, I’ll just talk about a few. You mentioned, of course, Jason at Scott Lake Lodge and the team up there, but also Darrell with Visit Saskatchewan. Big shout out to Darrell. He was a big reason this came together. I’ve been talking to him behind the scenes and as well as some other partners Toyota was you know, I’m a big Toyota fan with my truck, but they were a big partner on this one. And then really cool happened. We’re going to talk about this probably more, but we were using I had I brought this old lamp and glass rod and you know, it was it was okay, but the line wasn’t right for it that I got. But, um, you brought a pescador on the fly and a San Juan rod works that I actually used the whole time, right? 00:37:12 Paul: Yes. I won both of these rods in the giveaway. They were part of the giveaway package. They were eight weights, nine foot eight weights. They were great, great rods. They worked perfect. I mean, I mean, we actually kind of fought over who was going to use this rod that day or different waters. So yeah, we’re great rocks. We loved them. 00:37:33 Dave: Yeah, they were definitely an eight weight. The setup that you had was there were nine foot eight weights. Both of them pescador on the fly and San Juan rod works. And then you had what were the lines we were using? Because those lines set perfectly. 00:37:45 Paul: The lines I was using, I had reeled up on those was an S, a Titan sonar. 00:37:50 Dave: That was it. Just like your Titan sonar, just your nine foot eight weight standard Titan sonar line. 00:37:55 Paul: I had three, three different line setups, and they were all the Titan sonar. And one was a float, one was a mid sink and the other was supposedly a full sink. But I didn’t get the feeling it was a full sink. It seemed to be more of a floater too, but they were great lines. 00:38:14 Dave: Yeah. So that’s a big shout out to all the partners which made this this happen here. And, and I think what we’re also going to be doing is doing a little bit of follow up on, you know, we had a couple other of the clients that were at the lodge were actually two guys that I met from Saskatchewan, and they were it was a great story. They were actually pilots themselves. They flew up from south in Saskatchewan up to Stony Rapids and parked their planes there. Cessnas. Right. Yeah. And so I think I’m going to have them on because it was their first time ever fly fishing in their life on that trip. And they both caught trophy trophy fish. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna bring them back on at a later episode to kind of have that experience. And then also, Josh, I know. Josh, once the season gets done, we’re going to have him come on and talk about his perspective from the guides, you know, being a guide. And so we’re gonna have more on this, Paul and as we go, but let’s, let’s take it out of here real quick with our rapid fire round. We love doing this. We, we used to do the rapid fire back in the day, and we’ve taken a little hiatus, but we’re back to it. And, uh, and today, like we mentioned, we already gave a shout out to visit Saskatchewan and all of our great partners. So that’s the big shout out today. But tell me this, we’re going to zip through a few of these. First off, your favorite meal for the trip. Which one was it? 00:39:21 Paul: Oh man, they were all good. 00:39:23 Dave: Yeah. Is that too hard? 00:39:25 Paul: Yeah, that’s too hard. 00:39:26 Dave: Well let me. I’m going to say mine. Yeah, it is. Because if I put myself on the spot. Yeah. Because I would go back to the duck, which I haven’t had a lot of duck. The. Yeah. It was all. It’s pretty hard to just pick one isn’t it? 00:39:36 Paul: Yes. You know, I mean they were all so good. And um. Yeah, I can’t pick one. 00:39:42 Dave: That’s just hard. All right. These are good. These are rapid fire. These are good. Good. So what about your fly? Your favorite fly you use. Did you use one flyer. Was there one that you kind of, you know, got more fish? I know you’re using the white the white one quite a bit. 00:39:54 Paul: I used the white one with a red head on it. But fly that I really liked was that, uh, black bunny leach, that bunny leach, that black one seemed to catch a lot. It was a great flight. 00:40:06 Dave: That’s right. The bunny. And that worked really well for me, too. I feel like that bunny Leach. That’s the great thing about the black Bunny leach, is that you could use that for almost any species and do well. 00:40:15 Paul: Yeah, we use that. We use that consistently everywhere we went. We used it up at mosquito. The trout loved it. We used it at the on the other fly out and the three different places we fished with it on Scott Lake. They loved it. Remember we over at Premier Lake and Premier joined Scott Lake by a little channel. Yeah, it was great. 00:40:39 Dave: So yeah, yeah that’s great. And and one that Josh gave me that I used and I’ll have to find the name, but it was one of Gunnar Bremer’s flies. It was a big pike fly. It was, uh, it had some brown on it, you know, some brown. And it was. 00:40:52 Paul: I was a killer. 00:40:54 Dave: Wasn’t that great? 00:40:54 Paul: That was a killer. You know, I started to say, well, why don’t you give me one of them? Yeah, I was, I was right, I was jealous you were catching so many fish on that fly. So something we need to talk about. Uh, we were probably out of twenty four guys that were fishing. I would say that eight of us were fly fishermen. The rest of the guys were gear fishing, but we caught some fish every bit as big as the guys with the gear. And I would say we caught as many fish as the guys with fishing gear. So the lake could go either way. So I, I think that we did every bit as good as those guys did. 00:41:33 Dave: Yeah. Yeah, I agree, I think Mike or let’s see Mike and Dave. I think Dave got one that was up. Well he’s caught a forty eight incher. There was definitely people there because it was cool. That was one of the unique things about Scott Lake Lodge is that we’re sitting there at dinner and they come in and they do the photo shoot, right? They give a shout out to people, give away some pins. We got a bunch of pins, and they just basically do a highlight reel of what everybody caught. And it was it’s just a highlight reel of forty eight inch trophies all the way down to, like we said, forty twos, right? 00:42:01 Paul: Right. Correct. And you know, so I mean, we got we got trophies for because we caught a, a trophy fish on a fly. They might not have been as big as the ones on the gear guys because the gear guys consistently were up in the forty seven forty eight inch. But when we were catching forty two and forty four inch on a fly, we were every bit as good as those guys, if not better. 00:42:25 Dave: Oh yeah. Well, and it’s cool. I’m going to give a shout out to Shirley, who I don’t remember if we met at the Lodge, but she sent us an email afterwards. I’m not sure if you saw this, but they had a listing of all the fish we caught. And I’m just looking at it now. I mean, these fish are fish on Pike Range, like we said, forty. And these are just the trophies we caught, you know, three, four, five. Yeah. We caught like five fish over forty inches in that range. And then lake trout, we caught another five fish that were all in the thirty five inch range. And then we caught a whole slew of fifteen to twenty inch grayling. 00:42:57 Paul: Yeah. And that’s, that’s a trophy fish for grayling. Anywhere from fifteen to sixteen inches is considered trophy for Arctic grayling. 00:43:06 Dave: Right. And I’m just looking at the numbers. Yeah. Twenty point five, seventeen point five eighteen point five. So it was again it’s obviously a unique place all together. But yeah, I think like we said, the gunner Bremer, that was the pattern that worked well for me. Plus the leach. Well, let’s just take it out here, Paul. We’re going to get out here in a couple of minutes. But this is going to be probably a hard one as well. But when you think of one word to summarize, to sum up the experience at Scott Lake, could you think of one word or is that is that a little bit too hard? 00:43:31 Paul: Fantastic. Great life experience, but just just fantastic. 00:43:36 Dave: Yeah, fantastic. I would say mine would be remote. You know, I feel like the more, the harder it is to get to places. It seems to me that it’s always going to be almost always going to be a better trip. Right? Yeah. The fact that we had to take, you know, fly in from Edmonton to Stony Stony Rapids is barely an airport. It’s a landing strip, right? It’s just this little tiny kind of native village sort of thing. And then and then hop from there on to a, a van to just zoom over to the, you know, the lake hop on a float plane, float plane takes us off lands at Scott Lake. You know, we’re there. And then we fly out from Scott Lake out to even more remote tundra up north. I feel like that was a big part of the experience. 00:44:16 Paul: Yes. That flying out to both of the lakes we went to was a big part of the experience. It was a trip of a lifetime. 00:44:23 Dave: Yeah, well, take it away. We always love to get a few tips, you know, little tips. Like when you think about what Josh gave us and I can think of a few he gave me, well, one I’m going to say because we’ll talk about this with Josh, but you know, even down to like how to wrap the line over the rod to make sure it’s secure. Right. Little tips like that, but do you remember a tip or two that Josh gave you that helped you out that week? 00:44:43 Paul: Slow down, I guess. I was so excited, I was just whipping the fly line and I knew better, but I just, uh, as soon as I slowed down, I was, you know, and watch my back cast those two things. Slow down, watch your back cast. And I know that watch my back cast from using a Spey rod, but every good fly fisherman needs to watch their back cast. And then as long as you know where your back cast is going, your forward actions are going to go there. But yeah, um, Josh was a great, great guy. 00:45:16 Dave: Yeah. Likewise. And like we said, we’re going to have Josh on the podcast here. So everybody will get to hear directly from him. And, and you know what it is. And the cool thing is, is by the time he’s on, it’ll be towards the end of the season. So we’ll be able to hear some more stories on this. But yeah, Paul, I think we could probably leave it there. We will, uh, like we said, send everybody out to Scott Lake lodge dot com. And the cool thing too with us before we get out of here, you know, we made this connection. You know, you could have been anybody. But since you’re a steel header, we’re definitely going to be hooking up and putting together a trip. And I think even Jason might come down and maybe we’re going to find a great trip. So all three of us can come together for a steelhead trip. Are you excited for that? Do you think this is going to be doable? 00:45:52 Paul: I am, I think it’s doable and I’m looking forward to it. I mean, I don’t think you could find a nicer individual than Jason. He’s a very sincere, great person. Yeah. And I mean, he talked to us every day. He if he didn’t see us at breakfast, he would see us before we went out fishing, and he always saw us at night and would talk to us. Well, how was it today? And different things. And it’s not just because you and I were part of a giveaway. It’s part his sincerity. He wants people taken care of. 00:46:26 Dave: Yeah, he does. 00:46:26 Paul: And he’s he’s interested in people interested in their story. And everybody at the lodge was that way, though, you know, that’s true. The girls waiting on you, everybody, you know, uh, how was your day and what what happened and stuff, you know, from the girls that waited on us to the bartender, all of them. Everybody was fantastic. 00:46:46 Dave: It’s true. It’s true. Including the the people. I feel like the also, you get these places that, you know, when it’s that sort of person like Jason and the crew, they attract a certain type of person. Right? When you look at again, Julie and Carl, Mike, Dave, John, Arnie are kind of our little crew at our table there. You know what I mean? Like all those guys in Arnie. I mean, talk about a guy that is like, you know, we all sat down and talked with him. He. What a cool guy, right? 00:47:11 Paul: Yeah, eighty three years old and out there doing that and enjoying it. 00:47:14 Dave: Yeah. He had a good time. And they and they do one trip. That’s the great thing about Arnie and John. They do one trip a year and one fishing trip and this is it. And they. And John said, he’s like, man, I just love doing what my dad loves. So they, they meet together at this place once a year and they do it. You know what I mean? Like that’s pretty, that’s spectacular. 00:47:32 Paul: No that is yeah. And Dave and Mike take a look at them. This is one trip that they really love to do. And they’ve been fishing together since childhood. And I would say they’re in their sixties somewhere. I’m not sure. I never did. 00:47:47 Dave: I’m not even sure either. 00:47:48 Paul: But they’ve been this is a lifelong thing, and Dave can go anywhere he wants to fish. As long as Mike is there, that’s what. Right. That’s what it’s like. 00:47:58 Dave: That’s what the. That’s what the wives say. Yeah, that’s a pretty good. That’s pretty good. And then and then shout out again Julie and Carl. I mean, they, they are a little bit younger, but they’re they met in Mongolia, right? This last year, they met on a trip in Mongolia. Yeah. And Carl was like, I think Carl said to Julian. He was like, hey, you got to come out to Scott Lake. And they just put it together. 00:48:17 Paul: Yeah. And we were standing in the airport waiting for the plane in Seattle, and I had a rod case with me, fish pond rod case with me. And, uh, anyhow, Julian came to. Are you guys going fishing? Yes. And he said, where are you going? We said, Scott Lake. And he said, I am too. So I mean, our relationship started in the airport and then it went to the Renaissance, to the bar that night drinking. And we met Dave and Mike and Carl the next morning. And so it was just that started all our relationship. It was great. Then I met John. I started talking to him and then he I mean, this guy’s a wealth of knowledge on cars. If you want to know anything about a Lamborghini, a Porsche, a Ferrari, he goes back forty years on those cars. 00:49:09 Dave: Oh, he is an encyclopedia. 00:49:11 Paul: Yes. Yeah. Fascinating guy. 00:49:13 Dave: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. No, this is going to be a I think, again, these trips are what they they bring together as the people right out of. You got the fishing. The fishing is one hundred percent a huge, obviously huge. But the people that it brings together is kind of like the. You know what I mean? The icing I feel like on on the cake. 00:49:30 Paul: Take a look. We had those those two football players that. 00:49:33 Speaker 5: Were oh yeah. 00:49:34 Paul: NFL football players and their dads and their brother and an uncle that came over from England to fish with them. But it’s a yearly trip that they pretty much do. 00:49:45 Dave: Yeah, we had the football and they were to like, I think one of them had played like five or seven years in the NFL and they were giants, right? These guys were like six, nine. They were just huge human beings. 00:49:54 Paul: Yeah. I mean, I looked at them, I thought, you think I want to meet them on the line somewhere crazy. Yeah. One played for four years and the other played for I think eight. But yeah. Anyhow they were in. Nice, very nice individual. Their their dads were great. I enjoyed teasing with Mark. I mean, I’m kind of a big tease anyhow. And I enjoyed joking with some of the people and yeah, it was, it was great. 00:50:19 Dave: That’s right. This is awesome. Well, cool. Paul, I think we’ll leave it there for today. And like we said, we’ll send everybody out to Scott Lake Lodge dot com. They can also go to the show notes of this episode. Just click the link in the show notes, and you can look at some photos of I’ll have photos of you, Paul, and everybody on the trip. And um, yeah, man, until we reach out again on the steelhead trip. I’m excited to, uh, put that together and thanks for all your time today. 00:50:38 Paul: Thank you, I appreciate it. 00:50:41 Dave: Sometimes the best fishing memories aren’t just about the biggest fish. They’re about the people, the place, and the stories you bring home. Hope you enjoyed that one. You can tell we were both pretty excited. This is hot on our mind. Just getting off the plane this week. Uh, definitely never thought, uh, northern Pike as we had talked about it for years, finally getting up there and having this action. It was definitely another experience. The lake trout and grayling was really just like a big bonus on top of. It was just as amazing to be there and shout out to everyone, anybody we missed to. Definitely big shout out to you for putting this together. If you want to get access to some of our trips and giveaways and events, just send an email to Dave at web dot com. You can also go to webflow dot com slash pro. If you want to get access to Wet Fly Swing Pro, this is our membership community where we’re building trips, telling stories, connecting with the community, and it’s our liars den. If you want to get access to Wet Fly Spring Pro, check that out. Now, we do have a big event coming up here in a couple of weeks. Our Alaska Space school giveaway is coming up soon. If you want to get access in a shot to win a trip to the Alaska Space School at Togiak River Lodge, you can do that. If you want to get access to any trips, you can check in with me and let me know if you’re new to the podcast and have never said hi in person, please do that. Dave at web dot com. Uh, always love to hear new listeners. Or if you haven’t connected in a while, let me know what you’re enjoying about the show, what we can do better, and to make this thing great for you. All right. Appreciate it. One final thought. One final quote before we get out of here. This comes from Paul. He said it’s a four season quality lodge with the chance of catching trophy fish every single day. Paul Plum, shout out to you man. This is a great one. Shout out to all the crew that we talked to on this podcast. And thanks again for you. I hope you are having a great day. I hope you’re having a great evening. Or if it’s morning. Hope you’re getting ready for a big day on the water or planning for that big day on the water. And we will be excited to talk to you and see you on that next episode. Talk to you then. 00:52:41 Outro: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly dot com.
trophy pike

Conclusion with Paul Plum on Trophy Pike and Trout Fishing at Scott Lake Lodge

This trip reminded me that the best fishing adventures aren’t measured only by trophy fish. They’re measured by shared meals, unforgettable places, great guides, and the people sitting around the dinner table each night swapping stories.

Scott Lake Lodge delivered all of that and more, and it’s a place I’ll be thinking about for a long time.

     

963 | Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta

Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta

Big predator flies are built for explosive strikes, brutal fights, and anglers who live for the hunt.

From striped bass on Long Island to peacock bass in the Amazon, Max Rivetta has spent years tying flies for predator fish. As the in-house fly tyer and host of Moccasin Fly Club, he shares the techniques, materials, and lessons he’s learned along the way.

We cover Bob Popovics’ influence on modern fly design, choosing high-quality bucktail, preparing for destination trips, and why connecting with other fly tyers is one of the fastest ways to improve your skills.

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Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta

Show Notes with Max Rivetta on Big Predator Flies

Max Rivetta has been tying flies for just over two years, but he’s already making a name for himself with big predator patterns inspired by Bob Popovics’ techniques. We talk about his rapid progression as a fly tier, his work with Moccasin Fly Club, destination fishing around the world, and why simple materials like quality bucktail can make all the difference.

From Fly Tying Beginnings to Big Predator Flies

(01:26) Max Rivetta’s journey into fly tying started just over two years ago with a desire to become more connected to the fish he was chasing. What started with YouTube videos, books, and countless hours at the vise quickly grew into a passion for creating large predator flies designed for aggressive fish.

Max ties big streamers for species like pike, musky, striped bass, and other hard-fighting predators. He shares how Bob Popovics influenced his tying style, the lessons he has learned from building large patterns, and why understanding materials is essential to creating flies that truly perform on the water.

From his journey with Moccasin Fly Club to becoming the club’s in-house fly tyer, Max shares the experiences that shaped his approach to fly tying. He talks about how an Alaska trip connected him with John, along with unforgettable adventures chasing species like giant trevally and other saltwater predators.

Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta

Chasing Peacock Bass Through the Amazon

(05:59) Brazil quickly became one of Max’s favorite fishing destinations. After his first trip, he knew he wanted to return, and he credits Moccasin Fly Club for making the experience seamless with great guides, accommodations, and organization.

On one October trip, eight anglers landed around 1,500 fish in five days. Max and his partner even had a 101-fish day, including catching 75 peacock bass in just 45 minutes.

The Amazon offered more than peacock bass. Max also encountered piranha, bicuda, apapá, and arapaima. One unforgettable moment came when a 5½-foot arapaima surfaced beside the boat, giving him a close-up view of a fish he had only seen on River Monsters.

Max explains why peacock bass are such exciting game fish. They strike flies aggressively, fight well above their size, and often dive straight into flooded timber. Fish over 65 centimeters are considered trophies, and Max’s largest measured 70 centimeters.

Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta

Life on the Amazon Mothership

(15:22) Max says one of the biggest surprises in Brazil was the mothership. Instead of roughing it in the jungle, anglers stay aboard a 125-foot, three-story boat that feels more like a floating hotel. Each room includes two beds, a private bathroom, and air conditioning, while the boat also features a dining area, an outdoor bar, chef-prepared meals, laundry service, and daily housekeeping.

A typical day begins with breakfast before heading out around 6:00 a.m. Guides provide packed lunches on the water, and anglers return in the afternoon for cocktails, snacks, and dinner. Max also says the trip is hassle-free, with airport pickup in Manaus and seamless logistics from start to finish. He also shares details about his upcoming hosted Brazil trip, scheduled for November 28–December 5, 2028. The trip is limited to 8–10 anglers and costs $5,500 per person, including lodging, meals, guided fishing, mothership accommodations, laundry service, and airport transportation.

The Flies, Bob Popovics, and Why Bucktail Still Wins

(17:26) Bob Popovics’ fly designs have had a major influence on Max’s fly tying. Many of the patterns he relies on are based on Bob’s techniques, including the Hollow Fly, Semper Fly, and Beast Fly. Bob Popovics’ techniques and fly designs are featured in Fleye Design by Bob Popovics and Jay Nichols.

The white-and-red Semper Fly was Max’s top producer in Brazil, landing his personal-best peacock bass along with several other trophy fish. Hollow Flies tied in juvenile peacock colors and Wonderbread patterns also produced consistently throughout the trip.

Max explains that peacock bass respond more to a fly’s profile and movement than to imitating a specific baitfish. Because they are aggressive predators that even feed on their own young, juvenile peacock patterns can be especially effective.

Max also shares why Bob Popovics’ designs continue to influence modern predator fly tying. By combining hollow tying, reverse bulkheads, and bucktail, Bob created large baitfish profiles that remain lightweight and easy to cast. Built with simple materials like bucktail, feathers, and flash, these flies continue to catch everything from striped bass and pike to giant trevally and Amazon peacock bass.

Watch the “Remembering Bob Popovics, a Fly Tying Legend” video below.

Mexico’s Double Haul Tournament and Preparing Flies for Destination Trips

(21:15) Max shares what’s ahead with Moccasin Fly Club and how he prepares flies for the different fisheries he visits. When hosting trips, he brings a variety of patterns so anglers are prepared for changing conditions and different target species.

His upcoming adventures include the Mexico Double Haul Tournament, a hosted Louisiana redfish trip, another peacock bass trip to Brazil, and a future Patagonia, Argentina trip during the dragonfly hatch.

For the Mexico tournament, Max explains how he and his teammate Levi divide their fly-tying duties. Levi will focus on crab and shrimp patterns for permit and bonefish, while Max prepares predator flies for tarpon and jack crevalle, including tarpon toads, worms, Feather Bugs, Hollow Flies, and Semper Flies. He shares how successful destination fishing starts with choosing the right patterns for the fishery, conditions, and species being targeted.

Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta

Max’s Alaska June Slam and Long Island Fishing

(29:02) Max shares his Alaska trip to the Kenai Peninsula, where he chased the “June Slam” by trying to catch seven different species on the fly. He came close, landing six of the seven:

  • Dolly Varden
  • Arctic char
  • Lake trout
  • Arctic grayling
  • Rainbow trout
  • Chinook salmon

The only fish missing was northern pike. June brought excellent fishing conditions, and one of Max’s biggest surprises was the endless daylight. Walking outside at 11 p.m. and still seeing the sun meant more time on the water.

Back on Long Island, Max enjoys fishing both saltwater and freshwater. One of his most memorable catches was a rare sea-run brook trout that the local hatchery said was the first they had seen in about 15 years.

Looking ahead, Max hopes to make a trip to Canada to swing flies for Atlantic salmon, an adventure he and his friends have been planning for a while.

Learning Fly Tying Through Community and Connection

(39:48) Max shares how connecting with other fly tyers helped him improve his skills and become a better tier. When he first started, he learned through YouTube videos, books, and plenty of practice, but his biggest growth came from reaching out to experienced tyers and learning from the fly fishing community.

At first, Max was hesitant because he didn’t want to bother people or feel like he was only asking for free advice. He soon realized that many people in the tying community are eager to share their knowledge and help others improve.

“Ninety percent of people in the tying community are very eager to share and help out.”

Through those connections, Max built friendships with tyers he admired, including Matt Bailey, Andre from South Africa, Bucktail Flies, and August on the Fly. Their advice, techniques, and resources helped shape his approach to fly tying.

Max’s advice for new fly tyers is simple: ask questions, reach out, and connect with others in the community. He also recommends studying the work of influential designers like Bob Popovics to better understand fly design and tying techniques.

Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta

Fly Tying Is a Craft That Never Ends

(42:19) Even after becoming the in-house fly tyer at Moccasin Fly Club, Max still considers himself a student. He believes fly tying is a craft you’ll never fully master because every fly, material, and technique offers something new to learn.

“You’re never going to learn everything. There’s so much knowledge out there and there’s so much improvement.”

Max explained that even small changes to a fly can affect how it swims, making experimentation one of the most rewarding parts of tying. He also shared his go-to saltwater patterns, the Hollow Fleye and the Semper Fleye, and encouraged fly tyers to be selective when choosing bucktail. Instead of relying on trial and error, he recommends watching a few videos on bucktail grading and doing a little research before buying materials to save both money and frustration.

Watch the video below to learn Bob Popovics’ Hollow Fleye technique.

Why the Trip Starts Long Before You Leave Home

(47:37) For Max, destination fishing begins long before boarding a plane. The excitement starts the day he books the trip, followed by months of tying flies, organizing gear, and counting down until departure.

“You can always make more money. You cannot make more time.”

Inspired by watching River Monsters as a kid, Max says traveling to fish became a dream that only grew stronger after his first destination trip. Now, he plans much of his year around the next adventure.

His advice for anyone thinking about booking a trip is simple: “Just go.” It’s easy to second-guess the cost or wonder if it’s worth it, but the memories, friendships, and experiences make every trip worthwhile. Spend less time worrying about gear and more time enjoying the experience.

Watch the Official River Monsters Channel Trailer below.

About Max Rivetta

About Max Rivetta Max Rivetta is a fly tyer, destination angler, and trip host with Moccasin Fly Club. Based on Long Island, New York, he specializes in tying large predator flies for species like striped bass, peacock bass, pike, musky, giant trevally, and bluefish.

Inspired by Bob Popovics’ hollow-fly techniques, Max has quickly developed a reputation for creating effective flies and helping anglers prepare for destination fishing adventures. He also hosts and supports Moccasin Fly Club trips to Brazil, Louisiana, and Patagonia, where he enjoys sharing knowledge, building confidence, and helping others succeed both at the vise and on the water.

Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta
Photo via https://moccasinflyclub.com/

Connect with Max Rivetta

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/predator_prey_flies_/

This episode is brought to you by Moccasin Fly Club. Check them out here:

Website: https://moccasinflyclub.com/home

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/moccasinflyclub/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MoccasinFlyClub/

 Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta

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Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
WFS 963 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: Today we’re talking with a fly tire whose entire world revolves around big predators, big flies, and the destinations that put them to the test. From striped bass on Long Island to peacock bass in the Amazon, Max Rivera has built his fly, tying around fish that hit hard and don’t give second chances. Max is the in-house fly tyer and host with Max and Fly Club, and today he’s sharing the flies he trusts most and the trips he’s most excited about this year. Plus, we’re gonna find out why reaching out to other Fly Tyers is your best shot at leveling up your game. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where we show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Today, Max is going to get into his fly design and why Bob Popovics is still a huge influence to him and tires around the world. We’re gonna find out about Bucktail, why and how to find great Bucktail and why. This really makes a big difference in tying these saltwater flies. We’re also going to get some tips in how Max prepares for destination trips and packing all the way down to fly selection. If you ever wanted to tie bigger flies, chase bigger fish, or start planning that destination trip you’ve been thinking about for years, you’re going to enjoy this conversation. You can find Max on Instagram at Predator Prey Flies, and you can also check in with him at Moccasin Flight club dot com. All right, let’s get into it. Here he is. Max Rivera. How you doing, Max? 00:01:24 Max: Hey, how’s it going, Dave? All’s good on my end. How about you? 00:01:26 Dave: Great, great. Yeah, yeah, I’m excited to talk about some predator flies. We’re. We’re actually heading up for a trip here this summer to fish for Pike. And, you know, I’m not sure if that’s a species that you tie for, but you tie a lot of flies specifically, and especially for Max and Fly Club. We’ve been working with John, put some stuff together, so we’re going to talk about that. Some of the flies you tie, we’re going to talk about some of the travel that you’re going on. I know you’ve got a trip to Brazil and some other things going on around the world, so we’re going to talk about that today, but maybe take us back into fly tying. I’d love to hear it. Sounds like you’re tying. That’s a big part of what you do. Uh, how’d you, uh, how’d you get into this? Have you been doing this a while, or is this newer for you? 00:02:04 Max: So with the fly tying specifically. I’m pretty green in the grand scheme of things. I’ve only been tying for just a little bit over two years. And how that kind of came through is that obviously, you know, us as fly fishermen specifically, we tend to find ourselves very much, um, in contact with the fish that we’re chasing. Um, and to me, the next best thing to get me even closer to the fish was to tie the flies myself. Um, and that kind of led to a spiral of, uh, YouTube videos, books, and, uh, a lot of late nights. And, uh, now we tie flies. 00:02:41 Dave: There you go. There you go. No, I think it’s awesome. I think the that’s always the cool thing. It depends on how much effort you want to put into it. You know, I think that, you know, if you want to go all in and do like you’re doing, you know, you can kind of level up pretty quick, right? Do it. And do you focus on, uh, you know, specific types of patterns or do you kind of tie everything? 00:03:01 Max: Um, so I mean, I will tie everything, but my main jam is definitely going to be bigger streamer stuff for more predatory fish. Hence kind of where the name predator prey flies comes from. So I do mainly focus on like big streamers and stuff around that, uh, parameter, you know, anything I would say the smallest thing I’m tying is usually like, uh, three, four inches long all the way up to twelve fifteen inches, you know, for even for some of those, um, species that you’re going to chase, you know, like the, um, uh, the, what would you say the pike or pike? Pike. Yeah. Even some big pike flies, big musky flies, Buford’s, you know, a lot of bucktail work, big stuff. 00:03:42 Dave: Yeah. So basically the predator predator flies are your kind of, uh, go to what are the top, you know, if you say like main species that you’re tying for, for predators, what does that look like? 00:03:54 Max: Uh, the main species that I’m tying for would probably be a lot of. Here in the northeast there’s a lot of striper fishermen, bluefish, fishermen. So we’re tying a lot of flies for that. Obviously, we have Bob Popovics, you know, from the northeast, which is a huge influence on what I do and on the tying community. So a lot of what I tie is Bob’s patterns. Um, and those are mainly used for striped bass here in the northeast. Again, bluefish, um, a lot of guys using them for pike and muskie. And I do a ton of orders for G.T. flies. 00:04:27 Dave: And GT’s for people going for specifically, what is the main GT trip do you think people are hitting? 00:04:33 Max: I think a lot of people are hitting the Seychelles, Christmas Island, stuff like that. You know, you got Oman now, um, which is something that we’re offering through Moccasin Fly Club. So, you know, we’re, uh, we’re reaching out and touching those areas too now. And yeah, I mean, that’s a big, uh, bad predator fish that a lot of people are interested in. And, uh, they will smoke you through a few flies. 00:04:55 Dave: So nice. Um, how did you. So moccasin is, uh, you know, John is doing some good stuff out there. How did you first connect with Moccasin Fight Club? 00:05:05 Max: So I connected with John via a mutual friend that I met over in Alaska. Um, which was my first kind of, uh, destination fly fishing trip. 00:05:15 Dave: Mhm. 00:05:16 Max: Um, me and, uh, this mutual friend Joel happened to be sitting on a dock, getting ready to take one of the, uh, little bush planes out to go fishing. And he was talking to somebody about GT fishing, and I was talking to somebody else about GT fishing, and our conversations kind of intertwined. Me and him became very good friends. He introduced me to John. I made my way down to Brazil. And, uh, from there it evolved into me, uh, being the in-house tire for moccasin and being a host and getting to, uh, kind of enjoy these international trips with new people and show them all of these awesome places and awesome species that we’re able to go and, and fish for. 00:05:59 Dave: Amazing. And what was the so you did the Brazil trip. Maybe we can start on that one a little bit. And we’re going to kind of bounce back and forth on the tying. But what was the maybe describe that Brazil. Was that your first time down there and what was that trip like? 00:06:11 Max: It was my first time down there and um, I’m going down two more times already. So nice. It’s amazing down there. It’s an awesome program that moccasin has put together. The accommodations, the fishing, the people that were with down there. Um, there’s really nothing bad to say about it from start to finish from when you get to Brazil, uh, getting to the river, getting on the mothership that we’re going to be staying on, meeting the people, working the mothership. It’s all very, very seamless, beautiful experience. The fishing down there is absolutely insane. Um, we were down there in October of twenty five eight anglers, fifteen hundred fish over the course of five days of fishing. 00:06:59 Dave: Wow. 00:07:00 Max: Um, so it’s a lot. You know, we had me and my buddy who came down with me. We had a one hundred and one fish day. 00:07:07 Dave: Right. And these are all peacock bass. 00:07:09 Max: All peacock bass. I mean, there’s some bycatch. You know, there’s a couple guys caught piranhas. Oh, wow. A few different. Yeah. There’s a few different species down there that you can catch. So the bycatch would be piranhas, which is kind of like the best way that I could describe that is almost like an Amazon Barracuda. Okay. It’s a long slender tapered nose fish. Um, they have this other fish that’s called an A Papa, which is kind of like an arowana, but it’s blind. 00:07:35 Dave: Wow. Blind. Completely blind. 00:07:37 Max: Yeah. Completely blind. Yeah. Um, you pull it out of the water and its eyes just look like. 00:07:42 Dave: How does it how does it find your fly? 00:07:44 Max: I think it’s a sensory thing. Yeah. From, you know, I’m not the best Portuguese speaker, but from what I was gathering, uh, with my Spanish and the Portuguese from the guides there. It’s a sensory thing because you pull the fish out of the water and its eyes look like crystal balls. You know, there’s like, like voids, you know? 00:08:02 Dave: Dang. What’s that one called? That’s the barracuda looking fish. 00:08:05 Max: No, that one’s called, so I. And it’s weird. I have not been able to find the English version of the name. What they call it in, uh, in Brazil is, uh. Papa. 00:08:16 Dave: Papa. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 00:08:18 Max: It’s. And again, it kind of looks like an arowana would be like the closest thing that I could compare it to, but it doesn’t have that, um, that weird jaw that like an arowana has. 00:08:30 Dave: Yeah. Gotcha. 00:08:31 Max: But it’s a really cool species. Really cool species. 00:08:35 Dave: Amazing. 00:08:35 Max: And of course, there’s, there’s the chance to catch an arapaima down there if. 00:08:40 Dave: Oh, and. 00:08:41 Max: Yeah, if you happen to cross paths with one, um, don’t choke like I did because I did cross paths with one and froze up. 00:08:50 Dave: You did. What was that? So the timer, the giant fish, right? 00:08:54 Max: Yeah, the arapaima, the giant, giant fish. So they actually come up to the surface of the water to breathe air. Yeah. And then they go back down. Uh, once they go back down, it’s almost impossible to see them or target them specifically just because of how deep the water is there and how, um, intricate the underwater system is over there. But if they happen to come up and roll to get air and you can make a shot at them and, you know, get them in the right mood, they will hit. And, uh, that’s my dream fish. Ever since I saw Jeremy Wade catch one when I was a little kid. 00:09:29 Dave: Right. 00:09:30 Max: And, uh, we were sitting on the tracker boat just putting to a new spot and like, uh, five and a half foot arapaima came up and rolled at the side of the boat. And I looked at the guide and I was like, they call it in Brazil a pirarucu, which means red tail, because they have that nice design on the red tail. So I turned to the guide and I said, look, a pirarucu. And he turned to me and he’s like, cast at it. 00:09:51 Dave: Yeah. Wow. 00:09:53 Max: By the time I fumbled with my gear, he had went back down too late. But yeah, too late. But they’re there. You know, it’s a possibility. Wow. 00:10:01 Dave: So yeah. So you could probably target maybe just go out for the day, could you for arapaima. 00:10:06 Max: Only if you depending on what the water levels are and stuff like that. If you talk to the guide about it, you could entice them to go specifically for the Arapaima. The main reason why they don’t offer it as a specific target species is just because of how hard it is to actually locate and find them. Yeah. Um, you know, the peacock bass, um, Tucumcari, what they call them down in Brazil, which is friend of the tree. Um, the peacock bass is much more all over the place. It’s way less elusive, you know what I mean? That the waters are so filled with them at so many different sizes. I mean, the day that we had the one hundred and one fish bag. We caught seventy five of those fish in forty five minutes. 00:10:53 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:10:54 Max: It was just a crazy blitz of all juvenile size fish. The guide put the boat at the tip of a point and set the trolling motor and just drag the boat down the whole point. And it was every cast immediately in the water. Fish was coming up and smacking. And they’re aggressive. You know, they’re aggressive even at small sizes. They’re aggressive. They’re jumping out of the water. They’re flipping around pulling drag. So they’re it’s a fun fish at any size. If you get the opportunity to catch one, that’s a trophy size, which down there, the guides will say anything over sixty five centimetres, um, is going to be a trophy size. 00:11:31 Dave: How many inches is that? 00:11:33 Max: Sixty five centimeters is like, uh, twenty two, twenty three inches, I believe. 00:11:39 Dave: Okay. Yeah. So anything over twenty three? 00:11:42 Max: Yeah, something in that range, I don’t know exactly. I know that my biggest down there was Seventy centimetres and that was twenty seven point nine inches. So anything you know, five centimeters is two inches. So yeah, twenty five inches I would say is where your yeah, your trophy size is at. And that’s a whole nother game. You know, it goes from one type of fighting style to another type of fighting style. And they’re, they’re bulldogs, man. They’re very fast. They are gonna drag you back into the trees. That’s why they call them the Tucumcari, the friend of the tree, because they immediately go to the trees. It’s a fun fight, but the guides are great down there, man. If you get a fish and he gets tangled in the trees, they will jump into that river and swim into the trees and pull your fish out of there. 00:12:29 Dave: They will. Wow. 00:12:30 Max: They will. Yeah. 00:12:31 Dave: That’s great. What’s the what’s the flies? Your tie in for the peacocks? 00:12:35 Max: Uh, so it was a lot of hollow flies. Bob Popovics hollow flies. We did like, um, a juvenile peacock colorway and then like a Wonderbread colorway. Um, they were loving those. And then the best fly for the whole week down there was again another Bob Popovics pattern, the Semper Fi in, uh, white and red. That was the, um, the money maker for the week. That’s what I call my PB on. That’s what I was using the day we had the, the big bag. Um, and a lot of other people caught some pretty big trophy sized fish on that, uh, that fly. But you know, Semper flies, uh, hollow flies. We threw a couple beasts down there. Um, you know, anything that’s looking like a small bait fish that’s got good movement, um, they’re going to hit it because they’re hungry and they’re aggressive. 00:13:23 Dave: Wow. So that’s the Brazil trip and you’re doing that sounds like you’re going to be doing another one of those, uh, or at least a couple more of those coming up here. What’s the timing? Uh, when are you going on those trips? 00:13:33 Max: Uh, so we are leaving December twenty sixth of. Oh, no. Sorry. Uh, November twenty, uh, November thirtieth of twenty twenty seven to December seventh. That trip is fully booked with ten people already. Um, but we’re repeating that same trip in twenty twenty eight, and that’s going to be November twenty eighth to December fifth, twenty twenty eight. Um, that trip runs five thousand five hundred dollars per angler. Uh, we can host up to ten minimum of eight. Um, that price includes your lodging for the week, your fishing, your food. Mhm. A laundry service, a cleaning service because we are on a mothership transfer. Yeah. Transportation from the airport to the river, uh, and back. So basically, aside from your flight to Brazil and your gear, that five thousand five hundred dollars gets you squared away for the whole trip. 00:14:28 Dave: It does. And what airport are you flying into? 00:14:30 Max: Um, we flying to Manaus. 00:14:32 Dave: Manaus. Okay. That’s and that’s just in Brazil. 00:14:35 Max: That’s like. So Manaus is the capital of Amazonia in Brazil. So yeah, we’ll fly into Manaus airport and then a brand new. They just finished building it last year. A brand new kind of touring bus will come and pick us up from the airport that same night, all of us. And then it’s about, uh, four or five hour bus ride right to the river. And the mothership meets us right at the river. And then we’re on the boat for the next five days, six days, depending on what day we land, because it’s a Tuesday to Tuesday trip. Um, so sometimes we stay a half day on the river on the sixth day. Sometimes we don’t. But then that boat will come back to the same spot where the bus dropped us off. Bus will pick us up again and bring us right to the airport. And, uh, off you go. 00:15:22 Dave: There you go. What’s it like? Uh, what’s the mothership like? Uh, kind of living on the mothership. 00:15:27 Max: The mothership is awesome. It’s like a five star hotel in the middle of the Amazon jungle. Honestly, um, you got two. The setup is, uh, two people per room. Each room has two beds and a private bathroom. Air conditioning unit. Um, the whole boat is air conditioned inside, but each bedroom has its own air conditioning. So you got your bunk up with a mate. You have a personal bathroom in there? Uh, that’s on the we’ll call it the main level of the boat. Then you have two upper levels. 00:15:56 Dave: Oh, wow. So this is like a three story, three story. 00:15:58 Max: It’s a three story. I think it’s one hundred and twenty five foot long boat, if I remember. 00:16:02 Dave: Where would you see? Where would you see? Could you see a photo of what this looks like? 00:16:06 Max: Oh yeah. Absolutely. If you go on uh, the Moccasin Fly Club Instagram or my Instagram, we both have pictures of the ship up there. 00:16:13 Dave: Oh you do? Okay. 00:16:14 Max: Yeah, yeah. So you got the first floor with all the beds in it. The second floor is going to be they have like a TV gaming room and an outdoor bar. Um, and then the third floor is a, you know, open to the sky. That’s where we’ll do dinner, um, one or two nights a week. Um, and then again, you have a full chef staff on the boat twenty four over seven. Um, they make you three meals a day, wake up, call the manager of the boat will come and knock on everybody’s door, wake you up, go down for breakfast, get you a packed lunch for the day and six o’clock. You’re on the water until five o’clock, usually like four or five o’clock in the afternoon. You get back to the boat. The crew’s waiting there with cocktails for you and snacks you get on, have a cocktail, have a snack, wash up, dinner served. So it’s a very, very seamless and organized process that they have going on there. That makes it very easy to just focus on the fishing and not have to worry about what am I eating? Um, is my, are my clothes gonna be clean? I need to make my bed. I need to clean my room. They take care of all that for you. You’re there to fish and to enjoy the Amazon. 00:17:25 Dave: That’s awesome. 00:17:26 Max: Essentially. 00:17:26 Dave: Yeah. That’s sweet. What is it about, uh, Bob Popovics flies that are so, uh, you know what I mean? It seems like he’s got something going there. I mean, I know there’s a lot of other types of flyers, other tires out there, but what is it unique about his style? 00:17:41 Max: I think what is super unique about his style and what kind of drives a lot of people to try those, is that he’s, you know, what he was able to do was achieve such a big, broad profile of a baitfish and still maintain the castability and the ease of fishing in that profile without sacrificing one or the other. The way that he was able to, um, incorporate these various time techniques of hollow tying and reverse bulkheads and whatnot to build profile and taper with just bucktail, which is a very light material that’s easy to cast and wicks water. Well. And so it’s, it’s, it’s a culmination of a few different things. You have the, the good material selection that he had, the good tying style, the profile that he was able to create. And that kind of just led to a very large platform of innovation that everybody has been able to base off of or, or tweak off of. 00:18:45 Dave: Is the basic style. It’s basically bucktail. And then just and then the technique is just, I mean, yeah, it’s a unique looking fly, but it starts with Bucktail. Most of his flies have Bucktail. 00:18:55 Max: It starts with Bucktail. Yeah. Everything. Pretty much everything starts with Bucktail. The main patterns that I tie of his are again, the Hollow, the beast and the Semper Fly. And they all start with Bucktail. Um, the hollow and the Semper are very similar. Um, I mean, sorry, the hollow and the beast are very similar. I would say the main difference between the two is that one has the long mono extension off of the hook, which is the beast to get that really long, really tall profile. Um, and the hollow doesn’t have that mono extension, but you can still achieve a very long, uh, big profile, um, on that platform, all based off of the hollow tie with the bucktail. Um, so you get a couple bucktails, you get a couple chicken feathers. 00:19:41 Dave: You’re good. 00:19:41 Max: To go. 00:19:42 Dave: Some little. 00:19:42 Max: Flashy stuff. Yeah. And you’re good to go. Yeah. 00:19:45 Dave: What? What is the species wise? Are there just a ton of, uh, minnow species that you’re imitating down there, or do you have a specific one for Brazil? 00:19:53 Max: Um, for Brazil? No, there isn’t a specific one when it comes to the hollows. I think we found that the juvenile peacock colorway worked the best. So like, you know, a green kind of like a darker green color with hints of yellow and red. Um, being that they are such an aggressive fish and they are a cichlid. You know, that’s one thing that I don’t know. 00:20:16 Dave: Oh yeah. 00:20:16 Max: They’re a knowledge or or what, but you know, it’s peacock bass, but it is a cichlid. It’s not. 00:20:21 Dave: A bass. It’s not in the same. 00:20:22 Max: It’s not a bass. Yeah. And they are cannibalistic fish. So they will eat their fry. They will eat their young. Um, so having a fly that looks like a baby version of itself and making, you know, fishing it in the right way that you’re making it look wounded or weak. They’re going to hit on that. They’re very, um, opportunistic fish. And then again the red Semper Fly. So I don’t I’m gonna be honest, I don’t think that color is a huge determining factor down there. I think that given the fact that it’s not pressured waters, that plays huge into it. Obviously, right off the bat, they haven’t seen a lot of stuff. So they’re gonna hit a lot of stuff. But the sole aggressivity of the fish, if you got that profile right and you got the size right, they’re gonna hit it. I don’t think color is something that they’re too concerned about. 00:21:15 Dave: Yeah, that makes sense. Wow. This is cool. So so you got the so the trip coming up here, uh, is on the Brazil. Talk about some of the other trips you got going with moccasin. You’ve got and you’re tying maybe, and you’re pretty much tying for all the trips that you’re going on here. 00:21:29 Max: Yeah. So any trip that I host, I will be tying for. Um, so if you happen to come on a trip that I’m hosting and you don’t know what to bring, or you don’t have the right stuff, or you’re concerned about what you have. Rest assured that I’ll probably have one hundred flies with me, that you’re more than welcome to use. Yeah. Um, right. But as of right now, I. My next trip is, um, the double hole tournament in Mexico. I’m not hosting that. I’m actually, uh, participating in the tournament that’s this September. Um, and that’s something that moccasin, I believe this is either the second or third year that we’re doing this. 00:22:08 Dave: Yeah, we’ve heard about that. This is a cool trip. I, and I know we just got off of an Atlantic salmon trip and, uh, and Mike, uh, shout out to Mike. He was one of the guests who was on the trip. I think he’s going to be on the double haul and, and Mike’s awesome. He’s down out of, uh, Texas. But yeah, talk about that a little bit. I know John described that a little bit, but this is kind of a fun event, right? Where there’s like a kind of like a contest, a fun contest. 00:22:31 Max: Yeah, yeah. So it’s a cool, you know, it’s a cool tournament that John put together. Um, it’s five days of fishing, two days of quote unquote practice to get you locked in with your guide that you’re given for the week. And then you got three days of tournament fishing. The tournament fishing is it’s, it’s a moccasin tournament. Yeah. Um, so, you know, it’s something that John is putting together. Um, there’s going to be trophies for biggest fish, most points, species specific and whatnot. So it gives a little bit of that. Um, it adds that competitive edge into the fishing, which I think a lot of us as fishermen already have in ourselves. Um, so when you put tournament on something, it kind of gets us all excited. I mean, it gets me excited. Yeah. So it’s a cool program and you know, the price is really, really good. Um, you know, for what you’re getting, it’s three thousand four hundred dollars down there for five days of fishing, lodging. So it’s a really good program. Um, you know, the people down there, this will be my first time down there, but I mean. 00:23:33 Dave: Where is this at? Where’s the location? 00:23:35 Speaker 4: Ish. Galak. 00:23:35 Dave: Yeah. That’s right. 00:23:37 Speaker 4: Ish. 00:23:37 Max: Yep. So I haven’t been. But I’ve met a couple of the guys from down there, the owner of the lodge that we stay at and some of the guides, and they’re all awesome people from, from the experiences that I’ve had with them and from what John has told me. Yeah. So I’m very much looking forward to that. And this is a yearly trip. Um, I believe there’s talks about doing a, another version of this possibly over in um Oman. 00:24:01 Dave: Oman. 00:24:01 Max: Um, yes. So the species target is tarpon and permit. So I think over there it would be permit and gt. 00:24:08 Dave: Oh cool. 00:24:09 Max: Don’t quote me on that. I think it’s happening. 00:24:12 Dave: That’s awesome. So Tarpon and permit that which is great about that is that you know, when you talk about two species that are not the easiest fish to catch, you know, these are two of them. What are your thoughts there? Have you have you had a chance at either of those species? 00:24:25 Max: So I have not had a chance at either of those species. Um I have this will be my second time doing the, uh, bow front sight casting style of saltwater fly fishing. The first time I did it was down in Louisiana. Oh yeah, for redfish. And it kind of, um, it’s kind of like drugs, if I gotta be honest with you. You know, it’s it’s it was very new to me because it was the first time that I had done it. And it got me, no pun intended, hook, line and sinker. Yeah. It is the adrenaline rush of that team dynamic with your guide, um, where you could be having a normal conversation about football and then, you know, all of a sudden out of nowhere, the guides like, you know, eleven o’clock, thirty feet out, the adrenaline comes. And even if you fumble the fish, it’s just the whole process of it is very, um, very adrenaline fueled. And I, I love that. So I’m only assuming that Mexico is gonna be even more intense than that because the fish are harder to target than the redfish. Right. Um, so I’m very, very, very much looking forward to that. You got down there in Mexico. We’re going to have the the tarpon, the permit bonefish, Jack Cavalli, um, which I know a lot of people aren’t big fans of, but I am. 00:25:44 Dave: Yeah of course. I think we’re you know, the way I see it is that I think a lot of the podcast listeners are like this. It’s like all the species are great, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, everything. I don’t care what it is. It’s just because you’re catching a diversity. I mean, you know what I mean? How can you not enjoy catching some new fish? 00:26:01 Max: Absolutely, absolutely. And especially when you’re talking about big fish, big rods, big flies. You know, it’s again, that adrenaline starts churning and you just get very in tune to what’s happening. And, um, it’s awesome man. It’s going to be a great time. It’s awesome that, you know, John and Moccasin are able to put these things together. Yeah, it’s an honor that I’m able to be involved in the process and part of the team and get to experience these things and go to all of these awesome places. Um, so yeah, I’m very much looking forward to it. 00:26:32 Dave: That’s cool. So that’s a double haul. And then the double haul. What are you going to be. What flies are you going to be tying for that trip? 00:26:37 Max: Uh double haul is going to be a little bit different for me, you know, because the fish are eating not fifteen inch flies. Um, so my partner that I’m going to be fishing with, uh, shout out to Levi. Um, he is going to be taking care of all of the shrimp and crab style flies for the boat race and the permit. And I am gonna be tying all of the flies for the tarpon and the jack. Um, you know, tarpon flies. I’m going to be doing some tarpon toads, a couple weird ideas that I came up with myself. We’ll see how they come up with. But for the tarpon, it’s going to be primarily the main stuff that they’re throwing tarpon, toads, worms, you know, little feather bugs, maybe some smaller Semper flies. You know, we might try and put together a couple, four or five inch hollows just in case they’re running on mullet. And you know, we can get into that. Um, but yeah, for the permit and bones, it’s obviously going to be the crab stuff floating crab, sinking crab, shrimp patterns and stuff like that. 00:27:35 Dave: Awesome. So double haul. So you’ve got that coming. And then talk about some other things that you got in the horizon, some other trips that you’re going to be tying for. 00:27:43 Max: I have another trip that I’ll be hosting in February of, uh, this, this coming February. February eleventh to February fourteenth. That is in Louisiana for the redfish. 00:27:55 Dave: Oh, cool. So you’re going back for redfish. 00:27:57 Max: Yep. Going back for redfish. We have I got five openings available on that trip. That’s a two thousand seven hundred dollars trip for three days of fishing three nights of lodging. Um, and that’s an awesome program. Louisiana’s great redfish are awesome, you know, um, so that’s the next one after the double haul. Then from there we go into Brazil. Um, and then I have the end of twenty twenty seven. I have a trip that I’m going to be hosting from December sixth to January first in Argentina. Um, for the dragonfly hatch down in Patagonia. 00:28:33 Dave: Oh, yeah. 00:28:34 Max: So that is, uh, that’ll be my, um, my last trip that I have that I’m hosting as of now in the, in the lineup. Um, and kind of a different direction than what I’m on now. You know, that’s obviously trout. Um, but I’m in beautiful Argentinian Patagonia. You know, I mean, I don’t think it really gets much better than that when it comes to trout fishing. 00:28:56 Dave: No it doesn’t. No. I think that’s like top of the list for sure. There’s a bunch of places. But yeah. 00:29:02 Max: And I’ve been to Alaska and Alaska is beautiful, but Patagonia sounds a lot nicer than Alaska, right? 00:29:08 Dave: Right. Yeah. In Alaska. What part of Alaska did you go to? 00:29:12 Max: I was on the Kenai Peninsula. 00:29:14 Dave: Oh, Kenai. 00:29:15 Max: Soldotna, I believe, is the town that we were in. Yeah, yeah. That was. I went there with, um, Alaska outdoors. 00:29:22 Dave: Oh, cool. What were you guys fishing for? 00:29:24 Max: Uh, so I tried to do this, uh, thing that they call the June Slam. So it’s seven species on the fly and June down there. Um, I got six of the seven. No kidding, but it’s, uh, Dolly Varden. Let me see if I can remember them all. 00:29:40 Dave: Yeah. Let’s see if you can remember him, Dolly. Let’s see. Well, let’s see, let’s see, let’s see if we can. We’ll let the let the listeners think about this for a second, because we’ve been talking Alaska quite a bit. So you got six. So June, what you’re going to get in June is potentially Chinook, although I think Chinook, were they open during that time because the Kenai has been having some struggles right. With Chinook. 00:29:57 Max: They were. But it was a very small period because it was very low run when I was there a few years ago. 00:30:04 Dave: Yeah. 00:30:05 Max: So you got the Dolly Varden, you got Arctic char, you got lake trout, you have grayling, you have rainbow trout. That’s five. Then you got the Chinook. That’s six. And then the seventh one is what? 00:30:23 Dave: The seventh one. That’s a mystery. I’m trying to think rainbow. No no other salmon would be running in June. Right. Well, you might get some. 00:30:29 Max: It was just one salmon species. 00:30:31 Dave: Yeah. Just the one Chinook. 00:30:33 Max: And I caught the seventh fish because the one that I didn’t catch was. Oh no. Sorry. The seventh is, uh. Pike. 00:30:40 Dave: Oh, and Pike, you got northern pike? 00:30:42 Max: Yeah. Yeah. So that was the one that I didn’t catch. 00:30:44 Dave: Oh, you didn’t get a pike? 00:30:46 Max: Yep, yep. I got all the rest of them, but no pike. 00:30:48 Dave: So you got Doll and Dolly’s Arctic char Lake trout and then Grayling, Grayling, rainbow rainbow and. 00:30:56 Max: Wow. Yep. 00:30:56 Dave: Good work. And that was in June. Uh, what was. 00:30:59 Max: It like, June? 00:31:00 Dave: What was it like down there in June? Pretty good weather. 00:31:02 Max: Oh yeah. It was decent. You know, it wasn’t terrible. A lot of overcast. But, you know, that’s not really when you’re fishing, you’re not really complaining about overcast. 00:31:10 Dave: No. Overcast is good, right? Yeah. 00:31:12 Max: No rain really. Um. 00:31:15 Dave: Good rivers. Good conditions. 00:31:16 Max: Good rivers. Yeah. Good conditions. I think the biggest thing for there is, which is kind of shell shocking if you’re not like programmed with it in your head is going to be the the light versus dark. You know, I, I knew about it, you know, I’ve known about it my whole life, but when I got there, I didn’t think about it. And then I walked out of my room at eleven o’clock at night to run to my car. And it was still sunny out. And I got really confused as to what was happening. And then I remembered. Right. But, um, yeah, that was really the only thing that I would say if, if you’re not walking into it, like conscious that that’s going to happen, it might shock you a little bit. Um, because we had pretty much, I think like twenty, twenty something hours of light a day. It’s not like it’s beating sun. No, it’s weird looking out the window at two o’clock in the morning and the sun is still up, you know, but it is cool. 00:32:08 Dave: Yeah, yeah. For somebody like me or others, you know, where you’re like, oh man, you kind of want to like, just stay up all night, you know, and fish or do whatever, right? 00:32:17 Max: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we definitely stayed out. You know, they had like little gazebo areas over there and we stayed out. Yeah. Shooting Please. You know, wait until the night just because. Why not? You know, you got this opportunity, you might as well. 00:32:31 Dave: Exactly. Well, and you’re on the east coast. What town are you in? Out there on the east. 00:32:35 Max: Uh, so I’m on Long Island. I live in a town called Manorville. Okay. Long Island, New York. It’s, uh, on the east end of Long Island. And this is. I’ve been here my whole life. Not in Manorville, but I’ve been on Long Island my whole life, and, uh, it’s the East Coast, baby. Exactly. 00:32:51 Dave: Yeah. What do you. What’s it cool? For those that haven’t been to Long Island, we’ve actually did at least one episode on Long Island. I know there’s some good opportunities. What do you really love about living out there on Long Island? 00:33:01 Max: Um, I would say the diversity of, of people is really awesome down here. Um, I think that the proximity to saltwater fishing is awesome. Um, and, you know, also very close to here, just upstate, you know, you have some of the most famous and old and tried and true trout fishing rivers. Yeah. 00:33:23 Dave: That’s the thing we haven’t even talked about. I mean, we just had Rachel Finn on the podcast and she was talking about, you know, fish is up on the Ausable. I mean, that for the Adirondacks is like six million acres. It’s massive. 00:33:33 Max: It’s crazy, it’s crazy. And it’s a whole nother, you know, upstate New York, especially like up in the Adirondacks and stuff like that. It is a whole nother world than where I am. You know, it’s like you wouldn’t even believe that you’re in the same state. I mean, Long Island is a very suburban, congested area. It is, you know, you know, you get up into upstate New York and the Adirondacks and you’re you’re back in the woods, you know, you’re back with nature. Um, which is awesome. It’s awesome. 00:34:04 Dave: But you have fishing on Long Island, right? Do you do anything out there on your, you know, when you’re around around town there. 00:34:09 Max: So we have, um. 00:34:11 Dave: I mean, I guess. 00:34:12 Max: It’s like. 00:34:13 Dave: What is it more not as much trout, but kind of warm water fishing out there. 00:34:16 Max: Yeah. So there’s a lot of, you know, like, um, ditch pickle fishing, largemouth bass fishing, bluegill fishing. um. Carp fishing and stuff like that. We have a lot of, uh, small ponds and lakes throughout the island. We have two hatchery rivers here, um, that they raise, fry and release the fish into the river. Um, we did have many, many years ago, a pretty good native brook trout population that has since depleted. There are still some, um, but they’re few and far between. I do fish the hatchery rivers. If I need to, uh, scratch an itch and go catch some trout. Um, one thing that is cool about the hatchery river here, um, is that they do run out into the bay. So you have the opportunity to get some quote unquote hatchery sea run fish. 00:35:08 Dave: No kidding. So these are rainbow trout. 00:35:10 Max: So they stock it with rainbow trout and brook trout. Um, so you could get this hatchery steelhead if it happens really. 00:35:19 Dave: So these hatchery fish will migrate out to the Long Island Sound out there and then come back in. 00:35:24 Max: Yeah. They go out into the great South Bay. So on the south side of the island. Um. 00:35:29 Dave: Yeah. 00:35:30 Max: The river runs right into Patchogue Bay here. And they go right out there. So many, many years ago, many years ago, back in like the eighties, you know, a lot of the old time bass fishermen, striped bass fisherman, they used to know this and they would hang out at the opening of these, of this river going into the bay, because the striped bass used to feed on them, because they would come out through that, through that little canal out into the bay. And the bass used to just hang out and feed on them. So back then it was a very big, uh, one of those unknown secrets that and the fact that, um, we used to have a large run of Caron brook trout because the brook trout, excuse me, would go out of the river and go in the bay. I don’t know if they made it all the way into the ocean or if they were just in the bay, but they would hang out in the bay for a while and then come back up the river. And there’s actually a book called Brook trout. Um, and there’s a small excerpt about them talking about that, you know, here in Long Island in the book. And it doesn’t happen as often. Um, from what I’ve heard and the people that I’ve talked to, I luckily wound up catching one of these sea run brook trout. You know, it looks like an Arctic char. It doesn’t really look like a brook trout anymore. Um, and the I went when I caught it, I went and spoke to the people at the hatchery and everything, and they said that it was the first one that they had seen in fifteen years. No kidding. Yeah. So it hasn’t been, I believe that there still are. It’s probably few and far between, right. 00:36:59 Dave: There’s still. 00:37:00 Max: A few. Um, yeah, but, uh, but that’s cool. You know, it’s a cool thing that you can say that, uh, not something that you cross paths with often. Um, so yeah, definitely. Cool. 00:37:10 Dave: Great. Yeah. And you’re not too far. Like you’re saying, we were just up there. I flew across the country, actually flew into Toronto, then into Nova Scotia, to Halifax, and then up to Newfoundland to fish for Atlantic salmon. You’re not too far from there, right from New York. You could probably. In fact, Lee Wolfe, I think back in the day, used to fly his plane from somewhere out there in the States up. 00:37:29 Max: Yeah. No, it’s not far at all. I mean, we last year, a couple of buddies and I went up to Pulaski for the salmon Run, which is. 00:37:38 Dave: The salmon. Is that the salmon River? 00:37:40 Max: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yup. Yeah. And that’s you’re basically in Canada at that point. 00:37:45 Dave: Oh you are that’s way up there, right? 00:37:47 Max: Yeah. And that’s like an eight hour run from my house. 00:37:50 Dave: Oh, wow. So it’s eight hours from your place to to up to Pulaski. 00:37:54 Max: Up to Pulaski. Yeah. So I mean, give or take another hour. You’re in Canada, another two hours, you’re in Canada. 00:37:59 Dave: Montreal’s not too far from there. Yeah. 00:38:01 Max: Yeah, you can get up there. I mean, it’s definitely if you got like a long weekend, it’s for sure possible. And it’s something that me and my friends have talked about because I, um, I haven’t had the chance to yet to do any swinging. Uh, but I really want to swing some flies and I really want to swing for some Atlantic salmon. Yeah. So that conversation of, uh, weekend backpacking for Atlantic salmon in Canada is always going. 00:38:24 Dave: Right. 00:38:24 Max: There. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:38:26 Dave: Well, that’s something I think you’re gonna have to talk to John Moccasin about. Get put together. Absolutely. Atlantic salmon because I know that’s one that, you know, it’s definitely obviously numbers haven’t been great around the world, but I think, you know, that part of Canada and I and I’ve heard that, you know, out in, I think Quebec, some of those rivers are having pretty good runs, you know, this year. So I think it sounds like something good’s going on out there. 00:38:47 Max: And they got a lot of, uh, you know, up in Nova Scotia now they have a massive striped bass population. 00:38:54 Dave: Oh they do. Oh that’s right. 00:38:55 Max: Yeah yeah yeah. 00:38:57 Dave: Stripers. Yeah. That’s the other one where you’re at. I think where you’re at. I mean probably that is the species. That’s the, the, the you hear the stories about the people are so crazed with, with striped bass. Right. 00:39:08 Max: Striped bass that is the Long Island species. I mean. Yeah, not even just Long Island. That is Montauk. You know, that’s what kind of what I think when it comes to fishing. I think that if you ask anybody about Long Island, the first thing they’re going to say is Montauk. And the second thing they’re going to say is striped bass, striped bass. And that is the truth. That is what, uh, what the fishing here is based off of. That is what ninety percent of fishermen here want. I mean, yes, we still have we still have fluke. We still have summer flounder. We have Blackfish. Um, you know, we do have tuna, we have mahi mahi, but striped bass is always the number one fish that people are here targeting. 00:39:48 Dave: Yeah, exactly. That’s awesome. Well, let’s start to take it out of here with our kind of tips, tools and takeaways segment. This today is presented. We mentioned it here Moxon Fly Club. Um, all the great stuff we’ve we’ve highlighted some of those trips today. I wanted to get a few tips out as we’re thinking about, you know, kind of fly tying. We’ve been on that a little bit, maybe talk about that if somebody’s going to be tying flies, getting ready for a trip, maybe some saltwater trip, what’s a couple of tips you tell folks and maybe you can even bring it back to, you know, how you got into fly tying? Was this something where you watched a bunch of YouTube videos or, you know, how was it getting started? 00:40:21 Max: So my suggestion is going to be contact people. I watched a lot of YouTube videos and I was very weary about messaging people in the beginning because I didn’t want to be that, right? 00:40:33 Dave: Like on social media or something. 00:40:34 Max: Yeah, like that annoying guy that’s like trying to get just information from people and whatever. Um, but I found that everybody, I don’t want to say everybody, ninety percent of people in the tying community are very eager to share and help out. Right. Um, so, oh, my beginning stages was based off of YouTube, but then I started reaching out to people that I, um, aspire to be like when it comes to fly tying and actually became friends with a lot of them, like Matt Bailey and Andre, who’s, uh, South African gentleman. Bucktail flies, uh, August on the fly, you know, a lot of really awesome people in the community that all it takes is just, hey, I’m struggling with this or hey, I want to learn how to do this. Can you show me? Um, and these people are very open to sharing that knowledge. 00:41:23 Dave: That’s cool. And they would show you, you ask them and then they would kind of show you on how would they show you. 00:41:28 Max: Uh, take a video of them tying it and send it over, draw pictures on paper. 00:41:32 Dave: Oh, cool. 00:41:33 Max: Point you in the direction of what YouTube video to watch. There’s also, if you’re a reader, which I unfortunately am not a big reader, even though I have a big book collection, right? Um, there’s tons of books. Bob Popovics has two books out. There’s tons of books that you can read that go over techniques. Um, you know, Flat Wing Joe has a book specifically on tying flat wings. Bob has his two books that go over all his patterns. Um, and then when it comes to, again, to the reaching out to people, if anybody listening has any questions, my Instagram is always open. I have no issues. I’ll FaceTime you, I’ll send you videos. We can go over material, we can go over whatever. There’s no gatekeeping. 00:42:14 Dave: That’s awesome. 00:42:14 Max: You know, if you want the knowledge, the knowledge is there for you. Uh, essentially. 00:42:19 Dave: So somebody getting ready for a, a big saltwater trip somewhere they can just ping you on and remind us again on your Instagram predator. What’s your handle? 00:42:27 Max: Uh, predator prey flies. 00:42:29 Dave: Yeah. So we can track you down there. And that’s good to hear because, you know, I think that everybody’s busy. But the cool thing is, is that, you know, the fly tying and all this, you know, you love it so much. You want to share what your knowledge, right. And you’re kind of at that level now you’re at the next level, right? So people are going to be hitting you up more. 00:42:45 Max: Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, it’s one of those things that, um, it’s a never ending game. You’re never going to learn everything. There’s so much knowledge out there and there’s so much improvement. You know, I don’t even some people may say that I’m on a certain level, but I don’t even, you know, I still see myself as a beginner that has so much to learn. And I think that that’s what’s awesome about it is that it’s not just fly tying, but it’s an art. It’s a craft. 00:43:09 Dave: Exactly. 00:43:10 Max: If you’re an artistic person and you like that your craft is never ending. You’re always evolving. You’re always learning new techniques. What if I tweak this fly this way? How’s it going to. Is it going to jerk to the left in the water or is it going to dive down? Uh, how’s it going to swim? You know? So there’s so much. It’s a mad science. You can get so deep into it. It’s awesome. 00:43:29 Dave: That’s great. It’s awesome. Is there on the flies? Is there one? I’m guessing it’s maybe one of Bob’s, but one that’s just your standard, uh, saltwater fly. That would work for like all the a lot of these species we’re talking about. 00:43:40 Max: Yeah, it’s definitely going to be Bob’s flies, and it’s either going to be a hollow fly or a Semper fly. Those are my two go to’s. They’re always in my bag. Any color variation, whether it be a simple white on white or something to mimic a bunker or, you know, any species. Yeah, the hollow fly and the Semper Fly are always in my bag. And they’re the first two things I’m throwing go to’s. 00:44:03 Dave: Okay. What would be a tip on tying those flies? What’s something somebody wanted to tie up a few of those for? And would those be good potentially for even like redfish to. 00:44:12 Max: Uh, if they’re hitting on mullet. Yeah. If you tie them on a smaller size and they’re hitting on mullet, absolutely. You could throw those at redfish. Um, the tip that I would have is going to be, um, be selective about your material. Don’t just go and buy when it comes to bucktail. Don’t just go and buy any bucktail off the shelf. And I want to preface this. You can tie these patterns with any grade bucktail that’s on the market, but depending on the grade, you can make your life way harder or way easier. You want to go through the long haul of trial and error, like I did, of just buying this and buying that and buying this and buying that, that’s fine. It’s a great way to learn on your own. If you want to kind of circumvent all of that, go online. There’s tons of videos of people talking about grading Bucktail. I have a small video that I did with, um, about trout that’s on there. Yeah, it’s on their Instagram. James did a small video with me. It’s one of his guide tips. It’s on his Instagram talking about Bucktail. So if you need to see that that’s on there. 00:45:17 Dave: Yeah, we’ll put that in the show notes as well. 00:45:18 Max: Yeah, yeah. There’s tons of videos. I would say that’s going to be the main thing. If you got the time to watch a few videos or do a little research on what kind of bucktail you need for what you’re tying, you’re going to save yourself some money and some frustration for sure. 00:45:32 Dave: There you go. And bucktail and on the bucktail, the difference is, is that there’s a quality difference out there, right? But also selecting depending on what you tie, like thinner versus like, yeah, maybe describe that a little bit. Is there, is it a quality thing? 00:45:45 Max: Mostly it’s going to be a quality thing for sure. And the quality is going to be, uh, on different grades. Obviously you have length. Um, so if you’re looking to build a really, really long fly, you want really, really long bucktail, which is a lot harder to find. You need to be a lot more selective about finding, you know, bucktail that has six seven inch hairs on it when the average is going to have like three four inch hairs on it. Um, and then it’s going to be the consistency of the material. Is it super crinkly? Is it super soft. Is it stiff. Does it flop? And again, all of that is going to affect how the flies, fishes and swims. 00:46:24 Dave: Where do you go. Where do you get your bucktail from. 00:46:26 Max: I get my bucktail from anybody that has good bucktail. 00:46:30 Dave: Oh really? So you so this is like local like around the area or mostly online. 00:46:34 Max: There’s tons of guys on Instagram that are, um, processing and selling bucktail and that’s, you know, there’s, there’s a few guys, um, lateral lines fly tying is a guy that’s selling really good Bucktail. Uh, northwest Bucktail is also putting out a really good product, musky full, which is, you know, a bigger company. They also make, they make a great bucktail, um, you know, and they have a lot of awesome colors. Um, but I would say for me and my style and the kind of person I am, I like the small batch guys because one, You build a relationship with them. You become friends with them. They die. Up something cool. You never know. They might hit you up before they release it and be like, hey, you want this, right? So it’s cool to have that personal connection with somebody. And you know, you can ask for requests too, if you’re friendly with them, you know, hey, what do you think about this? Hey, what do you think about that? Um, so I’m more of a, a personable guy. I want to make a relationship with you. I want to be friends. Um, that’s why I deal with a lot of the guys that do small batch, uh, bucktails. Yeah. 00:47:37 Dave: Small batch. That’s awesome. No, those are great resources. Um, what is the so we mentioned, obviously we’re talking travel here today a little bit. What would be, you know, first off is the travel. Is that something you really enjoy? All the travel, getting to these places, just the getting there. 00:47:51 Speaker 5: I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s great. 00:47:53 Max: The whole build up of packing your bags six months in advance and looking at them every day until you go and. 00:48:00 Dave: Tying. 00:48:00 Max: Tying flies and, you know, rerigging rods and taking lines off and the whole build up of it, it’s it’s you know, the trip doesn’t start when you get there. The trip starts when you book it and you start thinking about it. So it’s an awesome process. Destination fishing has been something that I’ve thought about ever since I was a kid. Um, again, I’ll take it back to Jeremy Wade, man. You know, that’s, I think he was an inspiration to a lot of people. 00:48:27 Dave: What’s his show? 00:48:27 Max: River monsters. 00:48:28 Dave: Yeah. River monsters. 00:48:29 Max: Yeah. I think he was an inspiration to a lot of young anglers or, you know, anglers around my age bracket. Um, and he’s been all over the world. So as a kid watching that, I was like, oh man, I want to go there. I want to go there. I want to go there. And then I got a little bit older and I got in a position where I was able to venture out and do it once. And once I did it once. Um, it kind of became the only thing that I really, uh, wanted to ever do again. 00:48:56 Speaker 5: So that’s, you know, that’s, uh. 00:48:58 Max: When you get to this. Yeah. When you get to this level of love and addiction for the sport, it’s almost like you do everything in life to revolve around. 00:49:07 Dave: Exactly. To get to the next true. 00:49:09 Max: Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, we’re working to get to the next trip where we’re doing this for the next trip. So that’s where I’m at. And I love it. And I hope that I get to go anywhere and everywhere. And I hope that people listening to this, you know, if you’re weary about it or you don’t know if you should go or you’re not sure if it’s worth it, just go. Just do it. Because I’m telling you, that’s how I was the first time I tossed and turned and, and this and that. And then I just it snapped in my head. I made the phone call and that was it. You know, listen, life is short. You never know what’s going to happen. Yep. You can always make more money. You cannot make more time. So go and do the things that you want to do. Make friends, make memories, catch awesome fish, eat awesome food and awesome places and live life. Man, that’s really it. 00:49:58 Dave: That’s it. Well said. Well, take us out here with our just our travel tips and, you know, tips and tools kind of segment here. So you’re out traveling. What is your advice? What’s one tip you would give somebody on the travel to have about it? Because I know we’ve had issues with, you know, lost bags and we’ve had like, uh, you know, ferry issues, right? All this stuff. What is your, what’s one tip you would give somebody who’s making a big travel? 00:50:22 Max: Uh, I would say make a checklist when it comes to packing. Um, that’s the first thing that I always do is make a checklist because I’m one of those people that always somehow manages to forget something. Right? Um, so the checklist is key. Um, don’t overpack and don’t under pack. I know that that’s a crazy thing to say. And it’s like, you know, yeah, just pack what you need. Um, think about it. Are you really gonna need to change your underwear five times a day? No, no, you know what I mean. Do you really need seventy thousand pairs of socks? No, no travel light travel with what you need. Because wherever you go, you’re gonna bring stuff back from guaranteed. Um, and then my big thing, which John from moccasin will always say with the rods, carry them on going, check them coming back. You do not want to get to Brazil or Mexico or Oman or anywhere in the world, and your rods are lost when you come home and you’re coming off of the high of five days of fishing. If your rods get lost in transportation for a few days, you’re not going to care as much. So carry them on going there, check them coming back. Um, extra line, bring extra line and, uh, extra line. 00:51:35 Dave: What do you mean by extra line? 00:51:36 Max: Extra fly line? 00:51:37 Dave: So bring us a, uh, like extra, like extra backup fly lines. 00:51:42 Max: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Because you never know. You never know, especially when you’re getting in these places again, like Brazil, Mexico, uh, you know, Oman, a GT will blow your line up, right? A tree in Brazil in the river will cut your line. A tarpon could pop your line. So bring an extra line, uh, travel light and have fun. 00:52:02 Dave: That’s it. 00:52:03 Max: That’s it, ma’am. 00:52:04 Dave: Awesome. So I think we can leave it there for today. This has been awesome. We will send everybody out to moccasin Flyklubb dot com and they can reach you as well at Predator Prey Flies on Instagram. And yeah, man, this has been great. Appreciate all the the words of advice on tying and travel and we’ll be keeping in touch with you as we move ahead. 00:52:21 Max: Awesome. Dave, I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. And, uh, uh, yeah, thank you and have a great day, man. 00:52:28 Dave: All right. Hope you enjoyed that one. If you get a chance, check in with Max. Uh, you can go to Max and flyklubb dot com or check in with them on Instagram if you want to. You heard them. If you want to get into more on tying some of these flies, Max is there for you. Check in with him, send him a DM, he’s going to help you out. I want to let you know if you’re interested in any trips. You can go to moccasin or you can go to Wet Fly Swing Pro, and that’s the easiest place if you’re not a member yet in Pro, we’ve got a bunch of bonuses and and extras you get there, go to pro dot swing dot com and want to let you know. We got trips. We mentioned a few of them here. Uh, moccasins double haul. We’ve got we’ve got the redfish trip, we’ve got a bunch of trips around the country. So if you’re interested in anything, please check in today. And that’s all we got for you. We’re going to keep this rolling as we get out and travel around the country. Hope you’re enjoying and preparing and planning for a big destination trip yourself. And if you get a chance, please check in with me anytime. If you’re new to the show, Dave at webplace dot com. Always love to hear from new members, new listeners, and everybody out there. So check in if you get a chance and I want to wish you a good day. Hope you’re having a good evening, morning or afternoon, and we’ll look forward to talking to you on the next episode. We’ll see you then. 00:53:37 Speaker 6: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit Wet Fly swing dot com.
Big Predator Flies: Fly Tying and Destination Fishing with Max Rivetta

Conclusion with Max Rivetta on Big Predator Flies

Max’s journey shows that destination fishing is about more than catching fish. It’s about preparing well, learning from others, and enjoying every step of the adventure.

Whether you’re tying better flies, planning your next trip, or connecting with fellow anglers, his experiences are a reminder that growth comes from staying curious and continuing to learn.

     

962 | Soulfly Co.: How Music and Fly Fishing Are Building a Stronger Community

Capt. Kyle Schaefer Fly Fishing

Fly fishing has always been about more than catching fish; it’s about building connections, sharing experiences, and protecting the waters that bring people together. In this episode, host Dave Stewart sits down with Kyle Schaefer, founder of Soul Fly Co Oufitters, to discuss how his company is bringing those values to life through music, fly fishing, and conservation. Together, they explore how Soul Fly Co. is creating a welcoming community that inspires both seasoned anglers and newcomers alike.

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

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Show Notes with Capt. Kyle Schaefer of Soulfly Co. on Fly Fishing Community

Kyle Schaefer is the founder of Soul Fly Co., a community that’s driven outdoor brand that combines fly fishing, live music, conservation, and meaningful experiences to bring people together. He is also the co-owner of Soul Fly Lodge in the Berry Islands of the Bahamas, where he has spent years guiding anglers while promoting sustainable fishing practices and protecting healthy fisheries.

Before launching Soul Fly Co., Kyle built a career as a fly fishing guide, lodge manager, and conservation advocate. His passion for creating authentic outdoor experiences inspired him to expand beyond guiding trips, leading to the creation of Soul Fly Co.’s unique festivals that connect anglers, musicians, artists, conservation organizations, and outdoor enthusiasts in one welcoming community.

From Guide Service to Building a Fly Fishing Community

[00:01:53] Capt. Kyle explains that Soul Fly didn’t begin as a music festival. It started as Soul Fly Outfitters, a guiding business focused primarily on striped bass with conservation at its core.

As the business grew, so did Capt. Kyle’s vision. After opening Soul Fly Lodge in the Bahamas, Capt. Kyle realized that destination trips aren’t accessible for everyone. That led to a new idea: creating events where people could experience the same sense of community without having to travel internationally.

Instead of centering everything around fishing, Soulfly events combine it with:

  • Live music
  • Conservation
  • Local artists
  • Fly fishing culture
  • Nonprofit organizations
  • Community gatherings

Why Music Belongs in Fly Fishing Community

[00:04:14] Music may seem like an unexpected addition to a fly fishing event, but for Capt. Kyle, it’s one of the most important things. Rather than focusing solely on gear or casting demonstrations, Soulfly.co creates the atmosphere where people naturally gather, meet new friends, and stay long after the fishing conversations begin.

Kyle admits that neither he nor his partners came from an event-planning background. Instead, they approached every festival by asking one simple question: “What kind of event would we actually want to attend?”

One of those partners mentioned is Alec “Griz” Griswold, whose nonprofit organization is Elevate Youth helps introduce young people to the outdoors through long-term mentorship. His experience building communities became one of the driving forces behind Soulfly’s events.

Another key lesson has been listening.

Rather than assuming they know what attendees want, Capt. Kyle explains that every festival becomes an opportunity to gather feedback and improve the experience the following year.

Fly Fishing community at Soulfy Lodge.
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/soulflylodge/

Inside the Charleston Soulfly Festival

[00:05:42] The very first Soulfly festival took place in Charleston, South Carolina, and quickly exceeded expectations. Held at The Refinery, the event sold out and created exactly the type of atmosphere Kyle had envisioned: a place where fly anglers, musicians, artists, conservation groups, and outdoor brands all felt like part of the same community.

The lineup features:

marsh-wear-event.webp
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/soulfly_co/

The festival followed a unique rhythm throughout the day. During the afternoon, attendees explored sponsor booths, conservation organizations, casting demonstrations, food vendors, and community activities. When evening arrived, the focus naturally shifted to live music, creating an entirely different energy while keeping the fly-fishing community at the center of the experience.

Capt. Kyle says that blending these two worlds creates an important opportunity to introduce new people to fly fishing. Many attendees had never picked up a fly rod before. But at Charleston, Capt. Kyle spent time teaching first-time fly casters, giving newcomers an accessible entry point into the sport while connecting them with guides, conservation organizations, and experienced anglers.

How Conservation Shapes Every Soulfly Festival

[00:10:40] For Capt. Kyle, attracting new anglers isn’t enough. The goal is to introduce people to fly fishing and to help them understand why healthy fisheries matter. Music creates the draw, but conservation becomes part of the experience. Throughout the entire event, attendees can meet nonprofit organizations, participate in educational activities, and discover ways to support the waters they enjoy.

Capt. Kyle believes that bringing together anglers, musicians, outdoor brands, and conservation creates a much stronger movement than keeping each group separate. That philosophy has also attracted many partners who share the same values, including Patagonia.

Patagonia Helps Turn Conservation Into Action

[00:16:11] The biggest highlight of the episode is Soulfly’s partnership with Patagonia, a company widely recognized for putting conservation at the center of everything it does. Capt. Kyle, who has been a Patagonia ambassador for four to five years, explains that partnership goes far beyond displaying logos at an event. Patagonia became Soulfly’s presenting sponsor because both organizations share the same philosophy, which is creating memorable experiences while leaving fisheries and communities better than they found them.

At the inaugural of the Charleston event, those values were reflected in immeasurable results. Soulfly.Co., operated the festival at approximately 96% waste-free, offset its power consumption, and raised around $30,000 for Charleston Waterkeeper, supporting all the local conservation efforts. Patagonia also brings education directly to attendees. Capt. Kyle believes conservation shouldn’t feel intimidating. Instead, events should make people feel welcome, inspired, and excited to become part of the solution.

“Let’s have getting together and making a difference feel fun.” – Capt. Kyle Schaefer

Party-with-a-cause-at-soulfy-festival
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/soulfly_co/

From Charleston to Boston: Growing the Soul Fly Community

[00:05:42] After a successful event that sold out in Charleston, Soul Fly Co. is expanding to Boston with a new festival hosted at Cisco Brewers in the Seaport District.

The weekend begins with fundraising event supporting:

The following day features live music, casting instruction, sponsor activations, local food, conservation education, and opportunities for anglers of every experience level to connect. Capt. Kyle explains that one of the goals is introducing newcomers to fly fishing. At the Charleston festival, every person he taught during casting instruction had never picked up a fly rod before. Instead of preaching to experienced anglers, Soul Fly Co. intentionally creates an entry point for people discovering fly fishing for the first time.

Sponsor Activations That Actually Add Value

[00:20:12] Instead of treating sponsors like advertisers, Soul Fly Co. asks every brand to create meaningful experiences for the attendees. Capt. Kyle refers to these as “activations.” Rather than simply displaying products, brands create opportunities for visitors to participate, learn, and build relationships.

Here are some examples:

  • Fly casting games
  • Conservation exhibits
  • Gear demonstrations
  • Fly Pong
  • Wader repairs
  • Educational booths

Capt. Kyle explains that great partnerships are built around adding value, not just simply selling products. As he puts it, if someone starts selling to you immediately, you’ve probably already lost interest. Building relationships comes first.

Soulfly Lodge Offers a Different Bahamas Experience

[00:22:37] While Soul Fly events continue growing, Kyle spends much of the year running Soul Fly Lodge in the Berry Islands of the Bahamas. Now entering its 6th season, the lodge has become one of the region’s premier destinations for anglers looking to pursue mature permit and healthy populations of bonefish. Unlike many Bahamian fisheries that serve as nursery habitat, the Berry Islands are known for holding larger, mature fish.

Capt. Kyle describes the area as a destination for anglers hunting:

  • Large permit
  • Trophy bonefish
  • Mutton snapper
  • Horse-eye jacks
  • Cobia
  • African pompano
  • Yellow jacks
Capt. Kyle Schaefer at Soulfly Lodge.
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/captkyleschaefer/

One of the most encouraging observations comes from legendary Bahamian guide Percy Darville, who told Kyle that he’s seeing more bonefish than ever before in parts of the Berry Islands. Capt. Kyle believes improved conservation efforts and the reduction of historical netting have allowed some bonefish populations to recover naturally.

To protect the fishery, Soul Fly intentionally limits pressure by operating only four boats, despite having room to expand. For Capt. Kyle, maintaining the health of the resource is more important than maximizing guest numbers.

Capt. Kyle and Percy at Soulfly Lodge
Capt. Kyle and Percy at Soulfly Lodge photo via https://www.instagram.com/percy_darville/

Growing the Fly Fishing Community the Right Way

[00:37:09 ] Soulfly plans to expand; Capt. Kyle isn’t interested in building the biggest festivals possible. Instead, he’d rather create three outstanding events than dozens of large festivals where attendees lose the close-knit atmosphere that makes Soulfly very unique. That philosophy has already created unexpected connections. Capt. Kyle shares the story of a couple from Michigan who first won a trip to Soulfly Lodge through an event raffle. After visiting the Bahamas, they attended the Charleston festival and won another lodge trip.

Building a Fly Fishing Community Starts With Shared Values

[00:45:25] When Dave asks Capt. Kyle for advice on building a community, Kyle’s answer has little to do with marketing. Instead, he encourages people to be honest about who they are and what they believe. Whether guiding striped bass trips, running a lodge, or organizing festivals, Kyle has always led with the same message: Be clear about your values.

Why Science Matters for the Future of Fisheries

[0047:06] Capt. Kyle also discusses his work with the Saltwater Guides Association (ASGA), an organization focused on science, advocacy, and education for saltwater fisheries stretching from Maine to Texas.

Capt. Kyle highlights several conservation initiatives, including research on:

  • False albacore
  • Jack crevalle
  • Striped bass
  • Redfish
  • Tarpon
  • Atlantic bonito

Capt. Kyle explains that many saltwater species have historically received little scientific attention, making responsible management difficult. One example is false albacore. By tagging fish with telemetry transmitters, researchers discovered that fish caught near Cape Cod were part of the same shared stock migrating all the way to Florida.

That information led to new conversations about protecting the species throughout its range not just in individual states. Capt. Kyle also emphasizes that abundance benefits everyone. Having healthy fish populations supports recreational anglers, guides, local businesses, and coastal communities alike.


Connect with Capt. Kyle Schaefer

Instagram: @captkyleschaefer

Linktr.ee: @kyleschaeferflyfishing

Website: Soulflyco.com & Soulflylodge.com

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

Fly Fishing Community Resources Noted in the Show

Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Dave Stewart: Fly fishing has a way of bringing people together, but every once in a while, someone comes along with a fresh idea for what that can look like. Today we’re talking about music conservation community, and why creating experiences away from the water can be just as meaningful as the days spent on it. Joining us today is Kyle Schaefer from Soulfly Co. And he’s going to talk about how he’s building a different kind of gathering for anglers while also running a lodge in one of the Bahamas most respected permit fisheries. In this episode, you’re going to hear how Soulfly events blend music, fly fishing, and conservation into one big weekend event. What they’ve learned after selling out their first festival in Charleston. We’re going to get a look inside Soulfly Lodge on the Berry Islands and how this area is different, what it looks like for species, and a few insider species that you might want to think about on top of the top. The big ones we always think about. Plus, we’re going to get into conservation and what you can do today to help support protecting the species we love. All right, you can find Kyle. Like we said, Soulfly Lodge. You can go to Soulfly dot com. Here he is. Kyle Shaffer. How are you doing, Kyle? 00:01:11 Kyle Schaefer: I’m doing great. Dave. How are you doing? 00:01:13 Dave Stewart: Really good. Really good. I’m excited for this one. I think I want to say it was Rachel Finn, I believe told me about your event you guys have coming here. I think you’ve got a couple where you’re doing you’re mixing, it’s music, fly fishing, and we’re going to get the details on that because I’m a big music fan. Of course, podcasting is big, but for audio, you know, there’s nothing better than on a road trip listening to some good music. So we’re going to talk music today. We’re also going to talk about your lodge you have down in the Bahamas, another big spot there, location that people are definitely interested in. So we’re going to get into all that today. But take us back real quick on, you know, this music. How did this come to be? When did this event idea and you know, your fly fishing, bringing those together come as an idea? 00:01:53 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. Well, it’s definitely been kind of a morphing journey that has has got us here, you know. And I think it’s really been kind of a progression of Soulfly, you know, my company and this brand that we’ve, you know, kind of morphed and changed over time. You know, for me, it started as just my guiding business. So it was Soulfly Outfitters for, for a number of years. And, you know, I was guiding for striped bass fishing for stripers, all with a very heavy conservation focus. And how can we take care of the waters around us? So, you know, it felt like built this really cool community. And I’ll try and keep this, this, uh, short and wrap it back around to events. But after that, you know, we, you know, we had this really great opportunity and this would be really abbreviated of to start of very, you know, a great opportunity to start a lodge down in the Berry Islands. And so we realized we’re, you know, we’re now we’re offering, offering these experiences to more people. But lodge fishing in another country can be exclusive. And not a lot of people can make it there. They don’t always have the time. And, you know, just seeing all these beautiful benefits of building community around fishing. Having it be bigger than actually the fish is just such a beautiful approach. And so that’s really where events came in. And my partner, Alec Griswold, my wife Kitty, and my partners on everything that we do here and with Soulfly. And so we started, uh, we started really talking about kind of this, this need for a different kind of event in the fly fishing space and, you know, event that brings community together around music, around art, around an advocacy issue. Maybe there’s a couple nonprofits involved and really focusing on kind of this intangible vibe that we’re trying to build and have it really feel like this self produced. Of course, we’re putting a lot of, uh, a lot of time and effort into, to what’s going into the event, but also really, really having it be focused on the, the members of the community that are coming to these events. And I think one of the special things is we’re we’re going nowhere with it. And we have, you know, we’re very open minded and we are listening to the community after we put an event on and just trying to do it better, better every year. But I think part of the Secret Sauce has been bringing in really good music for it. 00:04:14 Dave Stewart: Right. That’s the key. Yeah. Bringing the good music. And I’m sure that’s a little bit of a challenge there. And just the whole logistics of all that. Did you have getting into this? Is this something where you jump into it and just kind of by the seat of your pants, or do you have some experience in the event planning or music space? 00:04:30 Speaker 3: You know, I feel like we’ve got some experience putting these different experiences together. But no, you know, we are not we are not event people. We we did not come from a background of event management. And I think it really was just, you know, we’re, we’re looking at this as we were starting to get into it. My partner Grizz is just, he’s just the perfect person to be really kind of leading us into this And you know, he’s just just an incredible human who’s just a super social person. He’s great at building community. And Chris used to do this through, and he still does through a nonprofit that he started called Elevate Youth, which gets gets kids in the city outside and under these long term mentorship programs. And so, like, there’s been a lot of elements to kind of all of our work life in the past that has, I think has positioned us well for it. But we this is really the first go in foray into it. And honestly, that might be a benefit because we haven’t, you know, we’re just kind of creating something that we see as the best fit for, for these different communities at this time and doing a lot of listening. 00:05:33 Dave Stewart: That’s cool. That’s smart. Yeah, listening is good, for sure. What is the talk about the events? I think you have a couple and there’s one that’s coming up here this year, right in September. 00:05:42 Speaker 3: Yes, definitely. So we’ve got Boston is coming up our first event in Boston. So September twelfth, we’re actually going to have a fundraiser event on September eleventh, which is going to benefit Elevate Youth, who I just mentioned, and then also the Saltwater Guides Association, Marine Fisheries conservation, a huge need for for more firepower and more work being done in that space right now. So we’ll have the fundraiser on Friday night. We’ll have the the festival on Saturday, and we’ll have some fishing kind of mixed in throughout the weekend. And actually, we’re just right on the cusp of making some, some announcements on, on music and, and tickets and getting all that stuff up on the website here in the next couple of days. So, um, pretty excited for, for the space. It’s going to be down at Cisco Brewers in the seaport in Boston, a great central location. So we’re getting very excited. In our first event that we, we put on was in Charleston this past spring in May. And we had a great, great venue at the refinery. We had just an amazing community. Paul Puckett was. Oh, yeah. Um, such a huge lead on. Kind of pulling community together with us. And it just felt like once we got it, once we got it kind of started, there was just a lot of people that just wanted to, to pitch in and help and, and pull this community together. And Charleston is just such a wonderful community to have our have our first event. So it sold out. The vibes were great, the music was killer. And it really felt like, okay, we are. Uh, it was very encouraging. You know, we put it, we put a ton of effort into it. And you hope that everything goes to plan. And, uh, and the vibe was great and people are, people are ready to keep it, keep it rolling. And we got a lot of those Charleston people that are that are hopping on the road and they’re coming up to support the event in Boston. So I think we’ve got, uh, we got a great a great team coming together to. 00:07:36 Dave Stewart: How far is that drive from Charleston to Boston? 00:07:39 Speaker 3: Oh, man, I’ve made it a couple times. It’s, uh, don’t quote me on it, but it’s probably, it’s probably a good fifteen hours. 00:07:45 Dave Stewart: Okay. Fifteen I was going to say I was going to say twelve We’re heading out to Montana, and it’s about a twelve hour drive to Helena. And and I’m like, okay, I don’t know what it is, but as I get older, I can drive longer. You know, it feels like. So I could put twelve hours behind me pretty. I could do it, you know, almost in a day, you know what I mean? But, um, talk about the music. So that’s one big thing, right? Because this could be country music. It could be reggae, it could be anything. What is the type of music and who’s going to be there? 00:08:12 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting because I mean, you know, you think of music and, and what you like and you know, what, what really moves you. And there’s so many other elements when you’re thinking about actually booking a band for, uh, for a festival, you know, like, what is the vibe that you want it to be? Who is, who’s the draw? Is it going to be able to draw in a really interesting crowd? And so we have some help on, on booking music, which has been a really, really key for us just to just really understand that landscape. So and in Charleston, I can’t mention who we’ve got, uh, for Boston quite yet. We’re just going to get that up in a couple of days. 00:08:47 Dave Stewart: Talk about Charleston. That’d be easier. Like you’ve already had it. So who is at the Charleston event? 00:08:52 Speaker 3: For sure. So we had the stews were our headline band, um, their, their band that’s really strong in the southeast and you know, they’re, they’re up and coming. They, um, you know, they kind of have like a, a jammy vibe to them and they’re, they just have such a really great community down there and, uh, in the southeast. So that was one of those bands that were like, you know, it’s, they’re going to bring just an awesome, awesome vibe, but they’re also gonna draw in a lot of people and they have a great following down there. They love playing Charleston. It’s a community that they love. And then we also had Mountain Grass Unit who was just an absolute blast. They they opened the show. Leon Madison and then, uh, Paul Puckett’s band played for us as well. And they just, they just rock and they just did such a great job opening up the event in the afternoon. Um, because of the way it works is, you know, it’s the first section. The first few hours of the event is really focused on kind of the core community and the fly fishing activations and the sponsors and, and the, you know, the music, the food, all that is, is really kind of front and central. The first, the first part of the event. And then you kind of get into the afternoon and the bands start playing and, you know, it does feel like it does kind of take a little bit of a shift. You know, now people are focusing a little bit more on the music. And so we, we had this really fun kind of flow to the event where it’s core community to start. And then you have a lot of different people kind of trickling in. And then by the end of the night, it’s, it feels like you’re just at a full on, full on live music event. 00:10:24 Dave Stewart: That’s awesome. I love that. So you blend it. So you kind of start with the, like you said, the fly fishing activation. So get things going and then by the end it’s full on music. What are the, you know, the people going there? Is it all fly anglers or is this are there some people that have never fly fish that are just coming for the music? 00:10:40 Speaker 3: There is. Yeah, it’s such a mixed bag and I think that’s something that our, you know, our industry is interested in is like, how do you not just talk to the same group of people that, you know, preaching to the choir, whether it’s about conservation or whether it’s about trying to grow our sport. And so, you know, we really did see that, you know, when you are bringing in music like this that has a following, you are getting a lot of people that are, um, getting an entry point into the sport. Maybe they’re getting some interest, maybe it’s through conservation and advocacy. Maybe it’s, I mean, I was, I did a bunch of casting instruction at the event and, um, in Charleston and there were so many, everybody that I taught had never picked up a fly rod. So it was really cool. It was a lot of people that were very interested. Um, they’d, you know, they’ve watched the sport from afar, but I think they’ve, they had a hard time finding their, their entry point. And so, you know, I think our perspective is if we can get, if we can have new people enter this sport, You know, it’s good for brands, it’s good for conservation, it’s good for the community. You know, I think we’ve got more to protect than than ever and and a stronger need than ever to advocate for, for what we love and these wild places. And so it’s been, it’s been interesting getting this kind of this mixed group to join for these events. 00:12:01 Dave Stewart: Right. What was the, as you were getting into it, just the build up to it. I’m not sure how long you were planning it, but what was the kind of the most challenging thing about putting this all together? 00:12:10 Speaker 3: Man, I think, I think a lot of it is just you’re doing everything brand new for the first time, you know? So it’s like everywhere you turn, you know, we’re so we’re fortunate to have Charleston behind us now and we’re like, okay, okay. 00:12:24 Dave Stewart: So do you have the town of Charleston kind of the visit, the group, the town itself behind you? 00:12:29 Speaker 3: Well, and I mean, just like the event itself is now in the rear view mirror and we’ve done everything. And also we did feel like a lot of community support, which was great. So I guess I meant that in both ways of it. But but you know, now that you now that we’ve got that event under our belt, like there’s just so many questions that have been answered. You know, Boston, again, it’s everything is we’re doing everything brand new for the first time. Um, we’re doing, working at a new venue. We’re, we’re working with a Boston community, which is so different than Charleston. And so I think that’s probably one of the biggest challenges is just, uh, you know, you’re just every day, you’re, uh, is kind of frontier forging on with a very new business, a very young event company that, you know, we’re trying to do special stuff and do a lot of listings. So it just, it just takes a lot of heavy lifting in that, in that sense. And, you know, I think as we get into year two and year three and these, we’re going to have kind of a little bit of a formula and, you know, we’re building out a great team that’s been, uh, that’s been amazing. I’ve got another partner named Will Morris who’s down in South Carolina. He’s been incredible. Just a young, super bright dude who’s just, uh, just such a sharp guy. But there hasn’t been like a huge amount of roadblocks. It’s just more hard work. And, uh, in trying to be, uh, trying to be nimble. 00:13:47 Dave Stewart: That’s awesome. I’m looking at, um, this is on your website. So this is, uh, I guess public stuff here. This is for the, uh, it looks like September twelfth. It will be the event, right? 00:13:59 Speaker 3: Exactly. Yep. 00:14:01 Dave Stewart: And so it looks like you have, uh, not, not Jimmy Buffett, but Jimmy Buffett is that part of the crew that will be there. 00:14:07 Speaker 3: That is yeah. So we’re going to have, we’re there a really cool kind of jam band with a good following in the northeast. They cover a ton of Jimmy Buffett songs. 00:14:18 Dave Stewart: That’s awesome. Uh, they just kind of caught my eye. We just had recently actually. Well, I’m talking in the future because we schedule stuff, but Tom McGuane is on the podcast and he was just talking about, you know, he was a big guy back in the seventies, right back in that, you know, kind of fishing down there in Florida. And Jimmy Buffett was one of his buddies, and they were talking about back in the time, right back in the day when they were just fishing and, you know, drinking and partying too much and stuff like that. But, um, so I love a little Jimmy Buffett music for sure. So that’ll be good. And then, um, yeah, so you’ve got some other kind of notes here. So we’ll have a link in the show notes so people can check that out on the details. So that’s the twelfth. And then the next year you guys are going to do this again in May for the Charleston show. 00:14:59 Speaker 3: We are we’re going to do Charleston again in May. We’ll do New England again. Well, there’s there’s very likely that will change venues for, uh, for kind of our Boston area event. And, you know, we’ll probably add one more in the next couple years. And, you know, we’ve got some thoughts and ideas on that, but, uh, but just trying to, you know, we really don’t want to grow. We really don’t want to grow this thing in size. I think we’d rather go deeper, you know, not turn this into like, uh, you know, fifteen, twenty, zero zero zero person events where, you know, you’re just kind of get lost in the scale and scope. I think we’d rather continue to build out really thoughtful ways for, um, smaller events to, to feel intimate and to feel like you’re not losing that vibe. So I think there’s a lot of ways to do that. I mean, I think it’s honestly kind of endless. You know, we’re, there’s a lot of ways to kind of weave in more fishing experiences at these events. There’s, you know, there’s so much good food and great hospitality around at these locations that I think there’s, you know, that’s, I think where we’re, we’re hoping to kind of evolve versus just kind of lose the, the feel of these with growing them in size. 00:16:11 Dave Stewart: Love that, love that. It looks like one of your partners is Patagonia. And obviously they’ve, uh, I know I’ve heard them talk about that, that they’re, you know, it’s like the book publishing part of it where they’re not about it’s not about making money. Right? Really for them, it’s about, you know, what’s the bigger picture? And I’m guessing since you have Patagonia on, that’s probably a pretty big thing for these events. How has that work with conservation? How does the. If people go there, how does that benefit conservation and the species out there? 00:16:39 Speaker 3: Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, Patagonia, I’ve I’ve been an ambassador for them for about four or five years. And we’re very excited that they’re going to be our, our presenting sponsor in Boston. And, you know, and I think our, our ethos with events, with the Lodge, with with my guiding business, it’s all been really centered in conservation and sustainability. And of course, we’re all very imperfect. But that was a big part of it for, for Patagonia coming on board. They, they obviously are such leaders in that in that mission as well. So for one, we’re we wanted to make an event that that folks could be proud to be engaged with from a sustainability standpoint. You know, we’ve got our impact report out from Charleston, which we’re about ninety six percent waste free. You know, we had offsets for, for our, our power consumption. Um, we put a ton of effort into, we raised about thirty thousand dollars for the Charleston Waterkeeper. So I think elements like that alone are like, Patagonia can feel good about signing on and being a presenting sponsor. And now that we’re getting into our our second event, we’re going to have a bunch of different Patagonia ambassadors there talking about, you know, their, their work in, in the conservation space. And, and a couple of the, uh, actually a couple, the ambassadors or consultants for the Saltwater Guides Association who will be advocating for marine conservation with like Blaine chocolate. He’s an ambassador for Patagonia and also a consultant with me at, uh, at ASG. A is the acronym for the Saltwater Guides Association. So we’re, you know, we’re going to be up there just spreading the good, the good word, putting on a, a sustainable event as we can, and also just trying not to jam it down anybody’s throat. You know, I think we want this to be a light touch and have it be fun. And let’s have getting together and making, uh, making a difference. Feel fun. Um, versus feeling really extractive on people, which I think can be such a deterrent for conservation, sustainability work and kind of the preachy kind of aspect of it to have it feel more inclusive than, uh, than a pile of work. And there’ll be fun things like Patagonia will show up and we’ll be doing wader repair and, you know, trying to repurpose gear. Um, so yeah, it’ll be good. 00:18:58 Dave Stewart: Check out Montana Fly Fishing Lodge, a twenty twenty four Orvis endorsed Lodge of the year finalist, where luxury meets adventure on one point five miles of private, wild and scenic East Rosebud River frontage. Experienced world class fly fishing on numerous Yellowstone Basin streams, gourmet cuisine made from locally sourced ingredients and rustic luxury accommodations. Surrounded by breathtaking wilderness, you can book your all inclusive Montana fly fishing adventure today and discover why they are the premier destination for unforgettable fishing experiences. Head over to Montana Fly Fishing Lodge dot com right now. Experience the waters of Bristol Bay at Togiak River Lodge, where fly fishing meets Alaska’s rugged beauty. This is the place to complete the Alaska Grand Slam with all five salmon species rainbow trout, Arctic char and more. Where each day offers a new Alaskan adventure. You can visit Togiak lodge dot com right now to start planning your Bristol Bay experience with Togiak River Lodge. Yeah, I love that you use the word activations. I feel like that’s something that we talk a lot about because we work with sponsorship, you know, and I think that, you know, probably a lot of people don’t maybe don’t hear that word every day activations, right. But what does that mean to you? It sounds like you’ve got a little experience in the sponsorship space. 00:20:12 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s I think it’s looking for just like interesting and unique ways to, to engage. I mean, I think, you know, sponsorships, I think, you know, you don’t want it to feel like it’s just an exchange of funds for impressions. I think you’re, you’re thinking about how you can just really, truly add value for the folks that are coming to the event, for the brands, for, for the whole community around that. And I think if we, I think if we’re thinking about all that and centering all of that into, you know, a mindset that is like, how do we continue to, to do our sport from now long, long, long into the future? I think it’s something that everybody can essentially agree on. And, you know, and so I think we’re just looking for different fun and new ways that, uh, you know, the attendees of the event can, can interact with the brands and, you know, and so we’ve been, and also kind of getting introduction to the sport. So, you know, we tried out a bunch of different fun kind of activations that we put sponsors in charge of in, in Charleston at the last event. And, you know, and I think it just, it’s like, you know, if I meet you on the street, Dave and I walk up to you and I just immediately start selling something. Yeah. 00:21:26 Dave Stewart: You don’t want that. Nobody wants that. 00:21:28 Speaker 3: Yeah, I lose you. So I think it’s I think it’s really, truly more about just building relationships and having these activations build relationships with the community between the brands. Realize, you know what, we’re all on the same page here. And heck, you might have a piece of gear that that helps me do my sport better. 00:21:45 Dave Stewart: There you go. And I see one here. I’m not sure if you guys did this one, but fly pong, the greatest fishing game on land. What is fly pong? 00:21:54 Speaker 3: Fly pong? Well, is that the one you’re looking at for Charleston? 00:21:57 Dave Stewart: Uh. Let’s see. I’m not sure which I’m on here. I’m on one of the events here, I think. No, I think it’s coming up. Yeah. So fly. No, this is Boston. You got Boston fly pong for Boston. 00:22:06 Speaker 3: You know what? I’m gonna have to, uh, I’d have to turn that one over to my, uh, my creative partner, Grizz. 00:22:11 Dave Stewart: Yeah. Okay, good. We’ll wait. We’ll wait on that one. Well, this will be great. We’ll get people fired up. I think that obviously, you know, there’s the music is a big thing, but like you’re saying, I think the activations having fun and obviously the conservation is a big part of it. Um, I want to talk about that a little bit, but I also want to hear kind of the fishing part of what you do. It sounds like that’s taken up a lot of your time throughout the year when you’re not working on this event, is that the other chunk of time is guiding? 00:22:37 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah. For me, I’m forty one. You know, I’ve been a guide since I got out of college. So that’s always has felt like the through line as I have meandered through this industry, I think as many of us end up end up doing seasonal work, putting the pieces together. So for, for me, it’s been, you know, as a trout guide for, for a while, I started out west. I’ve, uh, you know, I started my, my striped bass guiding business a little bit over a decade ago. Um, I’ve done some international guiding in between now and then. I’ve managed some lodges for other folks. And, uh, about six years ago I started Soulfly Lodge down in the Bahamas with some great partners. My wife, Alex Griswold, who I keep calling Griz and a couple other, a couple other partners as well. And so yeah, that really is kind of a huge part of my focus is, uh, has been guiding and, uh, and the lodge, you know, now we’re, we’re just entering our, our sixth season this September. It’s a, it’s a huge focus of, uh, of my work week as well. 00:23:38 Dave Stewart: It is. Yeah. So you mentioned it down in the Berry Islands and which is, you know, I don’t I haven’t been to the Bahamas yet. We’ve talked about it for sure. And every time we do an episode, I’m like, okay, where are we at? Because it’s pretty diverse. There’s a lot of little islands and you’re on this place. Talk about that. How is the Berry Islands? How is that different than maybe some other parts of the Bahamas? 00:23:58 Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, I think about the habitat and the terrain and, you know, looking at the habitat and terrain, you can almost really get a really good idea for what kind of fish you’re going to be there. Um, the Berry islands, I say that because the barrier islands are, um, they are not a nursery fishery. You know, there’s a lot of beautiful mangrove habitat and backwater and protected places for, for fish to grow up in the mangroves and recruit into recruit into the stock and become mature fish. But the barrier islands, for whatever reason, just holds a lot of mature fish. So we talk about the berries as a very special place to hunt special fish. And so we’ve got a we’ve got a killer permit fishery that, you know, if somebody’s going out there to catch their catch, their first permit, maybe they want to go somewhere where they can throw it a school of thirty or forty fish that are that are on the smaller size. The berries are not that place. We are, you know, we are a place where you’re hunting singles, doubles, small groups of, of usually large permit. And, you know, we’ve got some, uh, some great fishing from the, from the tip of the chain all the way down to the tail of it. And the bonefishing kind of follows suit a little bit, although there is a, there’s a great abundance of, of bonefish in the berries, really healthy population. And we actually work with, um, and are partnered with a long, long time guide in the berries. He’s one of the, OG’s of the the bone fishing world down in the Bahamas. His name is Percy Darville. Percy. You know, even we just did a big review on our our last season. He’s like, I’ve, I’ve never seen more bonefish in the berries, which is really cool to see habitats in good shape. There’s, you know, I take it as it’s been some recovering from, you know, there used to be some, some netting and, uh, a lot of parts of the Bahamas. And, you know, when you net a whole school, they’re just gone. You know, they, they had that, they had that fidelity to that site and they came back there year in and year out. And, um, and we’re residents to that zone. And when those fish are netted, they’re, they’re gone. There’s no more instinct to come back to that place. But we’ve been seeing schools coming back to places that we haven’t seen them before. And I think, you know, just continuing to give, uh, to give the fishery the opportunity to repair from whatever traumas it’s had over the last one hundred years. And, and so that’s a, that’s a really cool, really cool, kind of encouraging stat for us. I think we’re really cognizant of fishing pressure. We’re a four boat lodge. We could run more, but we just want we want to keep our pressure low, take care of the fishery, give great experiences. And the bonefish. A lot of bonefish are also larger than than average too. So, you know, you look at a place like Andros that is just miles and thousands and thousands of miles of creek and mangrove habitat. You know, there’s all sorts of sizes of bonefish there. You know, we find our averages is a little bit a little bit higher. And there’s some true, true giants to to throw down there. 00:26:55 Dave Stewart: Yeah. I love when you talk about the conservation. You could hear it in your voice. You know, you’ve definitely got that passion. And I know that’s something back to Patagonia that there a lot of times, you know they choose you right for that. You can’t just, you know, everybody wants to work with Patagonia, but you can’t just, you got to do be something special, right? It sounds like you put your time in to get there. The bonefish is interesting, right? The populations do you know? Do we have a feel for like numbers, like how well they’re doing? Or is it more kind of anecdotal? Like it sounds like you’re saying here where the, the guy, you know, obviously he’s on the water so he can know when fish are better, but it seems like sometimes you hear these stories like, oh, the fishing was better back in the day. You know, are we getting some numbers on regions of like how these species are doing now? 00:27:40 Speaker 3: You know, we really aren’t. Unfortunately, it is all anecdotal on most of the flats fishing species in the Bahamas. You know, the there are some groups that are starting to get together stock assessments and using, you know, using sophisticated models for, for species like grouper and, and conch and some of these other really important kind of food fish in the Bahamas. And a lot of them are overfished. And so I think here with bonefish and with, with permit and species like that, I think it’s, it really is, you know, as a guide, as an angler that fishes these places a lot, you truly become the expert citizen scientist, you know? I mean, what you’re seeing, what you’re seeing for trends, I think it is. It’s so important for us to, to react to what we’re seeing to. That’s why, you know, we just did, you know, about a month ago, we did our, our wrap up guide meeting or just a couple weeks ago actually, uh, wrap up guide meeting and like, let’s talk about trends. Let’s talk about what we’re seeing, what places are we maybe putting a little bit too much pressure on what places have opportunity to kind of spread the pressure out? Are there other species we should be focusing on that will allow us to let up off of the bonefish at certain parts of the tide, you know, all that stuff to just be really analytical and also like build a culture around a guide team that which is so easy and natural to do because they’re living is obviously made off of the abundance and the health of these stocks that everybody’s just so bought into. Let’s truly be the watchers of the flat and let’s adjust. Let’s see how we can operate better. 00:29:18 Dave Stewart: Definitely. Yeah. I feel like these species, you hear about them. We hear about them a lot. You know we’ve talked about them. Bonefish permit. Tarpon there’s these big ones. But there’s a lot of other species out there. You know we’ve talked about some of them that don’t get as much airplay. Why do you think that is. Is it why is it these three. Seems like there’s a few other ones that are big. And you know, you could probably name what a dozen other fish that are out in your area in the saltwater. 00:29:41 Speaker 3: But for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s just like, maybe I got a good pistachio example on that. Like, I feel like I didn’t see a big like pistachio push, but all of a sudden you have this marketing engine around pistachio, right? And you can buy them absolutely everywhere. 00:29:58 Dave Stewart: It’s like peanuts are great, you know, and I love peanuts, but yeah, pistachios at some point or bananas, right. Yeah. It was a marketing push where they just went crazy on it and it worked for sure. 00:30:08 Speaker 3: And I think it’s like, you know, I think it’s very similar. I think we have a lot of mechanisms in our industry that market these fish, and whether it’s conservation groups that are totally looked up to as as leaders and like bonefish permit and tarpon are the kings of these habitats. So I think then we, we kind of internalize that and say, okay, well, that’s my goal when I go to these places, those are the fish I want to catch. But there are some incredibly cool species. Um, mutton snapper. We get a lot of mutton snapper on the flats. They are, they can be incredibly challenging, really rewarding. They fight hard, they tail, they slide around with their backs out of the water. They can live in a bunch of different elements. You know, they’re they’re such a cool fish. That’s another fish that I think is I’m just as stoked catching them on snapper as anything. 00:30:59 Dave Stewart: What are a few of those? If you had to put. You’ve got the three. We talked about, what would be a few other ones you’d put that would be worthy of catching out there in the Bahamas. 00:31:07 Speaker 3: You know, I would throw horse eye jacks in there. They have these huge eyes there again, they can be, you know, they can light up and be like a really ferocious fish, but they can also be super discerning as well. You know, you don’t get a lot of shots at them. But when you do get chances, they’re really cool. Let’s see, we’ve been starting to, uh, to find some cobia that are trailing sharks. So cobia on tiger sharks on the flat has been such a cool, a cool new thing for us. And then we also do a program, a bait and switch style program down in the Bahamas where, you know, you’re throwing a hookless plug to rocky points to, to water that holds, I mean, holds all sorts of different stuff. You could have grouper coming up, African pompano coming up to the, to the plug and you know, baiting and switching and not even being on the flat. I just see it as such a, like there’s such an opportunity to catch all sorts of different species, yellow jacks or another one that there’s some of my favorite sashimi out there, you know, so there’s, you know, programs like that I think are really interesting because it just puts people in touch with a lot of different fish that they maybe haven’t had a have an interaction with yet. 00:32:17 Dave Stewart: That’s cool. What is the, you know, your program look like for Soulfly Lodge? Do you are you doing this throughout the year or when could. If people are interested in learning more. What’s that program look like? 00:32:29 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. Um, so we, you know, there are some, definitely some distinct changes to each season down there. And we operate from September, we’ll usually open up on the best, best moon in September right around the new moon. Really focus on, on permit through those kind of late summer months. The bone fishing is also a great that time of year. And we run September all the way through early July. We usually finish up the season with a fish for change camp or two, and then we’re just this season starting to offer some mid-summer permit opportunities, and we’re doing that operating at half capacity with our two top permit guides. So we’re only running two boats instead of four. This is just all about trying to create a really cool experience, not worrying about the financials, because running two boats as a lodge is not the way to make a profitable business by any means, but it is a really cool experience. You’ve got half as much pressure. You’ve got top guides out there. So that’s kind of our cadence September to to really kind of to the end of June. And then we might do some special trips in the summer focusing on permit. 00:33:39 Dave Stewart: That’s awesome. No, it’s great to hear. I feel like that is a part of it. Like you could, you could go bigger. I’m guessing you could build more and put more boats out there. But you found what is it about the four boats that you have there? You know, it’s just is it the right amount for that area? You’ve kind of decided based on your knowledge of kind of the fishery. 00:33:57 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and that was kind of one of the big as we were kind of visiting the berries and trying to put work into understanding the fishery. And, you know, is this a place that’s viable to have a fishing lodge operating like we are? You know, that was a really a big we thought a lot about that. And I think we wanted to start with four because it felt like we were, if anything, we could add a boat if we felt like we were, you know, we needed to. We felt like at four, we have a really good chance that we’re not going to get into this and say, you know what? We got to cut a boat or two, right? And at that point, you might as well not be doing a fishing lodge. You know, you might as well, you might as well pick something else to work on. And so with four, you know, we got into it. And, and I think the only times that it feels like the fisheries small were, you know, we need a little bit more space is when it’s blowing thirty and the weather’s the weather’s tough, you know, and I think, I think that’s honestly, I think anywhere I fished when the weather’s when it’s blowing thirty fisheries feel small because you just can’t move around, you know. 00:34:57 Dave Stewart: Right. 00:34:58 Speaker 3: And learning the tides there has been huge. So we really have really have learned a ton about the tides there. There is potential for big tidal swings in the berries or very small tidal swings. So it’s just it’s all about kind of learning, learning how the fishery operates at every different stage of the tide and, and making sure people are understanding. I think we’re pretty forward about the experience down there. And, and we really, in our fifth year, we now have just such a great, uh, a great base of clients that have kind of fallen in love with it. About half our clients, you know, about half of our clients every year now are, are repeat clients. So we’ve really kind of built this, uh, this core community that is just like fallen in love with the team, falling in love with the community. We, we keep a community in conservation fund going that lots of guests contribute to. And, and we get to do some cool stuff on the, on the island as well. 00:35:48 Dave Stewart: That’s awesome. Was it harder getting into this to build the lodge or to build the music events? 00:35:55 Speaker 3: Oh man. Oh boy. I might say the it’s funny because because Griz has really been like our. The the tip of the spear with the vents, and I’ve been the tip of the spear with the lodge. So I’d say lodge. 00:36:07 Dave Stewart: Yeah, right. The lodge. Yeah. 00:36:09 Speaker 3: Part of it for me is because it’s been, you know, it’s I moved there with my wife, with our eight week old son. 00:36:16 Dave Stewart: Oh, wow. So you. Yeah. You moved down to the during the season, you’re there with your family and young, young family for sure. 00:36:22 Speaker 3: And so we moved there with like, all right, we got to renovate this place and get it, get it ready and we’ve got to build a following and we’ve got to do, you know, literally everything A to Z and also host and be here to manage. And, uh, so for me, like I look back on my last five years as a little bit of a whirlwind in that sense, but, but they both certainly have their, have their challenges. It just takes a lot to run the lodge. We’ve got about we got about seventeen people on the team that, uh, that pull the experience together and the berries. 00:36:52 Dave Stewart: Oh, right. Yeah. You got a good team there. Gotcha. Wow. This is cool. So, I mean, it sounds like between the two, I mean, this is probably keeping you busy enough. Do you have any other event planning, uh, you know, plans in the future, are you going to build out more of these music events or are you going to stick to these two venues? 00:37:09 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we’re going to we’re going to try and add one, probably add one more in the next couple of years and just be really thoughtful on what that location is. And I think once we get to three, we’re just gonna, we’re gonna stick with that and we’re going to try and just, we’re not going to try and put those, those three on the back burner and, and just keep working on growing. I think we’re just going to keep trying to make those, those three core anchor events better. And, uh, you know, and just really listen, really try and add more depth to those experiences, go a lot deeper and just see where it takes us. 00:37:40 Dave Stewart: Are the people that are going to the lodge that are guests at the lodge. Are they also attending the music festival? Do you know about that? 00:37:48 Speaker 3: Yeah, we are getting some crossover, um, which is actually it’s been really, it’s been really cool. We had, um, you know, one short story, we had a couple that that came to the lodge, they actually, I believe they actually won it in an auction. 00:38:02 Dave Stewart: Oh, nice. 00:38:03 Speaker 3: At one of our events. And they came, they came down and, uh, you know, they had a blast. And then they, they saw what was going on in Charleston. They hopped on a plane and came down and we did another raffle and they won a trip to, to Soulfly Lodge again. Oh, wow. It’s been, it’s been really cool to kind of see some of this crossover. And honestly, they made such a big effort to come from Michigan to this event. Then they won a trip back to Soulfly Lodge and we were so, so excited just to see both of the two. 00:38:33 Dave Stewart: Uh, that’s amazing. 00:38:34 Speaker 3: Businesses kind of sharing some, uh, connection there. And, but yeah, I think that’s only going to grow for the future of just like, you know, we are doing little cross marketing at the, at the lodge, letting people know what’s going on with events. And, uh, so we’ll have some crossover. 00:38:50 Dave Stewart: That’s cool that, that must feel good. I know that we do some of that too, where we give away, we do some events and we’re giving away trips. I, in fact, we just did went up to Scott Lake Lodge for Northern Pike up in Saskatchewan and. And Paul Plumb shout out to Paul. He won that trip. And you know, it’s pretty cool. Because it’s random, you know. So you don’t know who is going to be the winner. And it just turns out that Paul was this great guy. You know, we had this epic trip and we’re going to be fishing together. So and actually, Paul’s already planning a trip where we’re going to go out and fish for steelhead. We’re going to take the lodge. The lodge owner out for a fishing to our home water, you know what I mean. And so, you know, I feel like it’s this really it’s tough to find, you know, kind of it feels like in our space, you kind of somebody into fly fishing, they’re kind of it feels like they’re good people. Do you find that too with some with your events? 00:39:37 Speaker 3: I do too. I mean, I think it’s just, you know, I feel like you’re just a lot of time, you’re just finding these great people that are just, you know, they’re connecting on the water. I mean, it’s, I, I fully agree. I love this industry. I never want to be anywhere else. 00:39:53 Dave Stewart: When it comes to high quality flies that truly elevate your fly fishing game. Drift Hook dot com is the trusted source you need. I’ve been using drift hooks expertly selected flies for a while now and they never disappoint. Plus, they stand behind their products with a money back guarantee. Are you ready to upgrade your fly box? Head over to Drift Hook dot com today and use the code swing at checkout to get fifteen percent off your first order. That’s drift hook. D r I f t h o o k dot com. Don’t miss out if Belize is on your bucket list for a trip. Take a look at Blue Bonefish Lodge. You’ll be fishing more than four hundred square miles of flats right along the Belize Barrier Reef. 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Um, they’re doing some good stuff in the space, obviously. So as we start to get into this, tell me this, this is kind of the rapid fire round. What is for you on these events? You know, I think success is a good way to look at it, right? What is success? How does that when you look at this Boston event coming up, how do you gauge what is a successful event? 00:41:43 Speaker 3: To me, it’s two things I think, you know, is the vibe there, which I think is really hard to put your finger on. 00:41:50 Dave Stewart: Yeah, you got to be there for that, right? You got to get the feel, the vibe. 00:41:54 Speaker 3: You got to be there. And I think that if the vibe is right, which is such a vague thing, it’s such a feeling. I think that is the biggest litmus test. I think if we’re looking back and people are like, wow, that was that was special. That felt like something different. I think that is in a nutshell what we’re going for. And of course, like we, we want to be able to do another one the next year. So I think having, you know, the next piece of success, I think comes with, you know, just like, did we draw the folks in to make this worthy of doing it the next year? And that’s why we were so happy to sell out in Charleston in May. You know, we were like, oh, amazing. Like this is like, that gives you now the horsepower to keep going. 00:42:37 Dave Stewart: How soon do these sell out? Is this is somebody listening now? And they’re really excited about maybe the Boston event or the next one. Is it important to get on it right away or do they have time? 00:42:46 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it is important to get on it early. But, you know, I think a lot of people these days are making their decisions a couple weeks out. Yeah. 00:42:55 Dave Stewart: Right. Right. 00:42:57 Speaker 3: I think you can’t I think that is just the nature of it. I mean, Charleston, like there were so many ticket sales on the day of the event of like. 00:43:05 Dave Stewart: Oh, cool. It’s not like a trip. It’s not like booking a lodge trip, right? Where people are booking out a year or more in advance. 00:43:12 Speaker 3: Exactly. And I think especially to a lot of the folks that are focused on the music are like, oh, hey, we got, we got it’s a nice weekend. I know this, uh, I know these bands that are gonna be playing here, boom. I’m just going to show up and buy a ticket at the door. So, you know, we, I think you’re hoping to like draw as much of your core community in as you can, like early on. If you’re a part of that community, we’d love to see like some pre ticket sales and just see that there’s some momentum. But also we are, we totally know that it’s going to be the last two weeks is really going to be, you know, at least half of the sales, um, on tickets, if not more. 00:43:46 Dave Stewart: Do you guys have some adult beverages at the, at the music festival? 00:43:50 Speaker 3: We do. Yeah. We’re going to have, uh, we’re going to have, you know, we had some really cool collaborations in Charleston. We had Oxbow down there. Our good buddy Tim Adams had some beautiful beers to drink. There were all sorts of other great libations there. Cisco Brewers is, is, you know, we’re partnering at, uh, at their location, who they’ve been just such a powerhouse of putting out awesome microbrew beer. You know, they formed in Nantucket and really cool, really cool, uh, vibe and, uh, and yeah, so we’ll have all sorts of, you know, that’s another big piece of it is just having locally brewed beer, having local foods and just kind of have that try and tie into kind of like our, our marine story as well. 00:44:33 Dave Stewart: Picking brands and partners that are, that are, have that conservation mindset too. Is that, is that something you go into when you’re looking at some of the event partners? 00:44:41 Speaker 3: We do definitely. I think, you know, I think that’s just another, another area where you can, you know, you can be, uh, you can be wise. so you know. Nemo is another, another brand. An outdoor brand makes tent sleeping bags, backpacks. They’re gonna they just signed on. They just have a incredible sustainability and giving back to the community. So they’re, you know, they’re a local company up here in New Hampshire. I’m in Maine, but they’re, they’re really close to me and over the border in New Hampshire. So I think picking, you know, picking again, it’s just like, I think we just want to. It just makes sense. You know, I think we’re trying to operate these events in a certain way and picking, uh, picking brands and sponsors that, that see the world the same way. I think just gives us all a little bit more power to the mission. 00:45:25 Dave Stewart: Love it. You mentioned community quite a bit on this. Um, what would be your tip on community building a community? It sounds like you guys have done a good job with that. What would you tell somebody if they’re struggling a little bit at, you know, building their community? 00:45:38 Speaker 3: You know, I think not being afraid to be really forward about who you are and, and how you feel about the world and, and what you care and what your values are. I think having a really clear sense of what is going to attract and draw community is a huge part of building that community. And, you know, I think about as I started, I started guiding, you know, you’re trying to build a book of clients and you know, what makes you different? I mean, okay, I’m a striped bass guide. Like, I don’t want to lead with that. I’m just a striped bass guide because I’m competing against everybody. The bait fishermen, the, you know, and tackle the I wanted to be very specific about like, what is the community that I’m building? I’m building a community around anglers that are watching closely to the changes that are happening on the water and they’re willing to, um, to take, take action to, to speak up in public comment periods and protect what we have. And also we’re, we’re fishing in very specific ways. You know, we’re, we’re sight fishing in shallow water for striped bass. You know, we’re trying to, we’re trying to have a light touch on the fishery fish in a myriad of different elements. So I think, you know, being again, I guess kind of summing that up is just being really clear about what your values are and why you’re building this community. And I think that’s what we’ve tried to take into, uh, the Soulfly co events is, you know, be forward about the, uh, the ethos. And I think that’s going to more easily attract your crowd. 00:47:06 Dave Stewart: Perfect. Well, take us out of here. You mentioned also the Saltwater Guides Association. Maybe give us a little insight on that. Are they. What areas are they covering? You know, because I mean, when you think saltwater, right, you’ve got a lot of saltwater around the world. Describe that. Is this is this regional? How do they break up? How does that group break up things around the world? 00:47:26 Speaker 3: Yeah. So we’re we’re really focused from Maine to the Texas coast. So, you know, all the marine elements from from Maine to the to the Texas coast, essentially, you know, and we work really heavily on, you know, one of the things that that we can affect a big change on is overfishing management of our stocks. The science that is, is created and goes into a part of managing these stocks. So Asghar is is all about science advocacy and education. And so we we were working on striped bass, um, Atlantic bonito, false albacore, Jack crevalle um, redfish and in multiple, multiple states, Jes tarpon, all sorts of different species. And, you know, it really kind of stems from we’ve got a, uh, we’ve got a team of about ten consultants that are all experts in their field, whether they’re, whether they’re scientists or fishing guides, you know, they just bring kind of this on the water approach to, to what we’re doing. And, and, you know, there’s a lot changing in our fisheries in general. But one thing that we all have power of is, is overfishing and Management and and being more aggressive to protect the fish that we have left is one of the, you know, one of the most essential levers that we can actually affect change on, you know, changing environment, you know, warming waters, climate change, all those, all those things are much bigger things that we that are harder to affect short term change on, but adding, you know, funding science that is going to go into a stock assessment that will actually save more fish or have us manage them more sustainably, is really kind of all about what, what ASG is founded on. And just a real quick example, you know, false albacore, their, their fish that is, you know, they’re, they’re incredibly important to so much of the East Coast. And we didn’t have a lick of science on them. So ASG launched the Jack project. And we or I mean, excuse me. Um, well, that’s a different project that’s very similar, but the false albacore project, the Alb project. And we started tagging fish with telemetry tags. We’re able to track track to particular Albie going from Nantucket to Key West in about fifty five days. And you’re having all these light bulb moments go off of like, this is a shared stock. This is a shared stock of fish from Cape Cod down to Florida. So if if these fish are being harvested in Florida for, for bait, those are the same. Those are the same fish that somebody’s paying a thousand dollars a day to a guy in Cape Cod to go out and try and catch and release. And, you know, you’re just realizing like the impact that, okay, these fish, there’s no science on them. There’s no management for them. Let’s start getting some management for these fish to just put some guardrails in place so we don’t see just another species start to slide and become unavailable. And I think once these species go away, people lose their connection to the coast. They lose their connection to the water, they choose a different activity. And so I think it’s so essential to maintain this abundance in our saltwater fisheries so we can just keep that connection to the water. So, you know, that’s been pretty cool with the the project that has rolled up into now we have management in multiple states for, for false albacore, which never they’ve never had any management. And now we’ve got some great guardrails in place. We can watch this species closer, protect them for the future. So it’s cool work. It’s really important work. And it’s really it’s all done with, uh, with the resource and the fish put first. It’s not about like, um, it’s not about guides, it’s not about anglers, it’s about abundance in the water. And when we have abundance, we all win. We all get access to, to beautiful experience. 00:51:21 Dave Stewart: Yeah, that’s a great example. Another species that we were fishing for, and this might not apply directly, but we were up in Newfoundland fishing for Atlantic salmon. And I know there’s a long history there of that. But is that a species? Because that’s obviously a anadromous species that spends life in the salt. I’m guessing somewhere in that area. Is that something that is just not a species on the list, or just a different deal than what you guys focus on? 00:51:45 Speaker 3: Yeah, we haven’t done a ton of Atlantic salmon work. And I think big, big reason is that, you know, we are we do have to have some focus. And so we’re really focused on kind of the fisheries around the US. I think it’s areas where we’ve got the relationships and the management machine. We’ve got the advocates. And, you know, they’re unfortunately an endangered species in the US and you can’t fish for them. The only couple rivers that Atlantic salmon are left in in Maine are the Kennebec and the Penobscot. And you know, there’s some really cool I think the most important work being done for for those fish is the is dam removal, which there’s been success on the Penobscot and the Kennebec has the Nature Conservancy bought the four dams on the Kennebec. So it’s really exciting that those four dams are going to come out and give Atlantic salmon a huge, huge leg up. So there’s some of those are, you know, we want to work on stuff that we can affect change on. And salmon are a tricky one. Salmon. 00:52:42 Dave Stewart: Yeah, they’re a tricky one. 00:52:43 Speaker 3: Tricky one. 00:52:44 Dave Stewart: Yeah. They’re tricky. Yeah. And it wasn’t a big range. You know you mentioned the range from the north all the way down to Texas. I mean Atlantic salmon. I think their range is kind of more north right, than New York. And it’s not as big of a range as all these other species you’re talking about for sure. 00:52:59 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I mean, and I actually was a part of helping to start a, a lodge up in Quebec a few years ago called Gaspé Coastal. And so I ended. 00:53:07 Dave Stewart: Up right, right. Sure. We heard them. 00:53:09 Speaker 3: I ended up getting this, this wild education on Atlantic salmon. 00:53:13 Dave Stewart: Oh, you did. So you’ve got some knowledge here. 00:53:15 Speaker 3: And so I’ve built a lot and, you know, you know, built a lot of knowledge over the past five years on that. And, you know, the interactions with striped bass up there, they have got their native population of striped bass that are. 00:53:26 Dave Stewart: Oh, right. Predators, predators up their predators. 00:53:29 Speaker 3: But they’ve lived together in unison for millennia. Um, but, you know, it’s like once there’s It starts to be, uh, abundance falls and there’s competing stocks that have lived in harmony for thousands of years. You know, it’s, they’re an easy scapegoat. And so it’s but, you know, I think it really is a lot of it’s a lot of it’s really about habitat. It’s about climate change. You know, I mean, years of low water, there’s just a lot of things that are just huge, big picture problems that, uh, I feel for those fish. 00:53:59 Dave Stewart: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. That’s one of those species. Like all, they all need love, you know, and I think we got to keep on it and, uh, and hope, hope we can, uh, you know, make some small changes. I think you’re right. The fishing, though, is a big part of it. Whether that’s in Alaska where they’re talking about ocean trawlers, you know, it’s, it’s a big part because the fishing, you know, if you if you don’t have the fish returning, that’s a big part. What is the biggest fishing impacts for those species you’re talking about in your area for the focus? Like, are there big boats out there netting fish or describe that? Do you know what the number one impact is? 00:54:33 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of it. You know, I think it’s removing more fish than than the fisheries can sustain. And I think our management processes in the US have, you know, whether it’s a number of the different commissions or councils and poor science that goes into it a lot of times is, you know, there’s a lot of special interests out there that even when the populations are sliding, they find ways to continue harvesting and harvesting at unsustainable levels. So, you know, take striped bass, for example. I mean, it’s a when that fishery is booming, it’s, uh, you know, it’s an eight to ten billion dollar fishery with recreational anglers being able to, when it’s healthy, be able to take a step onto a rock or a beach and have a good chance of catching a striper. You know, when there’s abundance for them. But we’ve watched overfishing occur for the last ten, twelve years. You know, we’ve watched this slide on the stock and we’ve been raising the flag and we’ve been sounding the alarms and helping the community kind of pick apart the science and understand the stock assessments and try and get engaged to help. And a lot of time we’re raising public comment that is in support for, you know, increased regulations, killing less fish. But, you know, you’re just up against so many different players and managers that managers are getting a lot of pressure to continue harvesting. So you’re even if we get the public comment says that, hey, we all want to take a reduction. It doesn’t happen all the time. And so it’s simple. It’s a lot of people point to these complicated problems with striped bass. It’s just we’re killing too many. Then, uh, then the stock can replenish. And we’ve also had some failed spawns in the past seven years. So we’ve had very, very poor spawns, you know, I mean, it’s, and a lot of people are able to go out and catch their biggest striped bass of their life. I mean, we caught a handful of fish over forty inches yesterday. Incredible experience. But you have to understand there’s not a small fish to go after. And that’s all we could have corrected this. Managers could have corrected this years ago, but we just kind of have a tendency to just like milking these stocks until, until they get to a position where they really have a hard time recovering. So, and a lot of that is like, you know, how you fix that? I think it’s continuing to have like managers in place that care that truly want to manage these stocks for abundance, for all of recreational anglers, for commercial anglers, for people that want to catch and keep a fish. You know, there’s ways that we can all operate and not have this feeling of scarcity, but it’s just about proactive management and, uh, and a lot of times we just don’t get that. It’s a little crazy. 00:57:11 Dave Stewart: Yeah. We gotta keep up the fight, right? That’s the great thing is that that’s why having people like you, ambassadors with Patagonia and everybody else out there, we just got to keep fighting. You know, it’s those small wins that actually, I think a lot of people don’t realize it. You know, you get down, you’re like, oh, you know, what can I do? I’m just one person. But I feel like it is those small wins that you just keep going and you know, and then you get a bigger win. And then that builds. Do you find that that that’s some of the stuff you’re seeing out there with your group? 00:57:37 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think you really just need, you need some hope to, uh, you know, to continue asking people to step up. And it’s really demoralizing when we have a public comment period and people step up and, and we don’t get the result, even though the, the comments are there. So I think, yeah, you definitely like getting these wins. I think false albacore. That was a big win. Jack Crevalle that’s another one that has the potential to be a really, uh, another it’s a fish that is, uh, a household name in the US and in the southeast and Texas and Louisiana. And a lot of people are watching those fish disappear. No science on them, no management. That’s another one where like, holy smokes, we can learn about these fish. We can learn about their habits, understand that there are shared stock, understand like spawning habits and, and protect them really effectively. And once people start seeing that abundance come back, I think, you know, that is an incredible model, I think for, uh, giving anglers, like the proof is in the pudding of, uh, you know, we did the science, we did the advocacy. We’ve got some of the, some proper management to ensure that these fish can stay abundant. And I think those are the biggest things, you know, if you can accomplish that kind of stuff, you’re like, all right, cool. We’ve got we got something here. 00:58:54 Dave Stewart: Nice. Love it. Nice. Kyle. Well, I think we can leave it there for today. We’ll definitely stay in touch with you. And I think we could send everybody out to Soulfly dot com. They can check in if they want to support what we’re talking about. This conservation. They can go to your event, and that’ll be a good way to get some music, uh, you know, get some connection and support conservation. So yeah, I appreciate all your time today. Thanks for everything. 00:59:14 Speaker 3: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on. It was a great chat. I appreciate it, Dave. 00:59:19 Dave Stewart: All right. Uh, I think we hit on that pretty well. It’s all about community and we know that that’s important. That’s important to you. And if you’re interested in joining a community check in with Kyle, definitely would love to hear if anybody’s interested in this event. I think this might be something we can build a meetup around with our community as well. So check in with me, Dave at web dot com, or go to webflow dot com slash pro to join our community and, and get access and help us guide where we’re going next on trips and events. We got a big one this week as far as episodes. Paul Plumb is going to be on this week. Paul is the winner. We mentioned in this episode he is the winner of the trip to Salt Lake Lodge. This is where we went for Northern Pike Lake, Trout and Grayling. And then Paul is just a great guy. He is a steelhead angler, spey caster through and through and, and I’m excited to share that episode of Paul’s experience. And, and we’re going to be doing some good stuff with Paul coming up this year. All right. That’s beyond the giveaway. As always. We try to support conservation on all of our events. So if you have a conservation partner we haven’t touched with or talked to yet, please send me an email, Dave at web dot com and I’ll work on getting that together for you. I want to leave you with this today. If the vibe is right, that in a nutshell, is what we’re going for. There you go. If the vibe is right, that is what we’re going for. Shout out to Kyle on this one and we’re excited to, uh, connect with you. So if you haven’t yet, if you’re new to the podcast, please send me an email Dave at web dot com and I’d love to hear where you’re coming from. And I hope you have a great morning, great afternoon or evening, wherever in this country you are. I appreciate you for listening today and we’ll talk to you on that next one. 01:01:06 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly dot com.

Conclusion with Captain Kyle Schaefer on Fly Fishing Community

Capt. Kyle Schaefer’s conversation is a reminder that fly fishing is about so much more than the fish. It’s about the people we meet, the stories we share, and the communities we build along the way through Soul Fly Co. Capt. Kyle is bringing those pieces together by blending music, conservation, and unforgettable fishing experiences into something that welcomes both lifelong anglers and newcomers.

If there’s one takeaway from this conversation, it’s that a strong fly-fishing community isn’t built overnight; it’s built through shared experiences, genuine connections, and a commitment to protecting the waters we all enjoy.

What are you doing to help grow your own fly fishing community, and who would you invite to share the experience with you?

     

960 | Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead with Jim Sens

Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead with Jim Sens

Experience doesn’t end the learning; it just changes the questions you ask on the water. Today I’m joined by Jim Sens of Deadman’s Guide Service to talk about why swinging flies for trout and summer steelhead has become one of his favorite ways to catch fish.

Jim spends much of his season guiding anglers on Oregon’s McKenzie and Willamette rivers, where he blends summer steelhead, trout, Spey casting, dry flies, nymphing, and wet flies into one complete day on the water.

We also get into swinging flies for trout and summer steelhead from a drift boat, the trout flies that are always in Jim’s box, and how he fishes seams and tailouts throughout the season.

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead with Jim Sens

Show Notes with Jim Sens on Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead

Jim shares how he approaches Oregon’s McKenzie and Willamette rivers throughout the summer steelhead season. We cover Spey gear, trout tactics, favorite flies, guide strategies, drift boat techniques, and the small adjustments that consistently put anglers on fish.

How Jim Sens Got Started with Spey Casting

(01:11) Jim didn’t grow up swinging flies. After moving to Oregon about 20 years ago, he got into fly fishing and spent his summers fishing dry flies for trout on the North Umpqua.

One day, everything changed. He watched an angler making smooth Spey casts across the river. The angler never hooked a fish, but the casting alone caught Jim’s attention.

That moment sent Jim straight to the fly shop for his first Spey rod. He taught himself to cast, learning through plenty of trial and error. Jim says the learning curve is steep, especially if you’re figuring it out on your own.

Over time, he realized that understanding lines, heads, sink tips, and running lines is all part of becoming a better Spey caster.

Summer Steelhead on the McKenzie River

(03:42) Jim says the McKenzie is more than just a trout river. Summer steelhead start showing up around June, with August and September being the “magic hour” of the season. If the rains hold off, fishing can stay good into October or even November.

This year, Jim says he’s finding steelhead in many of the places he expects, from classic tailouts to smaller holding water throughout the river.

On guided trips, Jim likes to start the day chasing steelhead before switching to trout. That gives anglers a chance to try several techniques, including:

  • Swinging flies for steelhead
  • Dry flies
  • Dry-dropper rigs
  • Indicator nymphing
  • Swinging wet flies for trout

Since many of his guests are new to fly fishing, Jim enjoys letting them experience different methods and discover which one they like best.

Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead with Jim Sens

Why the McKenzie Is Different for Steelhead

(6:08)Jim says the McKenzie fishes differently than many well-known steelhead rivers. A lot of the best holding water is hard to reach on foot, so a drift boat often gives anglers the best chance to cover it.

Instead of having anglers wade and cast through every run, Jim carefully rows the boat while they keep the line under tension. His job is to position the boat so the fly swings naturally through the holding water, giving anglers the chance to feel the grab and fight the fish on a Spey rod.

For trout, it’s a different story. Many runs are easy to wade, making them perfect for traditional Spey casting and swinging wet flies.

Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead with Jim Sens

Jim’s Go-To Trout Spey Setup

(8:41) Jim likes to keep his setup simple. His favorite rod is a 4-weight G. Loomis rod, which is light enough for trout but still has the backbone to handle an unexpected summer steelhead. For guided trips, though, he usually puts beginners on a 6-weight because it’s easier to control bigger fish.

His setup includes:

Jim also explains that getting your fly to the right depth isn’t just about changing sink tips. By adjusting your casting angle, you can fish deeper or keep the fly higher in the water without changing your setup.

Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead with Jim Sens

Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead: Where to Fish Around Eugene

(11:24) Jim says the Willamette is a great choice if you don’t have a boat. It has more parks and public access, making it easier to fish from the bank.

When he’s targeting steelhead or swinging flies for trout, Jim usually fishes the upper Willamette above the McKenzie confluence. Anglers with a drift boat can also float from the McKenzie into the Willamette, where there are opportunities for both trout and steelhead.

Late summer is one of Jim’s favorite times to fish. He says once August arrives, things really start to pick up, and he and other local guides have been finding fish in lots of good water.

The Story Behind Dead Man’s Guide Service

(13:01) Jim named his guide service after Dead Man’s Ferry, a run on the McKenzie River. It was the first place he and a few close friends spent time swinging flies together, and those memories stuck with him. He says the place has always been important to him, and it also happens to be a pretty cool name.

Jim has heard different stories about how Dead Man’s Ferry got its name, but he doesn’t know which one is true, so he doesn’t repeat them.

Before moving to Oregon about 20 years ago, Jim traveled the country as a professional body piercer. A friend encouraged him to visit Oregon, and the first time he saw the McKenzie River, he knew he wanted to stay. He’s called it home ever since.

The Fly Shops and Patterns That Shaped Jim’s Fishing

(15:15) Jim talks about the role Eugene’s fly shops have played in his career, especially his long relationship with The Caddis Fly Shop. Over the years, he’s guided trips, filmed tying videos, tied commercial fly orders, and recreated hard-to-find local patterns for customers.

The 20 Incher Jig Fly

Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead with Jim Sens - Imporved Jigged Tungsten 20 incher
Improved Jigged Tungsten 20 Incher
Photo via https://www.caddisflyshop.com/

One pattern he knows especially well is the 20 Incher Jig Fly, created by Chris Daughters. Jim tied more than 110 dozen of them last year alone and says it’s one of his favorite attractor nymphs for trout.

He likes fishing the 20 Incher Jig:

  • Below a Chubby Chernobyl
  • Behind a Pat’s Rubber Legs
  • Under a Mega Prince
  • Under an indicator in deeper runs

Want to see Jim at the vise? Check out this video on YouTube to watch him tie the 20 Incher Jig Fly:

Jim’s Go-To Trout Rig and a Typical Guide Day

(18:26) Jim says trout on the McKenzie spend much of the summer looking up, so a Chubby Chernobyl with a dropper is one of his favorite setups. When he needs to fish deeper water, he keeps his nymph rig simple:

  • 9-foot 3X leader
  • Micro swivel
  • Mega Prince
  • 20 Incher Jig tied 12 to 18 inches below

A typical guide day starts by swinging flies for summer steelhead. After fishing a few of Jim’s confidence runs, clients switch to trout and rotate through dry flies, Chubby-dropper rigs, nymphing, and swinging wet flies.

If conditions look right later in the day, Jim may stop and fish another steelhead run before heading off the river.

Jim’s Favorite Summer Steelhead Gear

(22:21)When Jim heads out for summer steelhead, he keeps his setup simple. His confidence flies are:

  • Silveynator 
  • Bunny leeches

He usually fishes pink and purple on one rod and olive and chartreuse on the other. Jim likes the Sylvanas because it’s simple to tie, catches fish, and is easy to replace when one gets lost.

Over the years, he’s also changed his leader material, moving from 10- or 12-pound Maxima to 12-pound Seaguar fluorocarbon. And when it comes to reels, Jim admits he’s a big fan of Bauer. He owns several and especially likes the older models built in Ashland, Oregon.

Watch Jim tie his Silveynator Variation Fly Pattern, one of his go-to flies for summer steelhead:

Fishing the McKenzie from a Drift Boat

(23:45) Jim talks about Oregon’s rich drift boat history and why the McKenzie is considered the birthplace of the modern drift boat. He also shares a few of the builders that have helped shape that tradition:

  • ClackaCraft
  • Koffler Boats
  • Willie Boats
  • Sawyer Oars

Jim currently guides from a 16′ ClackaCraft Big Eddy, which gives him access to water that’s difficult to reach from shore. That flexibility lets him adjust throughout the day, whether he’s chasing steelhead, fishing dry flies, nymphing, or swinging for trout.

About Jim Sens

Jim Sens is the owner of Deadman’s Guide Service, based near Eugene, Oregon. He guides anglers for trout and summer steelhead on the McKenzie and Willamette rivers, combining traditional trout techniques with Spey fishing and swung flies throughout the season.


Connect with Jim Sens

Website: https://www.deadmansguideservice.com/
Instagram: @jimsens

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Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
WFS 960 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave : Experience doesn’t end the learning, it just changes the questions you ask on the water. Today we’re joined by Jim Sens of Dead Man’s Guide Service. Jim spends much of his season guiding anglers for trout and summer steelhead, and today he shares why swinging flies has become one of his favorite ways to cover water. Teach new anglers, and find fish that many people overlook. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing. How to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Today, Jim is going to talk about how he fishes summer steelhead from a drift boat in places where most people can’t get to. He’s going to talk about the trout flies that rarely leave his box, including the twenty incher, the McKenzie Green Caddis, and the slump buster. We’re gonna find out why seams and tail outs consistently hold fish throughout the season and how to fish them. His biggest mistakes anglers make after feeling a grab on the swing. Plus, how he blends swinging flies, dry flies and nymphing into one productive day on the water. All right, you can find Jim at Dead Man’s Guide service dot com. Here he is. Jim sends. How you doing, Jim? 00:01:09 Jim: I’m doing great Dave. How are you this morning? 00:01:11 Dave : I’m doing good. Yeah, I’m doing better. Now that we’re chatting here, we’re going to talk about some of the stuff you do with Dead Man’s Guide service. And we’re going to talk about swinging flies for I think steelhead trout. We’re going to talk a little bit about Oregon, maybe the Mackenzie and probably your history as well, because I always love getting a background. I know off air we were just talking about Pike. We just got back from a big pike trip up north. And you’ve done a little bit of that. It sounds like when you’re younger, but maybe start us off on the swinging flies. When did you first. Is that something that kind of started more recently and Dead Man’s Guide Service? You’ve been doing this a while. 00:01:43 Jim: Uh, when I moved to Oregon about twenty years ago, I picked up fly fishing relatively quickly, and then I was done on the North Umpqua, just fishing trout, just with a little dry fly during the summer. And I saw a guy out there. I have no clue who he is. I would love to run across him again, but I saw him spey casting and I just instantly was like, I just sat there for like a half an hour just watching him cast. Did he catch anything? No, but he was just casting. Yeah. And just watching him do like really fancy roll casts is what I refer to him now. It was, uh, it sparked something in me, and I instantly drove back into Eugene, went to the fly shop and bought my first Spey rod and started banging my face against how to Spey cast and learn all the different casts and lines. And it’s a steep learning curve when you’re getting into it by yourself, man. 00:02:35 Dave : Yeah. 00:02:36 Jim: It’s gotten way easier over the years, but it’s still a pretty steep learning curve until you get into it and you actually, like, start figuring it out and understanding. It’s really understanding the lines and what running line you like better, what head you like better, what’s best for different sink tips like, man, you end up learning way more than you even think that you’re going to. 00:02:59 Dave : Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. We had, you know, we mentioned we just got off of this trip up in northern Canada. We were fishing for Pike, northern Pike, but there was also lake trout. We caught on the swing and we caught a big grayling. And they had this. We didn’t bring any. I didn’t bring a spey rod because I knew, you know, the single hand thing was going to be the, you know, the thing. But Jason at the lodge had a spade rod. He had a four weight, I think it was a Redington. And it was a sweet little setup. They brought it out in the boat that day and I fished it for Grayling swinging and we like it was for a second there. Every cast. And some of them were up to twenty inches. Right? So this is fun. But the rod was perfect. You know, it was this perfect spey rod. It was the perfect line match up, like you said. Is that something that you’re, you know, for trout? Is that weight wise? Is that the range you’re at for weight for swinging for trout. 00:03:42 Jim: On the Mackenzie. I love a four weight, especially during this, well, pretty much all year. But during the summer, because you’ll be swinging wet flies for trout and all of a sudden you’ll hook into a steelhead on the Mackenzie or the Willamette. And it’s nice to have a little bit more of a backbone to it than going with like a two weight or a three weight Trout Spey, you know? 00:04:01 Dave : Right. That’s cool. So you can hook steelhead while fishing. So what is the time wise? When do you have an opportunity to hook a steelhead or trout out there? 00:04:08 Jim: Uh, pretty much as soon as June rolls around, there’s fish poking around and we’re just coming into that like August, September, magic hour. And it’ll go all the way into September, October, November, even if we don’t get any rain. Get enough rain to blow the river out and force the fish to go back downstream. So we kind of have a pretty good long summer steelhead, and we don’t have a winter run on the Mackenzie or the Middle Fork of the Willamette here in town. But, uh, the summer runs are pretty fun. And we, we’re having some good fish this year too. So I’m seeing fish in almost every tail out or little spot that I normally find them in every time I’m on the river, so it’s pretty awesome. 00:04:52 Dave : Wow. Do you do more with your guide service? More of the trout swinging or more of the steelhead, or is it kind of equal? 00:04:59 Jim: Uh, I with my guide day, I especially this time of the year, I try to start the day. If the guest wants it, I start the day swinging flies for steelhead and then we’ll transition into trout. But when we transition into trout, we’ll do dry flies, dry droppers, we’ll do nymphing. We’ll do swinging wet flies. I try to cover everything because I take a lot of people out that have never fly fished before, which most guides do. So it’s nice that they get to get a little taste of everything and kind of it sends them in a direction that they enjoy. If they really enjoy nymphing or dry fly, you know what I mean? Or swinging flies, it helps them. At least they get a little basis on the day of what they really enjoyed the best, right? 00:05:45 Dave : Yeah, get a taste of it. And so this is cool. So you’re doing a little bit of both. And I’m always comparing it to the other steelhead rivers around, you know, because you’ve got the Deschutes. You mentioned the North Umpqua, the the rogue. You know, there’s a lot of these steelhead, the rivers that have summer steelhead. But I feel like the Mackenzie maybe doesn’t get as much air time as the other ones. Do you think that’s true. And what do you think people are missing out here a little bit? 00:06:08 Jim: Oh, definitely. The the Mackenzie doesn’t get a lot of attention when it comes to steelhead, which is totally fine, but it’s there isn’t a lot of public land on the Mackenzie to be able to like, just go out and swing runs and a lot of the slots and tail outs and stuff where the steelhead hang out, they can be really difficult to even, even if you’re in a boat, to be able to wet weight and get to them. Um, a lot of times I’m like back trolling the flies from the front of the boat for the steelhead. Like I’m, they hold the rod and I move the flies where I want them to be to find the steelhead in the mornings because they’re just runs that are really hard to. have your feet on the rocks and actually cast too. It’s nice because people that have never spey casted before. They can experience what it’s like to fight a fish on one of those rods. 00:07:02 Dave : Mhm. 00:07:03 Jim: I try not to make it feel like I’m the one that’s catching the fish, like they’re the ones that are connected to the fish. I’m just the tool that’s rowing the boat. Like you would be spey casting and swinging the fly. Does that make sense? 00:07:17 Dave : Yeah. So you’re not getting out in these typical standard steelhead run and. 00:07:20 Jim: No. Generally not. There are runs on the Mackenzie, especially lower where you. There’s some good runs that you can get out and swing flies, but as summer progresses the fish will be more concentrated up by the Leaburg dam that’s just upriver from my house and the runs there aren’t super. There’s a couple good runs that you can get on swing, but a lot of them you have to be. It’s safer to be in the boat and swing the flies from the front of the boat. 00:07:48 Dave : Yeah. So you swing so you’re in the boat, you’re getting them in position and they’re casting. They’re still swinging down through these runs. Uh, some of these areas. 00:07:57 Jim: Basically, they’re just holding the, the line, the rod out in front of the boat and I’m moving the boat through. Oh, right. 00:08:04 Dave : Gotcha. And what are you using? Is this a drift boat or do you have a motor on it? 00:08:08 Jim: Oh, I have a drift boat. 00:08:09 Dave : Yeah. So you just kind of back rowing. Yeah. 00:08:12 Jim: Back trolling or pulling plugs if you want to talk like gear terms. 00:08:16 Dave : Yeah I see. Okay. And then for the trout, um, is it the same thing for trout for. 00:08:21 Jim: It can be there are some better runs that we can get out and trout are a lot more, a lot easier to find. Obviously, like everybody knows that you can get a trout on a fly a lot easier than you can a steelhead, and there’s some short little runs that we can get out and actually like Spey cast and swing the flies for trout really easily. 00:08:41 Dave : Yep. Okay. And then what is your setup for the, uh, the Spey here? It sounds like it’s a four way. What type of. 00:08:47 Jim: Yeah, I generally for myself, I use a for weight for my summer steelhead and my trout on the Mackenzie year round. Even on the Willamette, I do have a six weight that I enjoy throwing as well. And then for my guests, I try not to put four weight trout space in their hands for the steelhead, because I feel like a six weight is a little bit easier for someone without a lot of experience to get a fish to hand. Does that make sense? Yeah, a little bit more backbone to it to be able to like fight the fish better. If you have experience. A four weight trout Spey for steelhead is a pretty fun fight though. 00:09:22 Dave : Yeah. Yeah, exactly. After fishing that four weight up there, I mean I’m thinking I’m I’m getting a four weight because it was just light to hand, you know. I mean the six weight’s pretty light too, but not you know, the four weight’s a lot lighter a lot lighter. And you can still cast it. That’s a great thing. I mean, you could still huck it, right? 00:09:40 Jim: Oh, totally. When you have that thing set up right, it’ll cast like a dream. It’s probably my favorite rod to fish with. In general, I have a what is mine? A four way G. Loomis, uh, version one Pro and it’s like eleven eleven inches. It’s pretty awesome. It’s probably my favorite little rod that I have. 00:10:01 Dave : Yep. So you like that. So the lengthwise, the eleven in that twelve foot range is about right. You don’t need it longer than that. 00:10:07 Jim: Yeah. Well, especially from the boat. Like if I’m standing in the boat or if I’m just using it in the boat, it’s nicer to have just a little bit shorter. Does that make sense? Because I can always move the boat where I need it. I don’t have to have a, like I, I have a fourteen and a half foot sage rod that I love to cast, but it’s not fun to have that long of a rod in a sixteen and a half foot boat. 00:10:30 Dave : No, no it’s not. Yeah, that’s a big stick. Okay. And then what about the line? What would be the line that would match with that for weight? 00:10:38 Jim: Uh, I use the Rio, uh, Skagit Pro or power power that okay, that like salmon and pink colored one. And that’s probably my favorite line on that rod. It loads it up really good and casts it very well. And then I, underneath that, I use like a T eight or a T ten sink tip. 00:10:56 Dave : Okay, so you’re using a tip on these when you’re fishing for both steelhead and trout. Yep. Gotcha. And that’s just probably just cutting down, especially if you’re in the boat. It’s getting you down quicker down to where the fish are. 00:11:06 Jim: Totally. I can control the, the speed at which we’re drifting down the river and that can help sink the fly more, lift it up. Just like when your Spey casting. You can cast more up river to help your sink tip get down more, or you can cast at a sharper angle down river to keep your fly up more through a run. You know what I mean? 00:11:24 Dave : Yep, yep. Do people, um, you mentioned the Willamette is there. How would you break down that? Describe that for somebody listening now that, you know, maybe is in coming to the area or something they’re not familiar with it, maybe break down the McKenzie, the Willamette, the Middle Fork, you know, are there opportunities all over the place? Do you have to have a boat? Are there some places where you can go fish, like outside of Eugene or in Eugene. 00:11:45 Jim: The Willamette, in my humble opinion, would have easier walking way to access for people that don’t have a boat. Uh, there’s a lot more open land and parks salon. 00:11:56 Dave : And is that below? Is that below where? Because the Mackenzie flows into the Willamette. So is this downstream where it below the confluence? 00:12:03 Jim: Generally, when I’m focused on finding steelhead or swinging flies for trout on the Willamette, it’s above where the confluence is for the Mackenzie. 00:12:11 Dave : Okay, but but but on the Willamette, the main stem. 00:12:14 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. 00:12:15 Jim: But you can float the Mackenzie into the Willamette. And there’s amazing trout fishing everywhere and steelhead fishing everywhere. It’s just a really long float. I think it’s from Armitage, which is the last boat ramp on the Mackenzie to the next boat ramp on the Willamette. It’s like a twelve mile float and it’s the Willamette, so it’s not super fast flowing water for probably nine of the eight of those miles. Yeah. So. 00:12:44 Dave : Right. Gosh. And then time wise, you mentioned June. I mean, it sounds like it starts in June. Is there a time in there is August, September. Right now as we’re talking, it’s August is right around the corner. Oh yeah. Prime time. 00:12:55 Jim: We’re just getting into the good stuff. Me and my other guy friends are finding fish everywhere right now and it’s pretty awesome. 00:13:01 Dave : That’s great. What did you mention the The dead man’s guide service? That’s a good name. Where did the dead man’s come from? 00:13:08 Jim: Uh, there’s a run on the McKenzie called Dead Man’s Ferry. And there used to be a little slide right there that you can put in at. And me and a couple of my friends. That was the first place that we went and swung flies together. And it always just kind of like stuck in my head. And then it was just like, it just made my head, made me happy to have that run involved in my life. Because just that day and that those friendships were really important to me in the fly fishing world. Yeah. And it just sounds like a cool name. 00:13:39 Dave : It does. It makes you wonder, do you know? Is there a story there of the history on that? 00:13:43 Speaker 3: Uh, I. 00:13:44 Jim: Don’t I’ve heard a few different stories, but I don’t know which one is real, so I’m not going to regurgitate either one of them. Does that make sense? 00:13:52 Dave : Yeah, yeah. 00:13:53 Jim: Because there’s always like River tales. Yeah. 00:13:56 Dave : So yeah. You don’t quite know. Yeah. 00:13:58 Jim: I don’t know the truth. So I don’t want to regurgitate a false story. 00:14:02 Dave : Yeah. And is that on the Willamette or the McKenzie. 00:14:05 Jim: That’s on the McKenzie. 00:14:06 Dave : On the McKenzie. Okay. So is there still a ferry there or is it just still name? It’s probably not, but there was. 00:14:11 Jim: Yeah, yeah, there’s just it’s just it was a boat slide that slowly become overgrown. Now you can still get to it if you know where it is, but, uh, it’s not very well maintained anymore. 00:14:24 Dave : Yeah, I’m just looking, I’m doing the old chat. GPT. Yeah. So I don’t want to say anything either, but we could do it our own and kind of take a look at it. But essentially, yeah, there’s a little bit of history there. So cool. So that’s kind of where you got started. What was your take us back before twenty years ago? You start you came out to Oregon before that, were you in the Midwest or where were you at? 00:14:42 Jim: Uh, I was traveling all over the place and, um, I was a professional body piercer for a lot of years. 00:14:49 Dave : Oh, wow. 00:14:49 Jim: And, uh, so that led me to travel all over. And, uh, there was a owner of a studio here that had bugged on me for a while to come out and check out Oregon. And I eventually caved to his desire to have me and, uh, fell in love with Oregon as soon as I saw the Mackenzie River. Honestly, this was the first river I saw when I got here. And I was like, this is amazing. I’m never leaving. And I’ve just been here since. 00:15:15 Dave : Nice. And was the shop the, um, what’s your local shop there? 00:15:20 Jim: Uh, the local fly shop. 00:15:22 Dave : Yeah. 00:15:22 Jim: Uh, we have two, we have home waters, and then we also have the Caddisfly shop. 00:15:28 Dave : Yeah. And the caddis fly shop. Yeah. That’s right. And the caddisfly has been there. Probably the longer one. Right. 00:15:32 Jim: Forever. 00:15:33 Dave : Yeah. 00:15:33 Jim: It’s been there forever. It’s a very well respected shop in the area for sure. 00:15:39 Dave : Yep. Are you doing any? You tie some flies, right? Are you doing some tying for the shops? You do videos, anything like that? 00:15:46 Jim: Uh, I have done videos for caddis and I currently I’ve been tying flies for caddisfly for probably ten years. 00:15:54 Dave : Mhm. 00:15:54 Jim: Maybe a little longer and, uh. Yeah. Yeah. And I did some videos for them back in the day. And, uh, I do some guide trips through them to when they need another guide. They hit me up for guide trips and stuff. 00:16:07 Dave : That’s cool. What are the, the videos and the fly tying? What does that look like? Um, you know, what are you tying mostly? And then does the caddis flies shop? Do they fill a lot of their orders through like kind of local folks like yourself? 00:16:19 Jim: No, I, I think I might be the only local person that ties for them. Um, they just like all other fly shops, they mainly get them from. 00:16:28 Dave : Yeah. Big Umpqua or whoever stuff. Yeah, yeah. 00:16:32 Jim: But I’m the, the handy one when someone brings in a random fly that they can’t find anywhere, and I sit down and replicate it for them. Or there’s a pattern called the twenty incher that, uh, Chris Daughters, the owner of Caddisfly modified years ago and asked me to tie it. And so I tie it like very specifically to the way that he wanted it. And last year, I tied one hundred and ten dozen of that fly alone. 00:16:58 Dave : One hundred and ten dozen. Wow. 00:17:00 Jim: Yeah. 00:17:01 Dave : Is the twenty incher now, is that a trout or a steelhead fly? 00:17:05 Jim: That’s a trout fly. It was, uh, invented on the rogue. And the story goes, and again, this might not be the most accurate story, but this is a story I’ve gotten is the first cast with it. He landed a twenty inch trout. So he named it the twenty incher. 00:17:22 Dave : Yeah, the twenty incher. Right. Is it a describe a little bit. It looks is it like a pheasant tail or not a pheasant tail. 00:17:29 Jim: But it’s it’s like a peacock body. Uh, it has goose bites for the tail. And then it has like a wing case with Hungary, Hungarian partridge for the legs. And then I use a traditionally I’d use like a gray, like a natural hare’s ear dubbing for the thorax, but I use a tan UV dubbing for the thorax. 00:17:53 Dave : Yeah. So it’s your typical, you know, a mix between a. Yeah. It’s, uh, whatever it would be a pheasant tail, maybe a hare’s ear. 00:18:00 Jim: Yeah. It’s like a imitation fly. It’s imitating a lot of things that the trout would eat. Yeah. My personal opinion is for the hatchery fish on the Mackenzie. They think it’s another snail because the hatchery trout are trying to figure out what they’re supposed to eat, and their bellies just get full of snails. 00:18:16 Dave : Oh, really? Yeah, they love snails. Cool. So that’s the twenty inch. And then what? Like, how would you fish that? Is that something you’re fishing on? Just nymphing? Or how would you fish that? 00:18:26 Jim: Yeah, it’s a nymphing fly. So you can use it as a dry dropper underneath, like a size ten or eight. chubby or, uh, underneath, like a mega prince or Pat’s rubber leg stone fly underneath a bobber or indicator, depending on which way you like to call it in the industry. 00:18:46 Dave : This episode is brought to you by AVC Rig Adventure Vehicle Concepts out of Colorado. 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Sounds like you fish for steelhead maybe in the morning and then you go for trout. Do you start with the nymph and maybe describe that that setup with the nymph setup. It looks like with your leader. 00:19:59 Jim: Uh, this time of the year, a lot of it. I’m the nymphing. I try to keep on the back burner for the most part, because a lot of the trout, uh, like the chubby dropper. So we do that primarily, but there are some deeper holes where the nymphing rig works. Well, generally it’s like a nine foot three X leader. And then right at the end of it, I’ll put a little micro swivel. And then below that I’ll put a mega Prince is usually my bigger like heavier fly that I put. And then about Twelve to eighteen inches. Below that, I’ll put a twenty incher or whatever other random jig fly that I like that day. Mhm. And, uh, just start getting some drifts with the runs. And then the steelhead in the morning is basically as soon as we put in, we get the rods out and we start swinging the runs and there’s like, uh, three or four really good runs right at the beginning of the day that the steelhead will be sitting in it. And then hopefully they’re in a kind moon and want to eat a fly that day. Yep. And then we get down to where there’s like this little shelf, and then we start fishing for trout from there. 00:21:06 Dave : Gotcha. 00:21:06 Jim: If we feel like it, we can poke around for more steelhead at other little spots. But my main confidence is right in the beginning part of the day for the steelhead. 00:21:14 Dave : Yeah it is. Is that because the steelhead are kind of um settle down. Why is it not better. And is it good in the evening too? 00:21:22 Jim: Yeah, it’s great in the evening when the fish start moving like that hour to two hours before sundown, all the fishing gets really good then. 00:21:30 Dave : It does. 00:21:31 Jim: It’s just right. It’s just hard with a guide day to have someone out that late. Does that make sense? Unless we start later. But then we’re starting at the slowest part of the day, which is the mid afternoon. So you gotta, like, you have a sacrifice either at the beginning of the day or the middle of the day. 00:21:46 Dave : Yeah. You got eight. Yeah. Because you’ve got your. And is that typically how it works? Do you kind of have an eight hour day where you’re starting at, you know, kind of early and then ending early? 00:21:57 Speaker 4: Uh, I generally start on the Mackenzie. I start my days between eight and nine. 00:22:01 Jim: In the. 00:22:01 Speaker 4: Morning. 00:22:02 Jim: Put in, uh, so we don’t have to be on the river super early. And then we’re usually done by like four or five. And then just like most fishing days, the lakes or rivers that like one to four o’clock, you usually get a little bit of a lull in the day. So you have to work a little bit harder to find where the fish are still feeding and being active. 00:22:21 Dave : Yep. Is there a what is the when you’re swinging for steelhead in the morning, what’s your your fly you’re starting out with. 00:22:27 Jim: Uh, I really love Sylvanas. Or pretty much any bunny leech. 00:22:31 Dave : Okay. 00:22:32 Jim: Those are my like, confidence flies, generally pink and purple on one rod and olive and chartreuse on the other. 00:22:41 Dave : Pink and purple. Yeah. And then the, the, the Sylvanas is what is that like a standard? What is that? 00:22:47 Jim: That’s an old Brian Silvey fly. It’s a like a tube fly bunny leech. Okay. Super easy guide fly. It’s like a strip of rabbit, some, uh, ostrich slop and hackle, a little bit of dubbing. Slap the bead on it and call it good. 00:23:05 Dave : That’s it. 00:23:06 Jim: Yeah. Easy one. Super easy. You’re not going to cry if you lose it in the bottom of the river or on a rock, or a fish breaks you off and it catches fish. 00:23:14 Dave : Yep. And then what’s your for the steelhead leader? What’s your setup look like? 00:23:18 Jim: They’re, uh, generally. 00:23:20 Speaker 4: I was. 00:23:20 Jim: A maxima person for the longest time in like ten or twelve pound. But now I’ve been switching over to, like, a cigar fluorocarbon and like a twelve pound. That’s been my go to. Now I’ve kind of I don’t know if evolved or just I feel like as a guide or even as a fisherman, you tend to just like change things up every once in a while, just something pushes you in a different direction and you go that way for a little while. 00:23:45 Dave : Exactly. Well, round it off with your, um, we’re getting this set up, so it sounds like you have a four way Loomis. What’s your reel that you’re working there? 00:23:53 Jim: Oh, I have a Bauer reel on it. Yep. I have a serious weakness for Bauer reels. I love you do? Yep. I think I have, like, five or six Bauer reels. Now. 00:24:03 Dave : Where? Bauer, where are they out of? 00:24:05 Jim: Uh, they were made in Ashland, Oregon, until a few years ago. Then Winston bought them. And I have a couple of the old ones that were made in Ashland. And I think if someone told me correctly, Winston owns them. But they’re still made down in Ashland. Oh, wait me on that part. 00:24:20 Dave : Right? Yeah, we’ll have to fact check that one. Yeah. That’s cool. So not far in Ashland obviously is not far. What does that take? That’s probably from Eugene to Ashland. Not too bad of a drive. 00:24:31 Jim: Yeah, it’s probably two and a half hours. 00:24:33 Dave : Yeah, it’s not bad. 00:24:34 Jim: My wife has some family down there, too. And Sawyer ores are made down there like some of the best ores in the world. 00:24:40 Dave : Oh, Sawyers down there too. 00:24:41 Jim: Yep. 00:24:42 Dave : So that’s right. Yeah. Ashland’s got some good stuff and it’s got um. Well there’s a few boats down there too right. Well I’m not sure if Willy’s is down but somewhere down the south. Right. 00:24:51 Jim: Yeah. Well and I don’t know where they’re all at, but obviously, like Clark is here. Koffler is here. Poverty is here, Willy’s are here. And then there’s a couple other smaller aluminum boat builders that I forget that are like in the, uh, Umpqua area. I’m trying to remember the name of them, but there’s like, there’s a ton of boat builders in Oregon. It’s kind of crazy. I mean, this is like the McKenzie River is where Drift Boat started too. 00:25:15 Dave : That’s right. Yeah. It is. 00:25:17 Jim: So it does make sense that we have a lot of boat builders here. 00:25:20 Dave : Yeah, definitely. Um, and then what’s your vote? What do you run in there? 00:25:24 Jim: I have a twenty twenty Clacker craft, Big Eddie. 00:25:28 Dave : Oh, yeah. 00:25:28 Jim: Big Eddie is what I have currently. Eventually, I’d like to get a raft or get a Koffler’s or Willy’s. 00:25:35 Dave : Is it the. Yeah. So the craft that’s. Is that like a big. The seventeen eighteen footer. 00:25:39 Jim: Yeah. It’s like sixteen and a half feet. It’s a fiberglass boat. 00:25:43 Dave : Okay. Gotcha. So when you’re out there fishing, uh, you know, or most people floating is that kind of on the McKenzie Willamette, you don’t see as many people just bank fishing. 00:25:53 Jim: Yeah. You have a few spots where the bank fishermen have good access, but for the most part, it’s it’s a boat or a raft that you’re in on the McKenzie. 00:26:01 Dave : Right. Okay. Yeah. What would you say if somebody’s listening here and they’re, you know, back to that start, they’ve maybe in the area and they want to get out. What are a couple of things you’re telling them to have kind of more success out there with? I mean, both steelhead trout sounds like swinging flies is something you’re doing there. But you know, if it’s somebody’s first time out there on the water, what do you tell them? 00:26:21 Jim: Um, find the seams. Find the faster water, the slower water. As the summer goes, the fish will tuck up more and more into the riffles and the faster water too. So don’t neglect those. But always fish seems just like any river. Always fish the seams because that’s where the food will be. And that’s where the fish will want to hang out because they can hang out in the slower water, they can dart into that fast water and get something to eat and get back out. And tail outs, all the tail outs. 00:26:49 Dave : And tail outs. 00:26:50 Jim: I love fishing tail outs and fish them deeper into the tail out than you think. Yeah, I’m amazed at how many steelhead I hook in water that I don’t think a steelhead would want to be in, especially early in the morning. 00:27:03 Dave : So they’re in the tail out. So in the you got the smooth water, but even into almost when it breaks down into the riffle. 00:27:09 Jim: Yep. Exactly. 00:27:10 Dave : Cool. Well yeah, we’re just kind of chatting on, you know, somebody dialing in getting ready. So it sounds like having a boat or either talking to you and checking in on a trip or, you know, or maybe if they have their own boat. Is that something that’s doable out there? If somebody had a boat? Or are there some rapids in that section? What does that look like? 00:27:26 Jim: The anything below the labor dam isn’t too bad. There’s a couple little spots like in any river. Um, once you get above the dam and you’re into those sections, they can get pretty gnarly pretty quick. So you definitely want to know what lines you’re supposed to be on and pay attention. And probably either book something where someone can teach you how to row down the river if you really want to learn it, or follow someone else down the river. Like just anybody that has a drift boat knows that you have to be careful in certain areas on any river. So use your smart brain and don’t hurt yourself or the people in your boat. 00:28:03 Dave : Yeah, exactly. Are you guys also getting some hatches out there throughout the summer? Um. 00:28:08 Jim: We we get morning hatches and evening hatches. The hatches obviously slow down just like any other river, but, uh, the fish will definitely key in on I, I’ve definitely learned in the last few years that the trout on the Mackenzie really like terrestrials during the summer. Like ants. Ants in particular are my go to right now. I can find them on hoppers, but I think the fish just think they’re a little big. Some beetles. But ants are definitely my my confidence dry fly for some. Like late summer when the hatches are all kind of chilled out. 00:28:43 Dave : Mhm. So there you go. So ants are good. And and are you just fishing that. Um, just the ant sorted out or what would that look like? 00:28:51 Jim: I generally try to have at least a little wet fly below it. Um, unless the person really just wants a dry fly fish, which I’m all about. It’s your day if you just want to dry flatfish, let’s. You know what I mean? Like there’s days I’m sure even you, Dave, like there’s days you just want to go dry fly fish for a day. 00:29:08 Dave : Yeah, definitely. 00:29:09 Jim: Even if you don’t, just like when I want to go out and swing flies, if I don’t catch anything, at least I fished it the way I wanted to. 00:29:16 Dave : Yep. So yeah, I think that’s it. Yeah. It feels like always we talk about this a little bit, but the, the surface stuff is always it seems like it’s the next level. You know, seeing the fish come up and eat the dry fly, right? Or just seeing it, that seems like it’s always kind of, you know, the, the ultimate is that, do you do you find that’s the case out there with how you feel about it? 00:29:35 Jim: Uh, it’s a hard toss up between getting a fish on a swung fly or getting them on a dry fly. They’re very close to each other for my like ultimate passion on how to go about things. I feel like swinging flies reminds me of when I was a kid chucking daredevils at Northern Pike, you know, like you can just feel that like the grab and the intensity of it and that just jolt of energy you feel on your rod. And yeah, that’s what I really love. Dry fly fishing is super cool. Like, yes, it’s right up there as well, but the swung fly is definitely one, one of my favorite ways to go about it, right? 00:30:13 Dave : Do you do any or any of the like skating kind of the for steelhead dries on more on the surface, any of that. 00:30:20 Jim: I generally make a trip down to the North Umpqua as a skate dry flies to the North Umpqua fish down there. That’s something I try to do every September just because it’s something I’ve always loved. On the Mackenzie and the Willamette. I’ve poked around at it a bit, and I know that you can do it because, like Todd Hirano lives around here and he swings dry, flies year round, as far as I know. So I know you can do it, but it’s just not my confidence. Way to go find the fish on these rivers. Which is weird because I drive an hour south and I’m like, oh yeah, let’s just do dry flies today, right? Where I could just do it in my own backyard and figure it out and build my own confidence here, you know? 00:31:02 Dave : Yeah, totally. Could you skate dry flies for trout with those trout? Eat the dry flies. 00:31:06 Jim: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yep. Like a little skated caddis would be awesome. 00:31:11 Dave : Yeah. So you could do that. So that might be a way to do it. Fish the fish. Kind of for trout. You know, fish the skate caddis. And if you build. 00:31:17 Jim: Confidence with that. 00:31:18 Dave : Yeah. Yeah. You know you might get a trout. 00:31:21 Jim: Yep. That’s actually a great idea. I might do that more often. 00:31:24 Dave : Nice. Do you pick up trout in the morning? Um like if you’re fishing for steelhead you had a, a steelhead fly on. Are you ever hooking trout. 00:31:32 Jim: Oh yeah. We get cutthroats on them a lot. And the cutthroats have been really nice, especially this year. We’ve hooked into some like sixteen, seventeen eighteen inch cutthroat. And that’s a nice cutthroat. And they fight good and they’re super fun. I love cutthroat. That might be my favorite fish. 00:31:49 Dave : Yeah. So you have cutthroat in there. So is that the trout you’re fishing for mostly, or is it a mix? 00:31:52 Jim: Rainbows. Generally rainbows is what we’re going for. But the cuts are it’s always a nice little surprise. I have a soft spot for those guys. 00:31:59 Dave : Right. So same thing. You would be fishing and you might hook a cutthroat as easy as you hook a rainbow. 00:32:05 Jim: Yeah, totally. 00:32:06 Dave : That’s it. Yeah. I remember what John Shuey when he was on last time, he was talking about how, you know, on the Deschutes River we get these fish that are, you know, tips and taps and tugs and all these little things that are you’re like, okay, is that a trout or a steelhead? And usually I just think it’s a steelhead, you know, it’s a good way to. And a lot of times it is, it’s, I feel like, but John was saying he’s, um, I got one of his old fishing buddies who I think passed away, they had that conversation about, okay, is it a trout or a steelhead? And they came to the agreement that it was a trout, you know, but and I think he fishes the North Santiam a lot. But what’s your take on that? Are you getting a lot of those tips and taps and tugs and stuff? 00:32:40 Jim: I’m so glad you brought that up because when I was listening to that episode, yep. I literally was having my own debate on write My feelings on it. When you guys were talking about it, it was a really cool moment. Um, I so it depends on my mood that day. Sometimes I’m like, oh yeah, that was totally a trout. Like, I’m gonna just keep fishing this run and I’m gonna get that steelhead. But then other times I’m like, hmm, I don’t know. That one felt heavy. Like it just felt different than a little like trout peck, you know what I mean? Yeah. Especially if it’s like, right where I think a steelhead should be like, I’ve caught steelhead there. That’s got to be a steelhead bite. So I go back and forth on it. And I literally had this whole conversation in my head listening to that episode. Yep. So I would say fifty fifty. It kind of depends on my what my gut is telling me at that moment. Sometimes the trout, probably most of the time it’s the trout. And then every once in a while I’m like, ah, I’m gonna back up. Change flies. Give it another swing. 00:33:38 Dave : Yep. 00:33:39 Jim: You know what I mean? 00:33:40 Dave : Yeah, I know, and I think I, I can’t remember what I said on that, but I mean, all rivers are different. And I can’t remember if John was talking, you know, specifically about a certain river, the Deschutes. But I feel like and maybe it’s just my positive outlook on things, but I feel like it’s a steelhead, it’s gonna always be steelhead because that keeps me with the confidence knowing like, you know. 00:33:58 Jim: Especially if it’s been a really hard steelhead day, you know? Yeah, that was one I that’s right. 00:34:03 Dave : That’s right. Yeah. That’s yeah, totally. That was yeah, I had, I had eight steelhead come to the fly today, even though even though I didn’t hook any. 00:34:10 Jim: Yeah, didn’t hook a single one, but I moved eight of them today and it was exactly right. 00:34:15 Dave : Yeah, that’s pretty funny. Yeah. We, uh, I mean, is that, you know, do you on the Mackenzie when you’re fishing for steelhead, are you getting a lot of action? I mean, I know it changes with numbers and things like that, but is, is it kind of one fish a day. A pretty good day on the Mackenzie. 00:34:29 Jim: Yeah. I’d say one to two maybe like as the season really primes into it, two or three in a day is a pretty good day, but generally a one to hand, I feel like is a really good day. Swinging flies for steelhead. 00:34:42 Dave : Okay. And you fish sounds like the Mackenzie. I mean between that and the Willamette, are you fishes the Mackenzie kind of more the place you’re spending more time? 00:34:50 Jim: Yeah, it’s literally my backyard, so I don’t have to drive far. Yeah. That’s right. I have a boat ramp just like a quarter mile up my street. So I just put in at the boat ramp and go unless I want to go do a different boat ramp. So it’s hard to beat the commute when it’s so close to go fish like the Willamette, or I’ll even go sometimes up to Portland and fish the clock in the sandy. Because I really like fishing those rivers and yeah, make a trip down to the rogue to go see Anne’s family and fish the river down there. And so I do, and obviously the North Umpqua trip. That’s amazing. 00:35:27 Dave : Yeah, yeah. The North. Exactly. Yeah. There’s a lot of you’re kind of in the middle really kind of in the middle of it, you know, you got, you got the north. If you’re looking at it, you got the south, you’re, you’re in a pretty good spot and you got the Mackenzie right there in your back door. 00:35:39 Jim: Also, uh, smallmouth bass fishing on the Umpqua. 00:35:43 Dave : Oh, right. Yeah. The Umpqua, the mainstem. 00:35:45 Jim: Yeah. Go down and catch like a hundred fish in a day on a fly rod. It’s pretty awesome. 00:35:50 Dave : Yeah, yeah, I’ve done that a few times. I feel like that’s probably as good smallmouth bass fishing as anywhere in the maybe the, the world or not the world, but maybe the country. Right. You feel like the activity. 00:36:02 Jim: Yeah, totally. 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Check them out right now. Well, tell me this on. We talked a little bit about flies, but what would be. We talked about a few. If you had to put together a handful of flies and let’s just stick to the trout, you know, on the Mackenzie. What would be your top list of maybe five or ten flies that you’d have to have there? And we could talk about, you know, whatever nymph, wet flies, anything. 00:37:22 Jim: Uh, I’ll start with dry flies. I would go with a chubby dropper. So I’ve been really liking, uh, Montana fly company came out with the double stack chubbies. 00:37:32 Dave : Okay. 00:37:32 Jim: And I really like those. They float the best of any chubby all day long. Even if the person is just dragging the fly underwater, it’s still gonna float all day. 00:37:43 Dave : Oh, really? And that’s like two double stack, double stack, like two foams. 00:37:46 Jim: Foam. Yeah. 00:37:47 Dave : Yep. 00:37:47 Jim: Okay, so that’ll be my chubby on top. And then underneath it, I’ll put like a size fourteen or twelve twenty incher. Yeah. I’d say twenty inches is probably going to be my biggest confidence fly there. 00:38:00 Dave : Okay. 00:38:00 Jim: And then for my nymphing rig, I’ll do a Mega Prince or a Pat’s rubber legs, and then a twenty incher or a Holy Grail caddis underneath it, and a size fourteen or twelve for both. Now that I got those two out of the way. Wet flies. Yeah. Uh, so we have the McKinsey Green Caddis that comes off in the spring, and that’s like a size eight caddis. And it’s awesome and it’s amazing. And it, it’s like the bug that was made for swinging. 00:38:30 Dave : And it’s called the McKinsey green. 00:38:32 Jim: Yep. And between that and a March brown in the spring, swinging wet flies is amazing. That’s probably one of my trout spey rod gets the most use is in the spring when those bugs are coming off together. 00:38:45 Dave : Gotcha. And is the spring. What is the timing of the spring? When does the spring start and end? 00:38:49 Jim: I’d say like mid to late March, depending on how the weather is doing. This year has been weird, which you are well aware of. Yep. But, uh, and then the March Browns just start coming off late February, but they’re really going about that time. And then the green Mackenzie Caddis start coming off around that, like April into May. And then they last for a little while too. And so you can combine those two bugs on a wet fly rig and swing them. And you can have a really epic day and. 00:39:20 Dave : Get. 00:39:21 Jim: Beautiful wild rainbows. 00:39:22 Dave : So swing two flies. 00:39:23 Jim: Yeah. 00:39:24 Dave : Generally, how do you do your dropper when you’re swinging flies. 00:39:27 Jim: Off a tag. 00:39:28 Dave : Off the tag. So just so you’ll put a little tag up above your main fly. 00:39:32 Jim: Yep. And I’ll put the bigger fly on the tag and the smaller one behind it. 00:39:36 Dave : Okay. And just use a surgeon’s knot tag or. 00:39:39 Jim: Yep. Yeah. You do the triple surgeon’s knot because it’s easier for me than a blood knot. 00:39:44 Dave : That’s cool. Yeah. I’m just thinking as you’re talking about this Davey Watson, who’s kind of one of the wet fly, you know, not necessarily swinging, although he does everything, but he was describing the tag and which one he uses, whether the lower and the and I can’t remember right now. Right. Is it does that matter to you whether you use the top or bottom tag? 00:40:00 Jim: I like putting at least when I’m fishing like insect wet flies. Not like a yeah, like a slump buster or something, you know. So we’re just sticking with bugs? Yeah. Uh, I like having the bigger bug above because it generally will get the attention, but it won’t always get eaten. And then they see that smaller bug and they’re like, oh, I’ll go for that one. 00:40:21 Dave : Right? 00:40:22 Jim: Does that make sense? 00:40:23 Dave : Yeah it does. 00:40:24 Jim: The way my brain works, I don’t know how a trout brain works. 00:40:27 Dave : No, no. Do you put it on the and then on the tag. Does it go on the tag that’s going down towards your fly or the tag that’s going towards your rod. 00:40:34 Jim: Going towards the rod. So towards the rod, a little bit of a bend on it to keep it from getting tangled up. 00:40:39 Dave : Yep. Gotcha. Okay. And so that’s and then on the green caddis, is that kind of a, um, how do you describe that pattern? Is that like more of a, it’s a wet fly. 00:40:48 Jim: Yeah, yeah. I, uh, the way I tie it is I use hairline makes a, a specific McKinsey green caddis rabbit dubbing. 00:40:58 Dave : Okay. Which is kind of a bright it’s almost like a bright green. How would you describe that green, right? 00:41:02 Jim: Yeah. It’s like a bright bluish green. 00:41:04 Dave : Bluish green. 00:41:05 Jim: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, then I’ll do a silver rib on it with a silver tag. Uh, I’ll do a Hungarian Hungarian partridge collar. And then I use medium done deer hair for a very sparse wing on it. So it kind of floats a little bit at first, but then that deer hair doesn’t float as well as elk hair. So it will get a little bit of water soaked into it, and it’ll start sinking and just swinging perfectly in that like foot to surface film area. 00:41:34 Dave : That’s awesome. 00:41:35 Jim: And that’s. 00:41:35 Dave : Awesome. 00:41:36 Jim: That’s oh God, it just makes me happy thinking about it. 00:41:39 Dave : I know I’m looking at here. I’m actually I just searched, I found a actually a caddis fly shop video and it’s got this one has a little bit of, they call it a hidden bead. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it’s pretty cool. So it’s got the, the body, everything like you said, but it’s got a bead and then the partridge is over the bead. Right. So it makes it swim or whatever. Breathe a little bit. 00:41:58 Jim: Yeah, that’s probably my favorite March Brown fly for sure. 00:42:01 Dave : Oh, and then you can tie it in any color, right? Yeah. Brown. Right. That’s cool. So it’s a little, it’s kind of like, um, you know, it’s a little wet fly, but it’s got the wing, the deer hair wing. So it’s almost like a, I always think of the Elkhart caddis. The difference is the Elkhart has got a bunch of hackle on it. Right. Yeah. And elk air wing. 00:42:18 Jim: Help it float this. We’re just letting sinks. We don’t do those things. 00:42:22 Dave : Let it sink. So when you’re fishing that on the swing, is it a forty five and a cross and swinging it down if you’re doing that or out of the boat. 00:42:28 Jim: Generally, unless it’s a little deeper run, then I’ll cast it a little bit upriver and let it sink for just a little longer before it comes tight. 00:42:35 Dave : Right. Do you ever put on the mending on it? Is it better? Do you put more upstream or downstream mends or does it depend depend on the current? Are you trying to speed it up? 00:42:43 Jim: It depends on the current. I’ve been really working on just getting my fly fishing as as soon as it hits the water, unless I’m trying to do the like, I’m getting it deeper and casting up higher. But in general, I like to cast at an angle that I know is going to get that fly swinging right away. Yeah, I want it to be fishing as soon as it hits the water, especially for trout, because sometimes the trout just see that fly hit and then it starts moving and you’ll get a grab within that first like few seconds of it even being in the water. So in my opinion, it’s important to really get that fly fishing immediately, right? 00:43:22 Dave : Get it going. So speed is not a problem. You don’t have to. Yeah. Get it going. No. Okay. And what’s the hit like when we know kind of we’ve heard about the steelhead hit. What’s the trout hit like. Is it similar to a steelhead when it’s on the swing. 00:43:34 Jim: I almost feel like like with steelhead when they’re committed to it. You don’t have a choice. You know. And like it just it’s instant energy. It’s instant aggression. Like, you know, you’re in and you’re going with trout. They’ll kind of peck at it sometimes as they’re going. That’s why, like when you were doing that John, uh, John interview you were talking about how the throttles just kind of peck at it. I’ve noticed if you don’t react to that peck and just let it keep swinging, that trout will come back and eventually either it’ll give up or it’ll like commit and then right into the fight, like they kind of check it out a little bit first. 00:44:12 Dave : Gotcha. Yeah. They pick at a little bit, they tap it or check it out. Yeah, yeah. That’s interesting. I’m trying to think now back to the comparisons with steelhead where, you know, I’ve had situations where yeah, I mean, that happens occasionally where you get a steelhead that on the same swing might hit it four times and then it hooks up. Right. That’s a rare, I think usually you’ll get a, you’ll get a tip and then you’ll put the same cast back and it might hook up later. 00:44:35 Jim: And I try to stress to my guests how important it is to not react until, you know, the fish is there. And it’s such a hard thing for anybody to learn. When you’re feeling any positive energy on your rod, to not give energy back into it and just let it keep working and doing its thing until that fish figures it out. You know what I mean, right? Like you really have to keep working. Yep. I read a thing the other day. Fly fishing doesn’t teach you patience. It punishes the lack of. And that. Really? 00:45:10 Dave : Oh, right. 00:45:10 Jim: Yeah. Like, you really just have to force yourself to hold and wait. Let it go. Yep. 00:45:16 Dave : Let it keep swinging. 00:45:17 Jim: Yep. Until something is really there. Don’t do anything. 00:45:22 Dave : Right. Let it swing. So if you’re getting something, you’re definitely not setting the hook. You’re just letting it go. And maybe it hits it again. And then do you do the same thing for trout? If you think it’s trout, just put the same cast back and swing it through there again. 00:45:34 Jim: Yep, exactly. 00:45:35 Dave : Yeah. 00:45:35 Jim: Um, trout in particular, I, I won’t put I love trout, but I’m not going to put as much work into trying to get a trout to commit to a fly. I’ll just keep moving and find the next. It’s steelhead are harder to find and it’s especially hard to find one that wants to play. Those ones I’ll put in more work and I’ll back up. Or change flies or both. Or I’ll work that water a little bit more once I know a fish is there, or let it rest for a little bit and let that fish settle back down and then go at it again. Like you have options to put more work into a steelhead. I generally don’t put a lot of work into the trout like that, because I can go find another trout. 00:46:13 Dave : You find another trout. What are the are there some pretty decent size trout? Because I always think of the the West versus the east side, you know, the east side of the Cascades, you get a lot more food. The McKenzie’s kind of on the west, right. But it’s got. Talk about that a little bit. Are you getting some pretty decent sized rainbows out there? 00:46:30 Jim: You can find, especially in the spring and the fall when the bugs are starting to go again, you can find some really nice eighteen nineteen inch wild rainbows on the McKenzie. Okay, uh, general wild rainbows are going to go from tiny little guys like any fish that’s growing, but the average size that you’ll hook into are twelve to sixteen, Sixteen seventeen inches, right? Which is yeah, which is awesome. I’ve landed one the whole time I’ve been fishing the Mackenzie that was twenty one and a half inches. I actually took the time to measure that one and that was an amazing fish. 00:47:03 Dave : Yeah. That’s huge. That’s huge. Yeah. They’re just not. And that’s the thing that they’re not going to have as much food as, say, you know, a Missouri River fish or some fish where, you know, there’s a lot more growing season, right? Yeah, totally. That’s the case. Or Missouri is different. That’s not a good example because that’s a super tail water. I mean, the Mackenzie essentially is tail water too, right? Is it? Yeah. But it’s got a dam above it, right. It’s got the dam, but it’s kind of like it’s got a lot of spring fed action too, right? 00:47:27 Jim: Yeah. It has three dams on it. The Leaburg Dam, which is the one I’ve referred to a few times, is a dam. Whatever goes into it comes out of it. That doesn’t. Yeah. Yep. Uh, through dam, I think it’s called. And then, uh, we have the Cougar Dam and the trail Bridge dam. Those two are the ones that, uh, control flooding and our water reservoirs, and those ones are the ones that mitigate the flows of the river. 00:47:54 Dave : Right. So the flow is pretty stable throughout the year. 00:47:56 Jim: For the most part. Yeah. They try to keep it at that like two zero zero zero mark all summer. And then eventually they turn off the water when the rainy season is coming again and it drops down to like seventeen, sixteen hundred at the end of summer. And then it’ll once the rainy season comes, then it bumps back up and then it’s good again. 00:48:15 Dave : And what’s your average flow throughout the year? 00:48:17 Jim: Uh, throughout the spring. It’s pretty locked at that two thousand, give or take one hundred cfs. 00:48:22 Dave : Mhm. 00:48:22 Jim: Um, and then the winter it’s fishable from one. The rainy season is here. So fall through spring. I’d say comfortably fishing at like five thousand cfs is going to be a nice flow to be able to do some good fishing on the river. 00:48:37 Dave : Okay, great. Well, we grabbed some flies from you and we’re going to do a little rapid fire round as we get out of here. We’ve been going back to this a little bit because I’ve been missing it, the rapid fire. but. So we’ll put a little list of those flies you mentioned. Any other flies you want to throw on there first, as we get started here that we miss, you mentioned the double stacked chubby twenty incher, Mega prints patch, rubber Holy Grail caddis, and then the two March brown like green caddis. What would you call that style of the green caddis March brown of that style of fly. 00:49:05 Jim: Uh, that would be a wet fly. 00:49:07 Dave : Yeah, just a wet fly. 00:49:08 Jim: I mean, you can fish them as dry flies too, and I do all the time, but, uh, the wet fly is probably my key. 00:49:15 Dave : Okay, perfect. And, um. Okay, well, let’s do a little rapid fire round, and then we’ll take it out of here on what we have going. So. Well, first off, just on that fly, anything else that you wouldn’t leave home without that we missed on that list. 00:49:26 Jim: Um, for trout, that’s probably my like go to list right there. If I was going to go fish the Mackenzie with a limited amount of flies, which I never have a limited amount of flies, but if I did, those would be the flies that I would go to. 00:49:40 Dave : Okay. All right. Perfect. And dry fly fishing, nymph fishing and wets. You can only pick one for the rest of the time. Which one are you going with? 00:49:47 Jim: Wet. 00:49:48 Dave : Okay. Wets definitely wets. All right. 00:49:50 Jim: Um, I might throw a slump buster in there, too. 00:49:53 Dave : Oh, yeah. The slump buster. 00:49:54 Jim: I forgot about that one until just now. 00:49:56 Dave : We’ve heard that one before. Okay, we’ll add the slump buster to our list. There. 00:49:59 Jim: It’s just a great fly to have. 00:50:01 Dave : What is the slump, buster? Maybe just give us clarify on that one. 00:50:03 Jim: Well, I tie it with, uh, a pine squirrel tail. 00:50:07 Dave : Oh, yeah. 00:50:08 Jim: And then pine squirrel for the collar. I also put, uh, a red hen collar behind, like, as a secondary collar behind it to give it like the gilling. And then I do like a, that tan UV or a pearl UV ice tub for the body. 00:50:28 Dave : Yeah. And the ice. Okay, good. And there’s, there’s a bunch of different variations on that. So that’s a slump buster. What is the, uh, you know, you’ve got a new client on the boat. What’s a typical mistake you see that people are making when they first get out there. 00:50:41 Jim: Uh, on the steelhead setting it as soon as they experience some. Yep. Which everybody does. Everybody that starts steelheading. That’s what you do. And it’s just a mistake. Everybody has to learn through. Um, for the trout, it’s just um general mistake they make, probably not fishing the fly as confidently as someone that would have a lot of experience, like just not getting that mend and really working that right that you’re on. 00:51:13 Dave : Fishing the fly. Yeah. Like actually fishing the fly. 00:51:16 Jim: Yeah. Stuff that experience teaches you. And I try to slow them down and help them and guide them in the direction that they can go to be more successful too. But thankfully, trout are forgiving and they will eat almost anything if they’re in the mood for it. 00:51:30 Dave : That’s true. Yeah, but steelhead aren’t as much. That’s why it’s so important to be confident and fish to fly. Right. Okay, good. So that’s a good tip for sure. And, um, what is your we mentioned hatches a little bit. What is your favorite kind of hatch out there on the Mackenzie throughout the year. 00:51:45 Jim: March. That’s it. 00:51:46 Dave : Yeah. 00:51:47 Jim: And the green Mackenzie. And then when the fall comes in October once well, like September ish, I’m going to guess this year the October caddis because we have a really good October caddis on the Mackenzie two in the fall. 00:52:00 Dave : Oh you do? The big caddis. Yep. Yep. And is that where you’re fishing. Just throw on a similar fly just a little bit bigger as that green caddis and with orange. 00:52:08 Jim: Yeah. Basically take that green caddis. Put an orange body on it and throw it. 00:52:12 Dave : Yeah. Do you make it bigger or do you tie it smaller? 00:52:14 Jim: Same exact size because the green caddis is a size eight and the October. 00:52:19 Dave : Oh wow. The green is a size eight. 00:52:21 Jim: Yeah, that’s what I was saying. It’s like a big bug. 00:52:24 Dave : Oh, wow. So you got this green cast. We haven’t heard much about this. So you’ve got a big October caddis size fly that comes out in the in the spring. Yeah. Yeah. That’s amazing. 00:52:35 Jim: It starts a little earlier than the salmon fly hatch does. And then it goes during the salmon fly hatch. So while everybody’s over on the Deschutes chasing the salmon fly hatch, we’re enjoying a size eight caddis on the Mackenzie. 00:52:50 Dave : Wow. 00:52:50 Jim: And we can fish from the boat. 00:52:52 Dave : And are you swinging that fly? 00:52:54 Jim: We can swing it. We can do dry flies. We can do whatever we want to get a fish to eat one. It’s pretty awesome, right? 00:53:01 Dave : And and when you hit the October with the October casts, are you fishing that the same way? 00:53:06 Jim: Yep. Either dry or wet or wet. 00:53:08 Dave : So you can just swing it basically. Yeah. Yep. I always wondered about that on the October. It seems like, you know, any just cast in general, what’s the most effective way to fish a caddis? You know. 00:53:19 Jim: Probably just the traditional dry fly. But, uh, I really like swinging big caddis for fish. I think it’s just again, I wet fly swing is the name of your podcast. That’s right. That’s literally the reason I started listening to you. I was like, oh, this guy, there you go. A, a spear guy like me. I’m gonna. You know what I mean? I started listening to you like, forever ago when you first. Oh, you did it. And you had like April on. 00:53:45 Dave : Sure. Back at the start. 00:53:46 Jim: Yeah. Like literally I’ve been listening to you for that long. 00:53:49 Dave : That’s amazing. Yeah. That’s right. We were all steelhead. We were pretty much all steelhead and trout the first year, I think. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Well did we lose you a little bit as we got into all around the world. Sort of random. 00:54:01 Jim: I mean you have to evolve and you know what I mean. You didn’t lose me. It just didn’t interest me as much. So I tuned back in when it is. 00:54:09 Dave : Yeah. You see one that you. 00:54:10 Jim: Like, information that I want to pay attention to. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 00:54:13 Dave : That’s perfect. No. So this is good. So we talked October caddis. Um, well, I’ve got a couple more for you here and we’ll have a random one or two and then we’ll get out of here. Um so we mentioned, you know, materials, you know, fly tying. It sounds like it’s a big part of what you do. What is one fly tying material that is worth spending a little extra money on? If you had to pick one, what’s your big fly tying material? 00:54:33 Jim: Dry fly hackles. 00:54:34 Dave : Oh yeah. Hackles. Yeah. That’s right. They’re not cheap. 00:54:37 Jim: When you look at the price tag And you see how pretty that hackle cape is on the wall and it’s like two hundred bucks. And you, you really like dry fly fishing. Get that cape, right? 00:54:48 Dave : It’s worth it. It’s worth it to get the good cape. 00:54:50 Jim: It’ll last you so long. It’s so worth it. Yeah, and same with steelhead flies. Like the materials for steelhead flies are such a deep rabbit hole to crawl into. Not that the fish care, but you tying a fly with like really cool materials just feels good when you’re on the water and you’re swinging it. 00:55:10 Dave : Yeah, it’s worth it. Nice. Um, when you’re going to the water, you get out early. Sounds like you’re getting going, you know, eight or whatever that is. Are you getting coffee before fishing or are you straight to the river? 00:55:21 Jim: Uh, I always stop off for coffee first. 00:55:23 Dave : Okay. Yeah. And you’re stopping off. You’re not making it at home. 00:55:26 Jim: Oh, I make a cup at home that I drink at home. But then I also get another cup of coffee at a little place on the river. 00:55:32 Dave : There you. 00:55:32 Jim: Go. Uh, in the town of Leaburg. There’s a little coffee shop there that I enjoy that I stop off for coffee and they. They always give me good juju for the day. 00:55:41 Dave : There you go. Yeah. That’s sweet. So so Libra in Libra is kind of a little town up the Mackenzie from Eugene. 00:55:47 Jim: Yeah. It’s a little town on the Mackenzie. 00:55:48 Dave : Yeah. Okay, so we got Libra coffee. We got that going. What’s your. So switch it at the end of the day, what’s your go to beverage? At the end of the day after you get off the river? 00:55:56 Jim: Uh. 00:55:58 Dave : Arnold Palmer oh, Arnold Palmer. 00:56:01 Jim: I make some tea out of a black tea, and then I make lemonade and I mix them together myself. So I do like three quarters tea in, like, a quarter lemonade. Oh, that’s probably my favorite summer drink. 00:56:13 Dave : Oh, yeah. Right. So that’s a so tea and lemonade. And then if you wanted to put alcohol in it, what would it be? The alcohol you’d put. 00:56:20 Jim: I don’t know, I don’t drink, okay. If my wife was here she’d be able to tell me, but she’d know. Okay. I know that it’s a thing. I just don’t know what it is. 00:56:27 Dave : You just don’t know, right? Yeah. So the Arnold Palmer is actually just tea. Black tea and lemonade. Sounds pretty good. 00:56:33 Jim: Yeah, it’s pretty awesome. It’s my favorite summer drink. 00:56:36 Dave : You get a little caffeine blast and then. Yeah, exactly. That’s good. Yeah, there’s a lot of great drinks out there. There was one up in Canada when we were up there in Saskatchewan. Oh, man. What was it? It was like a mix between. It was quite a drink. It had coffee. It was like half coffee. And then the rest of it was Kahlua, Baileys and vodka. 00:56:56 Jim: Oh, that sounds intense. 00:56:57 Dave : Yeah. But a bunch of coffee. But up in Canada, that’s where they actually get it in a can. It comes in a can too, if you want. 00:57:03 Jim: But do you remember the name of that? 00:57:05 Dave : Oh, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t remember what it was, but we’ll put a link in the show notes because I know shout out to Josh who was our guide that week. This guy was super awesome. He had one of these like, uh, handlebar mustaches. Oh, it was so classic. Yeah. This guy. 00:57:18 Jim: I’m sure someone’s listening to this right now and they’re like yelling at their device that they’re listening on. It’s called this. 00:57:25 Dave : Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There’s lots, especially our Canadian friends up there. They know exactly what I’m talking about. But but yeah, it’s pretty cool. So you got a bunch of good drinks out there. Um. So good. Well, yeah. I mean, I think we’ve kind of covered what anything we missed today. I know we’ve kind of hit on a bunch of things. Steelhead trout. If somebody’s coming in there, they could obviously connect with you on a trip and any other tips or tactics or anything we missed on giving them more success out there. 00:57:49 Jim: Uh, just go have a fun day. Yeah. The goal is to catch fish, but the real purpose that you’re out there is just to get outside. Enjoy that part too. 00:57:59 Dave : Exactly. Yeah, I think that’s I think we all get caught up sometimes, especially with, you know, the podcast. I love when we, you know, do these, right? Because you get some tips and new flies and techniques and stuff. But at the end of the day, you just got to get out and experiment. Right? And that’s kind of the fun part of it. When you do something that maybe wasn’t something you read, you just try differently. And it worked. Mhm. That seems like that’s kind of dude. 00:58:20 Jim: I love when that happens. Everybody told me not to do this. I’m going to do it anyway. Right. And it works. And you’re like, ha, yeah. 00:58:28 Dave : I know. Are you always doing that? Do you find when you’re out there? I remember I fished the Mackenzie a few times actually, and I struggle a little bit. You know, this was back in the day, but I remember just not nailing it, you know. And we did the same thing. We drifted and floated it. But do you find when you’re out there you’ve got stuff dialed. You’re a guide so you know where the fish are. Do you are you trying different things each day when you’re out there? Maybe trying new spots, checking stuff out? 00:58:50 Jim: I try not to experiment when I have guests on the boat unless I’m really struggling. But it’s usually an experiment that I’ve done on my own and with my guide buddies or my fishing buddies a few times, but definitely with the fishing buddies and the other guides. When we’re out enjoying the day, then we just pull out whatever we want to do and just play with it. And those days are pretty fun. 00:59:12 Dave : Yeah, that’s good, that’s good. 00:59:13 Jim: A lot of my friends end up with random flies that I’ve tied. I’m like, go try this, catch it something. 00:59:18 Dave : Right? Well, you got the pink, right. I know you mentioned pink, so that’s definitely a sweet. 00:59:21 Jim: I love pink. Pink is one of my favorites. 00:59:24 Dave : That’s a cool color. That’s a color that you sometimes people are like totally against and sometimes that they love pink, right? Pink seems to be like this X factor. 00:59:32 Jim: A nymph with a pink bead has landed me the biggest white fish I’ve ever seen in my life, which was almost thirty inches. 00:59:38 Dave : Oh, wow. 00:59:39 Jim: On the Mackenzie. 00:59:40 Dave : Holy cow, you caught a thirty inch whitefish. 00:59:42 Jim: Yeah, well, it was twenty eight something whitefish. Here, here’s a good thing. Yeah, Whitefish are an underrated species. I don’t know why whitefish get such a hate from so many people. They are such a cool fish. Native fight. Really good. They’re wild. They’re native. 01:00:00 Dave : They’re big. 01:00:01 Jim: They can be big. They’re just a cool fish. 01:00:04 Dave : Yeah. They are. 01:00:05 Jim: Did it. It’s pulling on the end of your line and it’s putting a fight. It might not be a rainbow trout, but it’s a whitefish. And those are really cool. And they’re indicator species. Like they can’t handle warm water. They can’t handle polluted water. They’re very sensitive to those things. So if you have them in a river, that means your river is at least healthy enough to have them there, which we should in this day and age really appreciate. 01:00:27 Dave : Yeah. 01:00:28 Jim: Love the whitefish, right? 01:00:30 Dave : No. Yeah. Me too. What about suckers? Do you guys have any suckers in that stretch? 01:00:33 Jim: We do have suckers, and I wish that they would eat flies more often instead of just like that random once in a while, right? And they fight really good for like, forty five seconds. And then they’re just like, all right, get this over. 01:00:44 Dave : And that’s it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right. Yeah. 01:00:47 Jim: It’s like, oh, I got a steelhead or something really big. 01:00:49 Dave : Really big. 01:00:50 Jim: Yeah, yeah. And then you like it just stops fighting and you’re just reeling it in and you’re like, oh, I’m sorry buddy. Let’s get this hook out of you and get you on your way. 01:00:58 Dave : Right, right. That’s it. What’s your best month for steelhead? You can only pick one. 01:01:04 Jim: Only one. Well, my birthday is in October, so I’m going October. 01:01:08 Dave : October. Yeah. There you go. And and is October a lot different than as far as the fishing than, say fishing July or August? 01:01:15 Jim: Well, I feel like the fish get more trouty as they’re in the water system. They kind of develop back to their trout brain a little bit better. So they’re more forgiving, which is nice. Mhm. Yeah. They’re more willing to eat something. Maybe they’re just more angry because they’ve been in fresh water for a while and they’re just like, everybody sucks. I’m eating anything that gets in front of my face, you know what I mean? They’re just crabby. 01:01:39 Dave : That’s it. So they get so as the season goes on, they get a little more even maybe. Well, they just changed a little bit. They’ve been in the river, so they’re changing a little bit. 01:01:47 Jim: Yeah. And there’s like a chrome steelhead in the beginning of the year is awesome. But there is something cool just grabbing a fish that looks like a rainbow, but it’s like three feet long. It’s pretty cool. 01:02:00 Dave : That is cool. Yeah. This is awesome. Well, Jim, I think we could leave it there for today and send everybody out to Dead Man’s Guide service dot com. I think we’re going to do a little research and try to get a little more history there. But this is awesome because I feel like, you know, for me, like I said, the Mackenzie isn’t I mean, there’s lots of trout. But again, like anything, I think picking up a guy a day with you or anybody really out there to drop that learning curve a little bit is helpful, you know? So I think we’ll we’ll send people there and yeah, until we meet again or meet for the first time. We’ll be in touch with you. And thanks again for all the listeners to the podcast as well over the years. 01:02:32 Jim: You’re so welcome, Dave. Thanks for your time and I appreciate you. 01:02:37 Dave : All right. If there was one takeaway today, uh, it might be that confidence grows from understanding on the water and to not rush through your day to experience and try new things. As Jim says, that’s always the best, uh, method and thing to do while on the water. You can check in with Jim at Deadmans guide service, and you can check with him for opportunities to fish either this summer or later in the year. If you get a chance, you’re interested in joining us on upcoming trips, you can always ping me at David dot com. And if you’re new, as always, you can send me an email. We’d love to hear if we have new listeners out there. Always great to talk to people, so please send me an email, Dave at web dot com if you haven’t checked in or it’s been a while, we’d love to hear from you. See what we can do to make your fishing day or month better. And that’s where I’m gonna leave it today. I got a lot to do. As always, we’re building and preparing for our next trip here. We’ve got a big one with Craig on Denmark Lodge and all the crews for the dry fly school heading to Montana to fish the Missouri we mentioned in the episode today. Really excited about this getting out there. Um, we’re going to have a big week coming up here, so please check in with me if you have any questions on trips or upcoming schools. And, and I’m gonna leave it there. Thanks again for checking in and all your support. Hope you’re having a great morning, afternoon or evening and we’ll see you and talk to you on the next episode. Have a good one. 01:03:57 Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly dot com.

 

Conclusion with Jim Sens on Swinging Flies for Trout and Summer Steelhead

Jim shows that swinging flies doesn’t have to be reserved for expert steelheaders. By blending Spey fishing, dry flies, nymphing, and wet flies into the same day, he helps anglers discover what they enjoy most while covering water efficiently on two of Oregon’s classic rivers.

     

959 | Colorado Fly Fishing with Michael Tolerton from Golden Fly Shop

Colorado Fly Fishing

Episode Show Notes

Colorado fly fishing offers an incredible variety of experiences, and that’s exactly what we’re diving into in this episode with Michael Tolerton from Golden Fly Shop. Whether you’re planning your first trip to the Front Range or looking to branch out beyond the famous rivers, Michael shares why this might be the perfect year to explore something new.

We cover everything from technical tailwaters and small mountain creeks to alpine lakes, carp, pike, and even warmwater species that many visiting anglers overlook. Along the way, Michael explains how Golden Fly Shop has become a hub for both local anglers and traveling fly fishers.


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Colorado Fly Fishing

Show Notes with Michael Tolerton on Colorado Fly Fishing

Golden Fly Shop and the Colorado Front Range

Michael purchased Golden Fly Shop in 2022 after spending more than a decade guiding and working in fly shops. Today the shop serves anglers heading everywhere from nearby mountain streams to international destinations.

Located in Golden, just west of Denver, the shop sits at the gateway to an impressive variety of fisheries. Within about an hour you can fish:

  • Clear Creek
  • Bear Creek
  • Boulder Creek
  • South Platte tailwaters
  • Alpine lakes
  • Warmwater fisheries
  • Carp, bass, pike and wipers

The team also helps anglers prepare for destinations around the world.

Photo via: https://www.goldenflyshop.com/pages/golden-dorado-argentina-set-fly-fishing

Why a Low Water Year Can Create New Opportunities

Rather than focusing on what anglers lose during a dry year, Michael encourages people to look for new experiences. Lower flows may push anglers toward alpine lakes, smaller streams, or warmwater fisheries they might normally overlook. One point really stood out during our conversation: “None of us are going to stop fishing. We’re just going to do different stuff.”

Instead of returning to the same familiar water, this can be the perfect season to:

  • Explore alpine lakes
  • Fish small mountain creeks
  • Target carp
  • Try pike fishing
  • Discover new water on your own

Clear Creek: An Accessible Colorado Trout Fishery

Clear Creek runs directly through Golden and provides excellent public access. Within minutes of leaving the shop, anglers can reach miles of fishable water inside Clear Creek Canyon. Michael says the creek fishes especially well through the summer, including productive dry fly fishing during hopper season. Species include:

  • Brown trout
  • Rainbow trout
  • Brook trout
  • Cutthroat trout

As you move farther upstream near Georgetown, the fishery shifts toward brook trout and cutthroat, making it a fun destination for lightweight rods and dry flies.

Alpine Lakes, Tailwaters, and Finding Your Own Water

Colorado’s alpine lakes and small mountain streams offer anglers plenty of room to spread out. Michael recommends spending time exploring maps instead of relying only on well-known destinations. One of the biggest rewards in fly fishing is discovering your own water.

He encourages anglers to:

  • Study maps
  • Explore blue-line streams
  • Walk farther than most anglers
  • Accept that exploration is part of the adventure

For families and beginners, many small alpine creeks offer excellent dry fly fishing with eager trout.

colorado fly fishing
June 12, 2025 “It’s alpine season!! Things are quickly opening up around the state, giving great relief from the runoff blues. Different mountain ranges and elevations have been receiving different ice off, so don’t expect everything to be open right now. If you’re in need of a great alpine lake resource, we have the best book for it in the shop! Ron Belak’s “The Fishing Guide to 800 Lakes in Colorado” is an invaluable source of knowledge!” (Photo via: https://www.facebook.com/goldenfly.co)

Carp, Pike, and Colorado’s Overlooked Warmwater Fishing

Many anglers immediately think trout when they picture Colorado, but Michael believes warmwater fishing deserves much more attention. Carp fishing has become a favorite among the Golden Fly Shop staff because it combines sight fishing with powerful fish that often run anglers into their backing. Popular species include:

  • Carp
  • Smallmouth bass
  • Largemouth bass
  • Wipers
  • Northern pike

The Denver South Platte offers excellent carp opportunities, while reservoirs like Spinney and Eleven Mile provide chances to catch pike. For pike, Michael recommends streamer patterns roughly six inches long rather than oversized flies.

Colorado Fly Fishing

Colorado Fly Fishing Books Every Angler Should Own

Michael recommends several outstanding resources for anglers planning Colorado trips. Recommended books include:

These books cover everything from access points and hatch timing to alpine lakes and technical tailwaters.

Building Community Through a Fly Shop

Golden Fly Shop has become much more than a retail store. Michael focuses on creating a place where anglers can learn, travel together, attend educational events, and build relationships. The shop hosts presentations throughout the year featuring well-known anglers and educators. Recent and upcoming guests include Ron Belak, Andy Mill, and Blane Chocklett.

Michael also shared that the shop now has a second location in Castle Rock, helping expand that same community farther south along Colorado’s Front Range.


You can find Golden Fly Shop on Instagram @goldenfly.shop.

Facebook at Golden Fly Shop

Visit their website at GoldenFlyShop.com.

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Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
WFS 959 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: A fly shop is more than a place to buy gear. It’s where seasons, rivers, road trips and local knowledge all come together under one roof. Today we’re heading to Colorado to talk with Michael Tolerton from Golden Fly Shop about the fisheries that make this part of the country so amazing. From Clear Creek and the technical tail waters to alpine lakes, carp, pike and everything in between, if you’re planning a trip, looking for new water, or just want a better feel for what Colorado has to offer, this episode is packed with practical ideas. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Michael Tolerton from Golden Fly Shop is going to take us into Colorado, and we’re going to find out what low water years can actually open up for new fishing opportunities. We’re going to talk about this year being a lower water year, what that is going to look like. We’re gonna find out about alpine lakes, small mountain streams and why these are definitely worth adding to your list. We’re gonna find out about pike trout, warm water species, and some of the technical tailwaters across the Front Range. Plus the books every Colorado angler should be exploring before they jump in to fishing this area. All right, let’s get into it. Here he is, Michael Tolerton You can find him at goldenflyshop.com How’s it going, Michael? 00:01:19 Michael: Good. How are you doing, Dave? 00:01:20 Dave: Pretty good man. This is, uh, this is going to be a fun one. Today. We’re going to get some background on Golden Fly shop, the fly shop that you run out there in Colorado. We’ve done a number of episodes on Colorado over the years. It’s always fun to, you know, talk to shops. It’s kind of my bread and butter. I know it’s the backbone of fly fishing, right? And so we’re going to get a little bit of that and how you came into the shop. But maybe start us off off there. Have you been doing this a while? When did the I know Golden was around before you. Right. Maybe talk about how you came into the shop. 00:01:49 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I bought the shop. 00:01:51 Michael: In. 00:01:52 Speaker 3: August of twenty two. I was guiding and working in shops for a few years before that. So I’ve been in the industry for a little over ten years now. Um, before that, Golden was owned by, uh, Justin nine, who owns Montana Fly Company now. And I had known Justin for a little while and, uh, kind of figured that he wasn’t going to be able to own a B2B and a B2C for too long, at least out here being in the front range. So I talked to him, you know, just got a feel for, you know, if it was something he was interested in and he was, and it was just kind of right place, right time and knowing the right people. 00:02:33 Dave: Knowing the right people. Yeah. How’s it feel now that you’ve been in there a few years in the shop? Is it I always love because, you know, it’s I know it’s not easy. And sometimes you hear these stories about you get owning a shop, you maybe don’t get out and fish as much. How has it been for you? Describe that. 00:02:48 Speaker 3: I still love it. I mean, I love coming in to work every day, and I still try to fish as much as possible because I think it’s important if you’re in the industry to get out and fish. I think you do see a lot of that in the industry. People not fishing as much as they’d like to and maybe getting burnt out on it. But, you know, I think, uh, you know, try to get out for myself a lot, but I’ve also got, you know, a wife that likes to fish and two kids that like to get out. So that, that keeps me out too. 00:03:15 Dave: Well, talk about Golden talk about that part of Colorado because Colorado, you know, like I said, we’ve done episodes around. You’ve got, you know, it’s, you know, one of the biggest destinations, right? But describe maybe a little bit about your area, the fishing, the opportunities there. 00:03:29 Speaker 3: Yeah. So Golden is, uh, just west of Denver sits right at the base of the foothills. A lot of creek fishing around us. Clear Creek runs right through Golden. Uh, we’ve got Bear Creek to the south south Boulder, Boulder Creek to the north. But there’s a there’s a lot of fishing within forty five minutes, hour drive of us. You can get into alpine lakes, tail waters, warm water fishing. Everybody in the shop does a lot of warm water fishing, too. So lots of options. 00:03:59 Dave: Yeah. What are the species on the warm water out there? 00:04:02 Speaker 3: It’s a lot of carp fishing for us. Everybody in the shop really likes carp fishing. You know, I think it’s a mixture of, you know, that fish being able to pull you into your backing and, you know, cutting down on windshield time is always fun too. 00:04:14 Dave: Yeah. Right. So the creek fishing maybe take us into a little bit on let’s just say, you know, summertime, you know, I know, you know, it depends on flows and things like that. But if you’re in kind of say the August time period, you know, middle of summer, are there opportunities out there for trout? 00:04:30 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, Clear Creek is a great option. I was just on it Saturday for three or four hours and fished nothing but dry flies, caught a ton of fish. The hopper bite out there can be really good second half of the summer, and I’m not too worried about it getting. You know, we’ve got a little interesting water year this year, but Clear Creek still temping out. Great. I took a water temp on Saturday and it was high fifties. 00:04:56 Dave: Yep. So you think that is the one thing? Obviously the the flow is a big part of it. This year is a little bit on the low side on flows. But like if somebody was, let’s just say somebody was coming in right now calling you up on the shop and they’re saying and they’re thinking, you know, I’m going to be in Colorado, you know, this summer. Is that the place to start the Clear Creek, or do you think some of those alpine lakes or maybe even a better opportunity? 00:05:19 Speaker 3: Uh, you know, it just depends on how far you want to drive Clear Creek. You can get on, you know, what type of fishing you’re looking for if you want. Moving water in Clear Creek is a great option. Um, it’s just, it’s so gradient that I don’t think it’s going to get too hot to the point where we’re telling people not to fish it this year and there’s tons of public access. The first you drive seven minutes from the shop, you get to the mouth of Clear Creek Canyon, and then that entire canyon for fifteen miles is all public water. And then it gets a little a little choppy above that. But that and the alpine lakes are going to be great too. I mean, you know, it’s a great year to do that. I think with the the lower water year, it just gives people an opportunity to maybe try stuff they haven’t done before. I mean, like I’ve been telling the guys in the shop when people come in and, you know, maybe they’re down on the water year or whatever, but, you know, I tell them to say, you know, none of us are going to stop fishing. We’re just going to do different stuff. 00:06:14 Dave: Yeah, exactly. That’s the thing. There will be some fishing opportunities even in the low water year. And carp is one of those, right? The warm water fish are going to still be there and probably do even better. Is that do you think that’s the case in Colorado this year that maybe the the carp fishing will, you know, might even be better than it typically is? 00:06:30 Speaker 3: I think the cod fish is going to be great and there’s been more and more people getting into it. I think for all, you know, all the reasons that that I mentioned, it’s it’s a fish that pulls on your on your line. It’s close to home, but there’s going to be tons of options to get into, get into new and, and different stuff. You know, it’s a great year that, you know, to learn something new or you’re not. I think a lot of people go back and do the same thing over and over and over again. They found success somewhere. And I get it, you know, especially, you know, if you’re working all week and you only have one day to go fishing, you want to set yourself up for success. But this might be a year where you’re kind of forced to look outside your comfort zone a little bit and try different stuff. And, you know, I think there’s always a silver lining to be found even in a, you know, a historically low water water season for us. 00:07:19 Dave: Yeah. And we’ve, like I said, we’ve done episodes. I know, you know, uh, John Gierach when he was on, you know, rip, you know, John, he was and he was just talking, he was out there in Colorado. I’m not sure how close he was to your area, but I think he was near the national parks. And, you know, he obviously talked a lot about trout fishing and, you know, things like that. So there’s the opportunities are there. But I feel like, yeah, the carp fishing is something that maybe people don’t hear as much about out in that, you know, in your neck of the woods. But maybe describe that on the carp a little bit. whereas the opportunities describe the where you’re fishing there for carp. 00:07:49 Speaker 3: You know, pretty much any pond or body of water around the Denver metro for the the majority of them will have carp in it. The DSP, the Denver, South Platte, right through Denver is pretty well known. There’s a couple carp tournaments that are that are based on that that body of water. Um, so that’s a river. You know, I think it’s the, I think the reason that a lot of the guys in the shop have gravitated towards it is because pretty much everybody in the shop really likes to go saltwater fishing. And carp fishing is about the closest you can get in Colorado to, to a saltwater kind of situation where you’re sight fishing to an individual fish. They, you know, they mud, they eat stuff off the bottom. You’re kind of fishing to them, you know, kind of similarly to you would bonefish or a or a permit. I’m not saying it’s a bonefish or a permit, but. Right. But you know, you’re, you’re putting a fly out in front of them. We do a lot of what’s called a drag and drop, which is not the sexiest way to to fish to a fish. Um, but what you’re basically doing is you’ll have fish, you know, working their way down, down a bank. And what you’ll do is cast beyond them and kind of cut them off at like an intersection. You’ll try to intercept them. You’re pulling your fly back across the surface of the water and then letting it drop right in front of their face. They see it drop right in front of their face. You’ll see them tip up and follow it down. And what you’re kind of waiting, you know the sign. You won’t feel any eat most of the time, but what you’ll see is you’ll see like a tail kick into the mud and set. And that’s when the fun starts. 00:09:28 Dave: Wow. That’s sweet. And so that’s the other cool thing is that there’s lots of opportunities right around your area. You don’t have to go far to get into carp. 00:09:35 Speaker 3: No, that’s, I like being, uh, I think geographically just being right up against the foothills. You can go west and trout fish and do a lot of different types of trout fishing. You know, we’re also like an hour from like the Decker’s section of the South Platte. So you can get on tailwaters and technical tailwaters. You could get up on creeks and throw hopper droppers. You get up in the alpine, you know, you go east and fish for warm water species. There’s just a lot of options. 00:10:04 Dave: That’s awesome. Well, I want to talk about some of those options a little bit here. And I want to dig into some more opportunities there. But let’s take it back to the shop because I want to hear more details on the shop. I always love getting a little background for, you know, what it’s about, but maybe talk about the shop. You know, when people walk in there, what can they expect? You know, what do you guys focus on? Is there, do you guys cover a lot of fly tying, you know, flies. Describe that a little bit for some of the give us that picture. 00:10:28 Speaker 3: I think being in the Denver Metro as a shop you kind of have to do everything. I think the fishing out here is great. Um, but it’s the Denver metro. The southern Rockies is the, you know, at least in my mind, the fly fishing retail, you know, Mecca of the world, you know, it’s the largest metro area with all this trout fishing, you know, Denver and Colorado Springs kind of, you know, basically the whole front range is full of people at this point. But it’s a great jumping off point for people with the Denver International Airport being here, we’ve got a lot of customers that come in and are going all around the world. So we have to be prepared for that. Lots of fly tyers, you know, we have to have all the gear for all these people doing all this stuff. So yeah, we’ve gotten pretty good at really trying to, you know, do everything. 00:11:16 Dave: If somebody was coming in to, let’s say they were going on a Pike trip, you know, and kind of getting geared up. Do you guys have lines to cover kind of everything? 00:11:25 Speaker 3: Yeah, we’ve got a huge selection of fly lines. That’s that’s only growing. I think next spring we will have every single scientific angler’s fly line that they make in the shop. 00:11:36 Dave: Oh no kidding. 00:11:37 Speaker 3: Yeah. So we’ll have the the entire assortment. 00:11:40 Dave: Oh, wow. That’s awesome. Yeah. We’ve been we’ve been using scientific anglers here recently. What would be, you know, if somebody had that question, let’s just say we were on the phone and I was asking you, you know, what is the line for for Pike if you’re going for a big pike in northern, you know, northern Canada, do you have a few that you’d recommend. 00:11:56 Speaker 3: Let’s say like Titan taper stuff? Uh, it just depends on, you know, the situation that you’re getting into. I know they have some new Stillwater lines coming out in the fall that, you know, if it’s after that, I’ve been fishing a couple of these Stillwater lines and they’re pretty good. 00:12:13 Dave: That’s the thing, I guess. Yeah. You think about the Stillwater, there’s a bunch of different lines out there. But, you know, I think the cool thing about where we’re going, it’s going to be a lot of the surface. So I think dry lines is going to be a big part of the game, right? So I think it’s more getting something that can cast the flies, which are going to be a little bit bigger, maybe deal with some wind. Yeah, it seems like the fly lines. There’s a lot of options. And so it’s kind of like hard, you know, dialing it in to know exactly what you want. I guess that’s where maybe you ask your ask your guide or whoever you’re going with, right. What’s best. 00:12:41 Speaker 3: Yeah. Fly lines. There’s just there’s endless options based on, you know, the situation you’re getting into. I think, I think fly lines are one of the most overlooked pieces of equipment in fly fishing, though we do some events where people bring their rods in and, you know, with the same rod, you cast different lines on it. And we’re pretty shocked when they find out how, how much a line can, you know, help or hurt each individual rod? 00:13:06 Dave: Yeah. It’s interesting. It’s a whole it’s confusing for a lot, especially new people coming into it, right? Like knowing what line I think the, you know, eight weight rod, eight weight line, you know, I think that’s, I think the idea was to simplify it, right? Make it simple for, for people getting into it. But there’s a lot of, you know, you can cast a, on a six weight rod, you can cast a eight weight line, right? You can cast different lines depending on what you’re doing. 00:13:29 Speaker 3: I think they simplified it to a certain degree. But then there’s all, you know, and then where it gets complicated is when you want to get into to nichey stuff, you know, because then there’s a fly line that does this specific thing really, really well. But you know, you’re losing something else that it does. A lot of people come in if you’re buying a nine foot five weight, we’re almost always going to recommend a like an infinity taper or a, you know, for real, like a gold, just kind of a good all around taper that does everything pretty well. Nine foot five weight isn’t exactly a specialty tool. It’s everyone wants it to do everything. And that’s kind of the fly line that does everything also. 00:14:08 Dave: Right? Yeah. The nine foot five way. Exactly. So like we said, there’s plenty of opportunities around your area when people come into the shop, let’s just say you got somebody coming in new, what are they? You know, if they’re asking you, what are your biggest questions or where are you directing them for fishing? Are you kind of telling them the same thing you’re saying here? You know, carp, Clear Creek or what’s the biggest question you guys get asked there? 00:14:29 Speaker 3: Most people are coming in to fish Clear Creek. I’d say Clear Creek or, you know, different sections of the South plots. You know, obviously pretty famous section of water. It does you know, it gets busy out there for sure. But you can get away from people. You just have to go go further. You know, that’s what I tell people they like I said, there’s a lot of people in the Front Range and I think Colorado has really, really great fishing. I think a lot of people get frustrated with the some of the crowds they can see, especially on weekends, but you just have to go further than other people. And there’s, you know, look, look on maps and find like just blue line it, you know, you might not have a bunch of information, but I think sometimes you just got to risk it and you got to try to, to find something for yourself and we’ll help you. We’ll, we’ll direct you to places we’re not gonna, we might not give you our super secret spots, right? 00:15:22 Dave: Yeah, exactly. We don’t want to spot. Yeah. We don’t. People can do a little bit of their own research, right? That’s what’s cool about it. That’s what’s fun about fly fishing. 00:15:30 Speaker 3: But I think, I think finding stuff on your own is one of the most rewarding things in fishing. 00:15:35 Dave: Yeah, that’s what’s cool about fishing because it surprises you, right? I mean, that’s the amazing thing. You get out there and you do something different, or you go somewhere further and all of a sudden you have this moment with a fish or something and you’re like, oh my God. Right. The only way to experience that is to get out there and just go. 00:15:52 Speaker 3: I just think it’s so rewarding to, you know, it’s fun to know you’re going to a place that you’re going to catch fish for sure. But you know, if you’re willing to explore, I think it’s, I think it’s pretty fun to, to figure stuff out. 00:16:03 Dave: That is cool. Yeah, we were, we were on a trip just, just recently Atlantic salmon and Alex shout out to Alex who was on, we had some people, you know, from the podcast there and you know, he really wanted to get a brook trout, a big brookie, you know, and we were a little bit early, so there weren’t a ton in there. And we were catching lots of smaller brook trout and stuff. And the last almost the last day, you know, he was out there and he just, you know, he kind of put it out there and he. And sure enough, you know, he got the big rookie, you know, and it was like, wow. You know and everybody we were just all sitting there like kind of, you know, couldn’t believe it. 00:16:36 Speaker 3: Shout out to Alex. Good job Alex. 00:16:38 Dave: I know yeah shout out to Alex. So so I feel like that was one of those moments you know and I think that’s what makes fly fishing amazing. It’s just you have these times and you know, experiences. But um, but cool. So well tell us this on, you know, we talked about a couple of things. Clear Creek, you mentioned, you know, the South Platte, where are some of those Stillwater or lakes and things like that? What are the places that people can go? Because I know that’s a pretty big thing out there, right? The Stillwater fishing. 00:17:02 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I mean, if you want to look for Stillwater fishing like bigger lakes, uh, usually you’re talking about the South Park area, you know, at least for people that live around here, Spinney and eleven mile now in tarot, they drained this year, uh, just to conserve water. It’s, you know, and tarot was, was an awesome, awesome trout fishery. It’s just it was really shallow. Like at its deepest point, it was To twenty feet, so it lost a lot of water to evaporation. And, you know, in order to conserve water, they decided to move water down the system out of Ontario, which, you know, is tough. It’s not the first time this has happened. It’ll come back. It sucks to lose it, but it’ll got spinny. Spinny is a great, great trout fishery, and I’ve been doing a lot more stuff on eleven mile lately. It’s not a fishery that, you know, driving, driving out there. I usually go to the other two, but spinny, I haven’t been able to put a boat on most of the year this year and eleven miles been been sitting at capacity. So there’s been some days on eleven mile this year that’s there’s some really good fishing to be had in there. Trout and pike and pike. 00:18:10 Dave: Right. That’s that’s the thing. So you have pike out there as well? 00:18:13 Speaker 3: Yeah. Pike. Uh, so, you know, if you want to go pike fishing out in South Park Spinney, you’ll catch a pike trout fishing. You’ll catch it under under an indicator on a leak. There’s too many. They’re actually doing a tournament this summer to call out some of the pike. It’s just it’s getting a little nuts and spinny. You won’t find a lot of big pike in there, but a lot of little hammer handles. 00:18:36 Dave: But what’s a hammer handle? 00:18:37 Speaker 3: Maybe like a foot, foot and a half long pike. 00:18:39 Dave: Oh, yeah. A little foot and a half long pike. 00:18:41 Speaker 3: That’s those little guys. 00:18:43 Dave: That’s amazing. I mean, for somebody like me, I haven’t caught a pike yet. Like, I would love to catch, you know, anything? A hammer handle would be pretty cool, right? 00:18:50 Speaker 3: Oh, well, it sounds like you’re about to get into something. Something a little better than that pretty soon, huh? 00:18:55 Dave: Yeah, there’s gonna be a little bit bigger, I think, where we’re going. Yeah. 00:18:57 Speaker 3: Yeah. Eleven miles kind of managed a little better for the pike. It’s. There’s less pike. But we were out. We. You could see them there in clear water. They’ll be. And they’ll be shallow back in bays until water temps get above sixty five degrees where you can wade to them. And there’s, there’s fish, you know, forty inches in in eleven mile. 00:19:20 Dave: Yep. Is that so that’s doable. So if somebody was out there coming that way Pike, they could definitely get in some pike. 00:19:25 Speaker 3: If you want to make sure you’re going to catch Pike. I go to Spinney if you want to put in the time and effort to catch a big pike, you know you have to go. There’s there’s just no there’s no shortcut. It’s time on the water. 00:19:38 Dave: What are the flies? I know you guys have a good assortment of flies there. What are the pike flies? Is that a pretty. Would you have a couple or is that a pretty easy call on what you’d use? 00:19:47 Speaker 4: It’s a lot of specific patterns. 00:19:51 Speaker 3: You know, it’s a lot of it’s a lot of trout stuff out here. You’re not throwing like the massive, huge pike flies for the most part. It’s smaller, you know, even like dungeons and stuff about that size, you know, maybe like six inches, which is, which is great because, you know, I had a buddy that was out this spring pike fishing and he caught some nice trout, uh, like, you know, twenty two inch brown trout on its, you know, which isn’t a bad bycatch. And, uh, it’s great those fish ate, you know, that fly was on forty pound. A forty pound leader. So you know, go go out there and throw for Pike and maybe you’ll catch your biggest trout of your life. 00:20:30 Dave: Right. Wow. Nice. So Pike and what are they. Maybe just take us on some of the other species. So what haven’t we talked about that are around your neck of the woods? 00:20:39 Speaker 3: Okay, so starting with trout, within an hour of the shop, you could catch, I mean, in in Clear Creek itself, you can catch a brown trout, rainbow trout, brook trout, and cutthroat as you work your way up to the headwaters and then down around us, warm water wise, you know, you’ve got carp, smallmouth, largemouth, you know, all the all the sunfish you want. And then, uh, you know, I’ve been doing a lot more like wiper fishing the last couple years. There are some opportunities east of us. Jackson Reservoir, Union reservoir can be pretty good. 00:21:12 Dave: What’s the cutthroat species you guys have there? 00:21:15 Speaker 3: So in Clear Creek, there’s just it’s it’s funny as far as I know and can tell by looking at them. It’s just kind of a hodgepodge of, you know, if you did genetic testing on all of them, I think you’d get different, different results on each fish. I think they dumped a bunch of different types of cutthroat in there. And now it’s, it’s a clear creek, uh, clear creek cutthroat, right? 00:21:37 Dave: Clear creek cutthroat. Yeah. And yeah. Brook trout. True. Which aren’t native, right. I mean, it’s pretty be pretty cool to catch. Ah, the brookies pretty small. 00:21:43 Speaker 4: Uh, yeah. 00:21:44 Speaker 3: In Clear Creek for sure. 00:21:45 Speaker 4: There’s places. 00:21:47 Speaker 3: Lakes that you can get, you know, decent ones, twelve fourteen inches. But yeah, in Clear Creek, they’re good. They’re gonna be small. But you know, you get up in the cutthroat brook trout, that’ll all be above. If you’re looking at a map, Georgetown, Georgetown Lake is kind of the cutoff where below that you’re catching rainbows and browns. And then above that is cutthroat and brook trout. But you know, you get up there, it’s a great place to take. Like, I take my seven year old up there and we just throw dry flies the whole time. 00:22:18 Dave: Yeah. That’s sweet. Using like a for weight or something a light rod. 00:22:22 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:22:23 Speaker 3: Super easy. I mean, it’s a great place to, to take a kid or take someone who, you know, it’s all visual. You know, the dry fly, dry fly eats. It’s a great place to take somebody, you know. It’s a great place to take a beginner. It’s a great place to go for yourself. I like going up there too. 00:22:36 Dave: So yeah, I remember John Garrick talking about that. He used to love fishing. They have this small lightweight outfit and go up and he used to have this Jeep. He’d four by and get out into the air away from people and and just find that little the dry fly fishing. Right. I think that’s maybe one of the killer opportunities there is that, you know, getting into those creeks and just, you know, right. Having it to yourself, finding a trout, right? 00:22:57 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:22:58 Speaker 3: The alpine lakes, but the alpine creeks, you know, if you really don’t want to see anybody go to the creeks and there’s plenty of little, you will be surprised how small some of these creeks can be and hold fish for anyone listening. If you look on a map and you see, you know, any creek in the alpine, it’s. It’s more than likely going to hold some fish in it. And like you said, like just go up there with a three weight. And you know, that’s why they make different, different rod sizes. It’s, you’re not catching a huge fish, but on a two weight or a three weight, it’s pretty fun. It’s gonna be fun. Yeah. 00:23:32 Dave: Nice. Well, you mentioned so we talked Clear Creek, South Platte, you know, what are the couple other opportunities around there? We’ve kind of covered, I think, high level on everything. Are there any other big opportunities or species that we haven’t talked about? 00:23:44 Speaker 3: You know, close to us, South Boulder Creek is is a pretty awesome fishery. It’s a there’s a tailwater section below gross reservoir. It’s been interesting. They’ve been doing a dam expansion project on it for the last few years. I want to say that’s supposed to wrap up in twenty eight. But their rate. So they’re raising it’s it’s a crazy project. It’s they’re raising the dam by one hundred feet. 00:24:08 Dave: Wow. 00:24:09 Speaker 3: So there is an existing dam. They’re kind of building on to the backside of it and raising it by one hundred feet. It’s going to hold three times as much water as it did before. 00:24:19 Dave: Oh my gosh. Wow. 00:24:20 Speaker 3: And I’ve got really high hopes for that tail water once that projects done because they’ve kind of been, you know, they mess with the flows based on, you know, for whatever reason, they feel like the construction project is more important than the fishery, I guess. So flows have been down to four cfs in the middle of winter and stuff, you know. So but once that’s done, there is a pool, you know, an amount of water set aside for conservation, for the for the fishery. So I think there is going to be a minimum flow on that. I, I couldn’t tell you what it is, but there’s a decent minimum flow. There’s going to be that place is a bug factory. There’s gonna be a ton of fish in there. 00:24:59 Dave: That’s cool. So so that’s one in the future that’s going to be good. Give it once they finish that project. 00:25:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. And it’s it, it’s good. Now I just think it’s if they have if they can keep flows at a minimum, there’s going to be some real quality fish in there. 00:25:11 Dave: What is and you guys have some travel maybe describe that a little bit where people are going. Do you kind of have a program there at the shop or your guys are heading out to? 00:25:19 Speaker 5: Yeah, so a lot of guys. 00:25:21 Speaker 3: A couple of the guys at the shop are taking trips around the, uh, Alaska this fall. You know, we do Mexico, Colombia, Patagonia in February. Uh, the guys from set fly fishing are actually just at the shop last night. So yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s super cool. We, uh, that’s been something that really. I gave the guys at the shop. I said, listen, if you guys can fill a trip, you can go. I just think it’s a great, a great perk for the guys you guys work in the shop are are awesome. We, uh, we were talking about this the other day. Our combined fishing experience for the guys at the shop is, is pretty vast at this point. We’ve been all over and fish for a lot of different species, which, you know, super helpful people come in, we’ve either gone where you’re going or we’ve at least fished for the fish that you’re targeting, which I think is, is super helpful for people. 00:26:14 Dave: Yeah, it sounds like it. It sounds like from the conversation today, you know, we’ve heard a little bit of everything, right? Sounds like you guys, you know, pike carp, trout, you know, lakes, streams, right. You guys, it sounds like kind of cover it all, which you have to because you’re in a place that’s centrally located and people are going everywhere. 00:26:31 Speaker 3: Yeah. And we’ve all kind of gone through our phases. So it’s, you know, it’s funny watching and we’ve, we’ve kept a good, good, solid core of staff for, you know, like a few years now. So it’s been funny to kind of watch everybody go through there with all the opportunities. It seems like every season everybody kind of latches on to something different and which I think is awesome. Sometimes I think, you know, I listen to people like on your podcast or whatever that are just kind of experts on one thing. And I think sometimes I, I think like, oh, that’s, you know, that’s really, really cool to be like, you’re the guy on this thing. And then I’ll try to do that and then I’ll be like, oh, well, I’m missing out on all this other stuff. 00:27:11 Dave: So that’s how I am too. I’m more of a generalist. I feel like, you know, it’s more enjoyable to get around and do it all if you can, although we know we never will get around to do everything right. 00:27:22 Speaker 5: And I think it’s cool. 00:27:23 Speaker 3: Uh, I’ve gotten to the point where with all these different things to do, there’s just like a kind of a good flow to my season anymore, you know, in the spring, that’s a great time to, to throw streamers for trout. You coming out of the coming out of winter, do a lot of wiper fishing in the spring just because that’s, you know, once the water gets warm, you’ll never see those fish again. They go deep. They’re only shallow for a certain amount of time, you know. And then as we get into summer, my kids get out of school and we’re fishing creeks and throwing dry flies, and then fall rolls back around. We’re targeting brown trout. And, you know, I think there’s just a lot of different opportunities, but you have to hit them, right? If you want to do smallies, you know, you have to do that kind of a certain time of year or a certain time of day. At least you don’t have to miss anything. You just have to figure out your calendar, right? 00:28:13 Dave: There’s a time for you, depending on when you get there and is the winner. Is that a time? Can you still or guys still out there in the winter fishing? 00:28:20 Speaker 5: Yeah, this is another. 00:28:21 Speaker 3: We were talking about other opportunities in, uh, you know, with the low water year, we’re lucky in Colorado to have as many tail water fisheries as we do like that. Deckers. Cheesman. Cheesman Canyon area of the South Platte is a just an excellent, excellent winter fishery. The Arkansas River down below in Pueblo is another great winter fishery in Pueblo is awesome because it. It stays warmer than the rest of the state. You know you’re down near the border with New Mexico, and even in the middle of winter we’ll see bluing, olive hatches and tricos really early in the year. So yeah, lots of winter fishing in most years. This this last winter, not so much. But a couple of the guys in the shop really like to get out and do some some ice fishing. 00:29:07 Dave: Oh, there you go. There you go. Yeah, a little ice fishing. Cool. And you mentioned some events at the shop. What does that look like throughout the year? Do you guys do you know what are your events? Is this like people are meeting up at the shop or other things? What do you have going? 00:29:20 Speaker 3: Yeah. So for the shop, we only do, I guess working through the year. We do a big spring barbecue, big party with a band and all the vendors. Super fun. This year we did two bands and we cook up. Actually, one of the guys at the shop now is like a trained chef. Right on. So he smoked up some barbecue that we’ve always done barbecue, but he’s amazing. Part free food, free beer, just kind of a customer appreciation day. 00:29:49 Dave: Cool. When is that? Typically in the spring. 00:29:52 Speaker 3: Uh, the first Saturday in May is what we’ve done the last two years, and that’s worked out well. So I think that’s, that’s what we’re going to stick with. And then throughout the summer, you know, different things. Little. We just did, uh, an event with Ron Bellak, who writes a book called eight hundred High Lakes of Colorado. 00:30:10 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:30:10 Speaker 3: That’s a that’s a great book for anyone living in Colorado that wants to get into alpine fishing, that that book is nice. 00:30:16 Dave: That sounds. 00:30:16 Speaker 3: Awesome. Awesome. 00:30:18 Dave: How do you spell his last name? 00:30:19 Speaker 3: Uh, b e l a k. 00:30:21 Dave: Okay. 00:30:22 Speaker 3: Yeah, he just gave a a presentation of the shop. Like I said, we just had the guys from set in. Um, August first this. We’ll have a I talked to him. We’re gonna set up another date because we’re full already. But August first, we’re gonna have, uh, Andy Mill come in and give a talk about tarpon fishing and administration and all that. And then, uh, end of September, we have, uh, an event with Blaine Chocolate. Um, there’s still some spots open on Sunday for the tying class for that. Yeah. He’s gonna do like a five hour tying class. I think we’re, we limited it to twenty people. 00:31:00 Dave: That’s cool. When is that? 00:31:03 Speaker 3: Twenty seventh, I think is the tying class. Twenty sixth he’s going to come in and give a talk that’s, you know, come in. That’s free. Come hang out. And he’s going to give a talk about streamer fishing. I believe. 00:31:15 Dave: That’s sweet. These are some some big events you guys have going. 00:31:18 Speaker 3: Yeah, we like to to give the customers that experience I think is is pretty awesome. 00:31:23 Dave: Yeah. I mean, Blaine and Andy Mill, you know, you know, two guys are pretty hard to top that, right? As far as their, you know, their kind of experiences out there and what they do. 00:31:32 Speaker 3: Yeah, this might be the peak. We might be all downhill from here. 00:31:35 Dave: Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. No, that’s the cool thing about fly fishing. You know, it’s, it’s the there’s so many great anglers out there, you know, that are just at that level. 00:31:44 Speaker 3: Yeah. There’s just, there’s so many different, there’s just so many different ways to do it. You know, there’s, there’s so many different perspectives to, I mean, even just in trout fishing and catch a trout a million different ways, however you want to do it. 00:31:57 Dave: Do you guys do, um, like, uh, guide, do you have guides out of the shop there or that sort of thing. 00:32:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. We do a lot of outfitting out of the shop. We we have everything from Clear Creek, like I said, seven minutes down the road all the way out to the Eagle, you know, two hours, a two hour drive away, uh, and some good, good private water options on the North Fork of the South Platte. That’s about forty five minutes from the shop and really, really awesome properties over there. 00:32:24 Dave: Nice. So basically, you guys, if somebody wanted to get a guide, they can come through your shop and get that covered as well. 00:32:29 Speaker 3: You come to the shop, you can book over the phone, you can book directly online. We switched over to a new booking agency this year and booking online. Super smooth. But you know, if you have any questions, give the shop a call. We’ll be more than happy to answer any questions you guys have. 00:32:46 Dave: That’s perfect. The Ron Black, the eight hundred lakes, high lakes. That sounds like a pretty great book. So that’s the alpine lakes. Is this something maybe describe what that event was like, what he covered there in the book? And can they pick that book up at your shop? 00:32:59 Speaker 3: Uh, we do have the book at the shop. He kind of gave, like, uh, he verbalized the book really well. So the book is broken down into different kind of sections of the state. He kind of went through, you know, a few different lakes in each of the sections. It’s a great book for for access. He does a great job of explaining how all the little service roads to get here and there and the hike and. 00:33:24 Dave: All right. Wow. So he covers the whole thing. Like you could literally pick this up and know, pick a lake in certain maybe in your area or nearby and just and he’ll walk you through the whole thing. 00:33:33 Speaker 3: Yeah. And he, he, you know, he holds back little information, but he tells you like there’s cutthroat in here. You know, when I went up there, they were ten inches long. If you can extrapolate out from that, you can do pretty well. 00:33:47 Dave: That’s amazing. Yeah. I feel like that’s a that would be a killer resource. Are there any other like, you know, as far as, you know, resources for Colorado, you know, other books, you know, guides, things like that that people would check out. 00:33:59 Speaker 3: Land and mayors. I think it’s called Best of Colorado. It’s Land and Mayors book. That’s an excellent, excellent book. Also, it kind of breaks down the state the same way that Ron does in a different geographical areas. And then, uh, he kind of goes through every, every river and gives you like a hatch chart and times of year. And that’s the book that when people just move to the area and they come in and I’m new to the area, or like, you have to buy this book because it’s gonna. 00:34:29 Dave: Oh, that’s it. Yeah. Is it the, um, Colorado’s best fly fishing? 00:34:33 Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah. That’s that’s it. 00:34:35 Dave: Yep. There it is. Okay, awesome. And I didn’t even realize that. I know we’ve been talking with Landon about some of his other books, but I didn’t realize that one, which is obviously, yeah, you gotta if you’re going to Colorado, that looks like that’s the one. 00:34:46 Speaker 3: It’s just a great book to get you started. I mean, if you move to this area specifically, Pat Dorsey has a great book that breaks down the entirety of the South Platte, which is just invaluable. I mean, that fishery can. It can be tough to figure out just being a tailwater. And then you add on top the amount of pressure that it receives. Those. I’m never gonna pretend like it. Trout is smart, but those fish have seen it all. You gotta you have to do everything right. You know, someone’s gonna comment on here and say that they they catch fish on the South Platte all the time, swinging size twelve, whatever. 00:35:24 Dave: But that’s not happening too often. You got to be pretty technical. 00:35:27 Speaker 3: It’s a technical fishery for sure, which you know, and that’s another rabbit hole that I think all everybody in the shop has gone down before. Like I used to go to Cheesman Canyon all the time and fish size twenty four midges. And you figure out, you know, it’s like we were talking about figuring stuff out. Figuring out places to fish is awesome, and figuring out a fishery is awesome and figuring out the puzzle of the day. You know what? What are these fish? Those fish get keyed in on something specific. You know, a lot of the time where you you need to adapt what you’re doing if you want to catch fish. 00:36:02 Dave: Yeah, that’s the fun part of it. And yeah, we are actually, we’ve been talking to land and we’re putting together a trip for, I think next for the spring. And we’re going to be heading down to that area. And we got some people coming in. So I think we’ll be stopping by the shop. Then we’ll definitely have some, you know, because it’s, uh, it’ll be on the way. Right? You’re right in that area. So that’ll be fun. 00:36:22 Speaker 3: Yeah. For sure. 00:36:22 Dave: Yeah. So it’ll be a cool time to check in. Check in then. Um, maybe just give us that picture on, you know, you walk in the shop right now. Let’s just say today we walk in, what are we going to see first when we look in the shop. 00:36:35 Speaker 3: Today, as of two days ago, you’re going to walk into the shop and there’s going to be a seventy two inch tarpon that’s going to be hanging right in front of your face. 00:36:44 Dave: Really. 00:36:45 Speaker 3: Well, we’ve got a twelve foot shark hanging from the ceiling that’s painted like a cutthroat kind of on a rod rack. The fly displays. We’ve got a huge streamer selection called the Steakhouse that has like a neon sign above it, steakhouse. And it’s old like grocery store. All the flies are in old grocery store displays. 00:37:07 Dave: Oh, right. 00:37:07 Speaker 3: The lights above them. It’s actually, uh, it’s funny. Every now and then you’ll hear a sound kick on, and it’s the old, uh, sprayers trying to turn on. 00:37:16 Dave: No way. 00:37:17 Speaker 3: You know, like for the water for dry freezes. Obviously there’s, you know, that’s all disconnected, but it tries to kick on every now and then. 00:37:25 Dave: That’s funny. Wow. Where did that idea come from? Has this been there for a while? 00:37:30 Speaker 3: The shark and all that stuff is Justin. Justin’s a madman. So that was all that was all before me. And shout out to Justin on all that and all the time. All the time he put in on Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace for that. 00:37:42 Dave: Right. Well, it’s a little different. So basically, yeah, you’ve got and then you guys obviously have everything else rods, gear. Are there any you guys kind of covered all. How does that work on the shop? You know, you got all these great brands. How do you how do you choose who you’re going with, which rods, which, you know, waiters you got like all that stuff. Is that a challenging thing throughout the year? 00:38:00 Speaker 3: I think the great part about having all of the brands is that, especially with rods specifically, is that we get to just put all the rods in someone’s hand. We go on the in the parking lot and cast them. And then, you know, you get to just choose, you know, we’re, we’re not whatever, you know, all these rods are great, but they’re all different. So what rod fits your casting style may not fit mine. You get to pick the one that just kind of fits you the best. I think at the shop we all have become good at changing our casting style to fit the rod, you know, because we want to give every rod a chance, but come in and cast the way that you cast, and we’ve definitely got something that’s going to fit you, fit you well. 00:38:44 Dave: Yeah. That’s the beauty of the fly shop, right? And we’ve heard that a lot that, you know, get in the shop, cast the rods. That’s why a big, awesome thing about having shops is you can test stuff out, right? Throw on some different lines. Like we said at the start, the pike fishing. I’m going up pike fishing and I’m, you know, I’m thinking, okay, nine weight probably is going to be good. And you guys probably have some ideas of a line that would fit with that, right? 00:39:05 Speaker 3: Yeah. For sure. I mean, you know, we’ve got, uh, five or six different, you know, flagship rod brands. A lot of those transfer down to kind of the mid price and entry level also. So we’ve got, we’ve got options at every price tier for everybody, which you know is nice. You’re not, no one’s ever pigeonholed, you know, no matter what your budget is, you come in, you’ll have options. The mid price rods anymore are so good that it’s insane. Well the new what the new mid price is right seven hundred dollars mid price for us. 00:39:39 Dave: Right. Things have gone up a little bit on some of that stuff. And do you do kind of like you have a river report on the, on your website where people can kind of get an idea of what’s going on. Do you guys keep that up to date? 00:39:49 Speaker 3: We do a river report that we try to update every week. We also have live flow chart. It updates automatically, hourly. It pulls information from USGS and you’ll be able to see live, you know, CFS for the rivers around here. And you know, those are great tools to figure out where you want to go. 00:40:08 Dave: Yeah. And then and then of course, just calling you, right? That’s if somebody’s coming through or need anything, just giving you a call would be a good way to get started. 00:40:15 Speaker 3: Yeah. Give us a call. We’re always going to at least try to steer you in the right direction. We wouldn’t be in business long if we were giving people bad information. Yeah, I think a lot of people sometimes get a they think that they’re not getting the real information from the dudes in the shop, but I can guarantee you that we’re never we’re always trying to steer you in the right direction. We want you to come back. So. 00:40:33 Dave: Exactly. Yeah. It seems like with the shop that, you know, it would it wouldn’t make sense to not give the best Intel, right? 00:40:40 Speaker 3: Yeah. But you’re, you know, you hear that some people come in and are you giving me the good, the good information. Or I can guarantee you we’re always giving you good information, at least to our knowledge. 00:40:50 Dave: Yeah. I mean, yeah, you’re not necessarily saying, you know, here’s a map and here’s the exact spot where you need to go. You know, that that probably wouldn’t be the best, but just kind of generally, you know, go to these areas. And I think we’ve talked about them today. I mean, I feel like, you know, we’ve obviously talked, you know, with Landon and others about some of the famous, but like Clear Creek seems like definitely a spot. And then all the, the alpine stuff, I think seems like another opportunity out there. 00:41:13 Speaker 3: There’s, there’s just endless opportunities. 00:41:15 Dave: Yeah. Is that what it is about Colorado? What is it that makes it. Because it is Colorado, right? I mean, it’s kind of the it feels like it’s the middle the Mecca, you know, like, what is it? Do you think about Colorado that makes it so special? 00:41:27 Speaker 3: I really do. I think it’s all the all the opportunities, all there’s, you know, we talked about a bunch of different ways today that you can catch a trout, you know, there’s, you know, for everything from creeks to alpine lakes, technical tailwaters, you know, and then you add in all these warm water species and, you know, if you’re in the front Range, your willingness to drive will open up a lot of opportunities for you. If you’re willing to extend that drive to two hours, two and a half hours. You know, now we’re now we’re talking about really famous, you know, freestone fisheries that we haven’t even touched on today. You know, the Arkansas River, the Colorado, the Roaring Fork. 00:42:06 Dave: Oh, man. Yeah. There’s tons. 00:42:07 Speaker 3: You know, it just depends on how far you’re willing to drive. There’s tons of options within an hour. And then each time you make a bigger concentric circle of how far you’re willing to go. You’re encompassing more and more opportunities. And the further you’re willing to go, the the more solitude you may find. 00:42:25 Dave: Nice. Well, and I’m looking at your website now, I just typed in just the search. So this is a good way. I just put in pike and loving it. The things that popped up, you’ve got like fly rod, you got flies, Saint Croix, you’ve got this book Mastering Pike on the fly, Barry Reynolds that looks like a pretty good book. Is that one that would be worth. 00:42:43 Speaker 3: I own that book. I referenced that book all the time before a Pike trip. I reread like a couple of the chapters, and I’m nowhere near an expert on on pike fishing. It’s something the last couple seasons I’ve been trying to get more and more into that book has has definitely helped me out a lot. 00:43:01 Dave: That’s great. No, that’s awesome book. I’m I have to pick that up. And then yeah, and then some other stuff. Fly lines. The real elite predator. Again, this is a search on your website and then you got a bunch of flies. You got CJ’s Chad Johnson Sluggo, the Lynches triple D. It seems like the website is that search a good way to if somebody had a question to use that search function on your website, does that work pretty well? 00:43:20 Speaker 3: Yeah, we spent a lot of time on the website. There was really not much of a website when I bought the shop, and I saw that as a huge opportunity, and we’ve put a lot of time into it that and you know, we’re trying to get the, the YouTube page off the ground, you know, just trying to be, uh, a one stop shop as much as possible, I guess is the best way to put it where you know, whatever you want, whether it’s products or information that we, you know, we have that for you. 00:43:49 Dave: Nice. What do you guys have planned for the YouTube page? Looking ahead, what sort of stuff are you going to be doing? 00:43:55 Speaker 3: Are we putting out, you know, more and more videos trying to do a lot of stuff on the water. You know, I’m sure Winter will be cranking out tying videos. But, you know, I just think it’s another way to stay engaged with, you know, customers and meet new people throughout the country or throughout the world. That’s a great way to engage with, with people even outside of our, our territory. And, you know, we’re all, we’re all just a bunch of dudes that girls that like fishing. So it’s fun to kind of grow that that group of people, people that are like minded. 00:44:28 Dave: Yeah, it’s a pretty cool community. I feel like, you know, the fly fishing is, is unique. It’s, it’s a cool group of, of just, yeah, people out there for the same, you know, it’s like, like I said, when we do these trips, these Atlantic salmon trip, right? You know, you guys, I’m sure are the same way you go out to these destinations. You have these people that come together for this trip, and some people don’t even know each other. And it always, it always works out great. Like everybody on the trips. I mean, we rarely have any issues. 00:44:53 Speaker 3: You know, I saw you at the fly fishing show in Denver. Yeah. 00:44:56 Dave: Oh, yeah. 00:44:56 Speaker 3: It’s just such a cool community. You know, every night we’re down, you know, at that at the fly fishing show, you’re down in the the sports bar and you’re catching up with different people. And, you know, there’s just a lot of a lot of cool people in the fly fishing industry. And then just people, you know, people that like fly fishing. I just think it, it’s fun. It’s what makes it fun to me at least, is the people. 00:45:18 Dave: Exactly. Yeah. We spent some time at the MFC, actually, MFC Phil Roy was there, you know, obviously with he does our Littoral Zone podcast and, and I was hanging out with Phil and then I hung out with some of the MFC folks there and we were chatting about stuff. And yeah, it’s just there’s all sorts of great stuff going and definitely the community. I think that’s what you’re about, right? The shop right community. Is that a big part? As we kind of take it out of here, is that are you always thinking about that? How do you build your community? 00:45:43 Speaker 3: It’s all I mean, it’s all about the community. I think we’ve done we’ve done a great job throughout the years. All the people that have come through, you know, worked at the shop. Justin, when he owned the shop, did a great job with this. And it’s all about the community. This is such a small industry. I don’t think I think a lot of people don’t realize how small it is. We’re just a bunch of weirdos that like fly fishing, and we all gotta, you know, try to stick together as much as possible. And that, you know, we’ve done a great job of building that community at Golden. We’re doing a great we, you know, we didn’t even touch on this. We have a second location down in Castle Rock. 00:46:17 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:46:17 Speaker 3: That we opened in the summer of twenty four. My business partner Kevin runs that and he’s done. He was in Golden from the beginning, and he’s gone down there and has done a great job of, you know, building a community down there. And, you know, that’s what I think the online portion is, is trying to build a community. You know, people that are outside of our driving range. I think it’s all about building community. So I think it all comes back to building community. I think every aspect of it is, is building a community and keeping it. 00:46:49 Dave: Exactly kind of over delivering and doing all that good stuff. Well, I feel like, yeah, The Fly Shop is a great place for that. Right? And you guys, it sounds like with your events. Yeah. I mean, you can’t beat some of the speakers you have going and you know, it sounds like you got the kind of the travel program, everything going here. So. Cool man. Well, we’re definitely going to have more here, Michael, to follow up with you on with everything because I want to hear, I want to dig more into this, you know, kind of some of the other stuff you have going. But I think we can leave it there today. And like we said, we’ll send everybody out. Head over to Goldenfleece shop dot com. They can check in with you guys, any of your program, ask you questions. But yeah, I appreciate all your time today. Give us a little high level on this and and we’ll be in touch here. Moving ahead. Sound like a plan? 00:47:28 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Dave. 00:47:31 Dave: If you’re interested in checking more into Colorado opportunities? Check in with Golden Fleece shop dot com, and if you want to check in with us, you can go to Wet Fly Swing Pro and find out more wet fly swing dot com slash pro, and you can find out how to access trips. Connect with the community here in Wet Fly Swing Pro, we’ve got a bunch of great events, great trips going on this year. If you want access to anything here, you can send me an email anytime, Dave at web dot com. I’ll let you know what we have going. And, and we’re going to be heading to Montana very shortly. So if you’re interested in checking in with that, let me know and I’m going to get out of here. Hope you’re having a great morning. Good afternoon or evening, wherever you are. And I appreciate you for stopping in all the way till the end. We’ll talk to you on that next one. 00:48:09 Speaker 6: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit Wet Fly swing dot com.
Colorado Fly Fishing

Conclusion with Michael Tolerton on Colorado Fly Fishing

Colorado truly offers something for every fly angler. From technical tailwaters and high-country creeks to carp flats and pike reservoirs, Michael shows why keeping an open mind can lead to some of the most memorable days on the water.

If you’re planning a Colorado trip, stop by Golden Fly Shop, ask plenty of questions, and don’t be afraid to explore beyond the most famous rivers.

     

958 | Carp on the Fly: Rick Mikesell’s Guide to Denver’s South Platte

In this episode of the Wet Fly Swing Podcast, Rick Mikesell shares why Denver’s South Platte has become a destination for fly anglers looking to challenge themselves with one of the smartest fish in freshwater. He explains how carp fishing improves your casting and presentation, how it closely resembles saltwater flats fishing, and what it takes to fool these powerful fish consistently.

While many anglers know the South Platte River for its world-famous trout fishing, the urban stretch running through Denver tells a different story. Here, crystal clear water, public access, and thriving populations of common carp create one of the best places to experience carp on the fly.

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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Show Notes with Rick Mikesell on Carp on the Fly

Rick Mikesell discovered carp while attending college in downtown Denver. In between classes, he began exploring the South Platte River and taught himself how to target carp on the fly long before YouTube tutorials and online courses existed.

Today, Rick guides anglers through Colorado Carp, where he offers guided trips, carp schools, and educational resources. He also writes fly fishing articles for MidCurrent and serves on the board of Denver Trout Unlimited, helping improve and protect the South Platte River through conservation projects.

His goal is simple: shorten the learning curve so more anglers can experience just how rewarding carp on the fly can be.

Denver’s South Platte Is an Overlooked Fly Fishing Destination

[00:05:11] The South Platte begins high in Colorado’s mountains, flowing through famous trout fisheries like Cheesman Canyon, Deckers, and the Dream Stream. But once the river reaches Denver, it transforms.

Instead of deep trout runs, anglers find:

  • Wide sand flats
  • Clear, slow-moving water
  • Public access along nearly 30 miles of river
  • Healthy populations of carp, smallmouth bass, catfish, and walleye

The result is an urban fishery unlike almost anywhere else in the country.

With Denver’s skyline in the background, anglers can sight fish for large carp only minutes from downtown.

Photo by Rick Mikesell (instagram)

Why Carp on the Fly Is So Challenging

[00:16:14] Rick says carp reward precision more than almost any freshwater species. Unlike trout, carp rarely chase a fly. Instead, they feed close to the bottom and typically move only a few inches to eat. That means presentation matters far more than fly selection.

Rick teaches anglers to:

  • Cast beyond the fish.
  • Use a drag-and-drop presentation.
  • Allow the fly to settle naturally into the feeding zone.
  • Watch the fish eat before setting the hook.

Carp also have excellent eyesight and sensitive hearing, making stealth one of the most important skills on the water. As Rick explains, success comes from slowing down and making the very first cast count.

Why Carp Fishing Makes You Better at Saltwater Fly Fishing

[00:21:20] Rick often recommends learning carp on the fly before booking a saltwater trip. Many of the same skills used for bonefish, redfish, and permit apply directly to carp. Learning these techniques close to home can build confidence before heading to the flats.

  • Spotting fish before they see you
  • Accurate casting
  • Quiet presentations
  • Reading fish behavior
  • Setting the hook at exactly the right moment
Carp on the fly feeding.
Photo by Rick Mikesell (instagram)

The Best Time for Carp on the Fly

[00:37:25] According to Rick, anglers can catch carp throughout the year on the South Platte.

Spring

Pre-spawn females feed aggressively, making March and April the best months for trophy fish.

Spawn

During May, carp spawn throughout the river. Between spawning activity, many fish move onto shallow flats and feed heavily.

Summer

Summer offers the classic sight-fishing experience. Fish spread across shallow flats, become more active, and fight harder than at any other time of year. This is also when anglers are most likely to see backing disappear from their reels.

Photo by Rick Mikesell (instagram)

Rick’s Recommended Gear for Carp on the Fly

[00:43:28] Rick likes to keep his equipment simple.

Rod

Fast-action 6- or 7-weight fly rod.

Photo by Rick Mikesell (instagram)

Line

Floating fly line.

types-of-fly-line
Photo via https://intoflyfishing.com/best-fly-lines/

Leader

Approximately 8½ feet with:

  • Nylon butt section
  • 30 lb fluorocarbon
  • 16 lb fluorocarbon tippet

The heavier tippet helps anglers pull fish away from concrete walls, bridge pilings, and other urban structure.

Photo by MidCurrent (instagram)

Favorite Flies

[00:49:37] Rick also believes presentation is more important than matching an exact food source. Rather than changing patterns constantly, he adjusts fly weight to match current speed and water depth.

Some of Rick’s confidence patterns include:

  • Tungsten Bead Jig Woolly Bugger
  • Barry Reynolds’ Carp Fly
  • Detroit Mobster
  • Hipster Doofus
  • Whitlock’s NearNuff Crayfish
Wolly Buggers
Wolly Buggers photo via https://www.leichichina.com/6036.html

The Denver Carp Slam

[00:52:27] Rick also shares the story behind the annual Denver Carp Slam, one of the country’s longest-running carp tournaments.

The event raises money for Denver Trout Unlimited, helping fund:

  • River cleanups
  • Trash removal
  • Water quality projects
  • Conservation efforts
  • Habitat improvements

Each team fishes with an assigned controller who verifies every catch, ensuring the tournament remains fair while building a strong community around the South Platte.


Connect with Rick Mikesell

Instagram: @rick_mikesell

Facebook: Rick Mikesell

Urban Fly Fishing Guide and Carp on the Fly Schools

Instagram: @coloradotrouthunters

Facebook: ColoradoTroutHunters

Website: Colorado Trout Hunters

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Instagram: @midcurrent

Facebook: Midcurrent

Website: Mid Current

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Instagram: @riversmithusa

Facebook: RiverSmithUSA

Website: River Smith

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Instagram: @denvertroutunlimited

Facebook: Denver Trout Unlimited

Website: DenverTroutUnlimited

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Instagram: @scientificanglers

Facebook: Scientific Anglers

Website: Scientific Anglers

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Sponsors and Podcast Updates

Carp on the Fly Resources Noted in the Show

Colorado Carp

Rick’s guide service includes guided trips, instructional articles, and educational videos.

https://coloradocarp.com/

Golden Fly Shop

A longtime Denver fly shop offering gear, local knowledge, and guided trips.

https://goldenflyshop.com

Denver Trout Unlimited

Learn more about conservation efforts supporting the South Platte River.

https://www.denvertu.org

Related Podcast Episodes

Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Dave Stewart: If you’ve ever driven through Denver, there’s a good chance you’ve crossed one of the most interesting urban fisheries in the country without even knowing it. Today, we’re heading into Denver’s South Platte, where carp thrive in an overlooked stretch of river outside of the famous trout water. Rick Mitchell joins us to explain why this fishery is so unique, why carp deserve a second look, and what it takes to consistently fool one of these fish on the fly. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. In this episode, you’re going to find out how to approach moving water carp without making the mistakes most anglers tend to make. Out there, we’re also going to find out how carp behavior changes from spring through summer, and what this means for your hookup ratio, and also why sight fishing for carp can make you a better angler for redfish, bonefish, and saltwater. We’ve heard this before. It’s a great place to start if you’ve never gone for salt and prepare for your next trip. Plus, the story behind Colorado’s Carp Slam and how it’s helping improve Denver’s South Platte. All right. If you’ve ever been curious about carp or planning a trip through Denver, this is the episode and a great place to start. You can learn more about Rick from Colorado carp dot com. Here he is. Rick. Michael, how you doing, Rick? 00:01:20 Rick Mikesell: I’m doing great, Dave. Thanks for having me. 00:01:22 Dave Stewart: Yeah. Thanks for putting some time together today to put together a great episode on carp. You’re well known, especially in the Denver South Platte Carp, you know, urban carp fishing. And we’re going to talk about that today. What makes it a little bit different and, you know, flowing waters and kind of that part of the Colorado. We’re actually heading there this early next year. And I think it’s a cool opportunity for people, you know, coming through, you know, and we’re going to talk about that, how people can get access to something, you know, maybe they’re flying through stopping or whatever. But, but maybe before we jump into that, give us a little heads up on how you came into carp and to be known as the carp guru out there. 00:02:00 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. So, um, I went to school right downtown in Denver, um, at Metro State College. And the river was, uh, I don’t know, maybe two hundred yards out off of campus. And I had big gaps in between my class schedule and I like to fish. And I decided I was going to figure out how to fish that river. And back then, really the only thing around for carp fishing specifically, and the Denver South Platte was Barry Reynolds and Barry’s book carp on the fly. And it was kind of in the early days of the internet forums and things like that. Um, but there wasn’t YouTube videos, there wasn’t in-depth resources. So I kind of had to go figure it out on my own. And if I ran into Barry Reynolds on the river, I’d ask him questions and kind of annoy him a little bit. But outside of that, it was a lot of self learning. And so as I kind of kept doing it and kept doing it. I started working for a fly shop here in the Denver area, and when I was at the fly shop, I get lots of folks coming in and asking questions as they started to learn more and more about warm water opportunities here in Colorado. And that kind of morphed over a decade in the fly shop and more accidentally than intentionally. I started building resources for folks that wanted to learn how to catch carp on the fly, particularly in moving water, just because it was something that I never had, and I had to learn so much on my own by trial and error. So I started guiding in the Denver, South Platte probably about ten years ago, more as a instructor than a true guide. I would do carp on the fly schools and take groups of folks out and just get the the learning curve cut down because it’s, it’s so very different than trout fishing. And you really have to learn the idiosyncrasies and how to do it and kind of break some of those bad habits. And now I work for River Smith up in Boulder, Colorado. So on the other side of the industry as the wholesale director, so I sell to fly shops all over the country and do all of their support for our fishing brand. But I also still guide this summer with the low water we’ve had here in Colorado and the the interest in warm water fishing exploding has been the busiest guiding summer I’ve ever had. And then I also write a bunch of articles on gear for mid current dot com. So, um, I kind of live and breathe fly fishing all the time. And I really don’t know what else I could do with my life. Now I’m kind of kind of buried in it. 00:04:38 Dave Stewart: You’re in it. That’s really cool. Yeah, I think we’ve talked about that a little bit. The fact that it’s going to be a low water year summer here, and that the fact that, yeah, the carp, it sounds like carp are going to be they’re going to be okay. Sounds like the summer fishing is going to be fine for carp. 00:04:52 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. It’s going to be excellent for carp, for bass, for all of those warm water species that don’t really mind temperature. Um, they’re going to be happy. They’re going to be eating. Um, really the only negative we have for this year is some algae bloom type stuff. But they’re such hearty fish. They’re so good at being fish that even that’s not really going to impact them. 00:05:11 Dave Stewart: Not a big deal. That’s really cool. And, and can you describe maybe the South by because I know, you know, we’ve talked about the South Platte. It’s this amazing river. Describe maybe where you’re fishing there. And in comparison to some of the other maybe trout areas of the South Platte. 00:05:26 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. So the South Platte starts way up high in South Park, Colorado. It’s a it’s a little meadow stream full of, uh, awesome trout that live in undercut banks and eat dry flies. And then it goes into a couple systems of tail waters and their world famous tail waters, eleven Mile Canyon. The Dream Stream, Cheesman Canyon, deckers, um, all of those those major tail waters full of bugs and full of fish. And in a summer like this, some of the. The very few places you can find cold water consistently for trout fishing. Um, those are all fairly close to Denver within two hours. So they’re beautiful fisheries. I mean, Cheesman Canyon is one of the most gorgeous places on the planet to go fishing. They have consistent cold temperatures, but because of that, they kind of get pounded. They’re busy all the time and it can be very technical fishing. So great places to go fishing. Uh, I think Pat Dorsey once said, if you can catch a trout in the South Platte, you can catch trout anywhere. Uh, so good places to up your game. And then once you get into Denver, you hit Chatfield Reservoir. And that’s kind of the last major reservoir in the system. And Chatfield is unique in that it was originally created as flood control back in the the sixties, we had a one hundred year flood in the Denver area that wiped out what was the suburb of Littleton at that time and caused a bunch of infrastructure damage throughout the metro area. So Army Corps of Engineers came in, they built this dam and this reservoir to hold those flood waters back, and then they channelized the South Platte through town all the way out to the eastern suburbs. And what that means is essentially it’s a big flat bottom and forty five degree super high bank angular side. So if there was ever another flood event, it would just push all that water out to the eastern Plains and not impact the metro. And what that created over time was a playground for, for carp and smallmouth bass. It’s not the greatest water from a speed and oxygenation standpoint to support trout. And quite frankly, our ambient temperatures here in the city in the summertime aren’t great to support trout, although there are a bunch of trout in the river that do great. What it created is lots of big sand flats. And as they started adding, uh, weirs and structures and pullouts for irrigation and things like that, lots of concrete and troughs and holding water. And as folks did a lot of work to the river, as a lot of urban rivers have seen in the last three or four decades to improve water quality, the warm water species like smallmouth bass and carp have just taken off. And we have unbelievably clean water, unbelievably clear water for most of the year. It’s it’s gin clear. So it’s a sight fishing Paradise and lots of really unique structure and setup. So in that thirty miles of public access that you have through the metro area, um, there’s a bike path on at least one side, so infinite places to fish, um, throughout the river and you have clear water, you have lots of fish, and you have setups and structures that just make for all kinds of fun and challenging presentations to find carp and smallmouth bass and catfish and walleye and all kinds of crazy species. Yeah. There’s, uh, a really robust walleye population in Chatfield Reservoir, and they’ve got out over the years through the bottom of the dam and kind of set themselves up in the river and they’re walleye. So it’s, it’s definitely a late fall, early spring or low light days during the summer game. Um, but when you can find them, they’re big and they like to eat streamers. So it’s a ton of fun. 00:09:30 Dave Stewart: Wow. So you’re fishing. So the area is the flowing water in there. Denver is pretty much that flows right through kind of near through downtown and through that area. 00:09:39 Rick Mikesell: It does. Yeah. So it starts in the southern suburbs at Chatfield Reservoir Follows the kind of Santa Fe Drive corridor goes right to the west of downtown Denver, uh, right past Mile High Stadium, right past Northfield. Um, you can see the skyscrapers in the background. You can see the sports stadiums in the background, you can see the theme park in the background, and then it goes through a very industrial area, uh, Commerce City, and it flows past a wastewater treatment plant and a coal fired power plant. And we call it the stink kind of as a term of endearment. It’s kind of smelly out there, but the water quality is still great. And then once you get past the industrial area, it kind of rolls out into the northeastern suburbs and it gets back to its more traditional structure, um, which is, is very wide and very shallow. So once you get to the northeast, um, you’re looking more for sloughs and concrete structures and things like that. So it’s within a thirty mile stretch. You can find any number of different scenarios to catch fish. You can find different concentrations of species. You can find clear water in one place where there’s murky water in another, because so much water is either getting pulled out for irrigation or coming back in from industry. It’s a pretty special fishery, and I’ve traveled all over the country to fish for for carp and all kinds of other things. And I’ve definitely never seen a fishery that’s as diverse in both species and structure and access and opportunity. Um, so I feel pretty lucky to call it my home river. 00:11:24 Dave Stewart: That’s really cool. I’m guessing a lot of people are coming through. Do you get a, a mix of people that are just kind of coming into Denver, you know, kind of flying through and fishing that? Or is it more kind of local folks from around? 00:11:36 Rick Mikesell: It is exactly that mix. Yeah. So most of my clients guiding, I have folks that are Denver locals that have embraced the warm water side, and they want to learn how to do it on their own and be efficient at it. So they’ll book me and we’ll do more educational trips so they can develop the skills to figure out how to go out and do it on their own. And it’s pretty cool. I’ll have clients from four or five years ago that’ll still text me like, hey, I was out on the river today. Look at this awesome fish I caught. 00:12:05 Dave Stewart: Nice. 00:12:06 Rick Mikesell: So kind of setting them up to be successful on their own. And then the other side is a lot of folks want to come to Colorado and throw a day of fishing on after a business conference or a meeting or something like that. And the trout fishing is great and it’s not overwhelming, but it’s, it’s still a two hour drive into the mountains with traffic and a lot. Whereas if they’re staying at a hotel downtown, I can swing by and pick them up and we can drive ten blocks and be fishing in in less than five minutes. 00:12:35 Dave Stewart: That’s. 00:12:36 Rick Mikesell: Cool. And they can sneak in a day on the river. So it’s a lot of fun. And it’s, it’s very easy to access. The river is essentially depending on traffic. Twenty minutes from anywhere in the metro area. 00:12:47 Dave Stewart: Right on. Nice, nice. That’s cool. And and do the carp. You mentioned some of these species. I mean, where did the carp come from originally? Do you know that little history. 00:12:55 Rick Mikesell: I do, yeah, it’s a pretty cool story actually. And I kind of lean into it a lot. So there was a federal program in the eighteen seventies where a German strain of carp were transported on rail car all over the country and deposited in these bodies of water that folks had essentially depleted of native fish stocks. So in Colorado, in the Denver, South Platte Carp were introduced by the federal government in eighteen seventy nine. So that’s prior to brown trout. That’s prior to rainbow trout. Um, so so you get a lot of like the carp or invasive rhetoric online, right? And, uh, the, the short answer here in Colorado is they’re slightly less invasive than the non-native trout species right there. 00:13:41 Dave Stewart: More wild than the brown trout. 00:13:42 Rick Mikesell: Yep. So it’s pretty cool. And there are a few like lakes and ponds where they’ve overpopulated. But most of that kind of rhetoric is is a little bit flawed. In the seventies, when things were getting bad with water quality, the the more game fish species were struggling because of pollutants, because of temperature. And the carp were doing just fine. And it was easy for folks to assert that the carp were outcompeting them, or taking habitat or taking food, when in reality, they were just way better at being fish than the other species. And in the Denver, South Platte, I mean, there’s definitely an unbelievable balance. There’s so much food in that system that everything that swims in it, whether it be a carp or smallmouth bass or walleye or rainbow trout or brown trout, they’re all big and healthy and fat and aggressive. So it’s a very well balanced fishery. 00:14:36 Dave Stewart: Fishing expeditions offers world class fly fishing right off Alaska’s incredible road system. From monster rainbow trout to feisty Arctic grayling, you’ll chase big species in the stunning landscape. Whether you’re a seasoned angler or just starting out there, expert guides ensure an unforgettable adventure. Book your trip today before spots fill up and experience Alaska’s diversity like never before. Check them out right now that’s Fishing expeditions dot com. Golden Fly Shop isn’t your average fly shop. They have a twelve foot shark painted like a cutthroat, hovering over a huge selection of the best rods in the business, a massive assortment of tying materials and their famous steakhouse streamer display. 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Carp, hasn’t done it in the like flowing waters, which just sounds like you’re doing here, you know, what are the first steps to getting them going? 00:16:14 Rick Mikesell: So carp fishing is an entirely visual game. The thing that makes carp so big is they don’t expend more energy to consume food than they can gain from taking in that food. So they’ve they’ve gotten really good at math and that’s how they get so big. So they’re not going to waste a bunch of energy chasing a fly down when they can just root around and have stuff pop up very close to them. And kind of the rule of thumb is they’re most willing to move about three inches max to eat. So your presentations have to be super, super tight to the fish because they’re not going to waste a bunch of energy to chase it down. The other challenge in that is twofold. One, they have unbelievable hearing. So they actually have what’s called a weberian apparatus. It functions like an eardrum so they can physically hear a lot of fish species just pick up vibration through lateral line. They have a really intense lateral line so they can pick up that vibration. They have great eyesight. They can see in color, so they can be very, very spooky. So if you need to get a fly within three inches of their face and just smack it in there to get it down, they’re going to spook immediately. So we use some presentation techniques. The most popular, which is the drag and drop where you’re casting way past the fish. You’re getting the fly way up high in the water column, and you’re controlling it with a drag and letting it go and fall right in their little feeding window. To further complicate it, their mouth is a giant olfactory organ. So like a nose and a tongue combined, and it’s lined with those olfactory sensors. And when they pick up a fly, that is chicken feathers and steel, not real food, they know immediately it’s not real food and they eject it. So sight fishing, you have to be able to see where your fly is. You have to see that it’s in the zone and you have to see the fish eat it and set the hook, or else it’s going to eject it almost immediately. So the biggest hurdle is being able to get that fly close to the fish without them seeing you and being able to watch everything go down and set the hook at the appropriate time. And in moving water, you have the current that’s going to push the fly to the fish as well, which is even more complicated because prey never swims towards a predator. A two inch crayfish is never going to swim at a ten pound carp. And in trout fishing, folks are trained to get the drift and get a drag free drift and have it drift into the zone. And that’s that’s counterproductive. In carp fishing, the fly always needs to be either not moving at all or moving away from the fish. So the very first thing we do in carp school is I have a, a balsa wood carp dummy that’s weighted with a brick in the front, and we call them Carl the carp. And we go out and we set them up and we practice taking shots. So casting past the fish, dragging, dropping it in the zone, keeping our line tight the entire time. So when the fish eats, we can transfer that energy via set immediately. How to approach from behind. They have a nice little blind spot where their tail is because they’re generally really fat fish, and the girth kind of blocks their. Their monocular eyes and really practicing being sneaky. The closer you can get to these fish, the more effective your presentation is because you can control the fly and you can see everything go down. So rather than casting forty feet, I would rather hide behind bushes and trees and I generally wear full camo and ask that my clients do when they come out and we get really close and we can just swing the fly out, set it in the zone, give it some, maybe some micro movements if it needs it, watch the fish eat and set the hook. Sometimes it just a litas length. So getting good at being sneaky and not tromping around the bank or stepping on sticks and leaves, things like that. That’s a that’s a huge advantage. So we practice, practice, practice the presentation. And in this game and what I’ve kind of found in carp all over the the country is fly doesn’t really matter that much. Carp are voracious omnivores. They’ll eat plants. They’ll eat animals. They’ll eat bait fish. They’ll eat bugs. Uh, if you present something that kind of looks like food they’ve eaten in the past and present it well, they’re probably going to eat it. They’re not going to get hatch specific and only size twenty two tacos. Uh, they’ll they’ll eat leeches. They’ll eat worms. They’ll eat eggs. They’ll eat crayfish if you present it well. So having the ability to get really good at the presentation and not worry so much about the fly choice details, that’s a huge advantage that I’m trying to teach folks in this carp school. Um, the one important thing about the fly though is, is weight is imperative. It’s, it’s super important. So I don’t really care so much about what I’m imitating. I care a lot about what weight I’m throwing. And in deep, fast water, I’m throwing really heavy flies, five and a half millimeter beads on, uh, very thinly tied profile. So it cuts through the water and gets down quick. And if I’m in really skinny water, I’m throwing very lightly weighted flies. So I’m not adding any splash that I need. So. So my fly selection is always way more about weight than it is about pattern. It’s all kind of in that, that leech crayfish, um, sometimes baitfish, sometimes worm profile. So getting folks to do that. And then we talked a lot about how hard carp are. But the really awesome thing about them is they have super gummy mouths. And if you get a good hookset and bury a barbed hook in that super gummy mouth, we’re using really heavy tackle. They’re not leader shy. So mostly sixteen pound saltwater fluorocarbon. There’s really no way for them to fall off. And that’s kind of the cool thing is once you hook them in the mouth, they’re going to stay hooked unless they wrap you around a bridge piling or a shopping cart or something like that. So the fighting part is more about keeping low rod angles and keeping them out of structure. But the hook up to landed ratio is is in the high ninety percent unless something really bad happens. So teaching folks how to, how to use low rod angles and keep keep fish out of junk is the kind of the, the culmination of the class. And the cool thing is, is these techniques translate really well to saltwater, particularly sight fishing and fighting big fish. So folks that are getting ready for redfish trips or bonefish trips, they’ll kind of book this as a, as a practice primer to go get ready for saltwater. So there’s that advantage as well. 00:23:09 Dave Stewart: That’s awesome. And is the carp school something you still do? 00:23:12 Rick Mikesell: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I can do one on ones at any time. And then I partner with a number of fly shops here in the front range, uh, to do group classes that are a little bit less expensive. Uh, there’ll be one coming up this August with Arbor Wranglers in Lafayette, Colorado. Um, so, uh, a bunch of different ways to get around and do it and learn about carp and guided trips, just one on one guided trips. There’s a big learning component to that as well. So I like teaching. I like, as you can probably guess from me rambling on for the last twenty minutes talking about these fish. So always available as a resource to kind of help folks get over the hump and be effective at catching them. 00:23:51 Dave Stewart: That’s awesome. Nice. And so we have that resource for sure. Talk about again, you know, back on the flowing waters, you mentioned kind of some heavier stuff in the faster water. Describe that again how you would position yourself to get that fly if you’re in some. And I’m just picturing a kind of concrete line channel, is that what a lot of this is in that urban area? 00:24:11 Rick Mikesell: Uh, there’s some of that. And then there’s a lot of, uh, big flats with troughs, big sandy flats with official kind of retreat in the trough. That’s kind of their safe area. And then they’ll come up on the big sand flat and feed. And there are fisheries similar to this all over the country. Um, I think the LA River in California is one that immediately comes to mind. But a lot of the moving water fisheries in other places in the country tend to be turbid and muddy and off color. And kind of what’s unique about our fishery, and maybe the LA River is just the crystal clear nature of it. So there’s advantage there that you can see the fish really well and find them quickly, but there’s also disadvantage that they can see you really well and they find you quickly. So the best case scenario in a moving water presentation is fishing downstream to the fish. That’s ideally what you want because you can use the current to essentially swing the fly and get it into the zone. And if you’re up on the surface with that drag and drop, the current can push it. It can push it right to left. It can push it down and up. And you can have a great vantage point of where the fish is feeding and get it down in the pocket really effectively. But that’s just the best case scenario. There’s lots of other scenarios where they’re facing downstream or you’re downstream and behind them. And rather than have to lead them and take multiple shots to, to get the fly down in the pocket, because most of the time they’re going to be feeding off the substrate, they’re going to be tailing the really heavy flies. Just take out that variable so you can, as soon as you release the tension on that heavy fly, it’s just going to drop cut through the water column, get in the pocket right in front of the fish. Uh, so you can really control that and get it down quickly. The downside of the heavy flies is they’re, they’re really splashy. So you have to utilize that drag and drop and put the fly way past the fish and get it up nice and high so you can control it until it’s in that zone and release the tension and get good at kind of doing some angular math. Whereas if you’re in a really fast current, you may have to release the tension three feet in front of the fish. So the fly will follow that current angle down. If you’re in softer current, you can release the fly six inches in front of the fish so it gets down in the zone. It’s a fly blasts past them or bumps them. They’re done immediately and you’re not going to get another shot. So, um, getting good at judging those angles is something that you got to practice when you’re doing this game. And all carp across the country, regardless of where they live. Uh, maximizing first shots is really important. Uh, if you can get the fly in their zone on the very first shot before they see you or feel you, they’re quite a bit more likely to eat. Whereas if you take three or four shots, they’re probably going to, if they don’t hard spook, They may still pick up your shadow or pick up your cast and start to spook and get off the feed. So getting good at making that first shot count is a big advantage for folks trying to do the carp anywhere in the country. 00:27:30 Dave Stewart: Yep, that makes sense. So back to that. So one option is, you know, maybe in a perfect situation the fish is downstream, you’re above it and you’re kind of swinging your fly and maybe a flowing water swinging and kind of drag and drop in it and then swinging it in where it kind of it sees it and then you drag it away. Is that kind of what one scenario could be? 00:27:49 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. And I think the dragging it away part is something that’s important to clarify. They’re not going to chase the fly. So when we’re making movements they’re micro movements. So some of that comes down to fly choice. Uh, using flies that have marabou or chenille or little pieces of foam in the tail so that when it hits the bottom, the fly itself with the current is just making movements on its own without imparting any action into it. That’s a huge advantage. And then if for some reason the fish doesn’t react immediately when it’s in the zone, our movements are. They’re not strips. They’re at bare minimum, just micro rod twitches. So just bumping that fly half an inch, an inch forward, just enough to imitate maybe a leech that’s burrowing in or a crayfish that’s in the defense mode. If you give it a strip and strip it six inches away from the fish’s face, they are. They’re not going to waste that energy to go eat it unless they’re really, really happy. So that’s one of the things in carp schools that I think is a little bit difficult for people to grasp in the beginning, is they’re so used to stripping streamers fast or drifting, um, really slowing down and getting movement without imparting a lot of distance is a huge advantage in this game. 00:29:11 Dave Stewart: Yep. That’s it. That makes sense. Okay, so it’s micro tweaks or twitches with the rod tip, not giant strips. It’s not they’re not going to chase. Okay. And then and there’s lots of different it sounds like depending on where you are, you know, if the fish is above you, it’s going to be a little bit different. So. And what do you think is a good. So we’re kind of discussing this. You mentioned a book at the start. Um, it sounds like an older book. What other resources are out there where people can take this. Obviously if they can’t make the Carp score is there are a lot of stuff on YouTube out there, or do you have some resources on your website? 00:29:40 Rick Mikesell: Yeah, there’s there’s infinite resources now, and it’s kind of kind of awesome that folks can learn this on their own without having to invest a bunch of failure time into it. So lots of great books have come out. Um, Barry’s Carp on the fly book. Barry and Brad still holds true. It’s still a great book and has lots of awesome information from a fly standpoint. Jay Zimmerman, who’s a Colorado local and a really amazing fisherman, he has an awesome carp flies book that goes through patterns and tying Kirk Dieter from Trout Unlimited and Angling trade. He has a. I think it’s the Orvis Guide to Carp Fishing, uh, which has a ton of awesome information. And then in the video sphere, personally, I’ve done a bunch of videos for my former fly shop and for a handful of other folks that go through drag and drop technique that go through how to read water in the river. And those are all on my website. If anyone wants to check them out. There is a lot of misinformation out there on carp. Um, there’s a lot of YouTube videos that I come across that are just not good information. 00:30:49 Dave Stewart: What’s some of the biggest misinformation you hear out there on on carp? 00:30:53 Rick Mikesell: So a lot of folks try to trout fish for them. And it’s not, it’s not always wrong. I mean, there’s no hard and fast rules in this game. There have been times where I’ve indicator fished in the wintertime and cut carp in the mouth. There are fisheries that indicator fishing does really well. I know the LA River is one where Lino Ubaldo. He does really awesome with indicator fishing out there. But what I found in our river is that particularly in the winter, when you have twenty five, eight to seventeen pound carp stacked up in a pool with very low flows, fifty cfs, and you drag a heavily weighted nymph rig through the middle of them, you’re going to hook something, and it’s not a carp in the mouth. It’s usually a carp in the tail or in the butt or in the fin. And I definitely see folks out there on the internet that will post pictures, and I think it may just be more they don’t understand. Um, but carp don’t eat with the outside of their mouth. They don’t eat with their cheeks. They don’t eat with their fin. Um, they only eat with the inside of their mouth. And if we’re going to do something as unimportant to the progress of humanity is catch carp on the fly. Then we should probably do it right? 00:32:13 Dave Stewart: Right. Have them eat it. You want them to eat it, not us to set the hook into their mouth sort of thing. 00:32:18 Rick Mikesell: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that’s the fun of it. I mean, my fishing sight fishing specifically. You hear people talk about sight fishing for tarpon, where the way that they present their fly is their language to the fish, and they’re talking to the fish through their presentation and telling this fish to eat me. And when you have that connection with the fish and you present it well, and the fish decides this is real food, I’m going to eat it. That’s the ultimate connection with that fish. So if you’re doing it blind and just hooking stuff to hook stuff, you kind of take away that. The beauty of the sport, I guess. 00:32:57 Dave Stewart: Exactly. No, that’s well said, I agree. It’s it’s all the effort. That’s the amazing thing about carp is that they’re tough to catch. Right? And now when you go out, there is somebody going to go out there and get skunked. Uh, you know, regular on a regular basis is something that’s pretty. I mean, it’s challenging, right? Is that, uh, is that something that happens? And how do you avoid, uh, that sort of situation? 00:33:18 Rick Mikesell: I mean, I’ve been doing it for twenty five years, and I’ll still get skunked. There definitely is. When you lock into doing things a specific way is the the likelihood of getting skunked goes up. If I want to catch a fish in a specific stretch on a specific fly in a way that I want to do it, there’s a good chance maybe I can get skunked when I’m adaptable and go out. And if it’s not happening in a spot and jump in the car and drive a mile upstream or drive a mile downstream. And that’s the beauty of the the Denver, South Platte is there’s so much access that you can move all day and find different water temperatures, different water clarities, different food sources, and probably find a positive fish that’ll eat. Then you have all those advantages and doing it on your own. I think the first year that I did it myself, I think I fished for two or three months before I finally caught a fish. So I kind of want to remove that learning curve for folks that are trying it on their own. When I go out with clients, my goal is to get them a fish. What I classify as a good day for myself or for clients is if we catch three fish. That’s an awesome day. That’s what I want to see for the best case scenario. And then every once in a while you have those those magic days. I’ve had a couple twelve, thirteen, fourteen fish days on the river. And those are the days that just your arms so tired by four o’clock, you’re just ready to call it because it’s so unbelievable. But for folks that are trout fishing, when they you hear those those guys on those big western tail waters, forty, fifty fish days, that’s never going to happen in carp. And you never want it to happen in carp. If you pulled pulled that hard on that many fish, your arm would be incapacitated for a month. 00:35:06 Dave Stewart: Yeah. I feel like, you know, it’s one of the numbers thing is kind of a fun, you know, interesting thing, right? Because of course we want to catch fish, but how many fish do you need to catch? You know, I feel like with carp, you know, you get into it. I’m sure that first fish is amazing. And then but at some point. Right. I mean, one or two or three fish, it’s almost like steelhead fishing or Atlantic salmon. You know, you’re feeling pretty good if you’re getting into a couple few fish. Is carp kind of the same thing? 00:35:29 Rick Mikesell: Absolutely. Yeah. Three is my number when I go out and fish on my own. If I catch three, that’s that’s the good day. And sometimes that’s kind of like a little self challenge. Whereas if I get off work and I have an hour to fish and I put one in the net right away, it’s like, oh, I got to get my three. So I’ll do some things to push myself to get two more. But really, in my personal fishing, the thing that drives me is a really cool eat. If I have a fish that’s, that’s opposite bank and I make the perfect cast opposite bank, throw a big men and go upstream and the fish chases a foot and eats it all the way on the other side of the river. And it’s just like, that was worth it. That’s what I wanted. Was that cool? Eat. Or if a fish rises up in the water column as the fly is falling and and eats it just below the surface, rather than waiting for it to drop to the bottom. Those cool eats are kind of what I live for. 00:36:20 Speaker 3: Fly fish with me. Utah discover year round blue ribbon trout fishing on the famed Provo River. Choose a guided walk and wade or a scenic float and experience big trout, stunning canyons and unforgettable days on the water. You can book your adventure right now at Fly Fish with Me, Utah dot com. World class water. Incredible fishing. That’s fly fishing with me. Utah dot com. Today’s show is brought to you by Visit Idaho and Yellowstone Teton Territory, a place that should be on every angler’s list, from the Henrys Fork to the South Fork of the snake, and all the hidden creeks and alpine lakes in between. 00:36:56 Dave Stewart: This region is built for fly fishers who like a little room to roam. You can head over to Netflix dot com slash right now for guides, lodges, and trip ideas to plan your next adventure. That’s Teton T e t o n. Well, tell me this on some of the more, maybe more of the basics, you know, timing, stuff like that. Gear. What is the you know, I guess again, somebody’s thinking maybe they’re coming through Denver. Is there a time or is this kind of throughout the year you could you can hit this. 00:37:25 Rick Mikesell: We’re really spoiled in Colorado. We have I think three hundred days of sun is what they say in the marketing materials. So the DSP, the Denver, South Platte rarely freezes. And we generally get in December, January, February, at least a couple days in the fifties, sixty degree range. So if the water’s clear and there’s an ambient temp swing, it is very reasonable to go out and catch carp in the middle of winter on the river. So I think I’ve consecutively caught a fish on the fly. Since every month of the year. Since like two thousand and four, two thousand and five. Oh. Like that. So it is a year round thing. But the winter game is it’s very different. It’s on the right day with the right conditions. And those fish are cold. When you hook one, it’s it’s pulling in nine pounds of wet sock. Still fun, but it’s not as cool as it is in the summertime. 00:38:23 Dave Stewart: Yeah. What’s the summertime is so is the so the fights a little bit different on the summer versus winter. 00:38:28 Rick Mikesell: Oh yeah. Very different worlds, worlds of difference. We kind of have once we get into March and April, we have that pre-spawn period where all of the big females are just gorging and putting on pounds to try to get ready for their big spawn. That usually happens in about May and the March, April, early May time period is when you have your opportunity to catch the biggest fish of the year in late April early May, a fish that’s Sixteen seventeen pounds for the rest of the year could be twenty four twenty five pounds with the egg load, so I’ll have clients book me in March and April. And those are my my trophy giant carp trips and those big females, they don’t love to chase flies. They need flies presented to them pretty close. And once they’re hooked, they still pull really hard. But you’re not going to see backing because they’re, they’re full of eggs and they’re, they’re really uncomfortable. And you get a big fish, but it’s not the the crazy, crazy fight. And then in May, you go into the spawn and carp spawn in a unique way. They’re broadcast spawners. So a female will spew thousands of eggs as she’s moving. And two, three, four, five males will kind of jockey behind her and try to fertilize those eggs. And once they’re fertilized, they stick to any piece of vegetation that’s that’s around. So when you see the carp spawning, it just looks like Cannonballs going off, up and down the river, smashing and crashing and thrashing all over and in the spawning act. Those fish, they don’t care about eating. They’re they’re more focused on procreation, but they’re they’re burning a ton of calories doing that spawning act. So in the morning, in the evening, and sometimes in between bouts of spawning, those fish will go to the flats and they’ll just gorge. So the spawn can actually be one of the best times of the year for numbers, because you find those fish recuperating in between spawning bouts, and they’re just hyper focused on eating and probably a lot less spooky than they are the rest of the year. So the spawn depending on water temps goes through late May, sometimes into June, and then we get like the peak of summer, kind of the classic carp fishing. That’s what we’re in right now, where the fish have spawned. They’re kind of putting some calories back on, but water temps are ideal. Water conditions are ideal. And this is where you have that classic scenario where you’re seeing, uh, fish spread out a little bit more, maybe packs of ones and twos or singles versus big groups of thirty or forty. And you’re finding classic tailing fish up on flats, you’re finding fish recycling, and this is the time of year we’ll fish, we’ll move the furthest to fly their metabolisms the highest, and they’ll move maybe six inches to a foot to chase a fly. And if they miss it, sometimes they’ll chase again. So it’s really exciting visual fishing. And because their metabolism is peaked, this is when the fight is at its best. So I fished on my lunch break yesterday, and I was in a very small little creek, and I had a fish take me into backing. Um, I have fish take me into backing all the time this time of year. And that’s just because they’re, they’re jacked and they’re, they’re hot and they have their max metabolism. And this is where your gear really gets tested and you have to make sure that you, you’re good at your knots and you’re good at your backing knots. True saltwater gear this time of year. 00:41:57 Dave Stewart: God. That’s great. What is the, um. I mean, you talk about twenty five pound fish. Is that kind of the upper. What’s the biggest fish you’ve ever heard of out there? 00:42:05 Rick Mikesell: So my personal best in the river is thirty three pounds. Wow. It was a big pre-spawn female with clients. This year I’ve caught, I don’t know, seven or eight fish in that twenty to twenty four pound range. And those are the the fish of the year. The average fish in the river is about ten twelve pounds. A good fish is a high teens and then the twenties are really special. And then every once in a while a mondo thirty pounder pops up. 00:42:32 Dave Stewart: Crazy, crazy. Again, I, I tend to go back to steelhead sometimes, but that’s kind of similar to steelhead, right? Wild steelhead where you got the upper teens as a trophy. And if you’re in the twenties, the thirties, that’s just crazy, right? That’s crazy size. 00:42:46 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. The, the reality of how big a thirty pound fish is. Um, if you’ve never touched one, is. It’s insane. They’re difficult to lift up. They’re difficult to get your hands around. Uh, the tail on a thirty pound carp, like you can’t put your hand around it to support it for a picture. People see these fish in the river and they’re. They just think because they look so much bigger than other fish, they’ve seen that they’re all twenty pounders. And in reality, they’re all nine or ten pounders. But when you actually hold a twenty pounder or hold a thirty pounder, they are just unbelievably big. 00:43:20 Dave Stewart: That’s big. You mentioned the the gear. Talk about that just a little bit here on the rod. So what’s your typical rod and weight and stuff like that? 00:43:28 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. So I fish, uh, sixes and sevens faster sixes or just any seven. That’s kind of the perfect place to be. And you don’t need that for the casting, albeit the flies are pretty heavy, so it helps. The six or seven is more about fighting the fish. It’s just having the backbone to fight efficient current. Our river isn’t super huge, but there is current and concrete and structures that you have to keep them out of. So having a rod that has some backbone, or the converse of that, having a really soft rod that you can fight the entire fight the fish with the entire rod, like a glass rod. Those are both different ends of the spectrum that are effective. Um, I do tend to prefer faster action rods for beginners, and I like the faster action rod because it’s easier to load it. And the first shot is so critical in these fish that if you can get the fly moving and get it loaded quickly and minimize false casts, then you’re going to have a higher chance of catching the fish. So a fast action rod is just quicker to get loaded, um, floating lines across the board. Um, I haven’t found a scenario where you ever need a sinking line. And the floating line is important because you need to be able to keep that fly high for the drag and drop presentation. And the way that I tie my leaders is with most of the butt section being nylon. So that also floats so I can keep my fly nice and high in the drag and drop. And then my last two sections of leader, I usually go thirty pound fluoro to sixteen pound fluoro our um fluorocarbon. So they sink quick. So when I release that tension, the tippet section of the leader sinks fast, cuts through the water and gets down in the pocket. Sixteen pound fluorocarbon is saltwater tippet. It’s what most if classes are for tarpon, you can pull unbelievably hard on it and not break it. But if you snag in a tree or snag on a log, you still can pull hard enough to break it without breaking your rod. So that’s kind of the sweet spot. And then reel does matter in this game. Having a decent drag is a plus because if you have a janky reel with a poor drag, it may work on fish one and fish two, but eventually it’s just going to blow out. So you don’t need to spend a ton of money on gear, but have something at least with a decent drag. And we’re spoiled in fly fishing right now. Our our mid price point and entry level gear today is better than a lot of premium gear fifteen years ago, so you can get really nice. I’m a I’m a rod and reel snob. I fish nice stuff. I love my ables. And people kind of give me a lot of guff because I’m beating the the holy crap out of ables by throwing them off bridges and setting them down on concrete. But the cool thing about the ables is because they’re that cold rolled sixty sixty one T seven. I think that’s the the aluminum, they’re indestructible. And I’ve had lots of reels, spools, bend frames, break, break, feed off. Um, and I can throw those ables off bridges and let them land on concrete and they just keep going. They’re indestructible. And when you see these reels, they’re beautiful hand anodized fancy colors, which just gashes and gouges and scratches all over them. You think I’m a madman, but gears should work. No trailer queens. 00:46:59 Dave Stewart: Exactly. Nice. And and on the back to the the leader. So you have the sixteen pound tippet and then how long are typically is your leader. 00:47:07 Rick Mikesell: So I generally build slightly less than nine foot leaders. So eight and a half. Um eight ten and the idea behind that is, is um, when you get these short shots where you’re sneaking up on a fish and you’re just reaching out and swinging it and setting it gently on their face. If you have leader in the tip of the fly rod, um, and the fish eats immediately, that knot or that loop can get caught on the tip top and just blow off your tip. And you’re fighting the fish with just the butt section. And if something breaks off, you’re losing two to three sections of rod. So I tie my leaders shorter than the rod. So there’s always fly line out of the tip when I’m making the presentation and I do on my personal rods, cut the loop off and Snell the leader just so it can’t slide in and out of the guides. Um, I do know that that reduces the lifespan of my fly lines, and that loops are better for longevity, but I just don’t want that loop to get caught in a guide and blow my tip off. 00:48:09 Dave Stewart: And why are loops better for longevity? 00:48:11 Rick Mikesell: So when you cut that loop off, you’re essentially exposing the core of the line, and water can wick up the core and essentially break down the adhesion to the core. And I know it’s really cool for folks based on kind of the flip palate, mad River videos to cut off their loops to get that, that energy transfer. And for me, that’s kind of here nor there. I think that casts just fine with a loop. I just don’t want to blow off my tip. And that’s the only reason I cut them off. 00:48:40 Dave Stewart: Gotcha. And then you use a Snell. Not not like a nail not or anything like that. 00:48:45 Rick Mikesell: Snell or nail is fine. Yeah. They’re they’re very similar. Yeah. Yeah. And you can throw a little bit of super glue on there to try and seal up that core. Um, but eventually it’s gonna, it’s gonna peel off. 00:48:55 Dave Stewart: That makes sense. Yeah. The loop is, the loop is nice because it’s easy, right? You could switch things out. It’s kind of, you’re not cutting your line out, but I guess is that a big deal? Let’s say you use a nail knot and you’re switching your line up. You’re just cutting off chunks. That doesn’t seem like that’s a big deal at all. It’s more the fact that you’re opening it up to impacts. 00:49:12 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. And once you put on a good piece of butt section, I mean, even cutting and changing, that’ll last you six or eight months before you need to put on a new piece of butt section. 00:49:22 Dave Stewart: Yeah. Because you’re using the, the, the nylon butt section to retie if you need to. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So that’s the leader and then give us a couple of flies. So somebody now is thinking they’re going to be going out. What’s the it sounds like it does. It’s not critical, but what’s your go to one fly and does it change throughout the year? 00:49:37 Rick Mikesell: Uh, colors will change a little bit. And then specific scenarios will bring in some kind of adjacent off the bench flies. But in the DSP and a lot of other places that I fished the most all around do everything. Fly is a tungsten beaded jig woolly bugger. I mean, that’ll catch everything in the carp world, but in the river itself, that’ll also catch walleye. It’ll catch smallmouth bass, it’ll catch the trout. It catches everything. And I like peacock bodies on mine. Um, I think that iridescence of the peacock just looks so buggy. It could be a bunch of different stuff. And I’ll switch between rust and grizzly or black. And when I tie my guide flies for my clients, I generally tie it with a orange bead that I use as a hot spot, just so the client and I can track the fly and see where it is at all times. And then a couple different sizes. Twos and fours. Uh, I’ll fish the twos Prespawn into the spawn those bigger fish, just to have a little bit more meat to not lose them. And they tend to not care so much about size. And then in the summertime right now, I’ll, I’ll maybe size down to fours if they’re, they’re not super keen on the big flies. A couple commercially produced carp patterns out there that are really good. Uh, Darryl Eakins, um, who works at Anglers Hall here in Denver and is an Umpqua signature tire. He has some awesome carp flies. His Detroit Mob City is a mob that fishes really well in the river or in Stillwater. And then for instances where I don’t need a ton of weight, where I’m staying high in the water column or in skinny water, uh, his hipster doofus is one of my best producers. And then kind of classic flies, uh, Barry’s carp fly from Umpqua. Uh, my my old friend Barry Reynolds, he kind of started the whole thing and he does an awesome job with it. And then Dave Whitlock’s near enough. Crayfish is one of the best crayfish patterns out there for all species. 00:51:38 Dave Stewart: So yeah. No, those are great. I love always, it’s good to get some good names in there. And the. Was it the hipster doofus? Was that the hipster doofus? 00:51:45 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. 00:51:46 Dave Stewart: Darryl. That’s classic. 00:51:47 Rick Mikesell: Darryl’s a Seinfeld fan like me. So he’s got a Seinfeld Seinfeld theme flies. 00:51:52 Dave Stewart: Oh, that’s classic Seinfeld. Yeah. So I love that. This is good. Okay. Um. Well, good. Let’s take it out here real quick with our kind of, uh, this is our winner shout out. You mentioned at the start, um, Blake Strauss was the winner of one of our giveaway events. So we want to give a big shout out to Blake, um, for the big win there and for kind of connecting this topic today. So this is awesome. And I just wanted to do a little kind of tips, tricks and tools random segment here. But start with the one thing we haven’t talked about was the Karp Slam. Maybe talk about that. I know there’s a, there’s a couple of these, maybe a few of these around the country, but is this something that is a regular thing out there? 00:52:27 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. So this is going to be the twentieth year of Karp Slam. Um, so Karp Slam is the primary fundraiser for Denver. Trout unlimited, which is the group that Blake and I and a bunch of other awesome people are a part of. And our mission is really unique in the Trout unlimited sphere is. We only are concerned with the improvement of the Denver South Platte below the water line from Chatfield to one hundred and sixty fourth. So the entire urban corridor. So all other trout unlimited chapters have trout streams in their charter. And we have a warm water fishery in our charter. So it’s a little strange, but it works really well and trying to limit it’s been great to us and we have some interesting challenges in our river where we can’t just go do a stream restoration and put some boulders in or plant willows. Everything is a floodplain that’s controlled by Army Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Reclamation, and any in-stream work is hundreds of millions of dollars, and we definitely play in those worlds as a stakeholder. But the two things that we can do in our unique urban river is, uh, bad decisions by urban polluters. And we’ve had some pretty big victories in court against some industry that’s tried to do some less than good things to the river. And the other thing that we can do is pick up trash. And being in an urban area, stuff flying in off the highway, wind blowing it in unhoused populations that live on the river. Although the water quality is unbelievable and the fishery health is unbelievable, there’s trash everywhere, and it kind of gives the river a little bit of a black eye because people see it and they see how trashy it is. So we’re funding cleanups. Um, we do ten a year with in partnership with Protect Our Rivers, which is another awesome cleanup organization. Uh, we do one off cleanups throughout the year and we’re piloting some kind of point source trash collection solutions to try to solve the problem where it’s coming from. So we’re doing a study with the Colorado School of Mines that is putting game cams in key places along the river and trying to find out where all this trash come from. And they have built this giant database that amalgamates all the data and can tell us where the trash is coming from, so we can try to go to the source. And then we’ve also got a couple pilots. We’re putting these big booms in tributaries that come into the river. So when we have a big rain event, all of the trash that flushes in from the bank gets stuck in these booms, and we can clean them out and we can keep them out of getting into the main stem. So all that work costs a lot of money, and the carp slam is our way to build the money to do all these things for the river. And the way that tournament works is essentially you have fifteen teams of two. Um, there is a slam bassador class and a slam tour class And the Slam ambassadors are folks that either have a lot of previous carbon Denver, South Platte experience or industry celebrities or folks from manufacturer partners, people that can take the slam, assure the person that’s maybe newer to the river and wants to learn and in this tournament, showcase chunks of the river for the day and kind of teach them how to to get after carp and how special the river is and things like that. So the fifteen slam bass and the fifteen slam matures have a fundraise off. And that’s going on right now where they reach out to their networks and their businesses and their friends, and they try to fundraise as much money as humanly possible. And the top fifteen fundraisers from each class, uh, on September first, get invited to fish in the tournament. And we’ve raised just year after year record breaking money through this platform. People get really excited about it. It’s a huge sense of community and a lot of fun. So people get way into it. And based on all the stuff we’re doing, we need all that money really bad so we can keep doing those things. So on the night prior to the tournament, the fifteen Slammers and the fifteen Slam ambassadors, uh, we all meet up at a, at a local brewery that supports us and it’s a random draw, so you don’t know who you’re going to fish with until the night before, and you don’t know where you’re going to fish until the night before. So you get a partner and you get two random sections of river, and you go out that following Saturday and you try to catch as many inches of carp as humanly possible. That’s for first, second, and third place. And then we have all kinds of side challenges and side prizes for biggest trout, biggest walleye, uh, smallest carp, all kinds of fun stuff like that. And it is two days of fishing, of community, of partying. Um, we do the, the first night as a party for the beach and then a huge after party after the tournament with awards ceremony and prizes from all the major manufacturers and, uh, lots of great food and drink. And, um, the really cool thing about the Denver carb community is it’s, it’s so open and sharing and everyone’s friends, um, I’ve fished carp a lot of other places in the country and there’s, there’s scenes and those scenes can be some online bickering or maybe some, some kind of trash talking. And then sometimes scenes have that here in the Denver scene, everybody’s friends, everybody shares information. Everybody has a great time. Everybody loves the river. And, um, it’s kind of it’s a pretty special, special community all around, around this funky little river. So that’s going to be September nineteenth. We are looking for donations to competitors to raise money. We’re looking for prize donations to reward the competitors for all of their hard work. Um, we’re looking for volunteers to be controllers. And that is one of the unique things about this tournament is it’s maybe the most above board rule wise tournament out there. Um, we kind of talked about how carp maybe aren’t super hard to snag in the butt and in some other carp tournaments around the country. It’s honor system. So there may be a little bit of gray area there. Uh, for the carp slam, you actually get randomly assigned a controller who is your beat judge who verifies that the fish is caught in boundaries, that verifies the fish is caught in the mouth and does all the measuring. So there’s no padding of numbers on on total inches. 00:59:24 Dave Stewart: Wow. This is kind of like the. Yeah, we’ve been covering the team USA event that’s in Idaho this year. And yeah, same thing, right? They got controllers. They got it’s all it sounds like it’s at the same level as that. You guys have put some time into it. 00:59:36 Rick Mikesell: Yeah. I mean, other than the schmutz. Cooper uh, up in Oregon, I think we’re the we’re the second oldest carp tournament in the country. 00:59:44 Dave Stewart: So that’s it. Really cool. Well, this has been awesome. Rick. I think that, um, we could probably leave it there and I for sure will have to follow up with you as you move forward here. And definitely as we get to Denver, I’m sure some people are going to be connecting. We’d love to get out on the water. And, uh, yeah, I just want to thank you for all the information today and all the resources. It’s been great and I hope to keep in touch with you. 01:00:04 Rick Mikesell: Yeah, super glad to do it. I appreciate you having me. And when you make it out here to Denver, um, give me a ring. The river is, like I said, twenty minutes from anywhere so we can go out and spend some time and see all the cool stuff that swims in it. 01:00:15 Dave Stewart: Sounds good. We’ll talk to you then. 01:00:17 Rick Mikesell: All right. Thanks, Dave, I appreciate it. 01:00:20 Dave Stewart: There you go. If you want to remember one thing in this episode today, it might be this great car. Fishing is all about presentation. Slow down, make your first shot count, and don’t be afraid to look at familiar water a little bit differently. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it out with a friend who might love checking in with carp. If you’re interested in connecting with us more, you can join Wet Fly Swing Pro. You can go to wet fly dot com slash pro and your name right there. And we’ll follow up with you when we open our next cohort and we open the next crew that’s coming up real soon this year. And, and also want to give you a heads up, we’ve got a couple of great episodes coming up here tomorrow. We’re staying in Colorado this week, and tomorrow we got Michael Torrington from Golden Fly Shop. Stay tuned for that. We’re going to be taking a deeper dive into Colorado here this week. And if you’re interested in any events, including the London mayor trip we got going, this is the London Mayor school. You don’t want to miss this. We do have one opening that just popped up for the London Mayor School. Send me an email, Swing dot com and just put Landon Mayer in the subject line and let me know. This one is definitely going to go quick. We’re kind of announcing it here for the first time. So if you’re interested in fishing with one of the best out there in Colorado this year on the South Platte in the trout water, uh, and including some private trout water, that’s a good one to check out. And I want to thank you again for stopping in here all the way till the end. I want to thank you for checking the show out and hope you can stay with us for the next one. Like I said, Colorado tomorrow and we’ll be moving around the country. If you want to get an episode in your area, please send me an email. I mentioned that before, Dave at web dot com, and we’ll put that together for you as soon as we can. All right, I’m out of here. Hope you’re having a great afternoon, evening, or morning, and we’ll look forward to talking with you on the next episode. We’ll see you then. 01:02:04 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing Show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly dot com.

Conclusion with Rick Mikesell on Carp on the Fly

Carp on the fly is about much more than catching an underrated fish. Rick Mikesell explains that it teaches patience, precision, and the importance of making every cast count. From mastering the drag-and-drop presentation to reading fish behavior and supporting conservation through the Denver Carp Slam, this episode shows why Denver’s South Platte has become one of the country’s top destinations for fly anglers looking for a new challenge.

Whether you’re planning your first carp trip or sharpening your skills for future saltwater adventures, Rick’s insights offer practical lessons that can make you a better angler. Have you ever fished for carp on the fly, and what lesson has the species taught you on the water?

     

In the Bucket #22 | Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer & Marty Howard on Steelhead, Fly Design, and Fishing Culture

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In this episode of In the Bucket, Brian Niska welcomes Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer, and Marty Howard for a thoughtful discussion about steelhead fly fishing and the values that keep the sport alive. Their conversation goes beyond flies and techniques, exploring how mentorship, craftsmanship, books, conservation, and community continue to shape fishing culture today.

Whether you’re new to steelhead fishing or have spent decades on the river, this episode offers a reminder that the greatest lessons often come from the people willing to share what they’ve learned.

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Show Notes with Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer & Marty Howard on Fishing Culture

Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer, and Marty Howard are three highly respected names in the steelhead fly fishing world. Together, they all bring decades of experience as guides, fly tyers, authors, educators, and craftsmen who have helped shape modern steelhead fishing while preserving its traditions.

Through this episode, they share each of their stories about fly tying, mentorship, conservation, and the values that continue to define fishing culture. Their combined experience offers valuable lessons for both new and experienced anglers.

Today, Jonathan continues to share that passion through Midnight Sun Custom Flies and his newest venture, Alaska Steelhead Camp, where anglers can experience Alaska’s legendary steelhead rivers while learning directly from experienced guides. Alongside Dec and Marty, he shares stories about fly tying, mentorship, conservation, and the values that continue to define fishing culture. Their combined experience offers valuable lessons for both new and experienced anglers.

Why Steelhead Fishing Culture Is About More Than Catching Fish

[00:02:30] he conversation begins with what fishing culture really means. For Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer, and Marty Howard, the pursuit of steelhead is about more than landing fish; it’s about the friendships built on the river, the lessons shared, and the traditions passed from one generation of anglers to the next.

They explain that the heart of fishing culture comes from people who willingly share their knowledge and inspire others to enjoy the journey. Whether it’s mentoring a new angler or swapping stories after a day on the water, these shared experiences help keep the traditions of steelhead fishing alive.

  • Fishing culture is rooted in relationships, not just fishing success.
  • Mentorship remains one of the best ways to learn.
  • Stories and shared experiences preserve traditions.
  • Every angler contributes to the future of the sport.
Angler in fishing culture
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/midnightsuncustomflies/

How Fly Tying Preserves Steelhead Fishing Culture

[00:15:20] Fly tying has always been one of the foundations of fishing culture, especially in the world of steelhead. Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer, and Marty Howard explain that tying flies is about more than catching fish—it’s about creativity, craftsmanship, and preserving traditions that have been passed down through generations. Every steelhead fly reflects years of experience, experimentation, and lessons learned on the water.

Jonathan also shares the story behind his self-published book, Steelhead Fly Tying Guide, highlighting the lasting value of printed resources in preserving the history and techniques of steelhead fly tying. Together, the guests remind us that every pattern carries a story, helping keep the traditions of fishing culture alive for future anglers.

Fishing Culture and the Art of Choosing the Right Fly

[00:28:10] When everyone has favorite patterns, the guests explain that confidence, presentation, and understanding the water often make a much bigger difference than constantly changing flies. Instead of chasing every new pattern, experienced anglers learn to trust the flies they know and focus on fishing them well.

This perspective reflects an important part of fishing culture. Success isn’t built on owning the newest fly or the latest material—it’s earned through observation, patience, and time spent on the river.

Rather than overcomplicating fly selection, they encourage anglers to fish with confidence and enjoy the learning process.

Confidence catches more fish than constantly changing flies.”

Dec Hogan Fly Fishing Culture
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/dechogan/

Books and Mentors Keep Fishing Culture Alive

[00:42:30] Before there were online videos and social media, many anglers learned through books, local fly shops, and experienced mentors. The guests remember studying fly plates, reading classic steelhead books, and spending countless hours practicing what they learned before ever expecting success on the river. Those experiences helped build a deeper appreciation for both the craft and the traditions behind it.

Although many anglers today have access to more information than ever, they agree that books still offer something unique. They preserve the history of fly fishing while encouraging readers to slow down, study, and develop their own understanding of the sport.

Learning directly from years of experience, anglers also remain one of the most valuable ways to grow. A single day spent fishing with a knowledgeable mentor often teaches lessons that can’t be found online.

How Online Communities Are Shaping Steelhead Fishing Culture

[00:56:15] The way anglers learn and connect has changed dramatically over the years. From the early days of Spey Pages to today’s social media platforms, online communities have made it easier to share steelhead fly patterns, fishing reports, and techniques while helping grow fishing culture around the world. Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer, and Marty Howard reflect on how these spaces have connected anglers and encouraged the exchange of knowledge for generations.

While technology has changed the way anglers communicate, the guests agree that the strongest lessons still come from meaningful conversations, mentorship, and time spent on the river. They believe online communities are valuable tools for learning, but the traditions of fishing culture are ultimately built through shared experiences on the water.

Steelhead-Fly-Fishing-Culture.webp
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/alaskasteelheadcamp/

The Role of Spey Pages in Building Community

Before social media became part of everyday life, many steelhead anglers gathered on Spey Pages, one of the most well-known online communities dedicated to Spey casting and steelhead fly fishing. The guests recall spending time on the forum, reading discussions, asking questions, and learning from experienced anglers who generously shared their knowledge.

For many anglers, Spey Pages became more than just a discussion board. It created a place where friendships formed, ideas were exchanged, and anglers from around the world could connect over a shared passion for steelhead fishing. Those conversations helped preserve traditions and encouraged a spirit of mentorship that continues to influence fishing culture today.

Social Media’s Impact on Modern Fly Fishing

Social media has opened the door for anglers to discover new techniques, destinations, and fly patterns from almost anywhere in the world. A single photo or short video can inspire someone to tie a new fly, improve their casting, or plan a future fishing trip.

The guests appreciate how these platforms have introduced more people to fly fishing and created opportunities to learn from guides, fly tyers, and conservation advocates. At the same time, they encourage anglers to avoid chasing every new trend they see online. Building confidence comes from spending time on the river, experimenting with different approaches, and learning what works through personal experience.

Why Steelhead Fishing Culture Matters

While technology has transformed the way anglers share information, Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer, and Marty Howard agree that no website, forum, or social media platform can replace time spent on the river. They encourage anglers to use online resources as a starting point, but believe the best lessons come from observing steelhead, learning from mentors, and gaining experience on the water.

At the heart of fishing culture is more than the pursuit of steelhead it’s the mentorship, craftsmanship, conservation, and friendships that grow along the river. These shared experiences build lasting skills, strengthen the steelhead community, and remind anglers that time on the water will always be the greatest teacher.

  • Time on the water is the best teacher.
  • Online resources should complement, not replace, real experience.
  • Mentorship and observation help build lasting skills.
  • Fishing culture grows through shared experiences.

Conservation Is at the Heart of Steelhead Fishing Culture

One of the most meaningful parts of the conversation focuses on conservation. Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer, and Marty Howard explain that fishing culture is about more than enjoying the pursuit of steelhead, it’s about protecting healthy rivers and wild steelhead populations for future generations. They believe conservation has always been a defining part of the steelhead community, built on respect for the fish and the waters they depend on.

Rather than criticizing anglers who are still learning, the guests encourage education, stewardship, and leading by example. Teaching proper fish handling, respecting regulations, and sharing good habits on the water are simple ways every angler can help preserve fishing culture and protect wild steelhead for years to come.

Passing Fishing Culture to the Next Generation

[01:23:45] As the episode comes to an end, the conversation turns toward legacy. They reflect on people who influenced their own journeys and the responsibility today’s anglers have to share that knowledge with others.

Whether it’s introducing someone to fly tying, lending a favorite book, helping a beginner learn to cast, or simply spending a day together on the river, these small moments help preserve fishing culture. The traditions of steelhead fishing continue because experienced anglers choose to pass them along.

For Dec, Jonathan, and Marty, the future of the sport depends not only on healthy fisheries but also on anglers who are willing to teach, mentor, and inspire the next generation.

Why Steelhead Fishing Culture Matters

Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer, and Marty Howard remind us that fishing culture is built on far more than the fish we catch. It’s reflected in the mentors who’ll guide us, the books that preserve history, the flies tied with care, and all the conversations shared along the riverbank.

At its heart, steelhead fishing culture is built on more than memorable catches. It’s rooted in mentorship, craftsmanship, conservation, and the friendships formed along the river. These shared experiences create a community that values not only the pursuit of steelhead but also the responsibility of protecting the fisheries and traditions that make the sport so meaningful.

Fly-Fishing-Culture-being-discussed
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/martyohoward/

Connect with the Guests

Jonathan Farmer

Facebook: @jonathan.farmer.1447 & @alaskasteelheadcamp

Instagram: @midnightsuncustomflies & @alaskasteelheadcamp

Website: midnightsuncustomflies & alaskasteelheadcamp

Alaskasteelheadcamp

Dec Hogan

Instagram: @dechogan

Facebook: Dec Hogan

Website: flyfishingspecialties

Marty Howard

Instagram: @martyhoward

Facebook: @martyhoward

Wasatch-Fly-Tying-and-Fly-Fishing-Expo

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

Fly Fishing Culture Resources Noted in the Show

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Episode Transcript
00;00;02;02 – 00;00;18;07 Dec Hogan A lot of it is for us. It’s satisfying. It keeps us close to our sport. We get to create things and the way we want to see them. And then when you talk about the beautiful flies, there are, you know, a trailer, trash flies, beautiful in its own right, Right. A rose by any other name. It smells just as sweet. 00;00;18;21 – 00;00;25;17 Dec Hogan But when you get into your personal expression and what feels good to you, and that’s what’s important in the end. 00;00;30;24 – 00;00;55;19 Brian Niska And welcome to In the Bucket, the podcast that explores the culture of space fishing in the Pacific Northwest, a spectacular land of mountains and wild rivers where every cast has a story to tell. I’m your host, Brian Niska. In today’s show, we’re going to be joined by three guests who share a passion for fly tying and steelhead fishing. 00;00;56;04 – 00;01;27;29 Brian Niska They’ve all made significant contributions through writing and instruction to shape our culture. I’m pleased to present a show with Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer and Marty Howard. Yes, we are back for another fun episode, so once again it’s time to get in the bucket. All right on, folks, We’re back and very excited today, joined by three absolute weapons in the steelhead world, I’ve got Deck Hogan, Jonathan Farmer and the legend Marty Howard with me today. 00;01;28;15 – 00;01;39;22 Brian Niska Deck, why don’t you take a moment to tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, but, you know, if they’ve listened to the show before, they’ve they heard you on a previous episode and obviously you need no introduction. So I’m just talking for no reason here. You go ahead, my man. 00;01;40;04 – 00;02;04;13 Dec Hogan Oh, hey, Doc Hogan right here. And happy to be here again with my two amigos. Three amigos, and haven’t really spent a whole bunch of time with Jonathan either. There’s some couple phone conversations and some text exchange, but it’s good to see you. And then Marty. Hey, he’s old. He’s old family. We were yakking it up on the phone this morning just because so. 00;02;05;09 – 00;02;35;10 Dec Hogan Yeah, man. Been at this for close to 40 years now and just still loving every minute when I teach my clinics for casting, I tell everybody I’m just as passionate today as I was 40 years ago when I first got bitten by the Steelhead bug. So here we are. Thanks for having us. Yeah, I’m Jonathan Farmer, designer and self-employed via the like them custom flies blood enthusiast and I tied a lot of learned a lot from the men that we’re here carrying. 00;02;35;10 – 00;03;00;10 Jonathan Farmer Well today the deck as he stated from South and then and phone calls and Marty did all of the graphic design for my book I have both of them to thank for that that I’ll be in touch with Marty. If Marty did. Unbelievable job better than I could ever hope for. So, yeah, how about I have a lot to be thankful for these two men and their contributions to the industry. 00;03;00;10 – 00;03;04;22 Dec Hogan Um, yeah, I’ve learned a lot from them that point. Have my own style. 00;03;04;22 – 00;03;32;25 Marty Howard But first of all, I want to thank Brian for having me on. The three of us on actually for an opportunity to discuss some of the things that we have in common. Marty Howard and I live in Utah. Kind of an odd thing to say is as far as still heading goes, but I do get around the still home country actually every year, highly devoted to the chase of that beautiful animal. 00;03;33;16 – 00;04;10;11 Jonathan Farmer A lot of people don’t realize this, but Dick is my brother in law. He’s married to my sister and connected to Jonathan through ocean Books. And actually, the three of us have that all in common together as far as being authors and having books and doing that part in the industry. But I’ve been, you know, actually fly fishing for many, many years and I’ve been a guide and owned a fly shop and and I build bamboo fly rods and and obviously really enjoy time flies. 00;04;10;11 – 00;04;34;21 Jonathan Farmer And that’s been a big part of my life for never. But, you know, as far as introductions go, it’s it’s it’s just a common bond between all of us. You know, the fly brings us together. And that’s what our books are about. And hopefully we’ll be able to have a fun discussion about how it all came together. 00;04;35;08 – 00;04;56;06 Brian Niska Yeah, you bet. So, you know, Jonathan, I’ve kind of been watching your stuff from afar for a while. And, you know, the thing that strikes strikes me is when I think of, you know, the flies I’ve seen, you know, associated with Jack and Marty, there’s definitely a real traditional style there and almost to the sense where to pretty to fish in some cases. 00;04;56;15 – 00;05;18;22 Brian Niska Your flies are gorgeous, too. But but you’re a real innovative fly tire, you know, especially those dry flies, those real big foamy, bushy things that that you’re tying up. And we use those very similar flights here on the skeena on the main stem, where a lot of folks are real hesitant to fish a dry fly and and having that portion of the fly that sort of rides in the in the surface or slightly below really works to our advantage. 00;05;18;22 – 00;05;23;14 Brian Niska Can we talk a little bit about how you know, how you how you came up with that idea? What inspired you? 00;05;23;29 – 00;05;54;01 Dec Hogan That was a fly that I came up with upon the quest from years ago. And, you know, I’ve gotten requests to design flies throughout the years that I may not necessarily fish, but I have had the opportunity to have other people test them before I put them out to the world. And as I’ve heard Marty say for me, I don’t know how many times throughout the many hours with on the phone, you’ll have your car keys. 00;05;54;01 – 00;06;23;25 Dec Hogan So, you know, I just kind of look at why I designed in general something that as a natural profile and and most swim correctly and track correctly as far as the wake and skate, I think that’s what you’re referring to, that flight. Yeah. It’s kind of tend to me by request with a skating fly that had a trailer hook and that fair amount of foam and still that’s what I came up with. 00;06;24;20 – 00;06;50;28 Dec Hogan It’s gone through a flight change over the years to make it a little bit easier for me to tie at volume and the initial one with an absolute nightmare. As much as I enjoyed trying Nightmares of Flies like some of these two gentlemen pattern, I don’t necessarily enjoy doing that on a daily basis all day long. So that’s kind of how that’s why I came about. 00;06;50;28 – 00;07;19;05 Dec Hogan I’d never envisioned it being this or rainbow trout in the winter in Georgia, though a good friend of mine, John McCloskey, he asked that. Yeah, for a whole bunch of them one winter and ended up skating up a whole bunch of rambles on was in Georgia. But yes, it’s in a pond by the just came about just through you know the mind’s eye like most other fly designers. 00;07;19;21 – 00;07;20;03 Marty Howard Awesome. 00;07;20;20 – 00;07;46;15 Jonathan Farmer I’ve got I’ve got to add something that when he said you know that I am always saying that I still had all your car That isn’t my quote That’s actually a John Hazel quote that I that I’ve lived with for ever since he said that to me. And it happened back in the early nineties and when I was just first starting to fish to to shoot and all worried about what fly to tie and what was going to work. 00;07;46;15 – 00;08;20;03 Jonathan Farmer And, and back then I would tie up hundreds of flies, all different styles and all different colors and, and I’d get to the river and I’d ask John, I said, What fly should I use? And he was kind of funny about it. He’d put his hand over my fly box and kind of wave it a little bit and close his eyes and point to something and, you know, it was a little discerning, you know, just like I tried all these flies and come on, give me a break here. 00;08;20;03 – 00;08;24;15 Jonathan Farmer And and that’s when he said, Marty, you still have to let your khaki. 00;08;25;09 – 00;08;26;01 Marty Howard And. 00;08;26;22 – 00;08;33;02 Jonathan Farmer You know, so I kind of twisted my whole idea on fly design from then on. And it became more. 00;08;33;02 – 00;08;33;15 Marty Howard About. 00;08;34;10 – 00;08;41;15 Jonathan Farmer Not the fly, but how the fly is presented and how the fly works when it’s in the water. 00;08;42;04 – 00;08;58;07 Brian Niska Well, I mean, I’ve been looking through your Instagram, Marty, and, you know, some of the pictures of your fly boxes. They’re absolutely gorgeous. And, you know, I think as a guide, it’s really important for me to like what my client has on the end of their line. But it’s more important for the client to love what they have on the end of their line. 00;08;58;07 – 00;09;20;03 Brian Niska And I’m with you. I don’t know if I don’t know if the fish cares as much as we do. Yesterday, I recorded an episode with one of our guides, Adrian Cuomo, and a frequent guest of ours, Eric Leininger. And you guys I think, must know Eric and Eric’s a real you know, he’s a real opinionated guy. And since he quit drinking, since he quit drinking, he’s kind of got this kind of spiritual thing. 00;09;20;03 – 00;09;35;28 Brian Niska And he’s he called me out of the blue one day and maybe called you as well, but he called me out of the blue one day and said, Brian, I think I’m a charlatan. I don’t think anything matters. Still had I don’t think the fly matters at all. So we had a bit of a chat yesterday about does the fly matter? 00;09;35;28 – 00;09;50;06 Brian Niska And I don’t know. I mean, it’s there’s certain colors that eye certain combos in particular I really believe in. But but yeah, once again you know it’s got to be a pretty look and fly otherwise I’m not interested deck you tie some beautiful stuff you fish some beautiful stuff what’s your thoughts. 00;09;51;02 – 00;10;01;01 Dec Hogan First on back to the car key thing and so intriguing And then I took it a step further and said you could not those khakis right to the end of your fly line. 00;10;01;01 – 00;10;01;17 Marty Howard Exactly. 00;10;02;06 – 00;10;26;10 Dec Hogan My thoughts are just in. I just did an article for that Swing the Fly anthology, and I opened it by saying, I think I’m doing the fact of the Fly is the least important, most important part of your setup. You have to have one, you know, That’s the important part about the fly to me for the fish. Nothing in the river goes like this, and just the fish is vulnerably across. 00;10;26;11 – 00;10;47;25 Dec Hogan If people ever watch the fly from above, you kind of all look the same. If they’re on a good slow swing to me, then the rest of it. Yes, of course we have to. We have to fish within parameters for our own confidence and what we like. And I bet if you line up 20 of us, veteran steelhead is where we’re going to have a common theme in that purple black peak and orange. 00;10;48;05 – 00;11;05;22 Dec Hogan You know, somewhere in there we’re going to have those colors. Maybe it goes in blue. And as these two gentlemen and I’m sure you do, I don’t know about your fly tie and Brian, but I’m sure you’re into it as well. A lot of it is for us. It’s it’s satisfying. It keeps us close to our sport. We get to create things and the way we want to see them. 00;11;06;05 – 00;11;25;29 Dec Hogan And then when you talk about you know, beautiful flies, there are, you know, a trailer, trash flies, beautiful in its own right, Right. A rose by any other name. It smells just as sweet. But when you get into your personal expression and what feels good to you, and that’s what’s important in the end. So. And I wanted to compliment you, Jonathan. 00;11;25;29 – 00;11;47;00 Dec Hogan I’ve been, you know, Marty gets compliments from me every day. So old news and I just did it, you know, keep them going. Both of these guys are fantastic fly tires and do it a lot more than I do these days. When I do it, I you know, it’s like riding a bike. I’m still I think, oh, I’m going to be rusty when I sit down the time and you know what? 00;11;47;00 – 00;12;14;22 Dec Hogan I’m not I’ve done it enough that I can sit down and just feel comfortable. But I know Jonathan and Marty are kind of habitual compulsive tires. And I know, you know, Jonathan does it for a living, but I also know that he is a compulsive tire. But your flies are beautiful. I, you know, first seeing your stuff, I knew that all the Marabou and Choudary kind of, for lack of a better term, that the meat and potatoes stuff I always thought was great. 00;12;14;22 – 00;12;44;14 Dec Hogan But then when you sent me that gadget Miss. Wow. And now I’ve been watching you time. Marty’s full dress. Steelhead flies. Fantastic, amigo. Absolutely wonderful. Yeah. So thank you. Yeah, I have one studying in the visor right now that got parrot for body shackle. The wing nightmare. I still have a dream, but I’m afraid to. Your your Instagram handle is a nightmare. 00;12;44;14 – 00;13;23;27 Dec Hogan Custom flies. I have you too, largely to thank for the more difficult, challenging stuff that I do over the years. I don’t typically tie other people’s patterns, especially if they’re mass produced or if another custom tire has an original pattern or something like that. I don’t tend to do this. The client I reached out to both of you out of respect them and asked you several years ago on this how our relationship has started and if you minded if I did the audio book for a client and the response I got was very kind. 00;13;24;13 – 00;13;53;18 Dec Hogan And then as I become more confident sometimes that without warrant, but as I become more competent, decided to take on some more challenging stuff to keep myself sharp and not compose them. But yeah, to both of you all four point, I wholeheartedly agree that the fly that we choose out of our box is not because it’s an air quote, proven pattern, but it’s something that we instill competence then and that we want. 00;13;53;25 – 00;14;17;19 Dec Hogan I choose flies based on my mood at the time, you know, and sometimes that mood might be something that more might correct me for saying this, but more modern or whatever. But there are times that I want to fish or classic fly on on a traditional cloth. And that’s what I do. And I think color may have something to do with that. 00;14;17;19 – 00;14;46;16 Dec Hogan Given any particular water clarity. My home river has the bluish grayish hue to a lot of the times, but started fishing a lot more red, orange and yellow and red and purple. If I want something a little bit darker and good brightening as well. But yeah, that’s kind of my thought on all that. And I really then I’m not two to each others one but I’m really happy all the thing, the challenging me is that wide tire that’s funny I have the same thoughts sometimes. 00;14;47;00 – 00;14;55;11 Dec Hogan I have a tide in a couple of days and the person is going to be a dumpster fire and it’s not legal. 00;14;55;11 – 00;15;00;03 Jonathan Farmer You’re saying just to add to and then we can move on to something funner. But. 00;15;00;28 – 00;15;01;08 Marty Howard You know. 00;15;01;16 – 00;15;21;12 Jonathan Farmer The thing about the fly doesn’t matter. The fly doesn’t matter to me as long as I’ve tried it. And I think that’s where the confidence factor comes in. When I try to fly, I talk with purpose and and I try to add a balance to the fly that that’s going to produce the effect that I want when it’s in the river. 00;15;21;12 – 00;15;46;17 Jonathan Farmer So the fly does matter to me. And I will fish other people’s flies rarely. But you know, I have to it or I’ve found confidence in the flies that I’ve tried. And the reason that I that confidence is because they’re designed for different types of water, different types of water temperature, different things that are happening as far as water conditions and all that kind of stuff. 00;15;46;17 – 00;16;13;10 Jonathan Farmer So the fly kind of matters. You know, I’m not going to fish a big, gigantic leech on the Deschutes in August. I’m going to fish small, more summer iron if on a three or maybe even a five sized hook, you know, So that matters a little bit. But once you’re there, you know, as far as you know, you put a green buck skirt gone. 00;16;13;22 – 00;16;14;08 Marty Howard Or. 00;16;14;24 – 00;16;21;03 Jonathan Farmer Purple Peril and you’re probably going to catch the same fish with the same swing. 00;16;21;20 – 00;16;43;03 Dec Hogan I have a question for Marty, and I have a sneaking suspicion that I already know the answer, but many out there may not. And when it comes to choosing a larger applied, for instance, was what might be those water temperatures are what’s kind of your guide in regard to water temperature versus size and and these and. 00;16;43;21 – 00;17;12;07 Jonathan Farmer Well I still believe in two fish, a winter fish and a summer fish. And, you know, I fish different flies for both fish. If I’m fish in the Skagit in the middle of April, it’s going to be a different fly than when I’d be fishing for a summer fish on the shoot in August size wise and and so but if the summer fish because I target the summer fish more than I do the winter fish, the summer fish, it is a water temperature thing for me. 00;17;12;20 – 00;17;46;26 Jonathan Farmer The warmer the water, the smaller the fly and the closer to the surface. Efficient. As the water temps start to drop, I start to fish larger flies and even to the point where I’m fish and stuff that I would might even fish during the winter. So, you know, it’s a water temperature thing for me, even even if I’m on the ronde, if the water tanks on the rod I’ll stop fish and my fives and threes and, and put on a 1.5 and get it a little bit deeper so you know just it’s just water conditions. 00;17;46;26 – 00;17;50;09 Jonathan Farmer It’s all about water conditions. 00;17;50;09 – 00;18;17;09 Speaker 5 Stone flying nets, handcrafts, wooden landing nets, fly boxes and real seats in Little Rock, Arkansas, using premium hardwoods and barrels sourced from landowners across the United States. Every piece is built by hand, combining traditional craftsmanship with the durability anglers need on the water. What makes don’t fly different is the attention to detail. You can customize your net with your choice of wood and even add personal engraving to create something that’s truly unique. 00;18;17;18 – 00;18;38;15 Speaker 5 And these aren’t just pieces of gear. 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It’s called an October bright and man this looking at this fly reminds me of being on the Thompson in October because this is exactly the type of bug that would give me confidence in that scenario. It’s obviously unfortunate that that’s not something that’s currently going on. 00;19;23;09 – 00;19;26;19 Brian Niska But yeah, what a beautiful tie, Jonathan, and a great pattern. 00;19;27;05 – 00;19;53;03 Dec Hogan I was going to ask you about that. Might I say like on Instagram, for instance, whenever I see any of our stuff, I save it and I humbly and proudly say that I have over the years many, many, many gadget Miss Mahoney and coast oranges that people have tied, which is always flattering and wonderful. But you know what is right there is your October bright. 00;19;53;07 – 00;20;06;29 Dec Hogan There’s a ton of those. I’m always saving those. And one of these days I’ll look through and really get to kind of group them all together. That and your red wing daddy and the swing chef. There’s a ton of those. Pretty cool. 00;20;07;14 – 00;20;08;00 Marty Howard Excellent. 00;20;08;05 – 00;20;32;02 Brian Niska Well, let’s. Let’s talk fishing. I mean, flies are great. And you guys did ask me about fly tying, and I got to come clean. It’s been a solid decade since I’ve tie to fly. It used to be a big part of my life, and I can’t give you a good explanation on how I quit. I think it might have had something to do with having kids and just the peripheral kind of chaos and mess that goes with fly tying and the kids wanting to participate. 00;20;32;02 – 00;20;47;22 Brian Niska I know I’m going to go back to it, but what gives me a lot of anxiety when I think about going back to fly tying is my vision has deteriorated fierce. You guys have experienced this. Are you using any type of special eyes set up to see these things that you’re tying? 00;20;48;00 – 00;20;48;21 Dec Hogan Go Marty. 00;20;50;18 – 00;20;50;27 Marty Howard Part. 00;20;51;07 – 00;20;51;24 Dec Hogan I use. 00;20;51;24 – 00;20;53;15 Jonathan Farmer Welding welding. 00;20;53;15 – 00;20;54;09 Dec Hogan Visor that. 00;20;54;09 – 00;20;54;24 Jonathan Farmer They use. 00;20;54;24 – 00;20;56;25 Marty Howard For an arm fix or someone. 00;20;57;25 – 00;21;10;06 Jonathan Farmer Microchips full on magnification. But for me it’s more about light than it is magnification. If I have to have a really good light and then just cheaters work for me. 00;21;10;06 – 00;21;10;26 Marty Howard Okay. Yeah. 00;21;11;14 – 00;21;28;21 Dec Hogan And then I, I have stronger glasses for when I tie reading glasses words that sort these bs. I have just so I can see the damn screen right now. And then tons of light and then getting back to having done it for so long, I find that I but I feel. 00;21;30;07 – 00;21;30;13 Marty Howard I. 00;21;30;13 – 00;21;59;20 Dec Hogan Did that podcast with April Vokey where I actually tied a fly was a fly tying session and my light was horrible. And I’m talking about I said, I can’t see this thing. And it turned out okay, but Marty and I did that. But I know you want to talk about fishing, but we did that book and it made us better tires because when we were in there with the macro lens at a high, high level where you can count not only the thread, but every tiny little fracture in the thread with a little wisp of thread hanging, you could see all of that. 00;22;00;08 – 00;22;16;21 Dec Hogan And when you started seeing your flies that close, it was rather enlightening. Again, the fish don’t care and I can show you a beautiful fly that that might be you might not see under a macro lens like that with all that good light and close up and you’ll think it’s great. But then when you get it in tight, you agree, Marty? 00;22;17;04 – 00;22;31;26 Jonathan Farmer Yeah. Oh, yeah, most definitely. That’s when it all started for me. I posted my first fly on space pages 20 years ago, whenever it was maybe longer, and my wife said, You’re going to have to get better at timing. 00;22;32;06 – 00;22;32;20 Marty Howard If you’re going. 00;22;32;20 – 00;22;48;18 Dec Hogan To use that camera and this hardening after that, you know, you look at something that you think is really well done to really look at it, you know, under three magnification pilot gown, that’s really more of my thanks. That is great. But I don’t. 00;22;50;22 – 00;22;51;04 Marty Howard That. 00;22;51;10 – 00;22;52;06 Dec Hogan That’ll catch them. 00;22;53;14 – 00;22;58;01 Brian Niska What do you guys think of message boards like spare pages? Do you participate in those discussions? 00;22;58;16 – 00;23;20;07 Dec Hogan I don’t, however, I may be the most recent visitor out of the group to it in that I went and looked at one of Marty’s supplies just yesterday on there, though I’ve never participated in any discussions or posted anything, I’ve most certainly gone visited that I know Marty posted the box. Well, I’ll let them take over. Oh I just. 00;23;20;07 – 00;23;44;03 Jonathan Farmer Made I haven’t done much was five pages. What happened? And it’s kind of silly but they, they changed hands and it got hard to log in and it just found it easier to be on Facebook and Instagram. And and so I kind of migrated away from spray pages, but I still go to spray pages at least once a month or twice a month to see what’s going on, though I don’t participate. 00;23;44;20 – 00;24;13;18 Dec Hogan Same thing years ago. And Dana ran spray pages and it was there was a lot more kind of, if you will, who’s who. And my friends and people I know and talk a lot on, I would look about and see things, but it seemed like whenever I made a comment, it seemed like it would end the thread. So I stopped mean to do that and I’m super polite and neutral, but I would get on there with something intrigued me enough to comment. 00;24;13;18 – 00;24;18;04 Dec Hogan It just kind of thread stopper. So whatever that means. 00;24;18;04 – 00;24;40;00 Brian Niska This thread stopper would be a great name for someone on their thread stopper. I’ll tell you, the reason I ask is, you know, the last time you were on the show, we had a I think, a great discussion about fishing literature, fly fishing literature that it influenced you. And you had Scott told a wonderful story about reading each other, Hake Brown on the side of the River. 00;24;40;16 – 00;25;03;29 Brian Niska And I’ve reiterated this story to people a few times because to me it was one of two or three great moments in that show. One of the other, by the way, is you talking about meeting Bill McMillan. But, you know, books stood the test of time. Now they’ve changed a bit, right? You talking about the quality of the photos and everything and but the reality of the situation is what you guys started out. 00;25;04;06 – 00;25;21;11 Brian Niska If you wanted to learn more about fly tying, you really had to put a lot of work and you really needed to find your community. You really needed to try and find a mentor. And now it’s available, widespread to everyone. And what I notice is, you know what I see the guest flies coming in and I see the flies. 00;25;21;11 – 00;25;40;22 Brian Niska My guides are tying what I see the flies that new tires are tying. The learning curve is so darned fast, though, and everybody’s you can always see little bits of influence from different tires along the way. You know, I think books are especially important because once again, they stand the test of time, you know, essentially the historians of the past time. 00;25;41;05 – 00;26;00;11 Brian Niska But, you know, how important is the Internet, do you think, these days when it comes to the culture? Right. And passing along? You know, Dick, you’re incredibly generous with your time. I know this about you. You’re not a you’re not a guy who would want to help someone out. And I think the fly time community has a lot of individuals like that. 00;26;00;11 – 00;26;28;27 Brian Niska I think fly fishing does you know, George stands out as a guy like that. You know, so many people have told me stories about how George Kirk helped them out, connected them with jobs, and, you know, answered their questions with no gain of his own. You know, my concern a little bit with when we go online and I’m not picking on spare pages in particular, there’s just a broad 10,000 foot kind of observation is sometimes the online world can be a little bit toxic in the sense that it lacks the accountability. 00;26;29;05 – 00;26;47;19 Brian Niska So there’s value and, you know, you go in there and learn learned stuff. But, you know, the funny thing to me is there you are commenting on on Facebook giving away your knowledge for free in some Joe bag donuts. He’d just picked up a fly rod three days ago, you know, has got the exact same amount of voice as you do in a scenario like that. 00;26;47;19 – 00;26;48;22 Brian Niska It’s kind of wild, right? 00;26;49;04 – 00;27;10;11 Dec Hogan Yeah. But I always talk about, you know, a young guy in Texas in the in the comfort of his I den behind that keyboard, you know, just saying whatever whatever he wants in whatever, who he can be, the man, you know, we see right through it. But I totally agree with you. And that’s just the nature of the internet and people seeing saves and not having to be accountable, as you say. 00;27;10;22 – 00;27;19;12 Dec Hogan And for me, back to this baby bedroom, I am always nice and careful about what I say, but I’ll just say it. I go on the pages occasionally for a good pucker. 00;27;23;16 – 00;27;27;13 Marty Howard And the Yeah. 00;27;27;17 – 00;28;09;22 Dec Hogan And like Marty, I want to see what’s going on. And because I am a teacher and instructor, I do like to see what people are talking about. But it’s amazing how many guys just have this opinion based on what I do spend a lot of time on Instagram, Facebook, not so much, although I’ll post there, but a lot of time on Instagram because it’s how I, I largely broaden my business and I can I’ll wholeheartedly agree with Jack on the Internet and social media has created a toxic environment that not only do you have, you know, third day experts, but one of the things that really kind of irks me is if this has happened 00;28;09;22 – 00;28;16;21 Dec Hogan to me, I can’t tell you how many times as opposed to fly. And then someone will just comment, What’s the recipe? 00;28;16;29 – 00;28;18;23 Marty Howard Oh, yeah, flying. 00;28;18;23 – 00;28;43;02 Dec Hogan Do you understand how long it takes to sit down and write out every single one of the things and steps that are not fly? Marty has done that so kindly on on Sunday pages. I read last night one of his posts on the beautiful married wing y Blue Guide, and you know, that’s one thing that does kind of work me is when someone like, what’s the recipe? 00;28;43;23 – 00;29;03;27 Dec Hogan If you’re going to ask, at least be polite about it. That’s just kind of how I brought up. I grew up in the South, though. Know if you want something, be nice when you ask. But yeah, you know, I think I’ve learned a lot from guys like these two men and George and a whole lot of other people in the industry that we shouldn’t gatekeeping. 00;29;04;12 – 00;29;27;19 Dec Hogan You know, we shouldn’t there shouldn’t be secret. I mean, you might have your own mold technique that you share with people that are close to you. But gatekeeping and and try and keeping a secret doesn’t help anybody and it doesn’t help our sport at all. You know, one thing that I’m a big advocate for is handling the amazing push that that we all have in common, what with great care. 00;29;27;19 – 00;29;58;25 Dec Hogan Love Pablo. But one thing that I advocate most or that’s that my put my mark on you know over the years. But yeah definitely agree that those created up there my topic Obama though we can all be changed in that yeah and there’s a lot of good as well right I mean Oh wholeheartedly great you’re talking about the sharing and and Brian you talk about so many people have access to you know that learning curve information and same is casting. 00;29;59;06 – 00;30;20;21 Dec Hogan There was a time when there was not a ton of great fly tires that we knew of and there was not a ton of great. Casper’s Well, there’s both now. There’s a lot of really fantastic fly tires, and maybe they’ve been around. We get to see them now and they are sharing. But I remember Trey comes book steelhead fly fishing and flies the paperback one that had the wonderful back chapter on all the fly patterns. 00;30;21;02 – 00;30;34;05 Dec Hogan And it has It was the first time I’d seen that it said glass of flies that have influenced all of us. And I remember as a very young man talk about not having tutorials. I would look at those pictures of little tiny pictures on that plate. 00;30;34;16 – 00;30;35;04 Marty Howard And. 00;30;35;04 – 00;30;46;27 Dec Hogan Trying to tie an orange heron, and there’s a bunch of them, but it’s all ducks Bay and the killer, you know, all those try and just from a photograph and I still have some of them and they’re horrendous. They’re horrible, but I love them. 00;30;47;20 – 00;30;56;01 Jonathan Farmer You know, as far as the Internet goes, the Internet is one of the most dangerous things on the planet, because if you if you get into the Internet and you take it personally. 00;30;56;20 – 00;30;57;28 Dec Hogan You’re going to hate life. 00;30;58;06 – 00;31;23;28 Jonathan Farmer Because you know, people are going to disagree with you. People are going to say things that you know aren’t true. People are going to do things that can definitely interrupt any positive conversation at all. There’s haters out there, just people that just it doesn’t matter what you do. You could post one of the most beautiful flies on the planet or one of the most perfect casts, and someone’s going to say something derogatory because they have to. 00;31;23;28 – 00;31;46;22 Jonathan Farmer It’s just in the makeup of that individual. And the thing that if if the Internet, when it came out, when I was in my twenties, I don’t think I would be fly fishing because everybody would hate me, because, you know, what I say is right? And if you say something contrary, then then you’re wrong. And, you know, I think ego has a big thing to do with it. 00;31;46;22 – 00;32;10;07 Jonathan Farmer And I think the older you get, the softer your ego becomes and you start to realize that, you know, you’re going to you’re going to reach people that want the information that you want and that you’re giving, and that’s all that matters. And you just disregard the haters. And I don’t spend I don’t even know how to run Instagram and I can barely operate Facebook. 00;32;10;26 – 00;32;33;19 Jonathan Farmer And that’s where I go and post fliers and do things. But, you know, if you want to try to conquer the world and make everything right, you’re not going to you’re not going to do it on the Internet. But, you know, and I think that’s one thing when it comes to writing books, when you when you write a book, no one can really question your book and your book. 00;32;34;06 – 00;32;58;07 Jonathan Farmer And DEC always, always said that as we got into this publishing thing that, you know, the person that enjoys holding something and flipping pages is the person that we really want to target as far as what we’re creating and what we’re doing. So yeah, the Internet’s a great thing if you use it right, but you’ve got to be very careful. 00;32;58;07 – 00;32;59;14 Jonathan Farmer And I’m still a. 00;32;59;14 – 00;33;00;12 Dec Hogan Big book fan. 00;33;01;08 – 00;33;23;15 Brian Niska I tell you, one of the things I’ve tried to do at the Lodge and I’m trying to do it, you know, organically over time, is is just build up a nice library because, you know, you still had fish. You deal with, you know, days when the river’s not right and you don’t get out there. And to be able to pull up a book and sit on the couch next to the fire and it definitely scratches the itch on a day that you can’t actually get out there and make some cash. 00;33;23;15 – 00;33;28;01 Brian Niska So and it’s fun to it’s fun to see what books people reach for now. 00;33;28;12 – 00;33;32;17 Dec Hogan Can’t wait to see them and be up there. We bought our plane tickets yesterday. 00;33;32;17 – 00;33;48;20 Brian Niska Oh, hey, we’re really excited to have you and Amy up here, so that’s going to be great. You know, I dec I was I was talking to a buddy of mine who is going to be up there around the same time or up with us, Scott Baker. McGarvey He’s been on the show before. I know. And a friend of mine. 00;33;48;22 – 00;33;56;10 Brian Niska Yeah. Yeah. And he was, he was really excited that there might be a chance that you guys would be here at the same time if even for a night or two. So. Nice. 00;33;56;10 – 00;34;01;13 Dec Hogan Oh that’s, that’s great. That’s great to hear. Yeah. Yeah. I look forward to seeing him in a long time. 00;34;01;13 – 00;34;21;18 Brian Niska So I want to go back to something Jonathan said. I think it’s really important and it was talking about fish handling and, you know, I’ve got to tie these two things together. Hopefully. So, you know, we talk about kind of online bullying or what have you. And I think of an incident I can’t remember if it was four years ago, five years ago, there was a young fella that posted a picture of a fish. 00;34;22;04 – 00;34;37;12 Brian Niska It wasn’t as close to the water as it should have been. Obviously, the handling wasn’t great, and I think he said it was a 15 pounder and it might have been ten. Right. So what do you think happened? A bunch of people jumped all over him. And here’s this this young guy who just started and he’s so proud. 00;34;37;12 – 00;35;03;00 Brian Niska It’s his first fish. And all these guys are just, you know, make him feel bad. And what a great teachable moment that was missed in that. Because when we talk about fish handling, I know in Washington you guys have an innovative regulation where you’re not allowed to take fish out of the water. Seems like a great idea. We’ve talked about it a bunch up here in B.C. and over time, I think I’ve shifted to this this headspace where I think that education is more important than regulation. 00;35;03;14 – 00;35;24;21 Brian Niska And I think that really quite organically over the last decade, we’ve seen improvements in fish handling because that’s the culture, that’s just what people are doing. The grip and grins are still there, but now the fish is half in the water, half out. So I think that, you know, folks like like you guys who are of influence to people, you know, you guys have really moved the needle on on fish handling. 00;35;24;27 – 00;35;46;04 Brian Niska And something that I personally have tried my best to persuade people is this this idea that not to be greedy and if you catch four fish, which one was the prettiest, Right. And what’s a good day? A good day is fishing. Fishing good water. Well, and the anticipation that something might happen. And these fish are too valuable to to want to, you know, catch a ton of them. 00;35;46;04 – 00;36;09;08 Brian Niska And, you know, when I think about the future of fisheries management, one of the concerns I have and I’m not trying to be an elitist fly guy, but I think it’s a very simple mathematical thing is if a guy fishes for days and lands one fish, that’s a lot of value there. If a guy goes out and catches 14 in a morning on a bed set up or whatever, you know, that’s that’s not quite the same. 00;36;09;08 – 00;36;25;08 Brian Niska And, you know, how do we how do we ensure that we can maintain access and opportunity and we don’t just end up in a situation where the managers, regardless of whether we’re talking in the states or here in Canada, just go, Oh, this is complicated. We don’t know exactly what to do. We’re just going to close the fishery, take away the anglers. 00;36;25;20 – 00;36;49;03 Brian Niska And I think the future of fisheries management, what we to strive for is a scenario where we understand the impacts associated with techniques in the way that anglers fish and you know, whether these are closed areas or closed over time or, you know, leading up to this final point of, you know, catch release limits, they do them some places it sounds like a good idea, but it’s going to be really hard to enforce. 00;36;49;15 – 00;37;01;10 Brian Niska So to me, this idea of a catch release limit really falls into this educational piece, trying to convince people culturally that, you know, it’s okay to catch less fish. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? 00;37;01;19 – 00;37;29;27 Dec Hogan I know I certainly do. In regard to the, you know, handling topic, I know that at times I have most certainly been guilty of probably not being the nicest person in the chat, but something that I’ve tried to work on is bars, education systems learned and after reading eat fish, Eat Fish web. That’s our Instagram handle. You know, I’ve learned a lot in regard to catch and release data. 00;37;29;27 – 00;37;53;18 Dec Hogan And so it’s important Ally I think about you know, my card always is if you’re going to let the fish out of water, imagine, you know, a quarter miles per hour with a gorilla chase that you understand as you cross the finish line. Somebody at rest gulp your head underwater as long as they can hold their breath. You know, because that thing is fighting for its life, not knowing that you were gonna release that and generally let the cat out of the water. 00;37;53;26 – 00;38;24;09 Dec Hogan My home fishery can all live steelhead out of the water, period, though their guide do. But yeah, as far as you know the the catch and release thing I think you know I’m I’m fortunate enough to have a home fishery where you can hook three or four big steelhead in the day if you’re facing a bear you could go out and catch 20 and I think what that boils down to is kind of a personal responsibility and mindset of I don’t need to catch every fish on the river. 00;38;24;29 – 00;38;51;28 Dec Hogan Three is plenty. The five can’t breathe. And I’ve had an amazing banner day and and I think when you’re watching a bobber and this isn’t an elitist point of view, I just think that you’re watching the bobber in the catch. It grasshopper fishing this kind of take away from the special feeling of the ocean if why or for me again on the leaders point of view just the personal ideology on I know people that’ll swing around and then they’ll go back through it. 00;38;51;28 – 00;39;26;20 Dec Hogan What would be that? Just a question. Why is catching a fish that important to you? You have to rely on my fallback or to me, not that I think it’s just a ship then in mindset for our fishery and how we fish them and what makes it special. But again, fish, how do you want to fish? And it’s not for me, Judge, It’s just a matter of do we really care about the health of our, our fisheries, wonky education and educate and new you we do big fish. 00;39;26;22 – 00;39;32;17 Dec Hogan You know, there’s there’s 150 different ways to catch a steelhead for say oh did that keep them wet thing. I always laugh. 00;39;33;06 – 00;39;33;13 Marty Howard Yeah. 00;39;33;26 – 00;39;40;04 Dec Hogan Can I keep them guessing. I think red fish brown chatter exempt from that because you let your banner out. 00;39;40;04 – 00;39;43;27 Marty Howard Everyone holds them way up all over. But gosh. 00;39;43;27 – 00;40;13;18 Dec Hogan It’s got to be in the water. I think education as regards to catch and release limits, that is obviously, you know, how do you how do you enforce that? That’s that has to be an education thing. And and I certainly have had some extreme banner days steelhead and just because I’ve done it for so much for so long and I’m sure all of you have the same, there comes a time where you’re like, okay, I’ve had a great week this morning, so I’m I’m done for the day. 00;40;14;13 – 00;40;32;08 Dec Hogan How many do you need? You know, the guy that catches, you know, 14 fish and that I got to give John Hazel credit for that. Even though I use that all the time. You would love that. Beat fish and daiquiri on 22 fish this morning. I’m like, yeah, tell me about number eight. But you that caught four in one week. 00;40;32;08 – 00;40;40;11 Dec Hogan You can tell me about every single one right? I can tell you about the four that I hooked on the by being three years ago every single detail of them. 00;40;40;12 – 00;40;43;06 Jonathan Farmer So go. I want fish where you guys are fishing. 00;40;43;29 – 00;40;48;09 Marty Howard Yeah. You know, I want to know if I had. 00;40;48;09 – 00;41;16;11 Jonathan Farmer 50 plus days fishing for an out of fish this year and I can count the number of hook ups on one hand. Hit bad water everywhere we go, everywhere I went. But that, you know that’s here on or there have had really good days as well. And you know, as far as handling fish go, I think the thing that that that happens with with the the handling of fish and actually the catching of fish is is where you’re at in your progression. 00;41;16;25 – 00;41;42;22 Jonathan Farmer If you’re brand new and you’re just starting to learn how to fish with a two handed rod and, you know, the whole the whole quest is just to get a hook up. You don’t care how many fish you catch and you just you just want to get a hook up. And then then as you progress and you start to learn and you understand the presentation and you’re fishing in the right water, you start to pick up a few more fish here and there, and then it becomes you want to catch as many as you can. 00;41;43;06 – 00;42;02;28 Jonathan Farmer And I don’t think you can take a beginner out of that mode. And it’d be really difficult because of the effort that they’re putting into the whole process. And then after you’ve gone through that, you know, things mellow out and you can step back and you can look at like, okay, what, what do I want out of this experience? 00;42;02;28 – 00;42;26;17 Jonathan Farmer So, you know, as far as talking about education, you know, we can teach people how to handle fish. So that fish has a better opportunity to survive after being caught, that’s not a big deal at all. And, you know, the hero shot now, at my point in my progression, the hero shot now is I look at him and just kind of giggle and say, you know, yeah, I was there once. 00;42;26;17 – 00;42;43;12 Jonathan Farmer I had a I had to have my pictures of my fish and I’ve got one of the best hero shots of my life two years ago on this gadget. Luckily, Dirk was there with his camera and someone. You know that that’s my whole thing. No one ever has a camera when I catch a fish, so I don’t get to take pictures anyway. 00;42;43;12 – 00;43;11;06 Jonathan Farmer But. But the whole progression thing is as is the thing. And I think it’d be hard to teach that to someone that’s just brand new, you know, just sit there and put limits on someone that can’t even cast yet. It’s something that that needs to be considered. But as as far as law goes or enforcement of rules, you know, I think maybe it has to be out there that there is a catch and release limit. 00;43;11;24 – 00;43;37;11 Jonathan Farmer And, you know, it’s self-imposed. And, you know, you’re you’re the one that is going to have to be honest about it. But, you know, it’s just a matter of where you’re at and how many fish you’ve got. And and like I got skunked, 16 days just on my last trip, went 16 days without a fish to hand. And and it doesn’t matter. 00;43;37;21 – 00;44;03;20 Jonathan Farmer It doesn’t, you know, it’s like I’m not going to sell all my gear on eBay because I had a bad trip. I’m going to continue to chase these fish. And every one that I catch is going to be a prize and something that I enjoy. But, you know, I think it’s depending on where you go, like, you know, I get to go to B.C next year, we’re planning a trip already and when I get up in B.C., it’s a different attitude because it’s a little different. 00;44;04;19 – 00;44;24;27 Jonathan Farmer It’s a totally different game up there because the opportunities are a little bit greater than they are down in the lower 48, where I’m chasing my summer. Still had you know, there may not not be. I think when I went on this last trip, there was only ten or 15,000 fish over the last dam and you know, you’re just expecting to hook one. 00;44;24;27 – 00;44;52;28 Jonathan Farmer So yeah, it’s as if the fish handling part of it is the most important thing to me is, is educating people on how to take care of these fish. You know, all of it, the whole, the whole process, every, every aspect that gives them the advantage of surviving the the catch. And then after that the number thing. Yeah, that’s going to be a hard thing to teach, just depending on where you are, you progression. 00;44;53;16 – 00;45;21;29 Dec Hogan You know, tomatoes point of going 16 days or eight days or ten days or, you know, two months without cluttering up. There’s, you know, I think I think that’s where the Internet as a whole, especially Instagram, can be very discouraging. The new anglers when they’re watching fish pictures from from other people. And is this comical? You know, these guys might be out every day. 00;45;21;29 – 00;45;44;21 Dec Hogan They might. They made look in a place that gives them ample opportunity to fish or they they are the typical that give them ample opportunity to fish so they get more opportunities as a whole. And when you see someone posting a lot of pictures of steelhead or whatever it is that you’re targeting and then you don’t catch them, it can be very discouraging. 00;45;44;21 – 00;46;15;20 Dec Hogan So I would encourage newer anglers, novice anglers or even, you know, those that are in that progression valve not take that to heart and just focus on your own journey is an angle because I know I’ve had plenty of zero fish days on my home or there’s that that does do the ample opportunity without bumping the either not in the right place at the right time or with that maybe scattered through the park or whatever it is. 00;46;16;02 – 00;46;24;11 Dec Hogan Yeah. Just don’t take the internet to heart when it comes to other people posting photos and just focus on your own journey. Is the 100. 00;46;24;23 – 00;46;50;16 Brian Niska One thought on this When we talk about reducing our impact, catching less fish is the natural result of that is people are going to find harder ways to catch fish and people are going to fish in a way that brings them greater enjoyment. You know, technology is a big part of all of our lives. You know, whether you’re a hockey player with a carbon fiber stick instead of a wood stick anymore or, you know, this gadget we talked about this yesterday on the show, it’s gadget line. 00;46;50;16 – 00;47;12;08 Brian Niska The sales market for that should be tagline a means to an end. Right? We’ve made it. We’ve made it really easy to get the fly to the fish. You know, we’ve got all sorts of advancements in technology. The lighter, quicker, faster, more sensitive, blah, blah, blah. Yet so many people enjoy fishing with bamboo and so many people enjoy old reels. 00;47;12;20 – 00;47;34;29 Brian Niska And when it comes to the tradition of fly fishing to be tapped into that, that’s not a numbers thing that’s catching these fish the way you want to do it. And when you move to that mindset of I don’t care if I get three, all of a sudden, I think you find yourself starting later fishing shorter days, fishing flies that maybe don’t look like lures in the water and and just fishing in a way that brings you joy. 00;47;34;29 – 00;47;42;15 Brian Niska And I think that that’s just something that’s going to happen organically. And, you know, we see it with our clientele, by the way. I see it with my guides. I see it all across. 00;47;42;28 – 00;48;07;08 Dec Hogan I think once we we we make the choice because this goes back when we were wee babes, we lads, you choose to swing flies exclusively. You’re already in that mindset. It Jonathan Even the people on the internet, the guys that I’m sure that those kids watching, looking at that stuff, they dream about it, but they know they’ve already chosen the hardest way to catch Steelhead. 00;48;07;20 – 00;48;27;05 Dec Hogan And getting back to that, the reality again, what Jonathan was saying, it looks like these guys catch fish every day. Even back in my glory days, I used to always joke about, you know, before we had the Internet, we had photo albums, right? And that people would look at my photo and, wow, you catch a lot of steelhead. 00;48;27;11 – 00;48;38;27 Dec Hogan I always talked about making a photo album that had a picture or just two pages blank, one page with two fish on it, another blank page. 00;48;39;13 – 00;48;41;16 Marty Howard You know, and. 00;48;41;22 – 00;49;08;03 Dec Hogan You go through this 50 page photo album and there’s really only 12 fish in there now that that is reality. Now, also about the Internet and fish handling. I think that again, we we that swing flies. We in general, I believe, inherently instinctively handle the fish fairly well. I agree with Marty and that learning curve and all that. 00;49;08;16 – 00;49;33;08 Dec Hogan But I do think that the importance of that photograph is where we fly fishing swing guys and gals. I can kind of run into trouble. And that’s, I think a case of the Internet is kind of rugged on those fish, even as we’re getting more educated because people want that picture for the Internet. They have to have it and watch them. 00;49;33;22 – 00;49;36;08 Dec Hogan And that’s where we run into trouble. So. 00;49;36;19 – 00;49;42;16 Brian Niska Yeah, I mean, there’s there’s that famous incident with that big kiss box fish and a well-known. 00;49;42;16 – 00;49;43;04 Marty Howard American. 00;49;44;05 – 00;50;08;11 Brian Niska Fishing brand. Yeah. And you know, that poor guy who I think was a fairly new angler the time he was when it came to light, that there was a whole bunch of other photos showing what really transpired. I think that’s a good watershed moment, if there is one. But, you know, like you said, you’ve taken lots of fish photos and it’s for us to say, hey, you know, that guy who just caught his first steelhead should just put it back in the water right away without a photo because it’s better for the fish. 00;50;08;11 – 00;50;14;15 Brian Niska That’s a tough one, because those photos, you know, it’s kind of like proof, I guess. So they could go and say, hey, look what I did. 00;50;14;25 – 00;50;35;29 Dec Hogan You know, Scott O’Donnell said it when we first together and during our early days, he said that Dory, grab, that’s your trophy. I’ll never forget that. That’s your trophy. I got to have it. And there’s a way to do it. And if I see a young guy or I’m guiding them, which I still do some guiding and they get their first steelhead, I will throw them in a headlock and take charge and make sure they get that photo. 00;50;35;29 – 00;50;51;09 Dec Hogan But I’m going to do it very carefully and I’m going to cut that fly off and stick it in their hat and say, Don’t fish that fly again, because 40 years later, I wish I had the first fly. You know, I got my first steelhead on. So, yeah, it’s super important. It’s your trophy. That’s what I tell my client. 00;50;51;20 – 00;51;17;28 Jonathan Farmer I’m not moving in my picture. It’s driving me insane. No, I saying, you know, the whole thing about the content on the Internet is, you know, is damaging to every aspect of life, not just catching a fish. And that’s one thing that you do need to definitely be careful of. And, you know, the Internet bully thing, there’s ways to be able to communicate to people that are abusing the resource. 00;51;17;28 – 00;51;23;23 Jonathan Farmer You know, you have to be extremely careful. But there’s ways to encourage people to do a little bit better job. 00;51;23;23 – 00;51;26;04 Marty Howard And I think. 00;51;26;04 – 00;51;52;28 Jonathan Farmer It’s self-healing right now. The hero shots, we had so much flak from so many different people. I don’t even have to say anything anymore. And, you know, so I think it’s it’s being observed by more than just us old people. The people are starting to understand how important the resources and I’m not just talking about still hurting. I’m talking about any outdoor resource because of the amount of crowd. 00;51;52;28 – 00;52;18;26 Jonathan Farmer I think college had one of the worst impacts on the outdoors than anything that’s ever happened in history. The parking lots where I fish overnight started to fill up where I used to have a stretch of water to myself or maybe to other people. Now there’s 20 to 30 cars in that lot. And and it’s changed the whole dynamic of the outdoor experience. 00;52;18;26 – 00;52;49;05 Jonathan Farmer So I think but I honestly believe people are starting to recognize that and starting to see the value in and ensuring that what they’re doing isn’t interrupting or causing any harm to the resource. But I think that’s one of those going back to the education thing, we need to educate every brand new person that wants to go outside about how critical it is that they take care of what they’re stepping into. 00;52;49;05 – 00;53;09;00 Jonathan Farmer You know, the litter that the litter that you find on the river as it stays and the total carp launch is as far as etiquette. It’s got, you know, etiquette as far as flushing those is one of the saddest things that I’ve ever seen. And, you know, so, yeah, we do have a responsibility as as the going out crowd. 00;53;09;00 – 00;53;34;11 Jonathan Farmer You know, I don’t have very many days left on this earth and know I want to try to do the best I can to ensure that the resource is usable and enjoyable and conservation. And, you know, that’s the whole key as far as getting involved in your local fly fishing club and and learning what it takes to really solve. 00;53;34;18 – 00;53;34;26 Marty Howard From. 00;53;34;26 – 00;53;36;20 Jonathan Farmer Our guard, our resource. 00;53;36;22 – 00;54;03;01 Speaker 5 We experience the waters of Bristol Bay at Togiak River Lodge, where fly fishing meets Alaska’s rugged beauty. 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When a customer brings stories of finally connecting with that fish, they search for forever. With a growing online store and a budding YouTube channel, you’ll be able to follow along with their fun Antiques International adventures and helpful fly fishing tips. Goldfish shop where the community is hanging out even if they’re supposed to be working. 00;54;49;20 – 00;54;55;13 Speaker 5 That’s Golden Fly Shop dotcom. Check them out right now. 00;54;55;13 – 00;55;13;04 Brian Niska Marty. I think that’s really wise. And I want to say that there’s a funny thing as people get older, I think we all have a natural tendency to tell everybody things used to be better. You know, the good old days. And what we need to always keep in mind is that for some people these are the good old days. 00;55;13;16 – 00;55;31;16 Brian Niska And you know, well, Dec might think fondly to the best fishing he ever had a long time ago. Maybe his best fishing is going to be tomorrow. And if you can keep that mindset as a I think as a middle aged angler and older angler, I think that’s really important because the natural tendency and I see it all over the place is for people to say, Hey, you missed out things. 00;55;31;16 – 00;55;59;03 Brian Niska You used to be better and I want to go into this for one quick second. I had a conversation with a really well-known guide, someone who I respect quite a bit a week or two ago, and they were having a little bit of self regret on some of the promotion that they’d done because they felt, hey, you know, I’ve contributed to making the river busier through various film projects, and I know that that person had received a little bit of criticism from other folks saying, Hey, you know, what are you doing? 00;55;59;04 – 00;56;26;13 Brian Niska You know, you’re promoting such and such. And I said to them, look, I’ve seen your stuff. You’re promoting, you know, etiquette. You’re promoting fishing for the right reasons. People are going to fish regardless. And what you’re doing is you’re inspiring them to participate in, interact in the outdoors in a real in a real sustainable way. So I think you need to just stay the course and not let, as you say, the haters, you know, get you down because it’s a natural tendency. 00;56;26;13 – 00;56;33;04 Brian Niska So for you guys putting out books Deck, did you receive any pushback from people say, Oh, why are you talking about this river or that river? 00;56;33;12 – 00;56;57;16 Dec Hogan Yeah, So I would listen to you just now and agree with everything that I was thinking. And when our passion for Steelhead, when that came out, 2006, there was certainly some talk, you know, behind my back and that, well, you know, we DEC’s doing this, you know, we’ve got to fill the rivers with people and there wasn’t a ton of that, but I know that, that it happened and that’s always going to happen. 00;56;57;26 – 00;57;17;05 Dec Hogan And then I found solace in myself and that I did exactly what you were talking about in that I’m teaching being a steward of the river and the fish and everything that that entails and educating proper handling all of it. And and it’s really a good thing and. 00;57;17;22 – 00;57;18;03 Marty Howard Not to. 00;57;18;03 – 00;57;39;24 Dec Hogan Name names. And I’m not going to. But I remember years ago, a very prominent angler was so angry about anything that was published, and he was angry at every guide and promoting the river and told him one day at a very young age, I said, You know, if you had it your way, there would be no steelhead because a river wouldn’t have any friends. 00;57;39;24 – 00;57;43;03 Dec Hogan And the river needs friends. That makes sense. 00;57;43;16 – 00;57;43;26 Marty Howard Oh, yeah. 00;57;44;06 – 00;58;08;19 Dec Hogan Yeah. If he meet me, I mean, this gentleman said didn’t want anybody on the river want to all do themselves. We’re not going to work. So I learned some years ago one of my best friends and fishing companion the same ruse. The talk about him a lot in my book is the all them cigar smoking man For anybody who’s actually taken the time to read it. 00;58;08;19 – 00;58;32;28 Dec Hogan And he said to me years ago, there are no secrets on the road. And within here in Alaska, we have an abundance of rivers that are only accessible by plane. But if it’s on the road system, there aren’t any speaker. And so for anybody who get upset about people talking about rivers or places, you know, I get your spot. 00;58;33;02 – 00;59;13;21 Dec Hogan I do. I found a few spot that never seen anybody else fish and then people start to recognize there’s a fishing there, especially if you’re, you know, recognizable, you know, person. And they had this three or four months to catch a fish there. The next thing you know that’s not your they want I get the the specific locations of photos argument however when it comes to a generic mention of a particular river or them for anybody who who gets their feathers ruffled over that or intended there are no secrets on the road system if you can drive to it, people know about it. 00;59;13;27 – 00;59;34;03 Dec Hogan And, you know, that’s that’s just kind of a I wouldn’t say defensive of anybody to talk about where this but it’s certainly a point in in that you know they’re not hard to get to a lot of them. I’ve talked about the Christie law a whole bunch of times. Does that influence the amount of people that go fish? 00;59;34;03 – 00;59;45;28 Dec Hogan It likely not, because it’s a it’s a pain in the long road just to get moving water. It’s an ordeal. It’s a federal project. Every time I go down, they’re not easy to read. Once you’re there to. 00;59;46;19 – 00;59;50;06 Marty Howard Go a little bit. Yeah. 00;59;50;16 – 01;00;19;17 Jonathan Farmer You definitely have to learn as part of it that, you know, there is a difference between hard spotting and promoting your fishery. One of my favorite books is Duck River Journal for the scattered and sort. I through it every year and look at the pictures and find inspiration in that book all the time. And I can remember when it first came out that, you know, I’d say duck took a little bit more heat over that than he did. 01;00;19;21 – 01;00;43;14 Jonathan Farmer Passion, as far as you know. Laurie, what are you doing? You know, you’re doing a river journal on this gadget. Are you kidding me? You know that was kind of the attitude. But, man, I tell you, if I didn’t have that book in my library, there’d be something missing. And, you know, so there’s ways to to promote fishing and fisheries, and then there’s ways not to promote in the hot spot. 01;00;43;14 – 01;01;07;04 Jonathan Farmer And that’s one thing that the Internet has done. And I tell you and I’ve I’ve seen more policing over hot spotting in a recent year when I have since the invention of the Internet, you hot spot now you are going to get called out and you are going to get trounced on and you’re going to learn a really hard lesson that something that you just don’t do. 01;01;07;18 – 01;01;36;24 Jonathan Farmer You don’t tell someone where you’re standing. You don’t. It’s just part of that because it can destroy when you focus, put the focus on it, on spots that can definitely interrupt and destroy the fishery in the fishing. But, you know, as far as promotion goes, if you do it in the right heart and just make sure that you’re you’re not being detrimental to the resource that those things can last forever. 01;01;36;24 – 01;01;54;00 Jonathan Farmer And just like that, that book that that river Journal I’ve got, I’ve got actually quite a few of those review journals and they’re all just glorious to go back and and see what it was like and enjoy new inspiration. I was over. 01;01;54;19 – 01;01;59;15 Marty Howard Nice and Aaron knew that. Marty That’s cool. 01;01;59;15 – 01;02;18;08 Dec Hogan Yeah but that that speaking of that River Journal, I know I was super young when I wrote that and I was asked to do it and I wasn’t going to turn down the opportunity. I was very careful that in that there was no hard spotting and I was very realistic. Even back then when we went to this gadget and we usually caught a fish or two in a day. 01;02;18;18 – 01;02;24;16 Dec Hogan But I was very realistic about it. Well, those are the days I talked about that photo album, 50 pages and only 12 fish in it. 01;02;24;16 – 01;02;32;08 Brian Niska So and you know how many years since then have people not had access and opportunity to fish this gadget, right? 01;02;32;17 – 01;02;39;27 Dec Hogan Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So now it’s a great resource to go vicariously and see what I think. That’s what you’re getting at. Yeah. 01;02;40;08 – 01;02;50;03 Brian Niska Yeah. Well, it falls into that whole thing of a river without friends right now. And so without a book like that, if someone doesn’t have the actual experience of fishing the river, they don’t know what they don’t know. 01;02;50;03 – 01;02;52;14 Dec Hogan Right, Exactly. Yeah, precisely. 01;02;52;25 – 01;03;10;27 Brian Niska That, by the way, is a hoot. And by the way, and I got to tell you, I’m I’m looking forward to next week. I’ve I’ve got Bob Hutton coming on for another episode. Oh, yeah. And he’s going to be joined by a guy you guys may know named Mark McAnally who’s an old time fishing guide here and ABC head guide on about being at the Silver Hilton for many, many years. 01;03;11;08 – 01;03;12;15 Dec Hogan Oh, wow, that would be a good one. 01;03;12;29 – 01;03;14;03 Marty Howard I’ll tune into that. 01;03;14;12 – 01;03;31;16 Brian Niska I’ll tell you, I’m working on another one. I don’t mind teasing this out there because I don’t know if it’s going to happen or not. And it’s a little bit controversial. And I’m new to this podcasting thing, right? And I enjoy it. I hope I get better at it over time, but I enjoy it. And so, you know, you guys probably know who Tucker Carlson is. 01;03;31;17 – 01;03;47;05 Brian Niska Now, recently, there’s been a little bit of info come out that shows that he speaks once in a while or does a little bit of it. So but I’ve reached out to his assistant and some other people I’m trying to circling the wagons because because I’m thinking, you know, that would be an interesting conversation, not a conversation like this, perhaps. 01;03;47;05 – 01;04;02;00 Brian Niska But, you know, I don’t really care too much about getting into politics. I just want to know why the guy likes to fish and man, would I share this information with people in my own circle. You know, some people are like, why are you doing that? And other people are like, Oh, that sounds great. And I’m just like. 01;04;02;21 – 01;04;03;09 Marty Howard I don’t give a damn. 01;04;03;14 – 01;04;23;26 Brian Niska About what the guy’s politics are one way or the other. It’s a guy that fishes. It’s probably an interesting conversation. That’s what I want to do. So, you know, when you think about fishing, right, Like, obviously you’ve got the AdWords and the decorations and the Mardi Howards and not to exclude you, John would put you in there to John, you know, like, like, like the superstars of the whole deal. 01;04;23;27 – 01;04;27;21 Brian Niska They like the names, but there’s a lot of people out there that just like to fish. 01;04;28;00 – 01;04;28;11 Marty Howard Yeah. 01;04;28;22 – 01;04;53;11 Brian Niska Yeah. You know, And I think that there’s a real solid mental health argument for fishing. I know for myself it’s a big part of my life. I think for a lot of people, you know, it’s got a real social benefit. I think it connects us with the land. So environmentally there’s a real upside. Obviously there’s the whole economic thing, but it terrifies me when I think of, you know, rivers that we’ve lost the ability to fish. 01;04;53;25 – 01;05;16;21 Brian Niska You know, I’ve never fished the Skagit it’s important for me to say that I know a bit about it, but I’ve never fished it. And it blows my mind that there’s not a scenario where you couldn’t have a situation where guys were out there fishing unweighted flies, say, or in a certain area at a certain time, and that somehow their perceived impact is at such a level that it’s just not something that can be tolerated. 01;05;17;00 – 01;05;33;03 Brian Niska Given all those other upsides I just said. So, you know, getting perhaps a little bit into the dangerous political waters there. But when you lose a fishery like the Skagit, there’s still people that want to go fishing. You have this waterbed effect. It pushes people to other fisheries. And I just don’t think there’s an upside to these closures. 01;05;33;03 – 01;05;34;06 Brian Niska We talked about that before. 01;05;34;15 – 01;05;34;19 Dec Hogan Why? 01;05;34;20 – 01;05;35;29 Marty Howard Absolutely Yeah. 01;05;36;16 – 01;06;05;06 Dec Hogan You know, I want to touch on something that our world he comes third the buys the local politics and they forget that we have things in common you know anybody doesn’t well listen to what somebody has to say it has they have different political ideologies. That’s really the root of our problem. I think we should work to find the things that we have in common rather than than look for the things that divide up. 01;06;05;22 – 01;06;07;17 Dec Hogan That’s my point. You know, I’m. 01;06;07;23 – 01;06;38;03 Jonathan Farmer I’m actually hyper political in my old age. I honestly feel that if you’re not fishing around that is at least 13 feet. You’re not fishing. So I you know, it’s that’s just one thing that I can’t handle. This is one of those rules. Those golden rules is you don’t bring up politics or religion at the campfire. And but, you know, as far as Tucker Carlson goes, you know, I don’t follow him. 01;06;38;21 – 01;07;05;14 Jonathan Farmer But it would be extremely interesting to hear what makes him click. And what attracted him to the fly around and especially the two handed rod. I have a friend who is a professional golfer, was a professional golfer. He’s kind of out of the scene now, but he won the Masters and won the British Open and one of the used in the world golf Hall of Fame. 01;07;05;14 – 01;07;28;20 Jonathan Farmer But he’s also one of the best two handed casters that you’ll ever see on the planet. You know, he’s not, you know, for just a non-pro. He ranks right up there and he lives for the two handed cars. And, you know, he can he can go the ten days straight without a hook up and still want to go to the one day. 01;07;28;24 – 01;07;54;07 Jonathan Farmer You know, and it’s interesting. And I don’t care who you are, what you’ve done or you know, what your status is in life when it comes to picking up the 200 rod and chasing an fish. There’s just something that clicks internally. And, you know, you talk about the organic, the whole organic feeling of a the game that we play. 01;07;54;29 – 01;08;16;12 Jonathan Farmer And I think that’s what it is. There’s nothing like there’s nothing like catching a fish, especially I still heard on the fly that you’ve tied even to the point on the leader that you’ve tied or even a rod that you’ve built. There’s nothing like it. The rewards are outstanding. I think that’s why people, you know, that do get it. 01;08;16;27 – 01;08;20;08 Jonathan Farmer Stand in a river all day long trying to catch one of these little fish. 01;08;20;29 – 01;08;21;23 Dec Hogan But, you know. 01;08;22;01 – 01;08;48;23 Jonathan Farmer The second you start debating anything like debating steak casting compared to Skagit casting or debating anything that brings in a a very negative vibe that can destroy the whole the whole conversation and put you in a place that isn’t very comfortable. I try to keep even the the politics of the two handed cast out of the conversation. 01;08;49;09 – 01;09;15;09 Dec Hogan Well, I live in a rose colored world because everywhere I go we spread peace and happiness and there’s no debates. We just live and love and fish and swing flies. And and Marty, there is something better than catching one on your own fly. It’s me catching one on your fly. You know, to a point earlier, talking about trophies, you know, that’s one way. 01;09;15;09 – 01;09;34;20 Dec Hogan And to that point, the one way I get to live vicariously through some of my clients and one thing that I’ve I’ve over the years instilled in them is you catch a fish on a fly. More often than not, I’m going to retire, you know. And so just back to that point real quick of how we remember these fish. 01;09;34;23 – 01;09;57;01 Dec Hogan I’ve got quite a few flies on one of them sitting on my windowsill right now at the deli owner size one. You know, I like to call most copies, but the no escape, I remember that fish to this day, I’ll never forget it fell right out of its mouth when it hit the net. And I can look at that fly in it and it triggers up memory. 01;09;57;01 – 01;10;17;25 Dec Hogan There’s flies that definitely need to be retired at times. And that’s pretty cool too. I mean, and nothing against other methodologies, but I don’t know that too many people that fish Caucasian yarn go, Oh man, I’m saving this one. Sighs Fluorescent red with the shark juice yarn. It got my biggest deal. I’m hanging out on the wall. Probably not so much. 01;10;18;13 – 01;10;23;20 Dec Hogan I’ve got a fly on my desk. Who? I lost a fish on. They’ll never get fish together. There you go. There you. 01;10;23;20 – 01;10;23;28 Marty Howard Go. 01;10;24;20 – 01;10;42;13 Dec Hogan I like the guys getting back to fly, trying to go, Oh, gosh, that fish, when you get a fish on it, it breaks the chance. I’ll see you. Oh, I got a counter rap. I’m like, Oh, boo hoo! You broke it on a £12 steelhead that you worked for seven days for, or how many? 16 Mardi. So, yeah, we’re okay. 01;10;43;04 – 01;11;10;06 Jonathan Farmer Well, it’s kind of it’s kind of like women and childbirth, you know, they forget and that’s why they have a second child or a third child. They kind of forget what the experience was. And that’s kind of like what it is for me. You know, I forget those those 18 days straight without a hook up and stepping into the next stream with that reassurance that that there is going to be a fish on the end of my line sooner or later. 01;11;10;06 – 01;11;12;24 Jonathan Farmer So it’s all good when it all comes around. 01;11;13;12 – 01;11;14;24 Dec Hogan We love the process. 01;11;15;14 – 01;11;28;14 Brian Niska Marty. I’ve heard my wife say something similar. We’ve got five little kids, so this is Marty. My background research suggests you’ve got a pretty sweet golf swing. And Jonathan, I know you’re a big golfer. Are you a golfer as well? 01;11;28;27 – 01;11;31;29 Dec Hogan Oh, I’ve had my time in the past, but I’ve generally said. 01;11;31;29 – 01;11;50;22 Brian Niska No, no. Okay. Well, you know, what I’ve observed as a casting instructor is that when you come across and I think you touched on this earlier, Marty touched on this earlier, when you come across someone who’s got a great golf swing, typically that’s going to be a quick, steady spear caster. But that being said, you bring up golf around fishermen, you get different reactions. 01;11;50;22 – 01;12;07;19 Brian Niska And I may have told you this, Jonathan, but I love to bring it up because I think it’s kind of neat is we have a golf course here at the fishing lodge. We got 18 holes right at the lodge, but it’s a different type of golf. Now, to be fair, there’s a really good local golf course about 10 minutes away. 01;12;08;00 – 01;12;26;00 Brian Niska And when we get hit with high water, it’s it’s not unusual for for the guests to go over there and take a golf day. But we’ve got on our property 18 holes of Wiffle golf. And this is a this is a sport that, to my knowledge, was invented in Whistler, where I, of course, was for 12 or 14 years, whatever it was. 01;12;26;16 – 01;12;43;19 Brian Niska And here’s how Wiffle golf works is you get one shot per hole. It’s like it sounds it’s a Wiffle ball and it’s typically about a three quarter swing. Could be a full swing. It’s in the forest. Natural stuff. But the goal here is to hit the green. And if you hit the green, you get a point. It’s just one shot per hole. 01;12;44;02 – 01;12;59;20 Brian Niska If you hit a trap, you lose a point. Now, this is upside down because the winner is the person with the highest score. But the cool thing about Wiffle golf was a few things. One is it doesn’t take very long to get around. The second is if you have a bad shot. It’s just one bad shot. You’re off to the next hole. 01;12;59;20 – 01;13;13;13 Brian Niska But those traps are adjacent to the greens. So if you’re not a great golfer and you’re not hitting a lot of greens, you’re also not hitting a lot of traps. Your stays around zero. Remember, you hit a trap, you lose a point, you hit the green, you gain a point. And if it goes straight in the hole, by the way, you get two. 01;13;13;24 – 01;13;20;12 Brian Niska So if you love to have all you guys at the lodge at some point and if we do well, maybe we’ll play some golf there. Jonathan. 01;13;20;12 – 01;13;23;12 Dec Hogan But I’ll be playing. I’ll be playing golf. That sounds fun. 01;13;23;28 – 01;13;37;25 Brian Niska Let me ask you, though, those of you that are keen golfers, you know, a day on the on the golf course, a day on the river, if you had the opportunity to do either, you know, I’m assuming hopefully it’s fishing, but you know, what’s the attraction to golf for you? 01;13;38;10 – 01;14;04;03 Dec Hogan For me, it’s been a lifelong thing, just as fishing has been. I started playing golf when I was seven, started fishing. I’d done it. Remember my first time out fishing. So that says something there for me. Golf is as mental as it is. Anything just like steel at fishing, though, you’re you encounter, I would say, more problems more rapidly. 01;14;04;13 – 01;14;30;08 Dec Hogan And it just you know, as I’ve gotten older, just like how I approach a river I guess my golf my my course management has improved, but it’s just something that I’ve enjoyed my entire life, just like fishing. So I think there is a direct correlation to, to your point that golfers especially good ones pick up two hand casting very quickly. 01;14;30;25 – 01;14;58;25 Dec Hogan I’ve talked with with my close fishing partner, Bruce, about this many times disease in he’s golfers well and seems as if there’s those two things are relatively closely related I generally don’t find a good golfer that’s going to have a bad to him cast and I know exactly who you are talking about when he says this friend who won the Masters, as I’ve been in golf in my entire life, I can only imagine that that man has an amazing to any task. 01;14;59;15 – 01;15;23;19 Dec Hogan But yeah, for me, there are two very different things. If I had to pick one over the other, it might vary upon the day. You know, for many of us we’re a steel heading becomes a federal project and how we get to our rivers, my close to steel and rivers 3 hours away, though it feels like it’s to cross a completely different state when the closest golf courses 10 minutes or. 01;15;23;23 – 01;15;25;00 Marty Howard So for. 01;15;25;25 – 01;15;50;23 Dec Hogan A bridge is a day on the steel at river though. Awesome. So in my attempt to add some color to this, again, sometimes that steel heading steps is like golfing and that you’re casting great. Also, you know, you’re hitting the greens. I mean, your drives are just amazing and your casts are amazing and you’re putting it up on the green, just chipping it up there. 01;15;50;23 – 01;15;53;25 Dec Hogan Perfect. Over and over. Only there’s no. 01;15;53;25 – 01;16;04;01 Marty Howard Holes. Yeah, that’s it. That’s guaranteed to steel in, you know. Yeah. 01;16;04;04 – 01;16;13;05 Dec Hogan Yeah. So you’re fishing and everything’s going well or you’re standing during the process and there’s not nothing on the end. So you’re just missing pot after pot after pop. 01;16;13;25 – 01;16;14;02 Marty Howard Yeah. 01;16;15;24 – 01;16;38;21 Dec Hogan This is. No, I’m on the green. I get into that to the point of the shared skill level, skill set between golfers and fly fishers or spray casters. I will never forget the first time I as an adult, I swung a golf club. I was going along, taking photographs because that’s my other huge passion is birding and photography. 01;16;39;19 – 01;16;55;26 Dec Hogan But I went along to take some pictures of some guys and they go Give it a shot. And I said, Yeah, I’ll try it. And I understood the basic mechanics of a swing, you know, And I just I got up there, I had nothing to fear. It’s just a ball that doesn’t move until you hit it, right. It just sitting there. 01;16;55;26 – 01;17;18;05 Dec Hogan Static. I see people sweating over the ball. I always laugh because it’s not moving. But I distinctly remember saying to myself, this has got be a lot like casting in that I’m not going to try and crush this thing. I’m going to swing easy. Nobody taught me anything. And to this day, and I did have a stint of golfing. 01;17;18;17 – 01;17;28;23 Dec Hogan It’s one of the best drives I ever made in my life. It was my very first one, and all I did was think about what I knew about casting of Fly Rod far, and then I sucked after that. 01;17;29;02 – 01;17;31;02 Marty Howard Yeah, start thinking about it. 01;17;31;18 – 01;17;33;16 Dec Hogan It’s hard. It’s way harder than fishing. 01;17;33;29 – 01;17;54;24 Jonathan Farmer This buddy of mine, Mark O’Mara, and I was one of the greatest swingers on the planet when we first met. It was a guy in I guided him the first time he ever fly, fished him. And during the whole experience, I’m not going to get into the story, but it’s a fun one. But he wanted to watch me fish and I said, Mark, I don’t fish when I’m guide. 01;17;54;24 – 01;18;13;23 Jonathan Farmer And that’s just one of the rules. In the end, he said, No professional golfers, we learn by watching. And I picked up the rod, hooked a fish and first cast and handed the rod back and said, There you go, that’s how you do it. And he called me a name and and said, I can’t wait to get you on a golf course. 01;18;13;23 – 01;18;38;02 Jonathan Farmer And I said, That’s not going to happen because I don’t golf. And he goes, Well, you do. Now, from that point forward, you know, I’ve got all his hand-me-down clubs and we spend a lot of time together. We fish, we fish over 100 days a year together and travel together. And he’s taken me all over Ireland, all the golf courses and Ireland, and I’ve golfed all the exclusive clubs. 01;18;38;03 – 01;18;38;09 Jonathan Farmer And. 01;18;38;20 – 01;18;40;13 Dec Hogan Can you taste sugar daddy. 01;18;40;20 – 01;19;02;27 Jonathan Farmer Yeah. Sugar daddy to the max. But the whole thing comes back to if I would rather be on the river or golfing. There’s not even a choice there. I would rather be on on the water, even the conditions were the worst that they were than on the golf course. And Mark, you know what’s funny about Mark and golf to him was his job. 01;19;03;01 – 01;19;31;17 Jonathan Farmer And he would rather he would tell you straight up that he’d rather be on the water than than on the golf course. And I’ve watched him progress with his fishing and it is true that when you’re an athlete, especially someone that knows how to golf, you can pick up a fly rod and get down pretty quick. And just this year, he it’s a fun story because I fish people go, what fly line do you use? 01;19;31;17 – 01;20;01;28 Jonathan Farmer And I said, Wow, this green one I got from Air Flow back Backbone Deck designed the first practical heads for airflow and I that’s the line that I use. And I haven’t changed and probably never will. I love the line and it’s not easy to carve out. It’s not a forgiving line like a gadget line. It’s longer. It takes a longer rod to really fish it well, and that’s what I like. 01;20;01;29 – 01;20;02;12 Jonathan Farmer I like. 01;20;02;17 – 01;20;03;00 Marty Howard Longer. 01;20;03;00 – 01;20;27;24 Jonathan Farmer Lines and longer rods and enjoy not having to strip when when I’m fishing decks tactical, which hopefully he’ll get off his butt and get with his current company and get it redesigned and out on the market. But when I fish those lines, I don’t have to strip line in. I can fish a comfortable clash with one or two strips and it makes the whole experience a whole lot better. 01;20;27;24 – 01;20;50;01 Jonathan Farmer But but that’s what I enjoy. So back to the the Mark situation and as as he’s always been kind of a scandi guy and he just goes like, now I just don’t like stripping anymore because my hands get wet and they get cold. And I said, Yeah, I want you to go to this line. You know, it also almost eliminates ice in the guides because you’re not stripping the line through the guides and your hands aren’t wet. 01;20;50;01 – 01;21;12;14 Jonathan Farmer And it’s just a very comfortable to fish. And he goes, Well, I’ve got to do that. And went into town and bought a medallion and came back out and he couldn’t cast it. It took him a while. He had to work to learn how to throw it. But you know, just by watching both me and my other fishing buddy, Derek, he got it down and was Chuck in the long line. 01;21;12;14 – 01;21;24;20 Jonathan Farmer And he goes, Now I can see it now. I can see what you guys are doing. And I like this. And so, you know, as far as being a golfer and a five fisherman. 01;21;24;22 – 01;21;25;05 Marty Howard You know. 01;21;25;05 – 01;21;27;17 Jonathan Farmer That’s definitely fly fishing over. 01;21;27;17 – 01;21;27;27 Dec Hogan Golf. 01;21;28;19 – 01;21;35;02 Brian Niska Yeah, it’s funny how people get really strong opinions on certain types of fly lines. They duck, you know, the criticism. 01;21;35;02 – 01;21;37;04 Marty Howard Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01;21;38;02 – 01;21;41;06 Dec Hogan It is on, man. It’s all. It’s all what you like. 01;21;41;15 – 01;21;47;19 Brian Niska I like the way Marty put it there. It’s. It’s, you know, it’s using. What brings you pleasure fish where you want to go? 01;21;47;19 – 01;22;08;14 Dec Hogan Absolutely. You want to get ahead? I don’t care. Summertime and using small flies. And I see these guys put on little floating tips on their scratching heads, albeit they have a ball not just about handle the fish well be kind to fellow anglers and you know whatever I used to care I don’t now to each his own. 01;22;08;28 – 01;22;29;19 Brian Niska You know what I still sometimes like to rile people up There is this one and I’m not trying to start a fight with anyone on the screen here, but I have a very strong opinion about what hand one should be wrestling with. And all my staff knows this, right? So when they see someone who’s set up the other way every now and again, they’ll just kind of slide them my way because it’s it becomes a bit of a joke around here. 01;22;29;19 – 01;22;52;04 Brian Niska The truth of the matter is, is I don’t get real with whatever side you want, but I like to I like to sometimes have this discussion. And once again, I’m trying to start a fight. Somebody would tell you guys. But yeah, it’s it’s just kind of funny how another one would be. You know, there’s probably 300 different ways to manage your your running line, right, with various loops and whether it’s off the top hand or the bottom hand. 01;22;52;19 – 01;23;09;27 Brian Niska But maybe it was about a week ago I saw a loop, had a really video of of a guy who’s a great caster, and for whatever reason, he put the damn running line in his mouth. He had. I saw it, so I had to get on there and I just said, you know, why? Why does he do it like that? 01;23;10;02 – 01;23;23;21 Brian Niska And some guy started to say, Oh, you know, it’s because he’s way too deep and it allows him to shoot further. And I’m like, Well, I weigh deep sometimes and I don’t I don’t do that. And I just thought it was kind of funny because I recognized it for what it was. It was an attention drying cool clip. 01;23;23;22 – 01;23;39;26 Brian Niska And I know the guy. I don’t think he I don’t think he actually fishes that way. And I really don’t know if I’d want to put running line in my mouth if I was shooting a long cast. But it just goes just goes to show that it’s, you know, as you get older, you kind of mellow out a little bit and, you know, things that were a big deal they don’t have to be in. 01;23;40;07 – 01;23;57;21 Brian Niska You know, I used to get kind of down on people sometimes who, you know, who who were really pigeonholed themselves in fish, only a certain type Scandi casters, as an example, is a really good example. And now I’m just like, you know what? You can only fish one rod at a time. You can only fish one line at a time, just fish, whatever brings you joy. 01;23;57;21 – 01;24;13;20 Brian Niska And if you’re a gear guy and it God bless and we all have them as clients, you know, the guy shows up with eight rigs and and a duffel bag full of flies and sink tips, whatever. You know, those guys probably end up fishing less than the guy that just always fishes the same set up. 01;24;14;04 – 01;24;20;08 Dec Hogan What hand firing? No, You fight on just the fact that you’re saying that you pirate real with your right hand. 01;24;20;09 – 01;24;22;09 Brian Niska Yeah. Right handed caster. Right handed really. 01;24;22;14 – 01;24;23;28 Dec Hogan Throws mark sort of thing already. 01;24;24;05 – 01;24;24;14 Marty Howard All right. 01;24;24;24 – 01;24;25;29 Jonathan Farmer Just making sure. 01;24;25;29 – 01;24;38;23 Brian Niska And you know what? Since I brought it up, I’ll tell you what. So. So the scenario is a guy comes in, this guy’s left as oh, you’re right handed guy, you’re doing it wrong. He says, What do you mean? I said, Well, why you dealing with your left? He goes, Oh, because I want to pull on the fish with my good hand. 01;24;39;02 – 01;24;56;21 Brian Niska And I said, Pull on the fish. Aren’t you worried about falling backwards? I go, If you ever you ever get, you know, catch a big fish like a big Chinook I want to push on it. So I show him how I put the right to the left side and I push against the rod and then I real down and I explain that you’re not generally moving a big fish with the real you’re moving it with the rod and then capturing the line. 01;24;57;02 – 01;25;12;10 Brian Niska And then I say, Hey, you know, I’ve been a fishing guide now for about 30 years and it hasn’t happened 50 times, but it’s happened more than ten where I’ve seen a guy reeling left and he’s got his real handle and a fish grabs it and the real handle hits his open pocket and the whole scenario ends pretty quickly. 01;25;12;10 – 01;25;20;22 Brian Niska You wouldn’t want that to happen, would you? But the truth of the matter is, is if a guy manages that and he’s happy wriggling left, why am I bugging them? That’s because I’m bored. 01;25;21;04 – 01;25;22;06 Marty Howard Yeah, right. No, it’s fun. 01;25;23;21 – 01;25;43;07 Dec Hogan I in one instance in we we call in Tony’s knife. Knife toss when you have to switch hands from the hand that you’re holding the rod with to the other two real Athol guys sockeye fishing on the upper Kenai. And he went to switch hands and the rod got yanked out of his hand and fly. 01;25;43;07 – 01;25;44;25 Marty Howard Did he. Did he get it back? No. 01;25;45;16 – 01;25;49;19 Dec Hogan No, that’s, I think, gone forever. 01;25;49;19 – 01;25;50;10 Brian Niska Hilarious. 01;25;50;17 – 01;25;51;00 Marty Howard Yeah. 01;25;51;16 – 01;25;59;14 Jonathan Farmer That’s what I’m saying about politics and debating. But there’s no debate of which. And to illustrate as just one that you just don’t debate. 01;25;59;14 – 01;26;01;07 Dec Hogan We don’t know. There’s no winning. 01;26;01;24 – 01;26;02;24 Marty Howard Yeah, Yeah. 01;26;03;01 – 01;26;05;03 Dec Hogan I would say there’s no right way to do it. 01;26;05;11 – 01;26;07;29 Marty Howard No. Yeah. Whatever makes you most comfortable. 01;26;08;10 – 01;26;42;00 Brian Niska Yeah You know, I think I think what we want out there in this, this community is we want participation and we want people to like you guys are saying, uplift others and we want to fight together to ensure that, you know, fish habitat stays intact and the importance of wild fish. And, you know, hopefully the people that manage these resources recognize that, you know, we’re advocates and they find a way to keep us with that access and opportunity I keep talking about because, you know, as I get older and I’ve got these little kids, I got five of them and the oldest is nine. 01;26;42;00 – 01;26;52;00 Brian Niska So they’re pretty little. And I think, man, I hope these kids can still fish the way that we’re all able to fish as they get older. So that’s kind of becoming a thing for me. 01;26;52;12 – 01;26;53;06 Dec Hogan Absolutely. 01;26;54;00 – 01;27;09;02 Brian Niska So before we wrap up, I want to come clean on something, too. I should said, you know, talk about taking my kids fishing. They’re not fly fishing yet. This is important thing. I’m not trying to like have like a five year old fly caster. When I go with my kids. They gear fish, they bar fish. Just want them out there having a good time. 01;27;09;12 – 01;27;35;08 Brian Niska And I’m not going to force fly fishing on them because they’re in a really unique situation where they’re surrounded by it and when they want to do it, it’ll be there for them. So I’m not really an elitist guy in that sense. But that being said, you know, I do think there is a good argument for fly fishing only regulations in certain fisheries when we’re talking about ways to maintain access and opportunity in a situation where, you know, fish numbers maybe aren’t as high as people would like them to be. 01;27;35;21 – 01;27;41;20 Brian Niska Before we wrap up, do you guys have any comments about management, sustainability, that type of thing? 01;27;42;07 – 01;28;02;21 Dec Hogan I’m living in my rose colored glasses on and anymore I don’t even know. And I am an optimistic guy and I’m a cheerleader. And well, at the same time, this is going to be the most negative thing you’ll hear from my mouth. I’ve been. I have been literally I’m closing in on 40 years for steelhead fishing for my whole life. 01;28;02;21 – 01;28;26;05 Dec Hogan But and I see the same the same stuff that was going on 40 years ago as regards to conservation and user groups and infighting and all wanting the same thing, but looking at it from different angles and and not really working. So I’m not so all my head in the sand obviously can start a whole nother podcast with this. 01;28;26;05 – 01;28;52;17 Dec Hogan But I’m, I have faith in nature, but that’s about it. So, you know, I don’t really have a whole lot to add to that. I’m not one to make decisions for other people. And, you know, I can say that my time that was spent specifically on the sold duck, the most courteous anglers that I encountered were the gear that they would pull up their rigs and float on the other side of the river. 01;28;52;17 – 01;29;21;23 Dec Hogan When I had bobber fly, anglers throw my feet, you know, there’s there was a lot of respect given and I made sure to to let them know, thank you so much for the ground. I’ll because they could see I had to hand rob my hand and you know and then on my home river admittedly I’ve told people you ever get that close to me again in my cast in your boat because there is no respect on my home river God’s will row right in front of you. 01;29;21;23 – 01;29;56;12 Dec Hogan And those people need to realize that they’re, you know, using that river for money every single day of the season. And then you have recreational anglers or other guides out there and we’re all just trying to do the same thing. And it’s their big rivers that we fish. You know, there’s a wild ring. And I think just instilling, you know, and this is where I again, I really appreciate my upbringing on a golf course, but I learned etiquette at a very early age and that transferred into my fishing career. 01;29;56;21 – 01;30;40;22 Dec Hogan You know, I started out as a gear angler and a largemouth bass guy and for all taxes and moved over into the fly fishing realm at about 17 years old and then then really got into it once I once I moved to Alaska permanently in 2008 and started still hunting almost immediately. You know, you take those same principles onto a river and but yeah, I think I think just everybody trying to understand that we’re all on a different timeline as far as our journey as still hunters and anglers as a whole, and that we should just try and be as kind to one another and give each other grace as much as possible, you know, 01;30;41;01 – 01;30;51;09 Dec Hogan is really important to the longevity of, our sport. If we make it into a competition, then that’s, you know, the start of the the downfall of things. 01;30;51;23 – 01;31;29;15 Jonathan Farmer You know, I think Dick and Jonathan taking credit where it’s due. If you look at the books that has produced and the book that Jonathan has produced as far as progressing the sport, and that’s ensuring that there’s something out there for people to to gain knowledge and to put to use so that they can continue on their journey and their and as far as conservation goes, there’s no more important aspect of conservation than it is teaching beginners and people, you know, into enjoying and engaging and enjoying the sport. 01;31;30;00 – 01;32;08;03 Jonathan Farmer And one thing that I that I am quite fortunate we have an expo here that I’m involved with in locally that is actually a quite large expo. And through that expo there’s all kinds of opportunities to teach and to promote and to do things that get people excited about fly fishing. And then once you’ve got them excited about fly fishing, then you can start talking about contributing even money to conservation and putting back and paying back and paying forward for the things that that bring you enjoyment and through the club life. 01;32;08;03 – 01;32;39;10 Jonathan Farmer I know you know, a lot of people, clubs aren’t for everybody, but through fly and to you the two big clubs and and you know well not locally internationally you know through those clubs that’s whole emphasis is to to get people hooked and then to get them into a position where you can teach them about conservation and conservation can be as simple as catch and release or it can be as simple as just going out on an outing and planning wells. 01;32;39;11 – 01;33;11;13 Jonathan Farmer But once you get people engaged in more than just the personal aspect of the sport, but paying back for what you receive, then you can really progress the whole thing. And and when you when you get numbers involved, it’s pretty exciting. I know when that teaches fly casting monthly and through those classes, he has no idea the impact that he’s having on those people and what they’re going to eventually become and do. 01;33;11;13 – 01;33;42;12 Jonathan Farmer As far as it comes to conservation, such as just the smallest efforts that, you know, a book isn’t the small effort that the just the efforts that you put into it can be it doesn’t have to be donating thousands of dollars to conservation or it doesn’t have to be spending hundreds and hundreds of hours of on stream rehab and this, that and the other thing being involved in in different programs and all that kind of stuff that can be as simple as teaching of beginning fly time class. 01;33;42;20 – 01;33;51;19 Jonathan Farmer And that’s how you’re going to preserve the whole process and get people involved. And what without people, you have no support? 01;33;52;00 – 01;34;06;27 Brian Niska Well, Marty, that’s a that’s a lovely way to wrap this up in a bit of a call to action. So before we say goodbye, I’d like to give you guys each the opportunity to let the listeners know how they can, how they can find. Yeah, we’ll start with Dick, then we’ll go Jonathan and finish up with Marty. 01;34;07;29 – 01;34;29;24 Dec Hogan You know, I don’t have a website one of these days. I will say that for four years Instagrams is Dick Hogan and and then Facebook, Dick Hogan take a look on there. You know I post some fun things and some educational things and and happy stuff. But eventually there’s more coming right now. Any books I have are all out of print. 01;34;30;07 – 01;34;52;05 Dec Hogan And with my brother in law there, hopefully we’re going to we’re going to change that and get some things back in print per request daily. I get messages and emails and text and instant messages about where they can find this book or that book. And then I’ve had five shops approach us to, Hey, we need this book back, so stay tuned. 01;34;52;16 – 01;35;21;08 Dec Hogan Thank you. So I do want to add and correct me if I’m wrong deck, I’m pretty sure that you have two Instagram accounts. Am I correct? Correct. Yeah. The second one is thirds and photog with the head. And I followed that page and I’ve career’s through it. And don’t let Dex settle himself short sought to niche others harmed but is giving credit where credit is due. 01;35;21;08 – 01;35;44;29 Dec Hogan The man is an amazing photographer Marty is as well. But yeah you do have the second Instagram account that’s boats and photography. The Hogan underscore bird photography. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that’s funny you say that because I, I was showing somebody something from it yesterday, so it was up on my account and I saw that you had commented on one of my just this morning. 01;35;44;29 – 01;36;07;16 Dec Hogan I saw that you had commented on one of my body. Yes. Well, thanks. Yeah. And before we go on, if you don’t mind, also for me, I do teach I don’t advertise it a whole lot because the shops that sponsor it usually do it. But occasionally I’ll, uh, you know, Marty said I travel around the nation all year, year round, teaching to hand casting slash fishing schools. 01;36;07;16 – 01;36;30;22 Dec Hogan So check in now and then. Sometimes I have to fill a spot and it’s there, so thanks, Jonathan. Yeah, of course. And yeah. Jonathan Farmer You can Google me and find a whole bunch of stuff. If you google Jonathan Farmer fly dying to find some old YouTube videos that I did. Midnight Sun Custom Flies on Instagram and on Facebook. 01;36;31;07 – 01;36;53;02 Dec Hogan Midnight Sun Custom flies dot com. Though if you look at the flies that I have on the site, they will always be out of stock. I only do custom orders. They’re there for clients to get an idea of what they want when they’re putting together an order. You know, the only minimum that I ever have is three per color per pattern. 01;36;53;02 – 01;37;11;19 Dec Hogan I don’t have a dollar amount. So if you up three flies, cool. Let’s do it. And that’s for the client and myself and so that they have a back up for their back up. So if they retire a fly on a special fish or their first deal, you know, they have those back ups on them. For me, it’s efficiency. 01;37;11;28 – 01;37;47;21 Dec Hogan I break that when it comes to plastic flies because those get. But yeah, that’s how you can find me on my book Chasing from time all still have them Pacific salmon flies. And thanks to Dak and Marty for helping that come to fruition. I will also add that I, along with a lot of other people, even though I have a signed copy from both of you all sitting right next to me of your book, I would advocate that that goes back into print because if and when it does, I will be buying another copy. 01;37;48;04 – 01;38;16;12 Dec Hogan You know, I think that books are a great way to preserve not only the history of of the art of Fly tying or fly fishing or anything in general, but they can’t be erased. You can erase a book, you can delete pictures, you can delete thread, you can delete comments, you can delete all these things off the Internet and they can even be done for you if those platforms don’t like what you’ve posted, you cannot delete a book. 01;38;16;26 – 01;38;36;15 Dec Hogan And so I’m a big advocate for for growing your own personal library. And I was before I ever wrote one. So yeah, that’s how you can find me in that. Some custom fliers dot com on Instagram. I’m happy to answer questions and do it from the moment I wake up to the time I go to bed journal at night. 01;38;36;28 – 01;38;37;18 Brian Niska Thanks Jonathan. 01;38;38;06 – 01;39;03;25 Jonathan Farmer I’m easy it’s just Marty Howard at Face on Facebook. Marty Howard on Instagram and and Marty Howard at MSNBC.com. If you want to send me an email and trust me, I’ll respond back and just add the book situation on the book thing. A lot of people don’t realize that Jonathan self-published that book and I self-published our fly time book. 01;39;03;25 – 01;39;19;03 Jonathan Farmer And so that’s the reason why there’s limited numbers of copies out there. If we had a big publishing company that was in charge of all this not coming out of our own pocket to get stuff done, I’m sure it’d be different, but you can expect. 01;39;19;18 – 01;39;19;22 Marty Howard That. 01;39;19;25 – 01;39;43;20 Jonathan Farmer It may take a while, but you can expect a second printing of those still had flight time book and but that’s not where it’s going to end next. Got another book in and I know he does and because of the lessons that we’ve learned and I have learned over the last ten years, we can do it in-house. And that makes it really fun and it makes it easy and it makes it profitable. 01;39;43;20 – 01;39;46;14 Jonathan Farmer So expect more in the future. 01;39;46;29 – 01;40;03;02 Brian Niska Excellent. You guys will. Hey, I want to thank you. I really appreciate you coming on here. And hopefully we’ll do again and Dec very much looking forward to having you as a guest at The Lodge. Jonathan and Marty, I’d love to get you up here sometime. Jonathan, your case down here because you’re up in Alaska, so. 01;40;03;07 – 01;40;03;17 Marty Howard We’ll be. 01;40;03;17 – 01;40;06;00 Jonathan Farmer Up in September when I come see you. 01;40;06;10 – 01;40;07;02 Brian Niska Oh yeah, there you. 01;40;07;02 – 01;40;08;10 Marty Howard Go On the weekend. 01;40;08;18 – 01;40;34;22 Brian Niska Please do. Please do. All right, you guys. Well, thank you very much. Well, folks, that was a fun conversation with some absolute legends. I want to thank Dick, Marty and Jonathan for taking the time to join us today. Thanks as well. To everyone tuning in. We’ll be back with another episode in a month. In the meantime, please feel free to send in your comments, questions and ideas to me via email at info at Skin of Space.com. 01;40;34;22 – 01;40;48;03 Brian Niska Once again, I’m Brian Escott and you’ve been listening to In the Bucket podcast brought to you by the workplace wing.
Steelhead-Fishing-Culture.webp

Conclusion with Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer & Marty Howard on Fly Fishing Culture

Steelhead fishing is about more than swinging a fly through a favorite run or landing a memorable fish. It’s about the people who inspire us, the rivers we protect, and the traditions we choose to carry forward.

Throughout this episode, Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer, and Marty Howard share how steelhead fishing culture has been shaped by mentorship, fly tying, conservation, and a lifelong commitment to learning. Their stories remind us that preserving the sport isn’t just about protecting wild steelhead—it’s about passing along the knowledge, respect, and sense of community that define the steelhead experience.

Jonathan continues to carry those traditions forward through Midnight Sun Custom Flies and his newest venture, Alaska Steelhead Camp, where anglers can experience Alaska’s incredible steelhead fisheries while learning from experienced guides who share the same passion for the sport.

Whether you’re tying your first steelhead fly, revisiting a favorite fishing book, planning a trip with Alaska Steelhead Camp, or introducing someone new to the sport, you’re helping shape the future of fishing culture.

What traditions, mentors, or experiences have had the biggest impact on your own fishing culture?

     

956 | Newfoundland Atlantic Salmon Fishing with Stephen Brunt

newfoundland atlantic salmon

Episode Show Notes

Stephen Brunt shares how a magazine assignment turned into a lifelong connection with Newfoundland. Along the way, we cover Atlantic salmon tactics, the legacy of Lee Wulff, the unique culture surrounding these rivers, and why this part of Canada has become one of his favorite places on earth.


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newfoundland atlantic salmon

Show Notes with Stephen Brunt on Newfoundland Atlantic Salmon Fishing

About Stephen Brunt

Stephen Brunt is one of Canada’s most respected sports journalists, authors, and broadcasters. During a career spanning several decades, he covered the world’s biggest sporting events while writing bestselling books on Muhammad Ali, Wayne Gretzky, and other iconic athletes.

Away from the newsroom, Stephen is an accomplished fly angler whose passion for Newfoundland Atlantic salmon has shaped much of his life. He now spends each summer exploring the rivers of western Newfoundland, sharing his appreciation for the people, landscapes, and traditions that make the province unique.

How One Magazine Assignment Changed Everything

Stephen grew up fishing for native brook trout in southern Ontario before spending decades working as one of Canada’s most respected sports journalists. His introduction to Atlantic salmon happened almost by accident after Outdoor Canada Magazine offered to send him anywhere in Canada for a story.

That first trip took him to the Upper Humber River. It took four days before he hooked his first Atlantic salmon, but the experience changed far more than his fishing. Eventually, Stephen bought a seasonal home in Newfoundland and has returned every summer since.

Portland Creek: One River That Keeps Calling Him Back

Today, Portland Creek has become one of Stephen’s favorite rivers on Newfoundland’s west coast. Located about an hour and a half from his home, it offers consistent fishing throughout much of the season, something that’s uncommon on many Atlantic salmon rivers.

Unlike rivers where fish quickly push upstream, Portland Creek often holds salmon from mid-June through early September, giving anglers plenty of opportunities throughout the season.

Highlights

  • Accessible river with roadside access
  • Fish often remain in the system all season
  • Excellent destination for first-time Atlantic salmon anglers
  • Guide Rod Brophy knows every run intimately

Walking in Lee Wulff’s Footsteps

Few anglers have influenced Atlantic salmon fishing like Lee Wulff, and Portland Creek remains one of the places where his legacy lives on. Stephen shares stories of Wulff’s lodge, his floatplane, and the remains that can still be found near the river today.

Wulff wasn’t just promoting fishing. He was decades ahead of his time on conservation, advocating for catch-and-release long before it became common practice. His ideas weren’t always popular, but many of today’s Atlantic salmon anglers still benefit from his vision.

Stephen also recommends one book for anyone planning a Newfoundland trip, Bush Pilot Angler by Lee Wulff.

newfoundland atlantic salmon fishing
Photo via: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Bush-Pilot-Angler/Lee-Wulff/9781586671297

Single-Hand Rods Still Shine in Newfoundland

Although two-handed rods have become common in many Atlantic salmon fisheries, Stephen still prefers a traditional single-hand setup. Most of Newfoundland’s rivers are well suited to six- and seven-weight rods, especially during the grilse run.

Portland Creek can become windy, so he occasionally steps up to an eight or even a nine-weight to better punch through the breeze. Otherwise, simple gear works just fine. One of the biggest surprises is how little emphasis local anglers place on expensive equipment. Many successful fishermen still use straightforward floating lines and simple monofilament leaders.

Stephen’s typical setup

  • 6-weight or 7-weight fly rod
  • 8 or 9-weight when windy
  • Floating fly line
  • Straight monofilament leader
  • Wading staff
  • Felt soles depending on conditions

Choosing Flies and Fishing the Portland Creek Hitch

One of the biggest adjustments for trout anglers is realizing Atlantic salmon aren’t feeding in freshwater. Instead of matching insects, anglers are provoking a reaction strike.Stephen fishes classic flies like the Blue Charm, Thunder and Lightning, Green Machine, Undertaker, and Bombers. Confidence matters as much as color.

The other uniquely Newfoundland technique is fishing the famous Portland Creek Hitch, where anglers skate a wet fly directly in the surface film instead of below it. Watching an Atlantic salmon slash at a hitch fly is one of the signature experiences of Newfoundland fishing.

Favorite flies

  • Blue Charm
  • Thunder and Lightning
  • Green Machine
  • Undertaker
  • Bomber patterns

Stephen’s advice

  • Fish at a walking pace.
  • Mend to control swing speed.
  • Dark flies on bright days.
  • Light flies on dark days.
  • Confidence often matters more than fly pattern.

Why Grilse Are Underrated

Many visiting anglers dream about landing a multi-sea-winter salmon, but Stephen says he’d happily take a day of catching grilse. These smaller salmon fight aggressively, jump repeatedly, and provide nonstop action. For anglers experiencing Atlantic salmon for the first time, they’re every bit as memorable. Larger salmon tend to stay deep after the take before exploding into powerful runs, creating an entirely different experience.

Atlantic salmon notes

  • Grilse typically weigh 4–6 pounds
  • Larger multi-sea-winter fish often reach 10–12 pounds
  • Portland Creek regularly produces both

Reading Water with a Local Guide

One of the biggest advantages of fishing with a local guide isn’t casting instruction. It’s learning to see water the way someone who grew up on the river sees it.

Stephen says his longtime guide, Rod Brophy, points out current seams, submerged rocks, and holding water that most visiting anglers would simply walk past. That local knowledge often makes the difference between covering water and actually finding fish. Rather than overcomplicating things, Rod focuses on simple adjustments, showing where to place a swing or suggesting a fly change after moving a fish. It’s an easygoing approach built on decades of experience.

Guide tips

  • Focus on current seams.
  • Fish the downstream side of submerged rocks.
  • Trust local knowledge.
  • Cover water methodically.
  • Don’t overthink fly changes.

Beyond Portland Creek: More Rivers to Explore

While Portland Creek has become Stephen’s favorite destination, it’s far from the only great Atlantic salmon river on Newfoundland’s west coast. The Humber River offers some of the province’s biggest water and biggest fish, including salmon pushing well over 30 pounds. Big Falls becomes a gathering place each season as salmon stack below the falls before continuing upstream.

Smaller rivers inside Gros Morne National Park offer an entirely different experience. They’re intimate streams that feel almost like trout water, yet they still hold healthy salmon runs depending on conditions. North of Portland Creek, rivers continue nearly all the way toward Labrador, giving anglers countless options throughout the season.

Other fisheries mentioned

  • Humber River
  • Big Falls
  • River of Ponds
  • Torrent River
  • Gros Morne National Park streams

Sea-Run Brook Trout Are a Bonus

Atlantic salmon may be the main attraction, but they’re far from the only fish available. Stephen points out that sea-run brook trout often share the same water as salmon during parts of the season. These fish can grow to impressive sizes and provide another memorable opportunity while swinging flies.

Farther upstream above Portland Creek’s lake, anglers can also find large resident brook trout. Some still reach the kind of sizes that made Lee Wulff’s Newfoundland films famous.

Wayne Gretzky, Mike Tyson, and the Stories Behind the Headlines

Stephen also reflected on writing Gretzky’s Tears, a book centered on Wayne Gretzky’s move from Edmonton to Los Angeles. Looking back, he believes that trade helped reshape professional hockey across North America.

The conversation also turned toward Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali, comparing two legendary fighters whose careers took dramatically different paths. Stephen observed that Ali’s remarkable resilience helped define his legacy, while Tyson often struggled once opponents pushed back.

Although sports consumed much of his professional life, Stephen says fly fishing eventually became the place where he could completely disconnect.

Why Fishing Never Became Work

Stephen briefly experimented with writing about fly fishing, but quickly realized it changed the experience. Instead of simply enjoying a day on the water, he found himself analyzing every detail. That was enough to convince him that fishing should remain something personal rather than another assignment.

Today, many of his favorite outings involve hiking alone into small salmon rivers, listening for rises, watching wildlife, and spending hours immersed in nature whether he catches fish or not. “There’s no such thing as a bad day fishing.” That perspective perfectly sums up the way Stephen approaches both salmon fishing and life outdoors.

Dry Fly Takes You’ll Never Forget

Few moments in fly fishing compare to watching an Atlantic salmon rise to a Bomber. Stephen explains that unlike trout, salmon often inspect the fly several times before finally committing. When the take comes, patience matters. Rather than setting immediately, anglers should pause just long enough for the fish to turn before lifting into the fish. He also shared a common local strategy of making several short drifts over a likely holding lie before changing flies if a fish refuses.

Dry fly tips

  • Fish Bombers on short drifts.
  • Pause before setting the hook.
  • Expect multiple follows before a take.
  • Don’t rush the hookset.

Belize, Permit, and Another Fishing Obsession

Outside of Atlantic salmon season, Stephen has become equally passionate about saltwater fly fishing. Belize has become his favorite destination, particularly around Placencia, where he spends time chasing permit, tarpon, bonefish, and snook. After years of practice and guidance from experienced local guides, he’s now landed permit in the double digits.

Even after covering world championship sporting events, he admits few things create more excitement than watching a permit finally commit to a fly.


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Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
WFS 956 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: When you spend a career around some of the biggest names in sports, it takes a special place to leave a lasting impression. Over the years, Stephen Brunt has interviewed and written books about legends like Muhammad Ali, Wayne Gretzky, and many more. As one of Canada’s most respected sports journalists, he spent decades telling stories from the biggest stages in sports. But today, we’re heading somewhere far away from the arena lights. In this episode, we’re talking about Newfoundland Atlantic salmon, the people who call this place home, and why certain rivers stay with us long after we’ve left. Stephen Brunt is a Hall of Famer and award winning journalist, author, broadcaster and dedicated Atlantic salmon angler who spent years exploring rivers and culture of Newfoundland. Today, we’re going to find out why Newfoundland occupies such a unique place in the Canadian culture. We’re going to find out about the people, traditions, music, and the communities that surround this amazing part of the world. We’re also going to find out what keeps anglers returning here when success is never guaranteed, and why some places become part of the story, whether you planned it or not. All right. If you’re interested in connecting more, you can check in with Mountain Waters Resort and find out more. We’re going to talk about that today. And the big trip we got coming here. All right. Let’s get this one going. Here he is Stephen Brunt. How you doing, Stephen? 00:01:19 Stephen: Hey Dave. I’m good. 00:01:20 Dave: Good. Good to have you on here. We are going to talk about a big trip that I know you’ve been on and that we’re going on here this year to Mountain Waters Resort. We’re going to be fishing for Atlantic salmon, and we’re going to hear some stories and maybe the experience from you. And we’re also going to check in on your background. You’ve got a really unique background in Canada as a sports writer. You’ve written some really great books. You got a whole history here. So it’s going to be a challenge to, to keep this, this episode rolling and not stray too far. But, um, but yeah, maybe take us back first to Atlantic salmon. How did you first find out about this place out in Newfoundland? 00:01:54 Stephen: I, you know, I grew up, I’m from southern Ontario. I was kind of split my year between southern Ontario, Newfoundland, and, uh, near Toronto. And I grew up, you know, fishing with my dad for brook trout, eastern brook trout, native brook trout in the little tiny streams around where we lived. We taught ourselves to fly fish at a certain point. And, uh, that was really, you know, that was really my fishing background in a lot of ways. I am a trout fisherman. And about, uh, nineteen ninety nine, two thousand, somewhere in there, I was at a, at a magazine awards dinner in Toronto, where I was nominated for something. And the editor from Outdoor Canada magazine, which is kind of the leading outdoor magazine in this country, came up to me and said, hey, look, I, I hear you fish. Would you like to write something for us? I said, I can send you on a trip. I’ll send you pretty much anywhere you want to go in Canada, which was pretty hell of an offer. So I, you know, I kind of thought about it for a minute and I said, you know, I’ve never fished for Atlantic salmon. It’s kind of, you know, one of the kind of holy grail things for a fly fisherman, obviously. And, and at that point in my life, I’d never been to Newfoundland. So, you know, some months later, I got a call saying, hey, we got a trip for you there. You’re going to fish on the upper upper Humber River. Uh, it was kind of late in the season, so it wasn’t super prime time. And we’re going to send you out there and you meet a photographer out there and you guys are going to you can fish for salmon and write a story about it. So yeah, that was that was the beginning. It took me four days to hook my first fish. And, uh, it was a, you know, if you’re writing a story about it, there’s a hell of a lot of pressure on you to think of the boy, I better I better have something to write about. You know, you don’t want to come away empty handed. But yeah, it’s. Yeah, I was, uh, you know, I loved it, obviously. And it, you know, not only kind of changed my fishing life, it changed my life. Life. Like, you know, we, I bought a house out here almost, you know, oh, it’s super impulsively. And we’ve been living here seasonally ever since. 00:03:34 Dave: That’s cool. And you started out on the, the Upper Humber. Did you fish some other waters over the years out there. 00:03:39 Stephen: Since then I’ve fished all over the place. Yeah. So we’re on the I’m on the west coast of Newfoundland. Um, if you look at our map, you know, it’s a great big island. It’s I’m a from here to the capital city, Saint John’s is an eight or nine hour drive. So, you know, it’s a big hunk of rock out here. But the West Coast around, you know, from the southern, very southern part of it all the way to the very northern part of it is loaded with salmon rivers, pristine salmon rivers. So, you know, within a couple of hours of where I live here in, in, in Winterhouse Brook, which is in the national park in Gros Morne National Park, there’s probably seven or eight rivers I could hit within a two hour drive. 00:04:14 Dave: And is one of those Portland Creek. 00:04:16 Stephen: Yeah it is. It absolutely is. It’s about Portland Creek is about an hour and a half from here. And I started fishing Portland Creek seriously, about three or four years ago. I guess it’s become one of my go to spots out here. 00:04:28 Dave: Nice. We’re going to talk a little more about that. You know, we’re heading out there and we’re going to be fishing starting out at Portland Creek. And I think everybody on the trip is new. I’d never been out there. So we’re going to get a little a little insight from you today to talk about it. So how far is it from where you are now up to Portland Creek? 00:04:45 Stephen: Uh, probably, you know, I can make it in about an hour and a half. So cup of coffee in the morning and be up there to and be swinging the fly by, you know, seven thirty, eight o’clock in the morning. I’ve got a guide. You know, as a non-resident, you’re required to hire a guide to Newfoundland. So I am a non-resident for licensed purposes. So I have a regular guide, Rod Brophy, who I fish with. You’ll meet him when you’re out. Oh, yeah. I’m sure he’s a fantastic guy and a good dude. And we’ll, uh, it’s a quite an accessible stretch of water. You know, you can, you can essentially drive right up to the bank. The waiting can be a bit challenging depending on the river levels. So bring a staff and, you know, bring your felt’s probably. And, uh, one of the great things about that stretch of river is that a lot of the rivers here, you know, very much, uh, run determined. So my local river here, the Lohman, you know, has about a month, you know, where it’s really good. And then the fish push on through, you know, in Portland Creek, you know, again, depending on water levels, you can fish there from, you know, the middle of June, right through to the end of the season, which is the first week of September here. Like there are fish hold there pretty much all the time. 00:05:47 Dave: Yeah. First week, this is great. Well, and like I said, we’re going to kind of bounce around a little bit on all this. But one thing I think it’s interesting, because you have this experience as a great sports writer in Canada. You know, you’ve probably heard some of the stories about Lee Wolfe. I think that’s interesting. And I’m just reading a book about his biography, about his life. It’s really interesting because, I mean, he was all about doing similar things as you, right? Kind of talking about areas, promoting areas. And that was an area at Portland Creek. And then the lodge is specifically is where he stayed for a while. Do you know a little bit of that history? 00:06:20 Stephen: Oh yeah. For sure. Um, so the book, I don’t know which one you’re reading, but Bush, there’s a book called Bush Pilot Angler, which is worth looking up, which is about his experience in Newfoundland specifically, and about mostly about Portland Creek, but also about some other things he did in this area and up in Labrador. So if you’re planning on coming out here, it’s a really interesting read. He came here in the fifties, I guess, originally, certainly, you know, after the war. And um, you know, it was not developed as a certainly not developed as a fishing destination at all. There was, you know, there’s a fishing history here going back to the eighteenth century with English captains coming in and fishing fly fishing for salmon with. You know, the kind of the original fly patterns, which then were all, you know. Have been transformed here using all the local materials. So you see a lot of bear and moose hair in the, in the fly fly patterns here. So there’s a long history of fishing here. But Wolf came up here. He ended up working for the Newfoundland provincial government to promote the fishery. So he had a lodge. The original lodge he had was just three miles down the road from where I am on, on what’s on bond Bay saltwater. And he had a little Piper cub that he would fly in there a floatplane, and the guys would come in on the. They would catch the Newfoundland Railway road, which doesn’t exist anymore, but. And take it up to Deer Lake. And then they would bring them up to this lodge, and then he would fly them in to the rivers north of here, so especially. And Portland Creek, he built a lodge there where you’ll, you’ll see the, the remnants of it are there. And actually the you can see where the dock was, where he used to tie up the float. 00:07:47 Dave: Oh, cool. So there’s going to be remnants of the old lodge in the dock a little bit there. 00:07:51 Stephen: Yeah. And this in the town where I live, they had a Lee Wulff museum when I first moved here, which was, you know, it had, but it was like they had like a pair of his running shoes, you know, it was very homespun. And look, I’ll tell you, he was a bit of a polarizing figure here. You know, some of the locals didn’t, you know, because he was bringing in sports and, uh, they were advised to step aside. He did hire a lot of guys to guide, and then he left in a huff eventually, because he wanted the government of Newfoundland to essentially turn over the sport fishery to him and let him run it. And he was, you know, he was a great advocate for catch and release before anybody was doing it. And this is very much the culture here is very much a retention culture. So he kind of went against the grain that way. He clashed with the guy who was the premier long, you know, decades long premier, a guy named Joey Smallwood. And eventually he packed up his plane and went back to Pennsylvania. But, uh, yeah, there’s a lot of Lee Wolfe stories around you. If you find anybody of a certain age, just ask them. You’ll get a story. 00:08:43 Dave: Okay? Yeah, we’ll have to do that. That’ll be fun. Yeah, I think it is pretty cool. I think one of the great things, like you said, is the conservation. We’ve had many guests on the podcast that have talked about the influence of Lee on them and to this day, right, that he influenced people. And I think that goes back to Joe Brooks. Right? I think another another writer that influenced Lee. So it’s a cool history, but we’re going to talk a little bit of your background a little more on your sports writing, because I know you’re pretty famous really around around the, the country, the world on what you’ve done and some books. So but tell us about the fishing. I want to, I want to hear a little bit more details because, you know, I know it’s a single handed game where we’re at, you know, and around the really around the world, the Spey has become big. Talk about that. What is the gear you’re using there at Portland Creek? 00:09:23 Stephen: I’m single handed. I’ve messed around with Spey rods, especially fishing in Quebec. And the, you know, the Gaspé where there’s a lot of spey rod action. There’s some guys here who do it, you know, especially on the Humber. There’s some big water in the Lower Humber. But again, it’s it’s my own limitation probably that, you know, I’ve never gotten comfortable with with with a Spey rod. I’m a single handed guy and out here because it’s primarily a grilse run here. Right. So which are the salmon. You know, one year, one year at sea and back. So smaller, a lot of smaller fish, but sometimes in enormous numbers and a lot of its small water, you know, it’s almost like fish in a trout stream back home. Some of it, like the Portland Creek is big, but you’re not throwing you don’t have to throw huge line like you’re there’s wind issues there more than anything else. So if I’m up there and it’s windy, I’ll, you know, I might go up as high as, you know, even a nine, eight sometimes. But generally my go to rod here is a seven or a six. 00:10:14 Dave: Is a seven or six weight. That’s cool. 00:10:16 Stephen: Yeah. Because if you’re, you know, five or six pounds on a seven or six weight, it’s lots of fun. 00:10:20 Dave: Yeah. That’s awesome. And now Portland Creek’s a little bit bigger. So there’s a chance there’s going to be some bigger fish. So are you using a seven weight there if it’s not windy or what does that look like. 00:10:29 Stephen: I might if I’m, you know, willing to kind of risk it. I have hooked bigger fish up there though. So you’re and you’re yeah, you’re more likely now again, a bigger fish. You’re not talking about a twenty five or thirty pound fish. The only place you’d ever see those here is in the Lower Humber. And there’s some forty pound fish in the Lower Humber. But you know, you’re like a good a salmon salmon, not a grilse, you know, ten, twelve pound fish. Yeah. You you definitely. You know, I’ve I’ve I’ve hooked and landed those fish in in in Portland Creek. But I’d say the main reason I gear up a bit more there is just to cut through the wind because it it’s infamous for wind. The local guys will tell you that the wind’s not blowing. The fishing isn’t any good, which doesn’t make any sense, but in my experience it’s one hundred percent true. 00:11:06 Dave: So okay, so you want a little wind? 00:11:09 Stephen: Yeah. It’s a good thing actually. Yeah. 00:11:10 Dave: Yeah. But I think it’s interesting with the, the Spey versus single hand game, we’ve had lots of conversations on it. But the cool thing is, is that the single hand rod is still a great tool out there, you know, for, you know, steelhead, Atlantic salmon, really any species. It just depends. But so it sounds like at Portland Creek, you’re not having to make huge like long casts or maybe describe that. What’s your typical cast out there? 00:11:30 Stephen: Yeah, you can like, you can throw, you know, more line if you like. It’s obviously the more water you can cover at times, the better. You know, certainly in most, you know, this kind of fishing. Um, but I have, there are guys there who, who use two handed rods. It’s not in Newfoundland. It’s not common in Newfoundland with Newfoundlanders the way it would be in Quebec, where a lot of guys switched over. Right. So yeah, you’d be able to cover a bit more a bit more water. But but it’s not like you know, the other way. Reason this bay has been, you know, would be useful sometimes. Obviously, if you have if you’re up against a bank and you’re just trying to, you know, roll casting with the trees behind you, but you’re wide open up there like there’s nothing behind you. So. So yeah, if you’re a, you know, a semi competent single handed fisherman, you’ll, you’ll be, you’ll be fine out there. It’s not a distance game. 00:12:17 Dave: So you have a, basically a nine foot nine weight. That’s if it’s windy that’s your go to. And is it just a line like weight forward line? Do you have a specific line you like or are you a big gear guy or what’s the what’s your take there? 00:12:29 Stephen: I’m not a super gear guy. And again, you’ll find if you talk to locals out here, man, know they’re like, they’re not gear guys. 00:12:34 Dave: It’s like, just grab whatever line. Just go grab a dry floating line. You’re good to go. 00:12:38 Stephen: Yeah, exactly. Like some of the guys are the best fisherman I’ve met out here, though, who, you know, Newfoundland fishermen are very bare bones gear and, uh, you know, a piece of straight eight monofilament on the end of a floating line. You know, that’s cool. 00:12:50 Dave: That’s good to hear. In a lot of ways. I feel like that’s kind of cool to know all the, all the local guys are just like pretty straight, pretty standard, like just grab whatever and just go. 00:12:57 Stephen: Yeah, well, and there’s guys, you know who I’ve had guys certainly who’ve guided me on some of this little river down the road here from me who, you know, looked at me, thrown and said, why are you throwing all that line? Like just, you know, they’re guys hooking fish on, you know, with the barely beyond the barely more than the leader out at the end of the tip of the rod. But they know they know where the fish are. They’re, you know, tight swing. And the tricky thing, you know, I found with salmon fishing in general is not so much the technical part. Like, it’s not like I do saltwater fishing too, right? Which can be super technical at times. It’s being able to read the water and reading the lies and kind of understanding. And there, you know, a lot of them are, you know, the fish are still sitting in the same place as they were when Lee Wolf was here. So, you know, they’re, they take you to so and so’s walk and say, throw it there. Generally listen to them. 00:13:39 Dave: God, that’s right. We’re fishing. We’re gonna be fishing runs that have probably not changed in fifty years or more. 00:13:45 Stephen: No, like barring a big flood or something where it pushes the rocks around or pushes like I’ve had that happen more where I am here where rivers change over the winter because the big ice flow or something. But yeah, that’s one of the beauties of Portland Creek, though, is you go up there and you feel like I’m sitting, I’m standing in the footsteps of, you know, decades of guys. And, uh, there was a guy who used to fish. He just passed away a couple of years ago, and he had been coming there every summer for forty years, and he could barely, you know, I tell you, he could barely walk, but he could still wade out. 00:14:15 Dave: He could still do it. 00:14:16 Stephen: Oh, yeah. He was out in water. I wouldn’t have gone out in and and the pouring rain, throwing those casts one after another. God love him. I hope I’m doing that when I’m eighty five. 00:14:24 Dave: I know he was eighty five. Yeah. Yeah. We occasionally we get some of those guests on. Yeah, eighty five nineties and they’re still out there fishing and swinging flies. It’s, it’s pretty inspiring. Cool. Well, and so it sounds like, yeah, I mean, you mentioned kind of some of the gear. That’s pretty straightforward. So grab a, you know, I’m bringing a nine weight and seven weight, right? And I’m going to go grab a probably a weight forward line. I’m gonna probably find something that maybe has a little bit, maybe a little kind of bulkier that can punch through the wind. But again, there’s like every line company has like a dozen lines that would work, you know, different types. So I think that’s not going to be the limitation. But flies maybe talk about that. And I’m guessing flies isn’t the big factor either. But what do you like to throw on if you’re going to go out there tomorrow? What’s going to be your first fly? You’re swinging? 00:15:04 Stephen: Well, you know, one of the first things that, you know, if you haven’t fished for Atlantic salmon that you have to learn is, of course, they’re not feeding. They don’t feed in the fresh water. That’s they stop feeding and they come into the river. So you’re not trying to mimic anything, you know, so you’re not matching hatches like you would as a trout fisherman. It’s they’re reacting to movement, you know, kind of like a defensive action almost as much as anything. And they’ll kind of slash out at a fly based on the movement and, you know, maybe the shape or maybe how it moves water, but it’s not food. So flies can be almost anything, you know, like the classic fly patterns. Look here, everybody throws a blue charm and then the blue charm doesn’t work. You tie on another blue charm. So, you know, I like to fish small flies and, you know, obviously in big water you might throw a bigger fly, but blue charm, thunder and lightning, you know, and then things like green machines are really effective here sometimes like fishing, a little like a bug as a wet fly swinging it. And then when the dry fly fishing is on and which is can be amazing here, bombers. So deer hair bombers and bugs, orange hackle, green hackle, you know, there’s all kinds of multicolored ones that guys experiment dirty bombers the guys use here with the long hackle. That’s a lot of guys use those. Now. I don’t know if that makes any difference to the fish. You know, it’s sometimes, you know, if you as you know, if you hook a fish on a fly, you cast that fly with more confidence. So that can be it. You know, you throw it with a little more conviction. But I’ve caught fish on swinging a bright pink fly here that some guy made. Yeah, Undertaker’s. 00:16:32 Dave: Pretty much everything. 00:16:33 Stephen: Yeah, pretty much everything. Dark day. Throw a lighter fly like bright day. Throw a darker fly. But again, I’m not sure. I’m not sure any of those things matter. The pace of the swing matters. I think more than anything. 00:16:43 Dave: How do you get the pace of the swing right? Describe that a little bit. 00:16:45 Stephen: You know, mending the slow to slow the fly down if you need to or throw on more forty five than, you know, throwing more kind of square to, uh, or rather than throwing a little bit downstream, you know, you can kind of adjust the speed that way. It’s kind of hard. But again, I believe me, it’s a work in progress for me. But you want the fly coming across at kind of a walking pace. And in Newfoundland, you know, the other thing that’s unique here is that almost everybody uses the hitch, the Portland Creek hitch. So rather than like if you’re fish in Quebec or New Brunswick, you know, the Restigouche or the Miramichi or, you know, the Cascapedia, they’re they almost always fish wet flies below the surface. So here they want to cut that V right on the surface. So right in the film. And they want to see that wet fly coming across the film. That’s the way guys fish wet here. 00:17:32 Dave: That’s cool. What is that about? Because that is really unique. I think we’re all excited about that because getting an Atlantic salmon is one thing, getting Atlantic salmon, where it’s kind of on the surface like that is seems like the next level. Why do you think that is that the Portland hitch? You know, it’s such a key. It’s used there so much. And then other areas of Canada, it’s not. 00:17:50 Speaker 3: I don’t know. 00:17:51 Stephen: You know, I have no idea. Like it’s I, it’s funny. Like I, again, I fished a fair bit in Gaspé in the last ten years and, and. 00:17:57 Dave: And you’re not doing the hitch, you’re not doing the hitch there. 00:17:59 Speaker 3: You know, the guides. 00:18:00 Stephen: Will say, what are you doing that for? And they, they want to fish, you know, and I’ve got fish there and they fish different patterns for sure. But they want to fish generally fish the wet fly four or six inches below the surface. And you know, here there are, I know some guys that experiment with, you know, we’ll, we’ll do that certainly down in the lower Humber. You know, there’s guys who will use, you know, maybe even a sink tip when the water is way up at certain points in the year to kind of get a fly down to bait fish that are kind of stuck to the glue to the bottom, but I don’t know, the fish here are aggressive, right? Like it’s the water is cold and grilse are aggressive by nature. So they do like to swing it on the surface. And they and it is look, in terms of the take from a point of view, you know, either that or one of them sucking down one of those big bombers. It’s it’s pretty cool. 00:18:41 Dave: Pretty cool. Yeah. It is. And the grills. Now, what is the size range that is there a size when it becomes when it’s not a grills, is there like a cutoff? 00:18:49 Stephen: Yeah, I think the, the official limit in terms of because you can’t retain a salmon here, there, there is retention here still. And so it has to be below sixty three centimeters. So that technically is, you know, and there are tags issued here. So there’s two tags per angler. And as I say, there are a lot of retention fishermen. So there are guys who go out and fill their tags and then they don’t fish again the rest of the year. So anything below that would be is a grills. But you know, in general, you’re talking about a, you know, four or five, six pound fish for a grill. And then, you know, when you start getting up to eight, nine, ten, you’re probably into salmon. And, you know, obviously beyond that. 00:19:24 Dave: That makes sense. Yeah. And so sixty three centimeters is about twenty four, twenty five inches somewhere in there. So yeah, that’s a good size fish. I mean, anything over twenty inches I think is a, is a nice fish. So, so those are good. But basically yeah, anything above that twenty five inch range is going to be a kind of an adult. And so yeah, and like you said, ten to twelve pounds is pretty. You can get fish like that on Portland Creek. 00:19:46 Stephen: Yeah. So those are what they what MSW multi sea winter fish. So that means they’ve gone to sea more than once. And uh yeah. And those are, it’s, you know, it’s a different experience. Like if you hook a grill, you know, it’s a very aggressive take and they, they, they will fly instantly. They’ll be in the air right away. And, you know, bigger fish, like a lot of other species, bigger fish, the flies are just going to stop dead. And it’s going to sit for a minute. And then it’s then you’re waiting for that explosion. 00:20:13 Dave: Yeah. You’re waiting. It’s kind of, you know, so, you know, if the fish isn’t jumping out of the water right away, it might be a bigger fish. 00:20:19 Stephen: Correct. Yeah. 00:20:20 Dave: Yeah. That’s good. Yeah. We did a, um on the other side of the country up in Alaska. We fished for Chinook salmon and it’s a little bit different but similar where they have these, they have these fish that are, um, you know, they call them like jacks basically, but they’re nice size fish. They’re similar deal. They’re there like I was. I caught the first one. I said, man, that’s a great fish. But they’re not the fifteen to thirty pound fish. So it’s kind of the same thing. Mini jacks is what they call them, right? They call them mini jacks when they’re below a certain range. So it’d be similar to the grills. 00:20:47 Stephen: Well, I don’t know, like I like big fish are great. You know, I’ve been lucky enough to catch a, you know, some decent fish, you know, more bigger fish in Quebec than here, but some nice fish. But I’ll tell you. Just getting tight. Yeah. As an angler, you know, if somebody said you’re gonna catch a half dozen grills today, you’re not going to catch anything big. I’ll take the half dozen grills. 00:21:04 Dave: Yeah, one hundred percent agree. I think everybody like we’re saying going on this trip is the same way. I’m totally good. You know, having never caught Atlantic salmon, if I catch one or even if I don’t even catch a fish, you know, just the experience of being there, I’m sure is going to be amazing. 00:21:17 Stephen: And I’ll tell you one other thing about salmon. Just one other thing is, but again, if for guys who are steelhead fishermen, because some of the techniques are pretty darn similar and a lot of ways the fish are similar, but, you know, as you know, you’re swinging for steelhead, you don’t necessarily see any, you know, the, the first thing, you know, time, you know, there’s a fish there. If you get a tug, these fish show themselves. So even if they’re not taken, you will see fish jumping and rolling. So yeah, you’ll know they’re there. 00:21:39 Dave: God that’s great. Yeah. There’s a lot of similarities. I was just, I mean, as far as steelhead, right? Because if you go back in the day before people were steelhead fishing, they were learning from Atlantic salmon fishermen and books and stuff that was written. So, and especially out here where I’m at, we have summer steelhead, right? So these are very similar to Atlantic salmon, at least in a lot of ways different from winter steelhead. So you kind of have the two life histories. So I’m excited to see the difference right between the steelhead and the similarities between the two. But that is one you will never see steelhead too often showing themselves. Right. That’s cool about Atlantic salmon. 00:22:10 Stephen: I’ll give you a warning that the salmon guides, when they have steelhead fishermen come out here for the first time, they find that they have to kind of it’s like re-education camp. So I say listen to the guides because they always say the steelhead guys are super stubborn about how they do stuff. And they say, well, this is a different fish, man. So, um, yeah. 00:22:28 Dave: I know, that’s it. Well, talk about that with your guide. You’ve fished with rod. We’re excited. I know Rod’s an awesome guy. What is it like when he’s describing when your guide’s describing where to fish, are you kind of reading the water, seeing the spot, or is he saying you need to get it within that little pie plate area? Right. Describe that how you’re working with your guide and finding the fish. 00:22:46 Stephen: He’s been really good at kind of, you know, showing me, helping me to see stuff. It’s not a kind of an intensive teaching session or anything. It’s it’s, it’s lower key than that. But, um, and it’s not like, you know, it’s not like being in Key West having somebody yell at you while you’re paying them. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s far more cool than that. Um, but he’ll say, look, you know, we’re looking for seems a lot of the time, you know, say, or a rock where the, where, you know, even a submerged rock where you can see the, you know, that where the current moves around the rock and he’ll say, you know, the far side, try and bring her down the far side or work out to the far side of that rock. Because a lot of times it’s a progression. And, uh, yeah, he’s, you know, and, and change in flies is kind of a mutual decision. You know, you kind of, yeah, you want to try something different and, you know, what do you think of that? And, uh, you know, there have been times when he’s been, you know, standing on the shore having a yack with the other guys while I’ve been standing out in the middle of the river, and I’ll hook a fish, and then I’ll yell back at them and say, you know, it’s all about the guiding rod. You know that? Nice. Yeah. So but the beauty of guys like him, he grew up on that river, so he knows every rock and he knows the kind of the changing patterns, the water levels, all of the things that go with that river. So, you know, that kind of knowledge is, you know, if you had it, you could bring a great, technically great guide in there and drop in and you wouldn’t get that right. You wouldn’t get somebody who said, you know, if you stand by this rock and, you know, in this kind of water level and, you know, bring it past there, there should be a fish. 00:24:09 Dave: Yeah. So we mentioned a little on, uh, Portland Creek. There’s some other rivers out there. Maybe describe that a little bit. It sounds like there’s a number of different. Are these a mix of really small, big or medium sized rivers or, you know, is Portland Creek kind of the biggest one out there? 00:24:23 Stephen: No, the Humber is the biggest one. So it flows its south a little bit south. It flows. The mouth of it is in corner Brook. If you look on a map and it’s it’s big water, big fish. There’s also a place a little bit, you know, kind of upstream from that lower section down by corner Brook, where there’s a thing called Big Falls, which is a famous spot here. And it’ll probably be on the go when you guys are here where, you know, a like is what it sounds like. It is a big falls. You see the fish jumping up the falls, and when it’s on, which you would usually be kind of third week in June, again, through depending on water levels into the kind of beginning of July, you know, there can be a lot of fish stacked up there. And now there’s also a lot of anglers. So it’s a place where you’ll see the local guys out in, you know, in numbers, you know, not sometimes shoulder to shoulder, but that river. Those are the fish that go into the upper section of that river and the lower section of that river. They’re fish that come later and never leave and spawn down there. And that’s where we’ve had thirty five and forty pound fish hooked and landed. So that’s, that’s kind of cool. There’s two rivers in the park where I am. So that’s just north, a little bit north. That’s very small rivers like almost trout streams, which have, you know, reasonably healthy runs of, of fish depending on the year. And then you had Portland Creek river of ponds and the torrents, the big East, you know, north of there of all good rivers all the way up to the tip of the northern peninsula across from Labrador where, you know, there’s, there’s all kinds of great rivers all the way up there. And generally the fish arrive south to north. So like right now, we’re in the first week of the season. There are some fish way down in the below, uh, corner brook on the southwest coast. And then the run kind of moves north and, um, you know, to the point where like in Labrador, you don’t see fish till July generally. So plus, you know, again, there’s, if you need a diversion, there’s a nice run of sea run brook trout in this area. So which get up to the size of those grills we were talking about so that they can be fun to hit. And, uh, you know, around this time of, you know, into June, um, there’s, you can run into those, you actually, you’ll run into them a lot of the times in the same place as you’re catching salmon. 00:26:25 Dave: All right. So you’ll be swinging for Atlantic salmon. You’ll, you’ll hook a brook trout. 00:26:29 Stephen: Yeah, a big sea run brook trout. And then up upstream from in Portland Creek on the other side of the you’re you’re fishing the outflow of the pond, which is a lake, you know, in Newfoundland, it’s a pond until you know, you’re told otherwise. Oh, they’re all ponds, right. It’s a lake. But on the, on the inflow to that lake, there can be some really big resident brook trout. If you’ve ever seen the Lee Wolfe films of brook trout fishing here, where he’s. Yeah. You know, five and six pound brookies. Like they still exist there. It kind of comes your year. It depends on the year. But there is still some really good resident brook trout fishing here as well. 00:27:02 Dave: There are. That’s cool. So there is a chance when we’re there, if somebody wants to go maybe try, they might head up to the upper part and go for brook trout. 00:27:10 Stephen: Yeah, I’m guessing you will. If you’re there for a few days, they’ll probably run you up there in a boat. And, uh, there’s some, there’s some salmon water up there as well. And, uh, it’s also beautiful. You’re up into the, into the mountains there kind of into cuts in the mountains. And it’s, uh, it’s pretty spectacular. 00:27:23 Dave: Wow. This is cool. Well, this is all good. I’m excited. I I think we can, uh, we’re gonna chat a little more here today, but I’m interested in your background. You know, we’re sitting here doing an interview. I’m interviewing you, but you’ve done a lot in your experience. Maybe take us back on that. You’ve got some pretty, uh, some big high accolades with the stuff you’ve done. But describe that. Have you maybe start us with some of those interviews? Do you have any that resonate with you, interviews you did in your career that were really kind of maybe famous people or that sort of stuff? 00:27:51 Stephen: Well, in the sports world, like I was, I was the sports columnist, the lead sports columnist at the Globe and Mail in which is the kind of the New York Times of Canada for about twenty five years. And, uh, and then I moved over and worked in broadcasting for another twelve or thirteen years after that. Um, with Sportsnet here, which is sort of the, you know, the ESPN equivalent in Canada and worked on kind of documentary projects. And that kind of storytelling did a lot of radio. And I’ve written a lot of books, uh, sports books of kind of all sorts. And, uh, yeah, I covered, you know, back in the day when, you know, newspapers were more vital than they are now and where they sent people to things. You know, I covered anything you could cover at all multiple times. You know, uh, a lot of Super Bowls and, you know, big time prize fights and World Cups and World Series and, you know, the whole, the whole range of stuff. Yeah, it was great. It was a, you know, it was it was a dream job. 00:28:44 Dave: What was it about that job that you loved most? I mean, I’m sure everything was great, but is there one part of it you really enjoyed? 00:28:51 Stephen: You know, there are a lot of those moments where you kind of, you know, you’re like, it was writing on deadline. It was hard. And it’s a, you know, a very kind of particular, you know, skill. And, uh, it wasn’t like it was a, it was a vacation, but there were a lot of moments when you would, you know, step back and just say, Holy smokes, I’m, you know, I’m sitting here in ringside and you know, Ray Leonard’s about to fight Marvin Hagler two rows in front of me or wow. You know, or or Mike Tyson and oh really? Yeah. And I, you know, I went to Ali’s house and interviewed him and, uh, you know, I was courtside for NBA Finals and Final Fours. And, you know, I did twenty five or thirty Super Bowls and saw France win the World Cup in ninety eight and did seven or eight World Cups. So this, you know, this time of year. So I’m sort of you know, retired is the wrong word. But because I’m I’m still working, but I’m kind of on my own clock these days, which again, from a fishing point of view is good, is awesome. Yeah. 00:29:41 Dave: That’s good. Wow. That’s that’s so cool. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, Ali really, I mean, doesn’t get any bigger than that. You know, you think about in sports, right? I mean, he was I don’t even know how you explain. I mean, you wrote a book about him, right? Maybe describe that a little bit on Ali because he’s such a bigger than life person that it wasn’t just sports. Roy. Right. He kind of, uh, you know, brought the world together. 00:30:02 Stephen: Cultural, political, religious. 00:30:04 Dave: Yeah. 00:30:05 Stephen: Yeah, he was the whole the whole nine yards. I wrote a book called Facing Ali, which yeah, I interviewed, I did the stories of fifteen of the guys who fought him and went to all of them, you know, like from famous guys like Frazier and Foreman and, and then also some of the more obscure guys that he fought over the years and kind of told their stories from their perspectives and what it was like to step into the ring with him and how it impacted their lives. There’s a documentary adaptation of it that you could probably find out there as well. 00:30:31 Dave: What’s that one called? Just look up. If you want to see the documentary. 00:30:34 Stephen: They’re both called Facing Ali. And that was that was a very cool project. And because I never saw like, I came along too late to see Ali in the ring. Um, I never saw him fight. I always saw him fight. Like I saw him. He was, you know, my whole life was a culture and a sports figure. And I certainly saw him fight on TV and closed circuit and all that stuff. But yeah, it was, you know, kind of an attempt to look at, you know, those are the guys who get overshadowed a lot of the time. And you know that it’s a pretty unique viewpoint, right? There’s only a limited number of people who ever were in the other corner when, you know, and they said, you know, they rang the bell and it was time to go and Ali was on the other side. So yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a great, I really enjoyed it. And they’re, they’re all pretty interesting people. 00:31:12 Dave: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s I, I, my dad, you know, I know when I was a kid, he loved boxing. And so I watched a lot of the old fights back in the, you know, when I was a kid, you know, the eighties and all that time. And yeah, I don’t know what it is about boxing. You know, it’s that sport thing, man. I mean, talk about brutality, right? And Ali is a great example. I mean, the guy because of boxing, right. We didn’t see him live till I’m not sure when he died, but he wasn’t living till his old age. Right. He had some issues because of boxing. 00:31:38 Stephen: No, he, he took a you know, they kind of tried to frame it in a different way, but you know, and said he had Parkinson’s disease, but Parkinson’s symptoms that were caused by being hit in the head, especially in the last years of his career when he took a lot of punishment. It was awful. You know, I the only time I got to interview him, right, you know, two or three times. But they, you know, he was not he’s not the guy you you would remember. No, I did go. I went to his house and took my kids to see him when they were little. Wow. 00:32:03 Dave: What was that like? What was that like sitting down? I mean, I know it was wasn’t the same Ali, but what was that like sitting there with him? 00:32:08 Stephen: It was pretty awesome. It was, you know, it was funny. It wasn’t really I wasn’t going as a reporter. A friend of mine named Davis Miller wrote a really excellent book called The Tao of Muhammad Ali. And I got to know him kind of on this in the sports writing world. And he told me that Ali lived and, you know, had this place in Berrien Springs, which is kind of towards Chicago. And he said, people show up at his door all the time. And he just he likes people. So he lets him in and they visit with him. So my wife and I and our we had two kids then. They were both really young and, uh, we were driving past her. I was actually at a, at a wedding in Chicago where I was in the wedding party where actually Lennox Lewis was in the wedding party too. So very boxing related story. Wow. And we were driving back and I said to my wife, you know, I told her the story and she said, well, you know, so we drove into the little town and, you know, like went to a gas station or something and said, do you know where he lives? And he said, oh yeah, up the road, told us where it was and big gate and, you know, a little buzzer that’s with a thing on it that said, Emily and I pushed the buzzer and somebody on the other side said, who’s there? And I said, hey, I’m from Canada. And you know, I just wanted to say hello. I’m a, I’m a fan. And you know, um, and the gate opened. Wow. And we drove in and, uh, Ali’s wife, Lonnie, was there with her mom working in the kitchen, and they said, hey, come on through. He’s in the he’s in the den. And my little, my son, who’s a young kid. And I walked in and there he was. We, we hung out with him for a bit. And, you know, he came out and played with my kids and, uh, yeah, it was ridiculous. Like, it sounds, you know, crazy, but, uh, yeah, it was, it was, it was amazing to be in. Yeah. And he was, yeah, he was a diminished guy, but he could still, at that point, he could communicate and he could do his some of his magic tricks. And, you know, my kids were pretty excited. They were pretty delighted. They had no idea. Yeah. Right. The rest of their like, my oldest son is almost forty now. He’s been hearing his whole life about who you know, you remember that, right? You remember who that you better remember. Yeah. 00:33:55 Dave: You don’t forget that. Well, another person that you’ve had connection with, at least written about is Gretzky. And I feel like, you know, especially for Canada, it doesn’t get any bigger than Gretzky. Describe that. What was your experience working on the piece with Gretzky? 00:34:11 Stephen: Yeah, I wrote a I wrote a book called Gretzky’s Tears, which is about really about the when he was sold to the Los Angeles Kings, you know, from he was playing in Edmonton, and they had the dynasty in Edmonton when they won the Stanley Cups. And then the owner in Edmonton ran into some financial troubles. And, you know, Gretzky was, quote, traded, unquote, to the Kings, which set the National Hockey League on the course. It’s on now. You know, in all of the kind of warm, you know, the warm weather locations where hockey is thriving. But it wasn’t in those days. And, you know, he was Bruce McNall was the owner of the Los Angeles Kings. He ended up going to jail. It was a great story. But, you know, it was it was about that trade in Canada was like, there’s no American equivalent to it because it was like, you know, we were selling off one of our natural resources, right? 00:34:54 Dave: Oh yeah. And you were winning and he was winning up there. It’s not like he wasn’t winning. 00:34:58 Stephen: Yeah. The most northerly professional sports franchise in North America is Edmonton. And you know, perfect hockey story. And and you know, and you know, and the truth was that Gretzky was kind of happy to go to LA and he had a had a life there. And that’s, you know, some of the stuff that I found out when I was writing the book. But but yeah, it was a, it was a huge kind of watershed moment for Canadians. And, uh, we have an interesting relationship with the United States. More interesting right now than it’s been in quite a while. 00:35:23 Dave: That’s right. 00:35:23 Stephen: But yeah, so it was, yeah, it was, it was, you know, kind of a way to kind of step back and, you know, decode it as well. It was. So it’s not really just a hockey book, but yeah, I’m proud of that one. 00:35:32 Dave: Yeah. So, well, here’s the question. If Gretzky wouldn’t have if that wouldn’t have happened, you know, take it back. And he’s still up there. Does that change the dynamic of the southern you know, or do you think that happens anyways, even without Gretzky doing it? 00:35:45 Stephen: No. Well, maybe, you know, but boy, like it wasn’t happening at that point. And, you know, McNall bought the team from Jack Kent Cooke, who had had no luck, you know, making hockey work in LA. And, you know, McNall, even though he did it with money he stole from people, as it turned out, you know, sold the kind of star power of Gretzky in LA for people who knew nothing about hockey. But he was the greatest hockey player who’s ever lived and sold him like a, you know, a Hollywood star. And, you know, people were sitting along the rail, all the movie stars and, uh, turned it into a really sexy thing. And then they barnstormed during the exhibition season. They, you know, they played in Las Vegas at Caesars Palace way before anybody thought there’d ever be a team in Las Vegas. And people bought franchises based on that. The Anaheim team was bought by Disney, and the Miami team was bought by Wayne Huizenga, who owned the Dolphins in those days. And all these big shooters came in and paid you know what was then? Outrageous money for NHL teams, right? 00:36:41 Dave: So it made hockey bigger. 00:36:42 Stephen: Yeah. And there were a lot of bumps along the road. But, you know, like you look at the the series the Stanley Cup finals right now there’s Las Vegas and Carolina. Like neither of those teams would have existed without Gretzky. 00:36:52 Dave: That’s it. Do you still follow all the sports as much as you have always in your career? 00:36:57 Stephen: I it’s it’s different. You know, I watch a lot of baseball and I still, you know, I’ll be I’m going back flying back to Toronto Friday for the first game of the World Cup as a as a fan. And you know, I still like going to events live. It’s weird not you know, you have to adjust to not being in the press box. You don’t have to sit there quietly like you do in a press box, you can actually have you can take a side. But yeah, I don’t, I don’t watch stuff I don’t want to watch anymore. Let’s put it that way. 00:37:21 Dave: Yeah. And you mentioned also, um, the Tyson. So you’ve watched, did you see Mike Tyson in person? 00:37:27 Stephen: Yeah, I saw him. I added it up the other I think I saw him twenty five times. I interviewed him the first time when he was just turned eighteen. And I saw him right through to the last fights well through the Lennox Lewis fight. But all that stuff, I was there for the ear bite fight and I also covered the trial in Indianapolis. So yeah, I spent a lot of time around Tyson. 00:37:47 Dave: You did? Yeah. Tyson’s such a unique. I mean, there’s so many right in the sports. It’s interesting about sports and you probably know this. You’ve probably seen it is that, you know, whatever percentage like mental, right? Sports is so mental. And if you don’t have your head on straight, a lot of great players didn’t make it because of that, right? Tyson was was one of the greatest. You know what I mean? Like you got him. I mean who else do you put up there right. You’ve got all the time Tyson was there. He was this. Do you even can you compare that like an Ali to a Tyson? 00:38:14 Stephen: Well, the thing with Tyson was that once he was broken, you know, he never could put it back together again. And, you know, he was kind of and if you, you know, read the books that were written about him early on and kind of the that the kind of fear that was in him, you know, like Buster Douglas kind of broke something there. And it never really was the same after that. And he didn’t, you know, he didn’t want to be like the night of the year bite, which was yeah. 00:38:35 Dave: That was crazy. He didn’t want to be there. 00:38:37 Stephen: He didn’t want to be there. He wanted out. He was getting beat. And, you know, he never came back to win a fight. If you look at his career, he never came from behind to win a fight. And Ali did. 00:38:46 Dave: Yeah. Well, and that’s the ironic thing about it is that Ali, because he was so great and can come back, that actually shortened his life where Tyson maybe didn’t get pounded as much. Right. No, it’s probably a different time too, right? 00:39:00 Stephen: Yeah. He Tyson’s kind of surrendered. You know, like you look at the Lennox Lewis fight, he, you know, he kind of went out and was a bit of a, you know, kind of pretended to be Mike Tyson for a round. But then he basically surrendered and took it. And, you know, he knew what was coming. But yeah, Ali’s bravery and those that second half of his career really, you know, ever, you know, the Thrilla in Manila or the, you know, the foreman fight or, you know, even like guys like Earnie Shavers, you know, teed off on him. Yeah, his kind of guts. 00:39:26 Dave: And yeah, he could take a hit. Right. That’s what he’s known for. He could take a hit and keep going. 00:39:31 Stephen: Yeah. No no one hit him the first half of his career. But that second half he got hit a lot. Whereas yeah Tyson you know yeah he never that’s the that’s the biggest difference. Like when he could intimidate guys and they were you know they almost lost before the opening bell. He would dominate. But as soon as somebody punched back and was willing to stand up to him. Yeah, he never really couldn’t really handle it. 00:39:50 Dave: That was it. Wow. It’s interesting with sports, you know, sometimes we talk about this. The fly fishing is interesting because technically I guess it’s a sport, but it’s really kind of more of a hobby or whatever. But do you I mean, now that you’re kind of the fly fishing has been a big part. I mean, it’s been a big part of your life. Do you make any comparisons there? Have you written much about fly fishing? Have you thought about it? 00:40:08 Stephen: When I was at the newspaper, I, I kind of volunteered. I said, look, I’d like to write about fishing a little bit. And I think I wrote three or four pieces for them. And, you know, maybe they weren’t that interested, maybe I wasn’t. But you know, what I found was that it, it got in the way. It sort of like being a restaurant critic, you know, like my wife was a restaurant critic for a little while, and it just sucked all the fun out of eating in a restaurant. Like because you were you’re kind of trying to analyze it, right? Yeah. And, you know, the beauty of for me of fishing and I think about what I do here like, like tomorrow, I’ll, I’m not sure if there’ll be any fish there, but I’ll go out on my own and I hike in, you know, way up in the river and there’ll be nobody there but me. And you know there’ll be. But there’ll be birds and there might be moose here. And occasionally I run into a bear up there and. But you know, you’re listening like with salmon especially, you know, you might hear like a little splash or something or see a little swirl and, you know, you kind of you got to, you got to be tuned in to the universe. And it’s pure. And, you know, whether I catch a fish or not, right? Like that, there’s a kind of a, I’m not a religious guy, but there is a kind of spiritual element to that that I think other anglers would understand, you know, and I don’t want to mess with that. You know, it’s too good. It’s good. I think it’s good for me, you know, and a lot of levels and and you just, you know, a lot of nothing else really matters when you’re doing that. And I would, you know, turn it turn it into to work is yeah, I don’t want to do it. 00:41:24 Dave: No, no, definitely don’t want to. Yeah. You want to experience the moment out there and, and be part of which is what it’s all about. Well, this is cool. I think that, you know, we’re getting a good feel for not only the the fly fishing, but your background with work. So as you’re out there, maybe talk about that, what is your season look like? So we’re the salmon are just starting to come in here. Are you out there the whole season. Describe that a little bit. 00:41:44 Stephen: Yeah. So I got I got here about two weeks ago and I’ll be here till the middle of September. It is. I’ll tell you, there was a frost here last night. Like it’s been really cold. So um it’s been unusually cold. There’s um there’s still snow on the side of the road just up the way from me, and there’s lots of snow in the hills here, which may, they’re probably still will be when you guys get here. So that’s a bit unusual. So the season here opens June first. And uh, but as I say, it kind of it takes a while before the fish start working and we’ll you know, the other thing with salmon like these, the species is in some distress right now. So you don’t really know what you’re in for until the season starts and kind of what the numbers are going to be like. And then, you know, there’s other co-factors, like whether the water gets low or the water gets warm. We don’t we haven’t had to worry about warm water here until the last two years. Like Newfoundland is, you know, again, you can see where we are geographically. Um, and the water is, you know, again, it’s pristine, but we have had a little bit of low water, warm water issues. But, you know, every seasons, every season’s a little bit different. But because I can fish with, you know, on my own here, uh, as well as going up to Portland Creek and fishing with rod and doing the other stuff, you know, I can casually just go out for a couple of hours and I’m twenty, you know, it’s probably a ten minute drive to the trailhead and then a twenty minute hike and I’m on the water. So I do that pretty much every day. Yeah, that’s pretty great. 00:43:04 Dave: That is cool. Yeah. Are you going to be fishing with rod, uh, a couple times or when’s your next? When’s your trip with him? 00:43:09 Stephen: I’m waiting for him to send the message saying the fish are there. So that’s what I’m waiting for right now. I just sent him a note. We just had a big dump of rain here the last couple of days and the rivers came up, which is good. And he is my you know, because I can get up there quick. The minute he says something, I’ll be in the car. 00:43:24 Dave: That’s smart. Yeah. You’re there. So that’s the cool thing is that that, you know, you’re kind of you’re able to do it. Are you going to be up there through the whole year through September, or would you head back? 00:43:32 Stephen: The one thing about that spot up there is that like mostly here, you know, normally the fishing slows down as you get into deep summer as it does just about everywhere, right. For, for this kind of this kind of fishing. But that that stretch of river up there holds fish right through. So I’ve hooked fish up there in August, you know, way into August. Um, if the water levels are okay, but the fish are there, like they don’t go anywhere. Some of them move up through the pond and into the little tribs. But I think some of those fish probably spawn right where they are. So yeah, it’s one of those. There aren’t many places here where, you know, you could fish it in June successfully and then fish it at the end of August successfully, but Portland Creek would be one of them. 00:44:07 Dave: When you’re on when you have that dry fly, the bomber. Describe that. Are you fishing that any differently than you’d be fishing a blue charm when you’re swinging it? 00:44:14 Stephen: Yeah. Dead drift or well, that’s the one. Again, this is the thing. Like normally you would fish it like you would fish a dry fly for trout, like a dead drift, you know, uh, with a big mend and, and, you know, try and, you know, uh, local guys though will pick up and drop, pick up and drop, pick up and drop. They won’t fish a long stretch with it. They’ll do, you know, kind of. And, and sometimes that provokes the fish. 00:44:34 Dave: Oh, you mean like cast out, let it swing and then pick it up and cast out again, like repeated. 00:44:38 Stephen: Yeah. Like really short, like really short drifts and to a spot like maybe to a rock and just like a two or three foot drift, two or three foot drift and pick it up. The other thing is you can also swing a bomber and the fish will sometimes take one on the swing, even with a bit of a strip to it. You know, you give it a little bit, a couple of tugs, um, because it’s more about provoking a take than the bombers don’t look like anything in nature. Right. So it’s not like they’re, they think they’re eating something. 00:45:02 Dave: Yeah. What’s the take when you see describe that situation where you you’ve got a bomber and the fish, what does it do? What do you see? And then how do you know how to set the hook? 00:45:10 Stephen: You usually you see the nose come right out of the water. Usually. Sometimes you see the mouth open. Sometimes they’ll suck it like a trout, but more often it’s they come up and kind of come down on it. And then it’s kind of a half a beat before you set. So you’ve got to yeah, don’t want to pull the fly out of its mouth. It’s a tricky one for trout fishermen. 00:45:26 Dave: Yeah. Because it’s not a quick trout set. You give it a second. 00:45:29 Stephen: Well yeah. You know how it’s tricky if you go fly saltwater fishing and the guy yells at you, your trout set, it’s not quite like that. But there is a pause that is different than if you were, you know, if you saw trout come and suck a little dry fly down where you you know, you got a it’s a pretty instantaneous reaction here. You kind of kind of almost wait for the fish to take it and go back down and then lift and then, you know, go tight and then, uh, yeah, then off you go. 00:45:53 Dave: But so you got, you got to wait a second. 00:45:55 Stephen: Yeah. But it’s pretty again, like to see one of the, you know, a big fish, like especially a big fish and see the head come out and you know, and salmon will often they might, you know, sometimes it’ll be the first movement. You see, that’s the take. But a lot of times there’ll be a lot of false passes. So you’ll see a fish, it’ll move on the fly and not take it, move on the fly and not take it. Same with a wet fly. And then you sometimes you pause, you know, like the some of the guides would, the deal would be they would, uh, smoke a cigarette and then in that amount of time, let it pause. And then because the fish always go back to their lie. And then so you might move a fish, move a fish, move a fish, and then, you know, if it doesn’t take, then change, fly and change fly. But, you know, every once in a while that you don’t know the fish is, you know, you haven’t seen any sign of it and then bang, off you go. 00:46:35 Dave: That’s cool. So it sounds like you’ve done some, uh, saltwater fishing. Have you chased other species around? Around the country? The world? 00:46:42 Stephen: Yeah. I, um, I’ve done quite a bit of saltwater fishing. I got into it about fifteen years ago, and, uh, I make an annual trip to Belize, which is my kind of go to spot. And, uh, it’s been a couple of weeks fishing down there every year, but I fished Mexico and, uh, and the Bahamas and, uh, little Cayman and, um, so yeah, Jason permit in Belize and, you know, getting a grand Slam and Belize is pretty doable. And, uh, it’s a great fishery. I highly, highly recommend that fishery. 00:47:11 Dave: Have you been able to hook a few permits? 00:47:13 Stephen: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I’ve, uh, I hadn’t hooked any until I started fishing in Belize. I’d, you know, I’d seen a few. And, you know, I had the kind of fire drill you usually have when you’re a bonefish and you see a permit. But yeah, that’s I’ve had, uh, I think I’m up to double digits in permit now and, uh, yeah, we had a great a great trip down there in March. So that’s great. If you want to catch a permit, that’s the place to go. 00:47:32 Dave: Yeah. Where do you go to? I know there’s a bunch of places down there. Do you have one place you go to? 00:47:36 Stephen: Yeah. Placencia is the home. My home base now. So that’s kind of in the middle of the country. And I fished as far south as Punta Gorda, and I fished as far north as Ambergris Key. But yeah, the best approach there would be. Placentia is also a very cool town and a good place to base, but if you can stay out, you can stay out on the reef too. So a place called Tobacco Key, which is a little speck of an island right out on the reef. And if you could find somebody to fish with you there, you’re right there. You know, you could be fishing in five minutes and say a lot of water to fish. Not a lot of boats. Triple crown or Grand Slam opportunity. Pretty much every day. Like not a lot of big migratory tarpon, but there’s lots of tarpon and great snook fishing too. That’s the other thing. Crazy good snook fishing. Yeah. 00:48:17 Dave: What’s the secret on the permit? Did you kind of figure out the code or. I know it’s it’s one of the hardest ones to catch. What was that like for you? Kind of getting. 00:48:24 Speaker 4: That. 00:48:24 Stephen: It’s a really good guide there. Um, who has been, you know, teaching me patiently for the last several years? But yeah, I think learning like they’ll still drive you crazy because they’ll still, you get a lot of turn away still, you know, even if you know what you’re doing. But, um, be learning how to see them. They present differently, you know, than bonefish do. And, uh, and then the strip, the speed of the strip, the pattern of the strip. And, you know, it’s a learning process. Uh, but that is one place, the one place where I’ve been, where you, you know, I guarantee you you’ll see you’ll have shots like you’ll have permit shots. 00:48:55 Dave: That’s sweet. Yeah. We’re going to be going there this, this next year, uh, hopefully if all works out. So we’ve been excited about that. Well, this is good. And then you mentioned, you know, obviously we’ve made this comparison a little bit sports. You have such a background in the sports. Is there any comparison there. You look at what you have going with say hooking a permit or this a big Atlantic salmon versus some of the maybe some of the sports events that are highlights for you is, is it just totally a different not even a comparison. 00:49:21 Stephen: I think it’s fun seeing my all my physical limitations, you know, like all the ways I can, you know, mess up the basic mechanism of throwing a, throwing a line. I think, you know, it reminds me of my very brief life as a golfer when I was a kid where I, you know, and I, you know, I learned to I came to hate golf and I quit when I was like fifteen. 00:49:38 Dave: You didn’t follow golf. You didn’t follow golf with your with your sports. 00:49:41 Stephen: I covered it. I covered it a little bit, but I didn’t play the game. 00:49:45 Dave: It wasn’t your sport. 00:49:46 Stephen: Yeah. But it’s I just, you know that some, you know, sometimes. Yeah. That especially when you’re saltwater fishing up on the bow and, you know, suddenly you got to make a shot and everything kind of comes apart, you know, all of the, all of your coordination and everything comes apart and you look sitting there looking at a pile of bird’s nest and saying, how did I do that? 00:50:03 Dave: Well, that’s what’s great. I think that’s what’s great about the comparison. Yeah. Sports is like that, right? That’s where fly fishing is similar. And in that, you know, you can have that shot at a permit or you can mess it up and you’re just sitting there thinking or you lose the fish, right. Or something like that. Right. You’ve probably had a few of those in your life. That’s similar to sports, right? You’re at the free throw line. You got to make the foul shot and you miss it. 00:50:23 Stephen: Yeah. Except the difference is there’s no bad days fishing like there’s no such thing, right? Like I’ve never had a bad day fishing. I’ve had lots of days where I didn’t catch fish, and I’ve had days when I screwed up. But I’ve never had a bad day. Not one. 00:50:34 Dave: Yeah, I always wonder about that. It’s, uh, it’s kind of cool. I always love making because basketball is my sport. You know, baseball and basketball were my sports. But I love kind of everything, you know? And I feel like it’s always fun. I know there’s the comparisons aren’t really there because sports professional sports is different than, than than fly. There’s there’s professional fly fishing, right. I mean, obviously, you know, this year we’ve got team USA and there’s Team Canada right. That compete. Have you seen any of that stuff or any of the competition? Fly fishing. What’s your take on that? 00:51:01 Stephen: Yeah, and I know some guys who do it. It’s a different man. A different mindset though. Like it really is. Now I’ve fished with some of those guys. Like some of them are amazing too, right? Like they, you know, but yeah, those are the guys who are trying to convince me to start Euro Nymphing back home. 00:51:14 Dave: That’s right. You haven’t tried the Euro yet. 00:51:16 Stephen: I’ve tried it and I hook fish and it just. But it just is not. It doesn’t seem like fly fishing to me. I don’t know it. Chuck and duck, you know, kind of stuff. But it works. It works, man. But yeah, it’s just, you know, I’m intrigued. Like, again, some of those guys are great fishermen and they’re super passionate fishermen and they can do stuff I can’t do, but I can’t imagine it doing as a competition. You know, like it’s, you know, if you’re out on a boat, you want to, you know, like, but the best fish, the best trips where everybody gets something, right? Like you don’t want to be the guy in the boat that has success and the other guy gets nothing. Like that’s a horrible feeling. 00:51:46 Dave: Yeah. You want everybody to have some action, have a good time. And that’s kind of our trip as we’re getting ready for this, we’ve got, you know, a bunch of people from around the country that are going to come together and we’re going to be kind of having this part hanging out, but also trying to hook into a couple fish. Experience what you’ve already experienced. What would be your message for us? We’re getting ready to go out there. What would be your kind of words of advice as we’re getting ready for this, this big trip? 00:52:09 Speaker 5: You know what? This is a unique. 00:52:10 Stephen: Place you’re coming to because this is, you know, it was its own country up until nineteen forty nine. They joined Confederation in nineteen forty nine. And, you know, some of the first Europeans to set foot in North America set foot. Here it is. So it’s you know, like Saint John’s is one of the oldest cities in North America. And culturally it is distinct. You will find that it has a you will hear the accents, the language, you know, it’s it’s we’re isolated here. You know, like if you come here by boat, the closest crossing from Canada to Newfoundland is a seven hour boat ride. And it’s. I say it’s a big, big, huge island and most of the pews are only half a million people live on the whole island. And four hundred thousand of those live in the in Saint John’s. So like the biggest city on this coast where I live is corner Brook, and there’s twenty zero zero zero people there. There isn’t a stoplight north of corner Brook. You won’t see us like you literally won’t see a stoplight while you’re here. So it’s wild. I say untamed and culturally really, really fascinating. And the people are awesome. Like that’s a cliche, but they’re good people. And, um, the fishing is going to be great, but it’s also you’re going to go to one of the most scenic parts of this island and one of the most scenic places in North America. So it’ll, it’ll blow your mind what it looks like. But yeah, spend a little time talk to the guys, you know, get a sense of, you know, what, what people here are like. And I think it’ll be really rewarding. I think you’ll get a kick out of it. It’s more than a fishing trip. 00:53:32 Dave: Yeah. No, it’s I, I’m really loving that. I think that’s, that’s part of what I think about the travel. I think I love about it is that just the experience, even the traveling part of it, right? Getting out there, it’s this whole thing, you know, you’re getting ready for the trip right now. I’m like, okay, what flies do I need to kind of make sure to tie up and, you know, it’s this whole thing and then you got the fishing. Eventually you get to get out on the water and you never know what you’re going to get. I think that’s part of it too, right? The excitement of you never know. It’s kind of this unique thing. So cool. Well, that’s where I think we can leave that there for today. We’re going to be talking more about this, uh, you know, kind of the trip as we go, but maybe let’s get one random, a couple random ones from you. I love the podcast. Obviously, we’re talking on a podcast here, I think. Don’t you have a connection? You’ve been on some podcasts or did was there a writer’s podcast that you were affiliated with? 00:54:17 Stephen: Yeah, I’ve done a bunch of different things. Like I’ve done a bit of hosting and kind of interview ones. Um, I’m involved with, I’m involved with a festival out here that I started, uh, literary and music festival. So we did a couple of podcasts about that. So there’s, you know, that’s very off the beaten track for me. 00:54:32 Dave: Is that the writers at Woody Point? 00:54:33 Stephen: Yeah, that’s our baby here in in Our Town. Yeah. And which is, is a very cool. We’re in our twenty fourth year, twenty third year. Wow. 00:54:42 Dave: And so the podcast has been going for a while. 00:54:45 Stephen: The podcast was kind of about the history of the, of the festival and then some of the writers who are here. But, you know, we have like, you know, for, you know, people like Richard Ford’s coming this year, you know, that’s pretty good. You know, we’ve had some great big time international writers here. And there’s a lot of music involved actually when you get to Newfoundland. The other thing, Music Man is a great it is part of the world. Uh, yeah. There’s a traditional music scene here that’s very unique. And, uh, you’ll, you will encounter that and yeah, I’ve done, I’ve done a few other, you know, kind of some other pods and then I’ve, you know, and I say a lot of, I’m still doing a bit of documentary work now. So I’m working on a big seven parter for the, which is the history of the history of the Toronto Blue Jays. It’s their fiftieth year. So I’m working with the team and with Sportsnet on that right now from from here. 00:55:27 Dave: Oh, cool. So you still have plenty of projects you’re working on. It sounds like you’re going to have more books coming out. Do you expect to write more? 00:55:33 Stephen: I think so, yeah. I think I owe them some, I owe the publisher a couple, so I think I’m contractually obligated. But yeah, I’m trying to figure out what busy is. I want to be is I want to yeah, I want to keep my hand in. I want to keep doing stuff. But when I’m done here, I’m going to go take my dog and go for a hike. I want to be able to do that too. So and I want to be here, you know, away, far away from from the big city and the you know, I want to be here as as long as the weather permits, basically. So interesting stretch of, you know, stage in life, but I’m really, I’m really liking it. 00:56:01 Dave: I love this is totally random, but it’s funny because as we’ve been talking, your voice sounds and I probably sound like other people too, but you sound a little bit like Will Arnett. 00:56:11 Stephen: Well, a fellow Canadian, right? 00:56:12 Dave: Yeah. Fellow Canadian, yeah, I think I don’t know if he’s from the area, but I mean, and a podcaster, he’s got one of the biggest podcasts out there. Smartless. 00:56:19 Stephen: Fantastic. 00:56:20 Dave: Yeah. But but yeah, you’ve got I’m not sure where Will’s from, but I love he’s and actually will. The funny thing is, is Will Arnett, if people haven’t checked this out, there’s a new TV show that came out, it’s called The Madison. And I wasn’t really watching it, but I had a few guests, Mike Lawson, some big names. They said, man, Madison’s great. You gotta watch this. It’s like the, you know, kind of the next river runs through it. And I watched it. I watched the whole thing. And it’s funny thing is, is Will Arnett is on there as the, you know, the shrink. And he has such a funny part. It is hilarious. 00:56:48 Speaker 6: Will Arnett I gotta check. 00:56:49 Dave: Yeah, you gotta check out Will. I think it’s like an episode three or four somewhere. Will comes in and he’s the he’s the doctor and he is just amazing. It’s like, so I think just to get will. But but again, I think it’s kind of cool, right? I think these connections because it’s this small world and, you know, um, obviously I haven’t fished much of eastern Canada. This will be my first time fishing kind of that eastern part of Canada. But I mean, there’s all sorts of places right out there, the fish in Ontario. Is that something that you still have on your list? Lots more of Canada to chase on your fly fishing? 00:57:18 Stephen: Yeah. I haven’t fished in Western Canada much at all, not since I was a kid. But yeah, Eastern Canada, there’s, there’s all kinds of depending on what you, you know, what you want to do, like in terms of salmon fishing, you know, the Gaspé Peninsula in Quebec, you know, the Grand Cascapedia and the Bonaventure and all those famous rivers there. Like that’s that’s a stunning part of the world of fish and the Restigouche and Miramichi in New Brunswick. Huge, crazy striped bass fishing and striper fishing out there now is a big deal there. Like, you know, to the point where you’ll you’d get tired of hooking them. It’s not great for the salmon, unfortunately, but the striper population has boomed. So I did that last year for the first time on a. They had a on a skiff, like a flats boat, and I site cast into stripers. You can do that in Quebec. You can do that in New Brunswick. That’s really that’s way fun on northern Ontario. You’ve got pike and muskie and walleye and all of that kind of stuff. You know, southern Ontario has great trout, you know, resident brook trout, but mostly mostly rainbows and browns and, you know, steelhead in the spring and fall. Um, all within easy driving distance of Toronto, you know, and then there’s the whole western, you know, Alberta BC thing. There’s a whole other world, but you got plenty of options, you know, and then the far north is Labrador has great fishing, you know, the salmon fishing, North Shore and Quebec way up in the Arctic and then the Northwest Territories for, you know, Monster Pike and stuff like that. 00:58:37 Dave: Yeah. Pike I know. Yeah. Well, that’s another one we’re going to be chasing this year out of Saskatchewan. 00:58:42 Stephen: Yeah, that’d be great. Well, you’ll have a blast. And, uh, you know, that’s a like a getting a big pike to take a, you know, a pauper. Pretty cool. 00:58:50 Dave: Yeah. I feel like I feel like the species, you know, I think all fishing is great, all everything’s good. But I feel like when you’re seeing the fish on the surface, those species and those places, you can do that. It feels like that’s like the next level, you know, kind of like we’re talking here. 00:59:02 Stephen: Yeah. I got my first muskie on a fly a couple years ago. And that, which is a challenge, but just for the sheer kind of size and the take, it’s yeah, that’s, that’s a fun one. It’s like, yeah, you know, you got a forty, forty five inch muskie on a, on a fly is quite something. 00:59:17 Dave: Awesome. Well, I think Steve and I want to keep talking about sports with you, but I’ll respect your time here and let you get out of here today. I think we can send everybody maybe remind us where is the best place people can track you down to see some of your books and, and follow up with you on and track you down here because you have a bunch of books, right? You have more books than we talked about a couple, but you’ve got a bunch of books. 00:59:35 Speaker 6: Yeah, I got I got loads of books. 00:59:36 Stephen: They’re all on Amazon, you know, and some of my video work is will be on Sportsnet, their website when this Blu ray stuff kicks in. And, um, and a variety of other, you know, some of the podcast stuff’s all out there in the podcast world. So yeah, it’s all out there somewhere. 00:59:50 Dave: Yeah. We’ll just search your name and we’ll throw in whatever, uh, you know, topic we want and then we’ll, we’ll track you down. So appreciate all the time. Stephen, this has been awesome. And, uh, yeah, let’s, let’s keep in touch. We’ll maybe trade notes later this year after we do the trips and we’ll see how things go. 01:00:03 Stephen: I may see you guys in Portland Creek. So okay. You know. 01:00:05 Dave: That’d be amazing. Oh, there you go. Okay, we’ll catch you then. And thanks again for all your time and we’ll be in touch. 01:00:10 Stephen: Hey. My pleasure. 01:00:12 Dave: All right. Uh, really hope you enjoyed that one with Stephen. If you’re interested in checking in on trips, uh, we’re going to be heading back to Mountain Waters Resort, and we are going during a prime spot. And if you want to get access to that, just check in with me, Dave at web dot com. We’re putting together a trip right now. Rick. We’re going to be mixing up a little spay and a little single handed. So if you’re interested, we’d love to get on the water with you at Mountain Waters Resort. Uh, the best way to do that too, if you want to join Wet Fly Swing Pro, we’ve got another, uh, boot camp coming up, so that’s the best way to join. When that boot camp opens, we open the doors to Wet Fly Swing pro and this is your chance to get access to the community and get first access to all the big trips we got going this year. So support this podcast and join Wet Fly Swing Pro. All right. Uh, we’re off and we’re off to the races. Uh, I really had a fun one there, man. The stories and I can’t we didn’t even touch the surface on what Steven’s covered in his career. Uh, so definitely follow up with him. Pick up some of his books. I’m going to be checking out a number of them that we talked about today. Uh, so I want to thank you again for stopping in today and hope you get a chance to get out on the water and hope you’re having a great, great day. We’ll see you there and we’ll catch you on the next episode. Talk to you then. 01:01:23 Speaker 7: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit Wet Fly swing dot com.
newfoundland atlantic salmon

Conclusion with Newfoundland Atlantic Salmon Fishing

Newfoundland has a way of getting under your skin, and Stephen Brunt explains exactly why. It’s the combination of wild salmon rivers, generous people, rich history, and days spent on the water that keeps bringing anglers back year after year.

Whether you’re planning your first Atlantic salmon trip or simply enjoy hearing great stories from someone who has lived them, this conversation offers a thoughtful look at one of fly fishing’s most special destinations.

     

955 | Tom McGuane: Dean River, Tarpon, Spey, and a Writer’s Journey

Photo via https://news.orvis.com/fly-fishing/podcast-a-life-in-fly-fishing-with-tom-mcguane

Few people have moved between the worlds of literature, fly fishing, film, and Western culture with a front-row seat to all of them.

In this episode, Dave sits down with Tom McGuane to talk about a lifetime of chasing fish, telling stories, and following his curiosity wherever it led. From tarpon in the Florida Keys to decades spent fishing the Dean River, Tom shares the experiences that shaped both his writing and his life.

We covered steelhead, Atlantic salmon, Spey casting, literature, Hollywood, Jimmy Buffett, Jeff Bridges, and what it feels like to keep chasing fish after decades on the water. If you’ve ever wondered what a lifetime devoted to fly fishing looks like, this episode is a master class.

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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Tom McGuane

Show Notes with Tom McGuane on the Dean River, Tarpon, Spey, and a Writer’s Journey

Tom McGuane joins me to look back on a lifetime spent balancing literature and fly fishing. We talk about Montana, California steelhead, Atlantic salmon, tarpon, Spey casting, writing, Hollywood, aging as an angler, and why the pursuit itself matters more than ever.

Montana, Steelhead, and a Lifetime of Fishing

(1:09) Tom still spends plenty of time fishing close to home in Montana. He fishes the Yellowstone, the Boulder River, the spring creeks, and the wade-only section of the Upper Madison. But every year, he’s really waiting for steelhead season.

Over the years, Tom has fished all over the world, thanks in part to writing for Sports Illustrated. Those assignments took him to places like Tierra del Fuego and Russia. He also returns to the Dean River every year, and this season marks his 42nd trip. As he puts it, age has changed how he fishes. He now picks his battles more carefully, choosing rivers that are a little easier to wade while still making time for several steelhead trips each year.

When I ask whether writing or fishing came first, Tom says they grew together. As a young man, he wasn’t interested in spending time indoors. Instead, he wanted to dedicate his life to both literature and fishing.

Looking back, Tom says that’s exactly how his life turned out. Along with family, dogs, and bird hunting, fishing and writing have always been his greatest passions, and that hasn’t changed.

Tom McGuane
Photo via https://outsidebozeman.com/culture/people/calming-the-waters

Tom McGuane’s First Steelhead and a Lifetime Fascination

(5:08) Tom looks back on catching his first steelhead while attending graduate school at Stanford. Growing up as a Midwestern trout angler, discovering California’s steelhead sparked a fascination that has lasted a lifetime.

He reflects on fishing with early California steelheaders like Russ Chatham and Bill Schaadt and remembers hearing stories of massive wild runs that once returned to rivers like the Russian. That leads into a broader conversation about steelhead throughout their incredible range—from tiny California streams like Malibu Creek to the Skeena system, where fish can migrate across the Pacific as far as the Sea of Japan.

Tom also shares his concern for the future of steelhead and other anadromous fish. From California to Norway, he sees many of these fisheries facing growing challenges, making every season on the water feel even more valuable.

Tom McGuane
Photo via https://mtflyfishmag.com/charting-the-waters/

The Early Days of Tarpon Fishing

(8:26) Tom looks back on the early days of tarpon fishing in the Florida Keys, when he and friends like Jim Harrison spent as much time on the water as they could. At one point, Tom says he fished for tarpon more than 100 straight days, chasing fish long before the flats became crowded.

He remembers a very different era, with few skiffs, no cell phones, paper tide tables, and plenty of wrong turns. Learning the fishery meant figuring everything out on your own, and that sense of exploration is one of the things he misses most about those early years.

How Fishing Led Tom McGuane Into Hollywood

(10:34) Tom reflects on how his passion for fishing fueled his writing career and eventually led him to Hollywood. He talks about directing the film 92 in the Shade after unexpectedly replacing Robert Altman just before production—a job he jokes he learned by buying a paperback on how to be a director.

Tom McGuane
Photo via https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/111666/the-sporting-club-by-thomas-mcguane/

We also talk about the realities of the movie business, from projects that can take years to reach the screen to the appeal of “mailbox money” from books and films that continue earning long after they’re released. Tom shares stories about The Sporting Club, his first novel, and why, despite his time in Hollywood, writing has always been the work he cares about most.

Today, Tom says most of his writing is for The New Yorker, though he’s always happy to return to fishing stories when the opportunity comes along.

Watch the 92 in the Shade Trailer on YouTube:

The Language of Fishing

(15:31) One of my favorite parts of this conversation is hearing Tom talk about the language that naturally grows out of fishing. Every community develops its own vocabulary, and fly anglers are no different.

Tom shares a few of his favorites:

  • Yard sale: When a boat flips over and gear washes up on shore.
  • Funky chicken: When someone is trying hard not to fall into the river.
  • Princess Cruise: When someone gives up wading and decides to fish from the boat.

For Tom, fishing is more than catching fish. It’s also about the stories, the people, and the funny words that come from the experience.

Learning from the Great Writers

(17:24) When I asked Tom where his unforgettable descriptions come from, he immediately pointed to the authors who shaped his own writing.

Joseph Conrad taught him that the writer’s first responsibility is to help readers see the scene. If readers can’t picture where they are, smell the river, or feel the place, the story loses its power.

Henry James gave him another rule that’s guided his entire career:

The only rule of literature is that it must be interesting.

Tom says that principle applies just as much to fishing stories as it does to novels. Readers have already seen countless articles about fly selection, leaders, and rigging. The real challenge is making familiar subjects feel fresh again.

Writing lessons from Tom

  1. Let experience drive the story.
  2. Make readers see the place.
  3. Keep every page interesting.
  4. Avoid relying only on technique.
Tom McGuane
Photo via https://mtflyfishmag.com/charting-the-waters/

Tom believes good fishing writing has to offer more than gear lists, fly patterns, and rigging advice. Those topics matter, but they’ve been covered so many times that it’s hard to bring something new to them. For him, the challenge is finding a fresh way to tell the story.

The Longest Silence

(24:48) We switch gears and talk about Atlantic salmon, including one of my favorite stories from Tom’s book, The Longest Silence. It’s about a woman who caught a 50-pound Atlantic salmon after being talked into fishing for just one day. Her son spent the next 50 years trying to catch one himself. On her deathbed, she looked at him and said, “You’ll never get a fifty-pound fish.”

That leads to a conversation about storytelling. I ask Tom how much of his fishing writing is true, and he says the stories come from real experiences, with a little poetic license along the way.

We also talk about writers who influenced him. Tom points to John Gierach’s simple, unpretentious style and Charlie Waterman’s conversational writing as examples of storytelling that still stands the test of time.

Photo via https://www.amazon.com/Longest-Silence-Thomas-McGuane/dp/0525565302

Single-Hand Rods and the Dean River

(30:12) We talk about single-hand rods, Spey rods, and why Tom still enjoys fishing a floating line with a single-hand rod. He says some of his favorite steelhead memories came from skating dry flies, and he believes that style of fishing still has a special place today.

Tom also shares one of the best days he’s ever had on the Dean River. After more than 40 years of fishing there, he and his friends hooked 26 steelhead on dry flies in one afternoon when the river dropped and cleared. He says those days are rare, and most years, landing one fish a day is enough.

Tom also talks about how unpredictable steelhead can be. Some days, anglers miles apart will all start hooking fish at the same time, and no one really knows why. As he puts it:

“Any animal knows more than you do.”

Tom says that’s one of the reasons fishing never gets old. There’s always something left to learn.

(34:20) Tom credits Simon Gawesworth with helping him develop his Spey casting after spending time together in Tierra del Fuego. He eventually wrote the introduction to Simon’s Spey casting book and says that even after decades, the learning never really stops.

Rancho Deluxe, Hollywood, and Jimmy Buffett

(48:40) We talk about Rancho Deluxe and how Tom wrote the screenplay in just two weeks after telling a producer he already had one ready. The film became a cult classic and led to lifelong friendships with actors like Jeff Bridges and Sam Waterston.

We also talk about Jimmy Buffett. Tom says Buffett wasn’t much of an angler when they first met, but he worked hard at it and became a dedicated fly fisherman over the years.

Life in Montana and What Makes Fishing Memorable

(1:09:56) Tom shares how he ended up in Montana after what was supposed to be a short stay. More than 50 years later, he still enjoys the quieter parts of the state.

We also talk about why he’s less interested in chasing the biggest fish these days and more interested in the memorable moments that happen on the water.


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Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
WFS 955 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: Few people have moved between the worlds of literature, fly fishing, film and Western culture with a front row seat to all of them. Today my guest is Tom McGuane, novelist, screenwriter, lifelong angler, and one of the most influential voices ever to write about fishing and American culture. From the Florida Keys and giant Tarpon to four decades on the Dean River, from Hollywood film sets to the pages of The New Yorker. Tom has spent a lifetime following great stories and wild fish wherever they lead. In this episode, we talk about steelhead, Atlantic salmon, spey, casting, righting, aging as an angler, and some unforgettable stories from a life that has touched nearly every corner of the fishing world. And today, Tom shares a bunch of amazing stories about Jimmy Buffett Jeff Bridges. We’re going to talk about the evolution of fly fishing and lessons that only come from decades spent chasing fish and writing about it around the world. This is a really, really big one, and I am very happy to share this conversation with one of the greats. Here we go. Tom McGuane. How you doing, Tom? 00:01:07 Tom: I’m doing well. I’m glad to be here. 00:01:09 Dave: Yeah, I’m really excited for this one. This one. I’ve been thinking about this for many years. We’ve had lots of guests on the show. John Gierach many, you know, other famous writers who’ve talked about you as being a big influence on them. And so I’m excited to hear really just dig into your background. You’ve got so much work out there that’s, you know, has really inspired people around the world. So maybe just start off, you know, where you’re at, what’s going on today, maybe talk physically. Where are you located right now? 00:01:38 Tom: Uh, I’m south of Big Timber, uh, near McLeod, Montana, on the Boulder River. Um, yeah, that’s that’s it, that’s it. 00:01:46 Dave: So you’re on the boulder? Yeah. And so we’re going to be heading out to Montana this year. We’re going to be doing some fishing, uh, probably some Spring Creek fishing, probably some tailwater fishing. What’s in Montana? Do you have a certain type of fishing that you love on the fly, or do you love it all? 00:02:01 Tom: Well, I fished locally a lot. I fished on the Yellowstone and the boulder. Um, I sometimes go over and fish the spring creeks, but I used to live over by the spring creeks when it was free and, and, uh, and nobody was there, hardly anybody. People were fishing there in the late sixties when I first started fishing there. But, uh, then I go over to the upper Madison and fish in the Wade only section. Um, I’m always a little bit treading water until steelhead season, which is a vice a lot of us have. And yeah, we, we get a little bit killing time till we can go do it. Um, but I like any kind of fishing really. Um, but I’m originally a trout fisherman and uh, was for a long time a pretty avid saltwater fisherman. And I fished a lot of places in the world over time. I used to write for Sports Illustrated and they would pay incredible travel expenses. They wouldn’t pay you very much for writing, but you could go anywhere you wanted. So I went to Wild Places, Tierra del Fuego and Russia and places like that on their dime. And, um, uh, but I, you know, I’m old now, so I really have to kind of pick my battles. I’ve been going to the dean for. This will be my forty second year, uh, going to the Dean River. And the only thing I’ve noticed is in the first thirty eight years, I never fell on the river. And the last three years, I’ve fallen in every year. Yeah. But, uh, so, you know, that’s one of the issues. Yvon Chouinard and I are kind of contemporaries, and we we, uh, we have to pick where we fish now. I mean, there are a lot of things that are hard for me to do anymore. Just like the Boulder River is just brutal for wading, especially later in the season when the rocks get slippery. And. Yeah. So, um, that’s kind of it now, um, I’ll make a lot of steelhead trips this year. Probably three or four of them. 00:04:01 Dave: That’s awesome. No, I’m excited to hear more about the steelhead. I think that’s something that, you know, I’ve loved my entire life. We’ve got a lot of listeners that love steelhead fishing. And I want to hear about your kind of maybe your journey with Spey and all that stuff. But before we get into on steelhead, I want to hear just take us back, maybe way back to, you know, you’ve got all the, the writing we could talk for, you know, about all the books and everything and all the inspiration, like I said, but was it writing or was it fly fishing that came first for you or were they, you. 00:04:28 Tom: Know, I think they came simultaneously, or at least fishing and writing. I was sort of a terrible student. I didn’t want to be indoors. And I early on really wanted to dedicate myself to either literature or fishing, both at the same time, I hoped. And now that I can look back on many birthdays, um, I think I’m pretty happy. The fact that that’s what I’ve done with my life. I’ve fished and written. Yeah. You know, apart from the main things, you know, family life and dog life and bird hunting and all those other things that you can do. But those have been my passions and that hasn’t changed. 00:05:08 Dave: And you’ve been, like you said, you know, we all get older and things change and you evolve and you’re fly fishing, but you know, steelhead maybe take us there. When was that for you? When was your do you remember your first steelhead? 00:05:18 Tom: Uh, strangely enough, I caught my, I was a graduate student at Stanford back in the sixties. And, um, so I started figuring out what you could do in California because that was a Midwestern trout fisherman. And, uh, but the first deal had I caught, I caught in Big Sur Creek, um, which is kind of an unusual place to catch. 00:05:40 Dave: Right. 00:05:41 Tom: And in fact, I think that set off my fascination with the range of steelhead and how they almost go down to northern Mexico and The Arctic that some of the fish that we fished for in the Skeena system have been in the Sea of Japan that summer, and the romance of it really kind of caught me. And then. Then I was a friend of early California, Steelheaders Russ Chatham and Bill Shad and I fished with both of those guys. I think the steelhead fishing was really waning in California at that time. And, you know, the days when the Russian had thirty five thousand wild fish in the annual run. That’s my friend Russ Chatham, for example. That’s what he remembered from his high school years, was these runs that were sort of Skeena sized runs, basically in a California suburb. Then I went down, and not too long ago I went down, um, to, uh, what is that little river that feeds the water supply of Santa Barbara? 00:06:46 Dave: Oh, gosh. 00:06:47 Tom: Huh? 00:06:47 Dave: I’m not sure. 00:06:49 Tom: Um. uh, I’m trying to think of it, but they had a run of twenty eight thousand fish and three species and, you know, until pretty recently, uh, you know, all those wild steelhead going up through the California oaks. I mean, that’s fascinating. Yeah. Malibu creek, you know, where the. 00:07:05 Dave: Yeah. 00:07:06 Tom: Little, little chunky steelhead come in and spawn and shoot out of there. 00:07:10 Dave: Jeez. 00:07:11 Tom: Fifty or sixty fish in the run. So I remember when I was in Russia, a couple of the guides, the guides were mostly Montana guys at that time, and one of them was determined to give his life to steelhead fishing after his or during his guiding career. I remember an old time, uh, Atlantic salmon fisherman who was there. He was actually from the west coast of the US. Said to him when he when this kid poured out his passion for steelhead, he said, you’re a day late and you’re a dollar short. 00:07:45 Dave: Ah. 00:07:46 Tom: And, uh, you know, it hasn’t quite come to that. But everywhere in the world, we’re seeing these anadromous fish imperiled. Really? I was in Norway a year ago, and they’re worried now. You know, they’re deferring to salmon farms and oil. Um, lots of other things. So I, you know, you kind of feel like you’re racing time if you like to fish for steelhead. 00:08:11 Dave: Yeah. 00:08:12 Tom: And, uh, you know, I’m, I have an old friend who, whenever he brings up his rods, says, I thank God I’m not a day under eighty. 00:08:21 Dave: Right. 00:08:23 Tom: In some ways, I feel that a little bit myself. 00:08:26 Dave: I hear you, yeah. You guys were. You went through a time not only a steelhead, but some of those other species, like the saltwater, right? You go back to those days with that. You wrote about a lot, those crazy times, right? Talk about that. Now you’re sitting here, you know, you’re later in life versus, you know, your fifties, sixties, 70s 80s versus say that time when you were you describe that. What was that period when you guys were out there fishing for tarpon? And it was kind of a Jimmy Buffett and all the gang. 00:08:51 Tom: Yeah. And my friend, my old friend Jim Harrison. 00:08:55 Dave: Yeah. Jim Harrison. Yeah. 00:08:56 Tom: Yeah. The, uh. Well, that was great. I mean, we had really cut the moorings. We were living like dogs. We were doing everything, um, to be able to fish. And we really kind of overdid it in a way. I mean, uh, I had two or three years where I tarpon fished for at least one hundred days in a row. Um, and we had a kind of a little bit of a virgin opportunity there too. They were the fishing wasn’t pounded quite like it is now. There weren’t skiffs all over. I had a skiff, uh, poling skiff in Key West. It was the only one in town. There’s probably a hundred of them now. Um, and, uh, there are even places to dump old skiffs. 00:09:40 Dave: Oh, right. Uh, yeah. 00:09:42 Tom: Uh, you know, it was great. It was great for several reasons. First of all, we didn’t know what we were doing. Um, there were no cell phones, uh, didn’t have stainless steel props. So if you hit a coral head, you were going to sleep out that night. Um, you couldn’t call anybody for help? Uh, we didn’t have online. Uh, what do you call it? Tide tables. 00:10:05 Dave: Oh, right. All the tides, right. 00:10:06 Tom: These government tide tables and convert from Port of Miami all the way down to the lower keys and figure out what the difference between the Gulf of Mexico and the Oceanside were, because those were tide, tide change times. You had to figure it out. And then we were often lost. I mean, uh, just lost. Um, but you had to be young in doing that, trying to figure it out and finding your way through unknown territory was a wonderful experience. 00:10:34 Dave: Yeah. And you wrote a lot. I mean, maybe describe that those times. I mean, a lot of work came from that. I mean, the movies, um, you know, the um one of the biggest one was the ninety two in the shade, right. I mean, that was kind of this, that movie, but a lot of different things came out of that. How did, how did that era kind of, um, start, you know, evolve your writing? You know, were you already how did it and does it still influence you today when you think about that whole era? 00:11:02 Tom: Well, I think the lesson was, I mean, I was so passionate about what I was doing. And a lot of that writing was fueled by that passion and going through my life subsequently and trying to rediscover that kind of, uh, fire for writing or doing things in writing about it. Um, that that has been the challenge. I mean, to feel that strongly about something. And then there was always the, uh, the tug between kind of things, which are frankly, recreational and things that are professional and based on making a living. Well, I grew up in a town that didn’t have a movie theater, so the fact that I ended up in the movie business for about ten or twelve years, I still don’t watch movies. I never have. 00:11:50 Dave: Really? 00:11:51 Tom: Yeah. I don’t even watch television. So the fact that I had to sort of tread water until I understood how to movies were made. 00:11:59 Dave: And you were kind of thrown into it. Right? You directed that movie? 00:12:02 Tom: Yeah, I did, um, the producer and the, and the original director, Robert Altman, had a falling out just almost as we were ready to start the movie. And it was already financed. Everything was done, the sites were scouted. And, uh, so the producer turned to me and said, guess what? You’re the director. So I went down and bought a, I think I went down about a paperback, how to be a director. And then I got one of those little things that directors look through, you know. All right. And no directors use them, actually. But I had one want to go around town looking at things through my my little scope, but it turns out it’s not as hard as it looks. It’s not as hard as writing. 00:12:49 Dave: Oh, really? Wow. 00:12:50 Tom: Yeah. It’s just, you know, it’s logistically a lot of trouble. You know, you want to shoot one day and somebody’s house and the next day you have to shoot in the city jail. And a lot of preparations going to laying down plywood track for the cameras. Everything is so slow. Yeah. Um, or even getting to the point where you’re actually making a movie. I know, uh, uh, Harrison’s movie, uh, legends of the fall. Yeah. We were so excited because he needed some money and he sold the project, so we got one payment for the initial sale. The rest would come after the movie was made, and they made it fourteen years later. 00:13:30 Dave: Wow. 00:13:30 Tom: And that’s kind of normal. So it has a way of chewing up your life. And I didn’t like the town. I didn’t like the job, really, but I had to do it because I couldn’t make a living. 00:13:42 Dave: Right? That was it. And that movie was. How would you describe that movie? I mean, I think maybe a cult classic might be something. What would you. Because it wasn’t like a giant blockbuster film. But I mean, you had Peter Fonda. I mean, you had a bunch of great, amazing actors. 00:13:58 Tom: Yeah. No, it just it’s gone on to be it’s never stopped playing. Mhm. You know, those of us who ever had these jobs are focused on what we call mailbox money. And so, you know, you might go to the mailbox and says they just played, uh, ninety two in the shade in Czechoslovakia. Here’s your here’s your twenty five dollars thirty one cents. Yeah. Um, so that’s important. And, uh, and that’s across the board for, uh, writing. I mean, my, um, my first book came out in nineteen sixty nine and it’s still in print and, you know, none of them make a lot, a lot of money. But the accumulation of being a survivor is is significant. 00:14:41 Dave: What was that first book in sixty nine? 00:14:43 Tom: Uh, the sporting club. 00:14:45 Dave: The sporting club. Okay. 00:14:46 Tom: And that was made into a movie. That was yeah, a terrible movie. 00:14:50 Dave: Really? What was the was that the movie? What was the name of the movie? 00:14:54 Tom: It was, uh, I can’t I’m trying to remember who Ali MacGraw was it Ali MacGraw? 00:14:59 Dave: Okay, this is great. We’re gonna track these down, and I’m going to have a whole movie series of movies we’ll be watching. 00:15:04 Tom: Okay. Um, but, uh, that was just a portion of my writing life. As I look back on it now. I mean, I’d been very committed to what is now called literary fiction. And all I do now really is write for the New Yorker magazine. Uh, and I’ve recently renewed my contract with them. So that’s what I’ll be doing unless I write about fishing. 00:15:26 Dave: Okay, so that’s different. The fishing is if you get out and do some fishing, you’re still going to write about that? 00:15:31 Tom: Potentially, yes. Because something will Well, really, I was thinking today, you know, because I’m a language buff, you know. Yeah. I was thinking today of all the kind of funny language that comes out of the fishing world. And one of the ones that I was chuckling about recently was, uh, you know, when a boat turns over and all the stuff goes out of it and drifts up on the shore, that’s called a yard sale. 00:15:56 Dave: Exactly. I’ve been there. I’ve been in a yard sale. 00:15:58 Tom: I know you have. Yeah, I’ve heard you talk about that. 00:16:01 Dave: Right. 00:16:02 Tom: Then the other one I like is when a guy’s out in the river struggling to keep from falling in the river, and he’s making a lot of wild gestures. That’s called the funky chicken. 00:16:12 Dave: Oh, the funky chicken. 00:16:14 Tom: And then if somebody says, I really can’t wait anymore, I’m going to fish from the boat. That’s called the Princess Cruise. 00:16:22 Dave: Nice. I love it. 00:16:23 Tom: So anyway, uh, fishing, like any other passionate thing, especially when it’s involving other people, is a great generator of original language and usually comic. 00:16:36 Dave: And you’re the master. I mean, really of this. And this is what people. John Gierach, I think mentioned this first time when he was on. But you’re the master of this actually telling writing where you’re actually seeing a picture instead of just telling somebody like John, I think he mentioned, I can’t remember what book it came from with you, but he talked about this book where you were talking about somebody who was, and I’ve used this before, I’ve told this many times on the podcast, but where you’re, you’re describing somebody pointing a gun or his finger was so bent, you know, his finger was so bent that it was like when he pointed the gun, it was like, if he was to point a gun at you and shoot, pull the trigger, it would shoot you in the foot. His finger was so bent, you know, I mean, I don’t know, I think that might have been you, but, you know, again, that’s what you’re the master of. And another one, I mean, all these books, the longest silence. You know, it’s just like tons of that sort of stuff. Where does that come from? Have you always had that? Have you developed that? 00:17:24 Tom: Uh, well, you know, I’ve been a reader, big reader all my life. And one of the lessons that I, a couple of lessons that I got from the great masters. Joseph Conrad always said, the most important thing you can do is make people see. In other words, when you write a fishing story, it shouldn’t be very. Such an elevated level that people don’t know where they are physically. So I’ve always made an effort to make the reader understand what it felt like or looked like or smelled like to be there. And so that I probably stole that from Conrad. Okay. And then Henry James had a rule, which I’ve also tried to follow. And you have to do this inch by inch. And that rule is the only rule of literature is it must be interesting. And if it’s interesting, everything else is okay. And that’s a fine line and a lot of things. You know, you sometimes you read something that’s great and you just say to yourself, I see that this is great, but it’s just not interesting. Mhm. That’s a division in any kind of writing, including fishing, writing that, uh, I’d like to follow and I think is a kind of a universal rule. 00:18:39 Dave: So it can be, it can be writing can be great, but not interesting. 00:18:43 Tom: Yeah. Well, no, not really. But that’s the you can see that’s also the subjective. So the person could read, let’s say. 00:18:52 Dave: Write. 00:18:53 Tom: Dostoyevsky and say I’d see this as wonderful. But to me it’s not interesting. Gotcha. Fishing, writing. You have especially you have a kind of a challenge to rise above the usual tropes, which are things like, you know, rigging, flight selection, um, all those. I’m fascinated by all those things, but, you know, that’s been done so much. It’s hard to do that with freshness. 00:19:17 Dave: Right. It’s been done when you write like, let’s just take the longest silence. That’s one of your people talk about that a lot just because you covered so much amazing fishing. Um, when you’re writing that. Are you thinking of, um, you know, like tips and tricks or does that just come out in your writing, you know, because you definitely provide some tips and things along the way. Is that something you’re really thinking about? 00:19:38 Tom: Yeah, I do. I mean, you know, we’ll probably get around to casting and Spey casting and stuff like that, but, uh, one of the unusual things about fly fishing in any form is the casting itself is so much fun, and it can kind of get away from you in that you get to be so casting focused, you’ve kind of forgotten about fishing. And that’s become, uh, elaborate in the age of Spey casting. Yeah. Which I’ve been doing for thirty years now and I never get to the bottom of it. Um, and, uh, it’s a beautiful thing to do to be able to do and you’re never get to the end of it. There’s always something you could do to tweak it. And so there’s a little bit of a conflict between that passion for casting and fishing you can get so that you’re just trying to empty the reel and hear the hear the snaps when it gets to the end of the cast. And you know, you’re maybe not even looking at the river, looking at the divots. And little seams and bubble lines and stuff. Supposed to be watching. God, I remember, I think it was Tim Rajeff told me this story that, uh, when they were fanatical casters at Golden Gate, uh, just to prove to themselves that they were still fishermen, they would go up to the rogue and fish for one day a year and then go back to the casting ponds. That was not always true. And both Steve and Tim were avid fishermen. But at some point, they were so obsessed with casting, they didn’t fish. 00:21:10 Dave: Right? That’s definitely true. Yeah. And there’s a mix of that because we’ve interviewed a lot of casting instructors, and I think there’s a lot a lot of them are guides. You know, definitely there’s a mix of people out there. But yeah, I mean, Tim and Steve, I mean, they’re Steve’s probably the greatest right ever. And and Tim’s right there and probably would have been if he would have put more time. 00:21:28 Tom: Yeah. I mean, Steve is a guy that’s, you know, a real mono focused guy. And Tim’s interested in a lot of other stuff. 00:21:36 Dave: Yeah. Yeah. And he’s done great with echo. I mean, that’s the great thing about echo. It’s one of those brands. I mean, they actually they probably started about when you got going in space, you know, with Sp-a back then thirty years ago. But it’s just a great brand. You know, they built this rod, which you know, and they know it. You can’t have everything. You can’t have the fastest, most durable, you know, all that. But they pick durability as one of their big things. And a lot of people say, and the price, the price point do you have you’ve used everything, right? 00:22:03 Tom: Good rods too. 00:22:04 Dave: Yeah, they’re good and they’re good rods. 00:22:05 Tom: Yeah. And I listen to Tim’s podcast with you. 00:22:09 Dave: Yeah. 00:22:09 Tom: And I was in awe of how thoroughly he thought the whole thing out. I know he’s not just, you know, getting on a CAD cam machine and send the drawings to Korea, right. Uh, he really thinks. I mean, all these things are trade offs. I’m trying to find a balance, uh, in something that’s as malleable as a spey rod. You know, it’s a tough job. 00:22:34 Dave: When it comes to high quality flies that truly elevate your fly fishing game. Drift hook dot com is a trusted source you need. I’ve been using drift hooks expertly selected flies for a while now, and they never disappoint. Plus they stand behind their products with a money back guarantee. Are you ready to upgrade your fly box? 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I think in that book you had a a chapter in there that was talking about Atlantic salmon fishing. I can’t remember if it was Iceland somewhere over there. But you had this story about a lady who was caught, this fifty pound fish, fifty pound Atlantic salmon. And on her deathbed, she basically said something like, her son was there. She said, and you will never catch a fifty pound fish and then died. Yeah. Now that was. 00:24:48 Tom: Was that two things about that one. Uh, she didn’t want to fish. 00:24:52 Dave: Yeah. She didn’t want to fish. 00:24:54 Tom: They asked her to fish for one day. And then he spent the next half century trying to catch a fifty pound fish. 00:25:00 Dave: Right. 00:25:01 Tom: Uh, and then, yeah, on her deathbed, she looked at him and said, you’ll never get a fifty pound. 00:25:06 Dave: I mean, that’s so I was cracking up. And now, is that a true story? And is all your fishing? Is it pretty much all, you know, true stuff. Yeah. Describe that. 00:25:15 Tom: Yeah, I think it is. I mean, yeah, I don’t know how much embellishing you do. Um, all these things are artifacts in that you kind of created things. So there’s, I’m sure there’s some poetic license that goes into them. Some people like John Gierach, for example, just had such a natural American prose style. Um, it’s so unpretentious and yet, uh, profound. Um, that’s a very difficult thing to do. Uh, partly because, uh, like a lot of other things that are well done, it doesn’t, you don’t see it on the surface. There’s nothing flashy about it. So it was a kind of a model of genuine writing, uh, kind of like Charlie Waterman. Do you remember Charlie Waterman? 00:26:03 Dave: Yeah, yeah, a little bit, yeah, yeah. 00:26:05 Tom: He wrote wonderful stuff. And it was always in that kind of colloquial style. 00:26:10 Dave: Yeah, yeah. That’s great. You know, another writer, I River Horst Nakadate, he just, uh, book from with Patagonia is coming out and I think it’s his I think it might be his first book, but he was describing some of his influences. And we talked a little bit about some different writers, but he mentioned, you know, going back to Leopold and, you know, some of these really natural naturalists and kind of conservation focused writers. Right. Did you have a lot of those writers when you were that were influencing you back throughout the your career? 00:26:40 Tom: Probably, yes, a lot of them and I read a lot of natural history and stuff like that, and I’m pretty focused on that. And I knew Roderick Haig-brown. 00:26:49 Dave: Right. 00:26:49 Tom: And I wrote a little piece about him. I stayed in touch with him a little bit. In fact, I’m looking over here. I have some of his books that he signed for me. 00:26:56 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:26:57 Tom: He was kind of, from my standpoint, was kind of the perfect mix of a kind of a cultivated, literate person who was very passionate about fishing, but had a wide range of influences on his own work. Plus his, uh, life was so involved in reality, you know, as a as a magistrate in Canada. So that he was a kind of a high watermark for me in terms of the kind of stuff I love to love to aspire to. But there are others I really liked a lot of the English, uh, trout fishing books. Um, they were a little bit more experience oriented and a little bit less, uh, technique oriented. I mean, I’ve been drawn in both directions. I mean, I, uh, one time I was talking to Lefty Cray and we were talking about rigging and why rigging is so much fun. And it’s like fly tying. I mean, you’re there and you’re sort of fantasizing what’s going to happen when you deploy this rig or you deploy this fly. And it’s, it’s a kind of a way of invoking your imagination about when you finally get to the water with this thing. But you know, it’s going to work, but you’re snowed in. Yeah. Flies or, you know, rigging the tarpon leaders, you know, tying shock tippets. Even though it’s blowing forty and it’s cold. 00:28:24 Dave: I know there’s that part of and I love it the getting ready for the trip. You know, that’s, you know, like right now where they got this Atlantic salmon trip. And we’re like, man, just getting ready and, and looking at the weather and, and, you know, that there’s a chance that the river could be out. I mean, you never know. Right? I mean, you’ve probably had a few of those trips over the years, some of those big trips I have. 00:28:43 Tom: But I’m very interested in what you say about getting ready because, yeah, I’m sort of notorious for overdoing that. 00:28:50 Dave: You are. 00:28:51 Tom: Yeah. I mean, somebody said to me, you know, how soon for your before your trip do you start packing? I said, probably six weeks. Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, I just that’s part of the, the pleasure of it is. Chris. 00:29:07 Dave: Yeah. 00:29:08 Tom: And then it can get very complicated, you know, back in the day when you know the new graphite single handed rods would all take three line sizes if you pushed them. Now, in the age of Spey casting, I don’t know how many different lines they can take, but you can tear your hair out trying to figure out whether you want to fish a Skagit or a Skagit hybrid or, um, you know. 00:29:32 Dave: Or Scandi or. 00:29:34 Tom: Or or Scandi, but or, you know, or the one there’s now all these little blurred edges between the different kinds of lines. 00:29:40 Dave: God, you know, what I love about this is that, uh, you know, as I go. It’s so cool to have you on here because there’s been a lot of guests and probably lots that I haven’t had on yet that I’ve thought about it. You know, John Hazel is one of those guys. He’s the Deschutes River angler fly shop, and he was a big part of that Spey evolution, especially kind of in Oregon. And he talked about, you know, that whole his whole journey of how they came, you know, how he kind of brought some of those in. But he said it was interesting because he was like, you know what, I still like casting a single handed rod for steelhead and I still will do it, you know? So he’s not like, you know, and it sounds like you’re kind of the same way. 00:30:12 Tom: Well, you know, I as I say, I’ve been going to the dean for over forty years and I would say the first twenty, or at least maybe the only fifteen, we fished, everybody fished the same way. They fished a single hand, nine foot eight weight rod with a floating line. And you know, your, uh, steelhead caddis or your muddler, you know, or maybe you fished damp, you know, and then you right now I’ll fish two inches under the surface. And in those days, I mean, um, you know, the rivers were relatively undisturbed, but, you know, a fish a day was a nice day. I mean, we didn’t think in terms of bonanzas, uh, but a fish caught on a single handed rod on a skating fly. I mean, that’s worth thinking about for a year. 00:31:00 Dave: Yeah. 00:31:01 Tom: I mean, that makes a year in a way. Yeah. So, uh, I think we missed something getting away from single handed rods. Mhm. Especially, you know, now I don’t I understand. I’ll bring I’ll fish. I’ll bring two rods in the boat. One will be have a floating line on it and one will have a sink tip. But I don’t know why. I don’t have a single handed rod for the floating line. And then just a spey rod for the sink tip rod. 00:31:26 Dave: Right. 00:31:27 Tom: Uh, you know, you’re not. If you’re properly fishing a floating fly, you shouldn’t be casting very far anyway. 00:31:33 Dave: No. Yeah, that’s exactly what John said. He’s like, man, most of those fish are caught within thirty feet of the bank and, you know, right in close. Yeah, yeah. Is that the is the dean? I haven’t fished the dean yet. Is that the same way in the dean. Is it a fish caught in. 00:31:46 Tom: I mean it Dean can be very tough. Uh, fishing. I mean it’s great. It’s probably the best steelhead river there is at this point in time. But I was fishing there last year and out of a forty two years, last year was the best year we ever had. 00:32:03 Dave: No kidding. 00:32:04 Tom: And I was I was with Huey Lewis. And the river gets low and clear. And Huey and I went up to the top of the river and get this. And there was another guy from an environmentalist from BC who was with us in a very good fisherman. The three of us hooked on dry flies. Twenty six steelhead and one afternoon. 00:32:29 Dave: Wow. One afternoon. 00:32:30 Tom: Yeah. And I remember lots of years when I was just really would like to get one fish a day. 00:32:38 Dave: Yeah. 00:32:39 Tom: And so what we had was absolutely abnormal. But the river dropped, it got super clear. And. 00:32:44 Dave: And so the conditions were perfect. 00:32:47 Tom: They were just nailed it. And the mysterious thing about those rivers, the dean especially, is you can be fishing for a couple of days. Nobody hooks up and then everybody hooks up and then you call way downriver, twenty miles down the walkie talkie. And they said, why are you guys doing this? Oh, we all just hooked up. 00:33:07 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:33:08 Tom: Standing around for two days with. 00:33:10 Dave: No kidding. So twenty miles down. Yeah, they’re hooking up and you’re hooking up at the same time. 00:33:17 Tom: The same minute. 00:33:17 Dave: Yeah. That’s something that’s not just. Yeah. Because you think runs are coming in and maybe there’s hot spots throughout the river, but this is like at one point. 00:33:24 Tom: Yeah. It’s just it has something to do that we don’t understand. You know, there’s a Native American saying, which I cling to lately, which is any animal knows more than you do. 00:33:38 Dave: Yeah, that’s totally true. 00:33:40 Tom: Yeah. And so we think we know a lot about fish. We don’t really know enough, but. 00:33:46 Dave: Right. And that’s what makes it amazing. That’s what we love, right? We love that that we know we will never figure it out. 00:33:52 Tom: Yeah. And that’s the part of the drive. 00:33:54 Dave: Yeah. 00:33:55 Tom: Part of the drive is, you know, who wants to dedicate themselves to some sort of activity where you really can get to the end of it, right? Um, we’re never, we’re never going to get to the end of this with this one. We’re not even going to get to the end of the casting, which is no, that’s part A. 00:34:13 Dave: And you’re casting. Let’s hear about that casting because I think didn’t didn’t you get some good instruction early on? Was it Simon Bosworth that helped? 00:34:20 Tom: Yes. And I was um, I just told somebody about this. But anyway, so I was down in Tierra del Fuego. Simon was there and we got there was some kind of glitch. Anyway, the, the group that was coming after us cancelled. And so we got to stay on for free. And um, Simon was, he was, had been guiding I think, but he was just kind of running the camp at that point and um, he still had his big old huge tournament rod and he was carrying it around. 00:34:52 Dave: Oh yeah. 00:34:52 Tom: And, but anyway, I do remember I had one of those old four piece, ninety one, forty five brown sages remember those? 00:35:02 Dave: Yeah. 00:35:03 Tom: And I said I was in love with it. Yeah. And I said to Simon, I said, you got to try this, rod. And, and so he went on, he made a few casts and he said, he said, I see why everyone loves it. I hate it. 00:35:18 Dave: Yeah. 00:35:19 Tom: And, uh, but anyway, he, he gave me some kind of stuff to get going. I’d been trying to do it for a year or two on my own. 00:35:29 Dave: Just on your own? Just how were you doing that? Were you were you reading? Were you watching? How were you teaching yourself? 00:35:34 Tom: Probably a little of both. And I would be down at the river over again and making a fool of myself. And, um, we all had those, um, those old reel lines. Those were those lines, fifty four foot line. Um. 00:35:47 Dave: Oh yeah. Yeah. The. Yeah. The wing cutter. 00:35:49 Tom: Wing cutter. Yeah. 00:35:50 Dave: Yeah. The wing cutter. Yeah. 00:35:52 Tom: That was the first line. That really kind of yeah. Was a complete line for Spey fishing. It’s still not a bad line. I had one out the other day, but, uh. So anyway, I got some good tips from Simon, and we stayed in touch a little bit afterwards. And then I wrote the introduction to his Spey casting book. Um, and yeah, it’s all of us who do it know that it’s always in danger of becoming an infatuation. 00:36:17 Dave: Yeah. 00:36:18 Tom: I had a neighbor here who was really caught up in it. Uh, and I read it. He died last year. I read his obituary, and his wife said in the obituary that she’ll really miss him out in the backyard practicing his Spey casting. Gosh, I know. 00:36:35 Dave: Yeah, I know, yeah. And I’m the same. I mean, I definitely have so much work to do with the Spey. You know, it’s sometimes I and there’s these great casters. So sometimes you’re out there like, oh man, I should be at a higher level and I should be practicing more. But you know, we just never have enough time. It seems like. Right. 00:36:51 Tom: I’ve kind of simplified it a little bit. I mean, at one point I wanted to do everything from snake rolls to whatever, but not a single Spey on either side of my body. Yeah. 00:37:01 Dave: Simplify it. 00:37:02 Tom: That single Spey for everything. Off shoulder and on shoulder. 00:37:06 Dave: That’s exactly what John said. Hazel. He was like, man, you know, we’re talking Deschutes Dean these summer steelhead type rivers, right? I mean, you really just have those. There’s a couple casts you need the snake roll go off both shoulders and you know, all the snap stuff he was saying, like all that snap t stuff and circle. I mean, I use it all the time, but they created that because they didn’t know how to cast. Right. That’s back in the day. That’s why it was created. 00:37:27 Tom: Yeah. The single space is a tough cast for people to learn because it’s so timing critical. Um, I think you could get by with, if you could, with a single Spey and you probably need the Perry Polk. 00:37:41 Dave: Perry Polk. Yeah. 00:37:43 Tom: That’s, I mean, it’s just, it’s kind of an ugly thing, but there are places where you have to do it. Yeah. I mean, just to get your stick out there in front of you. 00:37:51 Dave: Exactly. What are you what are you working on? So you said now. So you don’t have necessarily a book that you’re thinking about in the future or looking ahead. 00:38:00 Tom: Uh, nothing really. I’ve been, um, I published a book this past year, uh, collection of stories that were mostly published in the New Yorker or the Paris Review, maybe any of these kind of highbrow literary places. Yeah. And none of my friends can read this stuff, but none of my friends can read it. But, uh, that’s really all I’m doing. I mean, I’m just trying to stay in shape so I can fish longer. Um, you know, I’m an octogenarian now, and that’s. I mean, nobody in my family has ever been an octogenarian going back several generations. Um, so I’m really striving to be fit enough to keep doing this. Um, a friend of mine, Tony Steller fish till he was ninety five, he was fishing the dean, but he was, but that’s another example. He was a fantastic spey caster. So by the time he lost his ability to do a lot of deep waiting. 00:38:58 Dave: Yeah, that’s where the Spey is nice though, right? Like the older you get you, you know, I remember when I was a kid casting the single hand rod with the wind and thinking, man, this is so much work, right? This makes it a little bit easier. 00:39:10 Tom: Oh, no question about it. Especially if you stay kind of in the box, you know, and don’t. Yeah, you can get it down to some pretty minimal physical motions to get good fishing casts. 00:39:22 Dave: Yeah, it’s been awesome. I’ve interviewed a number of ninety year old, you know, Frank Moore was one of the people, you know, he was I think he was in his mid nineties. And I mean, we were in person. I remember shaking his hand and I mean, he literally like almost crushed my hand. He was so strong. You know what I mean? Like that guy was just so I think I think really there’s a lot it’s that staying active. I, I do think, you know, my dad is a good example of somebody who didn’t take care of himself as much, although he was like a high level athlete, very, you know, very. But alcohol got him, you know, he really he really never figured the alcohol thing out. You know, he really never quit. And I feel like that’s something for even me now. I’m in my early fifties and I’m sitting here thinking like, you know, this is probably not something I have to do forever. What are your thoughts on that? Because you made that choice at some point, right? 00:40:07 Tom: I did. I gave up drinking altogether, um, in eighty one or eighty two. So it’s been forty years or more. 00:40:15 Dave: There you go. 00:40:16 Tom: And I had a lot of wild friends. Jim Harris and Gable Dean and Jimmy Buffett. Uh, and they’re all dead. 00:40:25 Dave: Yeah. 00:40:25 Tom: That’s the one thing they have in common, but. 00:40:27 Dave: Right. 00:40:28 Tom: Jimmy. Jimmy’s was a kind of a freakish thing because he had a, uh, a cancer. Skin cancer. 00:40:35 Dave: Oh. 00:40:35 Tom: But, I mean, look at the other guys. I mean, they didn’t need to do that. I mean, they had wet brain by the time they were sixty five and. 00:40:42 Dave: Yeah. 00:40:42 Tom: And I’m the sun. I am the child of alcoholics. So I, when I got to, um, the got to be around forty years old. And I was thinking, you know, in the afternoon. Thinking, you know, how much longer before I can have a cocktail? 00:40:56 Dave: Right. 00:40:57 Tom: I thought, no, this is not what I want to be doing. 00:41:00 Dave: Yeah. That’s it. You made a choice and that’s cool. You made that choice. And. Kind of like. I mean, the way I am, I’m I’m a like all or nothing sort of. Thing. That’s kind of my personality. I have that addictive personality. So I feel like I got to either just cold turkey quit it or, you know, that’s kind of is that kind of the way you are too? Is that. Yeah. 00:41:17 Tom: Absolutely. I mean, I wasn’t what you would call a bender kind of a drinker. I just would kind of wanted to throw the cork away though, you know, from this we’re here to do it. You know, that’s what they what’s interesting in Scandinavia, um where I’ve been a few times, they, they, uh, you know, you’re going to go to jail for a DUI. 00:41:38 Dave: Oh right. 00:41:39 Tom: That’s that you get a DUI. So they, they leave the house with a driving plan. Somebody’s going to be the driver because they leave the house intending to get drunk. 00:41:53 Dave: Right. 00:41:54 Tom: And but they’re covered because they’re not going to drive. Yeah. And we’ve never figured that one out. 00:42:00 Dave: No, no we haven’t. I know. Yeah. It’s still a problem. And and like I said, my dad now is in his, uh, you know, eighty seven, eighty eight and he’s struggling. And I, I think about it like, man, if he would have not done what he did, I might have ten more years, maybe more good years with him, right. Of fishing because there was a period of time, fifteen years where he, you know, it was always he was rowing the boat. And then I started rowing him for fifteen years. I was taking him out on the water and we had some good years. But then eventually, right, it caught up to him. 00:42:27 Tom: Yeah. Well, you know, and of course, you know, I was at these ages. I’m almost as old as your dad. 00:42:35 Dave: Yeah. 00:42:35 Tom: And, um, you know, we’re lucky to live this long. Number one, my, my, my parents died in their mid sixties. Mhm. But I was talking to Tom Brokaw this last winter, and he’s my exactly my age. And, uh, he said, you know, he said, if we appear in the obituaries tomorrow, they’re not going to use the phrase plucked from the flower of life. 00:42:59 Dave: Right. 00:43:00 Tom: So, you know, you gotta keep powering on. But I mean, like Tony Stellar, I mean, geez, ninety five and fishing the dean and. 00:43:09 Dave: Fishing the dean. 00:43:10 Tom: He made a cast, fired this enormous cast of Fisher seem on the far side of the river. As soon as it landed, this steelhead gulped it and the guide said, did you see that take? And Tony said, did you see that cast? 00:43:26 Dave: Right. I know, man, it is nice. It’s beautiful to see a perfect. A great fly caster, you know, single hand or or double hand, right. I mean, I agree. 00:43:37 Tom: I. 00:43:37 Dave: Agree, it’s a work of art for sure. Well as you look at, I mean you’ve done a lot. We’ve talked about it going back to the days of the Florida and all that. You’ve covered a lot of species. You know, anything you didn’t quite get to? I always think about that. Like, I know we’re not going to get to everything. Is there anything out there you’re thinking like, man, that’s one I wish I would have. Or maybe you’re still thinking about doing. 00:43:57 Tom: I’ll think about that, but I want to just drop back just an inch or two here. I was fishing last year, that year before last with a friend of mine, and we’d gone out and it was a really rough day and we had to take make a long run to where we were going. And we got over to the mouth of the Myakka River, close to the mouth of Myakka River, and there are big crystal clear rollers coming in. 00:44:22 Dave: Where’s that at? 00:44:23 Tom: Uh, in the southwest. Florida, on the Gulf. 00:44:26 Dave: Oh, okay. Yeah. 00:44:28 Tom: And my partner caught one right away, about a hundred pounds. And, um, then I hooked a fish. They were all, all these tarpon suspended in this super clear water, and they’re all laid up. Wow. And, uh, it was an unbelievable opportunity. So anyway, I saw a big fish and I made a cast to it and it ate. And it was the wildest ever. She jumped eight times, crashed back into the ocean and, uh, uh, and ran out of air. So I said to the guys I was fishing with, I said, I’m going to ping this fish off. I’m just too old to do one of these jobbies because I’d been through that with a two hour battle with a one hundred and fifty pounder. This fish was one hundred and sixty or plus. We had the boat in eight minutes. So the guy I was with said, is that the world’s record? I said, well, it used to be, but it’s still the world’s record for eighty two year olds. 00:45:24 Dave: Exactly, man, eighty two years old. And you landed a giant one hundred pounder. 00:45:30 Tom: one hundred and sixty plus. 00:45:32 Dave: one hundred and sixty plus. Jeez. 00:45:34 Tom: Yeah, that’ll be one hundred and sixty five. 00:45:36 Dave: Man. Yeah. That’s impressive. Yeah. Tarpon seems to be when I ask people occasionally that question, you know, that know that fish for a lot of species, you know, it seems like tarpon comes to the top of the list. A lot of times. 00:45:48 Tom: It’s right up there. For me, the steelhead are the number numero uno. Yeah. But tarpon have some things that they do that are unforgettable. One of them is the eat is startling. 00:46:00 Dave: Yeah. 00:46:01 Tom: I mean, when you see them, you may cast your little fly out there and you see them take two or three gallons of water to eat it, uh, right up in the top of the. Wow. And you’re fishing floating lines. Um, it’s, you know, so that’s pretty special. 00:46:17 Dave: That is special. You’ve done some Atlantic salmon. We mentioned it a little bit earlier. What’s the comparison between Atlantic salmon that you’ve done versus steelhead. How would you describe that? 00:46:26 Tom: Well, uh, I’ve done more steelhead fishing, but I’ve fished in Russia a couple of times. I’ve fished in Canada several times, fished with my dad long ago on the River of Ponds in Newfoundland. I fished the whale. Um, fished the Mr. Marguerite. Anyway, quite a few of them, but not as much as steelhead fishing. The thing that fascinated me, and this I really noticed this, is that, uh, salmon will stay in that hard water and mid-depth. I mean, they’ll get they’ll face right into hard fast water. And steelhead don’t much do that. Steelhead are trout here. You know, they like to get on those edges. They like getting behind stuff. Uh, they like to get in tail outs. Um, and I’ve seen some good steelhead fishermen really get baffled by, uh, Atlantic salmon fishing because they wanted, you know, they want to fish fast sinking lines and they end up fishing way below the salmon. Um, the salmon might be, you know, mid height in the river in the hard water. Right. So that’s a little bit hard to get used to for steelhead fishermen, but that’s a small part of it because eighty five percent of it is the same as steelhead fishing. 00:47:40 Dave: It is. 00:47:41 Tom: Yeah. 00:47:42 Dave: Yeah, it’s very similar. Yeah. And I go back to some of the old books. When I first started fishing that I was reading and you know, they were Atlantic salmon books, you know, written for Atlantic salmon. But a lot of that applied. I remember my dad because he started back fishing the Deschutes back in the fifties or somewhere in there, you know, the early days. Right. And I mean, that’s what they were using. They were like learning from Atlantic salmon fishermen. It’s a little different. Winter steelhead, it sounds like. Is that something? Have you done much winter steelhead fishing or is it mostly been summer? 00:48:07 Tom: I have not done much of that, and that’s probably where a lot of real hardcore steelheaders are made, you know? 00:48:14 Dave: Yeah, yeah. You got to be ready for. That’s that’s where the cold. It’s, it’s not as fun. I mean, again, I don’t do much steelhead fishing these days, but when I do, it’s summer, you know, because it’s hard to beat. 00:48:22 Tom: I feel the same way. Yeah. And the other thing is, um, you know, fishing lead eye stuff on T eighteen and yeah, you know, I’m willing to do it because any way, any way you could possibly catch a steelhead is interesting, but some are Steelheading is way more fun. 00:48:40 Dave: Yeah it is. No. It’s awesome. Well, we’re a couple of different. I mean, again, you’ve written you mentioned the movies. One movie that’s out there, this kind of goes back. I don’t know if you remember if this is a vivid memory, but it kind of goes back to more of the comedy, you know, and I’m kind of your comedy influence, but Rancho Deluxe, you were the was it the screenwriter on that? 00:48:58 Tom: I was a screenwriter. 00:48:59 Dave: Yeah, yeah. Describe that. How did that whole thing. Because that movie is quite a movie. Again, there’s some famous actors in it. It’s quite a movie. 00:49:07 Tom: Yeah. And it’s kind of a cult movie. It just plays out. Yeah. And especially here in Montana, you know, where it’s everybody remembers when it was being made. That was an interesting story. The producer had purchased the film rights to ninety two in the shade, and he came to my place and he said, um, it’s going to take us several years to get this going. Don’t you have something ready to go? Because there wasn’t even a script. It was just the novel for ninety two in the shade. And he said, don’t you have something ready to go? And I said to him, yes, I do. And, uh, that wasn’t true. I had fibbed. So he said, well, I’ll be back in two weeks and we’ll look at what you’ve done and we’ll see what we can do. So I just went into my kids bedroom and slammed the door and wrote day and night for two weeks. Wow. When he came back, I had the script done and I gave it to him, and he went back into my kids room and closed the door and came out and he said, it’s great. We’ll do it. 00:50:09 Dave: No way. 00:50:10 Tom: Yeah. Never happens like that. 00:50:12 Dave: No. 00:50:13 Tom: So and it was great. It was a number of ways. Jeff Bridges and I became lifelong friends for fifty years, I think now. I don’t know what year that came out, but no. That’s crazy. 00:50:25 Dave: Yeah. Jeff Bridges right. 00:50:28 Tom: Seventy. Seventy one. I don’t know. 00:50:30 Dave: Was it seventy one? 00:50:31 Tom: Yeah. 00:50:32 Dave: Yeah. 00:50:33 Tom: Anyway, it’s a long time and still know most of those guys that were in the movie. Sam Waterston and Jeff and. 00:50:42 Dave: Oh, it was a great cast. 00:50:43 Tom: Yeah. 00:50:44 Dave: Oh, and Jimmy Buffett. It was, I think did the music right in that too. 00:50:47 Tom: Yeah. He came on and, and, uh, I had a funny story about that. Jeff Vermilion told me this story. He said, um, when he was a kid, his mother was always humming this song and he could never figure out, uh, what the song was. And when he was later, he said to his mom, what is that song you’re always singing when you’re working in the kitchen? She said, oh, it’s that song from, uh, Rancho Deluxe. Why don’t we get drunk and screw? He completely changed his view of his mother. 00:51:18 Dave: Oh, was that the movie? Was that song actually written for that movie? 00:51:22 Tom: Yeah. 00:51:23 Dave: Oh it was yeah. That’s classic. Yeah. That’s. 00:51:25 Tom: Well, you know, I actually I don’t know the answer to that. Yeah, I remember Livingston Saturday night and Ringling. Ringling were from the movie. But why don’t we get drunk and screw might just be a Jimmy Buffett song. 00:51:38 Dave: It might just be a Buffett song. Yeah, I don’t I don’t know. Yeah, I love Buffett. Yeah. He had his what was he like as a, an angler? Was he just as similar to all you guys? Were you all just the same high level? 00:51:49 Tom: No, no, no. But he got better and better. I mean, when I first knew him in key wasn’t a fisherman and he started working at it and he got, you know, he was a very determined guy, I mean, unbelievably determined guy. So he just did everything in his power to become a better fisherman. Then he got off on these side trips, like trying to bonefish on a paddle board and other things like that. Right. 00:52:14 Dave: Didn’t work too well. 00:52:15 Tom: Um, but yeah, he was an avid fisherman. By the time he passed away, he’d been one for probably thirty years. 00:52:25 Dave: Check out Montana Fly Fishing Lodge, a twenty twenty four Orvis endorsed Lodge of the year finalist where luxury meets adventure on one point five miles of private, wild and scenic East Rosebud River frontage. Experience world class fly fishing on numerous Yellowstone Basin streams. Gourmet cuisine made from locally sourced ingredients and rustic luxury accommodations surrounded by breathtaking wilderness. You can book your all inclusive Montana fly fishing adventure today and discover why they are the premier destination for unforgettable fishing experiences. Head over to Montana Fly Fishing lodge dot com right now, Trout Routes by Onex is built for fly anglers who want better Intel without spending hours digging for the information. You’ll get access to public land maps, stream access points, regulations, and even road and trail maps all in one place. It’s become my go to app for scouting new trips. You can check them out right now. Go to fly dot com slash routes and download the app today. You mentioned writing this, you know, in two weeks doing what you did for Rancho Deluxe. What’s your normal writing? I always go back to the writing process because I feel like, you know, you got to have some system. Have you always had the same system throughout your career? 00:53:36 Tom: No, no, I don’t I’m a sort of a disorderly person in some ways. And so I just set out deciding I’m going to try to write something and maybe I have an idea, maybe I don’t. I’m just going to write and see what happens. Um, you know, I haven’t written a novel since twenty ten, partly age based because I don’t want to lock myself in into a desk job for two or three years, which is what it takes to write a novel. So now I just write short stories, and I’ve written three or four collections of them since then, and all of them, uh, I’m kind of glad I’d been doing that because they’d been, I think maybe some of the best writing I’ve done. I’ve had five selected for Best American short stories. And so, uh, yeah, I get good feedback about that. It’s not a good way to make a living, but I’ve got accumulated so many things that are still in print that I’m doing all right without writing a novel again, right? 00:54:38 Dave: Where can people track some of that down? So what you’re doing now, or what you’ve done the last ten years or so. 00:54:43 Tom: Uh, I think, well, let’s see. I think just go on Amazon. 00:54:48 Dave: Yeah, just go on Amazon. 00:54:49 Tom: And that’ll list everything I’ve got in print right now. 00:54:52 Dave: Perfect. And the, the longest silence that book, I keep going back to that because I feel like it was this book that really did a great job of describing what we all do, what we love. How did, when did that, um, you know, was that kind of your, the big book for fly fishing or describe how that came to be? 00:55:08 Tom: Well, it’s kind of accumulated because it was stuff written over a period of years, but it started out with the title story. Uh, at that time, I had got my first book had come out and Sports Illustrated asked me if I would write something for the magazine. And, um, so I was crazed about catching permit. At that time in my life, it was all I. It was. It was the air I breathed for a while. And so I thought, well, I’ll just write something about that because, you know, I was fishing by myself. I didn’t have anybody to pull me. We didn’t have permit flies and they were hard to catch. So I wrote this thing about the struggles of trying to catch a permit. And I had a wonderful editor. Then Ray cave, who was the editor in chief of Sports Illustrated, and he was a fantastic editor, and he kept making me do it over again. He raised these questions about it, or nobody can follow this, or this is only for your fellow anglers or this. And so it was highly polished, polished by the time I published it in S I, and then it became part of the book. And I don’t think I ever wrote a better fishing story than that one. 00:56:18 Dave: That was it. 00:56:19 Tom: Yeah. And but that was the template for what I wanted to do thereafter. And so anytime in the many years since then, if something just strikes me as interesting and it may not be really about success, or it might be about the people you’re fishing with, there might be any of the things that kind of engage your interest. Um, you know, I remember these little stories that you come up over the years that some of them I’m not a first hand witness of, but the guy who got his foot stuck between rocks on the dean and the guide was not there. 00:56:57 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:56:57 Tom: And he finally died. 00:56:59 Dave: Oh, really? Wow. He drowned with foot entrapment. 00:57:02 Tom: Yeah. You’ve gotten your foot in a crack. 00:57:03 Dave: Oh, yeah. I know a friend of mine has said that. Many. He said that’s the number one way people die. Kayakers, boaters, anybody on rivers is foot entrapment. 00:57:11 Tom: Wow. I haven’t heard that before. 00:57:13 Dave: Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s common. I mean, I’ve I’ve, yeah, I’ve had my foot got never really serious because I’m always thinking about it. But I mean, you could see how it could happen between a boulder and just boom, you’re done. 00:57:22 Tom: Yeah. no, I know. Well that happened. And, uh, so that’s something I just wonder about, you know, and how that what, what were the last hours of the guys waiting, hoping the guide will come back. 00:57:33 Dave: Jeez. 00:57:34 Tom: Um, then another one gloomy fishing story. I remember somebody told me when I was first on the Dean, these two old fellas, lifelong steelheaders, were fishing and they were fishing along this island, and jet boat went by them and they both waved. And then the jet boat later in the day came back and there was only one of them fishing, and they said, where’s Bill? And they said, well, he died about nine o’clock this morning, but we always promised each other we’d finish the day. 00:58:01 Dave: Oh my gosh. There you go. 00:58:04 Tom: So that’s a real steelhead. 00:58:06 Dave: Yeah that’s a real steelhead. Dang. God that is so good. What is the you mentioned the dean a couple times. How do you somebody who’s never been to the dean, how would you describe it to them? 00:58:18 Tom: Well, there are two Dean’s really the above and below the falls. Below the falls, it tends to be long gravel runs, you know. Uh, and in some ways it’s easier to fish than above the falls. Above the falls, more typical steelhead water. It’s, uh, uh, a lot of pocket water, a lot of changes, you know, just there’s something new every fifty yards, it would seem. On the upper dean. And it’s a much more complex fishery. Um, and it’s subject to all the things that steelhead rivers are when the one annual plague is, uh, uh, runoff from snowfields, you know, the kind of gray water that comes running off and gets. 00:59:02 Dave: In. 00:59:04 Tom: And sometimes the river completely blows out. One time I was on the dean and it blew out so bad, it was up in the trees, and you couldn’t. I mean, the river was eight feet too high. Geez. Chocolate brown. 00:59:20 Dave: Yeah. 00:59:20 Tom: I had a friend of mine with me who wanted to learn how to Spey cast. So we went out on the seaplane floats, and I kind of showed him some basic things about Spey casting. He. I remember he had my old sage seventy one thirty six rod with a floating line on it and a muddler. And so he’s making casts out in this mud water, which is eight feet high above normal. And, uh, this steelhead, big steelhead powered up off the bottom through all that mud and ate a waking fly. 00:59:52 Dave: No kidding. Aided in chocolate water. Chocolate. 00:59:55 Tom: So there’s another thing about any animal knows more than we do. 00:59:59 Dave: So good. 01:00:00 Tom: Yeah. Or I remember Bob Hall told me a story. He had these friends for Alaskan fishing guides who always wanted to see steelhead fish or wanted to steelhead fish of the bulkley. So they came down and stayed with him. And, uh, one of the guys said, I’ve always wanted to catch one on a waking fly, but it was. The water temperatures were in the forties. It was the end of the year, right when Bob said, you know, it seemed like a bad idea. So they fished for three or four or five days, and the guy fishing the waking fly was by far the high rod. 01:00:34 Dave: Yep. Yeah. That’s it. 01:00:36 Tom: We don’t know what they know. 01:00:38 Dave: No you don’t, you don’t. You just got to do it. You got to put enough reps in and just fish it just to find the water. 01:00:44 Tom: Like when you were a kid. 01:00:45 Dave: Yeah. Keep it in the water. That’s it. God, that’s so good. When you’re, you know, kind of on the longest silence on that, you know, it’s a compilation, but was it written, you know, did you write that for a certain person? Were you thinking about the more of the fly angler, the general person or, you know, overall or just maybe generally in your writing? Do you think about that, who you’re writing it for? 01:01:07 Tom: Uh, not really, but I accept in that case, because I know I’m, uh, I’ve sense my angling audience, you know, I know, I know, they know what they’re seeing and talking about. And, you know, I wouldn’t want to. 01:01:24 Dave: I wouldn’t say two basic of. 01:01:25 Tom: Yeah, yeah. And I know that I also know that some of the things that fascinate them, uh, because they fascinate me. And so I probably thinking of a collective fishing audience when I’m, when I’m doing. 01:01:37 Dave: But it appeals to, I’m guessing non fly anglers, people that. 01:01:40 Tom: So far that seems to be true. 01:01:42 Dave: Yeah. 01:01:43 Tom: And one of the big fans of that book was, you know, the great, uh, Vietnam reporter David Halberstam, who wrote about great books about war. And, um, he endorsed Sporting Club. I mean, the longest silence. He wrote a blurb for it. I don’t know if David fished at all. Um, but he just read it as fun reading, I guess. Or interesting reading. 01:02:06 Dave: Yeah. 01:02:07 Tom: So hopefully they cross over a little bit. I’ve been hearing from because it’s been published in some European languages and I started hearing from people from elsewhere, even from Russians and stuff like that. 01:02:19 Dave: No, it’s. 01:02:19 Tom: Like that because I love fish. I went to Russia a couple times and I love going there, and I love Russians. They’re just the most fun people to do stuff. I had a guide, uh, on the Rynda River on the Kola Peninsula, uh, who was a PTSD reviver of the war in Chechnya. And, um, he couldn’t even ask him questions about war or anything. He’d start crying. You know, he’s a great fisherman and, uh, and a great companion. Just a wonderful guy to spend the day with. Um. 01:02:53 Dave: Yeah. 01:02:53 Tom: And he said somebody, this is kind of rude, but somebody described, uh, Russians when you’re fishing as being like mules with a sense of humor. Yeah. They’re just great to do stuff with. It makes me increasingly unable to understand why we can’t get along with Russia. Because when you’re around Just like us. 01:03:15 Dave: Yeah they are. They love fishing. I’m sure they love steelhead fishing and salmon and everything else just as much as us. Yeah. They do. Yeah. Awesome. Anything else you want to make sure I hit on as far as what you have coming? Uh, you know. 01:03:25 Tom: No, we could, uh. The one thing I would had meant to talk about a little bit was my early days fishing in Michigan, which was where I started as a. 01:03:33 Dave: Oh, yeah, that’d be great. Yeah, I’d love that. That would be awesome. 01:03:37 Tom: Uh, my father and my grandfather were fly fishermen. Um, and so I got to start out pretty early being encouraged to do it. And we had the use of a friend’s cabin on the Pere Marquette River in Michigan, which was just a great trout river. And I had an old, uh, nineteen fifty four six shift Ford with the whole trunk was set up as a fly fisherman’s. Wow. Fished all those great, uh, northern Michigan rivers before I ever got out of state. And so, That was also an area that had a kind of a tradition in fishing. Um, Michigan was really one of the in fact, it seems to me that half the fishing guides out here from Michigan. 01:04:24 Dave: Yeah. They are. 01:04:26 Tom: Yeah. I know, it’s because we had such great fishing there and it got more and more crowded and people started coming here. I’m one of them actually. 01:04:33 Dave: Right, right. 01:04:34 Tom: But, um, I still look back on that kind of fishing as being just sort of this sandy bottomed rivers, you know, and forest rivers and free feeding, uh, insect driven trout. You know, this is it was a great fishery. I haven’t seen it sixty years. So. 01:04:53 Dave: Yeah. You haven’t been out there recently? 01:04:54 Tom: No, I romanticized it, but I’d love to go back, to be honest with you. 01:04:59 Dave: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we’ve been thinking about it. We’ve been talking to some guys up there and we’re trying to put together a steelhead trip. I know a lot of listeners want to head out and hit that area. 01:05:08 Tom: Yeah, I think it’d be great. I just heard from somebody who was fishing the Manistee. I can’t remember who it was. 01:05:15 Dave: Yeah. 01:05:16 Tom: Recently I was going to. Oh, I know who it was. It was a friend of mine, Bert Jones, who loves to fish. And Bert Jones was the quarterback that followed, um, Johnny Unitas at Baltimore. And then. Oh, wow. He’s a fisherman. So he just wrote me he was visiting friends in Michigan and he said, I’m going steelhead fishing. He said, I’ll report. Well, I. 01:05:38 Dave: Never heard from. 01:05:39 Tom: Report, so I think they got skunked. 01:05:41 Dave: They got skunked. That’s great. Um, that’s pretty great though. Your dad and your grandfather. So this your fly in fly fishing. So your grandfather was a fly angler? 01:05:49 Tom: Yeah. They were, you know, they weren’t, uh, fancy folks. You know, they were. My grandfather was worked on the railroad and stuff for some reason or another. Uh, they were my grandfather especially was a very, uh, sporty guy. He gave me a model twelve twenty gauge when I turned twelve, and then when I turned sixteen, he gave me a twelve gauge. And, um, so I still have model twelves around the house. And, uh, but also we fly fish. I don’t know, I think we were very good flies. I remember we fished Mickey fins and just cast and retrieved. That’s all we knew how to do. 01:06:26 Dave: Yeah, right. 01:06:28 Tom: But it got better. We got better at it. 01:06:30 Dave: Yeah. He got better, so. Yeah. And your dad and I. Yeah. The hunting. Right. You have. You’re not just flying. You’ve got a lot of different backgrounds, right? The hunting, the horses. You had a number of different things you’ve done. 01:06:39 Tom: Yeah. Your life probably too many, in fact. Probably, uh, my father used to, uh, get on my case about it. He said I was too interested in too many things, and there’s some truth to that, but, uh, there’s nothing like old age to kind of narrow your narrow. Narrow. 01:06:55 Dave: Yeah, you’ve stuck with fly is the one thing that you’ve stuck with, right? 01:06:59 Tom: Absolutely. 01:07:00 Dave: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it’s pretty impressive. I feel like I always think of these as, you know, I’m sitting here thinking ahead. You know, I’d love to be in your place. Like to look back, right. Because you never know. Life is short. Like you said, anything can happen, you know. And you got to enjoy it every day. You got it. You know, Calvin’s a person I’m going to be fishing with for Atlantic salmon. And he really made this point. I can’t remember where I was talking to him, but he said that, man, my dad died early and he wanted to get out. I think John Garrick was the same way. John Garrick said his dad loved fishing, but he worked all the time, so he never got out and got fishing. And John was like, I want to fish my life, right? And I feel like you’ve done that for yourself. You’ve been able to get around and really done what you’ve loved. 01:07:39 Tom: Well, not only that, but my, uh, uh, my dad really got me started fishing and we fished together a lot. And then he became kind of a workaholic and then an alcoholic, and I could just see he kind of faded out of my life. I was always, uh, regretted that. And I was determined not to do that. Um, and then, you know, also for me fishing, I live right on a river. So it’s easy for fish. Um, but, uh, you know, living in the, these agitated times that we live in, I mean, you get, I get a knot in my stomach every time I open a morning newspaper. 01:08:17 Dave: I know it’s terrible. 01:08:18 Tom: But it’s so nice, uh, to step into a river. Um, and that all changes and doesn’t change just in terms of escapism. It’s a chance to separate yourself from all the crap that’s showering our lives these days. You could step into a river, and you, you get a chance to try to get the perspective back. And I rely on it to keep from keep saying I would have to say. 01:08:44 Dave: Keep saying, yeah, well, there’s a the show. I’m not sure if you heard about it. And the only reason I even mentioned this a couple times is Mike Lawson mentioned this to me and some other people have Madison or the Madison. It’s a show that’s out there now on. Right? Right. It’s Kurt Russell. It’s, uh, you know, uh, Michelle Pfeiffer and it’s a, it’s a show, but, you know, they get into fly fishing and, um, yeah. And he was this guy from New York, right? The story. Right. He’s this guy from New York that basically loved Montana and wanted to get his family out there and never did until he died. And then finally his family came out and was like, wow, this place is the place, or at least the Michelle. What, like Montana? When did that when did you move to Montana? And what was it about that kept you there? 01:09:24 Tom: Well, I had had a graduate fellowship and I had about six hundred bucks left. And, um, I went into Winston’s shop there in San Francisco and I said, I’ve got a little bit of time before I got to go out and get a real job, and I’m going to go someplace and just fish. So I remember Gary, what’s his name? Rod builder there. 01:09:49 Dave: Oh, Loomis. 01:09:50 Tom: No, no. Um, worked for, uh, Winston. Oh. 01:09:56 Dave: I’m not. 01:09:56 Tom: Sure. Yeah. Famous bamboo rod builder. Yeah. And I said, you know, I’m trying to think of a place to go. I don’t have much time. I mean, my money’s going to run out. And he said, well, why don’t you go to Livingston, Montana? Uh, there are a lot of nice fishing towns, but Livingston has the most trees. So. So I thought, well, that sounds like a good idea. And I rented a room for twenty eight dollars a month. And, uh, uh, and while I was there in that short period of time, my first book was accepted. Wasn’t quite enough to live on, but I got a job taking care of a ranch and pray. Montana, uh, wasn’t anything to do but take care of the buildings. There was nothing else there. And so I found a little way of kind of hanging around a little bit longer. And then, you know, fifty years came and went. I never made it. I never made a decision. 01:10:50 Dave: Right. Yeah. You’re still there. Yeah. That’s really cool. Yeah. And you’re still in the same area. The same in Livingston. 01:10:57 Tom: Uh, no. I lived in the Paradise Valley up near pray if you know where that is. And then, uh, Deep Creek. And then I moved over here to the boulder about thirty five years ago. Um, uh, at that point, boulder seemed kind of remote. You had to go on a ten mile dirt road to get out here and. Yeah. Um, but it’s getting, like, everything else is getting busier. 01:11:20 Dave: Yeah. Yeah. It’s getting busier as Montana people are realizing more and more how cool Montana is, right? 01:11:26 Tom: And oh, I know, it’s kind of, you know, because I, I was a steer roper for years and going around. Oh yeah. Go to all these jackpots all over the state. You really soon realized that about two thirds of the state is pretty empty. 01:11:41 Dave: Yeah. 01:11:42 Tom: Um, but the southwest Montana or northwest Montana, I mean, that’s where everybody wants to be. It’s all all that’s why you see, you see Montana getting popular, but you don’t see the population rising. 01:11:54 Dave: Oh you don’t it’s still pretty small. 01:11:55 Tom: Yeah. 01:11:56 Dave: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. And if you go east in Montana, it’s huge. So yeah, if you go east of where you’re at, eventually there’s a lot of open country out there. 01:12:04 Tom: I’m right on the edge of the prairie here. 01:12:05 Dave: Oh you are? Yeah. 01:12:06 Tom: Yeah. I kind of like it this way. In fact, except for the fishing angle. I would really be happy to live in eastern Montana. 01:12:14 Dave: Yeah. Eastern Montana. Exactly. Yeah, there’s. Well, there’s some, uh, you know, the big Horn, right? There’s some rivers out there that way that are pretty decent. 01:12:21 Tom: I fish all these little prairie rivers around here. 01:12:25 Dave: Okay. 01:12:25 Tom: We usually get thermally challenged by August, you know, but you never see anybody else, never catch any very big. No. 01:12:36 Dave: No. 01:12:37 Tom: Well, I have a story I kind of want to write, which is what’s so great about big. 01:12:42 Dave: About big o big fish. 01:12:45 Tom: Yeah. People say, I just want to catch a big fish. 01:12:48 Dave: Yeah. 01:12:49 Tom: I think there’s, you know, I remember I had a had a cabin on the Barkley for years and I never caught really big fish there, but I catch these pissed off twelve pound hens, you know? And I thought, well, I don’t want they don’t need to be any bigger than this. I’m one hundred percent happy with these fish. Um, and, uh, the ones that just spank the river when they’re there, I know. 01:13:12 Dave: I think that’s a, maybe an evolution of anglers. You know, I feel like, I mean, of course, I think a lot of people love to get into big fish. I love that, but I think a lot of people are just realizing catching diversity of fish species, right? Like the Western trout challenge, people are loving just catching these tiny little fish. Unique species. 01:13:29 Tom: Right? 01:13:30 Dave: You haven’t heard about the. Yeah, it’s pretty cool there. So I think it’s I’m not sure if it’s too. They have these challenges in some of the states where if you catch. You try to catch all the native species on their home range. And so it’s kind of people are into that a little bit. 01:13:41 Tom: But I think though, you know, if you, you know, steelhead fishing, you know, if you could catch more than one fish a day, or if you just have a great day or two or three things happen. I as I’ve gotten older, I’m sort of interested in events when you’re fishing, I mean, I had an event where I was fishing on the on the new fork of the green. And, uh, this big brown trout came up to my fly as a floating fly came up and looked at it and he said. 01:14:10 Dave: That’s right. 01:14:13 Tom: And he went off. I could see him kind of thinking. He went away about ten feet and he thought, I’m not so sure. And he came back in. 01:14:19 Dave: Oh no way. 01:14:20 Tom: Yeah. 01:14:21 Dave: Oh, man. 01:14:22 Tom: Even if that fish had come off, that was an event, you know, it was such a great event. 01:14:27 Dave: That’s so cool. I mean, that is just seeing it again. Back to John Hazel on that episode was so cool because he talked about when he was guiding on the Deschutes is really cool because it has these train tracks back in the day a hundred years ago. Right. Yeah. You fish, you know, those train tracks they had and both sides have tracks because they had this train war back in the day, and whoever won the race got the contract. 01:14:47 Tom: I didn’t know. 01:14:47 Dave: That. Yeah. So there’s this whole train war. There’s a whole book written about it, but it’s interesting. So so the one side lost, but there’s still the elevation. So John would say as a guy he loved. He would go down there and he would get up on these elevated and he would watch the guy, his anglers, fishing, and he could see the steelhead coming up, and he’d talk about how they’d come up and they wouldn’t take. And then he’d see. And because. And so he felt like that was just as good as fishing, being able to see the steelhead, like you’re saying with that. 01:15:12 Tom: Yeah, I agree with that. You know, um, uh, I’m having a senior moment, but the guy, those bamboo rods and. 01:15:19 Dave: Oh yeah, yeah. Um, I know, me too. 01:15:22 Tom: I just had a ridiculous. I’ve only known him for fifty years. 01:15:26 Dave: You’re right. 01:15:27 Tom: But he had the most unusual way of steelhead. He’s another one of those guys that went to, uh, that branch of the University of California way up north, you know, where all the steelhead guys went to college. Yeah, Bob Weddle and all those guys went there. But anyway, he had this thing the way he fished and he, he tied his flies on old herder hooks, which he was a big believer in. And, uh, he was very careful about the angle of sun, and he would cast single handed rod, and he’d have this this zone where he’s watched. And he said, because most steelhead that rise to the fly don’t eat. And he said, but people don’t know that because they’re not doing this right. And so he would stand there and look in this little cone into the water until he could see some get a refusal which you would have otherwise not seen. And then he would go back and he’d try to make little changes until he’d get that fish to eat. Mhm. 01:16:23 Dave: That’s it. 01:16:24 Tom: What’s his name? Isn’t that awful? 01:16:26 Dave: Yeah. 01:16:27 Tom: You know what I mean? 01:16:28 Dave: Yeah, I do. I know who you’re talking about, but I’m drawing a blank, too. Well, we’ll throw it in the show notes. We’ll follow up with you and get we’ll have a a nice show notes for this episode as well. Okay. Here, but let’s take it out here. A couple of random ones. We love to do a little bit of random segment here on the podcast. So, and I know you don’t drink now, but going back to the days when you were drinking back with, I go back to that period of time, ninety two in the shade. What was your beverage of choice back then? Did you have one that you enjoyed? 01:16:53 Tom: Yeah. George Dickel. 01:16:55 Dave: George Dickel. 01:16:56 Tom: Bourbon. 01:16:57 Dave: Oh, okay. There you go. Bourbon. 01:16:59 Tom: Sour mash. Bourbon. 01:17:01 Dave: Sour mash. Bourbon. Okay. 01:17:02 Tom: After all these years. I’d love to have one right now. 01:17:05 Dave: There you go. Isn’t that funny how that works, too? I, I for a long time chewed tobacco, mainly because my dad and my family did. It was a terrible habit. I, you know, I. 01:17:13 Tom: Quit. 01:17:13 Dave: It, I your dad did too. 01:17:15 Tom: I was totally addicted to snus. 01:17:18 Dave: Yeah. Snooze. Yeah. It was like, I loved it. And I even right now, I mean, it’s been a long time, but even right now, like, a Copenhagen shoe would be great. 01:17:26 Tom: How about when you screw the little cut top off and it’s a little moist mound in there? 01:17:31 Dave: Exactly. 01:17:32 Tom: I mean, I had I quit it, I was was so ill tempered when I quit it the first time in my life, I had an office in town because I couldn’t be around people. And then after I quit for two or three years, a friend of mine came over and he was visiting. He gets out his can of Copenhagen. Yep. And, uh, and he slides open the top. And I said, God, you know, I used to chew that. I wonder if I still like that. And so I got a pinch and put it in my lip and I was immediately sick to my stomach. 01:18:03 Dave: Oh, wow. 01:18:04 Tom: Swirling. So I said to him, I said, hey, I can’t even talk to you. I gotta go lie down for a minute. So I went into my bedroom. I laid down until the whirlies quit. As soon as they quit, I got up, jumped in my truck and drove into town, bought another can of Copenhagen. I was back on it for a year and a half. 01:18:23 Dave: There you go. That’s me too. That would be exactly me too. I know it’s it’s one of those things, but it’s good. You know, I think about I quit when I first did it because of my kids, you know, they were being born. I was like, all right, that’s something. I don’t need to have them because I do feel like, you know, your parents, your family’s a big influence. I don’t know if. Right. Oh, absolutely. That was a big part of it. But no, that’s cool to hear. Well, you you did it as well. Another thing. You’ve quit. What? Whatever. Give me another advice. What’s another advice you’ve given up over the years? 01:18:49 Tom: Other than another advice, that was advice. Alcohol was a vice. 01:18:53 Dave: Yeah, those are the big ones. 01:18:54 Tom: I think those were the big ones that I remember when I was. My wife’s from Alabama and I’d be down south, uh, quail hunting and stuff like that. And it felt like if you’re quail hunting, you had to have a big, you had to have a big hunk of chaw in your cheek. So yeah, you didn’t look like one of the boys unless one side of your face was distorted. Yeah. And, uh, so I did that for a while, but it wasn’t strong enough for me, so I had to. I had a guy cowboy working for me at one point, uh, uh, who was so addicted to Copenhagen that he couldn’t sleep through the night unless he totally packed his lower lip. Oh my God. So it would steep all night long. Otherwise, he was an insomniac. 01:19:38 Dave: Wow, that is. 01:19:39 Tom: Crazy. And then when I quit. I went down to the body shop here in town, and I told the guy, I said, uh, I said I was going to quit Copenhagen. And he was shrewd. And he said, you can’t. He said, you can’t quit it. Just forget about it. 01:19:56 Dave: Right. I know. Well, you know, I wrote a blog post about this, not, not anywhere near your writing, but I wrote a blog post I remember because it was back in the day and it was something like, you know, the twelve things that help me quit chewing, you know, because it was a big thing for me when I quit and I wrote this thing. And one of them was I had this crazy friend who I didn’t really like, but he was a friend. He was actually kind of a real, but he quit chewing like two years before me. And I always thought, like, if this guy can quit chewing, I can quit chewing. You know, he’s a total. Right. And so I used that as inspiration for me to think like, man, this is not that hard. It’s doable. Right? And then, and then I think I quit like one hundred times before I finally quit. Right. 01:20:33 Tom: Well, let me give you from the from my experience, if you even have one teensy pinch, you’re off on the railroad again. And you’ll have, you’ll be you’ll have hell getting off. 01:20:45 Dave: Yeah. That’s it. 01:20:47 Tom: That’s what Harrison’s thing with cigarettes, I mean. 01:20:49 Dave: Oh, right. 01:20:51 Tom: Yeah. Oh my God, he just killed himself. 01:20:54 Dave: He did. So he was a big smoker. 01:20:56 Tom: Oh, yeah. All his life. Like three packs a day. He never, never without a cigarette. Everything around him was intensely tobacco smelled. And, um, I remember one time because we had a neighbor, famous neighbor, Tom Brokaw. So Harrison had to go to the Mayo Clinic for heart problems. And, uh, he gets there. Brokaw was on the board of Mayo, so he got Harrison in to go in there. And so they got him a little suite at the Mayo Clinic. Very deluxe kind of a deal. Harrison gets in there and says, I can’t believe this hospital. You can’t smoke here. 01:21:29 Speaker 3: Oh, God. 01:21:31 Dave: Wow. That didn’t even that didn’t work. 01:21:34 Tom: At his office. He said, you got to put in a call for me. They won’t let me smoke. 01:21:38 Dave: Oh my gosh. Crazy I know. Yeah. I think some people are just. Yeah, it’s I guess I don’t know, you love something so much, right? You’re willing to give that, you know. 01:21:48 Tom: I know well, you know, it’s people that, you know, they cut a hole in their. 01:21:52 Dave: Yeah, I know. 01:21:53 Tom: Put the stick, put a ciggie right in the hole because they can’t stop. It’s so addictive. 01:21:59 Dave: It’s another level I know. Well tell me this, Tom, before we get out of here, you had another story where you mentioned the meat bucket, do you. I don’t know if that remembers if that rings a bell, but you talked about this meat bucket. It was. I can’t remember what story it was in, but it was basically describing, I think, kind of the that place in the stream. That’s like the place. Yeah, yeah. The bucket. Right. The meat bucket. Do you find when you’re on, let’s just take it back to steelhead. Are you pretty good at reading water? You get out on a run by yourself. Can you tell where that meat bucket’s at? Is that something you’ve learned over the years? 01:22:29 Tom: I think so, I think it’s finally sunk in. I mean, I for a long time I was into just water coverage, you know, hoping I stumbled on the flies and, um, and then that comes back with Spey casting because you think, well, you know, well, why don’t I just pop out a ninety footer here and a lot of fish are going to see that fly because it’s going to cover so much ground, but it’s a kind of a false invitation because you really need to be staring at the water as much. 01:22:57 Dave: As you and find that little within that giant run, whereas the little ten or the eighty twenty, right? Where’s the twenty percent? You know, the fish are in those little buckets. They’re not spread out all over the place. 01:23:07 Tom: And some of them are just divots in the stream bed. You know, they’re you can’t really tell. That’s really true. In Atlantic salmon fishing. You’ll just see, you know, some this little discrepancy in the in the stream bed. Um, wow. Yeah, yeah. That’s why a lot of steelhead camps, the great casters very often not the best. 01:23:29 Dave: That’s right. 01:23:29 Tom: Best catcher. 01:23:30 Dave: Yeah. I’ve heard that. I’ve heard that before. Which is, which is kind of. 01:23:34 Tom: Have you ever done a show with Dylan Tamina? 01:23:37 Dave: Uh, Dylan, I don’t think we’ve talked. I don’t think he’s been on the podcast yet. 01:23:40 Tom: Okay. Yeah. Because Dylan is, uh, he can get in behind on the I b five guys and have him fish through the run and yeah, get tired of it and realize nothing’s there. And then he’ll just step in the river and catch a fish. 01:23:54 Dave: And catch a fish. 01:23:55 Tom: Yeah. He’s a real fish catcher. 01:23:57 Dave: That’s awesome. Yeah. No, Dylan, I know we’ve talked. I you I don’t know if you get this after we’re I’m we’re over a thousand interviews now, right on the podcast. Like we’ve we’ve and I forgot I don’t remember, I remember all of them, but I don’t remember all the details or even you know what I mean? Like I don’t remember, but is that kind of how you’ve written a lot? It seems like you remember most of your stuff. Is there some things you’ve forgotten about, stories you’ve written over the years? 01:24:19 Tom: Oh, God. Yes. Yeah. In fact, I don’t really look back at them because I want to rewrite them. I mean, I’m a great reviser anyway. I mean, most of my stories have draft been drafted at least ten times. So I know if I went back and read my stuff, I’d be unhappy with it. Um, maybe not unhappy with it, but I’d say, how did I let that get by? Or, you know, could you do further tweaking? But, you know, there’s a point in any kind of writing where further effort is, um, unrewarded. I mean, you have to make it make a truce with it. There’s an old saddle bronc, uh, expression that I always like about doing things that are hard that involve a lot of revision. And the expression is there’s a time to try and a time to fly. And a smart bird knows why bronc riders mean that’s time you’re getting bucked off anyway. You might as well go now, right? And there’s a moment like that in, in writing where, you know, you just get to the point where it’s not what you want it to be, but you’ve given it your all and yeah, it’s good. And um, but further efforts not going to be rewarded. 01:25:31 Dave: Gotcha. So that’s when you know, and you know, you’re you’re good. And that’s yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Wow. Yeah, we’re we’re, uh, another writer. You know, we mentioned the Atlantic salmon. We’re going to be fishing kind of the same cabin, the same runs where Lee Wolfe fish back in the day. This was one of his. 01:25:47 Tom: River of ponds, by any. 01:25:48 Dave: Chance? I know this is. Well, he did know this is on Portland Creek right out of. 01:25:51 Tom: Oh yeah. 01:25:51 Dave: Okay. Yeah. Portland Creek. So this is he had a little bit of a lodge there. And I think the lodge for the most part is gone, although there are some pieces, but we’re going to there’s a new lodge at Mountain Water, so we’re going to be fishing. It’s going to be for me, kind of cool because I think he was such an inspiration. Like conservation. He was inspirational, inspired by. Right. He was was Lee Wolfe. Was that somebody that you’ve, uh, you’ve kind of thought about known over the years? 01:26:13 Tom: Uh, well, I’ve certainly read his stuff. Yeah, yeah. And I fished the Grand Cascapedia a couple of times. And one thing I remember, I was fishing with an old time guide there. Uh, and I was a guest. I’d been invited there because I was on a board with some people that had a camp and I was fishing with this old guy. Um, and he was talking about fishing with Lee Wolfe, and he said the nature of the river is sometimes you’ll see a little pocket in the river, and there’ll be a salmon there, and you can see him from a long way off. And he said, Lee Wolfe. And a lot of people say, you know, you can’t catch that fish or, you know, give it a couple of shots. He said Lee Wolfe would stay there until he got the fish. Yeah. And, um, that’s interesting because maybe other people in the camp had caught five. And this may be going to be the only fish he’s going to catch. But he’d stay till he got it. 01:27:09 Dave: He stayed till. Yeah. 01:27:10 Tom: Yeah. 01:27:11 Dave: He’s dedicated. 01:27:12 Tom: That gave me a real insight to what. What kind of a guy he was. 01:27:16 Dave: Yeah. I mean, he I’m just reading a book now, a biography about his, you know, about his his whole life. But, I mean, the plane thing was amazing, you know, because he had this idea of going up and basically exploring Canada and the government kind of paid for him. Right. But he had this idea that, man, if he can get one of these float planes, he could explore all of Canada, you know, Labrador and everything. And so he reached out to some company and he basically said, hey, you know, I want to do this. What do you think? And the plane company or the company was like, hey, we’ll give you this plane. If you promote do do what you’re doing. So he literally didn’t even know how to fly and he just learned how to fly, you know? And so the next year, like he, yeah. So he basically taught himself, you know, took a class and did the whole thing and then flew. And at one point, I mean, he flew from the US up to Newfoundland. I mean, it was one hundred mile chunk back in the day when people didn’t do that. So he was pushing the limits, you know what I mean of, of something. It was pretty inspiring. Right? I feel like I always go back to then the guys were a little tougher back then. Do you feel like that when you look back at the old days? 01:28:14 Tom: Oh yeah, I do. Although the one I think, you know, because I’ve been a little bit of a fishing bum in my life. And I remember when I was growing up, we didn’t have fishing bombs because everybody had a very in the fifties, everybody had a tough job, you know, And I remember my dad and his friends, they were such avid fishermen. But, you know, they’d work their buns off all week long, and then they’d get on the train or something, and they’d go up north and they’d fish for two days and then back to work. 01:28:43 Dave: That’s it. Right. Two days. 01:28:45 Tom: Yeah. And, uh, I’m sure that my dad and his friends, the guys I really worshiped, you know, I had a couple of so-called uncles, you know, who I really looked to? Um, I’m sure they would have a very low opinion of fishing bums. 01:29:01 Dave: Would they? Oh, right. They didn’t work hard enough. 01:29:03 Tom: Yeah. They. Yeah. They just, you know, this isn’t a vacation. 01:29:06 Dave: They’d say. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right, that’s right. Yeah. It’s interesting. Yeah. It’s it’s changed a little bit but. 01:29:11 Speaker 3: Yeah. 01:29:12 Dave: Well cool. Tom. I think this is probably a good place. We can leave it here. I want to keep talking to you all day here, but I’ll let you get out of here. Um, I just want to say thanks again. It’s been great, you know, to finally put this together and just thank you for all the, the work and the inspiration. And I know people are going to love this. And until we talk again. Thanks. Thank you. 01:29:30 Tom: You keep up your own good work because I’ll be paying attention. I have been for a long time now. 01:29:38 Dave: I hope you enjoyed that one. The great Tom McGuane on the podcast. This is a day to remember for sure. Hope you enjoyed some of those stories from Tom. And if you aren’t familiar with some of his work, now is your chance to dig in. I know we talked about just touch the surface on some of his work here, and if you haven’t checked out some of the stories and the books, definitely jump in today. I want to remind you as always, Wet Fly Swing Pro, we’re going to be launching this at the next boot camp. So you can go right now, fly swing dot com slash, sign up and you’ll get updated when we go live with our next cohort wet Fly Swing Pro. We got some good stuff coming, including meetups with listeners around the country. If you’re interested in doing some of that and connecting with other folks in the community, I’d love to hear from you. I want to let you know we’ve got the week of writers, great writers, and and is going strong. This week we got Stephen Brunt on the podcast. He’s going to be here this week. One of the biggest outdoor writers in the history of Canada is going to join us this week. We’re going to talk about some of the epic sports events he’s joined, and we’re going to talk about Mount Waters Resort, because we’re getting ready for a big trip out there to fish for Atlantic salmon. Um, this one is definitely a surprise and was a really fun one as well. So this is going to be a big week for us. Hope you get a chance to check out the rest of the episodes this week, and I’m gonna get out of here. We gotta get on to, uh, back, back to, uh, Devon and some Euro. Actually, we’re gonna get back to Devon and Team USA. We’re going to be talking about that as we get closer and closer to team USA going live this year, uh, in eastern Idaho. And, uh, and if you haven’t heard, they’re going to hopefully be bringing the gold home and we’re going to be reporting on it this year. So that’s all I got for you. Hope you’re having a good evening. I hope you have a good afternoon or morning wherever you are in the country. Thanks again for stopping by. We’ll talk to you soon.

 

Photo via https://news.orvis.com/fly-fishing/podcast-a-life-in-fly-fishing-with-tom-mcguane

 

Conclusion with Tom McGuane on the Dean River, Tarpon, Spey, and a Writer’s Journey

Some guests teach you new techniques.

Others remind you why you started fishing in the first place.

Tom McGuane somehow does both. If you haven’t read Tom’s books yet, this episode is the perfect place to start.

     

954 | Belize Bonefish, Tarpon & Permit: One Angler’s First Flats Experience

The Blue Bonefish Lodge
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/bluebonefishbelize/

For many fly anglers, a trip to Belize means one thing—finally experiencing the thrill of chasing Bonefish across crystal-clear flats. But once you’re standing on the bow of a skiff, you’ll quickly realize that Bonefish are only part of the story.

In this episode of the Wet Fly Swing Podcast, Chris shares what it was like to fish the Belize flats for the first time. From landing his first Bonefish to taking shots at Tarpon and Permit, the trip became an unforgettable introduction to the world of saltwater fly fishing.

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(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻

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Chris Bowden Bonefish Fly Fishing.
Chris Bonefish Fly Fishing

Show Notes with Chris on Bonefish

Chris joins Dave Stewart to share what it was really like stepping onto the flats for the first time at Blue Bonefish Lodge. From learning how to spot Bonefish and trusting his guide’s directions to taking his first shots at tarpon and permit, he opens up about the challenges, surprises, and moments that made this trip unforgettable.

Meet Chris: From Trout Streams to Bonefish Flats

[00:06:30] Chris has spent years fly fishing for trout, but this trip marked his first experience targeting Bonefish on the Belize flats. Like many first-time saltwater anglers, he quickly realized that flats fishing is a completely different game.

Instead of reading the currents and casting to rising fish, Chris had to learn to spot Bonefish in shallow water, react quickly to the guide’s instructions, and make accurate casts in windy conditions. The transition wasn’t easy, but it made every success even more rewarding.

The learning curve began the moment he stepped onto the skiff. Even though Chris arrived prepared, he quickly learned that no amount of backyard casting can fully prepare you for your first Bonefish trip.

“Everything happens a lot faster than you expect”

Belize-aerial-view-bonefish-fishing
Photo via https://www.thewanderingangler.com/en/fishing-in-the-permit-alley-2/

Why Belize Is a World-Class Bonefish Destination

[00:06:30-00:12:30] Belize has earned the reputation as one of the best places in the world for Bonefish fly fishing. The crystal-clear flats surrounding Ambergris Caye provide ideal habitat for Bonefish while also offering anglers opportunities to target tarpon and permit—the famous saltwater Grand Slam.

For Chris, Belize wasn’t just about catching fish. It was about learning a new style of fly fishing in one of the most beautiful destinations on earth.

Bonefish
Photo via https://www.yellowdogflyfishing.com/blogs/back-stage-pass/fly-fishing-for-bonefish-safe-handling-practices

Learning How to Spot Bonefish

[00:12:30-00:20:00] Every angler remembers their first Bonefish, and Chris is no exception. After a few opportunities, he finally connected with a classic Crazy Charlie fly.

The instant the fish took off across the flats, he understood why Bonefish are known as one of the strongest fighting fish pound for pound. It wasn’t just about landing the fish; it was about trusting his guide, staying calm, and letting the experience unfold naturally.

Key Takeaways

  • Listen carefully to your guide.
  • Don’t rush the cast.
  • Keep stripping until the Bonefish commits.
  • Stay patient during the fight.
White Crazy Charlie
Photo via https://www.yellowdogflyfishing.com/products/white-crazy-charlie

Learning How to Spot Bonefish on the Flats

[00:20:00-00:28:30] One of the biggest challenges wasn’t making the cast; it was seeing the fish. Experienced guides could spot Bonefish from incredible distances, while Chris initially struggled to find them. As the trip progressed, he learned to recognize subtle signs like moving shadows, nervous water, and tailing fish.

By the final day, his eyes had adjusted, and spotting Bonefish became much easier.

How to Spot Bonefish More Effectively

  • Focus on movement instead of looking for the whole fish.
  • Watch for small wakes and nervous water.
  • Listen carefully to your guide’s clock directions.
  • Trust your instincts as your eyes adjust.

The Best Gear for Your First Bonefish Trip

[00:29:00–00:31:00] Traveling internationally with fly rods can be challenging, especially on smaller commuter flights. Chris found that using a six-piece travel rod made the journey much easier.

The Pescador on the Fly El Rey G6 fit neatly inside his carry-on backpack, eliminating the hassle of traveling with a traditional rod tube.

For anglers planning their first Bonefish adventure, choosing travel-friendly gear can make the entire trip less stressful.

Looking for a fly rod built for travel? The El Rey G6 six-piece fly rod is designed for anglers who want premium performance without the hassle of traveling with oversized rod tubes. Whether you’re headed to Belize or your next fly-fishing destination, it’s a convenient option that’s ready for the adventure.

Wet Fly Swing listeners can save 10% with promo code: WETFLYSWING

Pescador-on-the-Fly-El-Rey-G6.webp
Pescador on the Fly El Ray G5 Photo via https://pescadoronthefly.com/pages/el-rey-g6-series

More Than Bonefish: Tarpon and Permit Opportunities

[00:31:00-00:42:00] Although Bonefish were the primary target, Belize also allowed Chris to cast at tarpon and permit.

He watched tarpon roll near the boat and had several exciting shots at permit cruising the flats. All the while, these fish proved more elusive; each encounter taught valuable lessons about presentation, patience, and timing.

Even the fish that weren’t landed became unforgettable moments.

Blue Bonefish Lodge: More Than Just Great Fishing

[00:42:00–00:52:00] The fishing was only part of what made the trip memorable. Blue Bonefish Lodge provided comfortable accommodations, excellent meals, and a welcoming atmosphere that helped guests relax after long days on the water.

Blue Bonefish Lodge
Photo via https://www.instagram.com/bluebonefishbelize/

Evenings were spent sharing stories, enjoying appetizers, and connecting with fellow anglers who quickly became friends. Chris also mentions that the lodge is an excellent destination for couples. While anglers head out onto the flats, spouses and families can enjoy snorkeling, relaxing by the water, or exploring nearby San Pedro.

That combination of world-class Bonefish fishing and memorable hospitality makes the lodge appealing to both anglers and non-anglers alike.

Exploring Belize Beyond Bonefish Fishing

[00:52:00-00:58:00] Belize offers much more than world-class Bonefish fishing.

Chris and his wife spent time snorkeling along the Belize Barrier Reef, where they encountered sea turtles, nurse sharks, colorful reef fish, and vibrant coral formations.

Adding a few extra days to explore Belize made the trip even more rewarding.

San Pedro Belize Resort
San Pedro Beach, Belize. Photo via https://www.jmbelizetravel.com/san-pedro-belize/

Five Bonefish Lessons Every First-Time Flats Angler Should Know

[00:58:00] Looking back on the trip, Chris shared several lessons that would have made his first Bonefish adventure even better.

  • Trust Your Guide
  • Practice Before You Go
  • Stay Calm Under Pressure
  • Learn From Every Opportunity
  • Enjoy the Entire Experience

Connect with The Blue Bonefish Lodge & Pescador on the Fly

Instagram: @bluebonefishbelize & @pescadoronthefly

Facebook: The Blue Bonefish Lodge & Pescador on the Fly

Website: The Blue Bonefish Lodge & Pescador on the Fly

The Blue Bonefish Lodge

Sponsors and Podcast Updates

Full Podcast Transcript

Episode Transcript
00;00;01;29 – 00;00;23;02 Dave Sometimes you don’t realize how much you’re missing until a guide starts calling out fish you never saw. Today, we’re heading to Belize for a first shot at Flats Bonefish, Ms. Tarpon and the real learning curve that hits when it all finally comes together. Today, we’re going behind the scenes with a person who’s been on the fly swim team for quite a long time. 00;00;23;15 – 00;00;37;26 Dave Excited for this one. This is the Web fly swing podcast ratio. The best places to travel to for fly fishing. How to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Our guest today is Chris, who is my right hand man. 00;00;37;26 – 00;00;57;11 Dave Where Fly, swing. And we’re going to spotlight his recent trip to Blue Bonefish Lodge in Belize. We’re going to find out today what that moment was like when everything changed. When you step on the flats and he did for the first time. This is exciting. Hear the story. Why casting at home doesn’t prepare you fully for all the saltwater conditions. 00;00;57;11 – 00;01;16;23 Dave We’re going to talk about that today. We’re also going to get into the exact eat on Chris’s first bonefish and we’re going to talk about that rod that he was using to land that fish Pescador on the fly shot out there. And we’re also going to get into some tarpon, some missed shots and what he learned on his first trip fishing in Belize. 00;01;17;06 – 00;01;33;18 Dave When you get into travel gear rise and how Chris handled his first saltwater set up. If you want to follow everything you can, head over to VI swing dot com right now. We can have a blog post there that sheds light on everything we have going. If you want to follow up here, you can follow up with Chris at five swing dot com. 00;01;34;01 – 00;01;37;29 Dave All right, here we go. Let’s get into it. How you doing, Chris? 00;01;38;11 – 00;01;39;19 Chris Good day to. Thanks for having me on. 00;01;39;27 – 00;01;57;15 Dave Yeah. Yeah. This is exciting, man. This is something that we’ve been talking about for a while. We’re kind of introducing you to the. The wet fly swing audience here behind the scenes with what we do. You work with kind of on the kind of the sponsorship side. We’re also going to be getting you more into the pro and I as we go. 00;01;57;16 – 00;02;13;27 Dave The hope is that you’ll be doing more, more stuff with, you know, as we go. But just want to introduce you to everybody out there. You’re with us and all that. But we’re also going to talk about this trip to Belize that you went to recently. But maybe give us a heads up. What’s going on? We’ve heard a little bit about the you’re in Colorado. 00;02;13;27 – 00;02;20;03 Dave We’ve heard a little bit about the snowpack in Colorado. How is that is there any good thing any good out there? 00;02;20;10 – 00;02;37;29 Chris It’s actually raining right now. I’m looking out my window and it’s rain. But it was a pretty dry one winter. A little freaky as far as snowpack goes. I’m a skier. I think the chance to ski this year, I kind of took a year off, but it was not a good year. So it ended up being a good time to take a year off from skiing, that’s for sure. 00;02;38;09 – 00;02;56;18 Dave Roy Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we’re hoping for the best. You know, again, we’ve all been dealing with this out West occasionally, right? But I think we’ll figure it out. We’ll make it through. But we also want to talk this trip. I want to maybe started off on that because you went down to Belize. And this is a place that I actually haven’t been to yet. 00;02;56;18 – 00;03;07;04 Dave Blue, bonefish, Belize. And we’re maybe doing some other cool stuff with them this year. But talk about that. What was what was it like getting down to believe? Had you been there before or was this your first time? 00;03;07;09 – 00;03;27;03 Chris Yeah, I had been down there where I was a little bit younger. I went with like a family vacation, so I didn’t do any, you know, flats fishing or anything like that. It was mostly, you know, snorkeling. I did some reef fishing, but it was kind of family vacation stuff. But yeah, I know we got to go down there for, you know, a week and hang out with Chris and Mary at the Blue Bone Fish Lodge and know it was awesome. 00;03;27;25 – 00;03;38;26 Chris Like you said, I’m in Colorado, so it’s pretty easy to get down there. You can fly direct through Southwest or you can, you know, I think on the way back we stopped in Houston, but pretty easy flight as far as, you know, international travel is concerned. 00;03;39;05 – 00;03;46;09 Dave Yeah, right. That’s right. So you just saw so direct flight from Colorado right down. And what was the flight? What’s the what’s the length of flight? 00;03;46;22 – 00;03;48;01 Chris I think like four and a half hours. 00;03;48;01 – 00;03;48;26 Dave Yeah, that’s not bad. 00;03;48;26 – 00;04;08;09 Chris And then so that’s you fly in the city and then, you know, you got to go through the customs and that and it’s a small little airport. And then you actually catch a puddle jumper from San Pedro Hurdle from a Belize City to San Pedro, which is where the lodges and, you know, it’s like a 15 minute, you know, pull a puddle jumper or flight that’s, you know, pretty cool. 00;04;08;09 – 00;04;09;28 Dave Like a little like a pretty small plane. 00;04;10;05 – 00;04;14;20 Chris Yeah. You know, if the flights fold or even have someone like, set up shotgun next to the pillow. Oh, cool. 00;04;14;20 – 00;04;16;07 Dave But how many people were on the. 00;04;16;07 – 00;04;26;27 Chris I think it was like eight or ten, I think, right around there. So but yeah, it’s a super short flight. You kind of get a, you know, bird’s eye view of the island. Oh, that’s cool. You know, you land and yeah, it’s pretty cool. 00;04;27;21 – 00;04;39;24 Dave Wow, that’s amazing. So you come in, so you get on this little puddle jumper, you see it all as you’re coming in and then you’re landing, right? What’s that like when you’re landing on the is it a massive island or is it fairly poor? Fairly small. 00;04;40;01 – 00;04;56;06 Chris No, it’s you know, you when you’re coming down, you can, you know, the runways in the middle of this little stretch of land. And, you know, you’re coming in and you get the front seats of the landing, too. So, you know, you’re looking out the window while you land. And I have flying doesn’t really bug me. So it was kind of it was kind of cool for me. 00;04;56;20 – 00;05;01;21 Chris But yeah, seeing them kind of line everything up and, you know, lands. Yeah. 00;05;02;02 – 00;05;11;05 Dave That’s so cool. Yeah. I haven’t done a ton of the flights with these small planes, but when we went into Togiak, we had one of those. We landed on a actually a gravel. Oh yeah. Strip. Was this gravel or was this paved. 00;05;11;09 – 00;05;15;02 Chris No, this is a proper, you know, asphalt landing strip. 00;05;15;08 – 00;05;20;21 Dave Gotcha. So you land there, you get out. Now you’re, you’re and then you hop in a car. What is it to the lodge? 00;05;20;28 – 00;05;44;18 Chris Yeah. They, they pick you up and that was, you know, it’s kind of the airport is kind of like right in the middle of town. So it’s pretty you know, there’s it’s pretty busy. But, you know, we walked right up and they picked us out. There’s actually another group that landed with us. They weren’t on the same flight or anything like that, but we kind of just congregated in the same area and they picked us up and it’s like a 15 minute ride in like a van to the south side of the island. 00;05;44;18 – 00;06;01;20 Chris So it’s which is completely different than, you know, the middle of the island or even like the north side. It’s pretty like remote, I guess, like quiet, very quiet. You know, there’s some other, you know, hotels and the houses along the beach and stuff, but it’s definitely not as busy. And, you know, you pretty much take a dirt road. 00;06;01;20 – 00;06;06;06 Chris You know what you get out of town and, you know, you’re pretty much on the south side of the island, which is pretty sweet. 00;06;06;16 – 00;06;11;10 Dave And then you get there and then you settle in and have dinner. What time of day is that when you get in there? 00;06;11;13 – 00;06;28;12 Chris Yeah, I think it’s a lot. It was a long day. I think we all got in, you know, at like 4:00 Billie’s time and I think there’s Central Time. So somewhere time zone to the U.S.. Yeah. I got in and met Chris, who’s the owner. You know, talked with him for a bit because we had talked a little bit before that. 00;06;28;12 – 00;07;05;25 Chris So we kind of, you know, socialize and, you know, got to see where we stayed. We stayed and they have these cabanas or not a cabin. It’s like a condo story and they’re unreal. It’s a sea king. Beds, TV, you know, big bathroom, really, really nice. So we got a beer Belkin’s the the local beer there that you’re going to that are Landshark are the two that I was drinking a lot of And then you know you got to meet the people you’re there with right it’s a lot so you know I think there were four or five other groups there and we actually flew in when the NFL playoffs are going on. 00;07;06;06 – 00;07;20;16 Chris I’m a Broncos fan. So the Broncos were actually playing that that day. So we got settled in, had appetizers and was, you know, watching the Broncos for a little bit and you know what up for dinner and you know it’s a homemade meal so it’s really cool stuff. 00;07;20;27 – 00;07;28;00 Dave Wow. Wow. So pretty much just getting the lay of the land, kind of enjoying the I guess, the weather. What was that like? 00;07;28;06 – 00;07;45;25 Chris Oh, it was perfect. It was perfect. You know, I think it was in the, you know, high seventies, eighties, you know, and especially coming from Colorado in January. I love that feeling of, you know, because you got to wear pants on the flight out, you know, because it’s so cold and then when you land and you kind of walk through the, you know, the terminal and it’s super hot and humid, I love that feeling. 00;07;46;01 – 00;07;50;19 Chris You know, that’s one of my favorite things about vacation going somewhere warm in the winter. 00;07;50;28 – 00;07;57;01 Dave Yeah, that’s right. Wow. So you did that. So you get there and then and then the next day, are you getting ready to head out fishing? 00;07;57;14 – 00;08;13;15 Chris Yeah, I think they it depends on there’s a couple different things you could do. I was actually there with my wife, so we did like, a couples package, which is cool. They were also, you know, so you can do like three days of fishing or you can pretty much do it however you want. So some guys were fishing fish every single day. 00;08;13;18 – 00;08;22;26 Chris But yeah, I think I only did three days there just because I was with my wife. So, you know, wanted to spend some time with her. But yeah, next day went fishing and yeah, got after it right away. 00;08;23;06 – 00;08;25;29 Dave You did. And did you. And you guys found some bonefish. 00;08;26;14 – 00;08;43;19 Chris Yeah. That first morning, you know, going out there. I’d try to practice my pass a little bit, you know, and, you know, I’m not a great caster. I’m not terrible. Probably like a C minus. And, you know, I practice out in the field and, you know, I was shooting my line like, you know, 30, 40 feet type of thing, and. 00;08;43;19 – 00;08;45;22 Dave Doing it for the little hoop sort of thing, trying to. Yeah. 00;08;45;23 – 00;09;00;22 Chris Yep. And that’s, that’s what I was practicing and then but once you get out there it’s so different, you know, So we kind of spent the first part of the morning kind of getting like my legs underneath me because, you know, you account for the, the boat’s bobbin and you know, when swirling. So that stuff you can’t like recreate. 00;09;00;22 – 00;09;21;09 Chris But yeah, it’s kind of took a morning just to kind of get my cast a little more dialed in. I actually had some you know we kind of looked for some Kermit and some tarpon in the morning. We saw some tarpon, but no permit that morning. And then, you know, they give you a lunch, you know, so had lunch while we went to, you know, another zone and that’s when we got on. 00;09;21;09 – 00;09;39;01 Chris The Bonefish was like later in the afternoon when, you know, I didn’t realize so much of it is dependent on the sunlight, you know, because you can’t you know, you’re looking for the fish or if it’s overcast or rainy or anything like that, you can’t see them. So, you know, the afternoon provides some good sun. And yeah, we got some bonefish that afternoon and that was my first bonefish on the fourth. 00;09;39;01 – 00;09;39;27 Chris Yeah, it was sweet. 00;09;39;29 – 00;09;41;27 Dave What was it like? What was it like it and your first. 00;09;42;01 – 00;09;58;10 Chris You know, it was so I had a couple hits before that and I just missed them. I didn’t, you know, didn’t keep stripping and, you know, whatever. I messed up. And, you know, Darwin, my the guide was kind of like coached me through it. And then that yelled, I think it was like my third hit. I finally got it. 00;09;58;10 – 00;10;11;23 Chris And it was it totally surprised me because, you know, it wasn’t anything crazy, but it was like only like a 14 inch bonefish. But they have so much. Yeah, they have so much power, though. So that thing is, you know, we’re on a few little runs and, you know, when I finally got it to my hand, it was. 00;10;11;23 – 00;10;12;13 Chris It was awesome. 00;10;12;23 – 00;10;18;03 Dave Yeah, that’s it. Yeah. The thing about Bonefish is that even the small ones are just. I mean, it’s like a steelhead on their right. They just tear. 00;10;18;03 – 00;10;20;15 Chris Yeah, Yeah. You can tell that thing lives in the ocean, that’s for sure. Yeah. 00;10;21;02 – 00;10;26;23 Dave Yeah. Wow. So you get your first bonefish. What is that? What does that feel like? It in your first one? Now you’ve actually it was. 00;10;27;01 – 00;10;42;19 Chris It was cool because you kind of feel the pressure a little bit when you’re you know, because they’re calling out, you know, the how far away, you know, 60 feet at 11:00. And, you know, you go from, you know, not doing anything to you got to be, you know, turn it on pretty quick. So it was it was a little bit of pressure. 00;10;42;19 – 00;10;47;06 Chris So it was kind of like a relief to get the monkey off my back a little bit and get the skunk out of the boat toy. 00;10;47;12 – 00;10;53;19 Dave Were they kind of like moving? Did you have to were they feeding or how were you were you dropping? You’re thinking the line down to them. Yeah. 00;10;53;19 – 00;11;11;10 Chris So this that one I caught, that first one I was we actually saw them tailing and, you know, a shallow section and I put a good gas on them and yet ended up just, you know, because you’re stripping it in and, you know, I ended up just taking it on the strip and, you know, and then that’s you’re off to the races. 00;11;11;10 – 00;11;13;21 Dave Wow. What what fly where he is on that one. 00;11;14;03 – 00;11;23;17 Chris It was actually a crazy Charlie It was actually when I tied which was which was really cool I think crazy Charlie with with like the beach and ice. 00;11;23;17 – 00;11;32;02 Dave Yeah. Big chain. Okay. Crazy Charlie. Wow. So you get your first bone, Now you’ve got, you know how to do it. And did you guys just keep fishing for Bonefish that day? 00;11;32;05 – 00;11;50;28 Chris Yeah, it got a little rainy. He actually. What? You know, I think everybody usually comes back around three. He let me stay out a little bit later because we were we were trying to get some good shots at him. And then, you know, they’ll kind of weather turn and then, you know, after that, it’s, you know, you get back and, you know, everybody else is kind of getting back and, you know, it’s time for a beer. 00;11;50;28 – 00;11;52;18 Dave And so I just had appetizers. 00;11;52;18 – 00;12;10;24 Chris Yeah. That’s the cool thing about Blue Bonefish, too, is they they always have you know, they’re it’s really inviting and it’s like very communal. So afterwards, hanging out like in like the, you know, the overhang, like the patio area, the TV out there and beers and just kind of talking. So. 00;12;10;26 – 00;12;16;13 Dave So you’re hanging out with I kind of everybody just kind of chilling and just enjoying the I mean, you’re in Belize, right? 00;12;16;21 – 00;12;37;15 Chris Yeah, exactly. Toes in the sand having a beer and then the staff there’s, you know, awesome. I don’t know what you would call his role. His name, Steve, my guy Steve, he’s like the head of hospitality. He’s, you know, super involved around the property and stuff. And pretty much as soon as he stepping off the boat, you’re, you know, they’re taking your rods, you know, and they’re washing them down. 00;12;37;27 – 00;12;52;04 Chris You know, you’re, you know, and then you’re walk it up to that, you know, you go get changed, you whatever. But I, you know, walked up and, you know, I had a beer in my hand or they have, you know, rum punch. And then that you know, they’re bring in their brand, you know, appetizers and chips and salsa. 00;12;52;04 – 00;12;59;13 Chris I think we have like fritters one day, you know, So the appetizers in the food are, you know, pretty good, too, after a long day out there. 00;12;59;25 – 00;13;17;11 Dave So good. So you’re just basically just chillin, enjoying it and then. Yeah. And so dinner I mean, what is the how do you describe Belize, I guess that you’re out there, you know, give us that picture of are there lots of other boats, people out there you’re seeing, is this the only lodge out there? What what does that look like. 00;13;17;21 – 00;13;38;05 Chris On that south side? It’s pretty you know, it’s pretty quiet. You know, I would say like in the middle of San Pedro, it’s pretty busy. You know, it’s it’s a cool little city. But that south side, pretty quiet, which was so nice that, you know, you’re kind of just out there by yourself. I know there’s a few other lodges out there, but on that south side, I don’t know of any there. 00;13;38;05 – 00;13;50;01 Chris And then diners all at the lodge, it’s all inclusive there. So, you know, there’s really if you don’t want to leave, you don’t have to. There’s really, you know, if you wanted to go, if you want to go explore, you can. But really, if you didn’t want to leave, you could stay there the whole time. 00;13;50;03 – 00;13;59;06 Dave Yeah, Yeah, I know Chris was talking about it’s kind of a like family, right? I mean, he runs it. It’s kind of you get this family atmosphere, which is kind of the cool. Another cool part of it. 00;13;59;07 – 00;14;16;23 Chris Yeah, that’s kind of one part I was a surprised on. I’m a pretty introverted person, you know, I’ll talk to, you know, whoever. But, you know, I’m not trying to, you know, I’m not going to be the first one talking. And I was a little not as attuned, but I wondered how it was going to be, you know, hanging out with like ten other people that you don’t know. 00;14;17;07 – 00;14;34;00 Chris And I kind of thought, you know, I didn’t know. I would like talk to as many people as I did. And, you know, by the end of the trip, you know, one guy was actually from Colorado and and I exchanged numbers and, you know, oh, cool. We’re probably in a together at some point. But yeah, I know it’s I thought that part was like really cool. 00;14;34;00 – 00;14;51;14 Chris And that was the part that surprised me the most. And I think it’s because, you know, it’s almost like, like an RV park or, you know, any other kind of group. You know, everybody’s, everybody’s like minded. So, you know, you’re kind of all on the same wavelength as far as like, you know, what’s you know, personality types and yeah, at least what you like to do, which is fishing. 00;14;51;14 – 00;14;51;25 Chris So. 00;14;51;25 – 00;14;56;21 Dave Right, exactly. Yeah. We’re all in it for the same thing, right? Fishing. That’s what kind of brings us all together. 00;14;57;00 – 00;15;15;23 Chris Yeah. And it was cool to kind of just hear, you know, they’re all from all over the country, you know? So there are two guys there from Arkansas, and they were telling me about trips I had done or they had done. And I, you know, I told them about a trip. I did. And so it’s cool kind of comparing notes on, you know, where everybody’s going and and, you know, kind of give me some ideas of, you know, maybe some stuff I’d want to do. 00;15;16;01 – 00;15;23;11 Dave Nice, nice. So and then that day, too. So it sounds like you had three days of fishing. What did you guys do? So, yeah, we. 00;15;23;15 – 00;15;31;24 Chris When we were down there, the weather was kind of a little turbulent. I don’t know if you remember, this was back in January, but the Southeast was getting, like, pounded with snow. 00;15;32;09 – 00;15;33;04 Dave Oh, yeah, I remember that. 00;15;33;04 – 00;15;51;20 Chris I don’t know if you remember that. You know, that that system actually worked its way down. So we actually took an off day or I took an off day fishing was the second day or so. I guess the third day, technically we were there. So we actually took a day off and part of our like couples package was a massage. 00;15;52;15 – 00;16;03;12 Chris So yeah. And so my, you know, my wife and I got a massage and, you know, we didn’t have to leave the property. We got a massage there. That was awesome. After having to, you know, travel and fly and, you know, you’re so. 00;16;03;12 – 00;16;06;28 Dave You got a massage. So they do this at the lodge. Do they have services? 00;16;06;28 – 00;16;23;26 Chris Yeah. Yeah. You know, I guess I’m. I’ve been a few places. I’ve, you know, I had been Belize before, but it was one of the nicer places I’ve ever stayed at as far as, you know, accommodations. The staff, like I said, is so friendly. The person who was doing the massage was super nice and she. Yeah, she had some. 00;16;24;05 – 00;16;29;16 Chris Yeah, I don’t get a whole lot of massages, but it was really nice to get one after flying and stuff. Gosh. 00;16;29;16 – 00;16;37;29 Dave So you have so that’s they basically tourist day three whatever you’re getting this massage now you’re really really raw And then then the next day. What do you got going next? 00;16;37;29 – 00;16;56;07 Chris Yeah, we went, we went. So we went and it was also nice. It took an off day that day because like I said, that weather pattern came through, so it’s pretty overcast and a little tough, tougher conditions as far as fishing went. And then after that we got back out there, I had a different guide and that was it was an exciting day. 00;16;56;07 – 00;17;15;00 Chris I actually didn’t I didn’t catch fish, but man, I had a bunch of opportunities that if I, you know, was a little bit more seasoned and, you know, my first fall trip, I think I could have gotten more a few fish more efficient. The boat, the big one was the one I still think about was a tarp. And we we went, you know, kind of cruised by these docks. 00;17;15;00 – 00;17;21;01 Chris You know, that they know they hang out at. And I had a couple, you know, follows, you know you know. 00;17;21;02 – 00;17;21;23 Dave If you really happen. 00;17;22;08 – 00;17;41;08 Chris To know and they were, you know, I don’t know they were saying like 5 to 7 feet, some of them. And, you know, stripping them in. And then you get in close and they would see the boat and they would spook and get out of there. And then, you know, this is my you know, you know, seventh or eighth shot at is the same group of carbon that’s cruising by these docks kind of thing. 00;17;41;21 – 00;17;50;05 Chris And it rolled on my fly on the top. And I was at the end of my trip and I just didn’t have enough left know arm to strip. It could, you know, because I was at the end and I missed them. 00;17;50;15 – 00;17;51;04 Dave No kidding. 00;17;51;04 – 00;17;52;02 Chris Yeah, but it was. 00;17;52;06 – 00;17;53;28 Dave So you missed a giant tarpon. 00;17;53;29 – 00;18;08;20 Chris Yes. Yes, I did. And I still think about that one. But it was it was it was so cool to see see that roll on it, you know, coming out of the water and rolling on my fly. Yeah, It was it was still cool. And, you know, I, I got some shots at permit later to sell. 00;18;08;25 – 00;18;14;25 Dave Oh, you did. So you got some a permit too. Yeah. That’s Yeah. Well and what Rod were using. Do you switch your rod when you went to the Tarpon. 00;18;15;06 – 00;18;31;09 Chris Yeah. We were using a ten way. I forget what service rod it was. All of they use all of this stuff from what I remember. But yeah, ten way. And so yeah, I had even really casted a ten weight before I was down there. My, a day was the biggest ride I had really used Well. 00;18;31;09 – 00;18;35;17 Dave And what was it And you had a passenger or on the fly Rod. Right. You’re using what was that, What was the way to that run. 00;18;35;18 – 00;18;37;12 Chris Yeah, that was in a way. 00;18;38;07 – 00;18;38;26 Dave That was neat way. 00;18;38;26 – 00;18;41;18 Chris Yeah. Yep. And that was my that was like my bone fish rod. 00;18;41;18 – 00;18;47;28 Dave Is that was a bonefish. Yeah. Yeah. What was that? So tell us about the. PESCA Was that a how many pieces was that? Like a. 00;18;48;21 – 00;18;50;04 Chris Six section travel rod. 00;18;50;04 – 00;18;50;28 Dave Succession? Yeah. 00;18;51;10 – 00;19;08;11 Chris And that was super sleek. As you know, when you get into the puddle jumper, you know, they’ll usually let you fly, carry it on down there. But I kind of read on some different, you know, Reddit forums that, you know, once you get on the panel jumper, they’re going to make you take it out of your backpack and then this fishing rod tube laying it around. 00;19;09;04 – 00;19;23;21 Chris And I just had my and the six piece stuff, you know, it’s about as tall as my, you know, just a normal backpack. So I just had it in my water bottle holder and it sticks up about two inches above my backpack. So actually what I was getting on, the guy stopped me was like, Hey, they let you carry this on. 00;19;24;01 – 00;19;36;14 Chris And I was like, I was like, Yeah. And was like, Oh, well, it’s like we usually make you take these out and put them underneath the, you know, underneath the plane because like, you know, it’s so small. He’s like, I’ll, you know, just keep it. So I never even had to like part with my rod, which was really, really nice. 00;19;36;24 – 00;19;44;22 Dave There you go. So and that was the that’s the whole thing, you know, that Jeff talks about is that there would have been a four piece rod. It would have stuck out way out of your pack. 00;19;44;28 – 00;19;59;25 Chris Oh, yeah, yeah. No, there was there were a bunch of guys there that, you know, they were all, you know, sweat and if their how their rod was going to cause you essentially what, you fly into Belize City, you’re getting on the bubble jumpers, they put you on a conveyor belt, but the conveyor belt just goes straight outside like you can see outside. 00;20;00;04 – 00;20;05;24 Chris So you’re like, oh, man, I hope my rod gets on the right on the puddle jumper here. Also, this trip is going to be not as cool. 00;20;06;02 – 00;20;09;07 Dave Oh, my God. Right. Yeah. So? So that all went good. And then. 00;20;09;08 – 00;20;09;27 Chris Yeah, it was sweet. 00;20;10;12 – 00;20;23;26 Dave So in the end, you had the in the. PESCA was the eight way. What was it like fishing? So I did see some bonefish at least one photo of you with with a nice bonefish that you caught. What was it like, you know, using the rod, the eight weight on those bones? 00;20;24;02 – 00;20;41;27 Chris Oh, it was really cool. You know, it’s a little bit faster action, I think. And I was actually talking with my guide about that and he kind of let, you know, I was just talking about actions and what he likes. He’s like, I like this action right here. And it was awesome, man. I like I said, I don’t have that was the heaviest rod I’ve ever casted. 00;20;41;27 – 00;21;02;26 Chris But you when you get one of those double hauls down, you know, it’s such a good, tactile feeling. I was I think I told you earlier that kind of reminded me of like screwing up a baseball or hit a golf ball perfectly where you don’t even feel it. It’s just all, you know, the the rods doing all the work and, you know, and when, you know, you shoot, then you shoot all your line and yeah, it’s a it’s a really good feeling. 00;21;02;28 – 00;21;09;16 Dave Right when you get a good cast. And then that’s the other nice thing. Right. You had some wind it sound like out there a little bit. So you’re having to battle the wind. 00;21;09;17 – 00;21;25;25 Chris Yeah, a little bit. And that was, and that was really cool. The guides, I think, you know, Darwin was the the guide I fished with a couple of times and he was awesome. He really got, he kind of like pulled me aside and like we did a little work on my cast in like by that third day of my cast was so dialed. 00;21;26;02 – 00;21;27;13 Chris It was awesome, really. 00;21;27;22 – 00;21;30;21 Dave So he gave you a couple what he tell you to get you dialed in? 00;21;30;22 – 00;21;44;03 Chris Yeah, You know, and I maybe I was watching the wrong YouTube videos because, you know, they talk about, you know, just, you know, straight back and straight forward on the double double hall. But they don’t you know, you got a tower behind you with your guide, you know, on the on the stand your. 00;21;44;04 – 00;21;44;19 Dave Pony or. 00;21;44;21 – 00;22;01;24 Chris Pushing you around so, you know, getting out wider and then, you know and he really enforced like it’s like your own timing. You know, I can’t really tell you on your own timing, but you just see the like, you know, you make sure you come to a stop feel, you know, and you just kind of explained the feel really well. 00;22;02;20 – 00;22;08;05 Chris And yeah, by the end I was, you know, 80 or 90 foot casts and, you know, I was I had some pretty good casts by the end of it. 00;22;08;15 – 00;22;09;06 Dave And you were good. 00;22;09;25 – 00;22;10;06 Chris Yeah. 00;22;10;17 – 00;22;13;03 Dave Well, now, was this your first time? This is your first time Bone fishing, right? 00;22;13;06 – 00;22;17;03 Chris This is my first time. Salt, fish, fly fishing, anything? Yeah. You had had. 00;22;17;03 – 00;22;29;19 Dave Been to Belize, but not. But not for fishing. Yeah. Gotcha. What was the couple of things that you, you know, maybe some tips you tell somebody that’s new if they’re doing their first trip that you’d get, you know, anything that you learned that was helpful. 00;22;29;24 – 00;22;58;00 Chris Yeah, I guess. You know, I would definitely still practice from the field. I know I said you can’t really, like, replicate, you know, the boat bobbing up and down in the surf, in the waves or the wind kind of swirling, but just getting our feel for what it feels like to cast that much, you know, line. You know, I’m in Colorado, so like, you know, January and probably last time I fly first was, you know, October and all summer I was using like a three weight rod, you know, fish and small creeks. 00;22;58;00 – 00;23;17;25 Chris So, you know, I was just roll I you know, I had even put out a long cast in a long time. So getting a feel like that. And, you know, I would definitely recommend getting some kind of guide the DIY bone fish. And I ended up doing a little bit of that later. But being on the boat, it’s such a nicer intro to the Species, that’s for sure. 00;23;18;05 – 00;23;21;22 Dave So you did a little DIY? I tried to do it. Just get out there on your own and cast off the duck. 00;23;21;22 – 00;23;39;20 Chris Yeah. So after that third day I caught a I kind of 20 inch bone fish and I was like, It was sweet. Got into my backing. I don’t think I’d ever had a fish get me into my backing before and after We actually stayed down with the blue Bonefish folks for a week, and we actually stayed another week afterwards. 00;23;40;03 – 00;23;41;27 Chris And then that’s when I did the DIY stuff. 00;23;42;11 – 00;24;01;05 Dave Nice. So yeah, we’re looking at now a little just a shot of the blue Bonefish Lodge here and they got some good photos here of of some of the of the area. So this is I guess now it’s cool it must be cool to come look at this right Because you’ve been there and you’re kind of like, okay, I know this. 00;24;01;06 – 00;24;06;13 Dave This is the place I’ve been to. What is that kind of like now that you’re you’ve been to it, you kind of like you look at that fish and you’re like. 00;24;06;24 – 00;24;10;19 Chris Damn, Yeah, that’s. It’s definitely it. I told you I. 00;24;10;20 – 00;24;11;18 Dave Stand a little bit better. 00;24;11;18 – 00;24;27;06 Chris Yeah, I told my wife it’s going to be hard going back to, you know, the freshwater stuff after, you know, I, after I got done with those guys, you know, because the fall games just, you know, it’s just a whole nother beast. And whole nother type of fishing. 00;24;27;14 – 00;24;43;28 Dave Yeah, it is. It is. Right, Right. So you’re you always hear that. You know, I think that, you know, again, I haven’t even got to anywhere, you know, at that level. But you hear about the Salt Lake, once you start doing it, you know, you start the trout and then you start slowly, you test it out and you see and you feel like it’s something you would you would do again. 00;24;44;04 – 00;25;02;26 Chris Oh, I don’t already. Trying to ski my way back back down there, try to get some kind of salt in my life. Yeah. Even, you know, even just getting shots at permit and seeing how how big they are, you know, And it’s so technical and, you know, hard at times that it just makes you want to come back, or at least for me, that’s how I am. 00;25;02;26 – 00;25;06;07 Chris It makes me want I just I, I get back down there so I can go try it again. 00;25;06;10 – 00;25;12;16 Dave So yeah, because it’s the hardest, right. You hear that permit is like pretty much one of the hardest fly species to get. 00;25;12;16 – 00;25;16;14 Chris Yeah, and I see why now. I see why now after again down there. 00;25;16;22 – 00;25;23;29 Dave Time and then tarp and of course or you know I’ve heard that a lot to people say that Tarpon is if they had to have one fish, it would be Tarpon. 00;25;23;29 – 00;25;30;11 Chris I was actually talking with my guide about that. And, you know, I was asking what he did on his off days. And what he does is he goes in these like tarpon hundred. 00;25;30;12 – 00;25;39;25 Dave Pieces for Tarpon. Yeah, yeah. It’s pretty cool. And then you’ve got, of course, Bonefish, which is the other cool. And those are the three are there’s other species potentially out there. They talk about that at all. 00;25;40;05 – 00;25;58;00 Chris Those are the three that you’re targeting. You know, on my when I went out DIY, I caught like a, you know, a couple of red snapper. I caught another another fish. I forgot what it was called another like reef fish. But those are the ones you’re going after and those are the one you’re targeting I guess, on the fly. 00;25;58;06 – 00;26;07;12 Dave Yeah, Yeah, those are the big ones. The big three, right? Those are the. So you get that and then you’re there and then you were on your own a couple and you stayed a little bit longer too, right after that. 00;26;07;16 – 00;26;24;17 Chris Yeah, we stayed a week after we got done there. So we, we also went snorkeling one day. So, you know, and that was really cool because a lot of those big guys, you know, you can go through any like tour group or whatever, but you know, the boat size is like 20 people. But with the blue Bonefish, it was just. 00;26;24;17 – 00;26;26;11 Dave So you snorkel with the blue bonefish. Yeah. 00;26;26;15 – 00;26;40;15 Chris And that’s part of like the couple stuff. And they actually do a really good job accommodating it. And, you know, I’m lucky my wife, just like hanging out on the beach and reading the book. So that’s what she was doing when I was fishing. They have a private beach with the lodge. So it’s, you know, you pretty much have a beach to yourself if you stay behind. 00;26;40;15 – 00;27;00;24 Chris But yeah, though daily what snorkeling. It was me, my wife and another guy that was staying at the lodge that, you know, signed up circled. So it was just like a three person tour essentially. Yeah. And they and they and you go in a reserve, so you have to have, you know, a guide with you. But, you know, I the guide was, you know, just hanging out with the three of us for the day. 00;27;00;24 – 00;27;01;21 Chris So, yeah, it was cool. 00;27;01;24 – 00;27;06;20 Dave Just hanging out. And what did you see? What was this snorkeling that you jump in there and what do you like What are you looking at? 00;27;07;09 – 00;27;08;11 Chris Oh, man, it’s are you. 00;27;08;11 – 00;27;10;22 Dave Seeing are you seeing like the tarpon and stuff and. 00;27;10;22 – 00;27;31;06 Chris But any tarpon I saw that was about as big as I was though that, you know, it made me melt underwater. Yeah, but you’re snorkeling at Marine Reserve, and I didn’t know this. This is all regurgitated facts, but Belize has the second largest Great Barrier Reef in the world. So the surfing’s really, really good I a bunch of huge barracuda. 00;27;31;17 – 00;27;51;24 Chris There’s a lot of new sharks around. But those are like they kind of look like catfish. I’m sorry. You know, you’re not really too scared of them. They’re like bottom feeders, I believe. Crush and shells in college, the shark shells and stuff. I saw that huge permit for a bunch of sea turtles, which was cool. And then all the, you know, colorful little reef fish snorkeling or, you know, swimming around the coral. 00;27;52;00 – 00;28;05;02 Dave Or all the coral. Wow. So you get that in What was the, you know, like, again, back to Belize? What was that when you get there, you you had been there, but was there a moment when you’re like, oh, man, this is why people come to police? 00;28;05;03 – 00;28;24;21 Chris Oh, yeah, it was man, that even that first night, it was just so nice to get off the plane and have a beer. It just, you know, you’re looking at, you know, this private beach, you know, and it’s the sunset and and, you know, you got a drink in your hand and yeah, it’s yeah. And especially going from January in Colorado, I was in flip flops and shorts and a t shirt. 00;28;24;21 – 00;28;49;16 Chris So just the weather difference just felt so great. And yeah, just the properties like immaculate I would say out there. So yeah, it was, it was really, really cool. And there is a couple of times, you know, on the, you know, out on the flats just kind of like looking around, you know, watching stingrays go by and, you know, sardines bubble in and all the birds and yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s a really cool spot. 00;28;49;16 – 00;29;12;09 Dave Pest control on the Fly offers a full spectrum of fly fishing gear for any angler at any budget by bring in high performance rods directly to the angler, they eliminate the middleman mark markup saving you time and money. The top tiered El Ray series is designed for serious anglers with the El Rey g6 being the most packable high-performance rod on the market and most anglers who try the G6 can’t believe it is a six piece rod. 00;29;12;09 – 00;29;30;06 Dave It performs just like a four piece. There’s no difference in performance whether you’re fishing local streams or embarking on your next adventure. Across the world, the G6 delivers precision and power. Wherever you go, you can get 10% off your next order. Right now, if you use the code wet fly swing at checkout. That’s pescatore on the fly dot com. 00;29;30;06 – 00;29;52;10 Dave Use the code wet fly swing for 10% off. Never fly without your g six. Discover the El Rey series and more at Pescatore on the fly up. So you have I mean yeah obviously you’ve got just being in this tropical place right You’ve got that whole environment but you have this really cool lodge that’s out there that sounds like it’s pretty remote, you know, there’s not. 00;29;52;15 – 00;30;05;23 Dave You got your own little spot out there. Yeah. And where are the guides and what was it like with the guys? You know, these are native guides that are taking you out. Are they? Yeah. So what’s that like? Are they, are they pretty. I’m, I’m guessing they could speak pretty good English out there. Oh yeah. 00;30;05;26 – 00;30;25;05 Chris So everyone speaks English very well in Belize. I think it was an English colony. So I think that’s why if I remember correctly. But yeah, they all speak English and they’re all super nice dudes. And I would say that for all the little girls and you can kind of tell, you know, when you land, everybody is just really happy. 00;30;25;16 – 00;30;41;20 Chris And I know that’s kind of a cliche thing to say, but the vibes are just really, really good. Everyone’s super happy, all the locals are really nice, you know, even like, you know, you kind of get to know the people that are, you know, serving, you know, for sure at the Lodge. You know, I love the guys. All the guys at the lodge. 00;30;42;10 – 00;30;49;00 Chris I got to know them very well. But even in town, you know, you find one bar that you like and, you know, in San Pedro. Yeah. 00;30;49;09 – 00;30;54;19 Dave So you guys went into. So is that the town? So when you drop on the island is San Pedro is kind of the bigger town there. 00;30;54;20 – 00;31;08;22 Chris It’s like Yeah it’s like the city. It’s like a little little city. But it’s, you know, it’s all on this island. And you’re, you know, a lot of restaurants are out on the water, so they have a big, you know, dock out and then the restaurants on the water. So a lot of that kind of dining and stuff. 00;31;09;04 – 00;31;12;05 Dave Is that what you guys did on your other the other week you’re there? Did you just kind of. 00;31;12;07 – 00;31;29;04 Chris Oh, yeah, we just ate a bunch of seafood. My wife and I love seafood, so just eaten a bunch of seafood, you know, hanging out. But I got a couple of days or I got a couple of days to do some DIY stuff while my wife laid on the beach and read her book and hung out and yeah, so it was a fun time. 00;31;29;13 – 00;31;34;03 Dave Well, what were some of the meals you guys were eating? Like, what’s the seafood? What’s the typical. 00;31;34;18 – 00;31;53;27 Chris Man? Well, at the lodge, it’s all home cooked meals. So, you know, I would say we ate the best at that week at the lodge, which was, you know, you’re getting breakfast every morning, you know, and and that’s kind of fun, too, because you’re eating with everyone to at the lodge. So you wake up and have breakfast and, you know, everybody’s kind of buzzing because, you know, we’re going fishing. 00;31;54;02 – 00;32;20;09 Chris And then that was like breakfast sandwiches, us pancakes, you know, whatever traditional, you know, an omelet, you know, that kind of stuff. And lunch, we, you know, it’s kind of, you know, a sandwich or whatever they, you know, kind of pack. And then dinner was then we had, oh, man, what did we have? We had, I think, the best meal we had was this coconut wahoo curry. 00;32;20;19 – 00;32;21;08 Chris Oh, wow. 00;32;21;08 – 00;32;23;00 Dave Coconut, wahoo curry. 00;32;23;00 – 00;32;38;24 Chris Yeah. And like they, they actually so that you can do like more than fly fishing there if you one day. So these two guys I met from Arkansas were actually down there and they did a day of deep sea fishing. They got the boat and everything to accommodate that kind of stuff. If you want to do one day that. 00;32;38;27 – 00;32;40;03 Dave So you go do deep sea, too. 00;32;40;04 – 00;32;49;09 Chris Yeah, I didn’t do any of that. But those guys did. And they brought home this law who that was, and it had to have been set six or seven feet. It was huge. Yeah. 00;32;49;09 – 00;32;52;21 Dave And Oahu is. And what is Oahu is a it’s like a it almost. 00;32;52;21 – 00;33;00;03 Chris Looks like a like a barracuda on walls. Okay. Maybe I’m going to get laughed at on that one. 00;33;00;04 – 00;33;02;15 Dave But. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It does look like a bear. 00;33;02;17 – 00;33;04;06 Chris Yeah, it’s kind of toothy. Yeah. 00;33;04;07 – 00;33;05;18 Dave Yeah. But. 00;33;05;18 – 00;33;16;07 Chris But, you know, and like wahoo tacos, you know, that’s kind of like the only, like the chain. That’s the only place I’d really heard of that. They’re like, Yeah, there you go. 00;33;16;19 – 00;33;26;19 Dave There you go. Yeah, that’s Oahu. It was looking at Oahu, and it’s got it does look like Barracuda, but then it’s head. You see the eye, it looks like. Definitely more. Yeah. That’s amazing. 00;33;26;28 – 00;33;40;29 Chris Yeah. And so they, they caught that and then, you know, that night we were that’s what it was. And that was the wahoo that was in the curry. So and that was the that’s one of the best meals I’ve ever had. Like not even just that vacation, probably like in my life, right? 00;33;41;08 – 00;33;41;15 Dave Yeah. 00;33;41;21 – 00;33;49;25 Chris I’ve never had a wahoo that for Wahoo that fresh. It was. Yeah, it was on Unreal. You could definitely tell that thing was thrown around a few hours ago. 00;33;50;04 – 00;34;03;20 Dave Yeah. So yeah basically so great food. You’ve got the wahoo. Go. And then, and then when you were when you’re out in your own, you guys basically believes you’re kind of cruisin And did you stay in another place in town when you’re the week the second week you’re there. 00;34;03;24 – 00;34;11;03 Chris Yeah. We sit down there in an Airbnb on the other side of the island but yeah. Nothing like the the lodge though. 00;34;11;17 – 00;34;11;28 Dave Really. 00;34;12;02 – 00;34;29;23 Chris Yeah. Yeah. My, my wife was, I did a good job in pressing her on that one and it was a good spot to bring her. Yeah. So she was. Yeah. You know, it’s just so nice and like you said, the area is just so close knit, like you’re having dinner with the owners. Chris and Mary, you know, every night, and they’re hanging out, you know. 00;34;29;23 – 00;34;30;28 Dave They’re there with you, hanging out. 00;34;31;06 – 00;34;44;27 Chris And you get to know the staff. Like I said, Steve is a super nice guy. You know, his son works there and he’s a cool dude. So, yeah, there it’s it is very family friendly and very, you know, close knit as far as, you know, family vibes. 00;34;44;27 – 00;34;52;04 Dave Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And then how did you guys, when you went from there up to the other north side of the how did you get up to the other side, the lodge or the other side. 00;34;52;16 – 00;35;00;20 Chris And so that, and that’s another thing. They just make day. They pick you up, you know, they’ll take you to wherever you need to go. They’ll take you to the airport. They took us to our Airbnb. 00;35;01;04 – 00;35;03;04 Dave So they just they’re just taking me around to wherever. 00;35;03;04 – 00;35;07;23 Chris Yeah. And they just took us there and it was, you know, door to door delivery, essentially. 00;35;07;24 – 00;35;15;08 Dave There you go. Yeah, there you go. So you guys get that and you get another weekend and and this was kind of you’re a little bit of the celebrate, right? You guys got married. 00;35;15;08 – 00;35;28;22 Chris It was kind of you know, we were here on our honeymoon. We were there and about not moon. So yeah, it was it was really, really cool. Yeah. And then that second week, we just kind of bopped around, you know, we went snorkeling another time, you know, it just kind of relaxed. 00;35;28;29 – 00;35;29;14 Dave Until. 00;35;29;25 – 00;35;36;20 Chris He and I got one day of what a DIY stuff it and cow and DIY which you know was a confidence booster. 00;35;36;20 – 00;35;38;00 Dave For sure Did you got one DIY. 00;35;38;00 – 00;35;40;12 Chris Fix? Yeah, yeah that was a that was what I was pretty stoked about. 00;35;40;12 – 00;35;43;18 Dave I was with that off of like the shore hat where we Yeah. 00;35;43;18 – 00;35;58;29 Chris Yeah. I was, it’s, it’s a little bit tougher seeing them, you know. And I think that’s another thing is I used to consider myself pretty good at spotting fish, you know, and it’s so different, you know, trying to see, you know, because it’s, it’s all just different silhouettes and shadows and yeah. 00;35;59;08 – 00;36;03;19 Dave What are you looking for? What are you looking for? Just a shadow or just any little thing? 00;36;03;20 – 00;36;23;16 Chris The times I could see them best is when they were rolling underwater. So you’d see a shine. But you know, little shadows moving. And if they’re, you know, going left to right, you can kind of follow them. But yeah, I just happened to see one in like a little sandy area surrounded by grass and, you know, kind of put a cast on it and cut a couple out of that hole. 00;36;23;16 – 00;36;27;28 Dave So kind of cast and then do your fly drop down towards them so they could see it. And then you just did a little strip. 00;36;28;08 – 00;36;30;28 Chris Yeah. And you’re kind of toying around with that, too, you know? 00;36;30;28 – 00;36;32;16 Dave All right. Trying to figure out what they want. 00;36;32;17 – 00;36;37;23 Chris Yeah. How long, you know, and, you know, with the guy, they’re, you know, walking yet you’re holding your hand through. 00;36;37;24 – 00;36;40;14 Dave What were they tell you? Where the guy is when you’re on the boat? Are they a little bit deeper. 00;36;40;14 – 00;36;49;25 Chris It was like, you know, hold weight and then you’d wait like 5 seconds, like, like strip strip. And then they kind of give you the cadence, that kind of thing. But. But yeah. 00;36;50;07 – 00;37;00;23 Dave Wow, That’s so cool. Well, tell me this. I want to go back to the fly swing because I think that this is pretty cool story. I basically talk about that because you came and you’re listening to podcast right back in the day. 00;37;00;25 – 00;37;02;19 Chris How I felt, how we started working together. 00;37;02;24 – 00;37;03;26 Dave Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00;37;03;26 – 00;37;22;05 Chris So I actually, you know, I listen to the podcast for a little over a year. I actually found the podcast because I was going up to Montana for my buddy’s bachelor party and was looking for stuff on the Madison. And, you know, I forget which guests you had on, but you heard about it. And then I just kind of kept listening. 00;37;22;05 – 00;37;34;01 Chris And then I think I heard an ad, you know, you at the end of an episode like, Hey, if you want to, you know, work or work with me or, you know, one of those type of things that. All right. But it was from an episode like two years earlier. 00;37;34;07 – 00;37;35;10 Dave Oh, right. And I was. 00;37;35;10 – 00;37;56;00 Chris Like, Man, I wonder if you still looking for somebody. And I got on the website and, you know, I think I found a little section on the website and I had your contact is like, you know, if you want to work, you know, drop a line and I searched my resume and, you know, told you I’d be, you know, I’m a fan and I like podcasts and I think I can maybe help you out with, you know, some odds and ends type of thing and oh, yeah, just try my shot. 00;37;56;00 – 00;38;17;10 Dave Essentially That’s it. And it was so cool because it was just like the perfect it all came together. And we for those who don’t know, I mean, a lot of the basically the stuff we do, I mean, we a number of different things, but the editing is done by virtual assistants in the Philippines. I’ve a long time learning how to work with Filipino Vas from other stuff that I’ve done, and it’s great. 00;38;17;10 – 00;38;33;17 Dave We got a whole team of great editors that do an amazing job and do a lot of other stuff too. Yeah, but you are the first person really the kind of in the team, you know, that was from, you know, us. Yeah, Colorado and all that stuff. So it was kind of cool. And, you know, just like the stuff you’re doing has been super helpful. 00;38;33;17 – 00;38;36;28 Dave I mean, we couldn’t have done a lot of the stuff you know, that we’re doing now without it, right? 00;38;37;03 – 00;38;55;04 Chris Yeah, It’s been fun, man. You know, I get to talk to a lot of cool people. I never Yeah, it’s really cool to hear people’s stories, you know? Yeah, we have a lot. We work at a lot of lodges and stuff, and even Chris and Mary have an awesome story of how they kind of got started. But I really like hearing how people kind of, like, reinvent themselves. 00;38;56;07 – 00;39;12;10 Chris You know, my dad, as you know, worked at the same company for 40 years. So, you know, I never even really thought you know, I thought you just, you know, got a career and you try to stick it out, you know, and try to find the same place it on the end, you know, And these people are reinventing themselves at like 45. 00;39;12;10 – 00;39;21;21 Chris And, you know, so it’s a really cool perspective on, you know, their, you know, how they were working in corporate America and doing whatever. And then, you know, now they own a lodge in Montana type of thing. 00;39;21;29 – 00;39;42;25 Dave Yeah, that’s so cool. Yeah, I was just listen to Pablo Signori. He has the he’s the host of the New Beano, our podcast with Lance Egan. And and he reached out to me to a while back and was like, hey, you know, we kind of connected and, and I just I can’t remember how it went down, but basically we connected and we did a podcast and I just and he was telling us his story is amazing. 00;39;42;25 – 00;40;00;05 Dave He’s got this, you know, got this crazy story. But he was saying he I think he was reading the book that was talking about exactly that. They’re saying, like reinventing yourself. You don’t have to, you know, do the same if you’re a musician. Right. Or whatever it is. You don’t have to be a musician your whole life. You can actually go and you’re free to go do other stuff. 00;40;00;14 – 00;40;17;14 Chris Yeah. And, you know, I kind of thought, you know, 45 and out a little bit older, you know, I don’t think 45 is as old as I used to be. But yeah, and, you know, it doesn’t mean, you know, just because you’ve been doing something for ten years or 20, you know, you can still, you know, find a new passion and, you know, go a different direction. 00;40;17;21 – 00;40;43;02 Dave That’s it. And that’s what’s been cool about this because, yeah, I mean, having you on here and we’ve got all sorts of cool stuff coming like we said, think pro as we continue to grow that and have more members join that I think it’s going to be awesome to have you in there to help with all the events and stuff we do there and and trips you know, we’re going to be doing more trips and, you know, I think so I really wanted to do this too, for you to talk about everything, but just introduce you to everybody, because I think they’re going to be hearing more from you out there as we go. 00;40;43;02 – 00;40;57;10 Chris So, yeah, for sure. No, I’m for sure looking forward to the what voice the pro stuff in the shop and you know, kind of connecting with anybody. And so, you know, if anybody’s in the shop right now, that’s an you know Colorado feel free to hit me up and you know, connect. 00;40;57;22 – 00;41;10;14 Dave Definitely I will do that. So that’s a good good shout out to what five swing pro like we said, we’ve been talking a little bit about but we are going to do another boot camp. I’ve decided I had a lot of feedback from people that that were in the last one, the first one we did and that just a lot of good feedback. 00;41;10;14 – 00;41;18;06 Dave I feel like it’s a real nice way to to do something different that provides value and gets people, you know, get some better ready for these trips we’re talking about, right? 00;41;18;06 – 00;41;23;24 Chris Oh yeah. I the there’s some really good stuff in that boot camp stuff. So if you guys get a chance, you should definitely check it out. 00;41;24;07 – 00;41;42;15 Dave Cool. Before we get out of here, I want to hear we talked about a little bit of advice, but as far as, you know, casting is one thing. I think we always hear the challenge, right? It sounds like that was a little bit of a challenge for you. What is your take away now that you’ve done it? You’ve battled some weather and stuff when you come back, when you’re getting ready for that next trip, what you going to do to get ready for it again? 00;41;42;23 – 00;42;03;29 Chris Oh, man, I definitely think, you know, just as much time as I can get practice casting with that, you know, bigger rod, you know, And, you know, I definitely it’s not like I don’t cast in Colorado, but, you know, it’s a lot of role casts, you know, You know, you’re not you’re definitely not casting, you know, 90 feet to a fish that’s moving like left or right and you got to lead the fish. 00;42;04;24 – 00;42;12;01 Chris So, yeah, I would just get as much as as comfortable as you can get with your rod in your hand. You know, nothing to replace the seat time with that kind of stuff. 00;42;12;11 – 00;42;22;13 Dave Just practice practice and the and the tips on I’ve heard, you know, just spotting fish and seeing fish. I mean obviously if you’ve got your you just got that time on the water. Right. To get better at that. 00;42;22;17 – 00;42;43;10 Chris Yeah. And you don’t even really know what you’re looking for until you see it. And then you know, and you know, luckily I was lucky enough to go with the guide. So, you know, they were, you know, kind of coaching me up on all of that and what to look for and stuff. But yeah, just, you know, just getting out there and I am sure people are maybe hesitant if you’ve ever done the salt stuff for before, but it’s so it’s all worth it. 00;42;43;10 – 00;42;47;10 Chris It’s, it’s really, really cool from a guy from a landmark state in Colorado. 00;42;47;10 – 00;42;52;21 Dave It’s right and it’s not too hard to travel like Or do you love to travel? That’s always a good question. I like to think. 00;42;52;21 – 00;43;15;23 Chris Yeah, I like getting around. You know, I definitely have my spots that, you know, I go to frequently, but I’m always trying to convince my buddies to, you know, go try a new piece of water. Sometimes it doesn’t work out so well for us. And, you know, the fishing, you know, it’s a it’s a learning curve. But yeah, I just getting out and trying new stuff and going new places, especially with fishing, you know, you get to see such awesome landscape. 00;43;16;04 – 00;43;21;24 Dave What do you think is your your bucket list or do you have another saltwater species or just bigger trip you’re thinking about? 00;43;21;28 – 00;43;53;03 Chris Oh man, I would love to go. I want to go run that back again down in Belize. And now that I kind of and, you know, try and get on some permit because I was seeing some huge pyramid down there. But, you know, I would even out the freshwater stuff, too. There’s so much out there that you know musky and yeah you know the red I think the next natural like salt one I’d want to do is like maybe that wasn’t Belize is like redfish maybe down in Louisiana I think that would be super cool but yeah yeah just anything with a bigger rod, I guess. 00;43;53;03 – 00;43;54;07 Chris Trying to get after some bigger. 00;43;54;07 – 00;43;58;16 Dave Fish, right? Yeah, exactly. What what’s your typical Colorado rod? Years. 00;43;58;16 – 00;44;12;07 Chris And last summer I was fishing a lot of small creeks for cutthroat. I actually double the pond, this creek at a ski resort I like to go to. And I got a three way for this little creek you can. I just hammered this creek all summer. 00;44;12;18 – 00;44;14;08 Dave And one of the cutthroat. What are these? Cutthroat? 00;44;14;12 – 00;44;15;21 Chris They were Colorado. Cutthroat. 00;44;15;22 – 00;44;16;12 Dave Oh, Colorado. 00;44;16;17 – 00;44;19;20 Chris None of the greenbacks stuff. I had all you could probably get it all. 00;44;19;20 – 00;44;25;25 Dave But of Colorado is amazing, too. I mean, that’s a cool thing about the curries, because, I mean, I there’s no Colorado cutthroat where I’m at, you know? I mean, so. 00;44;25;25 – 00;44;36;20 Chris Yeah, I know. And they’re so cool and I’m a I love the dry fire stuff that’s probably my favorite. So just see in a meet the dry fly, you know, the you know, the either smoke it or they’ll sip it, you know, and just trying to is. 00;44;36;20 – 00;44;44;17 Dave That dry fly stuff? Is that really where you’re, you know, the entomology stuff I think is really interesting. But is that something where you really get down or is it more like you’re getting a tractor and sort. 00;44;44;17 – 00;44;59;00 Chris Of, Oh, man, Dave, I, I tried it in super tacky with it. And, you know, you know, I’m like, how is this a you know, what kind of bug is this? I’m trying to see if it’s a, you know, blue winged or you know what it is, right? I’m trying to match it up and, you know, get nothing. 00;44;59;04 – 00;45;14;00 Chris And then so then I just, you know, go to the Old faithful, the Adams, they advertise the Adams and and that I couldn’t keep them off so that I tried to get into the entomology stuff, but I feel like you get it Sometimes it gets complicated a little too much in your head. I know. 00;45;14;04 – 00;45;24;20 Dave That’s so again. Yeah, I feel like it’s kind of I mean, it’s all good, you know? That’s the cool thing about it. It’s all right. I think that’s what we love. And it’s you can go down that rabbit hole or you can just throw on a parachute. 00;45;24;20 – 00;45;40;10 Chris ADAMS And yeah, and I’m definitely not a purist by any means. So, you know, by the, you know, first hour and I was, you know, in your see and refuse it too. So, you know, I tried to cycle through a couple of different specific bugs and then I was like, let’s just try this. ADAMS And of course, you know, that works like magic works. 00;45;40;17 – 00;45;44;00 Dave Are these little Colorado, like, what, six Inchers. 00;45;44;00 – 00;45;51;19 Chris I got I got one that was like 14 inches. But yeah, this little creek course at the lower section has brook trout. So you can catch. 00;45;51;26 – 00;45;52;08 Dave All right. 00;45;52;13 – 00;46;11;00 Chris You can keep the brook trout off, you’re off your fly, you can use whatever. But the farther you hike up, that’s where the cutthroat are. So I was told how long. Yeah. So, you know, I just trying to keep pushing up towards the, the source up river, up creek and try to get into those cutthroat. That’s, that’s what I was doing a lot of. 00;46;11;04 – 00;46;16;27 Chris I also fished the Arkansas quite a bit. Oh yeah. That’s probably the second spot I fish the most is. 00;46;17;07 – 00;46;17;10 Dave The. 00;46;17;10 – 00;46;17;29 Chris Arkansas. 00;46;18;15 – 00;46;37;24 Dave Gotcha. Cool. Yeah. We’re going to be doing the land in mayor school this year, which is going to be awesome. The South Platte, right? Oh, yes. A kind of pretty famous river out there. You hear about the South Platte quite a bit. It’s definitely lots of people know about it, right? It’s not a it’s a technical, would you say have you fished that at all or do you know? 00;46;37;24 – 00;47;04;23 Chris I actually have I’ve done the deckers shoulder to shoulder, you know, Cheesman, same thing. It’s all good water and there’s huge fish in there. It’s just so packed sometimes. And unfortunately, I’m a, I’m a weekend warrior, so, you know, a Saturday. Deckers is pretty packed even anymore during the week I’ve taken Wednesdays off or Tuesdays off. And it’s there’s still people that, you know, you’re not going to get totally away from it but you can kind of find a little bit more space on the Arkansas for. 00;47;04;23 – 00;47;07;20 Chris So that’s kind of why I only know a little bit for to of a drive. 00;47;07;20 – 00;47;20;06 Dave But yeah I yeah it’s interesting with the crowd stuff I think that you know it’s one of those things that’s just there’s more people out there right It’s just something you got to, you know and I don’t know what the the you know, again it’s just part of the part of what you deal with. 00;47;20;09 – 00;47;28;10 Chris Oh, yeah. No. And it’s yeah. And you can’t hate anybody. They’re all just trying to do the same thing I’m trying to do is get out, you know, just get out and touch some grass. So. 00;47;28;11 – 00;47;43;24 Dave Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the biggest thing. I think that it’s, you know, I’m going to do more of this year when out there and really just connect with people on the water. I think I’ve been really in my own zone and being like, you know, But I feel like, you know, you’re out there, somebody out there is busy, Hey, take this whole. 00;47;44;02 – 00;48;02;01 Dave Yeah, I mean, like just, you know, it seems like that’s the better way to do it. Then I feel like, you know, I think steelhead fishing especially, I’ve been in situations where, man, it’s hard core, man. You got that really sweet run. Yeah. And, you know, you want to get it and it’s I’m, I’m guessing the deckers and that’s is probably similar so yeah. 00;48;02;01 – 00;48;17;05 Chris And and I feel like it’s just so you know I think I mean there’s not a spot that’s not popular in Colorado you know it’s not like I’m going to some secret spot nobody’s ever heard of, but I feel like that’s one of the main ones. Kind of if you Google fly fishing, it’s the South Platte and Deckers and Cheesman. 00;48;17;12 – 00;48;33;12 Chris So that’s where I feel like a lot of people go just because it’s so pop, you know, so Yeah, it’s a household name. But no, I think, yeah, seeing people out there and it’s, it’s honestly nice way it makes it that much better when you run into someone cool out there, you know who you know. It’s like, Hey, I’m fishing this way. 00;48;33;12 – 00;48;46;13 Chris Are you fishing this way? You care if I go this way? And then it’s like, Oh, yeah. So I did fish right next to me that, you know, if you’re going to ask, you know. So I think makes those interactions a little cooler. Yeah. Just because, you know, there’s a little bit more rare. 00;48;46;27 – 00;49;04;05 Dave Yeah, that’s a nice well, I mean, as we take it out here, let’s hear back to, you know, just Belize, the takeaway on Belize. So I think we’ve covered pretty well. It feels like I’m getting fired up for it. I want to get out there and see if I can track down a permit or something. Yeah, but what do you you know, somebody again, they’re thinking about this trip. 00;49;04;05 – 00;49;10;10 Dave What sort of advice or what are you telling them to maybe prepare for that first, you know, or maybe that next trip? 00;49;10;12 – 00;49;27;15 Chris Yeah, I you know, if you don’t have a rod or any of the gear, Chris will at the blue Bonefish will take care of you, man. Like I said, I had a date, Wade. But, you know, I had a nine and a ten for a permit and a typing rod, so I was using their stuff. You don’t need to bring, you know, I think they like it when you bring some flies down. 00;49;27;28 – 00;49;49;14 Chris But, you know, if you don’t have any of the stuff, you know, let you use it. But yeah, I just try and get down there and it’s they’re really accommodating. And, you know, like I said, it’s super family oriented as far as like the vibe and everybody’s kind of together, you know? And they I think one of the big things is they’re they’re one of the only lodges that cater to like, you bring in like somebody who’s not fishing, right? 00;49;49;14 – 00;49;53;28 Dave So, yeah, that’s right. Yeah. You bring your family, you go down there as a Yeah. A couples or whatever and. 00;49;53;28 – 00;50;08;28 Chris Doing a little bit of research, you kind of look at these lodges and it’s like the schedules of your fishing for six days and then you’re out of that, you know, every day. But you know, they really accommodated my wife and, you know, she loved her time down there, which is always a plus. And for her to work with. 00;50;08;28 – 00;50;25;02 Chris Yeah. You know, it’s you know, if you want to go snorkeling, will take out snorkel if you want to try spearfishing or go deep sea fishing a day, they’ll take you out and kind of let you do whatever program you want. But yeah, I’ll get down there and check it out because yeah, it’s a really, really cool way to experience Belize, that’s for sure. 00;50;25;15 – 00;50;29;14 Dave Did you see any other when you’re there? Were you the only couple couple. 00;50;29;14 – 00;50;45;07 Chris No, there was, there was a couple other couples there. I think they their wives like the fish. They you know, they took off days too, but they went fishing one day. My wife didn’t really I had no interest in it. But there were two other couples there. There were two guys who were solo, so they were just down there by themselves. 00;50;45;19 – 00;50;49;25 Chris And then they had one. There was one pair who were like buddies. 00;50;50;02 – 00;51;07;22 Dave So yeah, there you go. Cool. I think we’re going to be talking more about this as we go. I know we’re going to be talking more because hopefully I’m going to be getting down there and we’re going to be digging more into this because I feel like, again, these, you know, Belize, these species is something that I think is on most people’s bucket list, you know. 00;51;07;22 – 00;51;17;29 Chris Yeah. And it’s it’s pretty easy to get to, too. It’s not like a whole ordeal. And Chris and Mary give you an itinerary and line everything up and, you know, they pick you up, they drop you off. It’s yeah. 00;51;18;02 – 00;51;20;27 Dave Four and a half hours. I mean, that’s like, that’s easy. 00;51;21;00 – 00;51;23;18 Chris No, pretty seamless as far as international travel goes. 00;51;23;22 – 00;51;41;26 Dave Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Cool. Well, like we said, Chris, this has been awesome to chat with you find here. We’re going to be doing a lot more. And fly swing of course Fly Swing Pro people can check that out and we talked about blue boat and fish bellies as well and and pedicure on the fly, which I’ve been doing some more cool stuff. 00;51;41;27 – 00;51;49;16 Chris Yeah they help me out with a rod and you know it was it was awesome to get to use that and you know, give me the opportunity to do some DIY stuff. I was down there. 00;51;49;25 – 00;52;03;17 Dave So yeah, we’re going to be I’m going to be when I make the trip, I’ll be for sure having to travel the six piece. Yeah, I know. When we did our trip up to what was the last one, I think the Alaska thing, it was the same thing. It was like, man, you know, I put it inside my pack completely. 00;52;03;24 – 00;52;06;11 Dave You know the rod, right? It so it was like it was just gone. 00;52;06;11 – 00;52;22;23 Chris You could, you could. Yeah, it definitely kind of opened my eyes to how you could possibly travel. You know, I got to Utah for work every once in a while, so, you know, I was like, maybe I can, you know, maybe I need to add a four weight or something to my my quiver here. And so I haven’t really. 00;52;22;25 – 00;52;23;00 Dave Yeah. 00;52;23;16 – 00;52;25;27 Chris Yeah, exactly. Be ready to go out there. 00;52;25;27 – 00;52;41;29 Dave That’s awesome. All right, Chris. Well, we’ll leave it there for now. Again, thanks for everything you’re doing out there and for, you know, working with the community and everything we have, going with all of the sponsors and everything. So I’m excited to keep this going this year and beyond. And yeah, yeah, until we, till we talk. We’ll see on the next one. 00;52;42;05 – 00;52;45;12 Chris Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having me on. 00;52;45;12 – 00;53;01;11 Dave The good chance you wanna check in with Chris, you can find him. Obviously. Fly swing pro in our community if you go to fly swing dot com slash pro you can sign up there add your name to the waiting list and we’ll let you know when we are next cohort opens up. And that’s going to be coming up soon. 00;53;01;11 – 00;53;18;09 Dave Very soon. So stay tuned for swing dot com slash pro want to let you know we have a big week next week we’re kicking off the fish out expeditions giveaway event. This is the big Alaska trip. If you want to get a chance of this you can check in next week, get your name entered there and you follow up with us on details on that as well. 00;53;18;14 – 00;53;36;05 Dave We’ve got a great couple of episodes we’re leading off with. Next week we’re going to be talking about conservation, some of the big issues in Alaska right now, things that we all need to be aware of. So I’m excited to share those episodes next week and I think we’re finishing up the week with Kristian Pretorius, another international angler, a really fun one next week. 00;53;36;05 – 00;53;53;26 Dave So stay tuned there. That’s all I have for you. I hope you enjoyed this one and we will look forward to catch in you on the next episode. Hope you’re having a great afternoon. A great evening. Or if it’s morning, if you’re just getting going this morning, getting that cup of cup of coffee going, I hope you enjoy it and we’ll see you hopefully on that next podcast up. 00;53;53;26 – 00;53;55;19 Dave So talk to you then. Thanks for. 00;53;55;19 – 00;53;56;04 Chris Listening. 00;53;56;04 – 00;53;57;11 Dave To the wet fly swing. 00;53;57;11 – 00;53;59;29 Chris Fly fishing show for notes and links from this. 00;53;59;29 – 00;54;08;17 Dave Episode. Visit Wet Fly, swing, Dotcom. I’m.

 

Conclusion with Chris on Bonefish

Chris’s first trip to Belize showed that Bonefish is about much more than landing fish. It’s learning to read the flats and trusting his guide to experience the hospitality of Blue Bonefish Lodge and explore the beauty of Belize. The trip was filled with valuable lessons both on and off the water. Whether you’re planning your first saltwater fly fishing adventure or looking for your next destination, this episode offers practical tips and inspiration to help you prepare.

Have you ever caught your first Bonefish, or is Belize on your fly-fishing bucket list?

     
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