00;00;01;29 – 00;00;29;19 Dave From the frog water seems of the San Juan to the deep seven foot buckets were brown trout turned crazy. Today’s guest has built his entire life around understanding tale waters that most anglers might think they know but might not know well enough. If you’ve ever wondered whether trout in a high traffic river will eat 11 inch flies or how it’ll water, famous for 24 inch images can produce 30 inch plus trout on articulated meat. 00;00;30;04 – 00;00;46;11 Dave This episode is your window to that world. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing. How to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. James Garrison from About Trout is here to break down. 00;00;46;11 – 00;01;05;20 Dave Why the San Juan is nothing like the Instagram version and why most of the myths are dead wrong. We’re going to find out how to fish streamers in frog water, deep ledges and hidden transition zones. Most anglers will pass. We’re also going to get into the truth about giant browns on the San Juan, including the one they tape 33 inches. 00;01;05;20 – 00;01;30;15 Dave And we get the story behind that fish and and how they put that together. And we’re going to find out why his crew loves seven weights, heavy coral and tips, huge flies and long stalls. Plus, James shares why despite traveling and fishing all around the West, he spends every Friday back on the San Juan exploring micro buckets, dissecting frog water, and proving that creativity not convention, is what catches the biggest fish on the river. 00;01;30;24 – 00;01;38;18 Dave All right. Here he is, James Garrison. You can find him at about Trout Dotcom. How’s it going, James? Hey. 00;01;38;18 – 00;01;42;07 James Doing great, Dave. Happy to be here. Thank you for having me on the West week. 00;01;42;15 – 00;01;57;16 Dave Yeah, I mean, this is. This is going to be fun. I know. We were talking just a second off here that you’ve been swinging supplies recently for steelhead, so we might catch up with you on that. You’re also an expert out in the kind of New Mexico area, the San Juan, a famous river we’ve heard a lot about. 00;01;57;28 – 00;02;20;01 Dave And I think streamers I also you were talking off air that you guys had recently connected to a monster fish. I, I think the 30 inch fish is that number that you hear people always try maybe trying to attain in these these amazing fisheries. About 30 seems to be that place where most people don’t get to or maybe it’s a 28 and they maybe called a 30, but you guys got one recently. 00;02;20;01 – 00;02;34;18 Dave I think that’s over 30. So we’ll talk about that. And just streamers today, I think streamers a little bit on your background on that, what you guys are doing on the San Juan. But let’s take it back real quick on your fly fishing. When did you make your way out to New Mexico? Have you been out there a while? 00;02;35;04 – 00;02;56;19 James Been out here for just over ten years. Just over ten years before that, I was in Seattle. And Makoto, I work for Ryan Smith that avid anglers shout out Ryan and then, you know, I’ve been in fly fishing since I was 14 and my mom used to drive me to Orvis. I had a Workers department, so Tysons Corner store number 55 and Northern Virginia. 00;02;57;05 – 00;03;02;12 James So I’ve been around for a little bit and that’s just it’s what I’ve always wanted to do and I always want to be a part of it. 00;03;02;21 – 00;03;12;15 Dave Nice When did the the about trout? That name is great, but when did that idea come to be and did you So ten years and what got you out to New Mexico. 00;03;12;26 – 00;03;28;22 James It’s just a change of pace. You know I was living in the northwest, freshly married. My wife didn’t like the rain as much as I did, so we kind of did a 180 on the weather there. New Mexico, great for a lot of reasons, a lot of different a lot of diversity in terms of, you know, the environments. 00;03;28;22 – 00;03;33;09 James There’s trout here. So it’s a it’s a great place to be. Is a good place to his family. 00;03;33;17 – 00;03;51;22 Dave Perfect. Yeah. I’m on the same lines with the family. I think that I don’t mind the rain as much, but the the family, it’s it’s a little bit rough, especially this time of year. You’re in November and it’s starting to rain more and more. What’s it like out there this time of year? You guys are it’s kind of mid-November going in December. 00;03;51;23 – 00;03;54;05 Dave How’s the weather out there now and what’s the fishing look like? 00;03;54;05 – 00;04;09;03 James Yeah, not too, I would say, You know, November certainly my favorite month to guide on the San Juan. It’s not as busy. You know, in the mornings it’s like, you know, high, high twenties lows. There is a can get up in the fifties and sixties and that’s a, you know, rocky about 30 degrees, you know, growing up out east. 00;04;09;03 – 00;04;27;08 James And as our client book develops so we’re Big East coasters and you know you hear 20 degrees, 30 degrees and that’s insane. But we don’t have the humidity. I mean, we were just at the trade show in Jersey. I hadn’t been on the East Coast in ten years. And it’s not bad. You know, I kind of dressed I would dress out here for 20, 30 degrees. 00;04;27;08 – 00;04;43;28 James And let me tell you, it’s like a punch in the chest when I went outside. So you have a little bit different up in the in the southern Rockies. But what is great, you know, you can still snow it’s can still be unpredictable. It’s kind of like the classic joke everywhere. Just wait one minute. So, look, we’ve all heard that one. 00;04;43;28 – 00;04;55;06 James But I would say the weather doesn’t start to get kind of harsh here until the middle of December. And then January is when it gets really cold and it’s short. And then but February, you know, it comes right back up. 00;04;55;11 – 00;05;13;06 Dave Yep, definitely. And let’s hear about kind of your home waters where you’re guiding and definitely, you know, I’ve heard probably about you as much as anybody out in that neck of the woods. So I’m interested to hear in your, you know, how you do it there on the river. So what’s describe the river a little bit and talk about are you fishing year round out there? 00;05;13;16 – 00;05;36;06 James We do. We go to 12 month season on the San Juan. It’s a tail water fishery. The dam was built in 1958 and then, you know, I love kind of the culture and the history of that place. You know, the guy had seen really got going in the 1980s. The quality water is the most famous part, you know, and that is from the dam to what they call Crusher Hill after 911. 00;05;36;06 – 00;05;54;02 James You know, you can’t fish below the dam anymore. But, you know, we’re floating about three and a quarter miles of the quality water. So we do a lot of laps, slower moving water, but we have a lot of water to fish. There’s outside of the quality water, there’s the bay water that kind of doubles the length of the flow. 00;05;54;02 – 00;06;19;06 James And then there’s a nine mile float that you can only float through during certain flow ranges. And that’s a whole different, you know, experience down there, but kind of the day in, day out guiding that goes on on that river happens, you know, within Navajo Lake State Park. So it’s pretty diverse in terms of just water types from ripples to, you know, long runs to, you know, buckets. 00;06;19;21 – 00;06;46;03 James And then it’s just a very dynamic fishery. It’s a bug factory, of course. And, you know, the river changes its personality like all rivers throughout those 12 months. And then they jack flow based on irrigation requirements. So a lot of times you only get like a 24 hour heads up. Sometimes they will release like a prolonged schedule. So, you know, again, with that varying varying flow, it keeps things fresh, keeps things interesting. 00;06;46;13 – 00;06;55;22 Dave So you’re on the San Juan. I think there’s been maybe you know, a few misnomers out there. Maybe. Describe what do you think are some of the things people think about the San Juan that maybe isn’t true out there? 00;06;56;03 – 00;07;16;06 James Yeah, I think, you know, you have to fish small flies. You’re never going to find any solitude. The fish won’t eat big streamers. You can’t grow them fed. You have to. They’re really small dry flies. You know, our fish don’t fight. I mean, you know, and listening to other podcasts and, you know, hearing the one get brought up, sometimes it makes my blood boil. 00;07;16;08 – 00;07;44;02 James Like you go on Instagram, you know, and you see. Yes. Is the salmon a popular tail or. Absolutely. You know, there’s a lot of popular rivers. The Madison, the Delaware, the west branch of the Delaware, the South Holston, you know, at the Sacramento, I mean, there’s there’s a bunch of them. And so like sometimes what people’s first point of contact with that river is they hop on Instagram and there’s a boat on two anchors and there’s six guys around him at the top of Texas Hill And then across the river, there’s another boat on anchor and the Texas coast. 00;07;44;03 – 00;08;09;09 James You could walk into it from the parking lot. You know, it’s it’s it’s literally in the parking lot. And so that’s a lot of people’s first point of contact with that river. And, you know, if that’s the reality that you want to live in, you know, hey, man, it’s 20, 25 living your truth. But if you’re willing to wake up early or fish later or try different techniques and tactics, like it’s a pretty you know, it’s like a dojo where you’re only limited by your creativity. 00;08;09;20 – 00;08;18;09 James And so whether that’s ten car, you’re out everything, you know, ribbon dancing on the side of the bank, whatever you want to do, you can accomplish that on the satellite. 00;08;18;09 – 00;08;30;13 Dave That’s. So what does it look like for you guys? If somebody was setting up a trip, you know, now or, you know, next month, December, what does the day look like? Are you what would you be taking them? Describe element? 00;08;30;21 – 00;08;48;24 James Absolutely. So, you know, right now I would say this three my fishing is is kind of spotty. We’re still I mean shoot two weeks ago you know Kyle the biggest fish any of us landed this season with the about trout crew happened ten days ago. But for us you know our big philosophy here at about trout is it’s your day. 00;08;48;25 – 00;09;05;09 James You know, I’m not none of us, you know, want to kind of tell you what to do if you have an interest, if you’re trying to learn, you know, we always say that we’re teachers first, but we try to start early, you know, right now in November with Daylight Savings time, you know, we have a ton of light. 00;09;05;24 – 00;09;30;00 James We’ll try to meet as early as possible. If we get somebody that doesn’t want to touch a barber rig, you know, we’ll start with streamers and wait for that that ambient air temperature to kind of bump the water temps, go look for heads or even start a little bit later. There’s ways to mix it up. But, you know, right now, November, there’s fish early in the morning or, you know, lower third of the water column, you know, mid-July, River and Lids. 00;09;30;14 – 00;09;49;17 James We like to throw some big bold attractor patterns. That’s that’s one thing on the San Juan where, you know things like a mop fly, you know, a big egg. You know, these these fish don’t have PhDs. They have pea size brands and they’re absolutely chain of their biology. And so, you know, understanding that and gaming it back against the trout helps. 00;09;49;17 – 00;10;05;11 James But, you know, for November, that’s that’s what we’re looking for it you know if you’re more of a nymph person deep and heavy in the morning, we’re going to look for heads, maybe try some streamers in the morning. We do get some good bait as hashes this time of year, and that’ll go till about the second week of December. 00;10;05;11 – 00;10;27;13 James So it really is a it’s a mixed bag. So our communication with our clients is, is huge pre-trip and you know, and making sure we put out a day that that they want to experience. Norm was out yesterday, did a year and everything showed up in the braids. Kyle was out yesterday and they mixed it up. You know they were throwing a kind of heavier indicator eggs and the day before that they were throwing streamers and dry. 00;10;27;15 – 00;10;31;15 James So it’s it’s really kind of a choose your own adventure, if you will. 00;10;31;23 – 00;10;51;29 Dave That’s sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Norm Open link in the show notes. Norm My time is definitely it was one of the biggest I think it’s one of our biggest episodes ever. And I think and we were talking about that a little bit about it. I think part of it here on the thing that he’s just such a, you know, such a stud out there doing his stuff and like with the Team USA and he’s just kind of a super trout bum. 00;10;52;10 – 00;11;08;07 Dave Well, I think we’ll talk a little more about Norm as we go, because I’m sure he’s a big part of your your game plan there. But but talk about streamers like of let’s say that was the plan. You know, we wanted to come there, say, in December and I wanted to try to get one on a streamer, You know, what would that look like? 00;11;08;07 – 00;11;09;29 Dave What would we be doing that day? 00;11;10;09 – 00;11;26;02 James Yeah, in December. And I would say for anyone listening that, you know, you do not have to twist our arms to get us to want to throw streamers. I would say the peak of the streamer season for the sound line, you would think it would be when those fish are produced. Bond But that’s just not what we have observed over the years doing it. 00;11;26;02 – 00;11;50;05 James I would say the streamer fishing gets really good in March when those fish are postponed and they’re putting weight back on as specifically the brown trout and pretty much, you know, through September. And then it starts to taper down around October. You can catch them every month of the year on a streamer. But we’ve noticed that, you know, once they start to move around, there’s not that much quality spawning gravel on the San Juan and our branch. 00;11;50;05 – 00;12;09;09 James Our population is 100% self-sustaining. So not that we’re fishing to fish on reds or anything like that, but those branch or they’re moving around. So the fish that were there in September, you know, they’ve moved out because they’re, you know, they’re thinking about reproducing. But for December, you know, we fish seven weights. I’m a big fan of that. 00;12;09;09 – 00;12;38;17 James Courtland Right now, even a swing of a couple degrees can really get those trout go in or slow them down. And that’s what we’re seeing. You know, if you were coming out to see your fish in December, we would be fishing. But we have like a 30 foot head and I like that. Cortland Rock. Bottom line, Kelly Gallop just hopped over to Cortland, so it’s very similar to like a stream where Max Long, you know, and making sure that streamers fishing down in that middle and lower third of the water column is what we would do. 00;12;38;17 – 00;12;55;20 James You know that streamer by once the once that hard sun hits the water can kind of shut him down but you know throw on bigger flies articulated stuff. I’m trying to get that reactionary bite out of these fish. And if that doesn’t work, you know, you can drop sized and size it down through like a small tandem rig. 00;12;55;20 – 00;13;16;14 James So like the old classic you could throw like a salt and pepper, black and white little Willie bugger rig, double scope zilla, but, you know, fishing seven way. It’s like the Douglas gauge or the echo streamer X and then dropping you know, matching that with those Cortland lines. We really like anything from a three IPS, the Cortland Sink ten to that rock bottom. 00;13;17;03 – 00;13;37;08 James It’s you do want to change your lines based on where you are in the river to get the optimum presentation. I personally, I like fish and the heavy tips with unweighted flies and really stalling that fly out, getting it to turn broadside, burning it against the current. And then there’s times to kind of back off and just shake it as well. 00;13;37;09 – 00;13;39;19 James On the vertical rise through the column. 00;13;39;19 – 00;14;03;25 Dave Yeah, amazing. Kelly was on a recent podcast of our is Real Southern podcast and have a chat We’re talking for an epic episode just on length, but he was talking a lot about that, how it’s so key to stall. You know, the burning is like anybody can burn, you know, burn the fly across. But he really says, you got to figure out that slow game and get that down. 00;14;03;25 – 00;14;13;23 Dave And it sounds like that’s something really key to you guys. What does that look like? Talk about kind of the water you’re looking for. What what’s the prime is? Are they found in different areas? Pools, riffles, everything? 00;14;14;02 – 00;14;38;00 James Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s like the kind of like the, you know, the crazy thing with the sand on it. We have so many trout. So, like, without, you know, they’re everywhere in that river. And, you know, Kyle and I, Kyle is our head guide. You know, we fish on our days off. We’re passionate anglers. And, I mean, it took us a few years to really love fishing on our days off before we felt comfortable sharing it with our clients. 00;14;38;00 – 00;14;55;01 James You know, we might do it here, but we never want to come off as disingenuous or, Hey, like I’d done this two times and now I know what I’m talking about. You know, we’re kind of the social media era that we live in. So we are finding those fish feet, ripple drops, you know, undercuts kind of your classic streamer spots. 00;14;55;01 – 00;15;14;00 James But on the San Juan, we have a lot of frog water. So sure. So for those that don’t know, just flow water, we have a lot of deep water and because our river’s so oxygenated, I mean, sometimes we’re picking these fish up seven feet down on a tip, sometimes, you know, we’re finding them in 3 to 4 foot pockets adjacent to a drop off. 00;15;14;12 – 00;15;20;09 James You know, Kyle, you know, send that photo. But they have like a 33 inch that’s taped to. I’ll show you a picture of it on the tray. 00;15;20;09 – 00;15;24;25 Dave But is. Oh, nice. So can we get a photo or throw in the show notes here so people can take a look at it right now? 00;15;24;29 – 00;15;25;26 James Oh, absolutely. 00;15;26;00 – 00;15;32;27 Dave Talk about that fish, because I think that’s one of the one of those, you know, bigger than 30. I mean, anything in that area is just crazy. It was this a brown trout? 00;15;33;04 – 00;16;05;03 James It was. And it was a streamer eater. And it like, you know, Kyle is an amazing guy and Superficie loves it, is passionate about it, you know, And it was just you know, I remember I got the call. I was actually on my way to go to Oregon to go steal heading and my phone went off and I saw that and I just, you know, to me, that’s and I think if you as you talk to more guides, you know, to really work on a technique and try to refine it and then share that with your clients, you know, like a coach and like a top level athlete or aide, and there’s no accident there. 00;16;05;11 – 00;16;13;15 James You know, they were looking for a big fish. They found a big fish. Kyle coached his guy through it. And to me, that’s I mean, that says poetry, right? Yes. You know, so. 00;16;13;22 – 00;16;15;07 Dave Right. So this was on a guided trip and. 00;16;15;07 – 00;16;20;08 James This was like, yeah. And that was I think that was the first time ever on the center line. It’s like, yeah. 00;16;20;16 – 00;16;28;12 Dave He’s room. That’s like one of those things like Catch and save the Steelhead gets into your first steelhead on a first cast or something like that. You’re kind of ruined after that. 00;16;28;14 – 00;16;34;21 James It’s over. Yeah. I mean, and it’s easy to throw these numbers around, but like, a giant trout is about. 00;16;34;24 – 00;16;38;02 Dave 20 is amazing. I would love to catch a 20 inch brown any day. 00;16;38;11 – 00;16;55;04 James Yeah, and we’re so spoiled on the salmon. But I, you know, I grew up out east. Like, I remember I used to get excited as a child, like nine inch brook trout was keeper sized, you know, And that was like, crazy to catch on that big. And not that I kept them, but, you know, it’s your perspective change. 00;16;55;04 – 00;16;59;02 James But that childlike choice still there. 00;16;59;02 – 00;17;21;01 Dave Trout Roots by Onyx is built for fly anglers who want better intel without spending hours digging for the information. You’ll get access to public land maps, stream access points, regulations and even road and trail maps all in one place. It’s become my go to app for scouting new trips. You can check them out right now. Go to west by swing dot com slash trout routes and download the app today. 00;17;21;25 – 00;17;41;01 Dave Would you like to level up your fly fishing game this year? Head over to Smitty’s fly boxcar your one stop shop for top quality flies, tying materials, gear and accessories online whether you’re hunting trout in riffles, stocking in steelhead in a slick or tie in in your garage late at night. Smitty’s has the hooks, beads, dubbing and everything you need to get the job done. 00;17;41;07 – 00;18;04;21 Dave Check out Smitty’s right now at wet flight swing slash Smitty’s. That’s awesome. I t t y s Smitty’s get what you need at Smitty’s fly boxcar. Take us to that moment. I mean, I know you’re you’re kind of hearing Kyle story, but what did they do? You know, the whole thing What were they use? And the lines you just mentioned and talk about was the water. 00;18;04;21 – 00;18;06;25 Dave Was it kind of the frog water? What would it look like? 00;18;07;02 – 00;18;30;19 James It was there was a slower water on a big depth change. You know, one of the cool things just through the guide world is just we have other peers and other guides on other rivers like Alex Laugh, Kiss on the White River, you know, comparing notes with guys like that. And it was exactly what a lot of those White River guides would describe, 3 to 6 feet of water kind of adjacent to like a drop off. 00;18;30;19 – 00;18;45;26 James And Kyle was saying he was coaching this guy through it. They were fishing a Cortland Sink 15, which is a six eyepiece. It’s got a 15 foot tip on it. And Kyle, the guy said he thought he was on the bottom and Kyle was like, No, no, no, no. That’s, that’s a fish. 00;18;45;26 – 00;18;49;28 Dave And wow. So it’s a six inches per second sinking line with a 15 foot head. 00;18;50;13 – 00;19;08;20 James Exactly. And so, you know, Kyle, Coach in that guy through it, you know, with different rod angles just like, you know steelhead swing in, right? You can manipulate the fly. You can you move that rod tip behind the fly to put it under tension so it doesn’t hang up as much and some little tricks to it. And they thought they were on the bottom. 00;19;08;20 – 00;19;14;13 James Kyle Coach’s guy threw it. I think we I was sitting down, too, which is funny. Oh, yeah, of course. Right. And then he. 00;19;14;13 – 00;19;15;10 Dave Got in a boat or. 00;19;15;10 – 00;19;30;21 James Yeah, and in the boat. Yeah. Oh wow. And yet they got the video. I mean the video of him netting it. It’s just amazing to, you know, watch that all go down and see the joy on all three of those guys and really this kind of Rudy type moment. 00;19;31;06 – 00;19;31;20 Dave Oh, yeah. 00;19;32;06 – 00;19;44;15 James So but yeah it it a white streamer and because we used seven way it’s you know they were able to really put the wood to that fish and it kicked off I got the release video kicked off super hard and you know everyone was happy. 00;19;44;22 – 00;19;49;13 Dave Yeah. Wow. And the seven way is so used pretty much the year round. You’re using seven weights. 00;19;49;20 – 00;20;15;04 James Seven or eight year round. Yes. You know, it helps to throw it, especially for throwing bigger flies. And then in different parts of the river, I’m a big fan of guiding with like tandem rigs, so like too little weighted scope zilla, too little weighted wooly bugger is kind of that family of patterns and you know that seven or eight you can kind of throw those tandem rigs without blowing up the grain window on your pod and that does a great job of handling that. 00;20;15;10 – 00;20;31;20 Dave Yeah, right. That’s always an interesting conversation. It’s not quite the eight way, which is that next up and maybe like steelhead, more steelhead focus single hand, right. But your deck, the seven is a good way. I always kind of like, you know, the way you know, what are the rods? So you guys use those out there in the lines. 00;20;31;20 – 00;20;40;11 Dave It sounds like pretty much year round. Are you guys sinking it down towards that lower third or later in the year or spring time? Are you guys changing where those those big fish are? 00;20;40;21 – 00;21;04;17 James No, that’s an excellent question. I mean, you know, I would say it depends kind of spot to spot. Dave. So, you know, depth is all relative. So there could be times where we’re in like a flat section, like I’ll just give it away a little bit. But there’s a section of the river called Lower Flats. I mean, the deepest spot in that section outside of the chute that’s in there is like waist deep during your average flow. 00;21;04;26 – 00;21;24;11 James And so that’s where I’ll get like that three inches per second sinker out, you know, have my guys quarter downstream dump it down river man you know and then I can you can tell them speed it up, you can throw an up river, mend it after stripping or strip it with the rod tip upriver that fly to put that thing under a little more attention to get it to lift so you don’t hang up on the rocks. 00;21;24;11 – 00;21;47;08 James But you know, you have a presentation called The Guides Approach to the Water. And I’m just a big believer in matching my rig to what’s in front of me and then just kind of stuffing a general rig throughout the river. So we have multiple spools in our boat. So sometimes efficient floating lines. Sometimes we’re fishing that, you know, 300 game thinking rock bottom. 00;21;47;08 – 00;22;07;09 James So we’re just going to try to meet the fish where they’re at. A lot of times we’re going to use those heavier tips to just kind of punch through like a heavy riffle drop. Not that it’s even got a present down there, but if I can just get that thing to bite six inches under the chop, you know, I can get that fly to stall out a little bit and kind of the pockets and and works of the shelves. 00;22;07;18 – 00;22;21;07 Dave Yeah. How do you know where those shelves are? Are you seeing these? Like locals say you have this spot, you want to stall it right as it’s near the shelf or wherever that is. Are you How are you finding those are how would somebody find where those shelves and those drops are? 00;22;21;20 – 00;22;42;11 James That’s excellent. I mean, I think, you know, we’re pretty blessed just because we have a year round fishery and I mean, you know, some see, you know, I’m guiding 150 to 200 days a year and I’m fishing on top of that. So just from seeing it at a low flow and standing up in the boat and then just fishing on our days off, like you see a cool new rock, you see a cool new ledge. 00;22;42;11 – 00;23;02;18 James I mean, you know, there’s been a lot of times just fun fishing where I notice something that when I have the guide blinders on, I’m not going to pay attention to. So just being familiar with that river and fishing it and guiding it so much, you just you can really, you know, in doing it in a boat where you’re high, right? 00;23;02;18 – 00;23;28;06 James And you can look down and you can see those topographic changes. I mean, to those anglers that are weighed fishing it and their minds going with the streamer thing, you know, I would say think about T for trout and then transitions or transitions in depth current structure. And that’s what’s going to hold those fish, whether they’re eating midges on the river or they’re going to eat a streamer, you’re looking for those, those transitions is where you’re going to find them transition. 00;23;28;06 – 00;23;45;16 Dave So it could be that that big, maybe slow frog water, but within that maybe there’s some microcurrent or an eddy break or there’s something going on that you notice that kind of maybe describe that. Well, are you seeing those microcurrent on the surface? Can you see some of those from just looking at if you can’t see the structure? 00;23;45;29 – 00;23;58;14 James Absolutely. And you know, we have a lot of hard saw it on that river as well. And that’s great that you mentioned. You know, I love the frog water because a lot of people hate it. And so, you know, I can find some solitude down there. 00;23;58;19 – 00;24;18;01 Dave I feel like the frog water is the place for the people, you know, like me and others that aren’t like super experts. I feel like a lot of us are like, Oh, man, the frog water around. It’s frog water. It sucks, you know, it’s for the warm water fish. But the more you I hear people talking here that are that know what they’re talking about, it seems like the frog water is where a lot of those big fish hang it. 00;24;18;01 – 00;24;22;25 Dave Maybe it changes throughout the year. Right, depending on temperature. But it sounds like that’s where you guys got that 33 incher. 00;24;23;08 – 00;24;37;13 James Yes, that one was Kyle got that one. And what I would describe as some frog your water for sure. You know, we have a section of the river and you hit the nail on the head. I mean, you know, you kind of see these big expanses of frog water and you’re like, Oh, this sucks, this is lame. There’s I like structure. 00;24;37;13 – 00;25;05;02 James I like I mean, it’s funny, you know, we have spots like guys will see like a reflection. I’m like, oh, this, this looks fishy. And it’s like, yeah, there are fish there. But I can promise you right around the corner where it looks like garbage is, there’s a lot more fish in there. And so we are looking for those microcurrent you can look at the bubble lines, you can start to see where it slicks out, especially, you know, if there is an obstruction, just subsurface and there’s a lot of topography down there. 00;25;05;02 – 00;25;25;26 James People forget that structure can also be on the lower third, the river. There could be a rock down there. You don’t see. There’s all these little top topographic pockets and dishes and bowls. And I, you know, living in the northwest for a year and really getting in the steel heading, you know, it’s it’s amazing like where these big fish can be, you know, they can just suspend in a dish and like a tail out, you know? 00;25;26;21 – 00;25;26;29 James Yeah. 00;25;27;21 – 00;25;28;05 Dave I know. 00;25;28;18 – 00;25;29;03 James So. 00;25;29;11 – 00;25;40;13 Dave Yeah, that’s pretty cool. So when you’re you’re it sounds like you guys are on the boat for the most part when you’re guiding out there. Are you What does that look like on your boat? Are you guys floating a short section, long section or river? How does that work? 00;25;40;26 – 00;25;54;19 James Yeah, it just depends on what we’re going to do for the day. You know, if someone really wants the salmons known for the for the quality water, which is the most famous and that’s where most of our big fish are, is in that three and a half or three and a quarter mile. So, you know, and we can get creative. 00;25;54;19 – 00;26;14;12 James I mean, I don’t know if I want to give away too much of it right now, but, you know, we can you know, I can go like if I go down to the village, take out that’s closer to an eight mile flow. But there’s days where I’ve burned down from Texas. Hold down there. I’ve taken the boat out, I’ve trailer that I’ve driven back up to Texas or dumped it in there, did my thing behind everybody. 00;26;14;12 – 00;26;31;00 James Or, you know, one thing we like to guide is like a super full day. So what I’ll do is we’ll go guide, you know, in the morning we’ll throw streamers all the way down the river and then we’ll take like a three hour siesta, and then I’ll meet my guys and go dump a boat in at 3:00 and fish till dark and throw a dry flies. 00;26;31;00 – 00;26;32;20 James I’m a sick maniac. 00;26;32;20 – 00;26;48;06 Dave Yeah, right. That’s smart. How do you do that when you’re when you’re fishing? Do you fish differently when you’re fishing? Behave. Sounds like if you’re going streamers, it dries. Obviously that’s different. But if fishing the first half versus the second half and say, pressure, water, are you fishing differently then or how are you doing that? 00;26;48;15 – 00;27;05;08 James Yeah, I mean, I think with the streamer stuff, it takes up a lot of real estate on a relatively small section of river and I always want to be courteous to my guy brothers and sisters out there like you can’t the gear, you’re a jerk if it’s super crowded and you’re, you know, dumping a 70 foot cast in between. 00;27;05;08 – 00;27;23;18 James Right. So I just start earlier I the goal with that is I don’t want anyone to see me and I don’t want to see anybody. And I think what helps is like, you know, Kyle and I stream official on our days off and so it’s just kind of you kind of learn the patterns and the flows of how different guides operate. 00;27;23;18 – 00;27;43;28 James And so once you know that, then you know how to not get in their way. So it’s like, Hey, if Ritchie, we don’t have a guy named Ritchie. So if Ritchie is always puts on at 832 and you’re timing him, you know, then you know, and if the sun comes out at 5:00, well I can put on at 5:00, I’m not going to see Ritchie till 32. 00;27;44;13 – 00;27;58;14 James And I think, you know, guiding the other anglers and guides there, you start to notice trends and, and that’s just guiding, adapting those trends and kind of stay ahead of that and stay out of the way. And of course, always being courteous and respectful. 00;27;58;23 – 00;28;12;23 Dave Yeah, let’s say we are on I was on your boat here this week and we were fishing against back to streamers. What would you be Tell me about the stripping. Like the speed, the retrieve. You know, let’s just say we have this spot like we’re seeing where the kind of the froggy, your water mate. We have this area. 00;28;12;23 – 00;28;17;00 Dave We think we want to stall the fish. Talk about how I would be. How you tell me to do that. 00;28;17;15 – 00;28;36;19 James Yeah, I like to say, like, I think most people, you know, strip it too fast. You know, it kind of tantalizing. I mean, we there’s different strip cadences, but one I like to say is kind of like a or, you know, like, you know, like click put, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, you know, and then erratic. You kind of have a certain baseline, but it’s slow. 00;28;36;19 – 00;29;00;07 James And a lot of our fish eat it on the pause. A lot. I would say most of our fish eat it on the pause and I’m going to T-Bone it, you know, because a lot of it is they’re not actually eating it. It’s a defensive cold water eat. So I would say anybody that’s what it is like. If they eat it head first, then yeah, but if most of these fish are just, hey, get out of my face, get in My Lai. 00;29;00;18 – 00;29;03;20 James And that’s what we’re looking for, is that’s why we fish so big. 00;29;04;02 – 00;29;05;02 Dave How big are you guys fishing? 00;29;05;15 – 00;29;09;13 James We fed them, you know, 11 inch flies out there. No kidding. 00;29;09;29 – 00;29;20;04 Dave Wow. And is that is there talk about that about that 11 inch versus say, you know, seven, eight, anything lower? Is there a difference in size of fish or why? Why the 11? 00;29;20;11 – 00;29;39;14 James No, just just so you know, I got to tell you, Dave, sometimes it’s just fun to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks there. You can’t do this. It’s like, well, yes, I can. These trout, the they don’t speak English. They don’t speak any language. They’re trout. You know, they don’t read books. And I think that’s been the greatest joy of guiding the sand line is that like, it’s amazing. 00;29;39;14 – 00;29;56;01 James You know, I have pictures of them with, you know, seven inch mice hanging out of their face like those trap rats that we’ve we’ve mouse them up at seven in the morning, ten in the morning. I mean, it’s that’s why I’m going to guide this river forever is because there are no rules. You’re the one putting yourself in a box. 00;29;56;01 – 00;30;13;05 James I bet they’ll eat a 15 inch. I’ve seen them eat, you know, 16 inch fish. I’ve seen brown trout snap, you know, bump and rainbows like little orcas up on the surface, killing off. And then I’ll just, you know, suck them back down. But, you know, we kind of settle in that 3 to 6 inch range. You know, back to your original question. 00;30;13;21 – 00;30;14;09 Dave Three, six. 00;30;14;09 – 00;30;35;21 James Yeah, 3 to 6. It’s just more manageable. You know, like also the, you know, the way but the streamer fishing, probably the biggest thing too is your casting, you know, and so we get anglers of all skill levels. But I definitely notice, you know, the guys and gals, they can punch it out, you know, 60, 70 feet like you’re going to cover more water, you’re going to show it to more fish, especially fishing. 00;30;35;21 – 00;30;46;29 James Those sink tips in the Froggy or water, you know, those longer casts really allow that. Yep. To set up a little bit better than if you just kind of threw a 20 footer and let it hinge off the side of the boat. 00;30;46;29 – 00;30;51;26 Dave Right, right, right. Okay. So longer casts are better. And do you guys get any wind out there? 00;30;52;16 – 00;31;04;07 James We do. I would say the last two weeks, April till about Memorial Day is kind of the peak of what we would call, you know, peak of the wind. You can have some amazing days in there, but that’s when it’s the windiest. 00;31;04;17 – 00;31;18;27 Dave That’s the one is, okay. So we’re kind of we got a good start here on, you know, again on streamers, there’s a bunch of different techniques, you know, I’m sure we can talk about, but I want stick on the streamers just for a little bit. So what it look like, you know, you mentioned take us through the year a little bit. 00;31;18;27 – 00;31;22;28 Dave Does what we’re talking about change a little bit as we get into, say, through the winter? Into the spring? 00;31;23;07 – 00;31;31;25 James Yeah. I mean, you know, certainly some of our biggest fish on streamers have been caught, you know, in December, in November. I mean, I guess technically it’s not winter, but. 00;31;32;15 – 00;31;35;14 Dave Yeah, when does winter start down there? When do you think of winter starting? 00;31;35;21 – 00;31;40;07 James I think it really I mean, we’re we’re, we’re kind of in like second fall right now. Yeah. 00;31;40;16 – 00;31;50;07 Dave I think what’s the term because you’re in one of those places it’s kind of an oasis a little bit, right. Well, it’s the the right and right now today. And what’s the weather looking like? mid-November, right? Somewhere in. 00;31;50;07 – 00;32;07;23 James There? Yeah, mid-November. The day is going to start, you know, in the thirties, like low winds, 5 to 6 miles an hour and like gusts up to like 12 or 13. And then the deal kind of end around 50, 55 degrees here in San Juan County. So it’s pretty mild. And once that sun comes out, I mean, it’s awesome. 00;32;07;23 – 00;32;14;09 James And, you know, December, you said you wanted me to. I’m sorry, Dave. You want me to walk you through kind of the 12 months? 00;32;14;14 – 00;32;25;25 Dave Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe. Yeah. Start from we’ve been on the November December, which sounds like. I mean, if we were going to pick one stream or time, it sounds like that’s a good time after I guess they’ve already spawned, Right? Or when do they spawn up there. 00;32;25;25 – 00;32;37;11 James Typically it’s all later spawn. Or are we just getting on reds kind of right before I you know, I just got back from Oregon, but right as I was leaving the last day, so that was like, yeah, November 8th. 00;32;37;26 – 00;32;40;25 Dave Okay, so November eight. So this morning, yeah, they’re going for it. 00;32;40;29 – 00;32;59;09 James They’re going for it and it spawns late. I mean, I’ve seen them, you know, they’ll sit on those reds until like middle the middle of December. I mean, you know, I’ve seen them cut reds as early as September, you know. So it’s but I would say the streamer fishing really gets going in March and your window is pretty large. 00;32;59;09 – 00;33;20;17 James March through October is what I would say. And then it kind of slows down March, like kind of march through May. You’re not going to move as many fish in the water is going to be dirtier. We have a phenomenon called the turn over. So when the thermocline inverts on the lake, it stirs the lake up. It’s not as crystal clear. 00;33;20;27 – 00;33;38;28 James And then usually it turns back over in like June or July, some years as late as August. So that’s when the water is like crystal clear. That’s when you can really see them. I mean, I think July and August are probably believe it or not, the two best streamer months because the water is clear. You can move a lot of fish, you can see them interact with the fly. 00;33;39;06 – 00;33;56;17 James And then on top of that it’s hot. But that ambient air temperature bumps, you know, the water comes out of the dam, 39, 42 degrees through to 40 degrees. So you have a couple of 90 degree days and they they can get that water temperature up into the high forties, low fifties. Like it really gets those fish excited. 00;33;56;26 – 00;34;10;16 Dave So that’s the thing. So if we’re coming to you now and the question is, is looking out a year or two or whenever you have availability, I’m asking you. Yeah, okay, we got I want to go out there, maybe we got a couple, few people, a few listeners. You’re saying July or August might be the time. 00;34;10;28 – 00;34;28;25 James Yeah. August is also the other benefit with July and August is that’s also some of our best dry fly fishing. So we can do like a super full day where, you know, three fish in the morning, take that siesta and then go back out and throw big dry flies or throw little dry flies or, you know, whatever, whatever floats your boat. 00;34;28;25 – 00;34;31;25 James You know, we’re very, you know, larvae of, you know. 00;34;32;06 – 00;34;47;00 Dave The this siesta is, I think, a nice bonus on the day of being able to take a little break because, I mean, you’re going to get mid-summer, right? Like anywhere out there, you’re going to get it could be hot or super hot. So you take a little break and then the sun’s going down and you hit it towards the evening till dark. 00;34;47;08 – 00;34;56;10 James Exactly. I mean, you got to be a little off for that one. I mean, that that’s a 10 to 12 hour day. But, you know, if if if you like fishing, then let’s go. 00;34;56;26 – 00;35;10;22 Dave Right? Right. That’s it. What’s the about trout? I think that that name sticks out, you know, in everyday. I remember when I first heard it, it was like, oh, about trout. Okay. It like, really it resonates right away. Where did you did you just pop in your head or do you have to think about that one? 00;35;11;04 – 00;35;31;24 James No, I mean, yeah, it kind of just popped into my head. I was thinking about, you know, outfitter names, branding the CEOs. Terrible. But I’ve really worked. Worked well. I’ve worked on it for the last few years intentionally, but I just wanted something that rhymed that would stick in your head and write about trying to describe it. We are we are about trout. 00;35;31;24 – 00;35;38;19 James We, you know, all of our guides. We like fishing. We fish together on our days off and, you know, Yeah. 00;35;39;25 – 00;35;54;05 Dave Yeah, that’s it. I mean, it’s simple about it’s about try. Yeah that’s a cool they actually what it is, is you think about it a little bit, you’re thinking like okay, what does that mean? And the cool thing is it probably can mean different things to different people, right? To me, I kind of think it’s like about trout. 00;35;54;05 – 00;36;08;20 Dave I’m going a little bit deeper into. I’m thinking, Oh, okay, maybe he’s got some knowledge that I don’t have on the life history of these trout, and I’m sure you do. And you’re around people like you said, Norm, my time you’ve got I don’t know, was Kyle your other head guy? Who’s your head guy? 00;36;08;28 – 00;36;09;27 James Kyle McCallum. 00;36;10;03 – 00;36;22;09 Dave Yeah. McCallum Yeah, I don’t know him as well, but I mean no, I mean he’s like an all star. Like what is it? Talk about that a little bit. What’s it like fishing with that guy. I mean I’ve, I’ve had him on the podcast. Yeah, that must be pretty sweet to have him on the team. 00;36;22;18 – 00;36;41;24 James Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, teamwork makes the dream work. It’s just cool to, you know, fish with high level guys that have been around and see their take, you know, like one thing with Norm, he’s very he’s so humble. He’s such a beautiful person. And just like this day and age where it’s a lot of chest beating and a lot of like, you know, look at me. 00;36;41;24 – 00;37;13;16 James Look at me. Like, I’ll tell you right now, like, Norm is that guy like Norm is an incredible angler. And it’s his approach, you know? I mean, you’d think he he’d have all these secret flies and secret leader formula is normal. Just just the way he his mind works and the way he breaks down a run and picks apart the water and, you know, focuses on, you know, certain features and, you know, thinking trout first and thinking, you know, adapting to the prevailing conditions and trends. 00;37;13;16 – 00;37;38;24 James I just don’t think enough anglers understand how important that is. And that’s a big lesson that I took away from Norm as well as just slowing down, you know, assessing the situation before just jumping right into everything. You know, I think learning from Norm, it’s it’s better to use almost like the wrong fly in the right way that there is no there are no silver bullets in fly fishing unless you unless you pick up Norm’s fly is available at your favorite fly shop. 00;37;38;24 – 00;37;41;19 Dave But right, right, exactly. 00;37;42;00 – 00;37;55;24 James But yeah, I think that’s one thing. You know, Norm, with like, he really schooled us on some like random streamer stuff that, you know, we’ve done a the lower river, which has been really cool. That’s definitely a lot of norm influence there. But yeah. 00;37;55;24 – 00;38;11;28 Dave Yeah, I think that that’s what’s cool about Norm. I think that again in fly fishing the euro anything and just the comp fishing I think some people that you know people aren’t as interested in that or they’re not or maybe it even gives them the wrong, you know, take on it and stuff. But I feel like it’s pretty cool. 00;38;12;02 – 00;38;26;09 Dave I’ve talked to a ton of com fishermen and I feel like you learn a ton. You know what I mean? I don’t know where that comes. Where do you think that comes from? The competition? Is it just the fact that, like, people don’t like being if you don’t like competition in fishing, like where do you think that comes from? 00;38;26;09 – 00;38;28;09 Dave Kind of negative stuff that you sometimes here? 00;38;28;18 – 00;38;55;04 James I just think people don’t like being held accountable. I like I don’t think people you know, competition quantify is something that some would argue doesn’t need to quantified right like I you know I’ll tell you I grew up on the East Coast okay I grew up brook trout fishing. I was not a great crafter. I was you know, but because fly fishing is the solitary sport, I had this massive ego because it was me and my buddy were the only ones I knew. 00;38;55;04 – 00;39;14;13 James The fly fished right? Then I went to the University of Montana and I met real anglers. I’m like, Wow, I suck, you know? And you can either like get better or not. But I think a lot of anglers, they don’t want to go down that path of maybe I should fix my cast, maybe I should learn how to aerial and maybe I should learn how to double haul. 00;39;14;14 – 00;39;34;28 James They just want to buy a guide and get fish. And I don’t think that’s a healthy way to go about it. You know, I think that’s where the hatred for competition comes from, because it you have to look in the mirror a little bit. You know, maybe I could have caught more fish or whatever. Some people just want to throw a dry fly on a creek and catch fish. 00;39;34;28 – 00;39;36;16 James And I think that’s a beautiful thing. 00;39;36;16 – 00;39;37;29 Dave And in that that’s. 00;39;38;03 – 00;39;43;23 James Some people want to take it to the highest level. So there’s something for everybody. 00;39;43;23 – 00;40;04;21 Dave We wrapped up a 5000 mile road trip to Wisconsin last year and our project and from For Real Campers made the entire journey better than we imagined from. 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Let’s take it more into that march time, you know, March and later talk about what your again let’s take it to the water and and talk about when you get the hit. 00;40;47;08 – 00;40;56;15 Dave So you’ve got this thing, you’re stalling. It sounds like they’re usually hitting it when they start. What happens when they do that? Well, what’s your first what are you doing? How do you make sure to get the hook set and what’s not look like? 00;40;56;25 – 00;41;14;25 James You want to grab the flower out with both hands and then jack on it as hard as you can? Like they’ll dance. And that is like going to give you 100% hook up. Now. I’m kidding. Please don’t do that. So it depends. You know, with the fan one, what’s really interesting is these fish are they’re like little cats. 00;41;14;26 – 00;41;30;29 James It’s like, that’s another analogy we’ll use is that you’re like teasing a cat. Like we’ll have those fish eat the fly inside the or wraps of the boats like some of these guys in Montana, in Colorado would have a conniption fit if they heard us chirp to our clients, like keep stripping to keep stripping it all the way to the boat. 00;41;31;04 – 00;41;53;18 James We get a lot of boats. It eats a lot of eats on the lift. So that’s where that 70 foot cast really comes into play because you can fish it from the bank to the boat. We’ve had fish come out from under the boat, eat it. So, you know, you’re either going to get two types that you’re going to have one kind of kiss it little plaque and you better strip set on there and, you know, they’re just mouthing it. 00;41;53;18 – 00;41;59;23 James And then you have fish that just smash it. So the ladder is the ideal, but we do get a lot of plucky eat. 00;42;00;02 – 00;42;07;05 Dave And so like plucky kind of like a like, oh, like that steelhead on the ground or like a steelhead would do a kind of a pluck, a little tap, stuff like that. 00;42;07;21 – 00;42;23;14 James Just like a winter steelhead that like the pluck, pluck and, you know, strip set on that because sometimes you just burn it and you if you don’t hit them right, they’re like, it’s over. They don’t burn on a comeback. And I don’t have like a good comeback fly, you know, we’ll move fish or we’ll move a big one. 00;42;23;14 – 00;42;44;22 James And you know, it’s fleeting because it’s like he’s not coming back. I’ve tried. I’ve sat on some big fish and tried to like, change flies, drop sized color palette. And, you know, that’s just chatter, you know? What did Dr. Seuss say? Don’t cry because it’s over. Smile because it happens so nice. But yeah, that’s what we’re looking for, you know? 00;42;44;28 – 00;42;47;27 James Yeah. Ride down river and hit him with a good strip set. 00;42;48;04 – 00;42;50;17 Dave Is it always a strip set with streamers? 00;42;50;17 – 00;43;19;13 James Unless they eat it right at the side of the body, you know. Yes. Except for we’ve had fish, like I said. I mean I could come followed the inside of the order app. So if they’re inside a rod length away, sometimes you’re not going to able to get that strip steady or get a good positive strip set. Like if they’re that close to the boat, you can hammer them with a trout set like, I would like, like loch style fishing and like a lake or same thing, like when you’re doing like a hanger lift next to the boat and a fish eats it right there. 00;43;19;14 – 00;43;30;04 James You’re not going even have time to strip set. So fishing to hang is another strategy that we use. And a fish eats it on a hang, you know, to drop your rod back down your waist and then strip. It’s that fish is gone. 00;43;30;18 – 00;43;37;04 Dave Is a hanging. Describe that a little bit Is that how do you guys do that? Is that after at the end, once you get it near the boat. 00;43;37;18 – 00;43;55;26 James Yeah. If you get it under the boat near the boat, you can just leave that fly in the water and slowly lift vertically, let that fly, hang. And a lot of times these fish will follow, just like lake fishing for your audience that’s familiar with. That’s like the streamer fish, especially in the frog water, the deep water, you won’t even see them and you’ll leave your fly there then, right? 00;43;55;26 – 00;43;58;21 James It’s like Shark Week. They pass right at the side of the boat. 00;43;58;22 – 00;44;01;26 Dave Wow. Are they hanging out? How far below the surface is that hanging? 00;44;02;07 – 00;44;23;13 James I have? It depends. You know, sometimes we’ll hang it five feet down, sometimes we’ll hang it, you know, a foot. Okay. You know, and then utilizing, you know, I’m I like to tell my people and I personally like to manipulate the fly a lot with my lying hand versus doing a lot of jerk strips. I just find that a lot of people can eat in between jerk strips and then they can’t. 00;44;23;13 – 00;44;43;27 James Or when they do, it’s not like we even get that many eats. Doing it with a jerk strip is super effective is when you get a hot fish and we see this a lot, these fish will follow at 20, 30, 40 feet. And when they get that close and you’re starting to run out of line, the strip, you know, using that strip to change a direction or drag it around the boat can usually excite them and get them to eat it. 00;44;44;10 – 00;44;57;17 James But they’re you know, they can be lazy. They can be. That’s what makes it so fun is, you know, it’s like a you never know where it’s going to come from. And that’s what keeps me it’s keeps me intrigued is it’s always different. 00;44;57;17 – 00;45;07;17 Dave Is that what you when you’re on your own and on your time off, when you’re fishing on your own, are you mixing things up with what are you or what’s your game plan look like that are you to do you go in for streamers? Mostly, or What are you doing? 00;45;08;03 – 00;45;26;02 James Yeah, it’s funny, Dave. I feel like I’m starting to become the person. Like, you know, when I was a kid and working in a fly shop, so you’d, like, listen to these guys, like, you know, fast action rods are ruining fly fishing or, oh, bobber fishing, you know? And I was like, You guys are idiots. Well, now you know, of my day off, I streamer fish and I fly fish. 00;45;26;02 – 00;45;35;20 James I will indicator nymph if I have to figure something out. And I’m not pooh poohing that. I mean, that’s what pays the bills. That is like I want to be very upfront like. 00;45;35;20 – 00;45;38;28 Dave You guys are do a lot that. So you guys have bobbers on your rig throughout. 00;45;39;16 – 00;45;58;17 James The bobber in my boat right now? Yeah. I don’t I got a light rig, a heavy rig and a medium rig. Like I don’t play around when my clients show up. My other rig. Here you go. Like, I’m not going to be gone in 30 minutes yet. We’re fishing. But, yeah, you know, if it’s me, like, you know, if I’m floating, I’m going to throw streamers and throw dries. 00;45;58;17 – 00;46;19;00 James I’ve been really getting into fishing like a Skagit set up for trout when I’m waiting. It’s not. I don’t know. I said I would never try to, like, build a program around it. But the hard part with the one is with the Wade anglers, the like. And what I mean by that is, is you now coming from a two handed background, it takes up so much space, right? 00;46;19;00 – 00;46;34;26 James And unless you’re within a two handed area, you know you’re fishing down river and so you know some guy, it’s their second time fly fishing and they walk through the bottom of the run. Your swinging, that’s your fault because you knew, right, that that poor person has no idea you don’t. 00;46;34;26 – 00;46;35;22 Dave Own the river. Yeah. 00;46;35;25 – 00;46;48;17 James Yeah. You know better. So like I got some spots Dave, with like Rob poppin with a two hander, like pop in, pop out, leave like, I don’t want anyone to see me, you know, I’m not there to get into these these guys and girls ways. 00;46;48;25 – 00;46;49;06 Dave No. 00;46;49;15 – 00;46;51;27 James But yeah, that’s my new my new thing Is this. 00;46;52;05 – 00;46;54;23 Dave What way is this a2a super organism. 00;46;54;29 – 00;47;02;18 James Yeah, I’m. I’m fishing is 7116 man. So yeah, I guess for those that that’s an 11 and a half a foot seven weight. 00;47;02;28 – 00;47;10;01 Dave So which, which is kind of like a you always go up a few couple sizes. Right. So it’s almost like a nine weight kind of if you compare the green weights. 00;47;10;11 – 00;47;27;17 James Yeah. With those water loaded cars too. If they’re on a bigger streamer it sticks. So to have that, you know, like that 475 grain had dumped that big streamer over it’s great and you know I when I was in Oregon I really wanted to skate one. I had never thrown like a triathlon until this last trip. I want to start skating. 00;47;27;17 – 00;47;35;22 James I’m on the lawn. I think that would be awesome. And I know I know some runs, I can go do that then. So that’s something, you know, my next couple of days off that right. 00;47;35;26 – 00;47;41;11 Dave When were the time that you would be skating have your best chance at any are you talking brown trout or are there some rainbows here too. 00;47;41;19 – 00;48;01;19 James Yes, some big rainbows Are going to eat the streamers as well. You’d be surprised. I mean, they, you know, the rainbows or pluck it more. You know, I think with them especially, it’s more of a territorial response than eating. But, you know, they eat fish too. They eat each other. You know, we don’t have a forage fish on the one, which is why I think it makes it such a great streamer fishery is these trout or cannibals. 00;48;01;27 – 00;48;03;01 Dave Right. 00;48;03;01 – 00;48;07;10 James And the state stocks like that’s the other crazy thing with Seattle. 00;48;07;11 – 00;48;10;01 Dave Oh, they stock it too. Their stock and little guys they stocked. 00;48;10;01 – 00;48;33;05 James Yep exactly. They stock to to seven inch rainbows to grow. We do have our rainbow trout population. The reproduction is so limited it’s not even worth mentioning. But like if you they’re all triploid females. So if you catch a male. Gotcha. You know Jurassic Park life finds a way. But remind me and I’ll send you a picture of a 17 inch brown trout with two seven and rainbows in its mouth. 00;48;33;05 – 00;48;36;06 James One coughed up. And so they can say. 00;48;36;21 – 00;48;37;20 Dave Yeah, I would love to see that. 00;48;37;28 – 00;48;42;01 James Yeah. And so and the rainbows eat them too, you know. But yeah. 00;48;42;01 – 00;48;45;00 Dave Yeah. So you got rainbow. So you got both species out there. 00;48;45;09 – 00;48;48;10 James Yeah. So the state’s basically just like feeding our brown trout. 00;48;49;13 – 00;49;02;05 Dave Yeah. Man. So you got this. So you’re doing the space. So that might be something that you do a little more bio. So when would be the time when you might be able to get a, a fish come to the surface and would that be a rainbow or a brown on a two handed spay. 00;49;02;23 – 00;49;07;16 James Either or and I’ll keep you posted if I hit one before this goes live, I’ll I’ll send it to you. 00;49;07;19 – 00;49;10;14 Dave Know. So you think this time, maybe even this time of year, you could swing something up? 00;49;10;20 – 00;49;26;09 James Oh, mean I. Yeah. Before I left, I, you know, I swung, you know, to swing for brown trout, but that’s with tips and stuff. I think I could skate one up first thing on the way, because a lot of those times, you know, in the shallow water, too, I mean, they’ll blow it up off the surface, you know, the streamer when it hits the water. 00;49;26;09 – 00;49;27;29 James So I think I could skate one. 00;49;28;00 – 00;49;28;19 Dave That’s cool. 00;49;28;25 – 00;49;29;21 James Now, but. 00;49;29;28 – 00;49;48;10 Dave I think the nice thing about that is and we know because obviously we have a ton of swingers you know in the in the group in listeners and stuff is that you know there’s people that are just just like you said, just like the streamers, but people that just want to swing, you know, they got it one way or all the way up to a ten way spay, you know, and that’s all they do. 00;49;48;16 – 00;50;04;18 Dave So this would be another every day, right? I’d love to fish the San Juan. You know, what is the the San Juan. So there’s a few kind of definitely famous rivers. What are the other ones out there? Maybe describe that somebody who doesn’t go back to the high level picture where San Juan was the closest town to the San Juan? 00;50;04;26 – 00;50;21;16 James No, absolutely. Dave. And I will say, you know, for yes, there are swing opportunities on the San Juan, but it’s very a lot of micro buckets, like a lot of little troughs, a lot of little runs that you’re maybe only going to be able to sneak six or seven steps into and then pop out. But it it’s I’ll tell you what, there’s gold there. 00;50;21;16 – 00;50;46;01 James If you know how to look for it, you will find it. But in terms of flying in the US, you know, Durango is the closest airport. We’re about 40 minutes from the Durango Airport to Navajo down where the San Juan is. The other option is flying into Albuquerque, and then it’s a three hour drive up the highway. So if you are unfamiliar, if you look at a map, New Mexico is basically like a rectangle. 00;50;46;01 – 00;50;49;24 James And the top left corner, that’s basically where the sand on it. 00;50;50;00 – 00;50;53;10 Dave That’s awesome. And what town are you in? You’re in Durango? 00;50;53;28 – 00;51;00;21 James I’m in Bloomfield, so I’m. I’m sorry. I’m in Blanco. So I’m Blanco. New Mexico. Driver’s license. Spanish? Yeah. 00;51;01;01 – 00;51;04;04 Dave Yeah. But you go back and forth or do you fish Colorado quite a bit. 00;51;04;09 – 00;51;26;11 James I you know, I got to say, I do. It’s the guides first, right? Like you’re always on the water. I it might be a hot take, Dave, but I’m passionate about fishing in the San Juan. I love that river and every day off that I can. I’m going to fish the sand lot, you know, Of course I’ll go pop over and fish the charm of New Mexico, slide up to the Animas, you know, mix some stuff up, maybe hike into a lake. 00;51;26;11 – 00;51;29;15 James But I. I don’t know, man. All I want to do is there are streamers. 00;51;30;08 – 00;51;34;07 Dave That’s the way. And what’s the KFS typically does? It gives it vary a lot throughout the year. 00;51;34;14 – 00;51;39;02 James It does. I would say, you know, like in the winter flow, it’s 300 is not a lot. 00;51;39;15 – 00;51;42;14 Dave Oh right. Yeah. But so right now. Right now is it. 00;51;42;17 – 00;52;02;14 James It’s right now. Shoot. You know, like I said because I was you know, I’ve just been communicating with all the guides like, well I was, you know, I was in an say where I was in Oregon. Yeah. I was in the mountains of Oregon, and I had to drive like 15 minutes in the cell service every day. And and I would talk to the chat with the crew. 00;52;02;14 – 00;52;18;01 James And I’m really fortunate we work with some we have a really good team at about trout. It’s we definitely it’s very cohesive and I love that culture that we we have here. I’m looking for a flowchart Well they just fall about. 00;52;18;02 – 00;52;23;01 Dave That’s right. Yeah. So just roughly roughly this time of year you’re going to get in the more of the 303. 00;52;23;01 – 00;52;23;25 James To 500 and. 00;52;24;01 – 00;52;26;25 Dave Three or 500 and then the springtime or what are you guys fishing? 00;52;26;25 – 00;52;55;26 James That same thing. They just, you know, the spring they could really like, especially in April, you could see flows 700 880, 700, 800 is actually my favorite flow. I like it up at a thousand. I like it up at 1500. The thing to note is because it’s a tributary to the Colorado River, they we have it this year, but they usually, you know, around May or June will blow the river out to 5000 CFS which is still fishable. 00;52;55;26 – 00;53;13;18 James If you’re floating you wouldn’t want to it’s not very wade friendly. You could actually die. But in the boat it’s totally safe, totally fine. But we haven’t had that just because of, you know, unfortunately the droughts and the other reason it’s it’s nice to have a tail water because no matter how hot I mean the trout shouldn’t even exist. 00;53;14;05 – 00;53;16;23 James It was only ditch in the desert, but dry. 00;53;17;03 – 00;53;21;11 Dave Yeah. Without without that dam. This is the San Juan is not the same river, right? 00;53;21;19 – 00;53;22;01 James Yeah. 00;53;22;08 – 00;53;34;01 Dave Yeah, it’s different. Okay, we’re going to take it out here in a bit, but any other items you want to kind of note on your program? I know we’re kind of we’ve hit on streamers a little bit. It sounds like you guys do a little bit of everything throughout the year. 00;53;34;11 – 00;53;56;08 James Yeah, I don’t you know, streamers definitely aren’t a monolith. I mean, day in, day out, like we’re mostly guiding indicator rigs and whether it’s your first time or your thousandth and first time, you know, we want to work with you. You know, I think the post COVID bubble is kind of over in terms of newer anglers coming into the sport, but, you know, we love seeing new faces. 00;53;56;08 – 00;54;08;00 James It I don’t think fly fishing needs to be intimidating. You know, like my dad didn’t fish, my grandparents did, and my grandparents are immigrants. Like, they definitely didn’t fly fish despite my grandma from Jordan. Like, you know, there’s no rules. So. 00;54;08;08 – 00;54;17;11 Dave Yeah, right. Atlantic salmon, maybe, maybe not that wasn’t there a movie? I think there is an old fly fishing movie about the summer out there in the Middle East. 00;54;17;19 – 00;54;18;26 James Salmon fishing in the Yemen. 00;54;19;02 – 00;54;21;19 Dave Exactly right. In the Yemen. That’s what it was in. 00;54;21;19 – 00;54;40;04 James The Yemen I wish but yeah so it’s yeah, it’s funny. Yeah I think like we just have that mentality of like, you know, we were it’s a team, you know, and I want to work with our anglers, our guys want to work with anglers and whether you want to indicator fish, you want to work on learning how to double haul, you want a year on and you want a year a half with. 00;54;40;23 – 00;55;04;06 James And my time I like the, you know, the Tiger Woods Michael Jordan type character. We have you covered. And I think, you know, that’s the other thing as we move forward with the brand and with what we do down here is the salon’s an excellent dojo. So even if you don’t like trout fishing, let’s say you have a peacock bass trip coming and you want to just throw big streamers all day to see what it’s like and just learn how to do that. 00;55;04;06 – 00;55;29;08 James Standing in a boat, that’s a great skill set. That can be a one for one or, you know, maybe you’re in Minnesota. It’s a lot warmer in January in New Mexico than it is there. You can tighten up your you’re on anything game. You can still catch them on dry fires in January. It’s hard February’s when early picks up but it’s doable and I think that’s the fun part of the one is no matter what you want to do, you know, we can make it happen for you. 00;55;29;10 – 00;55;36;09 Dave You can do it. What is the temperature wise? Is it get pretty cold? They’re like, what’s the coldest? You’re out there fishing. 00;55;36;15 – 00;55;47;04 James Oh, gosh, I got it a couple days and seven degrees in January. So, yeah, you know, if you don’t like the cold, don’t worry about seeing us until about the first week of February. 00;55;47;04 – 00;56;02;07 Dave Yeah. So but you guys get so you’re out there a little bit. So I had a recent listener was asking he was talking, he wants some cold weather tips, maybe gear, whatever. What are your you know, what would you be telling him if you guess he’s going to be out there to how to not freeze your butt off in the cold? 00;56;02;07 – 00;56;05;04 Dave Seven degrees. What are you doing? What would be your big tips? 00;56;05;06 – 00;56;35;23 James Oh, I love this. Let’s US split it into waiting. Where’s bow fishing? So waiting if you are waiting one number one wool socks, Number two, base layers. So I use the sims layering system. I just like Sims, but there’s a lot of different companies that offer that. So make sure you’re layering. And then kind of the biggest life changing thing recently has been the electronic hand warmers where you can just charge them up on a usb-c they get hot instantly and oh wow, I got to tell you, that has been life changing. 00;56;35;23 – 00;56;38;19 Dave Do you have a name brand on those or just electronic? 00;56;39;03 – 00;56;48;00 James I used I got it from my sportsman’s warehouse. They’re called Thaw. Okay, I think. And they make two models. I have the you can charge your phone off it if you’re in a pinch. 00;56;48;00 – 00;56;49;06 Dave Wow. Yeah. Yeah. 00;56;49;06 – 00;56;53;05 James I got to say, electronic cameras, I believe it’s thaw is the company. 00;56;53;05 – 00;56;58;02 Dave Yeah, I see. I see it. Yeah. Right here. Yeah. Thaw a rechargeable hand warmer with integrated flashlight. 00;56;58;10 – 00;57;24;27 James Yeah. Those have been the biggest. I have them for my clients. And so in the boat probably the best tip I can give is I like to wear a bib. And the reason why is because in the winter I can wear my MOC boots with wool socks with layers. Because if you’re going to if whether you’re coming to see us on the same line, you’re going to Montana, you’re going to go to California and do their winter fishing program, the East Coast, wherever. 00;57;24;27 – 00;57;41;17 James If you’re wearing your waders in a boat and before you step into the boat in the morning, you get water in between your boot and your bootie. If you’re wearing stocking foot waders, you’re going to get really cold, Right? So by wearing something like a bib and like MOC boots, you have waterproof boots. 00;57;41;17 – 00;57;45;15 Dave And so you wear no, no, you have your waders and then you put my boots on over the waders. 00;57;45;15 – 00;57;48;20 James No, no. If I’m in the boat in the winter, I’m guiding in a bib. 00;57;49;04 – 00;57;52;04 Dave Also, no way to see you’re not going over your knees on wading. 00;57;52;06 – 00;58;03;25 James No boat? No. If I’m my boat, I’m layering up. The Bib Revolution is a very real thing in the fly fishing world. And the boat. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Being in a boat, I hate wearing waders. If I don’t have to see. 00;58;03;25 – 00;58;17;05 Dave I’m a little of the old are the opposite. I love the waiters, you know, and I love getting although I haven’t thought about that the freezing that with the boots and stuff but I kind of love the way or especially I’m the type that I’m ready to jump out just jump out of the boat and dive for the fish. 00;58;17;05 – 00;58;25;09 Dave You know what I mean? Like it. And I feel like you can’t do that. You’re in your boat, you’re not jumping in the deeper water. You’re kind of using that net. I’m sure you guys have a massive net out there. 00;58;25;19 – 00;58;39;13 James Oh, got the extender? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I wish really a lot of it because we get asked that like, hey, can we get out of the boat and Wade and they do that. And while we would love to do it it just it’s like it’s more of like a guts guide etiquette thing, if that makes sense. 00;58;39;13 – 00;58;42;12 Dave Like, Oh right, yeah. You don’t want people running around all over the place. 00;58;42;19 – 00;59;01;21 James It’s that and right. If I, if I’m guiding clients in a run, I could cut that run off from like a couple other boats. You know, there’s kind of what’s legal, there’s etiquette and there’s guide etiquette and in most places, etiquette guide. The guide is like whether we’re working for different outfitters or not, we’re all in the same team and out there for the same reason. 00;59;01;21 – 00;59;02;12 James So you’re. 00;59;02;12 – 00;59;02;28 Dave Stuck on. 00;59;03;00 – 00;59;05;01 James One big dysfunctional family for sure. 00;59;05;04 – 00;59;22;24 Dave Yeah. What is that like for you? And you’re a guide out there and you see somebody who is maybe not a guide in there, maybe doing some weird stuff. I mean, what do you do and what would be the recommendation for somebody else out there? Because we’ve all heard these stories, right? Whether it’s running into a landowner or another angler. 00;59;22;24 – 00;59;28;19 Dave And there’s some you know, some fight occurs or, you know, something crazy like what do you do when you see somebody doing something weird out there? 00;59;28;27 – 00;59;42;25 James You know, the river wasn’t made for me to have a job. The river wasn’t made for guides to have a job. Like if you’re you know, if you’re fishing in a crowded area like that’s on you, like, just be more creative, you know? You know, look, every once in a while things are going to happen. There’s going to be misunderstandings. 00;59;42;25 – 01;00;09;17 James Like, I get that, you know, And sometimes, you know, people just don’t like guides. And I get that, you know? But, you know, in terms of etiquette, it just varies river to river. Like if you’re fish in the top of Texas whole and expect to have that to yourself and not have five dudes around you at 830, 9:00 in the morning, that’s you know, it’s like going to the Black Friday sale at Wal-Mart for flat screen TVs and like, expecting nobody to be there. 01;00;09;17 – 01;00;28;12 James Like, that’s kind of on you. But I think, you know, in terms of etiquette, it’s it’s just respect. And, you know, my thing is like just guide better fish better like I’m not a one spot type guy. And, you know, even if I do get cut off or whatever, I’m I can just go try to find fish somewhere else and stay positive and have fun with it. 01;00;28;20 – 01;00;47;22 Dave Perfect. Well, before we get out of here, I got two questions for you here. One is going to be on the Tiger King or in finish up with the Tiger King. But before that, I want to hear about a couple of tips. So back to streamers. So you were getting ready to go streamer fishing. Maybe it’s December, you know, what are you telling me as I’m thinking about going out there? 01;00;47;22 – 01;00;52;07 Dave Maybe maybe I’ve been on the San Juan, but I’m not like an expert. What what are a couple tips for giving me? 01;00;52;18 – 01;00;57;20 James Yeah, if you’re if you’re wade fishing, looking for those depth changes, kind of having different sizes. 01;00;57;20 – 01;01;00;11 Dave Yeah. Let’s talk Wade, because we’ve been talking boats a lot. Yeah. 01;01;00;11 – 01;01;18;14 James So if you’re waiting, you know, looking for those depth changes, you’re going to want to have lighter tips. You could even fish a floating line with a lightly weighted streamer, you know, slowing it down, slowing down your retrieve with what I would tell you. And then, you know, in terms of color palettes, whites, blacks. 01;01;18;14 – 01;01;22;19 Dave How slow can you go on a retrieve? How slow as is too slow? 01;01;22;26 – 01;01;38;24 James I don’t believe in too slow. But, you know, if you’re fishing a tip, you’re going to find out real quick when you hang up on the rocks. So but I think, you know, mixing it up, think erratic, slow strip. I mean, anywhere from three inch strips to six inch strips, then you can pump it out to 18 inch strips. 01;01;39;08 – 01;01;56;05 James But just keeping a nice, you know, a wounded trout doesn’t move on a particular rhythm. You know, it’s not like tic tac to do it. It’s not like a song, you know. So just mix it up, slow it down, you know, and look for those places where clean. Believe me, anywhere you throw a streamer on that river, they’ll eat it. 01;01;56;05 – 01;02;17;24 James So just just trust the process and realize you’re not going to go out there and go like it’s not a numbers thing, You know, like on our best days in the boats, like, yeah, we’re moving 60. I hate to even talk numbers so we can shop that out, but like I’ll put it this way, like and our best days where we’re moving tons of fish, but of those half of them eat it and of the half they eat it, half of them stick and then it’s up to the anglers. 01;02;17;24 – 01;02;21;13 James So it’s about watching that interact again and. Right. 01;02;21;16 – 01;02;33;10 Dave So do those numbers again. Well, we’ll just make up a number. Let’s just say it’s a 100 fish. Go through that. Let’s just say talk about one that’s even you have one fish. You, you throw two or what was the number of what were the numbers, the odds, the percentages? 01;02;33;16 – 01;02;51;10 James Oh, yeah. I guess there’s still like there’s days where like, oh we can just do it like just sixties easy. So like, like we’ll just make up a number, like on a good day. Like, let’s say we make you move 60 fish on a streamer. I’m not taking ether blowing it, flaring at it, you know, doing what trout do of that usually half of them are going to eat it. 01;02;51;12 – 01;03;03;23 James That’s 30. And then like the set the hook and you know, no one’s given 100. So you know of that to move that many fish. It’s, it’s a low numbers game like you’re going to land, you know, maybe 5 to 7 of those. 01;03;04;02 – 01;03;13;05 Dave Yeah. So those are the eat it, you’re getting 5 to 7 which is, which is yeah, I’m bad with the numbers but yeah, it’s like ten 20% of the fish. 01;03;13;05 – 01;03;18;01 James If I was good at math I wouldn’t be a fishing guide. Let me tell you, I failed out of school. But look at me. 01;03;18;09 – 01;03;40;20 Dave 20%, which is actually, I think I always go back to the baseball, you know, the the batting. You know, they say the the difference between a 400 hitter. Not sure if you’re a sports fan, but 400 hitter, a 300 hitter and 200 hitter, which is like, you know, four hits out of ten. Three hits out of ten, two hits out of ten, the person that hits 200 is, you know, you’re kind of in that average. 01;03;41;00 – 01;03;56;22 Dave You know, the 300 is like a great hitter and a 400 as a Hall of Famer is like the greatest of all time, you know, if you average those numbers. Right. So for a ten, that’s a similar thing. We’re talking about these fish. If you hit if you hit two, two out of ten, you’re probably doing pretty good. 01;03;56;28 – 01;03;58;28 Dave You shouldn’t feel bad if you’re missing a bunch of fish. 01;03;59;02 – 01;04;18;25 James No, not at all. We miss them, too. Like when we fish for fun like I do. Obviously, everyone misses fish except me. No, I’m kidding. You know, it happens, and I just want to say I am always very leery of talking about numbers because it’s not really about that. Like what the streamer fish in. Like what we want to show our clients is that visual that that fish, you know? 01;04;18;25 – 01;04;24;02 James David Copperfield, Criss Angel Mindfreak comes out of nowhere bull and blows it up, you know? I mean. 01;04;24;10 – 01;04;25;00 Dave That’s what it’s about. 01;04;25;07 – 01;04;27;09 James Yeah, that’s what it’s about, you know, And. 01;04;27;09 – 01;04;37;21 Dave It’s not even about landing, although landing a 33 inch fish is is pretty spectacular. But it’s really. Is it for you like about seeing that the fish everything up to where it hooks up. 01;04;37;21 – 01;04;54;17 James Yeah. I mean I think you know it’s just we knew it was possible and you know, Kyle and I have done this on our days off for a long time, and we’ve had that conversation like you, one of us is it’s going to happen. It’s going to happen. And like, I’m so happy that it happened for him. And like, you know, we just believed it so much. 01;04;54;17 – 01;05;09;14 James And the hours that went into that and the discussions and the fishing and that’s what makes all that just so special is he went out looking for a big fish, put his guy in a big fish, and it usually doesn’t happen that way. So when it does, it’s it’s time to celebrate. 01;05;10;00 – 01;05;27;06 Dave Well, leave us with you know, for those people who always love a random one to take it out of here. The Tiger King, you know, for those that didn’t I mean, we’re not talking about Tiger Woods. Talk about like for those that never heard of this guy, why did you reach out to this guy and maybe describe mine from your perspective, who he was, What he why he was famous? 01;05;27;16 – 01;05;46;12 James Yeah. During the Tiger King mania, there was like a character in the series. It’s based on a true story named James Garretson. So, like, it was very weird because, like, during that time, I’d like be Time Flies and I’d listen to a podcast like, you know, this James Garretson character. I can’t believe he would do that. And that’s that’s not that common of a name. 01;05;46;24 – 01;06;01;22 James So I had reached out to James Garretson with a1ti spell Lethal, our last name with two T’s. And so I reached out to James Garretson from Tiger King and we wanted to collaborate, maybe do some content. It kind of fell through, but I would have just they would have I don’t know if the world the Internet could have handled two. 01;06;01;22 – 01;06;12;07 James James Garretson And one both sides. So it’s about it’s about having fun. I mean, we had Mark McGrath, Sugar Ray do one of our river reporters. Oh, you know, so yeah, yeah. 01;06;12;10 – 01;06;29;27 Dave So that’s so funny. I haven’t been to a lot of concerts. I’ve been to I’ve seen Merle Haggard, I’ve seen more of that stuff. Willie Nelson. But I did in college see Sugar Ray at a college. It was a just a concert. So it he had this. He had the one. What was the what was the song again? 01;06;29;27 – 01;06;30;27 Dave He had the one hit. 01;06;31;00 – 01;06;32;07 James I just want to fly. 01;06;32;11 – 01;06;33;26 Dave There you go. There you go. 01;06;33;29 – 01;06;36;24 James My Frosted Tips Landmark Bluegrass. Awesome. 01;06;37;26 – 01;06;41;21 Dave Nice. But who was the time he went to prison? Didn’t he? Didn’t James Garrison go to prison? 01;06;42;00 – 01;06;50;06 James I don’t think. I think he like I think he was the one that went to the FBI. So I forgot the name of the real Tiger King, the guy with, like, the goatee and the blond hair. 01;06;50;06 – 01;06;51;13 Dave So that’s not James Garrison? 01;06;51;13 – 01;06;54;03 James No, that. Yeah, the Tiger King was Joe Exotic. 01;06;54;03 – 01;06;55;07 Dave Oh, that’s right. 01;06;55;10 – 01;07;03;15 James Which is definitely his birth name. But James Garretson, I think was the one that like was he I think he added, I’m not totally sure. 01;07;03;15 – 01;07;09;25 Dave Oh, yeah. Tiger King star James Garrison, arrested in Florida. There you go. Yeah. So we got all sorts of good, good stuff. 01;07;09;25 – 01;07;13;10 James Yeah, he kind of looks like my Uncle John. So, I mean, maybe, I don’t know. 01;07;13;10 – 01;07;18;01 Dave Yeah, he looks different than you. Yeah, he’s got a nice beard. I don’t remember this guy. I don’t remember James Garretson from the movie. 01;07;18;08 – 01;07;22;22 James He was riding jet skis, I think. I don’t know what I think he owned Lake. I don’t know. 01;07;22;26 – 01;07;35;21 Dave And what was the what was the take off again for the quick take the Tiger king. People can watch the Netflix series but what was so weird about the whole thing what was he doing? He was collecting. He was a tigers, right? Yeah, tigers. They had a some animals on his property. 01;07;35;24 – 01;07;44;06 James Yeah, he was collecting tigers. He had kind of like a, you know, broken down zoo. I think one of his employees, the Tiger King, got attacked by a tiger. 01;07;44;06 – 01;07;47;18 Dave Oh, yeah. And somebody got their arm something got their arm eaten off. I remember. 01;07;47;18 – 01;08;04;20 James That. And then like PETA and like a lot of these, like, animal rights groups are like trying to like, put pressure to, like, shut him down. And there was like Carole Baskin’s, they had another big cat rescue. And so they were they were fighting. I think he tried to get like get her assassinated all over tigers. 01;08;04;20 – 01;08;05;07 Dave Right. 01;08;05;07 – 01;08;05;22 James So. 01;08;05;23 – 01;08;07;10 Dave That’s right. All over tigers. 01;08;07;10 – 01;08;09;29 James Yeah, that’s it’s a wild world. We live in death. 01;08;10;11 – 01;08;27;27 Dave Man. That’s the. Well, I guess it’s we’ve kind of digressed, I guess a little bit, but I always love getting some random stuff, so I guess let’s take it back here. James, any I mean, as we take it out of here, I always love the book question. I’m guessing you guys are in fiberglass skiffs as that were used out there. 01;08;28;04 – 01;08;57;11 James Yes, Ira, I have an ad oppose flow skiff. Just love the design of that. I just sold. I had a row. I had a row skiff and it was 25. I just sold it to the younger guy out there. So it’s it’s living on. And that boat was sold to me by a guy that used it. But what you’ll see on the lot on Kyle Rosa Clarke, a headhunter, lot of head hunters, a lot of ad oppose, We a lot of us rode skiffs just because in the summer we mentioned the spring winds. 01;08;57;20 – 01;09;18;11 James But the layout on that ad opposes it. I have a trolling motor block on it, too, and I have a trolling motor. I just have yet to put it on a lake, which I did with my other boat. But love, absolutely love, adipose skiff. It’s it’s awesome. Just up nice. You just upgraded the seats to those wise marine seats and the comfort levels are outrageous. 01;09;18;11 – 01;09;21;27 Dave Now, who are these with? Like, do these have armrests on them? 01;09;21;28 – 01;09;23;00 James They don’t have armrests. 01;09;23;00 – 01;09;23;22 Dave But not quite. 01;09;23;29 – 01;09;33;05 James There. No, they’re mesh. And there’s like a bar that goes back. There’s some back support in there, some lumbar. So it’s it’s like a whole different situation now. 01;09;33;18 – 01;09;52;29 Dave Sweet. Awesome. James Well, I think definitely we’re we’re going to have to follow up with you and do another one down the line, but I think we can leave it there and send everybody to about TrueCar.com if they have questions for you. And I just want to thank you for all the times that this has been a lot of fun and hopefully you can get out in your neck of the woods here and maybe this winter, maybe in the next few winters and we’ll check in with you. 01;09;53;11 – 01;09;55;17 James Awesome. Thank you very much, Dave. Appreciate the opportunity. 01;09;57;14 – 01;10;15;25 Dave There you, go. If you enjoyed that one, you check in with James go to about trout dot com and let him know you heard this podcast we’d love if you can connect with us as always on Instagram on social also YouTube go to RFI, swing on YouTube and subscribe to follow. We’re going to be having more videos coming out as we go this year. 01;10;16;09 – 01;10;38;11 Dave I would appreciate that fall over there and if you’re interested in trips, so we’ve got a good one coming here. We are heading up for Northern Pike, finally putting Northern Pike together up in Canada, up in Saskatchewan. So if you’re up in that area or you want to travel and check out Saskatchewan Pike fishing, everything we have going, we just launched a giveaway so you can go to RFI swing dot com slash giveaway right now if you want to enter to win that. 01;10;38;11 – 01;10;56;14 Dave We also have a trip for going up there too. So if you want to check out more information, send me an email. Dave, our Facebook income. All right. Appreciate you for stopping in today and share in the show or sharing this with someone you love. I hope you’re having a good morning. Good afternoon or good evening. And we’ll look forward to talking with you on that next episode. 01;10;56;14 – 01;11;03;14 Dave See you then. Thanks for listening to the wet fly Swing Fly fishing show for No. Ten links from this episode, visit. 01;11;03;14 – 01;11;04;03 James Brett Fly. 01;11;04;03 – 01;11;08;27 Dave Swing, Dotcom you.