Do you remember when intruders took over with big profiles and tons of flash? But what if the real edge is going smaller? In this episode, we’re digging into fishing smaller flies for Great Lakes steelhead and salmon, and what happens when you shift from bulk to balance and from heavy push to a more subtle presence.
Alex Belonga breaks it down, from Temple Dogs to sparse hair wings, plus how presentation, movement, and fly design all play into getting more eats.
Hit play to start listening! 
Find the show: Follow the Show | Overcast | Spotify
(The full episode transcript is at the bottom of this blogpost) 👇🏻
Sponsors and Podcast Updates
Show Notes with Alex Belonga on Smaller Flies for Great Lakes Steelhead
About Alex Belonga
Alex picked up a vise back in 2018 and just went all in, tying flies almost every day. It became a big part of how he stayed connected to fishing, especially during the long winters when everything freezes up.
These days, things look a little different. He and his wife run a greenhouse and floral business. Between that and family life, he’s stepped back a bit from tying flies commercially, but he’s still active and sharing what he’s doing.
The Munker Fly
The Munker was one of the first flies Alex tied back in 2018 when a guide buddy up near Ontario asked him to tie something with a zonker and a deer hair head.
Alex didn’t even know what it was called at the time, so he went digging, found some videos, and that led him to Kim Sorensen.
The Munker is tied on a short tube with a bead at the back. You tie in a zonker wing, then add a deer hair head. But the key is you don’t stack a bunch of hair. You just spin a sparse clump once and keep it wide.
That wide deer head is the whole deal. It pushes water and acts like a little turbo cone in front of the fly.
👉 Watch Alex Belonga tie the Tsunami Munker:
Munker vs Muddler: What’s the Difference?
Alex broke this down in a really simple way. The muddler is usually a smaller fly. You’re often fishing it on a lighter setup, letting it skate or sit in the surface film. It moves around, dips a bit, and has that buggy look. It’s a go-to for summer steelhead and even Atlantic salmon.
The Munker is a different deal. It’s bigger right away. More like a leech or intruder-style fly. It’s tied on a tube, with a zonker in the back and a wider deer hair head.
That head is left long and flared, so it pushes more water. And instead of skating it, you’re pulling it down with a sink tip. Different size, different setup, and a different way to fish it
How to Fish the Munker
In really clear systems, Alex will go lighter. Longer lines, longer leaders, and smaller flies. Fish will move up, so you don’t always need to go deep.
Most of the time though, the Munker is fished like a classic winter fly.
- Swing it under a sink tip
- Let it pulse through the run
- Go heavier if you need to get it down
You can also use the fly’s buoyancy to your advantage. With a heavier tip and a little rod movement, the fly will dive and rise, almost like a plug. That motion can trigger fish that are just sitting there.
Understanding “Pushing Water” and Fish Behavior
Alex said pretty much any fly with mass will move water when you swing it. That’s just part of pulling something through the current.
Where it gets interesting is how people try to enhance that. Things like cones or turbo discs get talked about a lot. Some say they push more water, others say they just help keep materials from collapsing. Alex said he hasn’t overthought it, sometimes they just look good.
The real key is how fish respond. They’re feeling movement through their lateral line. That’s why patterns built for darker water or tough conditions often focus on more movement. It’s the same idea as spinners. More vibration, more presence, and sometimes that’s what gets a reaction when nothing else is working.
Other Flies and Styles
Alex has tied flies for both Great Lakes and West Coast anglers. He said it was kind of all over the place depending on what people needed.
He got into Scandi-style flies like Temple Dogs, which not as many people were tying locally. He also tied patterns using Snowrunner, inspired by Jaap Kalkman. These were simple flies with longer fibers and more structure, tied with things like a bead, marabou, and reverse-tied materials.
He also spent time tying intruders, especially the flashier West Coast style. And over time, he ended up tying a lot of Munkers as well.
Best Fly Colors for Different Waters
Alex said color depends a lot on where you’re fishing. In the Great Lakes, fish tend to feed more, so he leans toward natural colors that match baitfish.
- Olive, brown, and copper
- More “trouty” colors
- Black and copper
- Black with a bit of green
He said these often work better than the big, bright stuff people usually think of for steelhead.
Out west, it’s different. You see more bold colors like:
- Black and blue
- Pink and orange
- Purple and blue
Those are more about contrast and visibility, especially in bigger water.
Temple Dog Flies
The Temple Dog is a classic Scandinavian pattern, usually tied on a tube with layered wings and a hackle in between. It has a slim, teardrop shape and a strong baitfish look in the water.
What makes it stand out is how it moves. It’s lighter and sparser than bulkier flies, but still has presence. It swims differently, and that alone can make a big difference when fish have seen a lot of the same patterns.
He also mentioned that going lighter and simpler can help more than people think. Flies that are easier to cast and present often end up fishing better. And when you’re not the first person through a run, showing fish something different can be the edge.
The St. Mary’s Rapids and Great Lakes Diversity
Alex’s home water sits in a unique location where Lake Superior flows into Lake Huron. The St. Mary’s Rapids offer a mix of species rarely found in one system.
In a single river, anglers can encounter:
- Steelhead
- Atlantic salmon
- Chinook, coho, and pink salmon
- Kamloops rainbow trout
- Brook trout, sturgeon, and more
Connect with Alex
If you want to follow along or connect with Alex, you can find him on Instagram: @straitsonthefly_customflies
Sponsors and Podcast Updates
Related Podcast Episodes
Full Podcast Transcript
Episode Transcript
WFS 908 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: Do you remember when intruders took over Big Profile’s flash movement? But what if the real edge is going smaller? What if the fish that just slid past your size two intruder would have eaten a sparse size ten hair wing? Today, we talk about the other side of modern steelhead and salmon fishing. In this episode, we connect where Lake Superior pours into Lake Huron and we break down what happens when you shift from bulk to balance, from heavy push to subtle presence. Alex Belongie is here, and he’s going to share all these details, including the temple dog versus the bulky intruders. We’re going to get into what this pushing water is all about. We’re going to talk about tubes versus double flies and what actually lands more fish. We’re going to talk Great Lakes migratory rainbows versus coastal. It’s all here today. And if you’ve ever stood in a run wondering where to go bigger or if you should actually go lighter, this conversation is for you. All right, let’s get into it. Here he is, Alex Belongie. You can find him at Straits on the Fly on Instagram. How are you doing, Alex? 00:01:04 Alex: Good day. How are you doing, buddy? 00:01:06 Dave: Pretty good, pretty good. I’m excited about this one. Today we’re going to be talking back into steelhead flies and kind of everything you do. Um, I think I first heard about you on In the Bucket, Brian had you on the podcast episode number six. So that was a couple years ago. People can go back and listen to that story. You’re on there with Trevor and, uh, I think was what, who was the other guest on there? I can’t, was it just you and Trevor? 00:01:27 Alex: Yep. Just, uh, Trevor and I and Brian was, uh, spent a lot of time on that one, too, so. 00:01:33 Dave: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. So basically we have that episode and then, but today we’re going to talk more. We’re going to dig deeper about, you know, tying flies, steelhead flies, fish and all that. But just give us an update in the last couple of years, maybe what’s been going on with you? 00:01:46 Alex: Yeah, man. So I’ll back up just a little bit. Twenty eighteen, I picked up a vice and, you know, just started tying really loved it. And, um, you know, it was just kind of tying every day. And, uh. It really helps to feed the addiction, um, up north here because in the winter time where I’m at, um. We just lock right up, everything freezes. So we don’t really get to go out for four months or whatever it is. But last couple years, I mean, um, my wife and I own a business. It’s a greenhouse and florist shop. So we do, you know, grow in the greenhouse like bedding plants and hanging baskets. And she runs a full floral shop. So we do a lot of weddings and full setups anyway. Uh, that’s grown quite a bit. And of course, our kids are growing and getting older. So I’ve been slowly stepping away from, you know, commercial fly tying, uh, but still staying active on social media as well. 00:02:50 Dave: So you’re still out there going strong. Nice. Yeah. And maybe we could just fly. I don’t, I’m not that familiar with the flag. Maybe we can start there at the top. We’re going to bounce around a little bit, but maybe describe what that fly is. 00:03:01 Alex: Yeah, yeah, that’s a that’s a good one because I feel like maybe if anybody knows me for anything, you know, I’ve tied that quite a bit and it’s, uh, somewhat of a unique fly. Um, the munker fly, that was the first fly when I started tying in twenty eighteen, I was friends with, um, a guide across the border in Canada. And I lived forty five minutes from the Ontario border right there. So we’re pretty close. And, um, he wanted some monker flies for his home river. He didn’t say the word monker basically, he described it, you know, a fly with a maybe a little zonker and a kind of a deer head on it. And so I, you know, being a new fly tire, I went, um, to YouTube and, um, I think I might have reached out to Stuart Foxhall to and said, you know, any videos on how to tie something like that? And it sent me to Kim Sorensen, um, who actually invented the Monker fly and that fly essentially. I mean, the original design of it is just a short tube with a bead, right, right on the back. You start tying there and he puts, uh, an American possum zonker wing, and then he does this deer head essentially, which is just a really wide, um, deer head. But it’s not, it’s you don’t keep stacking and stacking hair. You do it one time and just try to spin a sparse amount of hair, but that’s really wide. And effectively the deer head becomes like a turbo cone in front of that body of the fly, you know? So, uh, I will say here in the States, though, our North America people have been tying, um, Patterns like that, though the Zedler is one that’s been around for a while. I haven’t, you know, looked into it too much, but it was, you know, a rabbit strip on a hook with a muddler head. Um, so people have been doing stuff like that for a while. Um, yeah, the monker is just, you know, that’s, uh, Kim’s name and it has a distinctive, uh, shape to it. Um. 00:05:18 Dave: It’s interesting because I mean, we’ve asked, I’ve asked a lot of steelhead anglers on this podcast, you know, about like what their favorite fly is. And I’ll bet you a muddler if I had to guess, maybe comes up more than any other, you know, at least. 00:05:32 Alex: Oh, yeah. 00:05:32 Dave: Right. Yeah. And so the muddler is no question is a and the difference between this and a muddler is that it’s just basically it’s. Well, there’s a few differences, but the head’s a little bit bigger. It’s not quite as trimmed or how would you describe the big difference between the monker and the muddler? 00:05:47 Alex: Sure. I mean, one one would be size of of the fly, you know, so the muddler most people when they fish a muddler, myself included, they’re not going to run a heavy sink tip, although taking flies that kind of want to float and pulling them down a little bit on a light sink tip is a good trick. But most I think most people with a muddler, you know, they’re going to run a long leader, a Scandi line. Uh, some of the more modern mid Spey lines that are out there now. And, um, just let that thing dance up on the surface, get in the film, do whatever it does, right? It kind of skates, it kind of goes under and it’s a smaller buggier, um, pattern that’s going to be used more. What you guys would call summer steelhead, though I’m sure plenty of. 00:06:36 Dave: Atlantic salmon probably would be. 00:06:38 Alex: Oh yeah. Yeah, Atlantic’s quite a bit. But I mean, that being said too, I know there’s guys who skate and use Muddlers all winter long for steelhead, you know, and it’s um, yeah, the, the muddler just kind of works. And, you know, deer hair is just kind of magical, I guess. You know, on a fly. Something about it. Um, so the difference with this is this fly. I mean, you can tie it on any platform, but you know how Kim does it would be on a tube. Um, you’re going to put a big zonker on the back. It’s going to have that size of like a winter steelhead fly that we think of, right? Like a big leech or kind of intruder size fly. So I mean, the size right off the bat is what separates it. And then the deer head on, on the monker too. You know, you’re going to use much longer. You’re going to leave the the tips of it and everything flared out to the back. So it’s going to be much more of a water pusher and you’re going to pull it down with a sink tip, right? So it’s going to be used on a Skagit line or some sort of multi tip line. So the way you’re going to fish it’s going to be different too. So yeah. 00:07:51 Dave: Yeah. And so describe that. How would you fish that maybe describe. Are you fishing more steelhead in your area when you go out? What is your home water. You’re fishing there. 00:08:00 Alex: Yeah. So I mean, we, we have, um, I’m kind of in a interesting central location somewhat. 00:08:08 Dave: And where are you again? Remind us again, what city are you? 00:08:10 Alex: Yeah, I’m in Saint Ignace, Michigan, so it’s great. Michigan is basically, uh, two peninsulas, right? The lower and the upper. And I’m right in the Upper Peninsula. And there’s a bridge that connects it to the Mackinac Bridge. And as soon as you drive up from Lower Michigan and cross the bridge, the first town you’re in when you cross over the bridge is Saint Ignace. And essentially that little area right there is called the Straits of Mackinac, and it’s where Lake Huron and Lake Michigan converge. The Mackinac Bridge is the, you know, official dividing line of Lake Michigan, Lake Huron as well, too. So, so it’s a great spot. So there’s I live right on Lake Michigan and Lake Huron. Wow. And then north of me, you know, little less than an hour’s Lake Superior and all of its trips as well. 00:09:06 Dave: Man, you’re right in the middle. Man, you are right in the middle of everything I am. 00:09:09 Alex: I mean, I’m only, you know, a few hours away from like literally three hours from Lake Michigan tribes, like the good ones, like the Muskegon, the big man, the Pere Marquette, the Sable is not far from me either. It’s only two, three hours, depending on where you want to hit it. Um, we have some couple great rivers in the U.P.. They’re not as prolific as like the Lake Michigan Tribs. Um, as far as fish and size, but there’s way less people on them sometimes you’re the only person and I’ve kind of gravitated more towards that. Um, home river though for me I would say is the Saint Mary’s Rapids. And essentially we, we just drive north. There’s the international bridge that connects, uh, Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan to Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. And the way to access that river and come in and wade and fish it is to drive across into Canada and come through the Canadian side. And it’s, um, it’s a real interesting waterway. You know, if you look at it on Google Earth, I mean, it’s somewhat ugly in the sense and I want to be careful how I say that. But yeah, there’s like, it’s industrial because on the Michigan side is the whole lock system for the freighters going in between Superior and Huron, because there’s like a thirty foot plus difference between Superior and Huron. So they had to build. Yeah. They had to build a whole lock system right there with gates and everything else and that runs that whole stretch. And so you drive into the Canadian side and there is wilderness. It’s kind of an island, and you got to hike through that and you get onto the rapids. And it’s essentially the flow of the rapids, though, is controlled now by the gates that they set up to control the flow of superior into Huron. So it’s just unique and it’s set up right? 00:11:14 Dave: Oh I see. Yeah. So superior flows into Huron. 00:11:18 Alex: Yeah. We’re essentially fishing. Lake superior’s tail out is one good way of looking at it because that whole river system is massive. I mean, it it it goes for several, you know, it it goes for fifty, sixty miles to connect to Huron. But at the mouth of Huron, it’s a mile or two wide. And you know, the water flowing in it is just as cold, you know, as the lake that the fish are swimming up into. So they move up into that river, uh, early and kind of on the feed, you know, not really turning or moving into their spawning mode as quick, you know, they’re actually hunting up through that, that river. So we’re able to target them. Oftentimes we get just super fresh fish, right? That are not, um, I haven’t begun to turn, haven’t switched to that whole spawning mode like most other rivers in Michigan. So yeah, it’s just a unique waterway. 00:12:20 Dave: Is this near Churchville, the town of Churchville? No. What’s the nearest town where you’re where you’re fishing? They’re on the the rapids. 00:12:28 Alex: Well, the town itself is Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. 00:12:31 Dave: Yeah. Okay. 00:12:32 Alex: And then, I mean, there’s other towns in Ontario, but that’s mainly just, um, soo Ontario as that whole city that’s, uh, right there on that river. So yeah, I see. 00:12:45 Dave: And the rapids. So you’re fishing that area. The rapids are right in that area. Right. Like right in the downtown area. 00:12:49 Alex: Yeah, exactly. You just cross the international bridge and you’re. Yep. You gotta drive to the right a little bit and cross another section. But it’s pretty much all right there. Yeah. 00:13:00 Dave: Right there. Okay. And then you’re fishing for fish that are basically migrating. And that’s the cool thing. These steelhead, right? They’re migrating between the two lakes. Is that what’s going on? 00:13:10 Alex: We think so. It’s actually an interesting concept. Some of them are, um, staying there are spawning there for sure. Some of them we think might be swimming under the gates and heading into, uh, superior as well. And then there’s some that kind of just hang out in that system all year as well. And there’s also, uh, they still have the Kamloops strain of rainbow trout in that river, which is, I think that’s from BC and they’re a fairly large resident. Um, rainbow trout as well. And I that might be the only spot in the Great Lakes to find the Kamloops I know. Ernest Hemingway, that was one of his favorite waterways to fish and specifically for the Kamloops rainbows that were in there. 00:14:02 Dave: So Golden Fly Shop isn’t your average fly shop. They have a twelve foot shark painted like a cutthroat, hovering over a huge selection of the best rods in the business, a massive assortment of tying materials, and their famous steakhouse streamer display. And it’s the hub for a community of anglers who never stop tinkering with new ways to catch fish. Sometimes the conversation behind the counter includes what hatches are going off and what techniques are working best. Then tales of destination fishing adventures sought after species are a good old congratulations. When a customer brings stories of finally connecting with that fish they’ve searched for forever. Were they growing online store in a budding YouTube channel? You’ll be able to follow along with their fun antics, international adventures, and helpful fly fishing tips. Golden fly shop where the community is hanging out even if they’re supposed to be working. That’s Golden Fly Shop.com. Check em out right now. Fly fish with me. Utah discover year round blue ribbon trout fishing on the famed Provo River. Choose a guided walk and wade or a scenic float and experience big trout, stunning canyons, and unforgettable days on the water. You can book your adventure right now at Fly Fish with Me Utah.com. World class water. Incredible fishing that’s fly fish with me Utah dot com. How do you the moniker describe that? How do you fish the monker? I’m not. Are you fishing in this section sometimes. 00:15:28 Alex: Uh, that, you know, the Saint Mary’s is a really clear waterway. And in the fall, I will, um, that particular river system really lends itself well to longer Spey lines, long leaders and, um, smaller type flies just because of how clear it is and how alive the fish are. You know, the high oxygen water kind of churning through the gates and, and everything. And I’ve kind of discovered they’ll chase, um, flies and take them up high as well. So I’ve kind of changed my game there, but most other, um, Great Lakes, rivers and tributaries, I should say, you know, the Monker I, I like quite a bit, especially when it’s, you know, um, whenever the steelhead are in, in the spring or in the fall when there’s high water and it’s usually kind of cold and I’ll run it just under a sink tip like you would any other, um, uh, fly, you know what I mean? Any other winter steelhead fly, whatever your favorite setup and section of T material or whatnot. Sometimes I’ll accommodate if I really want to go deeper. You know, maybe run a heavier tip to kind of balance out the deer head that’s on it. But yes, swing it through and pulse it through. There’s a there’s another way you can do it too, which is if you have wide enough of a stream, especially, you know, think like a king salmon, Chinook salmon. Sometimes they pool up and show themselves and just get lockjaw, you know. Well, one way is to run, you know, your really heavy sink tip, maybe even a multi density head and kind of lengthen out your tippet on the bunker a little bit and, you know, cast. So it’s coming over top of them and kind of like jig or pulse your rod, you know, because you have that heavy maybe a multi density Skagit heavy sink tip and what that fly is going to do since it has a little bit of buoyancy, then by giving it that extra tip, it is, it’s going to kind of, um, you know, like those quick fish plugs. You know, if you reel on them, they dive down and shake, but but then they kind of rise back up. They suspend almost, you know? So it’s kind of a dirty trick, but, you know, any fly that has some buoyancy to it, you can apply that technique to it. You know what I mean? 00:17:54 Dave: Right, right. That’s awesome. 00:17:56 Alex: Almost like you would a pike fly or something. 00:17:59 Dave: Yeah. Like a pike fly. How many flies out there? And you tie quite a bit through your. I mean, I know Brian, you guys talked about this on the podcast that I think you’ve tied a lot of flies for him for the system, but how many of the flies are pushing water versus, say, doing other things out there like this one, or would you describe that? Is that what this is doing? Is that the main thing this is doing is kind of or is it more floating? 00:18:19 Alex: No, no, I think you’re kind of pushing water to some extent. You know, I, I mean, that’s an interesting concept. I guess I would say any thing that has physical mass underneath the water when you swing it through, I mean, it’s moving water to some extent, right? Like you can’t pull something through the water without it having some sort of push in the water. 00:18:44 Dave: Yeah. This is a physics, right? If we had just physics master here, it’s like it seems to be that it would push water, right? If you’ve got some structure going through the water, that it’s pushing that water out of the way. Just like the I mean, there’s other things I always thought that, you know, what are the disks called, you know, that you put on the front, they’re. 00:18:59 Alex: Turbo discs or. 00:19:00 Dave: Are those meant to push water or is that for something else? 00:19:03 Alex: I you know that. Okay. So the claim is that they do either or push water or create like a little vortex for water to go around to maybe protect your marabou right from it just collapsing. Um, you know, I’ve, I’ve heard people on both sides say, you know, just some dubbing up front works just as good, if not better. If we put it in the water tank. We can’t tell the difference. Um, and then I’ve heard other people say, no, it is nice. And, you know, by the shape of it, the water flows over. And, you know, I think those are meant more for protecting, you know, making the water fly over your softer material so it doesn’t collapse. You know, I’ll be honest with you, I put them on because they kind of look nice, you know? 00:19:57 Dave: Yeah, they look cool. 00:19:58 Alex: Yeah. So I can’t say I’ve never gone under and studied it. I do know one of the ways though that fish you know, hunt is they sense something moving in the water. 00:20:09 Dave: Yeah. They sense their lateral line. 00:20:11 Alex: Right. And so and I guess my thought there too is, um, I mean, anything in the water, you know, no matter how streamlined it is or whatever is going to create some sort of noise, just the physics. So everything moves water. Um, I don’t know if it’s just maybe it’s semantics moving, water, pushing water. You know, I’ve seen sculpins underneath the water that have bigger heads. You know what’s interesting though, is I kind of was thinking about that when, you know, Kim, when I kind of discovered that the monker is a pattern and I was tying it and, you know, looking at Kim’s theory behind it, and it was designed for us. And he lives in Denmark and fishes a lot of rivers up there, though, up into Sweden and Norway. But um, it was designed around the Danish rivers, I guess that come in pretty muddy and dark. And um, for Atlantic salmon. And this provided more push in the water maybe to allow him to see it or feel it. You know, however a fish does that and it, it seems to work quite well. I was thinking about pushing water. I mean, a lot of times when I was first tying flies and trying to figure out what colors for our fish, I would just, you know, Google what to, um, you know, uh, spin fisherman, just normal gear fishermen. What do they like to fish for steelhead in the Great Lakes or what colors did they use? You know, and that kind of sent me down the rabbit trail of like map spinners. Right. And I think out west there’s blue fox spinners or there’s a couple, the Steelhead Hammer Company. Well, if you go on their website or maps, you know, they’ll tell you, you know, like what does a spinner actually do? Well, a spinner like pushes water and makes a lot of noise underneath there. And on the maps website, you know, it says, you know, our spinners, you know, catch fish when they’re not eating regular bait and when the normal stuff doesn’t work. Now, I know there’s a lot of marketing in that, but there’s something to be said there, right? Because spinners catch fish all over us. And so maybe. You know, if you were to kind of apply that, you know, to the bunker when the. When the fish are maybe not actively biting or whatever, you put something else under there. That makes a little bit more noise and they go after it, you know? 00:22:50 Dave: So yeah, yeah, no, that all makes sense. 00:22:53 Alex: I mean, people have used things like that for steelhead and salmon and pretty much every other species that you can find in a lake and a river in North America for a long time. You know, I mean, ever since maps came out with spinners. So. 00:23:10 Dave: Well, that makes a lot of sense. What about on some of these? So we’ve got the fly. What are some of the other flies that you’re tying or in the past that maybe that you’ve tied some of your popular patterns and are you tying for Great Lakes West Coast kind of all over the place? 00:23:22 Alex: Yeah. So when I was tying in orders and stuff, it was kind of all over the place. There were some on the Great Lakes. There was a good amount on the West Coast and I mean, I haven’t really invented any patterns. You know, I’ve. I suppose you could say maybe I’ve put my touch on a couple or whatever, but, you know, I got into that Scandi style flies quite a bit like temple dogs and stuff like that. And they’re just, you know, not as many people tying those over here. So I would spend a good amount of, uh, temple dogs out there. Started tying some cool patterns with Snow Runner that I were inspired by, like Yap Coleman’s style flies, you know, um, snow runners just, uh, a hair material, you know, and I would use it like somebody would use craft for it’s a little bit longer, more structure. So just kind of reverse tying hollow, tying that against a bead and a couple wraps of marabou and some simple kind of stuff, you know, and the flies call it the runner. So I sent quite a few of, um, those out as well. I did go through a, you know, a little season there where I was tying. A lot of rere intruders and they, you know, they’re fun to tie. They’re really pretty. And you know, that would be more of a West Coast style too. So but I seem to have tied a lot of munkres as well for people. 00:24:46 Dave: So what do you think on colors are the colors? What would be your top colors for winter or for steelhead? Do you think that you’ve. 00:24:54 Alex: In the Great Lakes? 00:24:55 Dave: Yeah. Is there a difference between Great Lakes versus the West Coast? 00:24:59 Alex: I think so. I mean, one, you know, technically the steelhead here, you know, because they haven’t gone into salt water. Um, a steelhead. And I think, you know, and that’s a debate that can be a lot of fun or people get really angry about, oh yeah, I tend to have fun with it a little bit. You know. 00:25:18 Dave: Who gets the most angry on that debate? I think the. 00:25:21 Alex: Guys on the West Coast, I mean, and I don’t want to attack them too much, But like, because all of us here, like everybody I know on the Great Lakes that loves steelhead. You know, we all seem to share kind of a passion for the wild steelhead out west. A lot of us travel out there and, you know, even though we’re not there and as involved, I know, you know, quite a few anglers here in the Great Lakes, Jeff Linsky. Oh, yeah. As one of them and a lot of guys on the West Coast came from, um, the Great Lakes too, right? As Zach Williams was swinging the fly and just a lot of great dudes, right? And so they all care very passionately about wild steelhead. And so for us here, I don’t think we put as much of a divide on. I will say this though. Um, you know that what that changes though is that since our fish don’t come from like salt into fresh water, I do think that they feed, um, a little bit more. You know, the big question, why do steelhead bite a fly right in the water? And that’s one of those things. They have it broken up into a few categories they’re certain of, but we can’t tell for certain. Um, I can say I do think that the, you know, our steelhead, the migratory rainbow trout, uh, do tend to feed a little bit more like actively when they come into a river system. So for me, when you say color, where I’m going with that is you’re going to kind of want to match the baitfish forage in our river systems. And so as far as Lake Michigan goes, um, Kevin Feenstra has a book out there. The, the bait fish are matching baitfish and that helped me a lot. So I, I tend to gravitate more towards, you know, those natural type colors, whether they be the different shades of olives or browns, you know. And copper flash and and that that the stuff that you would, um, that a lot of guys kind of shy away from, um, maybe a big winter steelhead fly and I guess essentially more of those trout y colors then. 00:27:39 Dave: Yeah. And I’ve seen the book here, the, uh, matching baitfish patterns and techniques for Great Lakes, steelhead and Lake Run. That was twenty twenty. That’s pretty cool. So Kevin, put that out just a few. Yeah. I mean, six years ago, but that’s, that’s a good book, good resource. 00:27:51 Speaker 3: And there are a couple bright colors in his. 00:27:54 Alex: I mean, I know one color on the Great Lakes is kind of a secret. Um, I haven’t tried it out west at all. It’s like black copper, Kelly green, you know, stuff like that. And if you look at like Kevin’s, um, his, uh, the Halloween leech and then the grapefruit leech, you know, and stuff. There’s a lot of black in that with a ton of flash and those seem to work pretty good. So yeah. 00:28:18 Dave: That’s it. So and then West coast On the other hand, if you’re talking west, what would be the top kind of. Colors? Maybe two or three. 00:28:26 Alex: Well, I can tell you. I mean, I’ve only fished out there so much and. 00:28:29 Dave: That you tied a ton, right? 00:28:30 Alex: I have, I have, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, for me, all my trips out west have predominantly been chasing Chinook. Oh. Because I’m a salmon guy through and through. I love steelhead, but Atlantics and Chinook are kind of my favorite fish to chase. But yeah, I mean, so sending patterns out west, I mean, the variations of the black and blues, you know, black, orange, blue, black, purple, blue, the orange and pinks, those shades. Um, and then once in a while I’ll talk, you know, a guy into man, why don’t you have like, um, olive and copper or something, you know, as a good change up fly up in there, you know? So I haven’t yeah, pretty much out west. Um, but you’ll get guys who like, you know, maybe like white and orange or, or red and orange or black and reds and stuff like that, depending on where they’re at or their system, you know? 00:29:27 Dave: So yeah, that makes sense. Where were you? Chasing Chinook on the West coast. 00:29:32 Alex: Yeah. So I went up to Brian’s Lodge here two years in a row. Um, so we were on the Kitimat and then the, the Skeena system. I went to the Connect.org a few years ago with, um, Alaska West, I think. Is that. Yeah. And I was in Southeast Alaska one time, so I’ve officially taken like four trips for chasing, um, Chinook out west. So which is pretty rad. So yeah. 00:30:04 Dave: Yeah. And you’ve done some Atlantic salmon fishing too. 00:30:07 Alex: Uh huh. 00:30:08 Dave: How do they. Is there a comparison? Like Sam versus Chinook salmon? 00:30:11 Alex: Yeah. Well, I, I haven’t done enough. I haven’t, like, hooked into any of the really big Atlantics are or whatever. And you know, to me, yeah, there, there’s a difference. But the, you know, Atlantics and um, early season, I guess like Norway and stuff like that, you know, they’re fishing them with pretty heavy, um, sinking lines and multi density tips and large flies. So it seems like they’re fishing those early season Atlantics kind of similarly to how you’re right, right to how they fish Chinook out west, but then the Atlantic, the season kind of changes, you know, and next thing you know, they’re up top with like size twelve or size ten flies. You know, Newfoundland is a lot like that. And that’s where I was. 00:31:03 Dave: Oh, you were in Newfoundland. 00:31:04 Alex: Yep, yep. So we were chasing with kind of, you know, way up high. No tips or anything. Yeah. So I just haven’t gotten to do like a full season of Atlantics, you know? uh, in rivers that you would you get in the Atlantic season just goes on much longer too, because they don’t die when they spawn. So I there’s a little overlap, I would say for from what I’ve researched from early season Atlantic salmon, uh, like in Norway or Russia where they’re fishing huge flies and heavy sink tips and all that kind of stuff. Right? That little window for Atlantics, uh, for the big ones are pretty similar for sure. And then, yeah, the way they fight and stuff can be a little bit different. 00:31:53 Dave: So yeah. Where do you, uh, fish in Newfoundland? Did you hit one river or a few? 00:31:58 Alex: Oh, man, we hit a few. We were at that, um, help me out here. I went with my buddy Tim and Dave to. 00:32:06 Dave: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You went to Portland Creek. You went to Portland? 00:32:08 Alex: Yeah. 00:32:08 Dave: Portland Creek. So you’ve been to Mountain Waters Resort? Yes. Oh, awesome. This is perfect because I’m going up there for the first time. Yeah. This year. 00:32:15 Alex: But I’m like, I’m one of those guys. I don’t remember like numbers or names. Oh, sure. We, we, we hit a couple spots within that area, right? Like there’s the home water and then there’s, um, a couple of other rivers. Or maybe we were just farther up like one morning. I remember it took us like, you know, three hours to get to where we were going to fish, like driving up into it. And we were, we were pretty close to where like Lee Wolfe and his wife, uh, and everything else like that. So. Yeah. 00:32:49 Dave: Yeah. Did you guys find some salmon there? 00:32:51 Alex: I did, yeah, I actually had a lot of luck on that. Right. Um, yeah. Um, it was an interesting trip. I think everybody did hook up. I had some banner days and there was just one day I was there and you know, I had all the small wet flies or whatever and undertakers and. 00:33:13 Dave: Right. 00:33:13 Alex: I had purchased a couple, tied up a couple. You know, and, um, just kind of went with the guide’s recommendation, but the guide was there and he had a bomber and he goes, do you want to try this? And, um, I don’t know if anyone had put one on yet at that time. And, you know, bomber fishing is I guess it has to be, there’s a certain window for it. And he felt like it was the right time. And man, I put that thing on. And that day I, I think I had five or six on really. Yeah. I didn’t land any of them. 00:33:48 Dave: Um and they just tear you up. 00:33:50 Alex: Yeah, yeah, I know I, I was doing something wrong too because they’re, they’re like, hey, you gotta keep your ride high, which was different for me. And maybe it’s because, you know, they’re using smaller barbless hooks there. So you do want to put some of the shock into the rod tip? Maybe. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. 00:34:10 Dave: Because you’re using small stuff. You’re using like size what, like eights or tens? 00:34:14 Alex: Yeah. They weren’t. I mean, I guess the bomber hook was bigger. I don’t know, maybe I just fumbled in and failed, you know? But I had fun nonetheless. But. And I wasn’t just catching grills, though. There was a couple nice. Yeah. Salmon that were on the end of my line. So I took that as a win though. That was pretty fun. 00:34:31 Dave: Oh yeah, that’s a win. I feel like steelhead Atlantic salmon fishing. If you’re if you’re getting the tug you’re hooking up and you got. Yeah, it. 00:34:37 Alex: Was just in a three hour window. I had like five or six on that spot. 00:34:42 Dave: So was that on Portland Creek or Extreme UPS? Another stream up around. 00:34:46 Alex: We went upstream. 00:34:47 Dave: Yeah. You went upstream? 00:34:48 Alex: Yeah, to a different spot. And I forget what that one is. I’ll ask my buddy Tim when we’re done. I’ll tell. 00:34:54 Dave: You. 00:34:54 Alex: Where that was. 00:34:55 Dave: So that’s all good. No, it’s awesome and it’s good to hear you got some action. Yeah. 00:35:00 Alex: What’s funny with that though too, man, I, I gotta tell you a little story. I had a guide, you know, because we were switching through guides and a lot of them up there aren’t really big into the two handed thing. I’m. Some are, but most aren’t. And and you don’t necessarily need it. And there’s a case to be made about using the single hand rod and presentation and everything. Well, we got to this spot and there was, you know, two fishermen with their guide and they had already fished through the run a couple times. You can keep one or two grills, I think up there. I can’t remember what the rules or regulations are, but I know you can keep a certain amount of fish. And so they they had gotten their two grills and decided to walk off the river. Um, but I was watching them while they were fishing and they, you know, were just using the single hand rods and they weren’t really casting out more than twenty feet in front of them. So I actually had like a, a switch rod and a, like a short spey rod too. And so I started like launching out the bomber, like, uh, father because I could see fish rolling out there and the water had some chop on it. You know, it was overcast. There was a little drizzle. So, you know, I wasn’t worried about, you know, spooking him with like a, um, using like a, a shooting head or something to cast out. And man, I just started having a ton of luck out there. You know, just. Yeah, yeah. And I had the wrong setup too, man. I’ll tell, I’ll tell. I wouldn’t, I would not recommend this setup for Atlantic salmon going back there, but I had like a short Skagit with a floating tip and just like everything wrong about it for Atlantic salmon and. But the thing was, like I said, the water was really choppy. No one had fished out to these fish out there. Right. Because it’s kind of hard to reach that with trees behind you and not having to backcast room. And so I just, I walked up to the head of this whole run, you know, and just started casting that bomber out and kind of, you know, the way the guide showed me maybe to present it through. And I just started up and worked down and every few casts I would have one on, you know? 00:37:20 Dave: So no kidding. 00:37:21 Alex: Yeah, I’m not kidding. And I tell people that and they’re like, because I hear people say all the time, you know, two handed rod, why would you use it? And you’ll just spook fish. And and I get that. I mean, I think in different. 00:37:33 Dave: Yeah. Splashed in the water and stuff. 00:37:35 Alex: Yeah. But I would me personally, I mean, I’m a two handed rod kind of junkie, so I would still take a twelve foot, you know, um, seven way. 00:37:45 Dave: And is that the rod? Is that the rod a twelve foot or not anything bigger? That’s about the right length. 00:37:50 Alex: It depends on where you’re at. If I was going to go back to that area, Portland Creek, I would personally. I mean, if I was just going to take Spey rods, I would probably take a twelve footer and that seven weight type category, and then I would take a fourteen footer and that like, um, eight nine categories. Something like eight, nine, ten. Let’s just say that. 00:38:11 Dave: For lower River. Yeah. Yep. 00:38:13 Alex: Yep. For the lower. And then because that twelve footer with and you can run an integrated, um, kind of spay line or whatever. I mean, there’s all kinds of options, gale force. I mean, I use their rods and lines. Uh, Tim’s tributary line would be awesome. 00:38:29 Dave: Oh. The tributary. Okay. 00:38:30 Alex: Yeah. Oh, yeah. For the wet flies and stuff. And, and I would, I personally would use like, um, kind of a multi tip, something with a little bit of power behind it for bombers, you know what I’m saying? And you would be running it all floating or whatever, but they’re a big bushy fly. And if I were to do it different, I would run more Scandi grain weights and finesse, you know? But yeah, I think it works great. 00:39:00 Dave: When it. 00:39:00 Speaker 4: Comes to premium flies that deliver results drift. Hq.com is the name to trust this season. Whether you’re chasing trout with dry flies, swinging streamers, or dialing in those Euro nymphs, they’ve got everything you need. Here’s a quick story. I was fishing a tricky Spring Creek earlier this year and nothing was working. Then I pulled out a royal wolf from the drift hook box. I cast upstream, letting it drift effortlessly toward a holding fish. It was textbook. One of the biggest fish in the run rows slipped the fly and the fight was on. That’s definitely a moment I’ll never forget. Their flight kit shipped free. Straight to your door, fully stocked and ready for action. You can support a great small business right now and this podcast by heading over to drift hook dot com today. That’s drift hook d r I f t h o o k. Use the code at checkout to get fifteen percent off your first order. Pescador on the fly offers a full spectrum of fly fishing gear for any angler at any budget. By bringing high performance rods directly to the angler, they eliminate the middleman markup, saving you time and money. The top tiered El Rey series is designed for serious anglers, with the El Rey G6 being the most packable high performance rod on the market, and most anglers who try the G6 can’t believe it is a six piece rod. It performs just like a four piece. There’s no difference in performance whether you’re fishing local streams or embarking on your next adventure across the world. The G6 delivers precision and power wherever you go. You can get ten percent off your next order right now if you use the code Wet Fly at checkout, that’s Pescador on the fly dot com. Use the code Wet Fly swing for ten percent off. Never fly without your G6. Discover the El Rey series and more at Pescador on the fly dot com. 00:40:42 Dave: We’re excited because we’re going there this year, and then I think we’re going to also have Rick, which is going to be coming up here. Oh yeah. Yeah. So we’re going to have I kind of was thinking the same thing. I was like, man, it would be great to get Rick up there because you know, because yeah, it’s mostly a single hand. But I think, you know, there’s a lot of people obviously interested in the two hand stuff. So so that’s what we’re building. I’m going to get a taste of the I kind of love the single hand too. I think it’ll be fun to catch one. 00:41:05 Alex: Hopefully it. 00:41:05 Dave: Is great. 00:41:06 Alex: Yeah, it’s a good weapon. You know, I think it’s, um. Yeah. There’s it’s just another tool in the toolbox. And, um, the guides are comfortable with them too, so that’s helpful. I would definitely recommend taking one. I’m just stubborn and I just, you know, fish my two handles the whole time because that’s how I wanted to do it. But it would be wise to take a ten foot seven way, ten foot eight weight or something like that. 00:41:32 Dave: Good. Well, this is good. We’ll have to follow up with you more on after we get on these. 00:41:36 Alex: Oh man. 00:41:37 Dave: Yeah, I’ll let you know. And maybe we could trade notes, but um, but I was thinking to on fly, so I’m heading out and this is a good night. Sounds like you’re not tying quite as much as you used to, but would you occasionally get orders? People would be heading up to the OPP or some winter steelhead fishing on the coast and say, hey, you know, I need some flies. You know, Alex, what would you recommend? Is that would you do stuff like fill orders like that? 00:41:56 Alex: Yeah, definitely. That was kind of the main way that I did it. There was a season where I was tying quite a bit. And you know, would tie for a couple shops and then, you know, mainly it was just kind of word of mouth like that, like, hey man, we saw some of your flies. Yeah, we saw, um, you posting flies and we, you know, man, this one looks beautiful. You know, would you do me up a dozen or two or whatever? I got a trip to the OPP. Here’s some colors I like. Any recommendations you have? 00:42:29 Dave: Yeah. What would that be? So we’re heading we’re actually heading up this weekend to hit the OPP. What would be your recommendation if we had to say what are a few patterns? You know, I know there’s pretty standard stuff, but what would you say would be good to have in the maybe to mix it up a little bit? 00:42:41 Alex: Oh man, I guess it depends on the river system. You’re you’re at up there. I’ll be honest with you, Dave. I have personally not fished the OPP and I can’t really remember what was requested of me up there. So I don’t want to just regurgitate to you black and blue in this. 00:43:00 Dave: Right, right, right. Well, that’s the great thing about it, is that literally it could be, you know, black and blue or purple, you know? 00:43:06 Alex: Yeah. Pinks and oranges and. Yeah, I don’t know enough about the op. Dave. 00:43:12 Dave: So what about that monk or fly? Do you think that one would work up there? 00:43:15 Alex: Yes, absolutely. I would definitely take a couple of those with you. So and yeah, I like it. I mean, I would do one in some shrimpy colors, you know, some pinks. And I know that, you know, I’ve seen a lot of flies hanging out at op fishes mouths with pink in it, no doubt. Um, and I would definitely try that, uh, black copper. Kelly Green we’ve just had a lot of success with that, you know, unique color combo, even when conditions were really tough. And that’s where it seemed to really shine was when, you know, nothing else was working, you know what I mean? And I started tying it another way instead of the zonker, and I just called it the tsunami marker because I’ve seen, uh, tsunami flies from Scandinavia, which was a sun ray shadow with a muddler head. So what I did was instead of doing a zonker, I would just do kind of a nice little wing of Fox or something like that. So it almost was like a temple dog with a monk, her head. But what that did was made it even easier to cast and sync and present in the water and everything else like that. So yeah, I would do one kind of shrimpy and then I would definitely try that black copper. Kelly green color. 00:44:36 Dave: Okay. Kelly Green and what is the, um, we’ve talked about the temple dog before, but describe that again. What is the temple dog? How is that different than the other flies that are out there? 00:44:44 Alex: Yeah. So temple dog was, you know, like Hawk and Norling. Um, Michael Freeden um, in the mid eighties, they had been, you know, fishing some of the standard Scandi type plays, um, like Bucktail and stuff like that. And essentially it’s, you know, temple dogs on a tube and they’re predominantly three wings with a hackle in between. But it’s just the way you tie that, you know, fox hair in at the top where you get a nice teardrop type, um, pattern. But instead of having like, it’s not just like marabou all in the round or ostrich all in the round. It’s a very significant wing. And so it’s going to be slimmer than other flies in the water and still have a presence. And it definitely, you know, has a great bait fishy look to it as well. For whatever reason, you know, it is just worked on Atlantic salmon for years. I think every Scandinavian probably has a temple dog in their wallet now or something. Um, they just move and breathe. And I, and I think here, especially in North America, you know, since most people aren’t fishing that you know. So if you’re with a group of guys and you know you’re not the first one through the pool or whatever. You know, it’s nice to have something that’s just different swims different. 00:46:09 Dave: So yeah, it swims quite a bit differently than say, your typical intruder or whatever. 00:46:14 Alex: One hundred percent. Yeah. And I mean, you know, another great pattern is, uh, stews, pot belly pig. And I mean, he is, you know, that fly has proven itself on, um, you know, steelhead salmon here on the, you know, Pacific, uh, migratory fish. So, and it’s even slimmer and has less to it. So I think there’s something about switching up from what everybody else has and going a little sparser and lighter and, and they’re easy to cast too. I think that’s a big part of it. I think when guys switch from big, bulky flies that they struggle to cast, to flies that are easy to present, you know, that probably has a lot to do with it. Dave, to be honest. 00:46:58 Dave: Right? Are you more do you tie more on tubes or. Shanks. 00:47:02 Speaker 5: I guess tubes. 00:47:04 Alex: But I still do tie on shanks occasionally. And physchem. It’s kind of more of a mood thing I do. I’m kind of sold on tubes in general. Just their hook up rate, I think is really good because you’re, you know, essentially tied directly to the hook, right? That’s where all your there’s no leverage given up at all on a tube because I mean, your tippet is right to the eye of the hook. You’re actually fishing. So you set the hook, you’re pulling directly on a hook, you through the fight, you’re pulling directly on the hook where, where a shank with stinger wire. You know, there’s you’re not actually having a direct connection to the hook, right? You have the leverage of the stinger wire and then the pulling at the top of a shank. So I’ve had better success landing fish, like on tubes, like, um, you know, bras to hand. Let’s say I have gone back to Italian on single hooks, like spay hooks and stuff quite a bit too, just for just for fun, you know? 00:48:07 Dave: Right. Traditional. 00:48:08 Alex: Yeah. Yeah, that’s kind of been a thing for me the last, uh, year just to switch it up and, you know, cast a spay line where I have the space and time to do it and a lady. Caroline. So, but if I was on a trip and I really wanted to land and catch fish, I definitely would probably have a majority of an assortment of, uh, tubes, um, save for the Portland Creek, you know, trip there. So you would definitely want a lot on hooks. 00:48:37 Dave: Oh, you would. You don’t want a lot of tubes for Portland Creek. 00:48:40 Alex: Uh, no, I mean, you’re not going to fish anything big like a couple, like really small. 00:48:45 Dave: Oh, right. 00:48:45 Alex: Um, you could do like the, the rifled tube, like, um, hair rings where you literally just put like a tiny clump of black squirrel, right? 00:48:57 Dave: Like just a little bit on the tube and. 00:48:59 Alex: Just lasso that down and call that good. Burn the needle through the side of the tube or come underneath. 00:49:06 Dave: Yep. That is the thing with the tube because it is a little bit of depending on the size of the tube, it’s a little bit bigger profile, right? Like I think of it is the size we use for summer steelhead, which is I think there’s some good comparison between Atlantic salmon is that there’s about as sparse as you can make them, you know, and they’re these little and it’s a tiny little slim noodle in the water and it pulses a little bit, but it’s a harrowing just like we just had John Shuey on recently. And we talked about the old traditional herrings. They’ve kind of gone away a little bit, right, because the intruders have taken over, but they’re still super effective. A little sparks fly. 00:49:36 Alex: Absolutely. Yeah. And I don’t know, they’re just I did not fish many tubes up on Portland Creek because, you know, unless you really want one to just stay up on top like that, you know what I mean? If you really want one kind of skating. I’m not saying they can’t be done, but I just. I felt like tying on the hooks and just, you know, simple little hair wings and stuff like that. I don’t know, it was just more enjoyable. I thought they were easier to fish. Uh, you could get some depth if you wanted to, depending on the weight of the hook, you know, if you mended it, if that was, um, the thing, it was just. Yeah, I just mainly fish hooks there. I really wish doubles were legal. Um, right in Newfoundland. I’m not sure why they’re they’re not. 00:50:26 Dave: You mean two a hook with two. Uh oh yeah. Yeah. 00:50:29 Alex: That’s I, I fish that quite a bit on the way back to Atlantic salmon real quick. So the Saint Mary’s, which is kind of my home water, they’ve been stocking Atlantic salmon there since, uh, the eighties. And so we have a pretty robust population of Atlantics that swim into that river system. and the Isabel. And, um, I guess technically they’re a landlocked strain because they’re in the the Great Lakes and stuff like that, but they swim in pretty big. And I mean, there’s, we, we don’t get like massive size Atlantic salmon, but you can get like twenty pounders and stuff like that, which they’re all chrome silvad out, you know, and everything else. So and I’ll fish on that river system. It’s really clear water. So you don’t need anything big, but I’ll fish on doubles quite a bit. And I, you know, the beauty of that is you can have a small size ten double and but it has the, you know, it’s strong enough to hold a big fish too. So it really doesn’t. I know a lot of people kind of shy away from doubles and they see doubles and they think of like herding fish or whatever. That’s not been my experience. They’re definitely not trebles, Dave and the other. No. And the other thing is too. I mean, you can get them barbless. Uh, Atlantics have soft mouths too, compared to steelhead or Chinook. And so the doubles actually penetrate, you know better on Atlantics than they would steelhead. That’s another thing to think about. Generally, a double if you were fishing for steelhead isn’t going to penetrate as deeply versus like a single point, you know what I mean? Um, because you have two points of contact and so it’s harder to bury it a little bit deeper where it goes in a little easier. But all that to say, I mean, if you do it correctly, I can use really small hooks. And if I hook into a fifteen or twenty pound fish, you know, I have the strength to actually land the fish. And I, I love like a, just a small hair wing or sparse cascade, which is a hair ring on like a size ten double for a latex. Yeah. It’s awesome. You just cast it out there. It’s got a little bit more weight than a single hook. So you can get under the water column a little bit easier and it just rides upright and true. And yeah, it seems like every, um, Atlantic I’ve hooked with a double, you know, I end up bringing it to hand pretty quick. 00:53:13 Dave: You do. So there you go. So, so I didn’t realize it. So it’s a good and that’s part of it. Fishing the fly. Like if you’re using one of these temple dogs, you would want to keep that fly, right? Kind of in the position. Is that is that part of the thing, keeping it how you want to fish it with the double hook? 00:53:26 Alex: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, yep. So if you were I do have I haven’t used them a lot. I mean, I’m probably going to get in trouble for saying this. I wanted to do a little bit more experimenting with the double hooks and steelhead on the Great Lakes. Um, mainly because they’re not wild fish. And if you were to accidentally kill one, you know, you could harvest and eat it. And then I wouldn’t use it again because I’m mainly catch and release. I don’t know if I’ve ever kept a steelhead, to be honest. Oh, really? Here. I mean, we could and I like the taste of, um, trout and everything else. I’ve heard people say, oh, steelhead aren’t good to eat. Anyway, I beg to differ. 00:54:10 Dave: Oh, steelhead are great. 00:54:11 Alex: I think they are. Yeah. For sure. 00:54:13 Dave: Um, well, the hook is interesting because I think that, um, like you said, the trouble I think people, when they hear the double hook, they instantly, if they’ve never used one, they think treble. And if you’ve used a treble hook, which I have not recently, but I have and think about treble hook is that it’ll get caught up like three times in their mouth or, you know, and then it’s like you’re ripping that thing out. And if it’s Barb, it’s toast, right? But what you’re saying is a double hook. Barbless double hook is not any harsher than just a single hook. 00:54:39 Alex: I don’t think so. I mean, you could make the case. I mean, if you think about. And what I’m saying is you can use one much smaller two and get the strength. I mean, if you look at like a size two steelhead hook, right? Or even some of the traditional flies. I’m not knocking guys who fish traditional flies. I mean, in my mind, if you compare that to like a size ten or size eight double, I mean a single hook if it goes into the wrong spot, is going to penetrate a lot deeper. It’s just naturally pulling on it. You know, it has the potential to hook all the way through where it’s harder to pull two points, um, through and some, and I’ll be honest, some, a lot of the Scandinavians have actually switched to single hooks because of that. They can penetrate them deeper and are actually getting more fish to hand. So I think there’s a misnomer about doubles in general. And like you said, I think people see it and they immediately think troubles and killing fish. I do want to say I haven’t used them long enough to know one way or another, but in my time, fishing with doubles. Yeah. Uh, and I, you know, I’m very careful about it and make sure it’s legal. I’ve only ever done it on the Great Lakes. It’s certainly not going to come out west and, and, or anything. And I couldn’t even use them in Newfoundland, and I wanted to. And you would think there’s Atlantic salmon. You can even keep some, uh, but it’s not legal. So we didn’t do it, you know, but in my experience, I mean, I get away with a nice small herring, you know, like they’re beautiful pinch of black squirrel touch a flash right at the head. That’s it. Right. Be an awesome summer steelhead fly. And, uh, you could use size twelve doubles, even. And, um, I doubt they’re coming loose. I doubt they’re going to bend it. And. Yeah, I have not seen him do any damage. Like in the way that you would think. I you know, I guess if they swallowed it. 00:56:50 Dave: Right. But they swallow anything, it’s they’re going to be toast. 00:56:53 Alex: If you swallow, you know, a size two stinger hook. I think you have a lot of trouble too. So yeah. 00:57:01 Dave: Were you on your you mentioned Saint Mary’s Rapids. So are Atlantic salmon and steelhead in that section? 00:57:06 Alex: Yeah. So in the Saint Mary’s, what runs that river right now are, uh, you know, we get the steelhead. There’s a population of resident rainbow trout. Uh, there’s some Kamloops rainbow trout in there. Uh, lantic salmon. Um, come in. The pink salmon. Come in some coho. Come in. The kings come in. Wow. We get sturgeon that come in. 00:57:32 Dave: This is what’s cool about the Great Lakes. Yeah, because you could travel all around the world and target certain areas of these species. But in the Great Lakes. Yeah. Where else can you get? Atlantic salmon, steelhead, Chinook, salmon, all these species. Right? Right. The only place. 00:57:46 Alex: It is cool, man. Right. That’s I mean, that’s one of the things about the Great Lakes. Like I’m, I, I am happy to live here. And I think like, you know. Yeah. Would it be nice to, you know, have a home right somewhere on the Skeena or you know what I mean? Like, yeah, that that’d be fantastic. And, or some of the rivers in Alaska, which are amazing, you know. 00:58:10 Dave: But, but you wouldn’t be able to catch Atlantic salmon out there. 00:58:13 Alex: No, no, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t. So there’s, I it, it is neat. I mean, I if you are into, you know, if you’re a sportsman or whatever, and fishing, especially fly fishing, the Great Lakes isn’t too bad. Right? Because um, I mean, we, we get like, uh, kind of a, they call them coaster brook trout. They’re migratory, like our steelhead are migratory here. So, and they get pretty good size. Um, I think the largest one that, that was on the Nipigon River. 00:58:44 Dave: Yeah. The Nipigon, we’ve heard about that. 00:58:46 Alex: Sixteen pounds. Yeah. Brook trout. 00:58:48 Dave: Did you guys fish any? Uh, because that’s something we’re talking at Mountain waters fishing for Brooks because we got some people that. 00:58:54 Alex: Oh, I think that’d be awesome. On a trout Spey. They get migratory brook trout. 00:58:58 Dave: They’re like a what, like a four or six or three. Yeah. 00:59:02 Alex: Three. Four maybe. Yeah. Three. 00:59:03 Dave: Four. Right. 00:59:04 Alex: Yeah, I don’t know. I guess it depends how big their migratory brook trout get. 00:59:09 Dave: So I think they’re saying I think they get them in the, you know, they can get up to like four or five pounds or somewhere in that range, maybe bigger, but I think five pounds is pretty typical. 00:59:17 Alex: I think you’d be fine with a four weight all around. So that’s probably what I would take. Um, yeah, so I mean, I’ve seen carp swim up the Saint Mary’s. This is just one river too, right? And, um, whitefish I’ve seen swim up the Saint Mary’s, you know, and then further down in the Saint Mary’s system are muskie and Walleye and all kinds of stuff. That’s just one river, you know? So and that’s kind of how the Great Lakes is in general, right? Like there’s a river fifteen minutes from my house and that’s one that I, you know, fish quite a bit. It’s a little bit smaller, not as many crowds, not as big of runs and stuff like that. But on that river, I mean, there’s rainbow trout, brook trout, brown trout, uh, there’s pinks that’ll come in coho, steelhead, king salmon. I’ve caught smallmouth bass, you know, in it before. I’ve seen sturgeon in it, you know, and that’s just the nature of that, you know, being on the Great Lakes, the stocking program, stuff like that. 01:00:20 Dave: So no, it sounds amazing. I can’t wait to get back there for sure and get up in that area. But let’s take it out here. We talked. Let’s talk a little history. I love a little history lesson before we get out of here. Well, first off, before we get there, anything else you want to highlight on on what you have going with any, you know, flies or any notes there? 01:00:35 Alex: Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Dave. Yeah. For sure. So I am just, you know, um, slowly but surely kind of stepping out of doing any kind of fly tying orders all together. I just don’t have the time anymore with with with the kids. No, I mean, Sam and I, you know, so I have a wife, four kids. Um, my oldest is in high school, and so we’re just, we’re busy with that. Yeah. Um, and the fly time and we have, uh, our own business, which is year round. And it just, you know, it took a lot of time away in the evenings away. I mean, I’m thankful for it and everything. Um, so my goal, I kind of bought a little shed, you know, one of those sheds to go outside. An Amish built one. And I’m going to set up all my fly tying stuff out there. And I really hope to just do more like fly tying videos and educational stuff, just because I enjoy it. I like playing with material. I like, you know, building flies and stuff like that. And I just like staying a part of the community and chatting with people. So whether, whether people like that or not, whatever, that’s my plan to move in that direction. And then in my free time, I mean, to be honest with you, uh, spend more time with, um, family and stuff like that because, well, the realization that I only have our oldest daughter, Margot, I mean, she’s a freshman now, so I’m like, oh, you know, what do we have three years? Four years maybe. And, uh, depending. Yeah. So I can’t be, you know. 01:02:12 Dave: You can’t be everywhere. That’s one thing you can’t be is. 01:02:15 Alex: I don’t want to be sitting there trying to fill orders all night. 01:02:18 Dave: So. And you got to focus on family for sure first. So. Well, so where would somebody go if they wanted to get some of these mucker flies? Where could they, uh, you know, could they buy them from somebody else? 01:02:27 Alex: Yeah, actually, they certainly could. There’s a guy in Wisconsin, um, and he actually sent me a care package of some flies. And I’ll be honest with you, I had done like a tsunami monker, which was kind of a different take on it. And he sent me some and I think they were better than mine, to be honest with you. And that’s Mitch’s fly bench. He’s in Wisconsin and people know Mitch in the community. But if you look up Mitch’s fly bench on Instagram and stuff like that, he’s one of the best I’ve seen at tying them. And if I ever needed some and couldn’t tie him myself, I personally would trust him to tie him to specs. 01:03:13 Dave: So yeah, yeah, I see it. Mitch at Mitch Mitch’s fly bench right there. 01:03:17 Alex: He is a great guy. He’s a phenomenal fly tyer. Um, yeah. And when he sent me a box of stuff and a couple patterns, I quote unquote my patterns. I want to be careful because everything I’ve tied is just a culmination of ideas. 01:03:33 Dave: That. 01:03:34 Alex: People have done, you know? So anyway, he sent me that and I texted him back. Actually, I went out and caught a steelhead on one of his flies. Nice. Yeah. And I don’t, you know, it’s weird. Fly tyers don’t like tie fishing. Other people’s flies all that much, you know? And I’m like, man, I can’t believe it, Mitch. Yours are better than mine. So anyway. 01:03:55 Dave: Yeah. Perfect. Well, we got we got a great resource there. Well, tell me this. You mentioned when we got started off here, the history. I would love to hear again. The the city that you live in there. It’s one of the oldest in the country. Take us back there. Remind us again. What is the history? 01:04:08 Alex: Yeah, yeah. So it’s just a really interesting little, um, point of fact, I guess. So I live in Saint Ignace, Michigan, and then north of me, forty five minutes to Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, right across the border, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. So, uh, Saint Ignace, where I live, is the third oldest continually Operating established city in the United States. Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, would be the second. And those were in the sixteen hundreds, I think. Saint Ignace was like sixteen seventy one or somewhere around there. And that was all established by the French in this area. Yep. They came over from. Well, obviously they hit the coast Newfoundland somewhere over there and then through Quebec and Montreal and um, you know, a lot of fur trading and everything. And then, uh, the Jesuits, you know, set up churches and stuff and, uh, in the area and all that kind of stuff. So it was very much a French and Native American, like people, um, when they think about American history, they don’t realize the French and the Indians actually got along pretty well. 01:05:20 Dave: Oh, they did right. 01:05:21 Alex: It was the British that um, the French and natives had been living together. Oh for a while. Right. So everybody in this area. If your family goes back far enough. We all have a certain amount of French and Native American in us. Yeah, you know, that’s how that all worked out. So yeah, it’s kind of a just a little piece of history right there. So it is a very old area. And that, you know, that goes back to my last name has been anglicized, but it’s, um, the, what it is, is Belanger, which is a very common French-Canadian name and you still see it all over and it’s spelled B e l a n g e r. That’s who we are. Ours just got changed. And, you know, now it kind of looks like Bologna and that’s what it is. 01:06:10 Dave: So Bologna, right, right, right. Bologna. 01:06:12 Alex: Everyone’s like, are you Italian? And I, you know, Dave, I just I’m not gonna lie. Sometimes I’ve been like, yep. Because I don’t want to go through this too much of. 01:06:21 Dave: Uh, too much. Yeah, yeah. We’re all, we’re all kind of like you said, we’re all a melting pot. So it’s. 01:06:24 Alex: Oh, man. 01:06:25 Dave: Yeah, it makes sense. 01:06:25 Alex: I don’t know what I have in me anymore. So yeah. 01:06:28 Dave: If you go back to sixteen seventy one that time. Um, what species were in going through that? Or maybe there wasn’t even a canal, but what species were in the Great Lakes? 01:06:38 Alex: Oh, that’s a great question. So no, there was no, uh, lock system there. So it was a real treacherous waterway, um, that the natives did, uh, fish. Um, but it was extremely dangerous. And that whole rapid system probably went for several miles, I would assume, because there’s a thirty plus foot difference right there between Huron and Superior. Right? So might even had almost a waterfall ish. Look, I think what we had in the Great Lakes at that time there was sturgeon for sure. 01:07:12 Dave: Yeah. I’m looking at a list now. I see the there’s over thirty native species in, you know, Lake Superior, Lake trout, Lake, Whitefish, Lake trout, Lake whitefish. 01:07:21 Alex: Maybe like Menominee, Cisco, which are kind of offshoots of the whitefish. But no, there was no salmon or steelhead or like rainbow trout, stuff like that. Those were all introduced here. 01:07:33 Dave: Yeah, but there were lake trout. Right. But you had lake trout. Yeah. Do you still find lake trout out there? 01:07:38 Alex: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Actually, a funny thing. I forgot to add that to the species list that you can fish on the Great Lakes. So if I want to, um, it’s more prolific in Wisconsin for some reason, and I’m not sure why that is. But again, where I’m at, I’m about four hours from green Bay. So and it’s a real beautiful drive and that’s really not that far if you think about traveling to fish, you know? So I talked to guys out west, you know what I mean? If there’s a river within three hours, they almost call that a home river, right? 01:08:08 Dave: Yeah. Right. Exactly. 01:08:10 Speaker 6: We just have. 01:08:11 Alex: So many here. So what else we get is, um, so we have lake trout out in the, the Great Lakes, and there’s a couple of species of them are varieties that I can’t think of the word I’m. Um, but then. And then we also have lake run brown trout, which are a sea trout. Right. That’s what brown trout are. And they’re related to Atlantic salmon. So we have a three strains of that. I know at least two. We have the Sea Farallon. There’s another one called rosy Red and some other. I don’t know what it is. See, I’m bad about these names, but. 01:08:49 Dave: But. 01:08:49 Alex: But when they run into the rivers, when you first catch them, they’re all silvad out, and they look like an Atlantic salmon, kind of. You gotta. You can tell by their face and the spotting. But you can get pretty large size Lake run browns, we call them, but they’re sea farallons, you know. And, um, and it’s funny because the first time I caught a salmon in the fall up here, I thought I caught a brown trout because they turn and get that brown trout coloration, right? So yeah, so that’s another species like people. And I know people head down to Argentina for the sea run trout, which I’m sure that’s amazing. Um, but you can catch them here in the Great Lakes, too. 01:09:30 Dave: Yeah, we’re definitely gonna have to get back out there soon. So. So this has been good, Alex. I think we’ll leave it there for today. We’ll send everybody out to, uh, at Straits on the fly and, uh, they can follow up with you there on Instagram. And yeah, this has been great. 01:09:42 Alex: Oh, man. Dave, thanks for what you do. And, uh, you got one of the best podcasts out there. I love listening to it. And if you, uh, are ever coming around this area or whatever, um, hit me up, man, we could trip out of it. There’s a lot, uh, to do here, so we’ll do. 01:09:58 Dave: Thanks again. We’ll talk to you soon. 01:10:00 Speaker 6: All right. See you. Dave. 01:10:02 Dave: If you get a chance, check in with Alex at straights on the fly on Instagram, checking in with him, let him know you heard this podcast. Uh, if you’re interested in checking in more with me on any of our trips, you can check in. Send me an email Dave at webplace dot com. We just announced the On Dry Fly school. This giveaway is going on right now. If you want a chance to win, you can go to wet fly swing dot com slash giveaway. And if you want to save a spot for the big mo, the Missouri River this year, we’ve got limited spots available. You can send me an email there anytime and I’ll let you know. We’ll also have a link in the show notes where you can sign up to get your name on that list. And, and we’re heading out. We’ve got more of the same goodness to come. If you have any questions, as always, check in with me if you haven’t yet, uh, check in with me if you’re new to the podcast or haven’t said hi in a while, just send me an email, uh, to the one I mentioned before and I’m getting out of here. Hope you have a great afternoon. Great evening or morning. And, uh, thanks again for stopping in today and we’ll talk to you soon. 01:10:59 Speaker 7: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit Wet Fly dot com.
Conclusion with Alex Belonga on Fishing Smaller Flies for Great Lakes Steelhead
This one flips the script on what most anglers think they know about fly size and presentation. If you’ve been stuck going bigger, this might be the shift that changes everything.
