George (2s): I mean, I will tell if I tell one guy this, I’ll tell 50 guys this. At the clave there are no bad spay rods. There’s only spay rods who haven’t found the right bullet to shoot out of it yet. And so the lines really, we can save anybody’s spay rod from a, a life in a dusty garage if we can simply examine the rod and select a line that we feel that that caster can now fly the plane, as I like to say. Brian (41s): Welcome to In the Bucket, the podcast that explores the culture of spay fishing in the Pacific Northwest. A spectacular land of mountains and wild rivers where every cast has a story to tell. I’m your host Brian Ska. In today’s show, I’m gonna be speaking with Mia Shepherd, Josh Lin and George Cook. This is an all star cast with considerable influence in the fly fishing industry and together they have contributed greatly to the way we fish today. Their combined experience includes many years of guiding fly shop, sales tackle, repping technique and equipment development, casting instruction, event promotion, and winning three spay RAM titles. Today I want to talk about the upcoming Sandy River Spay, clave taking place in mid-May. Brian (1m 22s): Let’s get into it. Right on folks. Thanks for joining us today. I’m super excited to have a conversation with Mia Shepherd, Josh Lynn, and George Cook. Mia, why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? 3 (1m 37s): Hi Brian. Thanks for having me on the show. It’s good to be here and this is gonna be a fun conversation with Josh and George and you and everybody. So anyway, my husband, Marty and I, we own a small company called Little Creek Outfitters in Oregon and we have been guiding on some of Oregon’s rivers since 2003. The Deschutes, the John Day, the Grand R and the Sandy River for Steelhead Trout and small mouth bass and yeah, that’s about it. Josh (2m 10s): Hey, I’m Josh. Thanks for having me on the show. This is gonna be awesome. I started spay casting around 2000 and have known Marty and Mia since, well, before that I work at Royal Treatment Fly Shop in Westland, Oregon. Before that I worked for G Loomis and the Welchs Fly Shop. Now I guide and travel and fish and Thai flies as much as possible. And that’s kind of my story right there. George (2m 35s): Hi, George Cook here. Brian, thanks for having me on with this fabulous trio. I’m the 35 year sage rep in the Pacific Northwest and been at it a long time with a lot of brands. Sage being, you know, one of the headliners along with Rio and some stuff on the hunt side. Prior to that I worked for Randall Kaufman, which was my, my early education into the, this business. And prior to that I guided in Bristol Bay, Alaska. And the other folks on the show here, I’ve, I’ve known for years, so this ought to be quite a go at it. Let’s go Brian (3m 15s): Right on, George. Yeah, I think it’s impossible to overstate the influence that Sage has had on spay casting in the Pacific Northwest. I know certainly the first spay rods that, that I got my hands on were the old Brown series that Peter Morrison very graciously lent to me. I’ve told the story before, but I, I took that 15 footer, the 10 weight that the three piece, which is an absolute canon up to the Thompson, walked into the graveyard and I had the wrong line on it. It was a, an old double taper that was way too light. And I thought, man, this, this space casting’s harder than it looks, but you know, I persevered and you know, the gear made it easier. Certainly George, in your 35 years of doing this, we’ve seen some tremendous improvements in equipment that have broken down a lot of the barriers to participation for folks, haven’t we? George (3m 60s): Well, no question be it Rods particularly lines various formats of lines that lend themselves to the winter game, to the summer game. The lines have probably had as big influence on things is anything that 15 foot 10 weight that you kicked it off with was similar to a 14 foot nine weight that I started with. And today I rarely use those big rods. Things have, they’ve come down to where the average stick nowadays is more like 12 and a half, 13 feet and the lines were always the complication, right. I’ll tell this story really quick, but it’s the first time I ever had a spay rod in my hand. George (4m 42s): The Hardy rep had come into Bellevue Kaufman’s And we had never seen hide a hair this guy before. And he came in and he chatted us up and he said, Hey, I got a spay rod if anybody wants to use it. And I was like, yeah, I will. And he didn’t say shit all stupid about lines. And so this was 1985 and so I put the line on it that any steel header of that age would do. I put a good old tini, teeny 300 line on it and I, I proceeded to go out to the Skykomish River the next day and I’d say after about no, maybe 12 minutes, I was dying for my 8 96 RP with the same line on it. George (5m 27s): And I didn’t pick up a spay rod again until 1990 because it was such a horrible experience. But it really comes down to lines and lines have gotten incredibly better and more useful and, And we owe a lot to the pioneers in that theater. Yeah, Brian (5m 45s): And you know, I think that, you know, we’re gonna talk a bit about the, the upcoming sandy clave ’cause that’s something I’m really excited to learn more about. But I think that if you’re in the business of selling spay rods, you have to be in the business of teaching casting and you have to be in the business of matching lines, reel’s gotta hold the line and hopefully it’s shiny and makes a nice noise if that’s your thing. But, but getting that line rod match is everything, isn’t it? George (6m 7s): A hundred percent. Without it, it can become a real exercise in frustration. Josh (6m 13s): Well, you know, being at the shop selling a lot of spay rods and that kind of stuff and seeing, guiding and seeing the consumer using spay rods and the most random mixed matched stuff that they put on there. You know, a lot of times I’m like, you spent money on this rod, you got some random line off eBay that doesn’t even match with this. It’s just as a recipe for disaster. And If you don’t want a steakhouse, go that route. But If you want to actually learn how to steakhouse the move is to go to a professional and talk to ’em, whether it’s a guide or a shop or whatever and get help with that being matched up. I mean, it’s so easy nowadays. 3 (6m 49s): Yeah, I just wanna say as a, as a guide, the number of people that come out and I’m teaching ’em how to spay cast and they’ll show up with a line and a rod and they’ll have a poly leader on a skagit line and just not knowing how all the equipment works together and they’re wondering like why they are having trouble spay casting. It’s like, okay, just a couple easy fixes here, let’s, or let’s try this, you know, four 80 on this 71 30 or let’s try just a different line. A lot of people come out on the river with heavier lines for the rod and all you gotta do is, you know, just change it and put something different on and it makes a big difference. Brian (7m 36s): And I think, you know, clave type events, you know, the ability to cast a bunch of different tackle, the ability to talk to people who know what they’re doing and to do it, you know, one after another, you know, that’s so tremendously valuable when it comes to setting yourself up for success. Josh, I know from talking to you earlier that, that you were involved in the Sandy Spay clave in its early days, weren’t you? Can you tell our listeners a little bit about how the event got its start? Josh (8m 1s): Well, I certainly was, and I don’t remember the exact minute that it happened, but I know that back in that time 2000, you know, there wasn’t a lot of easy access to information about spa casting. YouTube wasn’t really a thing. There were some message boards and If you look back at the old spa pages message board, it was basically just all text. And there was a bunch of guys and spearheaded by this one guy Fred Evans, who was trying to put together a group of guys to go meet at Oxbow Park. They didn’t have any shop affiliation, it was just a, hey, a bunch of guys want to get together, try different spay. Josh (8m 41s): Robs casting was getting really popular. This was like in September, October of 2000, something like that. They got with Mark Bachman asked him if he wanted to basically host it and provide all the fly rods. Mark is, you know, shop owner and he is like, I can try to do that, but I don’t know, you know what I can do. But I’ll see. And I think a few months later he basically was like, yeah, I’m, I’m all in. Let’s try to make this happen. And he called a couple of reps, I believe George was one of them and kind of got that first spade clave together in May of 2001. And it was basically a snowballed after that. 3 (9m 18s): Yeah, it’s been such a great event. I think the first one I attended was probably in 2003. And then from there on it was, you know, every other one. And our daughter Tegan, who is now 17, she was, she attended her first spay clave when she was born in, you know, 2007. And she would just run around each year and, and cast rods and make people laugh. And I found out that she would steal licorice from the BAH booth and they called her the licorice monster. But it’s such a community event that, I mean I felt safe having my three-year-old run around and talk to all these people. 3 (9m 58s): And it’s just been such a great, great event for many years. And I’ve met so many wonderful people. George (10m 5s): My first time Josh Mark got ahold of me about that one in 2000 and I think we sent him some rods ’cause 2001, 2002, both those dates, I was in Namibia in Africa hunting right when that went on. And when I came back from that 2002 hunt, Bachman basically scolded me and he said, you will not miss this. And 2003 was my first year Mia. And of course it ran all the way through 2019 and Covid kill shot at 20. And so, you know, here we sit. But you know, I always, I always told people anywhere I went about the cla is that it was literally a big, it was a major league baseball hitting clinic for the public. George (10m 56s): And you had all the greatest hitters there. I mean names that are ultra well known, some are sitting here, others are, you know, in, in the United Kingdom. Others are, you know, down the street so to speak. And the public had access to these folks for free, you know, and you don’t see that in the tennis of the golf world, you’re gonna sign up for some pretty expensive lessons. And so the spa clave was really a joyous community event that the public was the single biggest winner and all of us, you know, supporting it with tackle and all this, it’s just, it’s one of the great things in, in the community of fly fishing in the United States. George (11m 40s): And I used to refer to it as the Woodstock of spay because it just was this gathering that there was nothing like it. Brian (11m 47s): So George, let’s talk a little bit about participation. How many people would you see at the event in its heyday? George (11m 54s): I think the peak, now Josh will know this as well or better than I, but I believe 2011, 12 and 13 were the three biggest years. And I think there was one year in that three where the aggregate was around 1100 people. And I think that last year in 2019 it was probably more like 450 people. But the way we always judge these events, regardless of, you know, which, you know, clave or spay event, we judge it number one by the number of bodies, but number two, by the percentage of people that attend that are willing to go cast. And the spa clave always had a really high percentage, like I would say 70% of the people there would cast. George (12m 42s): And then of that 70%, I’d say 90% of ’em would cast three to six rods in a given day. So when we look and view that, we viewed that as the number one spay event in the United States. Not just based on numbers but of honest participation and willing participation and then all the help that everybody would provide these folks, you know, worked in conjunction with that and it just fantastic event and all events before, since are still judged upon that one. Brian (13m 16s): So Josh, you know, you being involved in the early days of this and not knowing, you know, how big of a, of a thing it was gonna become, at what point did you and Mark recognize that you had something really important on hand? Josh (13m 31s): I think that basically right after that, you know, maybe second year, like when George is talking about Mark scolded him, it was kind of like, yeah, this thing is moving fast and you know, we would provide lunches each day. So we had a pretty good headcount of how many participants, you know, we served 400 lunches, we served 500 lunches in the day and in those first, you know, five, 2000 5, 6, 7, something like that, you know, I think we were serving around 1200 lunches in those two days and it was like, oh this is out of control. You know, you don’t kind of expect that it’s gonna be that big. Josh (14m 11s): And so IME at that point for sure, by 2006 it was known that this was the only thing like it and it was, you know, moving, you know, for us what we compared it to, and it’s not a fair comparison, but would be like the CLA game fair. That’s what we were kind of imagining, which is a huge event in the uk and you know, we’re trying to think of how we can get more participation, what we can do for people, how we can add other things to it. And you know, we had big dreams and it, it worked out well. I mean we had people coming, like George said, from all over the uk, you know, presenters from the UK all over, you know, Denmark, you know, know anywhere in Europe all over the US I mean we had a big list of presenters that was really great. Josh (14m 58s): And then we would have consumers coming from not very many from Europe, some from Europe, but a lot of consumers from all over the US Canada. I mean, it was a really great event and hopefully this will seems like there’s a lot of interest and is kind of sparking that back up right now. Brian (15m 15s): So Mia, let’s talk about this year’s event. My understanding is you’re the, the driving force behind making it happen. I’d love for you to tell anyone listening if they come to the event, what they can expect and also, you know, perhaps talk about your experience in previous years and, and how the events evolved in time. 3 (15m 34s): Yeah, thanks Brian. You know, one of the reasons I wanted to bring this back is I just really miss the comradery. I really missed just seeing people, especially since CODI live in mopping and I just sometimes feel like I’m in this little silo over here and, and I just miss, you know, seeing people. And so, you know, that’s one of the driving forces to bring this back. Also spa casting, I I just guiding on the Deschutes, even though the steel had numbers have been low the last few years. I see a lot of younger people getting into the sport in their twenties and thirties and I just think that there’s this whole contingent of new people that have a lot of newer energy to bring into this and create some value. 3 (16m 20s): You know, I think the recreational fishing industry, it’s sometimes overlooked on how important we are to the economy to, you know, to conservation, to just the resource. And so really getting new anglers stoked on fishing and getting new anglers stoked on spay casting, which is what I love to do, I think will really create a lot of long-term benefits for the resource. And, and so in terms of what to expect, wow, well I think I might, I have a feeling I might need to prepare for more buying more food. 3 (17m 1s): So I am getting a little bit, not a little bit nervous, but in a good way. ’cause there’s been so much excitement. I know people now from Idaho, Montana, Washington, maybe California, of course Oregon that are all gonna be here and Canada. And so I know that Oxbow Park camping is booking up pretty fast. So what to expect Friday there’s gonna be a class that’s focused more on beginners from eight 30 to 11 and that’s gonna be taught by professionals in the industry. So like Josh will be there, George is gonna sign up and, and so these 50 people are gonna have the opportunity to take a class from some of the best casters and teachers in the United States. 3 (17m 51s): And so there’s that, and then there’s gonna be on water presentations from guides and outfitters and industry professionals. And then there’s gonna be also, I’m calling it a guide Olympic, but I just wanna have a fun event for anybody that really, it isn’t just for guides, it’s open to anybody after the presentations and event where, you know, just come on down and let’s do some casting or you know, maybe have a little event of setting up a a cot and see who can do it the fastest and just have some fun down on the beach. And, and then Saturday we have a whole slew of presentations lined up and so George is gonna be doing a presentation, Josh, there’s gonna be deck Hogan, Scott O’Donnell and Marty Shepherd, my husband and a whole slew of other great industry guides and, and people. 3 (18m 47s): And there’s also gonna be a fly tying, a fly tying or a space for fly tires. And we got some great people lined up that are going to demonstrate how to tie classical flies or winter steelhead flies. So it’s gonna, there’s gonna be so much people are gonna be able to try rods and reels and lines. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s gonna be, there’s gonna be a wealth of information there. It’s gonna be really cool. George (19m 16s): And Brian, you know, one of the great things in the clave is like Mia was talking about early on, you know, with clients is, you know, we’ll set up X amount of rods. I think the most we ever set up with reels and lines was 117 and I used to tease Eric Neufeld, the the Winston Echo rep. I’d say, Eric, I lose more than you bring. But people can try stuff, but what they can really do is they can bring their own tackle and if they’ve got a question about a line for this rod that they’ve had for eons or this rod they could never quite get dialed in, boy there’s never a better time and place than to come chat at that event because we’ll get ’em, we’ll get ’em sorted out on that line for that rod and, and ideas that’ll put make their days on the water much more enjoyable. George (20m 11s): And there’s times when I can hardly get away from just talking about lines with guys because it’s what makes the engines of these rods run are the right lines. So I look forward to that. Always 5 (20m 28s): Don’t let the chill keep you from your next big fish. Heated cores next to skin heated base layer is your secret weapon for staying warm and comfortable during those early morning fishing trips or late seasoned adventures engineered with advanced heating technology. This base layer keeps you toasty all day long, ensuring you can focus on what really matters. Gear up with the heated core base layer and make every cast count this season since 19 72, 4 wheel campers has been building rugged, lightweight campers designed to fit almost any truck and every kind of adventure. Whether you’re keeping it simple like me with the Project M or gearing up for full-time off the grid travel, there’s a four wheel camper built to match your lifestyle. You can head over to four wheel campers.com right now to use the builder tool to find your perfect topper slide in or flatbed camper for your next journey. Brian (21m 19s): So Mia, can you tell anyone listening who wants to come check it out, what are the dates for the event and how do they find you? 3 (21m 26s): Yeah, the dates for the Sandy River Bayla is May 9th and 10th and that’s a Friday, Saturday and at Oxbow Park in Gresham, Oregon and Gresham is about 40 minutes, 45 minutes from the Portland or airport. And so the best way to find out more information is to go over to swing the fly.com. I think it’s just a, it’s a landing page on their website that lists all the information. It’s gonna continually be updated with the names of vendors and more information on the presentations and presenters and everything that you need to know. 3 (22m 7s): So, and then, or you can also email me at sandy spay clave@gmail.com. There’s also an Instagram page, so it’s Sandy River spay Clave is the Instagram page Brian (22m 23s): And there’s, there’s camping on site for folks too, right? 3 (22m 26s): Yeah, there is camping there. I’m not sure how many sites, but last I checked maybe all the RV sites were already taken and there’s still a, a lot of campsites that are available. So, and I think that’s camping there is $25 a night and they also, you can even purchase wood, which is nice If you wanna have a fire. Brian (22m 48s): I think, you know, George, you’ve done a heck of a lot of sporting good shows over the years, I imagine trade shows and you know, to me the clave is really community building, you know, because, you know, not just the, the demonstrations, the instruction, but the ability to socialize with, with these people after hours. George, in your experience, do you find that, you know, am I right in this? Are, are cls a better opportunity to connect with fellow anglers than a actual trade show? George (23m 13s): A hundred percent. You know, for two to three days that these things traditionally have been it’s old home week, right? Typically would be the one time I would see Marty and Mia throughout the year. But we, consumers will show up from all parts. I mean I anticipate people from Idaho, from Texas, possibly New Jersey and it’s a reconnection, it’s a reboot of the highest order and you always learn something, you know, somebody will say, Hey, I went and did this trip and hey man, I’ve been dying to talk to somebody who’s done that and so let me sneak you off in the corner for, you know, a detox on it. George (23m 55s): So it’s a fantastic opportunity for everybody to kind of show up in one spot with one common denominator and that spay spay casting and the love of spay fishing. So it will be exactly as you described. Josh (24m 10s): I think one of the cool things is that, like you were talking about, you can bring a rod and match any kind of line that you want to try to it, but getting that knowledge from an anger that fishes on the op or has been, you know, sea run brown trout fishing or goes to Alaska king fishing and just does all of these things, you get to actually get that information in person from a real live person who’s actually done it and not someone who just is speculating about it and just kind of guessing. Yeah, 3 (24m 40s): I think that human connection is so valuable these days especially, I mean since covid OA lot of that was lost and a lot of our connection is just overline or zoom meetings or you know, through social media. And so having that one-on-one is gonna be a real special treats and just being able to meet new people and it’s gonna be a good time. Brian (25m 4s): Awesome. I wish I could come and join you guys, but I am unavailable at that time of year. 3 (25m 9s): I wish you could do. Brian (25m 11s): Yeah would be great. You know, let’s talk fishing ’cause you know, we all love to fish and is there any fishing going on at that time of year in that neck of the woods? 3 (25m 20s): Yeah, there’s, there’s still it’s kind of the tail, well it is the tail end. There’s still a few strand steelhead in there. The Sandy River is a winter steelhead fishery from, you know, December through April, the river Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife used to supplement it at like a summer run and there’s also, but that doesn’t exist anymore. There is also spring Chinook that come in the river and I have caught some like late May and that’s a real treat to do that. So there is fishing in May on the Sandy, so Josh could also elaborate more on that. Josh (26m 3s): Yeah, well the Sandy but also the Clackamas, which is kind of the right next door river would have summer steelhead available. Obviously there’s tons of trout fishing but typically fishing is pretty good in May. It’s just a great time to be out there. And there was a spay clave, you know, I don’t remember which year it was maybe 2007 or eight where Brian O’Keefe was still coming to it and he really liked filling the freezer If you will. And he ended up catching, I can’t remember, I think two springers one morning before the clave and harvested both of them. So I mean there’s definitely opportunities around, 3 (26m 41s): I was there with him. We were, I, Brian and I were fishing one of those days together And we, we strung up a Chinook on a stick and walked it back up to the clave walking into the parking lot, all like Huck fin. It was really funny but it tastes good. George (27m 0s): There’s some other stuff going on then Brian, that is a little off the typical radar that the Khalis, which is not all that far into Washington state has got, you know, virtual year round steel heading. But the other thing that’s going on that time of the year is the Tiger Muskie thing, which Mayfield Reservoir at the top of the Cowlitz is probably the most famous reservoir for tigers in the state of Washington. I think we’ve got around nine or 11 lakes, but that’s a pretty good target time. So there’s some stuff off the beaten path going on fishing wise right then as well. 3 (27m 38s): I’m gonna also plug in really quick the Deschutes too in May is gonna, may is when the salmon flies start, start really coming off in the lower river. And so if if someone’s coming to the clave, just come on over to mop in and fish a day or two because it is beautiful and the river is gorgeous and it’s just loaded with trout. So there we go. Brian (28m 0s): So Josh, you and me are both guide on the salmon fly fishery, don’t you? Josh (28m 5s): Yep. Yeah, that’s a great time. I do a different section than she does. I’d go from the Warm Springs area, so I, If you were to imagine we talk about the lower Deschutes, the lower a hundred miles for that salmon fly hatch I’m guiding from basically mile 100 to mile at whatever, 70 or 50, 70 or 65, something like that. So warm springs down to mopping And we do mostly three day float trips with drift boats and go through White Horse Rapids and you know, it’s kind of a long good event and it’s some of the best fishing that we’ll have all year. Marty and Mia do it more in, in mopping and north and the Lower River. 3 (28m 47s): Yeah, So we, we focus on, Marty and I focus on either day trips. I do a lot of day trips from mopping all the way down river to Max Canyon and then Marty launches a jet boat at Max Canyon and we’ll do three day trips down there where he sets up a fixed camp and, and then fishes from the jet boat. And so from run to run and one thing about the Deschutes, If you don’t know, If you haven’t been there, you, you can’t fish out of a boat on the Deschutes and so you actually get out, you go to a spot and then you get out and walk and wade that run and it’s, it’s phenomenal. It’s a really good time. Josh (29m 27s): So one of the things that’s cool like Mia was just saying is that the Deschutes, because you can’t fish out of the boat, you have to be a pretty good caster to make it happen. And where we’re really targeting those fish are like tight up under the trees, you know, it’s this kind of jungle fishing. It’s super, it’s very interesting, very hard to do, very technical just because of the casting is so difficult but the fish are very hungry and are looking up. Brian (29m 54s): I gotta ask George, you brought up the tiger muskie, I’ve never fished for muskie. Is that something you’re doing with a two-hander and Josh, your, your salmon fly trout fishing, is that done with a single hand or a two hand rod? Josh (30m 4s): We’re mostly doing single-handed for a trout, but some guys now more and more are doing a little bit of two hand swinging, If you will. Almost skating flies, especially in big tail outs where the salmon flies are landing kind of mid river after they’re laying eggs and floating kind of down the river. So it has a good opportunity and a good use to use that two-hander like that. George (30m 25s): The Tiger Musky stuff, Ryan is akin to pike fishing that you would think of in parts of Canada and Alaska. It’s really kind of made to order for nine way, maybe a 10 on the top end, a eight weight single hander on the bottom. But nine weights are my favorite for that game as well as the Pike game that I do quite a bit of in Alaska every year. Brian (30m 48s): And Mia what about you? Are you using trout space or are you on the single handers? 3 (30m 51s): No, I have four trout. We’re just using single hands that time of year and you know, a couple people come out and want to, you know, fish a trout spay and, and we’ll swing like all bully buggers or just big streamers and, but definitely fishing a dry fly and a big chubby is the most effective way to catch a trout on the Deschutes that time of year. We don’t start fishing two handed rods until our steelhead season. So really from about beginning of August, all the way beginning of August is our Deschutes Summer steelhead run is when we start focusing on it and we’ll fish it the Deschutes and then the Grand Ron and then the John Day between August 15th and November end of November or December 1st. 3 (31m 42s): And then we take about a month off and then go into swinging and two hands for winter steelhead in January through April Brian (31m 51s): And then it’s clave season 3 (31m 52s): And then it’s clave. Brian (31m 54s): Wow. So to me this is a, a great opportunity for someone, a good excuse to, to fly out to Oregon, check out some diverse fisheries and and also attend the clave good little getaway. I wanted to talk about, you guys call ’em Kings, right? Not Chinook Kings. I asked John McMillan about that and he, he calls him Chinook. I thought that was kind of odd for an American guy, but he has a good reason for it. The Chinook fishing’s always been my favorite. I love the fact that the fish eat the fly way out there. I love the fact that I don’t have to let the fly swim all the way to the dangle. I just, I just, something about getting a fish that you know really is angry at you and is just gonna take all your line and go away is really appealing. Steelheading is obviously a little bit more of a, I think a, a subtle art compared to Chinook fishing and you know, personally I’ve probably had my most enjoyable time Chinook fishing on the Cheena when it was open. Brian (32m 46s): Unfortunately on the Cheena we haven’t been able to target Chinook for a few years now, which is perhaps a little bit of a political football. But you know, at the end result is, you know, you can’t fish for Chinook catch from release on the Cheena. Hopefully the numbers come back a little higher. But in the last decade or so we’ve really seen kind of a widespread decline of Chinook numbers where steelhead numbers, they go up, they go down. There is unfortunately a bit of an identifiable trend for, for Chinook salmon at least here in bc. How’s it been down in your neck of the woods? Josh (33m 15s): Well, Chinook’s in, in the lower 48 Oregon especially, you know, we really have spring Chinook and fall Chinook, So we get two main runs of them. I think that here, sadly they don’t eat flies as good as they do as you get further north BC and Alaska. But the runs for fall Chinook especially have been banner in the Columbia and the best returns we’ve had in forever spring chinooks have been mediocre at best. And I think that’s kind of the same thing that we’re seeing a little bit all over the place. 3 (33m 48s): The fall Chinook are supplemented by hatcheries and they’re a very important source for Native Americans on the Columbia River. And so in the fall, usually in August, September, If you drive down the Columbia, you’ll see hundreds of nets in the Columbia. So they’re, they’re catching those fish and using them for subsistence and also selling them. George (34m 13s): I’ll speak to Alaska Brian, this’ll be my 42nd consecutive year of fishing kings in Alaska and I started in 1983 when I was guiding in the Bristol Bay region. So I’ve seen 40, you know, 40 plus years of it and I’ve seen the whole gamut of the good, bad and the ugly and and for the most part we could look at kings in Alaska today and probably the best term would be it’s hanging on. Josh and I do a trip every year on the Noosh G And we generally hit it pretty good largely because after these 40 years I know when to be there, which is a pretty, pretty narrow period of about, it’s a five to 10 day period when it’s gonna happen and we’ve certainly had a pretty good go at it to outta the last three years, but it’s a shadow of its former self. George (35m 10s): We can go into all the reasons why and the reasons are many and varied, but I am one person who can tell you about the good old days because what we saw in the eighties, in a good chunk of the nineties and really what you Brian saw on the connect talk kind of in the fourth quarter, which I consider what you saw when you, you were getting a good crack of that, you were seeing definitely the two minute warning of the greatness. But it’s, it’s a really interesting thing to watch what has happened and it’s a lot more negative than positive, but we continue to go because as we like to call it the big pole, you know, like you’re talking about that fish, that clobbers that way out there, it’s still one of my favorite things to do in any form of fishing. George (35m 60s): Is that, 3 (36m 1s): George, do you think the limiting factor is commercial fishing up in Alaska or is it the angler retention? ’cause I know that anglers are allowed to, or it used to be able to keep a couple or you know, is it climate change I mean, or is it just all that together? George (36m 18s): Well I think it’s all gonna get a finger pointed at it, but you know, it’s pretty hard not to point a pretty stern finger at the, the bycatch in Alaska. That one’s a pretty popular one to point a finger at. And the reality of the bycatch in the Pollock fishery is that it’s been going on for decades and it probably really, I would say that the King game in Alaska really hit a wall in about 2019 in, up until then, yeah, you could say it was, it was downtrodden in various places, but it, it hadn’t hit the wall that it would hit in 2019. George (37m 2s): And I think the bycatch thing is one of the biggest issues. And then in river kill, right, you know, the Nok is a great example of this where these fish have worked so hard to just simply get there. They survived two to four seasons in the salt, they survived killer whales, they survived everything that they could survive and they make it in on that tide and they’re getting, you know, they’re getting caught on a downstream trolling spoon or a spinner and suddenly they’re in the bottom of a boat. And, and so that in river kill by sports fishermen has certainly contributed to it, but it’s just Alaska has always had this kind of harvest mentality, a mentality that I think has largely disappeared from northern California, Washington state in, in Oregon. George (37m 56s): And I mean it’s still there in bits and pieces take Buoy 10 on the Columbia for an example, but that harvest mentality has been a hard one to kind of weed weed the populace of in the state of Alaska. So that’s what I would tell you Brian (38m 12s): George, I remember you and I talked about this the other day, but I got my opportunity to go to Alaska kind of through you because for whatever reason, I guess it was probably 2007, 2008, you were unable to go and, and they needed someone to fill a guest instructor spot. So I was the lucky recipient of that opportunity. And having never been to Alaska, I wasn’t really prepared for what I was gonna experience because here in bc you know, Chinook fishing on the Lilette and the Harrison, we, you know, we worked pretty hard to find a fish every day or two. And I remember, I think it was maybe like my second or third day there, you know, the guides would take you out at night and that whole kind of pipeline zoo bar section and you could see these things blobbing in the distance and they’re coming and there was a day there where, you know, I saw everybody on the bar, everybody on the bar had fish on kind of one after another and it wasn’t, wasn’t the whole day, but I’ve just, it was like pink salmon fishing but they were freaking king salmon. Brian (39m 10s): It was unbelievable and it spoiled me, you know, it was just, you know, to have that opportunity and to see the potential. So you start talking about the eighties and I think, man, was this just kind of like what every day was like back then when it was good? George (39m 24s): Well it was straight up ridiculous in the eighties. I was on the Agac as Guide for three years in the eighties and we could actually tell you that one Fish in eight hooked, regardless of flyer gear was over 40 pounds. One in eight was over 40 on the Agac. And the nac, which everybody thinks of these days, is a fantastic big rainbow fishery, which it most certainly is, particularly in the fall that actually had the biggest chinook of any river in Bristol Bay. And all these kids that are after these giant rainbows nowadays have no earthly idea about that other than they occasionally run into one spawning in the Nak knack above, above Rapids camp where they’ll see one spawning and it’ll be, you know, a four foot long fish. George (40m 13s): But the Nak nack produced the most 50 to 60 pounders of any river in Bristol Bay in the 1980s. The Noia G when I guided it in 1985 for a full season, the numbers of fish, you know, I think a a so-so run in those days was 150,000 of them. A big run was quarter million of them. And you know, in terms of guiding people, we’d say don’t run that plug out unless you’re ready to fight ’em. Don’t put that out unless you’re ready to fight one. ’cause you’re gonna be fighting one. And it went on, you know, it went on and on for years at that level. And I fished at Connect Talk Brian for 22 straight years at one juncture and it was, you know, fantastic on the fly. George (41m 1s): I got a great zoo bar story, which if and when you wanna talk about Great Fish Lost, I’ll tell you one from Z Bar, Brian (41m 9s): Let’s get into it. What, what happened at Z Bar? George (41m 12s): Well I was there, there was a time when Alaska West had their camp on Z Bar and Zbars about 120 yards long. And it’s got, it’s got a top, it’s got a body, it’s got a quasi tail out And we named the tail out coffin corner because If you found yourself fighting one in coffin corner, more often than not something lousy would occur to you with that fish. You had the unique opportunity to go downstream and drown or you had the unique opportunity to watch your fish go into snags that were gonna become impossible or maybe just, maybe you could get somebody to start a boat and you could jump in it. George (41m 52s): And Deck Hogan came and fished with us one year and it was also the year of the infamous deck Hogan Knockout the Gear Guide. I was witness to that at Point Blank Rage, it’s one of the great stories of all time too. But I hooked a fish that week, I hooked it down in the bottom and I know sooner hooked it. I was in coffin corner and deck Manch to get a boat started. We jumped in the boat, I think I was fishing, I might’ve been fishing a 15 foot for a 10, I think I might’ve been that particular year, which I believe was 1996. George (42m 33s): And we fought this fish downstream out of the boat. I’d seen this fish roll right when I hooked it and deck was next to me and I turned and looked at him and I said 55 as in 55 pounds. And we got this fish off of seven root wads. We were seven and oh until number eight. Number eight she got us and we lost that fish And we drove the boat back to camp. You know, we had, we, we, we were defeated but boy we had seen something that was pretty, pretty awesome and Z Bar was, Z bar was so good Brian, that there were times that we would leave in the morning, go upstream a quarter mile, sit in the boat for 10 minutes and then go back to camp So we could fish zoo bar. George (43m 27s): That’s how good it was. And like you said, you’d see fish and you’d see ’em, there’d be fish in there all the time during King Seasons and they’re in there full time of some level. But three to five hours after a high tide is when you’d see that famous, the BLBs, the BLBs coming and those fish had come in and they’re chrome and purple backed and that fish saw a fly. Whether that fly was Chartres and white or purple, that fish ate the fly. It wasn’t too that fly came by that fish, that fish ate it and it was nothing like it. And I’m sure glad I was a part of it to see that because I’m not sure we’re gonna ever see that in North America at that level again. Brian (44m 9s): Well you bring up, you said North America. So I gotta ask, what do you guys think of the, the Chinook fishing, the king salmon fishing in Chile and Argentina these days? George (44m 18s): Well I’ve gone and done it, I did it in 2016. I went down there and of course everybody told me just, oh just bring your stuff that you fish in Alaska, George. And of course, you know, I had buckets of that stuff and took buckets of it. And Brian, I wasn’t in that river system 10 minutes and I knew I was screwed for the week because the rivers looked like southern Oregon. NorCal, they looked like the Smith or the Coqui or the Eel, the Lower Rogue. And these fish are in these pools and they’re, I don’t know if there’s 40 of them in the first run I was in or 240 of them, but there was a pile of them and they looked to be 20 to 60 pounds and we’re out there running, you know, typical Skagit T 14, you know, chartreuse something intruder, blah blah blah blah blah. George (45m 11s): And we’re running this, flying this sink dip through these fish and we’re just pushing ’em out of the way. We couldn’t hook one for love their money and I wasn’t there 10 minutes and I knew I was screwed because if someone would’ve just said to me and shame on me for not researching it better, but if someone would’ve just said, Hey George, this is gonna be a trip into the 1960s in Northern California, Southern Oregon, I’d have gone, ah, got it. Nine weight monofilament was shooting heads, intermediate type two, type three small comet flies, boss flies little clouds or minnows, get above ’em in the boat, quarter down, cast swing into ’em, strip through ’em. George (45m 56s): I’d have been in business, I might’ve caught some, I might’ve caught tons, but I wasn’t told that, I wasn’t able to research that. So I can tell you it ain’t Alaska, it’s not British Columbia. I think most of those fish are tootle or Tooley strange Chinooks from Washington state, which is Josh and Mia will tell you are not exactly the greatest biters to start with. And so that’s a tough game down there. It’s a game where I think for a client that wants to go down there and fish with Austria Kings or with the Tre Amigos, you’re maybe gonna hook one to three a day, probably have some days when you don’t hook any and it’s not gonna be Alaska. George (46m 38s): That’s the bad news. The good news is they got lots and lots of big ones. Big ones, Josh (46m 45s): Yeah those pictures of those things are massive man. Talk about a big fish down there. Brian (46m 50s): I have a fished firm down there, but I really wanted to just tell you guys a very quick story. Years ago I guided on a river called the Food La Fu, which is known as a trout stream. And I guided for a guy named Jim Re Pine, they used to call him Mr. Alaska when he was in Alaska. He was a writer who moved to Chile and married a Chilean and ran a cute little trout outfit there. And I’m drifting down the river and I get two locals kind of sturdy looking, couple waving at me to come to shore. I thought maybe there was something wrong. So I, I rode my boat with my, my clients over there and they had a 45 pound dead Chinook laid on the bank that they caught on a coffee can if I remember correctly. And you know, this was big news then. I didn’t even know there was Chinook in the river so I was like, what are we doing trying to catch all these little trope but the Chinook were quite colored. Brian (47m 34s): So what I wanted to ask you, George, in your experience down there, were you catching silver ones or were these fish colored? Because a lot of the photos I’m seeing, Josh, you talked about those pictures of the big ones, it seems like they’re getting them when they’re not silver. George (47m 48s): Well it depends on the river system where I think where the Austria King boys are and, and certainly where I was, we were fishing them sub 30 miles of salt. In fact the, the week I was there, the year I was there, Gary Loomis was there and Gary fished the river exactly one day hooked two on gear, they couldn’t fish bait, bait was not legal. Gary fished the river exactly one day and then Gary proceeded to go down in the estuary and he was down there, you know, basically trolling in the estuary on a little rig called a Brad’s super bait, which is a really popular thing like in buoy 10 and stuff like that. George (48m 32s): And Gary was hooking, if I remember right, ’cause I’d, I’d talk to him every night about it. He, he was hooking four to 16 a day in the estuary and those fish were basically 20 to 60 pounds and they got numerous ones over 50. All the fish I saw in the river system were bright, they weren’t colored up. But those, these ones you see on Instagram, the re amigos boys, they’re way up, they’re 90 miles up that river system and they’re fishing those fish in the Boca where the lake system dumps out into the rivers, mainly what they’re doing. George (49m 14s): So that would be like fishing, think about the connect talk, which is a 90 mile river system, whatever Chino should be in that upper 20 miles, say call it July 10th, those guys would be colored up, they’d be fire engine up there. Think of that same thing going on down there in Chile, but they’re catching monsters. I mean the, the level of 40 to 70 pounders and even bigger is astounding. I mean it’s like looking at, you know, the historical Columbia Frazier, Kenai River, Chinook strains and, and these guys have now got them, you know, in the year 2025. George (49m 56s): So Josh (49m 56s): You know, I think that also New Zealand has a huge run of Chinooks down there as well and a lot of guys are fishing ’em, you know, tidally and doing really good on catching some pretty big ones George (50m 8s): And they love red white flies in New Zealand, believe it or not. That’s their favorite color. 3 (50m 12s): Listening to you guys talk about fishing Chinook, I’m a little jealous because I have never fished for Chinook with a two-handed rod usually. And I mean when it’s happening in Alaska in June, Marty and I are busy bass fishing and taking people bass fishing. So we’ve never had the opportunity to go up there. And then also, you know, just raising a daughter for the last 17 years is also keeps us really busy in those summer months. But this June I was trying to mark out some time on the calendar to go fish the kasilof on the Kenai for for Kings because there is a hatchery run there that I know that people can still fish and the returns are supposed to be pretty good. 3 (51m 2s): I’m sure you fished at George and probably know a little bit about that. Is it still happening up there, George? George (51m 8s): Yeah, it’s not like it was, I mean there was a time, a time right around 2000 to 2004 when that fishing was awfully righteous. It’s one place where you don’t need big sink tips. Take a 15 foot, a hundred twenty nine, fifteen foot, 150 grain type six is about the right animal in there. Black, blue, purple chartreuse, orange shades is what I’d tell you to run with. And it’s got good access. It’s classic swing water below what they call the people’s hole. And you can start there and kinda work your way down River River left and give it a go. George (51m 50s): And it’s a fun time of year because you can be doing some other stuff. You could spend a few hours a day doing that. You could also go trout fish, you know, after June 11th you can go trout fish, the various parts of the Kenai and tributaries and there’s fantastic saltwater fishing up there. In fact, if you’re going to go make sure I get you the name of our saltwater guy outta Seward that we’re fly fishing with because what we’re able to do with these guy that nowadays in terms of halibut, big wings on the fly has become really a new frontier and you’re gonna want to go do this. So make sure I get that to you. Josh (52m 29s): Just to step back here for a sec, Brian, you were saying how George got you connected with the Connect talk. Well around 2004 he got me a job or got me a lead on a job to guide for Kings in Alaska on the Sandy River. So I’m kind of indebted to him also on that same sense. And that was really one of the coolest things that I ever got to do. 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Only you can visit trout routes.com right now to learn more and download the Trout Routes app for free in the app store today. That’s trout routes. T-R-O-U-T-R-O-U-T-E-S. Start exploring today, Brian (54m 59s): Man, the whole time I’m on the connect talk, you know, thinking that this has to be the best fishing in Alaska ’cause it’s the only fishing in Alaska I’ve done. And then you meet these clients that have been out to the Sandy and you hear their stories and then you think about just to fish in that, that setting and that environment. That would be a, a heavy lift for me to pull that off with my, my current wage. But one day I’d love to get out there and check out out and see what that’s all about. Josh (55m 21s): Yeah, you know, it’s one of those things, it’s kind of that shifting baseline, right? When I guided there, it’s like when George was talking about the eighties and you know, when I guided on the Sandy in 2004 through eight or nine, you know, there was, there’s no village out there, so it’s about as remote as it can get. There weren’t any other camps. It was our camp and a fishing game cabin. Now there’s another little small camp in the lower river and the fishing’s of course not like it was, but it’s still lights out. I mean it’s such a cool unique place and the wildlife, the amount of bears that you see, there’s wolves running around tons of moose. I mean it’s just a, the coolest experience. 3 (56m 3s): Yeah, Alaska’s a really special place. Love it there. I used to, and not a lot of people know this, but I commercial fished up there in the late nineties for a couple years and worked in Bristol Bay on gill netting boats, and then also crab fished out of Dutch Harbor for a couple seasons. And just so I love fishing. I love catching fish. I love eating fish and I love everything about it. I love guiding now and taking people on the water and it’s just a, a constant evolution and I’m gonna keep doing it. Marty and I are actually purchasing some property up there in Alaska and trying to, trying to just make it another a second home. 3 (56m 48s): So Brian (56m 48s): Nice. Me, I, I didn’t know bad about the Alaska crab fishing. I mean, I, I loved watching that show Deadliest Catch. So did you know any of those guys? 3 (56m 56s): I did. I have seen it a couple times and I was like, oh, I remember that guy. So, yeah. Yeah, there, there’s a couple of people that I recognize from, from the nineties. Yeah, I, that show kind of cracks me up because it makes everybody look so glorious and you know, like they’re rock stars and Yeah, I have a different story. So, but it’s crazy work. I mean it’s definitely, it’s hard work and it’s, you know, long days, long hours getting beat up by the ocean and yeah, it’s pretty wild. Brian (57m 32s): Yeah, I don’t know how the heck Canada didn’t figure out how to get Alaska, but I mean, I guess, I guess these days we have to worry about, about the US getting Canada, but don’t laugh. 3 (57m 43s): I know. Brian (57m 45s): So I wanna go back to the clay for a minute because I keep thinking, you know, what a great trip this would be for someone who’s, you know, maybe they’ve done a little bit of spay casting or they’re just really want to get into it, but they’re, they’re concerned about, you know, spending their money the right way and getting set up properly. George talked about it earlier and it’s certainly been my experience over time. We’ve seen a trend towards shorter spay rods and I’m of the belief that the perfect fishing rod is about 12 feet long. That’s the perfect compromise to be able to control line at distance. Not too big to carry around working close from one day to the next. Steelhead fishing, I probably got a 12 footer, maybe 12 foot 10, that’s, that’s what I’m fishing. But with the clave. And I guess this question’s probably best suited to George because you’re, you’re the, the tackle rep guy, but with the clay, have you seen over the years an interest, like I’m talking about, go from longer rods down to shorter rods? George (58m 38s): A hundred percent. Brian, you know, the rod companies, Josh at one point was with Loomis. Mia and Marty have had a lot of Loomis rods in and out their boat. Sage and Loomis brought the shorter game really into focus in the spay world. And I would say today I kind of think of 13 feet as kind of the common denominator with, you know, stuff being 12 foot six to maybe 13, four being most of what we see, what really made that possible was the advent and development of these lines, these shorter Skagit lines, the, the advent of acceptance of the scandy style lines in the United States in the Steelhead Theater. George (59m 27s): But as the lines got better and got shorter, it allowed those shorter rods to finally have their damn court for eight straight years. I went to Del Fuego and did the sea run brown thing. At one juncture in the first couple of years, all these guys were showing up with 14 foot nine weights that the fly shop in Redding had told ’em to take. And these guys would show up with these massive sticks. And of course, you know, we’d show up in our quiver. Yeah, we’d have a 91 40, but we’d also have a short eight weight and a short eight weight might have been something, you know, that was 12 foot four, 12 foot six. George (1h 0m 9s): And what you find, and what we found then, which I would say in that 2000 3, 4, 5 period is when the revolution into these shorter rods really picked up steam is that number one in a lot of wind and tear fugo, If you don’t know this, it’s got wind to the point where you can literally stand and lean yourself forward and not fall over. I mean, I ain’t making that up. And you don’t wanna 14 foot nine weight in that environment. You want a 12 and a half foot eight, a 12 foot three, 12 foot, four eight weight. You don’t want anything past 13 because the longer that rod is, the more wind affects it and you don’t produce the line speed that you need to really play in those conditions. George (1h 0m 54s): The other thing about the Rio Grande River that always shocks everyone is they see all these photos and it looks big in the photos. Well, when you get there and you actually weighed out in it, you oftentimes weighed 30% of that width of the river just where you get to a spot where you’re actually gonna cast. So it’s, it’s really, it’s a big river that’s actually not all that big and doesn’t need those kind of weapons. But to be sure these shorter lines, Skagit short, Skagit max power, the rage, various things that are out there have really revolutionized the world where the 11 foot four switch rod, the 11 foot six switch rod have become baby spay. George (1h 1m 40s): And that those 12 to thirteens are the, that’s the cash money length, the rods today. 3 (1h 1m 45s): Yeah, I definitely, for winter steel and fishing, I like, you know, the, the 12 foot, you know, 12 foot sevens, it’s just, it’s nice ’cause we’re sometimes fishing, the water is higher and you don’t have, you’re up against the trees on the sandy and, and just need to make a, a tighter, shorter cast and those work pretty well. But on the Deschutes my go-to is a, is a 71 33. I just, I love that length. I love being able to cast scandy lines with it. So that’s, and it’s just a summer steelhead or just a little bit, they’re a lot different than a winter steelhead. 3 (1h 2m 26s): And I like fish in those small classic flies, floating lines and you can do all that and it works. Brian (1h 2m 33s): Do any of you guys fish bamboo? 3 (1h 2m 35s): I do a little bit. Not as much as I’d like to. Marty about eight or 10 years ago, he dove down the bamboo road and he actually started making some bamboo rods and it’s, they’re definitely, they’re really fun, very beautiful to fish. So I don’t know if, have you fished them Josh Bamboo? Josh (1h 2m 59s): I have fished them. I don’t own any sadly, but I could see that being a thing in my future. ’cause that’s also the action of Rods that I like. Something that is slower and loads deeper, a little bit easier to cast, kind of launches it. George (1h 3m 12s): I had the good fortune, Brian, a fishing with Bob Clay when he was still guiding on the dean. And I remember one particular morning, one particular year, he brought one of his, I think it was a 12 foot five eight weight if I remember right. And he put me in a run with it and it was that I’d never fished one before. I’d certainly heard about ’em, but I’d never fished one and every cast I thought I was gonna break it, right? Like every time you came, you came around into that D Loop Ford stroke, I thought, oh my God, I’m gonna break this thing and they’re never gonna find my body. Right. And I caught two fish that morning, which I’m sure you know, Bob in, in his years of wisdom knew this was the greatest way to get steelhead customers to buy one of his rods. George (1h 4m 5s): And subsequently three of us bought one that week. And no, they were really cool. I mean, there’s nothing quite like it. And Bob had that length, you know, like you talked about that 12, 12 foot five, 12 foot eight, he had those things just absolutely mastered. And that certainly got, you know, one thinking about that length of rod, not just that action, but that length of rod as well. Brian (1h 4m 35s): I remember Bob has a very, a very interesting fish landing technique with the bamboo. George (1h 4m 40s): Well, I don’t know what I remember. I think I just remember catching a couple on it and I’m not sure what he had me do, but we did land them in. Boy, it was, it was really cool. It was just fishing with that guy was, was an experience in itself. And I had the good pleasure for about three out of eight seasons on the dean when he was there. So very thankful for that opportunity. Brian (1h 5m 7s): Bob’s absolutely a legend and his son Jed’s a good buddy of mine and my Mount Rushmore of podcast guests. I’d love to get Jed and Bob on the same show together. It’s something I was talking to Jed about before he went to Belize, so hopefully we can make it happen. What I was alluding to there with the landing is I, I think I remember watching Bob land a fish in his backyard and keeping the rod nice and safe and managing to keep the fish nice and wet and, you know, it was definitely a, a very unique way that he did it and kept everything good and safe. Talk about the clay for a second. Are there gonna be any bamboo rod builders there? 3 (1h 5m 39s): Yeah, there’s gonna be five bamboo rod builders. James Reed Poppy, a guy named Patrick, I think his company is called Jaymo and he’s down in southern Oregon. The cool thing about bamboo rods these days or these days, at least the last 10 years or so, the, from what I know, they’ve become a lot lighter in just how they’re built. So they’re a hollow taper and that makes ’em a lot lighter. The flexes. It’s not, it’s more like the rods I fish today, like a, like a G Loomis 71 33 is, it’s not real soft, it’s not real stiff. 3 (1h 6m 21s): They’re very, very pleasant to fish and I love them. Brian (1h 6m 24s): I had the opportunity to have a, a chat with Adrian Cortez a couple weeks ago and as you guys probably know Adrian, the guy just lives to fish bamboo and you know, tying flies in hand and basically setting up these guardrails for his fishing to make it as challenging as possible. But isn’t that the, the fun part about fly fishing is whatever you’re into, tan carra, if that’s your thing, Euro nymphing, any of that weird stuff that I don’t personally have much to do with, if it brings you joy, then good for you. It’s just, you know, getting people out there. And I guess one of the things that sort of does bug me about our community of spay anglers out there is when you get someone who decides that, you know, somehow because they fish a, a longer line, longer rod a scandy, not a skagit, that somehow puts them ahead of, of someone who fishes skagit in a sink tip. Brian (1h 7m 14s): And the reality from my perspective is that good casting is good casting. And so, you know, these days I have a caster rod that I don’t like. If it’s got the right line on it, everyone makes awesome equipment and I think it’s important for people to, to recognize that, you know, everything that we’ve seen in the evolution of tackle has been driven by efficiency. You know, people wanting to solve a problem, a particular fishery. George, you were talking about the approach to Chinook down in close to the salt in Chile there and, and how you, you had a different mindset going there, thinking Alaska, thinking BC but if you’d thought about it as being, you know, these other fisheries that you’re familiar with, you’d probably be more successful with the fish solving a specific problem. Brian (1h 7m 59s): And I, I don’t know enough about the history to speak on it, but I I hopefully you guys can fill me in ’cause I think it’s important. But weren’t some of the, some of the earliest Chinook king salmon anglers in Oregon actually fishing in the estuary from a boat, right? Casting and stripping. George (1h 8m 14s): Yes. Same in NorCal, you go back and they, you know, you got, you had the famous Bill Sha and a northern California guy and who was the, the artist? Russ Chatham. Russ Chatham. And you had those guys and Bob Heim who went on to start one of the early booking agencies in the west coast. Yeah, these guys were fishing estuary for both, not only Chinook but Steelhead. Oh yeah, oh yeah. No, they were doing, it was seasonal. Right. And everybody listening to this podcast today, get your mitts on that one video that’s out there called Rivers of a Lost Coast, who’s the guy that narrates it, Tom Skit. George (1h 9m 1s): He lives here in Seattle Rivers of the Lost Coast. And it really depicts the history of steelhead and salmon in the west coast dating back to the glory days in the California coast, mid California coast northward. And it’s, it’s a great video to watch Tom Scarritt, Tom Scar’s guy that narrates it. And man, it really show you what was going on back in those days, so on and so forth. And some of the shenanigans that went on with some of those guys in NorCal, bill Sha was legendary for doing stuff that, you know, would be unheard of today, throwing flies that were rigged with razor blades to cut other people’s lines. George (1h 9m 49s): I mean all sorts of stuff that went on great history. But one of the things that’ll be, that is really cool at the clave is you brought up rod length is we’ll set up all these sage rods and we’ll have all these R eight rods, the newest ones from Sage, and we’ll get these guys that you know, well what do you think about this eight weight and that weight eight eight weight? And I’ll say, well I’ve got ’em both here and you’re gonna get to cast them both and I want you to cast this one and then I want you to cast that one and then you come back and talk to me. I’m not gonna bias you on which one or what, what I think I want you to go play. George (1h 10m 30s): And then you come back and talk to me and then we’ll chat about it. And it really lets, it’s, it is just such an opportunity to play with rods and lines for people that otherwise it’s really difficult to go get your mitts on this stuff. And so we’ll be talking about lots of those shorter rods. Brian, there’s no doubt that 12 and a half and thirteens will be the dominant conversation come those days in May. This 3 (1h 10m 58s): Is gonna be such a unique opportunity where you have the guides, you got the fly shops, you have the brand representatives, and so just a wealth of knowledge so people that can explain the equipment, the people that can show you how to cast it and then where you can go buy it again, there’s just nothing else like this. So it’s gonna be a great opportunity for people. Josh (1h 11m 22s): I think one of the cool things, and not to detract from Mark Bachman doing this from the Welch’s Fly shop, but now that it’s not a fly shop run, you know, event, now you’re gonna get more participation from royal treatment, you know, the Portland Fly Shop Northwest, whatever the surrounding fly shops are. So you’re gonna have a little bit greater outreach and a little bit better experience I think. Yeah, 3 (1h 11m 47s): I have not been shy to ask everybody, as many people as I can to, to come to come to this event and all three Portland fly shops are gonna be there. And then I’ve asked, just trying to get more representation from, from guides on the river. Brian (1h 12m 5s): So I was gonna bring this up before George, you, you talked about the, the sage 14 foot nine weight, the three piece, the old brown one, right? George (1h 12m 12s): Well there was a three piece and there was a four piece and one, the three piece, Brian was more on the European fast action side of the street and the four piece was on the Jimmy Green og, you know, soulful side of the street If you will, Brian (1h 12m 28s): All great rods. But you know, that particular rod, the episode of In the Bucket that’s currently out there, this is with Tim Arseno spare Ram champion this year and Matthew Bentley who’s a guide out of Vancouver. You know, we kind of went on a little bit of a a tangent about that rod because that was just, you know, everybody loved that Rod. It was such an easy casting rod, it had power to spare. And I gotta ask the sage rods of today, in your view, are they that much better than those early ones or just different George (1h 13m 1s): Probably three points here. Are they better? I think they’re more user friendly and more efficient than they were in those days. But the lines there are, I mean I will tell if I tell one guy this, I’ll tell 50 guys this at the clave, there are no bad spay rots. There’s only spay rots who haven’t found the right bullet to shoot out of it yet. And so the lines really, we can save anybody’s spay rod from a, a life in a dusty garage if we can simply examine the rod and select a line that we feel that that caster can now fly the plane, as I like to say. George (1h 13m 46s): But today’s rods are definitely lighter from all the various major players. They’re lighter, they’re more responsive, and every Rod family from way back then, which that rod was part of the RPL family that you’re speaking of, going back to that timeframe and there’s been, you know, Sage has had some incredibly famous rods, you know, the death star, which I’m the guy who named it that, that’s probably still the most famous two hand or maybe in US history, certainly in Sage’s history. And there’s just certain rods that I just think the fairy dust got dropped into. George (1h 14m 27s): And right now, Josh will tell you from our time in Alaska, there’s the 81 26 R eight is one of those rods. It just seems like the dust got dropped into that one and it’s, it’s usually a unique combination of a given rod with a given line that just where the magic just goes on. And for us in the tackle business and me and Josh in the tackle business and the guide business, we’ve gotta make sure all these rods have got lines that support those rods to a maximum efficiency and effectiveness. And so it’s, yeah, the rods have gotten better but the lines have gotten dramatically better. George (1h 15m 9s): There were damn sure some rods Brian back in the day that I can think of that we had at Sage, there was a 91 26 RPL, there was an 81 28, there was some stuff that was really would be awesome today, but we didn’t have the fly lines to support ’em in those days. I mean you’re running around with wind cutter, you know, 7, 8, 9, 8, 9, 10, 9, 10, 11, you, we were running around with limited bullets for the guns. So a lot of the guns just didn’t end up shooting. And thank God that the Edwards and the S Scott House and those boys, you know, got enough scotch and cigars in hand and went in the chop shop and went to work, right? George (1h 15m 55s): So that we would have, you know, these next generation lines and the next generation after that to really put this stuff on the map, you know, so on and so forth. But I do wanna go back to something you said a few minutes ago, which, which I think is really important. It’s interesting at these clays, we just did one up here in Washington state, Emerald water anglers, Dave McCoy who puts on a great event late January and you know, we’ve got all these rods set up and you know, Eric Neufeld has got his Winston set up and a lot of years Jake circle’s there with Loomis, blah blah blah, blah blah. And there’s always some guys that’ll be out on the, on the river bank throwing the long lines. George (1h 16m 39s): It’s the long line crab. And these guys are often tremendous casters and they are, they are something to watch. But I watch them and people will often ask me, well what do you think about that going on up there? And I kind of poke a little fun at that bear because I look at it as the kid in basketball practice that’s doing nothing but shooting half court shots. He’s not working on his mid range jumpers, he’s not shooting layups, he’s not shooting shots off rebounds, he’s not doing much of which is gonna actually go on when you get out there. So yeah, that’s kind of my thought on that one. 3 (1h 17m 22s): Well I’ve entered spay orama, what, eight or nine times and you know, one it three times and cast those long lines and those big rods, but I’ve never fished ’em. So you know, I’m always fishing the short lines or you know, a Skagit or a scandy and because that’s what’s effective, it’s easy and I can cast a short line all day, whereas casting a 70 foot head all day long with a 10 foot, you know, 10 weight rod, nah, it’s just doesn’t, doesn’t cut it for my five foot two frame, which Brian (1h 17m 59s): It makes it especially impressive that, that you did manage to win SAMA a few times, right? Because you have to wait so darn deep in the pond. So from the tip of your rod to your anchor point is you didn’t have a ton of room there, did you? 3 (1h 18m 12s): No, not, not at all. And I, you know, there’s only one shorter person than me competing and you know, she’s five foot or five foot one and I’m five foot two. Yeah Donna. And so I’m standing in water that’s that’s right at my waist and so I’m having to lift further up, lift higher and yeah, it’s, it’s challenging but you know, luckily I row boats for a living, which gives me the strength to do it. Brian (1h 18m 38s): Josh at the fly shop there we’re all treatment, you guys are obviously selling a lot of spay equipment these days. Are you finding that there’s sort of a, a bit of an interest in longer belly casting, competition type casting long rods and big distance? Josh (1h 18m 52s): I don’t see too much of that. There is, there is an interest in maybe more mid headlines, let’s say 30 to 50 feet, something like that. Maybe not even quite that 50 foot head length but that kind of neck size up. And some guys like a little bit longer rod, but it’s guys are trying to use that on a 12 and a half foot seven weight or a 13 foot seven weight and just, I think they’re seeing that it is, as we have a lack of fish or a downturn run, fish are a little harder to catch. Everyone still wants to go steelheading and spay casting and they want to do it just like we’re talking about they’re whatever way they want to do it, however they can maximize the fund that they’re gonna have even if they’re not catching fish. Josh (1h 19m 41s): And so I think that is kind of the big reason we’re seeing a trend towards that. Brian (1h 19m 46s): Interesting. Have you guys tried Timmy’s lines, the bridge lines? Josh (1h 19m 49s): Yeah, really good. Brian (1h 19m 51s): Yeah, I like what he’s doing there. Josh (1h 19m 53s): Yeah, nice. And that’s exactly the, that kind of line length, right? That’s stepped over to like, you know, 30 to 45 foot heads kind of thing. Brian (1h 20m 3s): Nice. Is Timmy gonna be at your event? 3 (1h 20m 5s): He is awesome and he’s presenting. Yeah. Brian (1h 20m 8s): That’s great. Yeah, 3 (1h 20m 9s): Super excited about that. Brian (1h 20m 11s): You guys have to let him back into Canada when it’s all over. 3 (1h 20m 14s): I don’t know, I think we’re gonna keep him, Brian (1h 20m 18s): You know, Tim’s a guy that has worked really hard to get to where he is in casting, you know, Tim and I used to practice together a little bit down at his pond in Vancouver and, and he used to come up and see me in Squamish and we’d cast and you know, he fought through back issues and every time just always getting better. Always the work ethic that guy has and he’s such a pleasant individual. I hope he defends it well this year and I wouldn’t bet against him. That’s for darn sure. 3 (1h 20m 44s): Yeah, he is, he is a really good person. Had a, just a, a lot of laughs at the ponds with him. Yeah, Brian (1h 20m 50s): It isn’t that, I mean that’s the thing about fishing, right? Is it’s all about camaraderie, the shared human experience. It’s, you know, there’s a whole mental health component to it. There’s a lot of value in fishing and I guess, you know, through covid I this became incredibly evident and then, you know, as steelhead runs go up, steelhead runs go down. We definitely have seen periods there where, where people get this kind of feeling like, how long is this gonna last for? But the reality of the situation is that, you know, steelhead returns over recorded history, at least here in BC have always had this, this fluctuation we’ve seen on the chena very low returns in the fifties, in the seventies in the, in the early nineties, in the early nineties, 91, 92, 93, we had three of the worst years on record and you know, 98 was the best year on record. Brian (1h 21m 35s): So I think it’s important to recognize that there’s value in angling and that, you know, catch and release angling is incredibly low impact. And events like the clave, you know, they build community and it’s, it’s good to get people excited to go fishing. We don’t want people feeling bad about going fishing. I think it’s important to recognize your own impact and do what you can to minimize it. But, you know, I applaud anyone who’s putting together events that are, encourage people to get out there and fish. It’s certainly done a lot of good for me in my life. 3 (1h 22m 2s): Yeah, I think angling impact is very, is is very low. I’ve done a a little bit of research ever since 2000 or 2021, just trying to find information on that actual impact. And one research paper said, and again, they’re talking mostly research papers are mostly about gear fishing and not fly fishing specific. And so when they talk about that 5% brutality rate when it comes to recreational fishing, it’s usually a gear fishing rate that they’re looking at. I did find one paper that was fly fishing specific to trout and the mortality rate was only about 2% or under 2%. 3 (1h 22m 49s): And so anyway, but you know, fishing has so many benefits and just being on the water, it makes people feel good. Your endorphins go up, you’re out there in the wild, you’re away from your phone and all the traffic and, and the kids and you know, you’re making new friends and, and just doing something fun on the water. So it’s really good. George (1h 23m 13s): And the folks that, you know, everybody’s out there, you know, chasing the dream, chasing steelhead, those people are stewards. They, some of ’em start out as they’re stewards and advocates, but they become stewards and advocates because, you know, it’s, it, it’s a fish of a thousand cast, right? And you gotta be in love with casting to wanna spay fish for steelhead. You gotta be in love with casting and the love of the fish and the environment creates stewards. And without anglers we don’t really have stewards. Josh (1h 23m 47s): Yeah, it’s one of those things I’ve noticed when they close down a river system, you’re taking away the stewards. You certainly see that. And you know, it seems like a lot of times the angler is also self-policing the river, right? So they’re taking care of a lot of those issues that you wouldn’t see day to day, especially poaching it if there’s no one around to see you, you know, harvest a wild fish, there’s not anyone to stop you. But I think it really cuts down on that kind of thing when you have people out there thinking about it, caring about it, wanting to be part of that. 3 (1h 24m 20s): There’s definitely a place for harvest and there’s, you know, and what we do is catch and release for steelhead because that’s what we’re focusing on 80% of the time. And, and people just enjoy the process of just, you know, connecting with something that’s wild and beautiful and then releasing it and just learning those techniques and as a guide and an outfitter, you know, part of my job is teaching people how to respect that resource and how to, you know, handle the fish properly, how to release the fish and you know, just taking care of the environment, the river, you know, it’s so important for the future generations and you know, if we’re gonna have healthy resources into the future for our kids, you know, we gotta, we gotta teach ’em the right way to do it. George (1h 25m 9s): Brian, I’ll bring up something that’s kind of one of my, I don’t know, it’s one of those around the campfire talks and this is probably as good a crowd as I could possibly think of to have it with, but I’m an Olympia Washington where I’m speaking to you from and Washington state more so than Oregon has had so many dramatic closures. The Skykomish, which is 35 minutes from downtown Seattle, was one of our most famous spay Steelhead Rivers and its proximity to Seattle kind of rivals that of say the Clackamas down there with Josh and Mia and we look at these closures and, you know, these restrictions and ESA listing this ESA listing that, and I kinda look at it from the standpoint, I, I mean people know me, know that I’m an extremely avid big game hunter and I look at the steelhead thing and there really ought to be a discussion. George (1h 26m 13s): There ought to be a discussion about drawing permits to fish rivers, you have to draw permit to fish the dean unguided. You have to buy a permit to be on some of the class rivers. That’s a way of managing pressure. And I, I just think there’s a real challenge, particularly here in Washington state to consider putting some of these rivers on a draw. Literally a draw because you know, Josh in the fly shop business like myself in the old days at Kaufman’s, man, can you imagine a guy that said, Hey, I drew this guy comish for the March seven to 14. George (1h 26m 54s): That guy comes in the store, how psyched, how stoked that guy’s gonna be. And hell, he might get rained out and not make a cast, but that’s no different than drawing a deer permit in a unit. You got snowed out or you got too, you had a full moon or you had something that screwed it up. It’s no damn different. But just the idea from a revenue standpoint, a management standpoint and opportunity standpoint, I think some of these fish and game departments are gonna have to start thinking about fishing maybe somewhat in the same way they manage deer, elk, sheep, moose. Because that’d be one way to really put some perspective and opportunity back in some of these places, in my opinion. Brian (1h 27m 41s): So you’re, you’re basically talking about a way to increase the value of the fishery. And this is a conversation we’ve had a few times on this show and, and whenever you have this conversation, the same thing comes up and that’s the ZEC system in Quebec. Are you guys familiar with the Z and what do you think of it? George (1h 27m 55s): I’m not, so let’s hear it. Brian (1h 27m 56s): All right. Well, okay, so none of us have actually used it, but so many people speak highly of it. And I remember Kenny Morris talking about Jim Vincent saying, Hey Bob Hooten saying that Jim Vincent said this was such a good system. Basically it’s a reservation based system. There’s only a limited amount of spaces you go online, you know, you, you book what you get and you, you know, you’re limited to that particular stretch, exactly the same thing you were just describing. And maybe you get there and the water’s not right and there’s not a fish on your beat. But what they do is they control the access and they control the access by enabling people to book, to pay in advance. And I think it’s kind of like an airline ticket. I think, you know, if If you book last minute you can get a bit of a deal or If you, If you book in the prime time, you’re gonna pay more. Brian (1h 28m 41s): But what it does is it manages angling pressure and maintains access and opportunity while keeping the value of the resource, you know, at the highest level possible versus what we have here in bc. You know, BC is probably a little further ahead than you guys with all due respect because up on the Chena we have the, the classified water system. Now I think it’s probably not too bad, it’s maybe a little bit heavy handed in how it restricts our non-residents, but as you guys probably know, the way it works is this, as a BC resident, I pay a little bit extra for a classified waters tag. You guys, non-residents, you’re gonna pay by the day. It’s not a huge amount of money, it’s like 20 bucks. But what really sucks is there’s certain waters that you can’t fish and there’s certain waters you can’t fish on certain days and there’s certain sections of certain waters that are preserved for the locals. Brian (1h 29m 30s): And essentially this is a first level attempt at, you know, controlling angling pressure. And I think that that could be taken a step further by exactly the same system you’re just talking about George, basically it’s not new, it’s, it’s how you manage big game hunters, how you manage, you know, obviously here in BC at least, you know, tho those opportunities are pretty limited. So when someone does get a good draw, it’s exciting for ’em, right? And they’re willing to put a lot of money and time into it. 3 (1h 29m 56s): I sometimes wonder If you limited, I mean basically you would be limiting the access or the resource a little bit if everyone had to get tags differently. And you know, I think about, I go, I think about Bighorn sheep hunting and like the Bighorn, the Wild Sheep Foundation banquet that just happened and how one of the tags went for 1.3 million. And then I know the Oregon tag went for like half a million for a governor’s tag. And I just think, man, if we somehow limited steelhead fishing, if, would those conservation numbers or would people start carrying more and start putting more money, bigger money into steelhead conservation? 3 (1h 30m 42s): I don’t know. But I think about that. George (1h 30m 44s): I don’t think this sort of thing applies to every river, but I think there are rivers where it becomes an alternative to that river being completely shut down based on, you know, federal and or state decisions and regulations. But it’s certainly, you know, it’s certainly worth a discussion around the campfire at the very least. And, and I think that Eastern Canadian thing that you speak of Brian across, you know, those provinces has really set the stage for how this could look and feel. And then you’ve got similar things in Scotland, Norway, Iceland, that can all be somewhat grabbed and gravitated to, but we’ve gotta find a way to not let it go away and to allow access and opportunity, but managing that pressure because pressure mortality comes from pressure, that’s where the mortality comes from. George (1h 31m 45s): It’s repetitive hooking, you know, D mess had, who we all know said to me a couple years ago over beers, he said, I I think some of these guys guide wise, you catch two steel in a day and you’re done, you’re done. You know, you, you, you can walk the bank and look for heart rocks, you let your buddy have at it, but you don’t need to hook, you know, three or nine or 13 of them particularly on some forms of gear because that the repetitiveness of that is where that mortality actually shows up is in that fish that was caught in the lower river, caught in the middle river, caught in the upper river. George (1h 32m 29s): You know, take the Clearwater in Idaho for example, you know, what goes on in March and April on the upper reaches of that, you know, would make the average steel header cringe, right? Versus what goes on in the fall and the early winter in the lower river. But there are definitely answers out there and it’s gonna take some bold people to step up and look at different ideas and make different decisions. But I certainly applaud what goes on in Eastern Canada because it looks pretty fair to me with great fisheries to back it up. Josh (1h 33m 4s): I think kind of one of the nice things about that is, and I could be wrong here, but about most of that Eastern Canada stuff is that it’s not privately held, right? Which is if you’re in like Norway, a lot of that fishing is privately held and they just charge you whatever they want. And so that’s a great thing about that Eastern Canada situation. Brian (1h 33m 25s): Yeah, that’s, that’s actually the origins of it. My understanding is previous to the Zack, it was really kind of like, you know, Norway where you had to have a lot of money and know the right people to get on the water. And then what the Z did is it created an opportunity for everybody and you know, there’s different, you know, different stretches are are more affordable than others. So there is, there is some variety there. But you know, it’s a conversation and I think, you know, to kind of wrap this up, I would say, you know, we can’t trust the fisheries managers to make sure that our, our recreation’s gonna persist. We really need to help them to have more tools in their toolbox to manage us because they don’t understand what we do. Brian (1h 34m 5s): And you know, this has been driven by the participants, it was the anglers that chose to keep fish in the water whenever possible. It was the anglers that squished their barbs. It was the anglers that quit fishing bait. It was the anglers that chose to only catch a couple fish and then, you know, call it a day education goes a lot further than regulations and you know, it’s, it’s us. It’s, it’s the people who participate, who educate those around us. And you know, your event this clave, what a great opportunity like you guys said to connect with with all of the, you know, top casters who are gonna be there, all of the guides, industry professionals, make a bunch of new friends, maybe come in a couple days early and do a guided trip with you guys. Heck, I wish I could go one day, we’ll do it for sure. Brian (1h 34m 47s): Now I got kids to pick up from school, but I gotta get one tip outta each of you guys and I wanna give you each the opportunity to let folks know how to connect with you. So what we’ll do is we’ll start with you Josh, then we’ll go to George and then we’ll finish up with Mia. What I’m looking for is your number one tip for a new spay caster who wants to set themself up for success. Not just for casting but for actually catching a fisher too. So the number one thing you’d give someone who’s a brand new caster and second, how to find you if they’re looking. So Josh, you’re up, Josh (1h 35m 19s): I’m gonna probably have two tips here. The first one is a kind of an obvious one is go with someone, a guide, an instructor that can just give you a big boost to get you moving forward. They show you how to hold the rod, how to string it up, do that whole thing. That’s the biggest step you can get right out of the gate. Go with someone that knows coming from snowboarding, fishing. When you surround yourself with people that are ahead of you, you gain up to them really quickly moving forward, striving to get better. That’s kind of my, the easy one. But really the biggest thing that I tell people all the time is time on the water. Josh (1h 36m 0s): Just keep going. Don’t give up. You have to have a positive attitude and just stick with it and whatever that looks like, steelhead don’t come easy. They’re a fish of a thousand casts, 10,000 casts. So the more cash you make, the better it’s gonna be. But to get ahold of me, Instagram is pretty easy at Josh Fly Fisher and it’s pretty easy to get pretty, I’m on there often enough, so, George (1h 36m 25s): Well, let’s see. It could be a ton of things that we could all throw out there, but I’ll throw out one that doesn’t get discussed all that often. Don’t fish angry, don’t fish mad. I think the spay rod of all fishing tools really creates a zen, a zen-like experience. And If you can do it in a confident, calm manner, I think it really matters because I think, I think Game Fish know the angry angler on the other end of that Rod, don’t fish, angry fish happy, be happy to be there. Get ahold of me through Instagram at state of spay on the fly fishing end of it, and at Mule Deer 16 on the hunting end. 3 (1h 37m 17s): So I just wanna echo what Josh and George said. I mean, you know, number one, get a lesson that is going to be a game changer and help you out tremendously and then also show up on the water with a positive attitude. Occasionally I see people that are just downers or they haven’t caught a fish, you know, in a couple years or a couple months and they just are, you know, just not happy or, oh, I’m not gonna catch a fish. And it’s that attitude that I swear fish can feel it. 3 (1h 37m 58s): So think of your rod as a conduit and that energy, that negative energy is traveling down that rod, traveling down the rod, the line and the fish can feel it. So show up with a positive attitude. And then how people can get ahold of me is either Instagram, little Creek Outfitters, you can find me there or email Sandy spay clave@gmail.com. Brian (1h 38m 24s): Awesome. Interesting you guys bring that up because in the episode with Tim and Matt, we talked about the Angry Steel header and also also with Richard and Adrian. So you know, it’s an attitude thing, isn’t it? And yeah, you know it is pretty wild how, how the Angry Steel header never finds a fish. You guys, it’s true. I really appreciate you coming on here today with me and I wish you all the success with the new event, or not the new event, but the new version of the old event. And I, I truly hope one day I’ll be able to get down there and yeah, thank you very much. Appreciate your time. Josh (1h 38m 57s): Hey, thank you Brian. Thanks guys. Thank you very much. 3 (1h 39m 0s): Thank you. This was really fun, so really appreciate it. Brian (1h 39m 5s): Well, that was a lot of fun, wasn’t it? I want to thank Mia, Josh and George for sharing their considerable experience and expertise with us today. I’m excited that they’re bringing back the clave and hope anyone listening will consider attending. Thank you to everyone for tuning into the show today. I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. You can find in the Bucket podcast online at www in the bucket podcast.com. If you’re on Instagram, you can follow us at in Theb Bucket podcast. You can reach me directly on email at info@skiaspay.com. Look for the next episode of In The Bucket Coming Your Way in the first week of May. Until then, I’m Brian Ska and once again, you’ve been listening to In The Bucket Podcast, brought to you by the wet Fly swing.