In the Bucket #22 | Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer & Marty Howard on Steelhead, Fly Design, and Fishing Culture

00;00;02;02 – 00;00;18;07 Dec Hogan A lot of it is for us. It’s satisfying. It keeps us close to our sport. We get to create things and the way we want to see them. And then when you talk about the beautiful flies, there are, you know, a trailer, trash flies, beautiful in its own right, Right. A rose by any other name. It smells just as sweet. 00;00;18;21 – 00;00;25;17 Dec Hogan But when you get into your personal expression and what feels good to you, and that’s what’s important in the end. 00;00;30;24 – 00;00;55;19 Brian Niska And welcome to In the Bucket, the podcast that explores the culture of space fishing in the Pacific Northwest, a spectacular land of mountains and wild rivers where every cast has a story to tell. I’m your host, Brian Niska. In today’s show, we’re going to be joined by three guests who share a passion for fly tying and steelhead fishing. 00;00;56;04 – 00;01;27;29 Brian Niska They’ve all made significant contributions through writing and instruction to shape our culture. I’m pleased to present a show with Dec Hogan, Jonathan Farmer and Marty Howard. Yes, we are back for another fun episode, so once again it’s time to get in the bucket. All right on, folks, We’re back and very excited today, joined by three absolute weapons in the steelhead world, I’ve got Deck Hogan, Jonathan Farmer and the legend Marty Howard with me today. 00;01;28;15 – 00;01;39;22 Brian Niska Deck, why don’t you take a moment to tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, but, you know, if they’ve listened to the show before, they’ve they heard you on a previous episode and obviously you need no introduction. So I’m just talking for no reason here. You go ahead, my man. 00;01;40;04 – 00;02;04;13 Dec Hogan Oh, hey, Doc Hogan right here. And happy to be here again with my two amigos. Three amigos, and haven’t really spent a whole bunch of time with Jonathan either. There’s some couple phone conversations and some text exchange, but it’s good to see you. And then Marty. Hey, he’s old. He’s old family. We were yakking it up on the phone this morning just because so. 00;02;05;09 – 00;02;35;10 Dec Hogan Yeah, man. Been at this for close to 40 years now and just still loving every minute when I teach my clinics for casting, I tell everybody I’m just as passionate today as I was 40 years ago when I first got bitten by the Steelhead bug. So here we are. Thanks for having us. Yeah, I’m Jonathan Farmer, designer and self-employed via the like them custom flies blood enthusiast and I tied a lot of learned a lot from the men that we’re here carrying. 00;02;35;10 – 00;03;00;10 Jonathan Farmer Well today the deck as he stated from South and then and phone calls and Marty did all of the graphic design for my book I have both of them to thank for that that I’ll be in touch with Marty. If Marty did. Unbelievable job better than I could ever hope for. So, yeah, how about I have a lot to be thankful for these two men and their contributions to the industry. 00;03;00;10 – 00;03;04;22 Dec Hogan Um, yeah, I’ve learned a lot from them that point. Have my own style. 00;03;04;22 – 00;03;32;25 Marty Howard But first of all, I want to thank Brian for having me on. The three of us on actually for an opportunity to discuss some of the things that we have in common. Marty Howard and I live in Utah. Kind of an odd thing to say is as far as still heading goes, but I do get around the still home country actually every year, highly devoted to the chase of that beautiful animal. 00;03;33;16 – 00;04;10;11 Jonathan Farmer A lot of people don’t realize this, but Dick is my brother in law. He’s married to my sister and connected to Jonathan through ocean Books. And actually, the three of us have that all in common together as far as being authors and having books and doing that part in the industry. But I’ve been, you know, actually fly fishing for many, many years and I’ve been a guide and owned a fly shop and and I build bamboo fly rods and and obviously really enjoy time flies. 00;04;10;11 – 00;04;34;21 Jonathan Farmer And that’s been a big part of my life for never. But, you know, as far as introductions go, it’s it’s it’s just a common bond between all of us. You know, the fly brings us together. And that’s what our books are about. And hopefully we’ll be able to have a fun discussion about how it all came together. 00;04;35;08 – 00;04;56;06 Brian Niska Yeah, you bet. So, you know, Jonathan, I’ve kind of been watching your stuff from afar for a while. And, you know, the thing that strikes strikes me is when I think of, you know, the flies I’ve seen, you know, associated with Jack and Marty, there’s definitely a real traditional style there and almost to the sense where to pretty to fish in some cases. 00;04;56;15 – 00;05;18;22 Brian Niska Your flies are gorgeous, too. But but you’re a real innovative fly tire, you know, especially those dry flies, those real big foamy, bushy things that that you’re tying up. And we use those very similar flights here on the skeena on the main stem, where a lot of folks are real hesitant to fish a dry fly and and having that portion of the fly that sort of rides in the in the surface or slightly below really works to our advantage. 00;05;18;22 – 00;05;23;14 Brian Niska Can we talk a little bit about how you know, how you how you came up with that idea? What inspired you? 00;05;23;29 – 00;05;54;01 Dec Hogan That was a fly that I came up with upon the quest from years ago. And, you know, I’ve gotten requests to design flies throughout the years that I may not necessarily fish, but I have had the opportunity to have other people test them before I put them out to the world. And as I’ve heard Marty say for me, I don’t know how many times throughout the many hours with on the phone, you’ll have your car keys. 00;05;54;01 – 00;06;23;25 Dec Hogan So, you know, I just kind of look at why I designed in general something that as a natural profile and and most swim correctly and track correctly as far as the wake and skate, I think that’s what you’re referring to, that flight. Yeah. It’s kind of tend to me by request with a skating fly that had a trailer hook and that fair amount of foam and still that’s what I came up with. 00;06;24;20 – 00;06;50;28 Dec Hogan It’s gone through a flight change over the years to make it a little bit easier for me to tie at volume and the initial one with an absolute nightmare. As much as I enjoyed trying Nightmares of Flies like some of these two gentlemen pattern, I don’t necessarily enjoy doing that on a daily basis all day long. So that’s kind of how that’s why I came about. 00;06;50;28 – 00;07;19;05 Dec Hogan I’d never envisioned it being this or rainbow trout in the winter in Georgia, though a good friend of mine, John McCloskey, he asked that. Yeah, for a whole bunch of them one winter and ended up skating up a whole bunch of rambles on was in Georgia. But yes, it’s in a pond by the just came about just through you know the mind’s eye like most other fly designers. 00;07;19;21 – 00;07;20;03 Marty Howard Awesome. 00;07;20;20 – 00;07;46;15 Jonathan Farmer I’ve got I’ve got to add something that when he said you know that I am always saying that I still had all your car That isn’t my quote That’s actually a John Hazel quote that I that I’ve lived with for ever since he said that to me. And it happened back in the early nineties and when I was just first starting to fish to to shoot and all worried about what fly to tie and what was going to work. 00;07;46;15 – 00;08;20;03 Jonathan Farmer And, and back then I would tie up hundreds of flies, all different styles and all different colors and, and I’d get to the river and I’d ask John, I said, What fly should I use? And he was kind of funny about it. He’d put his hand over my fly box and kind of wave it a little bit and close his eyes and point to something and, you know, it was a little discerning, you know, just like I tried all these flies and come on, give me a break here. 00;08;20;03 – 00;08;24;15 Jonathan Farmer And and that’s when he said, Marty, you still have to let your khaki. 00;08;25;09 – 00;08;26;01 Marty Howard And. 00;08;26;22 – 00;08;33;02 Jonathan Farmer You know, so I kind of twisted my whole idea on fly design from then on. And it became more. 00;08;33;02 – 00;08;33;15 Marty Howard About. 00;08;34;10 – 00;08;41;15 Jonathan Farmer Not the fly, but how the fly is presented and how the fly works when it’s in the water. 00;08;42;04 – 00;08;58;07 Brian Niska Well, I mean, I’ve been looking through your Instagram, Marty, and, you know, some of the pictures of your fly boxes. They’re absolutely gorgeous. And, you know, I think as a guide, it’s really important for me to like what my client has on the end of their line. But it’s more important for the client to love what they have on the end of their line. 00;08;58;07 – 00;09;20;03 Brian Niska And I’m with you. I don’t know if I don’t know if the fish cares as much as we do. Yesterday, I recorded an episode with one of our guides, Adrian Cuomo, and a frequent guest of ours, Eric Leininger. And you guys I think, must know Eric and Eric’s a real you know, he’s a real opinionated guy. And since he quit drinking, since he quit drinking, he’s kind of got this kind of spiritual thing. 00;09;20;03 – 00;09;35;28 Brian Niska And he’s he called me out of the blue one day and maybe called you as well, but he called me out of the blue one day and said, Brian, I think I’m a charlatan. I don’t think anything matters. Still had I don’t think the fly matters at all. So we had a bit of a chat yesterday about does the fly matter? 00;09;35;28 – 00;09;50;06 Brian Niska And I don’t know. I mean, it’s there’s certain colors that eye certain combos in particular I really believe in. But but yeah, once again you know it’s got to be a pretty look and fly otherwise I’m not interested deck you tie some beautiful stuff you fish some beautiful stuff what’s your thoughts. 00;09;51;02 – 00;10;01;01 Dec Hogan First on back to the car key thing and so intriguing And then I took it a step further and said you could not those khakis right to the end of your fly line. 00;10;01;01 – 00;10;01;17 Marty Howard Exactly. 00;10;02;06 – 00;10;26;10 Dec Hogan My thoughts are just in. I just did an article for that Swing the Fly anthology, and I opened it by saying, I think I’m doing the fact of the Fly is the least important, most important part of your setup. You have to have one, you know, That’s the important part about the fly to me for the fish. Nothing in the river goes like this, and just the fish is vulnerably across. 00;10;26;11 – 00;10;47;25 Dec Hogan If people ever watch the fly from above, you kind of all look the same. If they’re on a good slow swing to me, then the rest of it. Yes, of course we have to. We have to fish within parameters for our own confidence and what we like. And I bet if you line up 20 of us, veteran steelhead is where we’re going to have a common theme in that purple black peak and orange. 00;10;48;05 – 00;11;05;22 Dec Hogan You know, somewhere in there we’re going to have those colors. Maybe it goes in blue. And as these two gentlemen and I’m sure you do, I don’t know about your fly tie and Brian, but I’m sure you’re into it as well. A lot of it is for us. It’s it’s satisfying. It keeps us close to our sport. We get to create things and the way we want to see them. 00;11;06;05 – 00;11;25;29 Dec Hogan And then when you talk about you know, beautiful flies, there are, you know, a trailer, trash flies, beautiful in its own right, Right. A rose by any other name. It smells just as sweet. But when you get into your personal expression and what feels good to you, and that’s what’s important in the end. So. And I wanted to compliment you, Jonathan. 00;11;25;29 – 00;11;47;00 Dec Hogan I’ve been, you know, Marty gets compliments from me every day. So old news and I just did it, you know, keep them going. Both of these guys are fantastic fly tires and do it a lot more than I do these days. When I do it, I you know, it’s like riding a bike. I’m still I think, oh, I’m going to be rusty when I sit down the time and you know what? 00;11;47;00 – 00;12;14;22 Dec Hogan I’m not I’ve done it enough that I can sit down and just feel comfortable. But I know Jonathan and Marty are kind of habitual compulsive tires. And I know, you know, Jonathan does it for a living, but I also know that he is a compulsive tire. But your flies are beautiful. I, you know, first seeing your stuff, I knew that all the Marabou and Choudary kind of, for lack of a better term, that the meat and potatoes stuff I always thought was great. 00;12;14;22 – 00;12;44;14 Dec Hogan But then when you sent me that gadget Miss. Wow. And now I’ve been watching you time. Marty’s full dress. Steelhead flies. Fantastic, amigo. Absolutely wonderful. Yeah. So thank you. Yeah, I have one studying in the visor right now that got parrot for body shackle. The wing nightmare. I still have a dream, but I’m afraid to. Your your Instagram handle is a nightmare. 00;12;44;14 – 00;13;23;27 Dec Hogan Custom flies. I have you too, largely to thank for the more difficult, challenging stuff that I do over the years. I don’t typically tie other people’s patterns, especially if they’re mass produced or if another custom tire has an original pattern or something like that. I don’t tend to do this. The client I reached out to both of you out of respect them and asked you several years ago on this how our relationship has started and if you minded if I did the audio book for a client and the response I got was very kind. 00;13;24;13 – 00;13;53;18 Dec Hogan And then as I become more confident sometimes that without warrant, but as I become more competent, decided to take on some more challenging stuff to keep myself sharp and not compose them. But yeah, to both of you all four point, I wholeheartedly agree that the fly that we choose out of our box is not because it’s an air quote, proven pattern, but it’s something that we instill competence then and that we want. 00;13;53;25 – 00;14;17;19 Dec Hogan I choose flies based on my mood at the time, you know, and sometimes that mood might be something that more might correct me for saying this, but more modern or whatever. But there are times that I want to fish or classic fly on on a traditional cloth. And that’s what I do. And I think color may have something to do with that. 00;14;17;19 – 00;14;46;16 Dec Hogan Given any particular water clarity. My home river has the bluish grayish hue to a lot of the times, but started fishing a lot more red, orange and yellow and red and purple. If I want something a little bit darker and good brightening as well. But yeah, that’s kind of my thought on all that. And I really then I’m not two to each others one but I’m really happy all the thing, the challenging me is that wide tire that’s funny I have the same thoughts sometimes. 00;14;47;00 – 00;14;55;11 Dec Hogan I have a tide in a couple of days and the person is going to be a dumpster fire and it’s not legal. 00;14;55;11 – 00;15;00;03 Jonathan Farmer You’re saying just to add to and then we can move on to something funner. But. 00;15;00;28 – 00;15;01;08 Marty Howard You know. 00;15;01;16 – 00;15;21;12 Jonathan Farmer The thing about the fly doesn’t matter. The fly doesn’t matter to me as long as I’ve tried it. And I think that’s where the confidence factor comes in. When I try to fly, I talk with purpose and and I try to add a balance to the fly that that’s going to produce the effect that I want when it’s in the river. 00;15;21;12 – 00;15;46;17 Jonathan Farmer So the fly does matter to me. And I will fish other people’s flies rarely. But you know, I have to it or I’ve found confidence in the flies that I’ve tried. And the reason that I that confidence is because they’re designed for different types of water, different types of water temperature, different things that are happening as far as water conditions and all that kind of stuff. 00;15;46;17 – 00;16;13;10 Jonathan Farmer So the fly kind of matters. You know, I’m not going to fish a big, gigantic leech on the Deschutes in August. I’m going to fish small, more summer iron if on a three or maybe even a five sized hook, you know, So that matters a little bit. But once you’re there, you know, as far as you know, you put a green buck skirt gone. 00;16;13;22 – 00;16;14;08 Marty Howard Or. 00;16;14;24 – 00;16;21;03 Jonathan Farmer Purple Peril and you’re probably going to catch the same fish with the same swing. 00;16;21;20 – 00;16;43;03 Dec Hogan I have a question for Marty, and I have a sneaking suspicion that I already know the answer, but many out there may not. And when it comes to choosing a larger applied, for instance, was what might be those water temperatures are what’s kind of your guide in regard to water temperature versus size and and these and. 00;16;43;21 – 00;17;12;07 Jonathan Farmer Well I still believe in two fish, a winter fish and a summer fish. And, you know, I fish different flies for both fish. If I’m fish in the Skagit in the middle of April, it’s going to be a different fly than when I’d be fishing for a summer fish on the shoot in August size wise and and so but if the summer fish because I target the summer fish more than I do the winter fish, the summer fish, it is a water temperature thing for me. 00;17;12;20 – 00;17;46;26 Jonathan Farmer The warmer the water, the smaller the fly and the closer to the surface. Efficient. As the water temps start to drop, I start to fish larger flies and even to the point where I’m fish and stuff that I would might even fish during the winter. So, you know, it’s a water temperature thing for me, even even if I’m on the ronde, if the water tanks on the rod I’ll stop fish and my fives and threes and, and put on a 1.5 and get it a little bit deeper so you know just it’s just water conditions. 00;17;46;26 – 00;17;50;09 Jonathan Farmer It’s all about water conditions. 00;17;50;09 – 00;18;17;09 Speaker 5 Stone flying nets, handcrafts, wooden landing nets, fly boxes and real seats in Little Rock, Arkansas, using premium hardwoods and barrels sourced from landowners across the United States. Every piece is built by hand, combining traditional craftsmanship with the durability anglers need on the water. What makes don’t fly different is the attention to detail. You can customize your net with your choice of wood and even add personal engraving to create something that’s truly unique. 00;18;17;18 – 00;18;38;15 Speaker 5 And these aren’t just pieces of gear. They’re the kind of tools that become part of your fishing story and stay with you for a lifetime. You can check in with stone fly nets right now, just head over to stone fly Netcom. Check them out right now and get started today. When it comes to high quality flies that truly elevate your fly fishing game, Drift hokum is the trusted source you need. 00;18;38;15 – 00;18;57;15 Speaker 5 I then using drift hooks, expertly selected flies for a while now and they never disappoint. Plus, they stand behind their products with a money back guarantee. Are you ready to upgrade your fly box? Head over to drift, hook ecom today and use the code switching at checkout to get 15% off your first order. That’s drift took D.R. i f t h. 00;18;57;16 – 00;19;03;10 Speaker 5 Okay, Dotcom. Don’t miss out, Marty. 00;19;03;10 – 00;19;22;26 Brian Niska I’m looking at a picture of a of a fly tied by Jonathan. It’s one of your patterns. It’s called an October bright and man this looking at this fly reminds me of being on the Thompson in October because this is exactly the type of bug that would give me confidence in that scenario. It’s obviously unfortunate that that’s not something that’s currently going on. 00;19;23;09 – 00;19;26;19 Brian Niska But yeah, what a beautiful tie, Jonathan, and a great pattern. 00;19;27;05 – 00;19;53;03 Dec Hogan I was going to ask you about that. Might I say like on Instagram, for instance, whenever I see any of our stuff, I save it and I humbly and proudly say that I have over the years many, many, many gadget Miss Mahoney and coast oranges that people have tied, which is always flattering and wonderful. But you know what is right there is your October bright. 00;19;53;07 – 00;20;06;29 Dec Hogan There’s a ton of those. I’m always saving those. And one of these days I’ll look through and really get to kind of group them all together. That and your red wing daddy and the swing chef. There’s a ton of those. Pretty cool. 00;20;07;14 – 00;20;08;00 Marty Howard Excellent. 00;20;08;05 – 00;20;32;02 Brian Niska Well, let’s. Let’s talk fishing. I mean, flies are great. And you guys did ask me about fly tying, and I got to come clean. It’s been a solid decade since I’ve tie to fly. It used to be a big part of my life, and I can’t give you a good explanation on how I quit. I think it might have had something to do with having kids and just the peripheral kind of chaos and mess that goes with fly tying and the kids wanting to participate. 00;20;32;02 – 00;20;47;22 Brian Niska I know I’m going to go back to it, but what gives me a lot of anxiety when I think about going back to fly tying is my vision has deteriorated fierce. You guys have experienced this. Are you using any type of special eyes set up to see these things that you’re tying? 00;20;48;00 – 00;20;48;21 Dec Hogan Go Marty. 00;20;50;18 – 00;20;50;27 Marty Howard Part. 00;20;51;07 – 00;20;51;24 Dec Hogan I use. 00;20;51;24 – 00;20;53;15 Jonathan Farmer Welding welding. 00;20;53;15 – 00;20;54;09 Dec Hogan Visor that. 00;20;54;09 – 00;20;54;24 Jonathan Farmer They use. 00;20;54;24 – 00;20;56;25 Marty Howard For an arm fix or someone. 00;20;57;25 – 00;21;10;06 Jonathan Farmer Microchips full on magnification. But for me it’s more about light than it is magnification. If I have to have a really good light and then just cheaters work for me. 00;21;10;06 – 00;21;10;26 Marty Howard Okay. Yeah. 00;21;11;14 – 00;21;28;21 Dec Hogan And then I, I have stronger glasses for when I tie reading glasses words that sort these bs. I have just so I can see the damn screen right now. And then tons of light and then getting back to having done it for so long, I find that I but I feel. 00;21;30;07 – 00;21;30;13 Marty Howard I. 00;21;30;13 – 00;21;59;20 Dec Hogan Did that podcast with April Vokey where I actually tied a fly was a fly tying session and my light was horrible. And I’m talking about I said, I can’t see this thing. And it turned out okay, but Marty and I did that. But I know you want to talk about fishing, but we did that book and it made us better tires because when we were in there with the macro lens at a high, high level where you can count not only the thread, but every tiny little fracture in the thread with a little wisp of thread hanging, you could see all of that. 00;22;00;08 – 00;22;16;21 Dec Hogan And when you started seeing your flies that close, it was rather enlightening. Again, the fish don’t care and I can show you a beautiful fly that that might be you might not see under a macro lens like that with all that good light and close up and you’ll think it’s great. But then when you get it in tight, you agree, Marty? 00;22;17;04 – 00;22;31;26 Jonathan Farmer Yeah. Oh, yeah, most definitely. That’s when it all started for me. I posted my first fly on space pages 20 years ago, whenever it was maybe longer, and my wife said, You’re going to have to get better at timing. 00;22;32;06 – 00;22;32;20 Marty Howard If you’re going. 00;22;32;20 – 00;22;48;18 Dec Hogan To use that camera and this hardening after that, you know, you look at something that you think is really well done to really look at it, you know, under three magnification pilot gown, that’s really more of my thanks. That is great. But I don’t. 00;22;50;22 – 00;22;51;04 Marty Howard That. 00;22;51;10 – 00;22;52;06 Dec Hogan That’ll catch them. 00;22;53;14 – 00;22;58;01 Brian Niska What do you guys think of message boards like spare pages? Do you participate in those discussions? 00;22;58;16 – 00;23;20;07 Dec Hogan I don’t, however, I may be the most recent visitor out of the group to it in that I went and looked at one of Marty’s supplies just yesterday on there, though I’ve never participated in any discussions or posted anything, I’ve most certainly gone visited that I know Marty posted the box. Well, I’ll let them take over. Oh I just. 00;23;20;07 – 00;23;44;03 Jonathan Farmer Made I haven’t done much was five pages. What happened? And it’s kind of silly but they, they changed hands and it got hard to log in and it just found it easier to be on Facebook and Instagram. And and so I kind of migrated away from spray pages, but I still go to spray pages at least once a month or twice a month to see what’s going on, though I don’t participate. 00;23;44;20 – 00;24;13;18 Dec Hogan Same thing years ago. And Dana ran spray pages and it was there was a lot more kind of, if you will, who’s who. And my friends and people I know and talk a lot on, I would look about and see things, but it seemed like whenever I made a comment, it seemed like it would end the thread. So I stopped mean to do that and I’m super polite and neutral, but I would get on there with something intrigued me enough to comment. 00;24;13;18 – 00;24;18;04 Dec Hogan It just kind of thread stopper. So whatever that means. 00;24;18;04 – 00;24;40;00 Brian Niska This thread stopper would be a great name for someone on their thread stopper. I’ll tell you, the reason I ask is, you know, the last time you were on the show, we had a I think, a great discussion about fishing literature, fly fishing literature that it influenced you. And you had Scott told a wonderful story about reading each other, Hake Brown on the side of the River. 00;24;40;16 – 00;25;03;29 Brian Niska And I’ve reiterated this story to people a few times because to me it was one of two or three great moments in that show. One of the other, by the way, is you talking about meeting Bill McMillan. But, you know, books stood the test of time. Now they’ve changed a bit, right? You talking about the quality of the photos and everything and but the reality of the situation is what you guys started out. 00;25;04;06 – 00;25;21;11 Brian Niska If you wanted to learn more about fly tying, you really had to put a lot of work and you really needed to find your community. You really needed to try and find a mentor. And now it’s available, widespread to everyone. And what I notice is, you know what I see the guest flies coming in and I see the flies. 00;25;21;11 – 00;25;40;22 Brian Niska My guides are tying what I see the flies that new tires are tying. The learning curve is so darned fast, though, and everybody’s you can always see little bits of influence from different tires along the way. You know, I think books are especially important because once again, they stand the test of time, you know, essentially the historians of the past time. 00;25;41;05 – 00;26;00;11 Brian Niska But, you know, how important is the Internet, do you think, these days when it comes to the culture? Right. And passing along? You know, Dick, you’re incredibly generous with your time. I know this about you. You’re not a you’re not a guy who would want to help someone out. And I think the fly time community has a lot of individuals like that. 00;26;00;11 – 00;26;28;27 Brian Niska I think fly fishing does you know, George stands out as a guy like that. You know, so many people have told me stories about how George Kirk helped them out, connected them with jobs, and, you know, answered their questions with no gain of his own. You know, my concern a little bit with when we go online and I’m not picking on spare pages in particular, there’s just a broad 10,000 foot kind of observation is sometimes the online world can be a little bit toxic in the sense that it lacks the accountability. 00;26;29;05 – 00;26;47;19 Brian Niska So there’s value and, you know, you go in there and learn learned stuff. But, you know, the funny thing to me is there you are commenting on on Facebook giving away your knowledge for free in some Joe bag donuts. He’d just picked up a fly rod three days ago, you know, has got the exact same amount of voice as you do in a scenario like that. 00;26;47;19 – 00;26;48;22 Brian Niska It’s kind of wild, right? 00;26;49;04 – 00;27;10;11 Dec Hogan Yeah. But I always talk about, you know, a young guy in Texas in the in the comfort of his I den behind that keyboard, you know, just saying whatever whatever he wants in whatever, who he can be, the man, you know, we see right through it. But I totally agree with you. And that’s just the nature of the internet and people seeing saves and not having to be accountable, as you say. 00;27;10;22 – 00;27;19;12 Dec Hogan And for me, back to this baby bedroom, I am always nice and careful about what I say, but I’ll just say it. I go on the pages occasionally for a good pucker. 00;27;23;16 – 00;27;27;13 Marty Howard And the Yeah. 00;27;27;17 – 00;28;09;22 Dec Hogan And like Marty, I want to see what’s going on. And because I am a teacher and instructor, I do like to see what people are talking about. But it’s amazing how many guys just have this opinion based on what I do spend a lot of time on Instagram, Facebook, not so much, although I’ll post there, but a lot of time on Instagram because it’s how I, I largely broaden my business and I can I’ll wholeheartedly agree with Jack on the Internet and social media has created a toxic environment that not only do you have, you know, third day experts, but one of the things that really kind of irks me is if this has happened 00;28;09;22 – 00;28;16;21 Dec Hogan to me, I can’t tell you how many times as opposed to fly. And then someone will just comment, What’s the recipe? 00;28;16;29 – 00;28;18;23 Marty Howard Oh, yeah, flying. 00;28;18;23 – 00;28;43;02 Dec Hogan Do you understand how long it takes to sit down and write out every single one of the things and steps that are not fly? Marty has done that so kindly on on Sunday pages. I read last night one of his posts on the beautiful married wing y Blue Guide, and you know, that’s one thing that does kind of work me is when someone like, what’s the recipe? 00;28;43;23 – 00;29;03;27 Dec Hogan If you’re going to ask, at least be polite about it. That’s just kind of how I brought up. I grew up in the South, though. Know if you want something, be nice when you ask. But yeah, you know, I think I’ve learned a lot from guys like these two men and George and a whole lot of other people in the industry that we shouldn’t gatekeeping. 00;29;04;12 – 00;29;27;19 Dec Hogan You know, we shouldn’t there shouldn’t be secret. I mean, you might have your own mold technique that you share with people that are close to you. But gatekeeping and and try and keeping a secret doesn’t help anybody and it doesn’t help our sport at all. You know, one thing that I’m a big advocate for is handling the amazing push that that we all have in common, what with great care. 00;29;27;19 – 00;29;58;25 Dec Hogan Love Pablo. But one thing that I advocate most or that’s that my put my mark on you know over the years. But yeah definitely agree that those created up there my topic Obama though we can all be changed in that yeah and there’s a lot of good as well right I mean Oh wholeheartedly great you’re talking about the sharing and and Brian you talk about so many people have access to you know that learning curve information and same is casting. 00;29;59;06 – 00;30;20;21 Dec Hogan There was a time when there was not a ton of great fly tires that we knew of and there was not a ton of great. Casper’s Well, there’s both now. There’s a lot of really fantastic fly tires, and maybe they’ve been around. We get to see them now and they are sharing. But I remember Trey comes book steelhead fly fishing and flies the paperback one that had the wonderful back chapter on all the fly patterns. 00;30;21;02 – 00;30;34;05 Dec Hogan And it has It was the first time I’d seen that it said glass of flies that have influenced all of us. And I remember as a very young man talk about not having tutorials. I would look at those pictures of little tiny pictures on that plate. 00;30;34;16 – 00;30;35;04 Marty Howard And. 00;30;35;04 – 00;30;46;27 Dec Hogan Trying to tie an orange heron, and there’s a bunch of them, but it’s all ducks Bay and the killer, you know, all those try and just from a photograph and I still have some of them and they’re horrendous. They’re horrible, but I love them. 00;30;47;20 – 00;30;56;01 Jonathan Farmer You know, as far as the Internet goes, the Internet is one of the most dangerous things on the planet, because if you if you get into the Internet and you take it personally. 00;30;56;20 – 00;30;57;28 Dec Hogan You’re going to hate life. 00;30;58;06 – 00;31;23;28 Jonathan Farmer Because you know, people are going to disagree with you. People are going to say things that you know aren’t true. People are going to do things that can definitely interrupt any positive conversation at all. There’s haters out there, just people that just it doesn’t matter what you do. You could post one of the most beautiful flies on the planet or one of the most perfect casts, and someone’s going to say something derogatory because they have to. 00;31;23;28 – 00;31;46;22 Jonathan Farmer It’s just in the makeup of that individual. And the thing that if if the Internet, when it came out, when I was in my twenties, I don’t think I would be fly fishing because everybody would hate me, because, you know, what I say is right? And if you say something contrary, then then you’re wrong. And, you know, I think ego has a big thing to do with it. 00;31;46;22 – 00;32;10;07 Jonathan Farmer And I think the older you get, the softer your ego becomes and you start to realize that, you know, you’re going to you’re going to reach people that want the information that you want and that you’re giving, and that’s all that matters. And you just disregard the haters. And I don’t spend I don’t even know how to run Instagram and I can barely operate Facebook. 00;32;10;26 – 00;32;33;19 Jonathan Farmer And that’s where I go and post fliers and do things. But, you know, if you want to try to conquer the world and make everything right, you’re not going to you’re not going to do it on the Internet. But, you know, and I think that’s one thing when it comes to writing books, when you when you write a book, no one can really question your book and your book. 00;32;34;06 – 00;32;58;07 Jonathan Farmer And DEC always, always said that as we got into this publishing thing that, you know, the person that enjoys holding something and flipping pages is the person that we really want to target as far as what we’re creating and what we’re doing. So yeah, the Internet’s a great thing if you use it right, but you’ve got to be very careful. 00;32;58;07 – 00;32;59;14 Jonathan Farmer And I’m still a. 00;32;59;14 – 00;33;00;12 Dec Hogan Big book fan. 00;33;01;08 – 00;33;23;15 Brian Niska I tell you, one of the things I’ve tried to do at the Lodge and I’m trying to do it, you know, organically over time, is is just build up a nice library because, you know, you still had fish. You deal with, you know, days when the river’s not right and you don’t get out there. And to be able to pull up a book and sit on the couch next to the fire and it definitely scratches the itch on a day that you can’t actually get out there and make some cash. 00;33;23;15 – 00;33;28;01 Brian Niska So and it’s fun to it’s fun to see what books people reach for now. 00;33;28;12 – 00;33;32;17 Dec Hogan Can’t wait to see them and be up there. We bought our plane tickets yesterday. 00;33;32;17 – 00;33;48;20 Brian Niska Oh, hey, we’re really excited to have you and Amy up here, so that’s going to be great. You know, I dec I was I was talking to a buddy of mine who is going to be up there around the same time or up with us, Scott Baker. McGarvey He’s been on the show before. I know. And a friend of mine. 00;33;48;22 – 00;33;56;10 Brian Niska Yeah. Yeah. And he was, he was really excited that there might be a chance that you guys would be here at the same time if even for a night or two. So. Nice. 00;33;56;10 – 00;34;01;13 Dec Hogan Oh that’s, that’s great. That’s great to hear. Yeah. Yeah. I look forward to seeing him in a long time. 00;34;01;13 – 00;34;21;18 Brian Niska So I want to go back to something Jonathan said. I think it’s really important and it was talking about fish handling and, you know, I’ve got to tie these two things together. Hopefully. So, you know, we talk about kind of online bullying or what have you. And I think of an incident I can’t remember if it was four years ago, five years ago, there was a young fella that posted a picture of a fish. 00;34;22;04 – 00;34;37;12 Brian Niska It wasn’t as close to the water as it should have been. Obviously, the handling wasn’t great, and I think he said it was a 15 pounder and it might have been ten. Right. So what do you think happened? A bunch of people jumped all over him. And here’s this this young guy who just started and he’s so proud. 00;34;37;12 – 00;35;03;00 Brian Niska It’s his first fish. And all these guys are just, you know, make him feel bad. And what a great teachable moment that was missed in that. Because when we talk about fish handling, I know in Washington you guys have an innovative regulation where you’re not allowed to take fish out of the water. Seems like a great idea. We’ve talked about it a bunch up here in B.C. and over time, I think I’ve shifted to this this headspace where I think that education is more important than regulation. 00;35;03;14 – 00;35;24;21 Brian Niska And I think that really quite organically over the last decade, we’ve seen improvements in fish handling because that’s the culture, that’s just what people are doing. The grip and grins are still there, but now the fish is half in the water, half out. So I think that, you know, folks like like you guys who are of influence to people, you know, you guys have really moved the needle on on fish handling. 00;35;24;27 – 00;35;46;04 Brian Niska And something that I personally have tried my best to persuade people is this this idea that not to be greedy and if you catch four fish, which one was the prettiest, Right. And what’s a good day? A good day is fishing. Fishing good water. Well, and the anticipation that something might happen. And these fish are too valuable to to want to, you know, catch a ton of them. 00;35;46;04 – 00;36;09;08 Brian Niska And, you know, when I think about the future of fisheries management, one of the concerns I have and I’m not trying to be an elitist fly guy, but I think it’s a very simple mathematical thing is if a guy fishes for days and lands one fish, that’s a lot of value there. If a guy goes out and catches 14 in a morning on a bed set up or whatever, you know, that’s that’s not quite the same. 00;36;09;08 – 00;36;25;08 Brian Niska And, you know, how do we how do we ensure that we can maintain access and opportunity and we don’t just end up in a situation where the managers, regardless of whether we’re talking in the states or here in Canada, just go, Oh, this is complicated. We don’t know exactly what to do. We’re just going to close the fishery, take away the anglers. 00;36;25;20 – 00;36;49;03 Brian Niska And I think the future of fisheries management, what we to strive for is a scenario where we understand the impacts associated with techniques in the way that anglers fish and you know, whether these are closed areas or closed over time or, you know, leading up to this final point of, you know, catch release limits, they do them some places it sounds like a good idea, but it’s going to be really hard to enforce. 00;36;49;15 – 00;37;01;10 Brian Niska So to me, this idea of a catch release limit really falls into this educational piece, trying to convince people culturally that, you know, it’s okay to catch less fish. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? 00;37;01;19 – 00;37;29;27 Dec Hogan I know I certainly do. In regard to the, you know, handling topic, I know that at times I have most certainly been guilty of probably not being the nicest person in the chat, but something that I’ve tried to work on is bars, education systems learned and after reading eat fish, Eat Fish web. That’s our Instagram handle. You know, I’ve learned a lot in regard to catch and release data. 00;37;29;27 – 00;37;53;18 Dec Hogan And so it’s important Ally I think about you know, my card always is if you’re going to let the fish out of water, imagine, you know, a quarter miles per hour with a gorilla chase that you understand as you cross the finish line. Somebody at rest gulp your head underwater as long as they can hold their breath. You know, because that thing is fighting for its life, not knowing that you were gonna release that and generally let the cat out of the water. 00;37;53;26 – 00;38;24;09 Dec Hogan My home fishery can all live steelhead out of the water, period, though their guide do. But yeah, as far as you know the the catch and release thing I think you know I’m I’m fortunate enough to have a home fishery where you can hook three or four big steelhead in the day if you’re facing a bear you could go out and catch 20 and I think what that boils down to is kind of a personal responsibility and mindset of I don’t need to catch every fish on the river. 00;38;24;29 – 00;38;51;28 Dec Hogan Three is plenty. The five can’t breathe. And I’ve had an amazing banner day and and I think when you’re watching a bobber and this isn’t an elitist point of view, I just think that you’re watching the bobber in the catch. It grasshopper fishing this kind of take away from the special feeling of the ocean if why or for me again on the leaders point of view just the personal ideology on I know people that’ll swing around and then they’ll go back through it. 00;38;51;28 – 00;39;26;20 Dec Hogan What would be that? Just a question. Why is catching a fish that important to you? You have to rely on my fallback or to me, not that I think it’s just a ship then in mindset for our fishery and how we fish them and what makes it special. But again, fish, how do you want to fish? And it’s not for me, Judge, It’s just a matter of do we really care about the health of our, our fisheries, wonky education and educate and new you we do big fish. 00;39;26;22 – 00;39;32;17 Dec Hogan You know, there’s there’s 150 different ways to catch a steelhead for say oh did that keep them wet thing. I always laugh. 00;39;33;06 – 00;39;33;13 Marty Howard Yeah. 00;39;33;26 – 00;39;40;04 Dec Hogan Can I keep them guessing. I think red fish brown chatter exempt from that because you let your banner out. 00;39;40;04 – 00;39;43;27 Marty Howard Everyone holds them way up all over. But gosh. 00;39;43;27 – 00;40;13;18 Dec Hogan It’s got to be in the water. I think education as regards to catch and release limits, that is obviously, you know, how do you how do you enforce that? That’s that has to be an education thing. And and I certainly have had some extreme banner days steelhead and just because I’ve done it for so much for so long and I’m sure all of you have the same, there comes a time where you’re like, okay, I’ve had a great week this morning, so I’m I’m done for the day. 00;40;14;13 – 00;40;32;08 Dec Hogan How many do you need? You know, the guy that catches, you know, 14 fish and that I got to give John Hazel credit for that. Even though I use that all the time. You would love that. Beat fish and daiquiri on 22 fish this morning. I’m like, yeah, tell me about number eight. But you that caught four in one week. 00;40;32;08 – 00;40;40;11 Dec Hogan You can tell me about every single one right? I can tell you about the four that I hooked on the by being three years ago every single detail of them. 00;40;40;12 – 00;40;43;06 Jonathan Farmer So go. I want fish where you guys are fishing. 00;40;43;29 – 00;40;48;09 Marty Howard Yeah. You know, I want to know if I had. 00;40;48;09 – 00;41;16;11 Jonathan Farmer 50 plus days fishing for an out of fish this year and I can count the number of hook ups on one hand. Hit bad water everywhere we go, everywhere I went. But that, you know that’s here on or there have had really good days as well. And you know, as far as handling fish go, I think the thing that that that happens with with the the handling of fish and actually the catching of fish is is where you’re at in your progression. 00;41;16;25 – 00;41;42;22 Jonathan Farmer If you’re brand new and you’re just starting to learn how to fish with a two handed rod and, you know, the whole the whole quest is just to get a hook up. You don’t care how many fish you catch and you just you just want to get a hook up. And then then as you progress and you start to learn and you understand the presentation and you’re fishing in the right water, you start to pick up a few more fish here and there, and then it becomes you want to catch as many as you can. 00;41;43;06 – 00;42;02;28 Jonathan Farmer And I don’t think you can take a beginner out of that mode. And it’d be really difficult because of the effort that they’re putting into the whole process. And then after you’ve gone through that, you know, things mellow out and you can step back and you can look at like, okay, what, what do I want out of this experience? 00;42;02;28 – 00;42;26;17 Jonathan Farmer So, you know, as far as talking about education, you know, we can teach people how to handle fish. So that fish has a better opportunity to survive after being caught, that’s not a big deal at all. And, you know, the hero shot now, at my point in my progression, the hero shot now is I look at him and just kind of giggle and say, you know, yeah, I was there once. 00;42;26;17 – 00;42;43;12 Jonathan Farmer I had a I had to have my pictures of my fish and I’ve got one of the best hero shots of my life two years ago on this gadget. Luckily, Dirk was there with his camera and someone. You know that that’s my whole thing. No one ever has a camera when I catch a fish, so I don’t get to take pictures anyway. 00;42;43;12 – 00;43;11;06 Jonathan Farmer But. But the whole progression thing is as is the thing. And I think it’d be hard to teach that to someone that’s just brand new, you know, just sit there and put limits on someone that can’t even cast yet. It’s something that that needs to be considered. But as as far as law goes or enforcement of rules, you know, I think maybe it has to be out there that there is a catch and release limit. 00;43;11;24 – 00;43;37;11 Jonathan Farmer And, you know, it’s self-imposed. And, you know, you’re you’re the one that is going to have to be honest about it. But, you know, it’s just a matter of where you’re at and how many fish you’ve got. And and like I got skunked, 16 days just on my last trip, went 16 days without a fish to hand. And and it doesn’t matter. 00;43;37;21 – 00;44;03;20 Jonathan Farmer It doesn’t, you know, it’s like I’m not going to sell all my gear on eBay because I had a bad trip. I’m going to continue to chase these fish. And every one that I catch is going to be a prize and something that I enjoy. But, you know, I think it’s depending on where you go, like, you know, I get to go to B.C next year, we’re planning a trip already and when I get up in B.C., it’s a different attitude because it’s a little different. 00;44;04;19 – 00;44;24;27 Jonathan Farmer It’s a totally different game up there because the opportunities are a little bit greater than they are down in the lower 48, where I’m chasing my summer. Still had you know, there may not not be. I think when I went on this last trip, there was only ten or 15,000 fish over the last dam and you know, you’re just expecting to hook one. 00;44;24;27 – 00;44;52;28 Jonathan Farmer So yeah, it’s as if the fish handling part of it is the most important thing to me is, is educating people on how to take care of these fish. You know, all of it, the whole, the whole process, every, every aspect that gives them the advantage of surviving the the catch. And then after that the number thing. Yeah, that’s going to be a hard thing to teach, just depending on where you are, you progression. 00;44;53;16 – 00;45;21;29 Dec Hogan You know, tomatoes point of going 16 days or eight days or ten days or, you know, two months without cluttering up. There’s, you know, I think I think that’s where the Internet as a whole, especially Instagram, can be very discouraging. The new anglers when they’re watching fish pictures from from other people. And is this comical? You know, these guys might be out every day. 00;45;21;29 – 00;45;44;21 Dec Hogan They might. They made look in a place that gives them ample opportunity to fish or they they are the typical that give them ample opportunity to fish so they get more opportunities as a whole. And when you see someone posting a lot of pictures of steelhead or whatever it is that you’re targeting and then you don’t catch them, it can be very discouraging. 00;45;44;21 – 00;46;15;20 Dec Hogan So I would encourage newer anglers, novice anglers or even, you know, those that are in that progression valve not take that to heart and just focus on your own journey is an angle because I know I’ve had plenty of zero fish days on my home or there’s that that does do the ample opportunity without bumping the either not in the right place at the right time or with that maybe scattered through the park or whatever it is. 00;46;16;02 – 00;46;24;11 Dec Hogan Yeah. Just don’t take the internet to heart when it comes to other people posting photos and just focus on your own journey. Is the 100. 00;46;24;23 – 00;46;50;16 Brian Niska One thought on this When we talk about reducing our impact, catching less fish is the natural result of that is people are going to find harder ways to catch fish and people are going to fish in a way that brings them greater enjoyment. You know, technology is a big part of all of our lives. You know, whether you’re a hockey player with a carbon fiber stick instead of a wood stick anymore or, you know, this gadget we talked about this yesterday on the show, it’s gadget line. 00;46;50;16 – 00;47;12;08 Brian Niska The sales market for that should be tagline a means to an end. Right? We’ve made it. We’ve made it really easy to get the fly to the fish. You know, we’ve got all sorts of advancements in technology. The lighter, quicker, faster, more sensitive, blah, blah, blah. Yet so many people enjoy fishing with bamboo and so many people enjoy old reels. 00;47;12;20 – 00;47;34;29 Brian Niska And when it comes to the tradition of fly fishing to be tapped into that, that’s not a numbers thing that’s catching these fish the way you want to do it. And when you move to that mindset of I don’t care if I get three, all of a sudden, I think you find yourself starting later fishing shorter days, fishing flies that maybe don’t look like lures in the water and and just fishing in a way that brings you joy. 00;47;34;29 – 00;47;42;15 Brian Niska And I think that that’s just something that’s going to happen organically. And, you know, we see it with our clientele, by the way. I see it with my guides. I see it all across. 00;47;42;28 – 00;48;07;08 Dec Hogan I think once we we we make the choice because this goes back when we were wee babes, we lads, you choose to swing flies exclusively. You’re already in that mindset. It Jonathan Even the people on the internet, the guys that I’m sure that those kids watching, looking at that stuff, they dream about it, but they know they’ve already chosen the hardest way to catch Steelhead. 00;48;07;20 – 00;48;27;05 Dec Hogan And getting back to that, the reality again, what Jonathan was saying, it looks like these guys catch fish every day. Even back in my glory days, I used to always joke about, you know, before we had the Internet, we had photo albums, right? And that people would look at my photo and, wow, you catch a lot of steelhead. 00;48;27;11 – 00;48;38;27 Dec Hogan I always talked about making a photo album that had a picture or just two pages blank, one page with two fish on it, another blank page. 00;48;39;13 – 00;48;41;16 Marty Howard You know, and. 00;48;41;22 – 00;49;08;03 Dec Hogan You go through this 50 page photo album and there’s really only 12 fish in there now that that is reality. Now, also about the Internet and fish handling. I think that again, we we that swing flies. We in general, I believe, inherently instinctively handle the fish fairly well. I agree with Marty and that learning curve and all that. 00;49;08;16 – 00;49;33;08 Dec Hogan But I do think that the importance of that photograph is where we fly fishing swing guys and gals. I can kind of run into trouble. And that’s, I think a case of the Internet is kind of rugged on those fish, even as we’re getting more educated because people want that picture for the Internet. They have to have it and watch them. 00;49;33;22 – 00;49;36;08 Dec Hogan And that’s where we run into trouble. So. 00;49;36;19 – 00;49;42;16 Brian Niska Yeah, I mean, there’s there’s that famous incident with that big kiss box fish and a well-known. 00;49;42;16 – 00;49;43;04 Marty Howard American. 00;49;44;05 – 00;50;08;11 Brian Niska Fishing brand. Yeah. And you know, that poor guy who I think was a fairly new angler the time he was when it came to light, that there was a whole bunch of other photos showing what really transpired. I think that’s a good watershed moment, if there is one. But, you know, like you said, you’ve taken lots of fish photos and it’s for us to say, hey, you know, that guy who just caught his first steelhead should just put it back in the water right away without a photo because it’s better for the fish. 00;50;08;11 – 00;50;14;15 Brian Niska That’s a tough one, because those photos, you know, it’s kind of like proof, I guess. So they could go and say, hey, look what I did. 00;50;14;25 – 00;50;35;29 Dec Hogan You know, Scott O’Donnell said it when we first together and during our early days, he said that Dory, grab, that’s your trophy. I’ll never forget that. That’s your trophy. I got to have it. And there’s a way to do it. And if I see a young guy or I’m guiding them, which I still do some guiding and they get their first steelhead, I will throw them in a headlock and take charge and make sure they get that photo. 00;50;35;29 – 00;50;51;09 Dec Hogan But I’m going to do it very carefully and I’m going to cut that fly off and stick it in their hat and say, Don’t fish that fly again, because 40 years later, I wish I had the first fly. You know, I got my first steelhead on. So, yeah, it’s super important. It’s your trophy. That’s what I tell my client. 00;50;51;20 – 00;51;17;28 Jonathan Farmer I’m not moving in my picture. It’s driving me insane. No, I saying, you know, the whole thing about the content on the Internet is, you know, is damaging to every aspect of life, not just catching a fish. And that’s one thing that you do need to definitely be careful of. And, you know, the Internet bully thing, there’s ways to be able to communicate to people that are abusing the resource. 00;51;17;28 – 00;51;23;23 Jonathan Farmer You know, you have to be extremely careful. But there’s ways to encourage people to do a little bit better job. 00;51;23;23 – 00;51;26;04 Marty Howard And I think. 00;51;26;04 – 00;51;52;28 Jonathan Farmer It’s self-healing right now. The hero shots, we had so much flak from so many different people. I don’t even have to say anything anymore. And, you know, so I think it’s it’s being observed by more than just us old people. The people are starting to understand how important the resources and I’m not just talking about still hurting. I’m talking about any outdoor resource because of the amount of crowd. 00;51;52;28 – 00;52;18;26 Jonathan Farmer I think college had one of the worst impacts on the outdoors than anything that’s ever happened in history. The parking lots where I fish overnight started to fill up where I used to have a stretch of water to myself or maybe to other people. Now there’s 20 to 30 cars in that lot. And and it’s changed the whole dynamic of the outdoor experience. 00;52;18;26 – 00;52;49;05 Jonathan Farmer So I think but I honestly believe people are starting to recognize that and starting to see the value in and ensuring that what they’re doing isn’t interrupting or causing any harm to the resource. But I think that’s one of those going back to the education thing, we need to educate every brand new person that wants to go outside about how critical it is that they take care of what they’re stepping into. 00;52;49;05 – 00;53;09;00 Jonathan Farmer You know, the litter that the litter that you find on the river as it stays and the total carp launch is as far as etiquette. It’s got, you know, etiquette as far as flushing those is one of the saddest things that I’ve ever seen. And, you know, so, yeah, we do have a responsibility as as the going out crowd. 00;53;09;00 – 00;53;34;11 Jonathan Farmer You know, I don’t have very many days left on this earth and know I want to try to do the best I can to ensure that the resource is usable and enjoyable and conservation. And, you know, that’s the whole key as far as getting involved in your local fly fishing club and and learning what it takes to really solve. 00;53;34;18 – 00;53;34;26 Marty Howard From. 00;53;34;26 – 00;53;36;20 Jonathan Farmer Our guard, our resource. 00;53;36;22 – 00;54;03;01 Speaker 5 We experience the waters of Bristol Bay at Togiak River Lodge, where fly fishing meets Alaska’s rugged beauty. This is the place to complete the Alaska Grand Slam with all five salmon species, rainbow trout, arctic char and more, where each day offers a new Alaskan adventure, you can visit Togiak Lodge dot com right now to start planning your Bristol Bay experience with Togiak River Lodge Golden Fly Shop. 00;54;03;01 – 00;54;26;21 Speaker 5 Isn’t your average fly shop. They have a 12 foot shark painted like a cutthroat, hovering over a huge selection of the best rods in the business, a massive assortment of tying materials and their famous steakhouse streamer display. And it’s the hub for a community of anglers who never stop tinkering with new ways to catch fish. Sometimes the conversation behind the counter includes what hatches are going off and what techniques are working best. 00;54;27;01 – 00;54;49;18 Speaker 5 Then, tales of destination fishing adventures sought after species are a good old congratulations. When a customer brings stories of finally connecting with that fish, they search for forever. With a growing online store and a budding YouTube channel, you’ll be able to follow along with their fun Antiques International adventures and helpful fly fishing tips. Goldfish shop where the community is hanging out even if they’re supposed to be working. 00;54;49;20 – 00;54;55;13 Speaker 5 That’s Golden Fly Shop dotcom. Check them out right now. 00;54;55;13 – 00;55;13;04 Brian Niska Marty. I think that’s really wise. And I want to say that there’s a funny thing as people get older, I think we all have a natural tendency to tell everybody things used to be better. You know, the good old days. And what we need to always keep in mind is that for some people these are the good old days. 00;55;13;16 – 00;55;31;16 Brian Niska And you know, well, Dec might think fondly to the best fishing he ever had a long time ago. Maybe his best fishing is going to be tomorrow. And if you can keep that mindset as a I think as a middle aged angler and older angler, I think that’s really important because the natural tendency and I see it all over the place is for people to say, Hey, you missed out things. 00;55;31;16 – 00;55;59;03 Brian Niska You used to be better and I want to go into this for one quick second. I had a conversation with a really well-known guide, someone who I respect quite a bit a week or two ago, and they were having a little bit of self regret on some of the promotion that they’d done because they felt, hey, you know, I’ve contributed to making the river busier through various film projects, and I know that that person had received a little bit of criticism from other folks saying, Hey, you know, what are you doing? 00;55;59;04 – 00;56;26;13 Brian Niska You know, you’re promoting such and such. And I said to them, look, I’ve seen your stuff. You’re promoting, you know, etiquette. You’re promoting fishing for the right reasons. People are going to fish regardless. And what you’re doing is you’re inspiring them to participate in, interact in the outdoors in a real in a real sustainable way. So I think you need to just stay the course and not let, as you say, the haters, you know, get you down because it’s a natural tendency. 00;56;26;13 – 00;56;33;04 Brian Niska So for you guys putting out books Deck, did you receive any pushback from people say, Oh, why are you talking about this river or that river? 00;56;33;12 – 00;56;57;16 Dec Hogan Yeah, So I would listen to you just now and agree with everything that I was thinking. And when our passion for Steelhead, when that came out, 2006, there was certainly some talk, you know, behind my back and that, well, you know, we DEC’s doing this, you know, we’ve got to fill the rivers with people and there wasn’t a ton of that, but I know that, that it happened and that’s always going to happen. 00;56;57;26 – 00;57;17;05 Dec Hogan And then I found solace in myself and that I did exactly what you were talking about in that I’m teaching being a steward of the river and the fish and everything that that entails and educating proper handling all of it. And and it’s really a good thing and. 00;57;17;22 – 00;57;18;03 Marty Howard Not to. 00;57;18;03 – 00;57;39;24 Dec Hogan Name names. And I’m not going to. But I remember years ago, a very prominent angler was so angry about anything that was published, and he was angry at every guide and promoting the river and told him one day at a very young age, I said, You know, if you had it your way, there would be no steelhead because a river wouldn’t have any friends. 00;57;39;24 – 00;57;43;03 Dec Hogan And the river needs friends. That makes sense. 00;57;43;16 – 00;57;43;26 Marty Howard Oh, yeah. 00;57;44;06 – 00;58;08;19 Dec Hogan Yeah. If he meet me, I mean, this gentleman said didn’t want anybody on the river want to all do themselves. We’re not going to work. So I learned some years ago one of my best friends and fishing companion the same ruse. The talk about him a lot in my book is the all them cigar smoking man For anybody who’s actually taken the time to read it. 00;58;08;19 – 00;58;32;28 Dec Hogan And he said to me years ago, there are no secrets on the road. And within here in Alaska, we have an abundance of rivers that are only accessible by plane. But if it’s on the road system, there aren’t any speaker. And so for anybody who get upset about people talking about rivers or places, you know, I get your spot. 00;58;33;02 – 00;59;13;21 Dec Hogan I do. I found a few spot that never seen anybody else fish and then people start to recognize there’s a fishing there, especially if you’re, you know, recognizable, you know, person. And they had this three or four months to catch a fish there. The next thing you know that’s not your they want I get the the specific locations of photos argument however when it comes to a generic mention of a particular river or them for anybody who who gets their feathers ruffled over that or intended there are no secrets on the road system if you can drive to it, people know about it. 00;59;13;27 – 00;59;34;03 Dec Hogan And, you know, that’s that’s just kind of a I wouldn’t say defensive of anybody to talk about where this but it’s certainly a point in in that you know they’re not hard to get to a lot of them. I’ve talked about the Christie law a whole bunch of times. Does that influence the amount of people that go fish? 00;59;34;03 – 00;59;45;28 Dec Hogan It likely not, because it’s a it’s a pain in the long road just to get moving water. It’s an ordeal. It’s a federal project. Every time I go down, they’re not easy to read. Once you’re there to. 00;59;46;19 – 00;59;50;06 Marty Howard Go a little bit. Yeah. 00;59;50;16 – 01;00;19;17 Jonathan Farmer You definitely have to learn as part of it that, you know, there is a difference between hard spotting and promoting your fishery. One of my favorite books is Duck River Journal for the scattered and sort. I through it every year and look at the pictures and find inspiration in that book all the time. And I can remember when it first came out that, you know, I’d say duck took a little bit more heat over that than he did. 01;00;19;21 – 01;00;43;14 Jonathan Farmer Passion, as far as you know. Laurie, what are you doing? You know, you’re doing a river journal on this gadget. Are you kidding me? You know that was kind of the attitude. But, man, I tell you, if I didn’t have that book in my library, there’d be something missing. And, you know, so there’s ways to to promote fishing and fisheries, and then there’s ways not to promote in the hot spot. 01;00;43;14 – 01;01;07;04 Jonathan Farmer And that’s one thing that the Internet has done. And I tell you and I’ve I’ve seen more policing over hot spotting in a recent year when I have since the invention of the Internet, you hot spot now you are going to get called out and you are going to get trounced on and you’re going to learn a really hard lesson that something that you just don’t do. 01;01;07;18 – 01;01;36;24 Jonathan Farmer You don’t tell someone where you’re standing. You don’t. It’s just part of that because it can destroy when you focus, put the focus on it, on spots that can definitely interrupt and destroy the fishery in the fishing. But, you know, as far as promotion goes, if you do it in the right heart and just make sure that you’re you’re not being detrimental to the resource that those things can last forever. 01;01;36;24 – 01;01;54;00 Jonathan Farmer And just like that, that book that that river Journal I’ve got, I’ve got actually quite a few of those review journals and they’re all just glorious to go back and and see what it was like and enjoy new inspiration. I was over. 01;01;54;19 – 01;01;59;15 Marty Howard Nice and Aaron knew that. Marty That’s cool. 01;01;59;15 – 01;02;18;08 Dec Hogan Yeah but that that speaking of that River Journal, I know I was super young when I wrote that and I was asked to do it and I wasn’t going to turn down the opportunity. I was very careful that in that there was no hard spotting and I was very realistic. Even back then when we went to this gadget and we usually caught a fish or two in a day. 01;02;18;18 – 01;02;24;16 Dec Hogan But I was very realistic about it. Well, those are the days I talked about that photo album, 50 pages and only 12 fish in it. 01;02;24;16 – 01;02;32;08 Brian Niska So and you know how many years since then have people not had access and opportunity to fish this gadget, right? 01;02;32;17 – 01;02;39;27 Dec Hogan Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So now it’s a great resource to go vicariously and see what I think. That’s what you’re getting at. Yeah. 01;02;40;08 – 01;02;50;03 Brian Niska Yeah. Well, it falls into that whole thing of a river without friends right now. And so without a book like that, if someone doesn’t have the actual experience of fishing the river, they don’t know what they don’t know. 01;02;50;03 – 01;02;52;14 Dec Hogan Right, Exactly. Yeah, precisely. 01;02;52;25 – 01;03;10;27 Brian Niska That, by the way, is a hoot. And by the way, and I got to tell you, I’m I’m looking forward to next week. I’ve I’ve got Bob Hutton coming on for another episode. Oh, yeah. And he’s going to be joined by a guy you guys may know named Mark McAnally who’s an old time fishing guide here and ABC head guide on about being at the Silver Hilton for many, many years. 01;03;11;08 – 01;03;12;15 Dec Hogan Oh, wow, that would be a good one. 01;03;12;29 – 01;03;14;03 Marty Howard I’ll tune into that. 01;03;14;12 – 01;03;31;16 Brian Niska I’ll tell you, I’m working on another one. I don’t mind teasing this out there because I don’t know if it’s going to happen or not. And it’s a little bit controversial. And I’m new to this podcasting thing, right? And I enjoy it. I hope I get better at it over time, but I enjoy it. And so, you know, you guys probably know who Tucker Carlson is. 01;03;31;17 – 01;03;47;05 Brian Niska Now, recently, there’s been a little bit of info come out that shows that he speaks once in a while or does a little bit of it. So but I’ve reached out to his assistant and some other people I’m trying to circling the wagons because because I’m thinking, you know, that would be an interesting conversation, not a conversation like this, perhaps. 01;03;47;05 – 01;04;02;00 Brian Niska But, you know, I don’t really care too much about getting into politics. I just want to know why the guy likes to fish and man, would I share this information with people in my own circle. You know, some people are like, why are you doing that? And other people are like, Oh, that sounds great. And I’m just like. 01;04;02;21 – 01;04;03;09 Marty Howard I don’t give a damn. 01;04;03;14 – 01;04;23;26 Brian Niska About what the guy’s politics are one way or the other. It’s a guy that fishes. It’s probably an interesting conversation. That’s what I want to do. So, you know, when you think about fishing, right, Like, obviously you’ve got the AdWords and the decorations and the Mardi Howards and not to exclude you, John would put you in there to John, you know, like, like, like the superstars of the whole deal. 01;04;23;27 – 01;04;27;21 Brian Niska They like the names, but there’s a lot of people out there that just like to fish. 01;04;28;00 – 01;04;28;11 Marty Howard Yeah. 01;04;28;22 – 01;04;53;11 Brian Niska Yeah. You know, And I think that there’s a real solid mental health argument for fishing. I know for myself it’s a big part of my life. I think for a lot of people, you know, it’s got a real social benefit. I think it connects us with the land. So environmentally there’s a real upside. Obviously there’s the whole economic thing, but it terrifies me when I think of, you know, rivers that we’ve lost the ability to fish. 01;04;53;25 – 01;05;16;21 Brian Niska You know, I’ve never fished the Skagit it’s important for me to say that I know a bit about it, but I’ve never fished it. And it blows my mind that there’s not a scenario where you couldn’t have a situation where guys were out there fishing unweighted flies, say, or in a certain area at a certain time, and that somehow their perceived impact is at such a level that it’s just not something that can be tolerated. 01;05;17;00 – 01;05;33;03 Brian Niska Given all those other upsides I just said. So, you know, getting perhaps a little bit into the dangerous political waters there. But when you lose a fishery like the Skagit, there’s still people that want to go fishing. You have this waterbed effect. It pushes people to other fisheries. And I just don’t think there’s an upside to these closures. 01;05;33;03 – 01;05;34;06 Brian Niska We talked about that before. 01;05;34;15 – 01;05;34;19 Dec Hogan Why? 01;05;34;20 – 01;05;35;29 Marty Howard Absolutely Yeah. 01;05;36;16 – 01;06;05;06 Dec Hogan You know, I want to touch on something that our world he comes third the buys the local politics and they forget that we have things in common you know anybody doesn’t well listen to what somebody has to say it has they have different political ideologies. That’s really the root of our problem. I think we should work to find the things that we have in common rather than than look for the things that divide up. 01;06;05;22 – 01;06;07;17 Dec Hogan That’s my point. You know, I’m. 01;06;07;23 – 01;06;38;03 Jonathan Farmer I’m actually hyper political in my old age. I honestly feel that if you’re not fishing around that is at least 13 feet. You’re not fishing. So I you know, it’s that’s just one thing that I can’t handle. This is one of those rules. Those golden rules is you don’t bring up politics or religion at the campfire. And but, you know, as far as Tucker Carlson goes, you know, I don’t follow him. 01;06;38;21 – 01;07;05;14 Jonathan Farmer But it would be extremely interesting to hear what makes him click. And what attracted him to the fly around and especially the two handed rod. I have a friend who is a professional golfer, was a professional golfer. He’s kind of out of the scene now, but he won the Masters and won the British Open and one of the used in the world golf Hall of Fame. 01;07;05;14 – 01;07;28;20 Jonathan Farmer But he’s also one of the best two handed casters that you’ll ever see on the planet. You know, he’s not, you know, for just a non-pro. He ranks right up there and he lives for the two handed cars. And, you know, he can he can go the ten days straight without a hook up and still want to go to the one day. 01;07;28;24 – 01;07;54;07 Jonathan Farmer You know, and it’s interesting. And I don’t care who you are, what you’ve done or you know, what your status is in life when it comes to picking up the 200 rod and chasing an fish. There’s just something that clicks internally. And, you know, you talk about the organic, the whole organic feeling of a the game that we play. 01;07;54;29 – 01;08;16;12 Jonathan Farmer And I think that’s what it is. There’s nothing like there’s nothing like catching a fish, especially I still heard on the fly that you’ve tied even to the point on the leader that you’ve tied or even a rod that you’ve built. There’s nothing like it. The rewards are outstanding. I think that’s why people, you know, that do get it. 01;08;16;27 – 01;08;20;08 Jonathan Farmer Stand in a river all day long trying to catch one of these little fish. 01;08;20;29 – 01;08;21;23 Dec Hogan But, you know. 01;08;22;01 – 01;08;48;23 Jonathan Farmer The second you start debating anything like debating steak casting compared to Skagit casting or debating anything that brings in a a very negative vibe that can destroy the whole the whole conversation and put you in a place that isn’t very comfortable. I try to keep even the the politics of the two handed cast out of the conversation. 01;08;49;09 – 01;09;15;09 Dec Hogan Well, I live in a rose colored world because everywhere I go we spread peace and happiness and there’s no debates. We just live and love and fish and swing flies. And and Marty, there is something better than catching one on your own fly. It’s me catching one on your fly. You know, to a point earlier, talking about trophies, you know, that’s one way. 01;09;15;09 – 01;09;34;20 Dec Hogan And to that point, the one way I get to live vicariously through some of my clients and one thing that I’ve I’ve over the years instilled in them is you catch a fish on a fly. More often than not, I’m going to retire, you know. And so just back to that point real quick of how we remember these fish. 01;09;34;23 – 01;09;57;01 Dec Hogan I’ve got quite a few flies on one of them sitting on my windowsill right now at the deli owner size one. You know, I like to call most copies, but the no escape, I remember that fish to this day, I’ll never forget it fell right out of its mouth when it hit the net. And I can look at that fly in it and it triggers up memory. 01;09;57;01 – 01;10;17;25 Dec Hogan There’s flies that definitely need to be retired at times. And that’s pretty cool too. I mean, and nothing against other methodologies, but I don’t know that too many people that fish Caucasian yarn go, Oh man, I’m saving this one. Sighs Fluorescent red with the shark juice yarn. It got my biggest deal. I’m hanging out on the wall. Probably not so much. 01;10;18;13 – 01;10;23;20 Dec Hogan I’ve got a fly on my desk. Who? I lost a fish on. They’ll never get fish together. There you go. There you. 01;10;23;20 – 01;10;23;28 Marty Howard Go. 01;10;24;20 – 01;10;42;13 Dec Hogan I like the guys getting back to fly, trying to go, Oh, gosh, that fish, when you get a fish on it, it breaks the chance. I’ll see you. Oh, I got a counter rap. I’m like, Oh, boo hoo! You broke it on a £12 steelhead that you worked for seven days for, or how many? 16 Mardi. So, yeah, we’re okay. 01;10;43;04 – 01;11;10;06 Jonathan Farmer Well, it’s kind of it’s kind of like women and childbirth, you know, they forget and that’s why they have a second child or a third child. They kind of forget what the experience was. And that’s kind of like what it is for me. You know, I forget those those 18 days straight without a hook up and stepping into the next stream with that reassurance that that there is going to be a fish on the end of my line sooner or later. 01;11;10;06 – 01;11;12;24 Jonathan Farmer So it’s all good when it all comes around. 01;11;13;12 – 01;11;14;24 Dec Hogan We love the process. 01;11;15;14 – 01;11;28;14 Brian Niska Marty. I’ve heard my wife say something similar. We’ve got five little kids, so this is Marty. My background research suggests you’ve got a pretty sweet golf swing. And Jonathan, I know you’re a big golfer. Are you a golfer as well? 01;11;28;27 – 01;11;31;29 Dec Hogan Oh, I’ve had my time in the past, but I’ve generally said. 01;11;31;29 – 01;11;50;22 Brian Niska No, no. Okay. Well, you know, what I’ve observed as a casting instructor is that when you come across and I think you touched on this earlier, Marty touched on this earlier, when you come across someone who’s got a great golf swing, typically that’s going to be a quick, steady spear caster. But that being said, you bring up golf around fishermen, you get different reactions. 01;11;50;22 – 01;12;07;19 Brian Niska And I may have told you this, Jonathan, but I love to bring it up because I think it’s kind of neat is we have a golf course here at the fishing lodge. We got 18 holes right at the lodge, but it’s a different type of golf. Now, to be fair, there’s a really good local golf course about 10 minutes away. 01;12;08;00 – 01;12;26;00 Brian Niska And when we get hit with high water, it’s it’s not unusual for for the guests to go over there and take a golf day. But we’ve got on our property 18 holes of Wiffle golf. And this is a this is a sport that, to my knowledge, was invented in Whistler, where I, of course, was for 12 or 14 years, whatever it was. 01;12;26;16 – 01;12;43;19 Brian Niska And here’s how Wiffle golf works is you get one shot per hole. It’s like it sounds it’s a Wiffle ball and it’s typically about a three quarter swing. Could be a full swing. It’s in the forest. Natural stuff. But the goal here is to hit the green. And if you hit the green, you get a point. It’s just one shot per hole. 01;12;44;02 – 01;12;59;20 Brian Niska If you hit a trap, you lose a point. Now, this is upside down because the winner is the person with the highest score. But the cool thing about Wiffle golf was a few things. One is it doesn’t take very long to get around. The second is if you have a bad shot. It’s just one bad shot. You’re off to the next hole. 01;12;59;20 – 01;13;13;13 Brian Niska But those traps are adjacent to the greens. So if you’re not a great golfer and you’re not hitting a lot of greens, you’re also not hitting a lot of traps. Your stays around zero. Remember, you hit a trap, you lose a point, you hit the green, you gain a point. And if it goes straight in the hole, by the way, you get two. 01;13;13;24 – 01;13;20;12 Brian Niska So if you love to have all you guys at the lodge at some point and if we do well, maybe we’ll play some golf there. Jonathan. 01;13;20;12 – 01;13;23;12 Dec Hogan But I’ll be playing. I’ll be playing golf. That sounds fun. 01;13;23;28 – 01;13;37;25 Brian Niska Let me ask you, though, those of you that are keen golfers, you know, a day on the on the golf course, a day on the river, if you had the opportunity to do either, you know, I’m assuming hopefully it’s fishing, but you know, what’s the attraction to golf for you? 01;13;38;10 – 01;14;04;03 Dec Hogan For me, it’s been a lifelong thing, just as fishing has been. I started playing golf when I was seven, started fishing. I’d done it. Remember my first time out fishing. So that says something there for me. Golf is as mental as it is. Anything just like steel at fishing, though, you’re you encounter, I would say, more problems more rapidly. 01;14;04;13 – 01;14;30;08 Dec Hogan And it just you know, as I’ve gotten older, just like how I approach a river I guess my golf my my course management has improved, but it’s just something that I’ve enjoyed my entire life, just like fishing. So I think there is a direct correlation to, to your point that golfers especially good ones pick up two hand casting very quickly. 01;14;30;25 – 01;14;58;25 Dec Hogan I’ve talked with with my close fishing partner, Bruce, about this many times disease in he’s golfers well and seems as if there’s those two things are relatively closely related I generally don’t find a good golfer that’s going to have a bad to him cast and I know exactly who you are talking about when he says this friend who won the Masters, as I’ve been in golf in my entire life, I can only imagine that that man has an amazing to any task. 01;14;59;15 – 01;15;23;19 Dec Hogan But yeah, for me, there are two very different things. If I had to pick one over the other, it might vary upon the day. You know, for many of us we’re a steel heading becomes a federal project and how we get to our rivers, my close to steel and rivers 3 hours away, though it feels like it’s to cross a completely different state when the closest golf courses 10 minutes or. 01;15;23;23 – 01;15;25;00 Marty Howard So for. 01;15;25;25 – 01;15;50;23 Dec Hogan A bridge is a day on the steel at river though. Awesome. So in my attempt to add some color to this, again, sometimes that steel heading steps is like golfing and that you’re casting great. Also, you know, you’re hitting the greens. I mean, your drives are just amazing and your casts are amazing and you’re putting it up on the green, just chipping it up there. 01;15;50;23 – 01;15;53;25 Dec Hogan Perfect. Over and over. Only there’s no. 01;15;53;25 – 01;16;04;01 Marty Howard Holes. Yeah, that’s it. That’s guaranteed to steel in, you know. Yeah. 01;16;04;04 – 01;16;13;05 Dec Hogan Yeah. So you’re fishing and everything’s going well or you’re standing during the process and there’s not nothing on the end. So you’re just missing pot after pot after pop. 01;16;13;25 – 01;16;14;02 Marty Howard Yeah. 01;16;15;24 – 01;16;38;21 Dec Hogan This is. No, I’m on the green. I get into that to the point of the shared skill level, skill set between golfers and fly fishers or spray casters. I will never forget the first time I as an adult, I swung a golf club. I was going along, taking photographs because that’s my other huge passion is birding and photography. 01;16;39;19 – 01;16;55;26 Dec Hogan But I went along to take some pictures of some guys and they go Give it a shot. And I said, Yeah, I’ll try it. And I understood the basic mechanics of a swing, you know, And I just I got up there, I had nothing to fear. It’s just a ball that doesn’t move until you hit it, right. It just sitting there. 01;16;55;26 – 01;17;18;05 Dec Hogan Static. I see people sweating over the ball. I always laugh because it’s not moving. But I distinctly remember saying to myself, this has got be a lot like casting in that I’m not going to try and crush this thing. I’m going to swing easy. Nobody taught me anything. And to this day, and I did have a stint of golfing. 01;17;18;17 – 01;17;28;23 Dec Hogan It’s one of the best drives I ever made in my life. It was my very first one, and all I did was think about what I knew about casting of Fly Rod far, and then I sucked after that. 01;17;29;02 – 01;17;31;02 Marty Howard Yeah, start thinking about it. 01;17;31;18 – 01;17;33;16 Dec Hogan It’s hard. It’s way harder than fishing. 01;17;33;29 – 01;17;54;24 Jonathan Farmer This buddy of mine, Mark O’Mara, and I was one of the greatest swingers on the planet when we first met. It was a guy in I guided him the first time he ever fly, fished him. And during the whole experience, I’m not going to get into the story, but it’s a fun one. But he wanted to watch me fish and I said, Mark, I don’t fish when I’m guide. 01;17;54;24 – 01;18;13;23 Jonathan Farmer And that’s just one of the rules. In the end, he said, No professional golfers, we learn by watching. And I picked up the rod, hooked a fish and first cast and handed the rod back and said, There you go, that’s how you do it. And he called me a name and and said, I can’t wait to get you on a golf course. 01;18;13;23 – 01;18;38;02 Jonathan Farmer And I said, That’s not going to happen because I don’t golf. And he goes, Well, you do. Now, from that point forward, you know, I’ve got all his hand-me-down clubs and we spend a lot of time together. We fish, we fish over 100 days a year together and travel together. And he’s taken me all over Ireland, all the golf courses and Ireland, and I’ve golfed all the exclusive clubs. 01;18;38;03 – 01;18;38;09 Jonathan Farmer And. 01;18;38;20 – 01;18;40;13 Dec Hogan Can you taste sugar daddy. 01;18;40;20 – 01;19;02;27 Jonathan Farmer Yeah. Sugar daddy to the max. But the whole thing comes back to if I would rather be on the river or golfing. There’s not even a choice there. I would rather be on on the water, even the conditions were the worst that they were than on the golf course. And Mark, you know what’s funny about Mark and golf to him was his job. 01;19;03;01 – 01;19;31;17 Jonathan Farmer And he would rather he would tell you straight up that he’d rather be on the water than than on the golf course. And I’ve watched him progress with his fishing and it is true that when you’re an athlete, especially someone that knows how to golf, you can pick up a fly rod and get down pretty quick. And just this year, he it’s a fun story because I fish people go, what fly line do you use? 01;19;31;17 – 01;20;01;28 Jonathan Farmer And I said, Wow, this green one I got from Air Flow back Backbone Deck designed the first practical heads for airflow and I that’s the line that I use. And I haven’t changed and probably never will. I love the line and it’s not easy to carve out. It’s not a forgiving line like a gadget line. It’s longer. It takes a longer rod to really fish it well, and that’s what I like. 01;20;01;29 – 01;20;02;12 Jonathan Farmer I like. 01;20;02;17 – 01;20;03;00 Marty Howard Longer. 01;20;03;00 – 01;20;27;24 Jonathan Farmer Lines and longer rods and enjoy not having to strip when when I’m fishing decks tactical, which hopefully he’ll get off his butt and get with his current company and get it redesigned and out on the market. But when I fish those lines, I don’t have to strip line in. I can fish a comfortable clash with one or two strips and it makes the whole experience a whole lot better. 01;20;27;24 – 01;20;50;01 Jonathan Farmer But but that’s what I enjoy. So back to the the Mark situation and as as he’s always been kind of a scandi guy and he just goes like, now I just don’t like stripping anymore because my hands get wet and they get cold. And I said, Yeah, I want you to go to this line. You know, it also almost eliminates ice in the guides because you’re not stripping the line through the guides and your hands aren’t wet. 01;20;50;01 – 01;21;12;14 Jonathan Farmer And it’s just a very comfortable to fish. And he goes, Well, I’ve got to do that. And went into town and bought a medallion and came back out and he couldn’t cast it. It took him a while. He had to work to learn how to throw it. But you know, just by watching both me and my other fishing buddy, Derek, he got it down and was Chuck in the long line. 01;21;12;14 – 01;21;24;20 Jonathan Farmer And he goes, Now I can see it now. I can see what you guys are doing. And I like this. And so, you know, as far as being a golfer and a five fisherman. 01;21;24;22 – 01;21;25;05 Marty Howard You know. 01;21;25;05 – 01;21;27;17 Jonathan Farmer That’s definitely fly fishing over. 01;21;27;17 – 01;21;27;27 Dec Hogan Golf. 01;21;28;19 – 01;21;35;02 Brian Niska Yeah, it’s funny how people get really strong opinions on certain types of fly lines. They duck, you know, the criticism. 01;21;35;02 – 01;21;37;04 Marty Howard Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01;21;38;02 – 01;21;41;06 Dec Hogan It is on, man. It’s all. It’s all what you like. 01;21;41;15 – 01;21;47;19 Brian Niska I like the way Marty put it there. It’s. It’s, you know, it’s using. What brings you pleasure fish where you want to go? 01;21;47;19 – 01;22;08;14 Dec Hogan Absolutely. You want to get ahead? I don’t care. Summertime and using small flies. And I see these guys put on little floating tips on their scratching heads, albeit they have a ball not just about handle the fish well be kind to fellow anglers and you know whatever I used to care I don’t now to each his own. 01;22;08;28 – 01;22;29;19 Brian Niska You know what I still sometimes like to rile people up There is this one and I’m not trying to start a fight with anyone on the screen here, but I have a very strong opinion about what hand one should be wrestling with. And all my staff knows this, right? So when they see someone who’s set up the other way every now and again, they’ll just kind of slide them my way because it’s it becomes a bit of a joke around here. 01;22;29;19 – 01;22;52;04 Brian Niska The truth of the matter is, is I don’t get real with whatever side you want, but I like to I like to sometimes have this discussion. And once again, I’m trying to start a fight. Somebody would tell you guys. But yeah, it’s it’s just kind of funny how another one would be. You know, there’s probably 300 different ways to manage your your running line, right, with various loops and whether it’s off the top hand or the bottom hand. 01;22;52;19 – 01;23;09;27 Brian Niska But maybe it was about a week ago I saw a loop, had a really video of of a guy who’s a great caster, and for whatever reason, he put the damn running line in his mouth. He had. I saw it, so I had to get on there and I just said, you know, why? Why does he do it like that? 01;23;10;02 – 01;23;23;21 Brian Niska And some guy started to say, Oh, you know, it’s because he’s way too deep and it allows him to shoot further. And I’m like, Well, I weigh deep sometimes and I don’t I don’t do that. And I just thought it was kind of funny because I recognized it for what it was. It was an attention drying cool clip. 01;23;23;22 – 01;23;39;26 Brian Niska And I know the guy. I don’t think he I don’t think he actually fishes that way. And I really don’t know if I’d want to put running line in my mouth if I was shooting a long cast. But it just goes just goes to show that it’s, you know, as you get older, you kind of mellow out a little bit and, you know, things that were a big deal they don’t have to be in. 01;23;40;07 – 01;23;57;21 Brian Niska You know, I used to get kind of down on people sometimes who, you know, who who were really pigeonholed themselves in fish, only a certain type Scandi casters, as an example, is a really good example. And now I’m just like, you know what? You can only fish one rod at a time. You can only fish one line at a time, just fish, whatever brings you joy. 01;23;57;21 – 01;24;13;20 Brian Niska And if you’re a gear guy and it God bless and we all have them as clients, you know, the guy shows up with eight rigs and and a duffel bag full of flies and sink tips, whatever. You know, those guys probably end up fishing less than the guy that just always fishes the same set up. 01;24;14;04 – 01;24;20;08 Dec Hogan What hand firing? No, You fight on just the fact that you’re saying that you pirate real with your right hand. 01;24;20;09 – 01;24;22;09 Brian Niska Yeah. Right handed caster. Right handed really. 01;24;22;14 – 01;24;23;28 Dec Hogan Throws mark sort of thing already. 01;24;24;05 – 01;24;24;14 Marty Howard All right. 01;24;24;24 – 01;24;25;29 Jonathan Farmer Just making sure. 01;24;25;29 – 01;24;38;23 Brian Niska And you know what? Since I brought it up, I’ll tell you what. So. So the scenario is a guy comes in, this guy’s left as oh, you’re right handed guy, you’re doing it wrong. He says, What do you mean? I said, Well, why you dealing with your left? He goes, Oh, because I want to pull on the fish with my good hand. 01;24;39;02 – 01;24;56;21 Brian Niska And I said, Pull on the fish. Aren’t you worried about falling backwards? I go, If you ever you ever get, you know, catch a big fish like a big Chinook I want to push on it. So I show him how I put the right to the left side and I push against the rod and then I real down and I explain that you’re not generally moving a big fish with the real you’re moving it with the rod and then capturing the line. 01;24;57;02 – 01;25;12;10 Brian Niska And then I say, Hey, you know, I’ve been a fishing guide now for about 30 years and it hasn’t happened 50 times, but it’s happened more than ten where I’ve seen a guy reeling left and he’s got his real handle and a fish grabs it and the real handle hits his open pocket and the whole scenario ends pretty quickly. 01;25;12;10 – 01;25;20;22 Brian Niska You wouldn’t want that to happen, would you? But the truth of the matter is, is if a guy manages that and he’s happy wriggling left, why am I bugging them? That’s because I’m bored. 01;25;21;04 – 01;25;22;06 Marty Howard Yeah, right. No, it’s fun. 01;25;23;21 – 01;25;43;07 Dec Hogan I in one instance in we we call in Tony’s knife. Knife toss when you have to switch hands from the hand that you’re holding the rod with to the other two real Athol guys sockeye fishing on the upper Kenai. And he went to switch hands and the rod got yanked out of his hand and fly. 01;25;43;07 – 01;25;44;25 Marty Howard Did he. Did he get it back? No. 01;25;45;16 – 01;25;49;19 Dec Hogan No, that’s, I think, gone forever. 01;25;49;19 – 01;25;50;10 Brian Niska Hilarious. 01;25;50;17 – 01;25;51;00 Marty Howard Yeah. 01;25;51;16 – 01;25;59;14 Jonathan Farmer That’s what I’m saying about politics and debating. But there’s no debate of which. And to illustrate as just one that you just don’t debate. 01;25;59;14 – 01;26;01;07 Dec Hogan We don’t know. There’s no winning. 01;26;01;24 – 01;26;02;24 Marty Howard Yeah, Yeah. 01;26;03;01 – 01;26;05;03 Dec Hogan I would say there’s no right way to do it. 01;26;05;11 – 01;26;07;29 Marty Howard No. Yeah. Whatever makes you most comfortable. 01;26;08;10 – 01;26;42;00 Brian Niska Yeah You know, I think I think what we want out there in this, this community is we want participation and we want people to like you guys are saying, uplift others and we want to fight together to ensure that, you know, fish habitat stays intact and the importance of wild fish. And, you know, hopefully the people that manage these resources recognize that, you know, we’re advocates and they find a way to keep us with that access and opportunity I keep talking about because, you know, as I get older and I’ve got these little kids, I got five of them and the oldest is nine. 01;26;42;00 – 01;26;52;00 Brian Niska So they’re pretty little. And I think, man, I hope these kids can still fish the way that we’re all able to fish as they get older. So that’s kind of becoming a thing for me. 01;26;52;12 – 01;26;53;06 Dec Hogan Absolutely. 01;26;54;00 – 01;27;09;02 Brian Niska So before we wrap up, I want to come clean on something, too. I should said, you know, talk about taking my kids fishing. They’re not fly fishing yet. This is important thing. I’m not trying to like have like a five year old fly caster. When I go with my kids. They gear fish, they bar fish. Just want them out there having a good time. 01;27;09;12 – 01;27;35;08 Brian Niska And I’m not going to force fly fishing on them because they’re in a really unique situation where they’re surrounded by it and when they want to do it, it’ll be there for them. So I’m not really an elitist guy in that sense. But that being said, you know, I do think there is a good argument for fly fishing only regulations in certain fisheries when we’re talking about ways to maintain access and opportunity in a situation where, you know, fish numbers maybe aren’t as high as people would like them to be. 01;27;35;21 – 01;27;41;20 Brian Niska Before we wrap up, do you guys have any comments about management, sustainability, that type of thing? 01;27;42;07 – 01;28;02;21 Dec Hogan I’m living in my rose colored glasses on and anymore I don’t even know. And I am an optimistic guy and I’m a cheerleader. And well, at the same time, this is going to be the most negative thing you’ll hear from my mouth. I’ve been. I have been literally I’m closing in on 40 years for steelhead fishing for my whole life. 01;28;02;21 – 01;28;26;05 Dec Hogan But and I see the same the same stuff that was going on 40 years ago as regards to conservation and user groups and infighting and all wanting the same thing, but looking at it from different angles and and not really working. So I’m not so all my head in the sand obviously can start a whole nother podcast with this. 01;28;26;05 – 01;28;52;17 Dec Hogan But I’m, I have faith in nature, but that’s about it. So, you know, I don’t really have a whole lot to add to that. I’m not one to make decisions for other people. And, you know, I can say that my time that was spent specifically on the sold duck, the most courteous anglers that I encountered were the gear that they would pull up their rigs and float on the other side of the river. 01;28;52;17 – 01;29;21;23 Dec Hogan When I had bobber fly, anglers throw my feet, you know, there’s there was a lot of respect given and I made sure to to let them know, thank you so much for the ground. I’ll because they could see I had to hand rob my hand and you know and then on my home river admittedly I’ve told people you ever get that close to me again in my cast in your boat because there is no respect on my home river God’s will row right in front of you. 01;29;21;23 – 01;29;56;12 Dec Hogan And those people need to realize that they’re, you know, using that river for money every single day of the season. And then you have recreational anglers or other guides out there and we’re all just trying to do the same thing. And it’s their big rivers that we fish. You know, there’s a wild ring. And I think just instilling, you know, and this is where I again, I really appreciate my upbringing on a golf course, but I learned etiquette at a very early age and that transferred into my fishing career. 01;29;56;21 – 01;30;40;22 Dec Hogan You know, I started out as a gear angler and a largemouth bass guy and for all taxes and moved over into the fly fishing realm at about 17 years old and then then really got into it once I once I moved to Alaska permanently in 2008 and started still hunting almost immediately. You know, you take those same principles onto a river and but yeah, I think I think just everybody trying to understand that we’re all on a different timeline as far as our journey as still hunters and anglers as a whole, and that we should just try and be as kind to one another and give each other grace as much as possible, you know, 01;30;41;01 – 01;30;51;09 Dec Hogan is really important to the longevity of, our sport. If we make it into a competition, then that’s, you know, the start of the the downfall of things. 01;30;51;23 – 01;31;29;15 Jonathan Farmer You know, I think Dick and Jonathan taking credit where it’s due. If you look at the books that has produced and the book that Jonathan has produced as far as progressing the sport, and that’s ensuring that there’s something out there for people to to gain knowledge and to put to use so that they can continue on their journey and their and as far as conservation goes, there’s no more important aspect of conservation than it is teaching beginners and people, you know, into enjoying and engaging and enjoying the sport. 01;31;30;00 – 01;32;08;03 Jonathan Farmer And one thing that I that I am quite fortunate we have an expo here that I’m involved with in locally that is actually a quite large expo. And through that expo there’s all kinds of opportunities to teach and to promote and to do things that get people excited about fly fishing. And then once you’ve got them excited about fly fishing, then you can start talking about contributing even money to conservation and putting back and paying back and paying forward for the things that that bring you enjoyment and through the club life. 01;32;08;03 – 01;32;39;10 Jonathan Farmer I know you know, a lot of people, clubs aren’t for everybody, but through fly and to you the two big clubs and and you know well not locally internationally you know through those clubs that’s whole emphasis is to to get people hooked and then to get them into a position where you can teach them about conservation and conservation can be as simple as catch and release or it can be as simple as just going out on an outing and planning wells. 01;32;39;11 – 01;33;11;13 Jonathan Farmer But once you get people engaged in more than just the personal aspect of the sport, but paying back for what you receive, then you can really progress the whole thing. And and when you when you get numbers involved, it’s pretty exciting. I know when that teaches fly casting monthly and through those classes, he has no idea the impact that he’s having on those people and what they’re going to eventually become and do. 01;33;11;13 – 01;33;42;12 Jonathan Farmer As far as it comes to conservation, such as just the smallest efforts that, you know, a book isn’t the small effort that the just the efforts that you put into it can be it doesn’t have to be donating thousands of dollars to conservation or it doesn’t have to be spending hundreds and hundreds of hours of on stream rehab and this, that and the other thing being involved in in different programs and all that kind of stuff that can be as simple as teaching of beginning fly time class. 01;33;42;20 – 01;33;51;19 Jonathan Farmer And that’s how you’re going to preserve the whole process and get people involved. And what without people, you have no support? 01;33;52;00 – 01;34;06;27 Brian Niska Well, Marty, that’s a that’s a lovely way to wrap this up in a bit of a call to action. So before we say goodbye, I’d like to give you guys each the opportunity to let the listeners know how they can, how they can find. Yeah, we’ll start with Dick, then we’ll go Jonathan and finish up with Marty. 01;34;07;29 – 01;34;29;24 Dec Hogan You know, I don’t have a website one of these days. I will say that for four years Instagrams is Dick Hogan and and then Facebook, Dick Hogan take a look on there. You know I post some fun things and some educational things and and happy stuff. But eventually there’s more coming right now. Any books I have are all out of print. 01;34;30;07 – 01;34;52;05 Dec Hogan And with my brother in law there, hopefully we’re going to we’re going to change that and get some things back in print per request daily. I get messages and emails and text and instant messages about where they can find this book or that book. And then I’ve had five shops approach us to, Hey, we need this book back, so stay tuned. 01;34;52;16 – 01;35;21;08 Dec Hogan Thank you. So I do want to add and correct me if I’m wrong deck, I’m pretty sure that you have two Instagram accounts. Am I correct? Correct. Yeah. The second one is thirds and photog with the head. And I followed that page and I’ve career’s through it. And don’t let Dex settle himself short sought to niche others harmed but is giving credit where credit is due. 01;35;21;08 – 01;35;44;29 Dec Hogan The man is an amazing photographer Marty is as well. But yeah you do have the second Instagram account that’s boats and photography. The Hogan underscore bird photography. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that’s funny you say that because I, I was showing somebody something from it yesterday, so it was up on my account and I saw that you had commented on one of my just this morning. 01;35;44;29 – 01;36;07;16 Dec Hogan I saw that you had commented on one of my body. Yes. Well, thanks. Yeah. And before we go on, if you don’t mind, also for me, I do teach I don’t advertise it a whole lot because the shops that sponsor it usually do it. But occasionally I’ll, uh, you know, Marty said I travel around the nation all year, year round, teaching to hand casting slash fishing schools. 01;36;07;16 – 01;36;30;22 Dec Hogan So check in now and then. Sometimes I have to fill a spot and it’s there, so thanks, Jonathan. Yeah, of course. And yeah. Jonathan Farmer You can Google me and find a whole bunch of stuff. If you google Jonathan Farmer fly dying to find some old YouTube videos that I did. Midnight Sun Custom Flies on Instagram and on Facebook. 01;36;31;07 – 01;36;53;02 Dec Hogan Midnight Sun Custom flies dot com. Though if you look at the flies that I have on the site, they will always be out of stock. I only do custom orders. They’re there for clients to get an idea of what they want when they’re putting together an order. You know, the only minimum that I ever have is three per color per pattern. 01;36;53;02 – 01;37;11;19 Dec Hogan I don’t have a dollar amount. So if you up three flies, cool. Let’s do it. And that’s for the client and myself and so that they have a back up for their back up. So if they retire a fly on a special fish or their first deal, you know, they have those back ups on them. For me, it’s efficiency. 01;37;11;28 – 01;37;47;21 Dec Hogan I break that when it comes to plastic flies because those get. But yeah, that’s how you can find me on my book Chasing from time all still have them Pacific salmon flies. And thanks to Dak and Marty for helping that come to fruition. I will also add that I, along with a lot of other people, even though I have a signed copy from both of you all sitting right next to me of your book, I would advocate that that goes back into print because if and when it does, I will be buying another copy. 01;37;48;04 – 01;38;16;12 Dec Hogan You know, I think that books are a great way to preserve not only the history of of the art of Fly tying or fly fishing or anything in general, but they can’t be erased. You can erase a book, you can delete pictures, you can delete thread, you can delete comments, you can delete all these things off the Internet and they can even be done for you if those platforms don’t like what you’ve posted, you cannot delete a book. 01;38;16;26 – 01;38;36;15 Dec Hogan And so I’m a big advocate for for growing your own personal library. And I was before I ever wrote one. So yeah, that’s how you can find me in that. Some custom fliers dot com on Instagram. I’m happy to answer questions and do it from the moment I wake up to the time I go to bed journal at night. 01;38;36;28 – 01;38;37;18 Brian Niska Thanks Jonathan. 01;38;38;06 – 01;39;03;25 Jonathan Farmer I’m easy it’s just Marty Howard at Face on Facebook. Marty Howard on Instagram and and Marty Howard at MSNBC.com. If you want to send me an email and trust me, I’ll respond back and just add the book situation on the book thing. A lot of people don’t realize that Jonathan self-published that book and I self-published our fly time book. 01;39;03;25 – 01;39;19;03 Jonathan Farmer And so that’s the reason why there’s limited numbers of copies out there. If we had a big publishing company that was in charge of all this not coming out of our own pocket to get stuff done, I’m sure it’d be different, but you can expect. 01;39;19;18 – 01;39;19;22 Marty Howard That. 01;39;19;25 – 01;39;43;20 Jonathan Farmer It may take a while, but you can expect a second printing of those still had flight time book and but that’s not where it’s going to end next. Got another book in and I know he does and because of the lessons that we’ve learned and I have learned over the last ten years, we can do it in-house. And that makes it really fun and it makes it easy and it makes it profitable. 01;39;43;20 – 01;39;46;14 Jonathan Farmer So expect more in the future. 01;39;46;29 – 01;40;03;02 Brian Niska Excellent. You guys will. Hey, I want to thank you. I really appreciate you coming on here. And hopefully we’ll do again and Dec very much looking forward to having you as a guest at The Lodge. Jonathan and Marty, I’d love to get you up here sometime. Jonathan, your case down here because you’re up in Alaska, so. 01;40;03;07 – 01;40;03;17 Marty Howard We’ll be. 01;40;03;17 – 01;40;06;00 Jonathan Farmer Up in September when I come see you. 01;40;06;10 – 01;40;07;02 Brian Niska Oh yeah, there you. 01;40;07;02 – 01;40;08;10 Marty Howard Go On the weekend. 01;40;08;18 – 01;40;34;22 Brian Niska Please do. Please do. All right, you guys. Well, thank you very much. Well, folks, that was a fun conversation with some absolute legends. I want to thank Dick, Marty and Jonathan for taking the time to join us today. Thanks as well. To everyone tuning in. We’ll be back with another episode in a month. In the meantime, please feel free to send in your comments, questions and ideas to me via email at info at Skin of Space.com. 01;40;34;22 – 01;40;48;03 Brian Niska Once again, I’m Brian Escott and you’ve been listening to In the Bucket podcast brought to you by the workplace wing.