1015 | Nomadic Waters with Kristi and Michael Williams – Brazil, Amazon River, Peacock Bass

WFS 1015 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: A peacock bass can follow your fly all the way to the boat, stare you down and still decide to eat your fly. Today we’re heading into the Amazon to find out what it takes to fish this remote water. Why presentation matters more than the fly and what else might be swimming beneath you while you’re looking for peacock bass. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Michael and Kristi Williams from Nomadic Waters are here, and they’re going to take us inside their operation in Brazil. And the fishing that has kept them coming back to the Amazon for years. We’re going to hear about getting your fly tight to the trees, how this can be the difference between seeing fish all day and thinking there aren’t any fish at all. We’re gonna hear what happens after a big peacock eats, including that first explosive run towards submerged trees, and why heavy rods and tippet matter. Michael’s going to introduce us to other fish species that show up during the week, week, including Payara, arowana, Arapaima, and some of these can reach over one hundred pounds. So we’re going to walk through the trip itself from arriving in Manaus to flying over the jungle in a private charter plane. It’s all here today. Excited to get into this one. This is going to be a big trip. Michael and Kristi Williams. You can find them at Nomadic Waters. Here they are. Michael and Kristi. How are you guys doing today? 00:01:25 Michael: We are great. Thanks so much for this opportunity. 00:01:28 Dave: Yeah. Kristi uh, are you with us? Everything good with you this morning? 00:01:33 Kristi: Hey, Dave, we’ve got Michael on the field in Brazil, and I’m holding down the home front here in Atlanta, Georgia. 00:01:39 Dave: Nice. Right away. It’s already starting off great because Georgia is one of those places I’ve been talking with my family about traveling to. We’ve been talking about for like more like family stuff doing, uh, doing that. So we’ll have another conversation probably about that. But, um, but this is amazing. We got you and Georgia, we’ve got, we’ve got the Amazon here going and today we’re going to talk about really your program, what you do. We’ll probably touch on peacock, bass, some of the species and just, you know, a little bit of everything. But let’s take it back real quick on Nomadic Waters. Um, you know, talk about this. How did how did this all come to be? I’m not sure. Michael, if you want to start us off or. Kristi, but just give us a background. How did all this start for you? 00:02:15 Michael: Sure. You know, long ago, back in the nineties, I was a guide in Colorado, uh, back when the dinosaurs were still roaming the earth. And, um, I worked my way up, uh, to be the head guide for the oldest fishing outfitter in Colorado. It was a really, really big deal. And I worked really hard to get to that point. And at the end of my first year as a head guide, you know, I had the most trips, I had the best customers, I had the most tips, and I looked at my taxes. At the end of the year, I made less than twenty thousand dollars for the whole year. 00:02:50 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:02:51 Michael: And I’m just like, you know, I love what I do, but I just can’t do this. And at the time I just knew people were starting to travel and they were just kind of doing it on their own. And so I just grabbed twenty of my favorite guests, took them out to dinner, and I just said, look, here’s the deal. And I just showed them. I’m like, this is what I’m making this year. So we got to make some changes. And I said, look, you guys are traveling. I would love to travel. We all get along. Every one of us here, we all get along. I think we travel well together. Let’s pick one or two places and let’s, let’s do some destination trips together and just let me run it. Let me host it, let me work it through. And it really worked out well because, you know, with twenty guys, you can get eight or nine or ten to make their schedules work. And, and remember, this is back in the nineties. So there weren’t, nobody was doing hosted trips that trip. 00:03:41 Dave: That. 00:03:42 Michael: Wasn’t really in existence. And so I realized that I had to do that as an independent. And so that’s what started the business of nomadic waters. And so we would do some fun trips. And I learned so much, um, doing that. Uh, one of the big takeaways was to keep that list to twenty people. 00:04:03 Dave: Oh, right. 00:04:04 Michael: And instead of trying to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, um, you know, a lot of our guests are business owners. They, you know, they’re, um, they’re well funded, they’re powerful men. And you look at a guy like that and say, hey, I’m sorry, the group is closed. Well, they’re going to find a way to get in, you know, and so it would really create demand instead of me begging everyone for trips. Um, it was just a different approach. And so, you know, long story short that just, I just learned a lot of, uh, a lot of lessons of how to run trips and how to manage a guest list and all that. And so we did that for a while, different places. Um, and it really got to the point where I just wanted to do something that was all our own to a point where we could really grow, have a location where we would have people rotating through and really grow the business. That’s the origin story. 00:05:01 Dave: That’s it. And where did. And Christy, you’re with us here. Where did the connection was this when Michael was a was a guide in Colorado, were you in the picture or did that come later? 00:05:12 Kristi: Oh, that was quite a bit later. I was in grad school. I couldn’t marry the professor, so I married his son. And I’m not even sure at that point that I knew what I was getting into. He had that long history. Um, and had stepped away from some of it during that time. And, um, there are later events that revitalized everything and it’s been a whirlwind since then. We were just looking back this week to a eleven year anniversary for one of his exploratory trips. And it’s really incredible to see the growth and the way that we’ve had to transform in the last decade. 00:05:51 Dave: Right? Yeah. We’ll talk a little bit about that today. So nice. Well, we have the kind of the intro story, which is amazing. And Nomadic Waters is a great name. And maybe tell us that on the name who came up with Nomadic Water because I feel like that name is a great brand. 00:06:07 Michael: Well, I appreciate that. It’s funny. Um, whenever I wanted to start a business, that’s the first thing that always came to my mind is just I, I, a lot of people have a long list of what’s going to work, what’s best, and they shop it around and see what names people like. That’s really been the only option. I’ve just have always loved that. And it’s just because I just, I love to travel. I love to see what’s out there. Um, every place I go, I learn something new. And so I just, I knew I wanted to have the name nomadic in there somewhere. 00:06:36 Dave: Yeah. 00:06:36 Dave: It’s it’s great. No, and it fits perfectly, obviously, because you’re, you’re in a, you know, Brazil, you’re I mean, what we’re going to talk about today kind of where you’re at and maybe just lead us with that. You’re sitting here, um, maybe describe where you’re at right now and what’s going on around you there at the at the lodge? 00:06:53 Michael: Sure. Yeah. We were on a floating base. Uh, it’s basically a barge that we had built a full structure on. And we’re in a small river called the Rio de la Cour. It’s on the river. And this is a very unique, very, very, very, very special place. Uh, you know, we’ve been in the Amazon now fourteen years. We’ve had different locations. Um, you know, as we run different seasons, we go to different places. But this place is incredibly special, I tell people. This is our trophy fishery. So this is big fish in small water. And that just, you know, it really defines the kind of gear. It kind of defines these strategies. And really, frankly, the customer. Um, because so much of what we do here is site fishing. 00:07:46 Dave: Oh, nice. 00:07:47 Michael: And, um, I’ll kind of back up. Uh, typically Amazon rivers. Now when I say Amazon rivers, here’s the thing that’s mind blowing and it’s just really hard if you’ve never really looked at the map, right. Go to Google Maps right now and just look at South America. What we call the Amazon Basin is the full length of the Amazon plus every tributary that feeds the Amazon River. If you look at that area, it is larger than all of Europe. 00:08:19 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:08:21 Michael: It is larger than the continental United States. So imagine one river running down the middle of the United States and every river running into it. Uh, so you just can’t wrap your mind around it. Um, so we were in a tributary of a tributary of a tributary of the Amazon River. And typically the rivers here can be very coffee colored, dark water. Sometimes it’s. It would be like dark water with like a cup of coffee with milk in it. Muddy water. Um, so typically you don’t have a lot of opportunities to cite fish. Um, just because of the clarity of the water. Well, this particular river is crystal clear. Um, I can literally think of three other fisheries in this whole region that has clear water. And so we see the fish, we see them moving, we see where to cast. Um, that’s both good and bad. 00:09:17 Dave: Mhm. Yeah. 00:09:18 Michael: And um, it’s just so it’s just so special. Um, now one thing that’s really, um, a major issue, major challenge or indicator of good fishing or bad fishing is water levels. And one thing that really surprises guests, if they can really figure it out is just understanding how much our water levels change. They change on a monthly basis. They change on a weekly basis. They literally change on a daily basis. But guest guests don’t see that. And so it’s not uncommon for a river to drop a foot a week. Um, and when you’re talking about a river that’s small already, it just really has a great impact of where those fish are. And so a big part of our success is customers working super closely with the guides. Um, because the guys know where the fish are and it’s just a matter of the customers being willing to work as a team. And the thing that’s unique about this particular section of the river is that we are a tributary of the Rio Blanco, which is a quite large tributary of the Rio Negro, big River. When the water is extremely low, like right now, we’re experiencing a low water, uh, level event. A lot of the fish will move out of the bigger river like the Rio Blanco, and they’ll move into our little river. And this river is just so full of food. There are some deeper areas. There are places for them to hang out, and they’ll spend the whole season here, which is what we love. 00:10:56 Dave: Um, and the smaller, they’ll spend the whole season in the small. 00:10:58 Dave: River. 00:10:59 Michael: The whole time. Yeah. 00:11:00 Dave: And why do they do that? Why do they move from the larger river to the smaller river when it gets lower? 00:11:05 Michael: Yeah. Because when the water is low, the characteristics of the Rio Blanco, uh, there just isn’t as much food. And so they will follow where the food sources are. 00:11:15 Dave: Okay. 00:11:15 Michael: And right now our river is just so full of baitfish. Uh, I wish I could show you. I could literally show you from where I’m standing. I can count a dozen. I can dump fifty fish, right? And literally just swimming past the platform here. And so these fish can our peacock passengers get fat and happy, and there’s no reason for them to leave. And we have about a fifty miles of river to fish here, which is mind boggling. I mean, if this river were anywhere else, there would be five lodges here, you know. 00:11:46 Dave: Right. 00:11:46 Michael: But we’ve got the whole thing. And so we can rest the fish. We can have a variety for the guests to fish. They see a lot of different things from shallow flats, fish moving through shallow flats to big lagoons to deep, deep trenches. And, um, so I don’t mean to talk and talk and talk and talk, but it’s just. 00:12:07 Dave: Yeah, it’s. 00:12:07 Michael: A really cool place. But the other thing that makes this river interesting is what’s a real killer for a successful day or a trip in the Amazon is high water. And you know, none of this is predictable. Every year is different. And so, you know, you might arrive in the river, may have come up three or four or five feet overnight. It just that’s happened to us. And so that just shuts everything down. But the beauty of this river is there are so many lakes that are connected to this river. And so when the water is up high, we can actually cut our way in and get into these lakes. And the lakes are at a perfect level when the river is high. 00:12:50 Dave: Oh, wow. So you’re fishing for peacocks in the lakes as well? 00:12:54 Michael: Absolutely. Peacocks. Arapaima. We have three or four different species of peacock. We’ll have arowana, Oscar. And you know, those fish literally get fished too. Oh my goodness. Two weeks a year. 00:13:07 Dave: No kidding. So you have the lake and the lake system. They are just in both rivers. And are the lakes similar to like lakes that we think of in the lower forty eight? 00:13:14 Michael: They are. Uh, there’ll be a large lake that’s connected to a lake that’s a little bit smaller, and the lake’s just a little bit smaller. There’ll be like a chain of them, and each one is just a little bit different. And the fish are a little bit different in each one. And it’s just, it’s just the variety is mind boggling. 00:13:34 Dave: So yeah. 00:13:35 Michael: What attracts me to this area is just the unpredictability and, you know, finding solutions to what’s happening literally this hour on the river. Um, I eat that up. It’s just that’s if this I just told someone this morning we were hosting some guests. I’m just like, you know, this place was predictable. I wouldn’t be here. 00:13:53 Dave: Right? 00:13:53 Dave: Yeah. It wouldn’t be as much fun. Well, that’s always goes back to the fishing part of it. You know, I. 00:13:57 Dave: Mean, yeah, it’s. 00:13:58 Dave: Just like, man, if you could just catch fish, like I always go back to steelhead because I kind of know that as much. I mean, it’s hard, you know, it’s hard to catch steelhead. And if it was easy, if you just, it wouldn’t be as fun and you’d kind of probably do something else. 00:14:10 Michael: And, you know, as we talk to guests at shows or I guess, but, you know, just people kind of tire kick in just like, well, tell me about your place. And, you know, I’ve seen YouTube videos. It looks pretty easy. It looks like a lot of fun. 00:14:22 Dave: And you just. 00:14:23 Michael: You just kind of take a deep breath. 00:14:25 Dave: Right? 00:14:26 Michael: Literally the first thing I say is this is not an easy fishery. It’s hard. 00:14:30 Dave: No. Yeah. 00:14:31 Michael: But it’s fun. And you earn every fish and I love that. 00:14:34 Dave: Exactly. 00:14:34 Dave: It’s fun. And then it’s the experience too, right? The fact that you’re going to the Amazon, you know, the forest and all that, maybe describe a little bit on, you know, that part of it, like when people are are coming in, what is that first day like? Just describe that a little bit as. Yeah. Yeah. 00:14:51 Michael: Yeah. So, you know, from my home in Atlanta, I’ll fly from Atlanta to Panama, and then I’ll have about an hour and a half layover, which is perfect. And I can hop on the next plane that flies just straight to Manaus. And Manaus is the capital city of the state of Amazonas. It’s about three million people. And we’ll fly in there. You’ll land early in the morning on a Friday morning, and my team will meet you at the airport. We’ll take you there to the hotel. We’ll get you checked in, you’ll sleep, and then that’s a free day in Manaus. And so we’ve got a really fun aeroplane. A day trip that you could do. 00:15:28 Dave: Oh, nice. 00:15:29 Michael: About an hour outside of the city, which is just, you know, to sight fish to a one hundred and fifty pound airplane is really, really cool. Um, and then you can come back in the afternoon or we can do fun city tours or people can just rest and that’s an insurance day. And what that means is your luggage gets lost and it doesn’t arrive with you. It’ll arrive the next day. So that way every, you know, I can sleep better at night knowing that the guests can, you know, they’re, they’re gonna arrive with all the stuff they need. So then the next morning, then we go out to town, out to dinner in town, and just have a lot of fun in Manaus. And then the next morning, you hop on a private charter flight and grand caravan, and you’ll fly an hour and twenty minutes over the jungle canopy and is just mind boggling that you. It’s trees, as far as I can see. Um, and if the pilot is kind, he’ll point out where there are two no contact indigenous tribes that we fly right over. And so you can actually see the big long house. You can see the, um, where they live and how they live. And it’s, um, it’s just an area that the government has just, um, you know, they’ve just closed off any kind of outside contact to protect them. So it kind of gives you an idea of how remote we are and how special it is. And then that plane lands right on the river right in front of camp. And so our guides will be waiting in their boats, and they’ll pick you up and we’ll have a great lunch, and then we’ll have a bonus day of fishing. And, uh, we fished till about five o’clock and come back and have appetizers and cocktails and dinner and tell some stories. And, um, then we have, uh, six full days of fishing. 00:17:16 Dave: Yeah. 00:17:16 Dave: And so that, so when you land, so you come in on the, the charter plane and you land on a strip, just a normal runway strip near the lodge. And then do you get on the mothership from there or is this at the lodge? 00:17:28 Michael: No, this is at the lodge. We actually land on the river. 00:17:30 Dave: So. Oh you do? 00:17:31 Dave: Oh, so this is a. Yeah. You’re landing on the river? 00:17:33 Michael: Yep. So amphibious and that way, you know, um, like this camp we’re in right now doesn’t move. But in the past, if we need to, we have a camp that’s mobile that we can move up and down the river. And so that way the planes can just find us and, and land wherever we are. It’s really, really nice. 00:17:49 Dave: Oh, okay. 00:17:49 Dave: Yeah. Gotcha. So when people come in and it sounds like you have a few different operations or programs here, but one option is landing there at the lodge. And then you’re kind of are you fishing out of that lodge for the week? Or are you going out and kind of going to certain areas and kind of posting up there? 00:18:05 Michael: Yep. You know, we have such a long strip of river here, almost fifty miles, and we were right dead center in the middle of that. And so we can stay here the whole week and just fish, you know, upriver or downriver, uh, as much as we want. And we’re not hitting those places twice, you know? 00:18:23 Dave: That’s cool. And is the species, um, maybe talk about that. What are your top species that people are coming there for. 00:18:29 Michael: Yeah. You know, the number one target species is the peacock bass, which is the. That’s the one you always see the pictures of. That’s the biggest, the baddest, the brightest, the most beautiful. And ASU a c u is basically a term that the riverbank people give for anything on the river. That’s the biggest and the baddest. So like the biggest caiman, um, is, uh, ASU jacaré. 00:18:55 Dave: And okay. 00:18:56 Michael: That kind of gives you an idea. So ASU is the fully adult, full, um, sexually mature peacock bass. And, uh, they are very, very special, very hard to catch. Um, they will absolutely make the rod out of your hand if you’re not paying attention. Um, and then, uh, the smaller fish, smaller peacock bass is called a paca and it looks very, very different, very dark in color with yellow lateral line, yellow lateral Uh, markings and then a beautiful gray tail with a red spot. And even though it looks completely different from the OSU, genetically it’s the same. But it is the teenager. 00:19:39 Dave: Oh, wow. So it’s the same species, essentially. It’s just. 00:19:42 Dave: Same species. Gotcha. 00:19:45 Michael: And they are incredibly powerful. Uh, you know, I love it when a guests catches his first Paca because he swears it’s a ten pound fish and it’s all he can do to hold on to it. And he brings it in. It’s about it’s about three pounds. You know. 00:19:59 Dave: It’s just kidding. Beat him up. 00:20:01 Michael: Yeah, I love it. 00:20:03 Dave: That is. 00:20:04 Dave: Great. 00:20:04 Michael: And then, uh, we have butterfly peacock bass, which really run small. One, two, three pounds would be average. Our camp record is eight pounds. Um, Wendy Gunn literally caught that on her first cast here during a bonus day. She got an eight pound butterfly and all the guys are losing their minds. She’s like great. is this the whole week going to be like this? 00:20:26 Dave: He’s like, no. 00:20:28 Michael: It’s not. 00:20:29 Dave: Oh, man. 00:20:30 Michael: But the butterfly make up for their size and just their sheer number. If a guest catches or hooks into a butterfly, it’s really common to look behind that and you’ll see a half a dozen others coming up trying to get the fly out of the mouth of. 00:20:46 Dave: Oh, wow. Yeah. 00:20:48 Dave: And is the butterfly a the same species of peacock or is this a different species? 00:20:52 Michael: It’s a different species. Yeah. Yeah. And they’re really small, bright, bright colors. Just stunningly beautiful fish fight really hard and are quite simple to very easy to catch. And so a lot of times we will target those fish on our first day just to kind of get people, you know, it’s good for their confidence, but it’s good for them to understand where the fly needs to land, what the presentation looks like, what the hook set should be like. So we can really learn on those fish. And then as the day goes by or as the week goes by, we can start targeting locations that hold the bigger fish because the guests are ready for that opportunity. 00:21:32 Dave: Gotcha. 00:21:32 Dave: Wow. This is great. Well, I want to get into a little bit on the fishing because I think there’s always some. It’s interesting. I love hearing about different species, but I want to check in on Christy. Are you still with us? Christy? Everything good with you? 00:21:43 Kristi: Yes. I’m here. Is this any better? 00:21:45 Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds good. Um, so. Yeah, I guess we’re rolling here. Does this all tracking with you? It sounds like. Are you? Before we jump into the a few of the tips and tricks where you’re at, are you kind of, uh, kind of running the program out in Georgia? Maybe describe your what you’re doing while Michael’s sitting there, you know, kind of on site. 00:22:02 Kristi: Yeah. Well, Michael is kicking back and fishing every day. You mean like that day? 00:22:06 Dave: Yeah. 00:22:07 Dave: Right, right, exactly. 00:22:08 Speaker 6: Wait a minute. Someone else is cooking his meals. 00:22:11 Kristi: Someone’s cleaning his. 00:22:12 Speaker 6: Bed. 00:22:13 Dave: I know it’s a rough life, but somebody’s got to do it right. 00:22:16 Kristi: Someone’s gotta do it. Well, no, I’m not really running the full operation. Michael really handles so much of that, and our travel partners handle the logistics for the the airfares and all that. So mostly I am, um, putting out any fires that come up here, um, getting ahead for the next season and running the household. 00:22:37 Dave: There you. 00:22:38 Dave: Go. Yeah. That’s, I mean, there’s obviously a lot to do because there’s definitely fires that come up and it’s I’m sure Michael’s sitting there, you know, having you there, right. To have support I’m sure is a huge, uh, bonus. Um, which is great. But, um, and have you now throughout the year, is this something where you’re able to get out to the lodge or do you spend most of your time kind of there? 00:22:58 Kristi: Yes. Well, I am always dreaming about my next trip down to Brazil. I sometimes in the fall we make it. The sun has a break during the school season, um, that we can sometimes go down and then some. This year we went down in the winter season, so we were glad to have that opportunity. It’s two different fishing opportunities, two different experiences. And we just have to go with the flow of the family schedule. 00:23:22 Dave: I hear you. Yeah, we’re the same way. We’re. I’m getting ready for this trip that I’ve been doing since I was a little kid. It’s one of those annual trips I’ve done for forty years, you know, and and I really, my daughters have been on it, but now they’re, they’re, you know, in middle school. And one of them really doesn’t want to miss school. And I’m sitting there thinking, well, I mean, that’s good, right? But it’s like, oh, man, I really want to have them experience the trip, you know what I mean? But it is a challenge because of course, you know, the kids are there and you don’t want to take them out of their thing. And they’ve got to, you know, stay up to speed on things. So it sounds like you’re in the same world as we are. 00:23:53 Kristi: Yes. We just entered middle school for this year. And so February, we took him for two months, two weeks and just played hooky because we knew it would get harder. But I, I’m sure many people in the industry experience the same thing. There are times where our son is very interested in fishing. Sometimes he just wants to be with dad on the boat, and sometimes he’s like, hey, I’m going to catch a fish right over there. And before you know it, the fly or the lure is going through the air and you just see our mouths have hit the floor. Sometimes watching our son pick up a rod and catch things on demand. 00:24:31 Speaker 6: When. 00:24:31 Dave: He’s. 00:24:32 Kristi: Just has had little interest. But, you know, to his credit, he’s had to put in some very long fishing days. And I remember last year I hit a honey hole. And so I was having a great time. And for whatever reason, he was probably hungry. Middle morning. 00:24:48 Dave: Right. 00:24:48 Kristi: And, um, I would not quit. And he was just asleep on the deck of the boat. 00:24:53 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:24:54 Kristi: It was done with it. 00:24:55 Dave: Oh that’s awesome. That’s sweet. Well, this is good stuff. I love to the family operation, obviously. I think that’s great that you’re able to kind of put all this together. Um, you know, and I guess, you know, back on the fishing. So that’s something I’d love to hear because, you know, we talk about a lot of different species out there. Maybe, you know, Michael, I think the, the sight fishing, I feel like is always the, it seems like it’s the top right. It’s like any type of surface or site. Fishing is kind of the ultimate. Describe that. Like take us to the fishing. What does that look like? Are we standing. Does first describe the boat we’re on? Are we on a boat? Describe that a little bit. 00:25:29 Michael: Yeah. At this location, we run smaller boats. Uh, they’re about eighteen feet long. And, um, we use those because they’re narrow and they run shallow. So we can get into those lakes if we need to. We can kind of cut our way into places. But on a, on a typical setup where the guide’s just moving along the shoreline, a lot of times we’re just casting to structure. Um, these fish really love structure. They literally will lean on a tree, a submerged tree. And so we really urge our guests to just get that fly as close to the tree as possible. Hit, hit the tree if possible. Um, and the great thing is about these fish. They’re such predators, you know, they’re they’re really they’re really the apex predator in this river. So they’re not afraid of anything. And the only way that they should be afraid of anything is if they’re injured. Otherwise they can outmaneuver anything that’s here. We’ve got pink dolphin. Gray dolphin, we’ve got um caiman. Um, any of those things will eat a peacock, but they can’t. The, the peacock can always get away from them. So anyways they’re not afraid of anything. So if you can make the cast that that fly lands right in front of their face and then you move it away that, you know, now I could put a camera under the water and you’ll see so many baitfish. And if you look at our Instagram, you see some of the released shots as we have underwater, you’ll see that fish is holding underwater and there’s thirty, forty, fifty baitfish swimming around it. Um, so he has food available all the time, but if you put it in front of their face and move it away, they want it. They want to kill it. 00:27:10 Dave: They want to hunt it. 00:27:11 Michael: Right? Yeah. And so what happens is they’ll follow it and follow it and follow it. And most of the strikes that we get are within a rod’s length away from us, right in front of us. So you see every strike, uh, which just that’s just remarkable. You don’t have many fisheries like you literally see every strike. And, you know, I literally have watched them. David come up, look at my fly, look at me and look at the fly and eat the fly. 00:27:42 Dave: They don’t care. Wow. You know? Right. They’re just so interested in in that thing. They’re just like, they gotta check it out. 00:27:48 Michael: They just light up. And it’s the one reason is, is because if there’s one that you’ve pulled out, there’s three or four or five or six more down below looking at it. So it’s like if one doesn’t eat it, the other one will. Um, but here’s the fascinating thing. If that cast isn’t right, if let’s say your fly landed three feet away from that tree, you’ll swear there were no fish on that bank. 00:28:12 Dave: Oh. No kidding. 00:28:13 Michael: You see nothing. Nothing. You know. So guess what? Come in at lunch. It’s like, man, we just didn’t see it. We worked so hard, we didn’t see any fishing. Oh, yeah. He talked to the guy, and it’s like, uh, they’re casting. They just can’t. 00:28:25 Dave: Quite. 00:28:25 Michael: They’re they’re just afraid that their flies will get stuck in the trees. It’s like, no, get em in there. It’s fine, you know? Hey, I fished with the guides. Trust me, they’re flies are in the trees all day long. It’s no big deal. It’s fine. 00:28:37 Dave: Yeah. Is this the tip there? The. Almost like he almost hit it. Or the drag and drop where you just get. I mean, how do you guys avoid breaking off every. Let’s say you have somebody who’s not the greatest caster, you know, how do you get them dialed in and avoid losing tons of flies? 00:28:51 Michael: Well, we don’t lose flies. We run really heavy tippet. And we always, we always go in and get the fly from the tree. 00:28:57 Dave: Oh, yeah. Yeah. There you go. 00:28:58 Michael: It’s not a big deal because again, these fish don’t they don’t fish from the boat. I’m sorry. They don’t spook from the boat. They don’t spook from us. Um, interestingly enough, the only thing I’ve seen that really makes them scatter is fly line going over their heads. 00:29:13 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:29:15 Michael: Which is fascinating. So if you make, if you’re the kind of angler that needs to make three, four false casts before you drop it in the water, which makes me just scream on the inside. Yeah. Um, you know, if you’re that kind of angler, you’re not going to see any fish here because those fish are gone. But the beauty of the fly lines that we use, it’s a special jungle line taper from scientific anglers. I literally do one back cast, one forward cast. And I’m fishing. 00:29:42 Dave: Yeah. That’s it. 00:29:43 Michael: Yeah. 00:29:44 Dave: Yeah. That’s always the best advice, right? The least amount of false casts is better. 00:29:50 Michael: Every guy just to himself is just saying, drop it, drop it. Okay. Fish that just drop it. Just get the fly in the water. 00:29:56 Dave: Yeah. Just get in the water. Right. What is the, um, the flies like, describe the fly a little bit. What’s like size and what are you guys imitating there. 00:30:03 Michael: I guess. Guests arrive thinking they need to throw really big flies and our fish will eat big flies. But if you look at their bait that they’re eating, um, a lot of times it’s not that big at all. So our ideal fly would be around four or five inches long. Um, but you know, three dot four dot hook is perfect. Uh, we really, we fish a lot of Puglisi flies. Uh, they’re just ideal for us because they’re, um, you know, any of their kind of mangrove or inshore flies are just awesome here because guests can throw them, you know, they’re easy to cast. 00:30:39 Dave: Yeah. 00:30:40 Michael: Uh, they have a great profile. They’re very durable. And, uh, it’s just a really, really good way to go. Some of our other favorites are, you know, just closers and deceivers. Yeah. Uh, I swear, if I just had to make a living, just just eating peacock bass. If I had to survive here, I would just. I would fish a deceiver all day. 00:30:59 Dave: Yeah, it was interesting. We just did a podcast recently with with Bob Clouser. Oh yeah. We got the whole story on him creating. And it was really interesting because, I mean, lefty, you know, kind of befriended him really out of, you know, and they became good buddies. But yeah, it’s interesting because you got lefty deceiver, which is the unweighted version, right, for the most part. And then you’ve got Bob’s the Clouser Minnow, which has the beat, right, which has some weight on it. But it’s an interesting story because he actually created that fly. The Clouser Minnow was created for bass. That was originally what it was for bass, right back in the Susquehanna River. And then it kind of evolved with lefty traveling the world. You know, I’m sure lefty was this amazing guy, right? He took that fly everywhere and caught like eighty five species on it. So it was kind of a good story. 00:31:39 Michael: I believe it, it’s such a go to. I now I’ll preface this with I’m not a fly tyer. Some people really love to fly tie flies. I’ve tied a million flies in my life, but it doesn’t mean I enjoyed it. You know, I know. 00:31:54 Dave: I know, me too. 00:31:55 Michael: I am really in the camp of presentation over pattern, and I really see people just obsessing over there patterns and just convinced it works because it has this and this and this. 00:32:09 Dave: Right. 00:32:09 Michael: And they may be right. I shouldn’t say they’re wrong, but you know that they really love that stuff. They eat that up and I get it. They love those details. But for me, I just see all the time where people have the right patterns, but they’re not catching fish because it’s not the right presentation. Let’s work on presentation because I can show you what’s going to trigger these fish, regardless of what fly you’ve got there. These fish, they want to hunt something down and kill it. And they’re not doing that because it happens to have, you know, a bit of green here and a little bit of yellow here. They’re doing it because it’s in their face and it’s not going away fast, you know. Does that make sense? 00:32:42 Dave: Yeah. Oh yeah. It totally makes sense. And as you think about that, I always go back to thinking of Phil Roy, our littoral zone kind of Stillwater host. And he talks a lot about, he calls it his DRP depth retrieve pattern. Like the most important things and pattern is the least important, right? It’s depth. Getting to the right depth of the fish and then retrieve is number two, and then it’s pattern, right? And it sounds like this is kind of similar where you got to get in front of them. That’s the most important thing. And then there’s some sort of retrieve and then yeah, patterns. The last thing you’re thinking about sounds like absolutely one hundred percent. 00:33:12 Michael: And what’s really fun about that moment of you’re literally at the boat, you’re bringing the, you’re lifting the fly up to cast again, and you’ve got three or four or five fish coming at it. You know, you literally can just drop that right back into the water and just kind of dance the rod tip to the side and they’ll jump over it and hit it and hammer it. And then then they’re taking line. It’s such a hard thing to share with people just how exciting that is. 00:33:38 Dave: What is that like? How would you describe that? So you got your stripping in and they hit it. What is the first hit like? And then what’s how do they fight and describe that a little bit? 00:33:47 Michael: The first hit and the first run is the biggest. And I tell people, especially if it’s a big fish, it’s just like, imagine you’ve tied your fly line to a two year old golden, uh, yellow lab. 00:34:00 Dave: Right? 00:34:01 Michael: You’ve thrown it and you’ve thrown a tennis ball. 00:34:03 Dave: Oh, geez. 00:34:04 Michael: It’s just like. I mean, you don’t want to have your fly line wrapped behind your, you know. Now, we generally don’t let these fish run. Uh, we just have to stop them. And that’s why we fish this heavy tippet and heavy lines and heavy rods, because they will go straight to the trees, wrap around the trees, and you’re done. And it can happen in a blink of an eye. 00:34:25 Dave: Right. 00:34:25 Michael: And there are two strategies to that. Um, and if I have eight guides, four of them will have will push one strategy and four of them will push the other. But half the guides will say, just lock them down, just put the line up against the cork and stop them. 00:34:41 Dave: Yeah. 00:34:42 Michael: And um, keep the rod down low, fight them from the grip and put the flex at the grip of the rod. And just do your best to stop them. Now a big ASU, you’re not going to stop them, but in theory you just want to put as much pressure on them as you can. Turn his head so he’s not going for the underground. For the submerged trees. Yeah. Um, the other half of the guys just say, just let him run. Let him go. He’ll get wrapped up in the trees. I’ll swim down and I’ll get him for you. 00:35:08 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:35:09 Michael: And that’s from a safety standpoint. I’m not super psyched about the guys taking risks like that. You know, everything we do as a as an outfitter is, you know, safety is, um, an assessment that we every decision we make, we run through just like, what’s our risk? What’s, you know, what are we doing that we can reduce our risk and, but the guys, you know, that’s how they, they live here. They, it’s very common for them to do it. Um, and it’s a sure way for the guests to get that fish, but it’s like, it’s not quite the same as bringing that fish in on your own, right? Pulling it up to the net. You know, they make so many big, powerful runs. You, you just I know it’s hard to believe, but I, I think of a Jack Crevalle. Imagine the first run of a Jack Crevalle. Um, they don’t have peacock bass. Don’t have the same staying power. They definitely have some big, powerful runs and then they’ll come in. But those first runs will just shock you. Uh, people, I’ve had guests just sit down and stop fishing. They’re just like, what the heck, right? 00:36:11 Dave: Like a freight train. Just just going. 00:36:13 Michael: Yeah, yeah. Just that power is insane. 00:36:17 Dave: Oh. That’s cool. No, that’s so good. That’s one of those things that. Yeah, you’re just trying to get a feel for what it looks like. And I’m sure, like you said, you got some good stuff on Instagram people can take a look at to get a better feel of the fish. But so you got this powerful fish and you have a mix. Maybe talk about a little bit on some of the other species, you know, out there. So you’ve got this one, which is obviously a big one. You mentioned Arapaima. Um, what are some of the other ones that people might be catching out there? There’s a few, there’s three different species of the peacock bass. 00:36:44 Michael: Yes. Uh, maybe four depending. It changes every, every year. But there’s another one called the polka. That’s just a beautiful green. Uh, it’s a green peacock bass with just a Beautiful blue dorsal fins. And they’re not big, but they’re just gorgeous. And you know, if you catch a mahi mahi, how it lights up under the water. That’s what they look like. And then you pull them out of the water and they’re gray, you know? Yeah. Right. Wow. A camera will never capture what you’re seeing at that moment. So it’s a really special moment. You just appreciate what you’re seeing. Um, but, you know, if, uh, there are other species and the great thing about these other species is they all eat the same fly because they’re eating the same baitfish. Oh, right. You know, and then we have a number of different baitfish. But if you match the right size, shape and general color, um, they’re all going to go for it. Uh, last year we had schools of payara coming through here. People call vampire fish. 00:37:42 Dave: Oh, yeah. The vampire fish. 00:37:44 Michael: These were, uh, machete pirates, so they’re a little smaller. Um, probably two and three pounds, but they’re so hard to hook. You’ll just feel this tap, tap tap tap tap tap. And they’re just three or four of them trying to eat the fly, and you just can’t get a hook in them. Um, but when you’ve got one hundred of them in front of you, it’s fine. You’re going to hook one. 00:38:03 Dave: You are. So you guys get some, uh, now describe the vampire fish. You guys are able to see some of those each trip. 00:38:10 Michael: Yeah. Not each trip. They just, they show up and then they just show, I think. Yeah, last year we had them for about two weeks. Oh, wow. And we, they ate poppers like crazy. We had so much fun. And then they were gone. Um, yeah. You know, just I love again, it’s the unpredictability of the fishery. I really, really enjoy it. Um, the lakes that we go into will have, uh, arowana and, uh, arowana are just, they’re surface feeders. Um, you should have your guests just Google what they look like. 00:38:39 Dave: Yeah. How do you spell arowana? Arowana? 00:38:40 Michael: Uh, well, it depends on who you ask, but a r o w a n a. 00:38:46 Dave: Oh, yeah. Arowana. Yeah, yeah. Oh, right. Yeah. Arowana. Wow. 00:38:50 Michael: Beautiful fish. Now, what’s cool about them is they call them monkey fish here because they are designed to eat on the surface. They are designed to literally jump out of the water and eat a spider off a branch, two or three feet in the air. And so they school. And so in our lakes, if we see a school of those, um, I’ll throw an eight weight with a big Chernobyl on it. And interestingly enough, it takes a little enticing, you know, they’ll come up and look at it and drop down, circle around, look at it again. It’s kind of like a trout. You ever thrown a dry fly on the green, you know, before flaming gorge, how they’ll just sit there and inspect it and you just holding your breath, just like, eat it, eat it, eat it. 00:39:30 Dave: Oh, man. That’s the best. That’s the best. 00:39:32 Speaker 6: Yes. 00:39:32 Michael: That’s how these arowana, they’ll just they’re I think they’re counting the legs. And so, um, but when they finally eat it, it’s just, you know, everyone in the boats is like, yes. So, so fun. And they’re, they’re really beautiful. And they, they jump like a, like a lady fish, you know, they’re just constantly cartwheeling when you hook into them. And we don’t have really big ones here. Uh, but again, it’s just a really nice variety in the day if you just want to do something a little bit different. 00:40:01 Dave: Yeah. And it has a really interesting body morphology. The tail fin on the arowana is really, it almost doesn’t have one, right? It’s very small. 00:40:10 Michael: It’s just straight. And when they swim, it looks like a ribbon in the water. 00:40:14 Dave: Yeah. It looks like it. When you look at it, you’re like, it looks like something’s missing from the fish, right? Because it’s so different. 00:40:18 Michael: Yes, precisely. 00:40:20 Speaker 6: It’s almost like it didn’t. 00:40:21 Kristi: Get finished being made. 00:40:23 Speaker 6: Yeah. Babe, you remember. 00:40:24 Kristi: The very first one we caught, Dave? We were not expecting arowana. We were in a lake and we were targeting trees that come down, big limbs that come down. Um, usually they fall over, they’re dead, and they make a if you’ve got a crotch in the tree, a v in the tree, you’ve got one branch going in on each side, you’re probably going to have a large peacock on either side of those tree branches. So we’re really targeting those bees going in. 00:40:52 Dave: And okay. 00:40:53 Kristi: Sorry, I see something floating and it. We don’t see a lot of floating branches in this fishery. So we were like, well, what is that? And had no expectation. But we’re like, oh, well, we’ll throw a fly at it. So, um, I think it may have been a Clouser babe and, uh, got it right away. Oh it jumped. It was so pretty. And they are unpredictable. Wow. So we can’t count on having them. But there are a lot of fun when we have them. 00:41:21 Dave: Yeah. God, this is great. Yeah. You have a lot of definitely a lot of diversity really. I mean, there’s I mean, obviously it’s the Amazon, but yeah, there’s a lot of fly species you can catch. I mean, we’re starting to you mentioned the arowana arapaima payara peacock bass. I mean, these are all big, right? Big names that most people probably have heard of, right? 00:41:39 Michael: Absolutely. I smile when arowana appear in the lakes because for reasons I can’t explain, if there are arowana in the lake. There are arapaima in the lake. 00:41:49 Dave: Oh, right. 00:41:51 Michael: Almost every time. And now the air prima. Easily the most difficult fish for me to catch. I’ve never experienced a more more challenging fish to catch than an arapaima. 00:42:02 Dave: And these are the mass. These are the gigantic. The ones that can get to however long. 00:42:07 Michael: Yeah, giant. It’s the world’s largest scaled freshwater fish. 00:42:11 Dave: Oh it is. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Because they can get up to. I mean, you see some of these photos, they’re like eight feet long and. Right. They’re just huge. 00:42:17 Michael: Yep. You know, I’ve personally seen one two hundred and fifty pounds. Oh, wow. I know where he lives. 00:42:23 Dave: No kidding. 00:42:24 Michael: Yeah. My personal biggest is one eighty, but honestly, a fifty or sixty pounder is just perfect. 00:42:31 Dave: Just perfect. Right. 00:42:33 Michael: Um, and, babe, I haven’t even told you this, but, uh, just two days ago, we went into a lake and I counted six there. In there. Um, we normally we’ll see one or two a week. They, they kind of, they breach, they breathe air. 00:42:47 Dave: And yeah, they’re air breathers, right? 00:42:49 Speaker 6: Yeah. 00:42:49 Michael: They’re, they’re very much like a, a freshwater tarpon in a lot of ways. And so they’ll come up and breathe air and they’ll, um, splash their tails if they know we’re there. And, uh, you know, we were fishing in a lake where if you have time, I’ll make it brief. But yeah, fishing to this. We went to this lake, we had to cut our way in. And I mean, it’s just like if God would make a perfect peacock bass lake, this was it. You know, just like the way the trees were, the way the the structure was. It was just absolutely perfect. And, you know, we got music playing, we’re hanging out. We’re just having fun making these really easy, fun casts. And we suddenly realized it’s been like forty five minutes. We haven’t seen a single fish. And it’s like, all right, well, something’s up. Let’s it’s hot. Let’s just take a break. And so we turn off the music. We went into the shade, we just kicked back and, um, just rested a little bit, which is an important thing here. You just you’ve got to take those breaks from the sun and, um, all of a sudden splash and then over there, splash and then over there splash. And they were, the whole place was filled with arapaima. Oh my gosh. We had no idea. And they are so susceptible to noise. Um, they will disappear if there’s any noise going on out there. I mean, literally people who hear fish whisper in the boats, they don’t, they don’t. Yeah. So, you know, of course we come barging in, blasting music. Um, there’s no way we’re going to see. But when we were quiet, sure enough, we just sat there and watched them. They were huge. I think the biggest I saw was about one thirty, I’m guessing probably about six and a half, seven, seven feet long, maybe longer. And that’s just special. You just you never know what’s. 00:44:38 Dave: Going. 00:44:39 Michael: Swimming around you, you know. 00:44:41 Dave: That’s great. And are there one of the things you know, you hear about, you know, some people that have never been to that area, there may be the dangers right out there. Is there anything to be worried about? Like things in the water, things in the forest. You know, the bugs, the any of that stuff? 00:44:55 Michael: Absolutely. I’m so glad you asked that question because it’s critical. Um, as I listen to other outfitters present their, their fisheries, they tend to really make light of it. And I’m like, no, no, no. You’ll be fine. You’ll be fine. Everything’s fine. 00:45:09 Dave: Yeah. Because you’re in a place that, I mean, you’re this is pretty extreme, right? You mentioned it. You’re out there in the middle of nowhere. 00:45:14 Michael: Right. Absolutely. And I would just say, you know, what kind of person are you? And here’s what I mean. If, you know, there are people who look at a candle and they just have to touch the flame, right? You know, there’s people like that. Um, you know, this is not a great place for you if that’s who you are. Uh, I mean, literally there are people they’ll catch a piranha. They’re like, I wonder what would happen if I put my finger close to those teeth. I mean, so know, you just have to have really good common sense and you have to really trust our people because there certainly are risks here. You’re in the middle of the jungle. Um, but I answered this way. I live in Atlanta. You know, there are some really safe, good places in Atlanta. There are some extremely dangerous places in Atlanta, and I know where to go. I know where not to go, and I know how to handle myself. And so here my guides know where to go. They know where not to go. And, you know, if you’re walking through a trail, you know, you follow where the guide goes, you don’t go off trail. And if the guide says, you know, we don’t swim here, we don’t walk the beach here. You know, you just you follow their lead and you’re fine. You know, if you’re willing to really listen and watch my people, this is a very safe place, no doubt. But, you know, if you look up in the guide is swinging his machete, you know, you don’t go stand next to him and take a photo of him, right. Because. Right, he’s swinging a machete. But you know, there are people like that, that and, and to be honest, um, we’re, you know, our guests are on vacation and, you know, a lot of times when I go on vacation, I just kind of leave my brain at the door, you know, just things I’m not paying attention with. And, you know, this is a place you want to pay attention, right? 00:47:01 Dave: Yeah. You got to be aware of your surroundings. There’s, there’s some, but that’s good advice. I always feel like, yeah, you’ve got your guide there. They know everything. They’ve been there. So so stay close to them. And like anywhere in the world, you know, you go to Alaska or anywhere else, you got to, you got to be aware there’s bears around, you know, same sort of thing. 00:47:16 Michael: Um, exactly. You know, I think people have a vision, a visual of what this place is like. They think there’s bugs everywhere, mosquitoes everywhere and snakes everywhere. And here’s the crazy thing. So there are no mosquitoes here. 00:47:29 Dave: Oh, wow. No mosquitoes at all. 00:47:31 Michael: Yeah. And you know, I don’t expect anyone, any of your listeners to believe me. It’s okay. You don’t have to believe me. But there are no mosquitoes here in our fisheries. Um, if you were to walk into the into a village or a community, um or you’re in Manaus, you know, where there’s standing water, like rain water that’s in a bucket. There’s mosquitoes there. You know, there’s a mosquito in your hotel room, no doubt. But here on the river, they can’t live in this water. Um the larva. So there are no mosquitoes. Um, it’s a jungle. There’s bugs. Certainly. Um the only thing, you know, every now and then we might get some noseeums. Um but that is rare. Thankfully it’s like a fifteen minute period right before dark that they might come out. Um, but you wear long sleeves and long pants and you’re fine. Yeah. Um, you know, there are bees here for sure. And I tell people, you know, most of these bees we see are honey bees. So if you see, you know, you don’t bug them, they’re not going to bug you. Um, one time we were having a barbecue, we were having lunch on the beach for the guests. And I was noticing there were quite a few bees over there. And I’m like, hey, just guys, just if you leave them alone, they’ll leave you alone. It’s no big deal. As I said that, I walked over and sat down on my bass tracker and I sat on a bee. 00:48:51 Dave: Oh, man. 00:48:53 Michael: And he stung me. And I’m just trying to decide. Okay, do I tell them? Do I just stay quiet? And they all look. 00:48:59 Dave: Like. 00:48:59 Michael: They could tell immediately what had just happened? Oh yeah. I had just finished telling them not to worry about it, and I just got stung by a bee in the butt. 00:49:08 Dave: There you go. So there are some. Yeah, there’s some things just to be aware of, but no, that’s good to know. And obviously that’s why, you know, I’m sure there’s a way you could DIY a Brazil trip, right? But I feel like this is why you go with the lodge. And because it’d be hard to do, it’d be hard to do and stay safe, right? To do it on. 00:49:24 Michael: It would be hard to do. Um, and honestly, I mean, if everything was saved, you know, there’s, there are a lot of outfitters here. There’s a lot of great outfitters here. If you’re a fly angler in particular, you have very limited options. 00:49:37 Dave: Oh, really? Yeah. 00:49:38 Michael: Really limited options, you know. Uh, for guys throwing gear, all they need is a I hate to say this in a lot of ways. You just need a boat driver. You need someone who’s just going to put you in position and you can just cover every spot. You just have so many more options if you’re throwing lures. It’s just easier to cover water. But with a fly angler, um, you know, with our guests, uh, you know, there’s limitations of how far they can cast and limitations of not tying and limitations of understanding. Okay. AM I is my speed right? AM I too slow? AM I too fast? And so you really need a guide who’s specialized in working with fly anglers. And so we do training every year, just trying to help new guides coming in because it’s, it’s a completely. I tell them it’s the difference between someone with a truck driving license and an aircraft pilot license. 00:50:35 Dave: Oh, right. 00:50:36 Michael: It’s just a completely different world. It doesn’t mean that you’re not a good guy. It just means there’s a whole new skill set that you need to learn, and we’re happy to teach it to you. So I think. 00:50:46 Dave: And are your guides, your local you have guides that you’re training the local. Yes. Indigenous people there. 00:50:52 Michael: Yes. And, uh, this particular river, uh, our entire staff is from one community. And so they’re all family, they all know each other. And um, every two or three weeks they’ll rotate through and we’ll have a new group in the kitchen, a new group of guides. But the great thing is we’ve worked with them for years, so we know all of them. Um, but they just come in and it’s a good way to kind of spread the income. Everyone gets a little piece of the income and it also gives them some time off to rest. So it’s a really good system, but we do have a rotating, uh, staff for sure. 00:51:29 Dave: Gotcha. Wow. This is great. Well, this has been awesome. I want to just take it out of here pretty quick, and I want to get some, some tips, maybe some travel tips and all of that. But I did want to hear about a little bit about you have a nonprofit you work with before we get out of here, and we’ll be following up with you because again, I think we want to go deeper on some other trip or some species and things like that. But I don’t know, Christy, if maybe you want to jump in and give us a little heads up on your nonprofit and what you have going there so people can kind of be aware of that. 00:51:57 Speaker 6: Sure. 00:51:57 Kristi: Well, um, it also is impacted by each season of our fishing. But along the way, one thing we learned is that as we’re respecting the people and their communities and their resources, because they’re letting us into their fishery, you know, what we found was there’s some great needs, especially around the idea of clean water. And it’s a counterintuitive to North American going down to this huge river basin to even think about water crises. But we have two different issues. One is when the water is high, their water sources, their wells will get flooded out there. 00:52:39 Speaker 6: And get. 00:52:39 Kristi: Flooded out. And so their water will get contaminated and just in their, um, path of life that they’ve learned from ancestors, you know, drinking water that they have ready access to becomes the second main issue. They don’t even realize how sick they are. And they think dysentery is just a normal way of life. 00:53:03 Speaker 6: Oh, wow. 00:53:04 Kristi: So we’re able in the communities that we impact when we’re in their fisheries, we’re able to deliver clean water filters as a primary tool to help them overcome this episode. That really doesn’t contribute to a great level of health. And so that’s one of our main things with, uh, dentist on our staff. That’s been a huge way to give back to the communities. And even like the guides, you know, if you are guiding in one of these remote locations, you’re not seeking dental care. And for many of these communities, even if they have access to government provided healthcare, it’s very irregular. Or when that medical professional is in town, they don’t have the gasoline to get down there by boat. So, um, a lot of times we’ll have either a nurse or amazingly, we’ve been fortunate to have so many medical professionals travel with us and they’re often so glad to put their skills to use. So that’s how our nonprofit goes alongside of what we do with the fishing company. And we call it parallel resource because literally, it’s just hand and glove parallel to the fishing business that we are serving these under-resourced communities near fisheries. And, uh, it’s been a great impact over the years. We love when we get a chance to take our guests into the communities. That’s always a highlight. We just have to recognize that in some of the regions, such as this fall fishery, we don’t have access to those communities. They’re just too far away. Um, we interact with the guides, we interact with our staff that comes from the communities, but we just don’t get to make visits with the guests. 00:54:46 Dave: Gotcha. Wow. Amazing. Yeah. And I’m looking at some photos here on your website. Um that’s amazing. So and if people are listening now, how can they help your nonprofit here? What’s the best way to get involved or help out? 00:55:00 Kristi: Financial donations help us as we serve the communities and during all the seasons. Truthfully, I know a boat showed up just this morning at base camp and whatever they needed, whether it was a food pack or fuel, we made sure that they had that. And so what we learned is that we need to, um, always be ready to meet needs because they expect that we will have something to serve them with, and we want to. We want to be as generous and our our guests want to be generous. They want to help these people. So it’s not inflating their economies. It’s not overrunning the resources that they have, but it’s supplementing things that they could never get access to. So financial donations are the best way. And then as often as possible, we’re making sure that we’re taking our guests into those communities to just interact and build relationships, have great cultural interactions. In February, we did one of those when I was on the trip. And and then when you see pictures later, the houses were built on stilts. And we love seeing their progress over the years. Now they’ve got talk about solar panels on top of these little huts. They’ve got their Starlink, the whole village. You see all this progress and you’re like, oh man, they’re making it. And then in the, um, in the fall, early summer, late summer, early fall, uh, the flooding was up to the bottom of the houses. And so once you see that difference, then you really realize the impact that some of our efforts make. 00:56:41 Dave: Yeah. Wow. That’s amazing. Yeah. And I see on the site, uh, there’s a section feel the Love, select sponsorship, empower communities. And this is great. So we’ll send folks out there. And I probably also just connecting with you to learn more about trips would be a good way to follow up on this. But let’s hear, I just want to get a couple of tips. I love the travel. Obviously travel, I feel like is a big part of these trips, right? You, I love kind of doing this. All the planes and all the you know that. What would be your best. Maybe Michael will start with you on our rapid fire round here. What’s a good travel tip? You’d be telling somebody if they’re planning on going on this trip with you. What’s one thing you’re telling them to have a better experience? 00:57:18 Michael: MM. That is such a good question. That’s a great question. 00:57:21 Dave: Yeah. Because there’s a lot to of of this right from the starting of basically, you know, getting your tickets and all that stuff. But yeah, I’m not sure if something comes to mind there. 00:57:31 Michael: Yeah. Give me a moment. I’ll think of something here. Yeah. 00:57:34 Dave: Yeah. Okay. As you’re thinking of that, let’s, um, I’m gonna jump over and I’m just going to kind of go back and forth a little bit to both of you. Christie. Let’s, uh, we’re going to let Michael think of that good travel tip. But for you, what do you think is something when people are listening or hearing about this trip? That’s kind of a misconception, something that they think that’s about, you know, Brazil or this area. Is there anything that kind of commonly comes up? And I’m not sure if you have something or if. Michael, you would be better to answer that one. 00:58:02 Kristi: Well, the issue of insect life definitely comes up repeatedly. And I love to point to the fact that we’ve had our son down there since he was a year and a half old, and. 00:58:12 Dave: Oh wow. 00:58:12 Speaker 6: Pictures. 00:58:13 Kristi: That we have of him running around in his diaper because it was hot, but he has no bugs on him and it’s just amazing. And we do run into bugs, but typically if they start bothering us, we can get away from them. So, um, that is definitely a misconception. I have not had guests complaining about heat and I describe it. It’s like a, it’s a late June early July day of carp fishing here in Atlanta. So it’s very reasonable. And, um, what I would share as something we’ve learned along the way as a family for our travel is we try to always have something to share along the way. So when Jackson was really little, he would pack extra Hot Wheels cars because no matter what the delay was in the airport, you could sit down and start playing with your Hot Wheels, and then you could share with another kid down the way. And that made such a difference because it got interacting with cultures along the way. And then when we were in Japan with some relief work years ago. It stuck with me after that time that when we took our break in the shade, people from Japan shared a hard candy with us and. 00:59:27 Dave: Oh. 00:59:28 Speaker 6: Like a Jolly. 00:59:29 Kristi: Rancher with fizz. 00:59:30 Speaker 6: So I remember to. 00:59:32 Kristi: The granular, you know, level of what that episode was, it was just so different than our candy. So traveling with a bag of hard candy is just a fun way to have a little interaction without any language skills cross-culturally. It’s a great way to share. Get a smile on a face. 00:59:50 Dave: Yeah, that’s part of the travel. It’s fun. I think that, you know, just all the culture, right? All the people you’re meeting around the world as you’re traveling. And I can imagine going into some of these, if you can go into some of these communities out there, would be amazing, right, to be able to be around those people. And because you, I think we sometimes take for granted what we have right in the US. The fact that quality of life, just the basics of water is such a basic thing that we take for granted, you know, and the fact that it’s it’s not everybody has that. Right. And you’re helping with that. 01:00:18 Kristi: Oh, quality of water is huge. Access to water, access to where you’re going to wash your clothes and just simple safety measures. We take so much for granted, but we have dangers that they don’t have. So we have, you know, heavy traffic. We have, um, so many other things that they don’t have, but it’s just different. 01:00:40 Dave: Yeah. It’s different. Well, Michael, back to you. Um, I have a question for you on this is one I like to is the luxury item question. So you’re traveling, you can’t take everything, although I’m sure people can take you there. What’s your luxury item? And I always think like, if I’m on a backpacking trip, you know, what’s that one thing you kind of throw in that, you know, is a little bit heavy, but you love it. Do you have a something, a luxury item you like traveling with when you’re out there? 01:01:03 Michael: All right. You’re gonna laugh. You’re gonna laugh. It’s okay. 01:01:05 Dave: Let’s hear it. 01:01:06 Michael: You can laugh at me. Um. Three years at a hotel. They had this absolutely beautiful, perfect blanket. And I just. I decided to take it with me and I. 01:01:18 Dave: There you go. You got your you got your blankie. 01:01:20 Michael: I have my blankie. I take it everywhere I go. It’s just perfect. And, uh, I finally talked to. I felt so guilty that I was staying at that hotel three weeks ago. And I talked to hotel manager, and he just laughed. He goes, it’s fine. You can keep it. 01:01:32 Dave: That’s awesome. Yeah. What type of blanket is this? Is this like a a nice wool blanket? Is this like what? What’s the. 01:01:39 Michael: Oh, no, it’s just a microfiber. But a lot of times, um, I, uh, you know, when we, when the camp is full with guests, I sleep in a hammock outside and it’s just the perfect people don’t believe me, but it gets a little chilly at night here. And it’s just the that’s my luxury item. Is that blanket. 01:01:55 Dave: There you go. I love it, I love it. Now that’s a good one. The blankie, that’s for sure. A good, good thing to have. Yeah, I was just we were just talking about we’re kind of getting ready for this camping trip. And we had an episode we did on backpacking, like ultra light camping and stuff. And it sounds like a lot of the ultralight hikers aren’t even using sleeping bags anymore because you don’t really need it. You know, you just need your, your, you know, your cushion that you sleep on. And then they just use like these down blankets is what they’re using now. 01:02:18 Michael: Mhm. That makes sense. 01:02:19 Dave: Right. And I feel like down for me, I love the microfiber, but when I go to materials and I’ve got this new thing I’m wearing, which is a Duckworth wool pullover thing, but I feel like wool and down are like my two. I love those two materials of. Right. But but the microfiber is nice too. It’s it’s synthetic, but it’s amazing. Well, we we. 01:02:39 Kristi: Learned when Jackson was in cloth diapers down there because I wasn’t going to bury or burn disposable diapers from the US that, uh, one big consideration with the humidity is you have to dry out cloth when the sun is shining. And so. 01:02:55 Dave: Oh, yeah. 01:02:56 Kristi: Whatever you’ve got in Brazil, it has to dry when the sun is shining. 01:03:00 Dave: Yeah. Gotcha. Nice. There you go. Well, I was going to just say on mine. You know, I’m always planning. I love the planning of the trips right before. That’s always the awesome thing. Getting the new reel, getting the new gear. It’s a fun part, but I have this app that I was using. It’s called the Camp and Hike app and I loved it. It just was easy. I had it on my iPhone for years and just this week or just when I was starting to plan, they. It doesn’t it’s not on. It’s not on Apple anymore. I think they just closed it up. And so I got to come up with a new app. But how do you guys do that with your gear planning? Do you have like a sheet that you go through and you, or what do you recommend for people that are coming in? Do you like, you know, planning for trips? Do you have a list of things. 01:03:35 Michael: You are so good. It’s like you’re reading my mind. Yes. 01:03:38 Dave: There we. 01:03:38 Michael: Go. Yeah. Um, we have a very detailed packing list and it’s I just tell people, consider everything on this list is mandatory. Uh, the hard thing. And you’re asking me earlier about a travel tip and yeah, it feeds right into this. So perfect. Um, guys that want to come down on this trip or anglers that want to come down, they want to bring so much extra stuff. I get it. They don’t want to be without, I totally understand or if something breaks. And I chatted to people. I tell people all the time. Just get the best quality that you can afford and just trust it. Um, you know, if you talk about deals, get the best quality reels, get the best quality lines. This is the trip where you don’t want to go bargain stuff. You get the best and a challenge for us and for almost every Amazon outfitter is that that charter flight has weight restrictions. So you’ve got thirty pounds that you can bring if you’re packing for reals. And suddenly it’s like, oh my gosh, I’m already at my full weight. You know, it’s just, it’s just, it’s easy to be over. And so I just tell people, so we do daily laundry. So you don’t need as many clothes as you think you do. Um, but for gear, get the best you can afford and just trust it and believe in it. And, um, if they’re bringing flies, I always say to go deeper instead of wider. And what that means is I wouldn’t go with, um, fifty different patterns. I would go with ten patterns and have a lot of them. That’s so much better than having three of these. Three of these, three of these. 01:05:21 Dave: Right. 01:05:22 Michael: Does that make sense? 01:05:22 Dave: Because yeah, it does. 01:05:24 Michael: We had a guest today who, um, we had an old, we have a display of old beat up lures and, uh, he just picked one off the log and he off, off the display and he goes, hey, I want to fish this today. I’m like, yeah, go for it. I said, I know that’s going to work. You know why this is the only one I have like it. 01:05:42 Dave: Right. 01:05:43 Michael: He came back. He’s like, I lost that lure. You were absolutely right. But you know, so in that case, you’re just so much better off having flies that, you know, are going to work, that you really trust and just go deep and make sure you’ve got a lot of those. And that’s how I pack. And it’s really been a successful strategy. 01:06:00 Dave: That’s good. No, that’s a good reminder. Yeah, I think I do that too. I sometimes I just take too much stuff, right? And you can if you had to, you could wear, you know, have one thing you’re wearing and one, you know, uh, something to wear if you know, you don’t need like three or four things or everything, right? Just a couple. So, so good reminder. Well, I think this is probably a good place to leave it today. Um, you know, like we said, we’ll send everybody out to nomadic waters dot com if they have questions or want to follow up on trips, any of that. And then I think if we can get you back on here, we will talk probably deeper into some of the species and fishing and all that. But, uh, definitely Christy, Michael, appreciate your time today. Thanks for putting this together. 01:06:40 Kristi: Hey, thanks, Dave. 01:06:41 Michael: It was a real pleasure. Thank you so much. 01:06:45 Dave: All right. Today’s takeaway. If you get a chance, please message nomadic waters. Let them know you’re interested in a trip. If you want to go on a trip with Wet Fly Swing Pro, check in with me. You can do that right now by email. If you are a pro member, just reach out and DM me in the group and we can have a chat. Uh, we’re building trips together all year long. We’re putting things together, looking ahead, and we’ve got a bunch of great content going there, including the recent boot camp that just wrapped up all that content now is in lives in Wet Fly Swing Pro, so all Pro members get access for that indefinitely. It’s amazing. We’ve got another boot camp that’s going to be coming up in February, uh, as well. And so we’re going to keep these things rolling out. This is our way to provide some extra value out there. If you’re interested in any trips or anything else, you can always check in with me and I’m going to get out of here. Thanks again for checking in all the way till the end. And I hope you’re having a great evening. Great morning or afternoon. We’ll talk to you very soon. See you then. 01:07:40 Speaker 7: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit Wet Fly swing dot com.