Hunting with a Fly #4 | Fly Fishing for Lake Trout in the Great Lakes with Jerry Darkes

WFS 973 Transcript 00:00:00 Rick: This is Rick Kustich author, guide and travel host, and you are tuned in to the Hunting with the Fly Podcast, where we dive deep into the strategy approach, flies and culture surrounding the fly fishing pursuit of apex fish like musky pike trophy trout and saltwater predators. Fooling a fish at the top of the food chain requires the focus and commitment to understand the quarry’s habits, going beyond simply casting and retrieving a fly. Each episode is geared towards information to improve your angling and enjoyment of the quest. If it concerns big flies and aggressive eats, we have it covered here on hunting with the Fly podcast. Please stay tuned. Welcome to the Hunting with a fly podcast. I’m your host, Rick Hostage. And today I have a special guest, Jerry Darkes. Jerry has spent most of his career full time in the fly fishing industry as a manufacturer’s rep, a guide instructor, travel host, and author. And while Jerry has fished all over, really all over the world, internationally, I think he appreciates what we have here in the Great Lakes. Um, the opportunities that exist here in our backyard. Probably more than any, any, any other angler I know. So Jerry, welcome to the podcast and, uh, look forward to talking to you today. 00:01:27 Jerry: Yeah. Thanks, Rick. Uh, I appreciate you having me on. And, uh, always happy to talk about what we have going on here in the Great Lakes. 00:01:35 Rick: Sounds great. Yeah. Our focus will be lake trout today. And lake trout, I think kind of fits into the idea of the podcast of hunting with a fly, and that it is maybe not a predator in the same vein as we think, uh, of muskie or Pike, but it certainly is a voracious eater. And, uh, you know, I think really fits into that type of fish that when we think of hunting another fish, hunting the hunter, you know, the, the lake trout really fits in there really well, I think. 00:02:09 Jerry: Yeah. Great. I definitely agree with you, Rick. You know, in, uh, it was historically, you know, one of the apex predators of the Great Lakes. And if we look at at least, you know, currently at Lake Superior in particular, it certainly fills that role. And especially in, you know, the more open water, uh, situation and deeper water situations, although, you know, it’s not always a deep water fish. And I think that’s one thing that a lot of anglers think that they’re only found in deep water, but that’s not necessarily the case. And I’m sure we’ll talk about that a little bit more. 00:02:48 Rick: Yeah. No, it’s and I think that’s really where where the opportunity comes into play here. And, and like you said, we’ll discuss that before we get into it too much, though. Jerry, let’s talk a little bit about your books and you know, kind of what you. Yeah. Like I said, you know, in the introduction, you’ve accomplished so much in the fly fishing industry. Um, but, uh, certainly your books have been, uh, you know, have helped a number of anglers and have been very well received. Why don’t you talk a little bit about, you know, the books that you’re out there, particularly the, um, you know, fly fishing, the, uh, the inland oceans. 00:03:23 Jerry: Yeah. The fly fishing inland oceans was really the first, uh, the first book that I did. And it really was the thought of it was to highlight the Great Lakes and not focus on the tributary fishing so much as, uh, in fact, I really didn’t focus on the tributary fishing at all because that, that had been done, you know, numerous times by numerous people. Uh, and of course, we know that’s great opportunity for a lot of people, but the nearshore stuff in the Great Lakes is also really, really good. Uh, nearshore. You know, there’s walking wade opportunities in the lakes, uh, small boat, kayak, canoe, you know, so there’s just a really surprising amount of water out there that’s accessible easily, uh, by anglers. And even today, a lot of it is virtually untouched or very, very, you know, little touch. So that, you know, that was the first book I did to bring that awareness. And, you know, I had a couple offshoots off of that, you know, tying books, pattern books, uh, central flights to the Great Lakes region. And then most recently, uh, fifty best flights for the upper Midwest. And that, you know, that had Great Lakes patterns as well as inland patterns and stuff. Uh, and then I also did a very simple beginner’s guide to tying flies for bass and panfish. So that’s kind of where, uh, you know, uh, the book stuff is gone. Not sure. You know, if I’ve got another one in me. I’d like to do an update on Inland oceans, I think, uh, if possible, because there’s just so much more I know now than even I knew back then. And I think it’d be, you know, a good thing to have that brought up to, you know, current, uh, current knowledge, current equipment, that type of stuff. 00:05:18 Rick: That is, it’s an amazing, um, reference and, and resource. And I think for anyone that, you know, has, you know, tired of going to areas where they’re overfished or the fishing pressure is heavy, you know, some of the areas and things that you’ve uncovered in the book and talk about in the book, like you’ve, you know, also mentioned here really allow anglers to find water all to themselves and to really kind of get away and really celebrate what fly fishing is all about, you know, finding, discovering, um, you know, what you’ve done with that book in terms of really uncovering some hidden gems is, is amazing. So I think anybody that lives in the Great Lakes area, um, you know, in proximity travels here to fish, uh, we certainly do themselves a service by, uh, having that book and looking through it and kind of picking out some things and trying to do some different, you know, try to do some different things with their fly fishing. 00:06:16 Jerry: Yeah. You know, you got to be a little adventurous, you know, uh, you have to be willing to accept, uh, defeat once in a while. Uh, you know, that’s part of the process. But in the midst of that, I mean, you can really get into some pretty incredible stuff. I mean, uh, you know, a lot of what we find in salt water, you can duplicate reasonably well, you know, in the Great Lakes, you know, as far as shallow water sight fishing and, uh, chasing apex predators and that type of stuff. So, um, Uh, and it’s just good to see that there’s just more of that going on. You know, it’s been kind of a slow process, but I think once people get aware of it and have some success, you know, kind of turns on a switch and, uh, you know, they say, okay, this is really cool and, uh, should probably be doing this a little bit more. 00:07:11 Rick: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, certainly, I think, you know, you’ve shown that, um, you know, I, I think we’ve taken similar paths in trying to discover, you know, some of those, you know, I would say, uh, maybe offbeat type of things, you know, in our areas. Um, but you certainly have done a great job at, you know, that exploration and, and talking about it and really, you know, spending the time and putting in the miles to do it. So yeah, great, great reference. And where, where can people purchase that? Jerry. 00:07:42 Jerry: Uh, well, they’re certainly available on Amazon. Uh, I know, uh, as far as you know, local shops in my area, I know mad River Outfitters, uh, in Columbus, Ohio, always keeps my books in stock, and they typically have autographed copies of them too, uh, in that. So, and you can certainly ask your local fly shop to get copies of it too. So they’re certainly available from a number of different sources. And hopefully people will take advantage of it and, uh, see what’s out there. 00:08:16 Rick: Yeah. Great. Great. Jerry. Well, let’s shift a little bit and, um, let’s talk about lake trout. Uh, maybe you can give a little background on, you know, the native range of the lake trout and kind of how they fit into, you know, the, I guess the ecosystems that they, uh, you know, that they occupy. 00:08:36 Jerry: Yeah. So the, you know, just, you know, kind of if we want to keep more of a Great Lakes focus. 00:08:41 Rick: Yeah. 00:08:42 Jerry: You know, we, we know that lake trout are indigenous or native to most of northern North America all the way from. I mean, I’ve caught them in Labrador. I’ve caught him in Alaska, you know, so they’re native to that whole swath of territory, uh, generally in, in deeper lakes, uh, where there’s access to, to deep cold water. Uh, but, you know, they’re historically native to all five of the Great Lakes. Uh, and, you know, where most of my experience has been fishing them, uh, in the Great Lakes. And just looking back, I was thinking about this a little bit earlier that I’ve caught them in, I think just Lake Huron, Lake Superior and Lake Michigan is where I’ve caught well, Lake Ontario. 00:09:33 Rick: And Lake Ontario. 00:09:34 Jerry: And Lake Ontario, obviously. Yeah. Uh, I have not caught them in Lake Erie. Uh, I know people that have caught them on flies In Lake Erie. I just haven’t, you know, gotten that opportunity yet myself. Uh, but again, they are native to all five of the Great Lakes. 00:09:49 Rick: Yeah. That’s going to be one of my goals this year is to get one in Lake Erie. I hear that the population has really rebounded there. And it also is producing from some really big fish as well. So yeah, definitely going to be something on my hit list. 00:10:03 Jerry: Yep. Uh, and the other thing is, you know, they are now reproducing naturally in all five of the Great Lakes again too. So, uh, that was, uh, you know, good thing to hear that when that happened. 00:10:14 Rick: Yeah, I know New York and just not to get off topic, but New York had just completed it has been working on improving spawning by actually clearing off some of their traditional spawning areas that have been covered in zebra mussels. So they are doing some kind of sandblasting to clear off the rocks where they can successfully spawn again. So I know a lot of a lot of different effort to bring things back. Um, where do you think that, you know, lake trout fit in terms of your, you know, favorite fish to fish for? 00:10:47 Jerry: I think because of the seasonal aspect of it. Uh, for the most part, you know, they fill a, a number, you know, probably a number three to number four tier. Mhm. I think, uh, if they’re available, you know, where I’m at, I’m definitely, you know, interested in fishing for them, but just, you know, the opportunities are not always there, right? So you got to be a little selective on your seasons, uh, you know, when they’re reachable with a fly. I mean, and that, that, and that’s the primary thing. But if they’re available, I love to catch them. You know, if they’re, you know, and as you know, they’re tough fish. Yeah. They hit like a freight train and they will make long, long, strong runs and just the head shaking and everything. And, and just the strength and size of them, you know, is just, I think, appealing to anybody that is interested in catching big freshwater fish on a fly. 00:11:46 Rick: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree one hundred percent. Do you feel as though there are an underappreciated species in the realm of fly fishing? 00:11:54 Jerry: Yeah. You know, I, you know, I think most people’s experience with them initially is dragging them out of one hundred and fifty, two hundred feet of water on a, you know, from a down rigger or they’re catching them on a lead or wire line or something like that. And, you know, you always get the, uh, the response from somebody. Well, it’s like bringing in a, an old boot or something like that. Uh, you get a hold of that fish in ten feet of water, you know, on a strip fly. And I think your opinion of me is going to change pretty, pretty quick at that point. So it’s just a matter of, you know, where they’re encountered. And if you encounter them in the right situation, then yeah, they’re a very, very, uh, strong, powerful fish and fun to catch. 00:12:50 Rick: Yeah. And like you said, I mean, you get that, you know, that big voracious eat out of out of the fish as well. I mean, I know sometimes they just grab the fly and, um, you know, almost pull the rod out of your hand. Other times you kind of just feel that real heavy grab, heavy tick. So I mean, I think the actual hooking and, you know, feeding the fish is also very exciting. 00:13:11 Jerry: Mhm. For sure. 00:13:13 Rick: Um, I guess where, how did you develop your interest in, in lake trout? I mean, where did that come about? I mean, I, I think maybe some of the early days over in the Niagara or, uh, kind of where did that come from? 00:13:25 Jerry: Yeah. You know, that would be probably that kicked the whole thing off for me because like most people, I thought, well, lake trout are a deep water fish, you know. And you got to drag heavy gear in that in order to catch them. And that was certainly my impression. The first few that I caught were caught that way. And my own thought was, oh, these aren’t real exciting. And then, you know, after I met you and we started fishing in Niagara together, and then, you know, I was going over then on my own. And I think you develop a whole new appreciation for the fish at that point, because here I am standing on shore, you know, catching lake trout literally right at my feet, you know, in the river. So that really kind of changed the whole equation there. Uh, and I learned a little bit, you know, about the Niagara Bar and that. And when I started working again on the Inland Oceans book, I was exposed to other areas where lake trout were available, you know, seasonally in shallow water and found that, you know. Wow. You can actually, you know, you can catch these flies and your fish on flies consistently. And they’re really a lot of fun and they’re great game fish and, you know, kind of changed the whole, my whole mindset on them to a point where, you know, if they’re around, I’m going to go after them. 00:14:52 Rick: Sure. Yep. And, and what, uh, size wise, Jerry. I mean, what are you encountering across across the Great Lakes? I know it’s pretty wide and varied, but, you know, kind of average and top end. 00:15:03 Jerry: Yeah, I would say the average, you know, you know, it kind of depends on where you’re at to a certain extent. You know, like Lake Superior, for example, uh, has depending on who you talk to, multiple subspecies of lake trout that, that stratify at different levels. And the ones that I believe we encounter most frequently, at least when I’m up there are the Redfin variety because they’re colored almost like a brook trout. And in fact, if it wasn’t for the forktail, you’d swear some of them were brook trout, and they tend to be a little longer and thinner through the body. And I think those get up into the maybe the ten pound range, at least in my experience, the ones we catch there and then, you know, out on the Niagara Bar and that we’ve caught fish over twenty pounds, you know, so I would say the average fish we get on a fly is, I’m going to say in the eight to ten pound range, I think would be a pretty fair assessment of, you know, where we’re at on those. 00:16:03 Rick: Yep. I mean, and I think that really, you know, drives home part of the, you know, excitement of this. I mean, we’re talking about a trout or salmon that’s readily available that, you know, can be in that ten pound range. I mean, that’s a tremendous fish. And, you know, with the opportunity to get one that’s twenty, you know, right in, you know, if you live in the proximity of the Great Lakes or, you know, a lake, trout lake, you have that at your disposal, it’s pretty, uh, a pretty interesting opportunity, for sure. 00:16:30 Jerry: Yep. Yeah. And, you know, just different appearance of the fish there. Just the markings on them. You know, they’re really if you really look at them, they are a pretty, I don’t know if I want to say the term beautiful. I don’t know if anybody would say that about a lake trout, but they’re certainly just, you know, very well camouflaged for the habitat they live in. Uh, and for ambushing prey, you know, so there are a lot of unique colorations on them. 00:16:58 Rick: Yeah. I would say they’re regal looking. How about. Yeah. Yeah. They’re right. Maybe not pretty, but they definitely have a certain appeal to them. I, when I look at them sometimes too, I think of they have a similar kind of body shape and structure of a bull trout and bull trout on the West or, you know, revered as a again, as a fly rod fish. And, uh, you know, I kind of look at lake trout being the maybe the eastern version of that anyways. 00:17:25 Jerry: Mhm. 00:17:26 Rick: So, um, Jerry, you had a really good article, you know, recently in the Drake magazine, I thought on, uh, on lake trout and, you know, it did, you know, talk a lot about the, uh, the Great Lakes, the history, you know, the certainly the ups and the downs and maybe the back up. Um, maybe you could just cover that just a little bit. Uh, you know, what we’ve dealt with here in the Great Lakes in terms of, you know, the lake trout resource, um, you know, we’re kind of dipped to and where it’s coming back and why it’s coming back. 00:17:57 Jerry: Yeah. So I think, you know, with a lot of different species of various fish and wildlife, you know, we saw a decline through the late eighteen hundreds through the early nineteen hundreds due to a variety of factors, you know, habitat loss, overfishing, pollution. And it’s certainly the same with for lake trout. Uh, you know, it was very important commercial species for many, many years. But what really was kind of the biggest thing that affected lake trout was when the sea lampreys came in and really established themselves through the whole Great Lakes system. So I think we saw the worst of that. I’m going to say, I think maybe in the thirties and 40s when the lampreys really, really, you know, became, you know, just exploded throughout the whole Great Lakes system. And, and, you know, lake trout were probably one of the more susceptible species to them. You know, they’re relatively soft skinned. They don’t have big scales for protection or anything. Uh, they’re great hosts for lampreys just because of their size. And they just really pretty much decimated, You know, the lake trout populations. Uh, so I think that was really the final thing that really affected them significantly. And then it took a better part of twenty to thirty years before they got selective lamprey sites that, you know, were that caused minimal damage to other, uh, other fish and animals in the system, reptiles and other amphibians and things like that. And so they started treating the lakes. Uh, and they, for the most part, I think they’ll say they’ve got the lamprey populations under reasonable control. But even so, they still, I think any of the major tributaries or even most of the tributaries, I think they, they treat about every three years. And it’s an ongoing process with, uh, you know, province of Ontario and all the Great Lakes states. But that really helped bring back, uh, the lake trout populations in general that and, you know, either restricted or very reduced commercial fishing for them to a point where in Lake Superior now they’ve, uh, you know, they made the statement that lake trout are now recovered, you know, to the pre lamprey populations. Now, maybe not to total historic levels, but, you know, the recovery process in a fairly short period of time has been been really quite remarkable. So, you know, a good success story for a change. You know, most of the fisheries stories we hear are nothing but gloom and doom. Uh, that’s been a good one. And again, the fact that there’s no naturally reproducing populations, as we said earlier in all five of the Great Lakes, uh, and they can be specifically targeted, uh, in all five of the Great Lakes again. So, you know, it’s been a recovery process that really, you know, is a great example to show that, yeah, we can do this if we actually, you know, work through it, take the time to do it and give the fish half a chance to recover. 00:21:30 Rick: Yeah. No, it’s a really, it is an awesome story, uh, of recovery and kind of like you’re saying, just gives another example of if you just give mother nature a, just a half a chance to, uh, you know, perform that it will. And, you know, I think it’s something, I guess that’s another reason that I really kind of appreciating this, uh, you know, the great or the lake trout at this point too, is just this resilience. Um, I know that they’re a slower growing fish. So this recovery probably has, you know, taken a little bit extra time because of that as well. I mean, you don’t have, you know, fish growing quite as quickly. Maybe you can just talk to that what their, uh, you know, their average, I don’t know, growth rate or, or, um, you know, ages. 00:22:19 Jerry: Yeah. You know, that’s a good question. I, I, I’m guessing that, you know, the fish that we’re catching in the, the ten pound range are, I don’t know, five year old fish, maybe a little bit older now. I think it depends on your location where you’re at. And again, using that Lake Superior example, I’m guessing that the deeper water subspecies that kind of inhabit those zones are probably slower growing than the shallower water ones. But again, as you said, it is a slow growing fish. And, uh, boy, I, you know, I honestly can’t even tell you what, you know, a twenty or twenty five pounder, how old that fish would be other than it’s pretty darn old, I think. 00:23:03 Rick: Yeah, exactly. 00:23:04 Jerry: You know, uh, and, you know, I would stress that those big ones should pretty much always be let go. Yeah. I mean, it’s, you know, I think we can agree that a fish that big, probably no matter what the species is, the, uh, the eating quality of it might be minimal, right? You know, so no need to kill them. 00:23:27 Rick: Yeah. Both ends of that. I think the eating quality would be minimal. And then I, you know, I believe in at least most species that those bigger fish have the right genetics, um, you know, are going to produce the right if it’s a female, the right number of and, you know, quality of eggs as well. So yeah, really, I think important to, uh, you know, keep them in the system. 00:23:48 Jerry: Yeah. For sure. 00:23:50 Rick: Well, let’s shift a little bit to actual fishing for lake trout, Jerry. And, you know, get into, you know, some of the tips and techniques. Maybe we can just start with rigging, um, rods, you know, lines, reels. I, I, you know, I think particularly important here would be, you know, spending a little time on the lines. Um, you know, since, uh, that’s going to have such a direct impact on the, presentation and getting the fly to the right zone. 00:24:16 Jerry: Yeah. So for the most part, you know, we’re fishing a sinking line of some sort. Uh, the vast majority of the time, although there are exceptions to that. But, you know, when I do the, the North Shore, Lake Superior fishing using either anything from medium fast to slow sinking or medium to fast sinking lines, depending on the depth range that we’re trying to cover. You know, we catch a fair number of lake trout early in the year on the same rigs, same flies and stuff that we’re fishing for, you know, coaster brook trout, you know, as you experienced. Exactly. Yeah. Those fish are generally up in four to six, eight feet of water. Uh, and that’s kind of a slow sinking line. Uh, at that point, uh, moving off to deeper water, saying that ten to twenty foot range where I think if we’re targeting them, that’s probably the normal range that we’re getting them most of the time. And there I like to use a faster sinking line. You know, even up to a type six, you know, type seven depending on the line weight, just to keep that fly down in that little deeper zone. You know, as long as possible. Mhm. Um, I think what really helped this whole thing with targeting these fish now over the last decade or so is just the, uh, the improvement in line technology has gotten so good, uh, that, you know, we’ve got lines that are on the market in the last, even the last couple of years that weren’t available, uh, ten years ago. And that’s kind of opened up, you know, this door to really expand it even more, uh, you know, for the deeper depths, you know, the multi density lines or have proven to be really, really good because you just get a much better direct connection to the fly than you do with do with the single density line where you tend to get, you know, some sag in the line. And, uh, the bite detection and hook setting is not as efficient as with the multi density line. Uh, so I guess to summarize, you know, that I would have a slow to medium sink line and a fast sinking line, depending on the depth that we want to, we want to cover. 00:26:42 Rick: Yeah. And I think that really makes a good point there, Jerry, that the, you know, the technology and the lines has come so far from, you know, we’ve been doing this deep water stuff probably for, you know, thirty, thirty five years. And, um, you know, there’s no question that, uh, you know, that the line technology has really increased the opportunity for, you know, all of this, you know, deeper water offshore type of fishing for sure. 00:27:08 Jerry: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So things are happening, uh, still continuously in this whole process here. And I would probably say the minimum line I would work with would be an eight. Mhm. Um, and I’ll generally, you know, if I’m really targeting them, I’ll fish generally a nine most of the time just for the fact that, you know, that next grab might be, you know, from that big one. Yeah. So I’d rather be a little over gunned, I guess, than under-gunned in that situation. 00:27:39 Rick: Exactly. Yeah. Especially with their heavy fighting ability. Uh, maybe talk a little bit about the leaders that you’d run off of those, uh, those sinking lines, Jerry. 00:27:48 Jerry: Yeah. You know, the leader is not very sophisticated. I’ll usually run a butt section, maybe a couple feet of, say, twenty pound, maybe a little bit heavier, depending on the size fly that I’m working with and the weight of the fly I’m working with. And then remainder of the leader is I generally use fifteen pound fluorocarbon. Okay. You know, for their abrasion resistance more than anything else. You know, I don’t think generally that the Lakers are are two leaders shy. Although the one thing I’ve started to do in again lake situation, what we you know, more of a Stillwater situation is I’ll lengthen the leader out. Okay. And I’ll run a leader off in nine to ten feet, maybe even a little bit longer. And you know, the, the guy that really turned me on to this is Jeff Courier. Uh, Jeff has been up, you know, on the North Shore spear with me a number of times. And, you know, from his competition fishing around the world, he’s convinced that, you know, that there’s times in in flat, sunny conditions where that dark colored lie line, fly line can, you know, bother the fish and, you know, in a lake in that, you know, there’s really no really detriment to running along the leader. I don’t think, you know, it’s not as though we’re swinging the fly in the current where it’s a different, a whole different scenario. So I would not be afraid to run the leader out a little bit longer than you know, you would in a river situation. 00:29:28 Rick: Yeah, that’s a really good tip. And I, I wanted to make sure we talked about that because I know we, we talked about that up on Lake Superior. Um, yeah. And I, you know, I think that is a, you know, a deviation from what most people think in terms of when they’re running. And that’s kind of what you’re taught, you know, to run a fairly short leader off of a sink tip, you know, three, four feet and, um, you know, in these lake situations just for stealth and it makes total sense. You want to move that fly away from the line. But, and, um, you know, just kind of remove that, you know, fish being able to sense that something’s false. Um, so it makes a lot of sense to run a lot, you know, much longer. Leader. 00:30:08 Jerry: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 00:30:11 Rick: Um, and then just maybe touch a little bit on flies. Jerry. I, you know, my experience is that flies seem like sometimes with lake trout, they matter and sometimes they don’t. And, um, maybe you can just kind of touch upon that. I know you’d really both, you know, really all your books you’ve, you’ve had some great fly patterns. Um, you know, I think they’re, you know, the patterns you have in your book are what I like about them is they’re mainly designed towards fishing flies and flies that are effective. But, uh, maybe you can just talk about a couple of key elements of your successful lake trout flies. 00:30:46 Jerry: Yeah. So I think as far as, you know, fly patterns, again, there’s, uh, been an evolution in that to a certain extent. Also, uh, I think if you’re going to pick a lake trout pattern initially, you certainly want a baitfish design most of the time, and generally a fairly bright, flashy baitfish color. Most of the time, uh, you know, uh, something especially in the Clearwater situations where you can draw fish from a long distance, you know, color flash movement. Uh, certainly chartreuse and white combinations are very effective. Blue and white is another good one that’s been good for me. And we’re fishing depending on where we’re at, something like, you know, just for an example, the last couple, uh, you know, December Lake Ontario, Niagara bar, we fished basically circus peanuts. Mhm. You know, Russ Madden circus peanut or variations off those in that those main colorations. But again, Olive and white can be a good one too. But again, that white seems to be a pretty consistent thing in, in lake trout patterns most of the time, and those would be probably size two and size ones. Uh, you know, that’s an articulated fly, the overall length probably being in that four to six inch range. And I think, you know, they’re feeding mainly on smelt and, and stuff like that. Uh, so you’re in that same size range, uh, as what, you know, smelt are game changers have also been good at times. If you don’t need quite as much weight to get down, but that fish on a, on a fast sink line can be a very, very productive pattern. And again, a hand over hand retrieve with that can be really, really effective, uh, to fish some of the deeper stuff. Jig flies, jig streamers have really come on onto the scene the last few years. And, um, and again, this is another Jeff Curry, your contribution that he kind of turned me on to and again, generally white with some, you know, accent color to it. Size one zero somewhere in that range there, maybe a five millimeter tungsten head on it. Um, and the thing with a fast sinking line, and if you lengthen the leader out, I mean, you can easily fish into depths, thirty feet and more with that fly if you need to and want to really start to probe deeper water in that to the extent that again, looking at what some of the gear guys are doing as far as the way they jig Lakers now, um, this year I saw Jeff basically go around and, and individually spot fish and deepest I saw him catch one was sixty feet. Wow. So if you want to take it to that extreme, you can certainly do it. Jeff Pierce, uh, uh, the international sales manager for Scientific Anglers is doing that also. And again, that fifty plus feet range in spotting fish individually can certainly be done. Uh, you know, it just depends on how far you want to take it. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, you know, it’s kind of one of those things is this learning curve just keeps expanding as pattern technology, fly line technology, all that, you know, increases in expanse. And we’ve seen that across multiple species to you and your, you know, targeting muskies, deep water, smallmouth and stuff like that. Even walleye are fair game now if you want to do it. Uh, and lake trout are just part of that whole process. 00:34:44 Rick: Yeah, that’s really neat. And it, it is, it’s just, uh, the, the technology and just the sharing of information is just really opening up a lot of things and I, I, like I said, I think that’s what’s exciting is to kind of spread out and do something different. I mean, I think that’s a good challenge for almost every fly fisherman has put that on their list for each year. Try to do something different instead of just going and kind of repeating the the same process every year. 00:35:10 Jerry: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the stuff is here. It’s close by. Yeah. And it’s, I mean, it’s world class. 00:35:15 Rick: Yeah, absolutely. It really. 00:35:17 Jerry: Is it, you know, uh, so the, you know, it’s just the like all types of fly fishing, whether it be saltwater or whatever worldwide, you know, we’re just expanding our, uh, you know, what we’re doing with the fly rod. 00:35:32 Rick: Absolutely. Let’s talk a little bit about strategy here, Jerry. Let’s, um, you know, kind of time of year. I know you’ve touched upon it a bit, um, you know, and, you know, depths and things like that. But you know, what’s maybe a typical, uh, cycle and, you know, where are you finding fish during the different times of the year. 00:35:51 Jerry: Yeah. So, uh, you know, obviously ice out is a key time of year. Uh, at that point in a lot of places, the water temperature is, uh, evenly distributed through the water column. So these fish can be in a wide range of temperatures. And really at that point, it’s a matter of finding food. They’ll be, you know, they’ll be up in there looking for food and sometimes maybe even going into the slightly warmer water. Mhm. You know, thirty five degree water may not be what their preferred temperature is. So they’re going to be moving around, uh, following bait and getting into a comfortable zone like that. And what I’ve seen, you know, personally is, and again, this is more Lake Superior focused is, uh, They’ll stay up shallow, shallow enough to catch up until around fifty five degrees, and then they’ll start dropping off the edges of in the deeper water. But stay in that that same zone. But they may again start to move offshore. Then where they’re, you know, just out in the open water, targeting and following bait, a little harder to, you know, to focus on a fly at that point. So certainly, you know, that spring time period is certainly key. Uh, then again, as water temperatures drop in the fall or in late summer into the fall and the bait starts to move back in, you know, they’ll follow the bait back in. And again, depending on where you’re at, we know, you know, spawning takes place in fall. And I think, uh, New York and Ontario, I think it’s closed during the month of November. Yes. If I’m not mistaken. Uh, so you can’t really you’re not supposed to target them during that time frame. Uh, and again, that’ll vary a little bit, I think, depending on where you’re at. So check your local regulations on that. As far as targeting Lakers, and then it, it often opens up again, uh, in early December and that fishing can stay very consistent again up until, uh, it gets too cold for you to just stand being out there. Yeah, basically is what it is. So one thing I’m going to bring up here that you haven’t heard yet, and this just happened to me last week, uh, I was back up at Nipigon, uh, northern Ontario again. And we were targeting brook trout, but we were fishing Lake Nipigon this time. A lot of insect activity in late July and through August up there. So we were going up there to, to chase brook trout on the surface, but we had the lake flip while we was up there while we were up there and. The whole process of flip is where a strong offshore wind can push warm water out and bring cold water up. So it’s almost like a circulation. And areas that were in the high fifties, one day that we were fishing for brook trout, uh, and getting, you know, some fish on the surface, uh, were in the mid forties the next day. And, uh, so this is, you know, middle of July, we caught brook trout on streamers in six, eight feet of water again, a couple and we had one fish come up and eat a dry fly when we were fishing. Brookies. 00:39:38 Rick: So and as a Laker. 00:39:40 Jerry: And it was a Laker. 00:39:41 Rick: Wow. No kidding. Yeah. It’s crazy. 00:39:43 Jerry: So for Neil and the guy, you know, Aiden, the guides, you know, you met Neil. Is that. That was the first Laker he ever caught on a dry fly there. But what really made that happen was that phenomenon of flip. And that happens in all the Great Lakes. Sure. Uh, to a lesser extent in some than others. But that’s something to, to be aware of. Uh, and it certainly happens a lot in Lake Michigan in particular, uh, is known for having flip occur and that’s outlined in my Inland Oceans book too. 00:40:13 Rick: Yeah. And it happens in Ontario quite a bit too, because, you know, the depth there. And if you get, you know, a, you know, a north strong kind of northeast wind, um, it can flip it over. 00:40:23 Jerry: Yep. Yeah. So I think, you know, in a lot of cases, you know, with lake trout are an open water fish to a certain extent, they’ll follow bait and open water, but they’re generally fairly oriented to the bottom. Mhm. Uh, you know, we know that they’ll actually sit on the bottom and ambush prey, you know? So, uh, I don’t think they lay on, you know, mud bottom or anything like that. I don’t think they go into weeds too much or anything like that. I think a hard bottom is, is what they prefer. Something with maybe some structure on it that they can lay in and ambush, but they will come off of those areas to, you know, pursue bait and probably, you know, stay off the bottom for a period of time and then then go back down again. Uh, and again, looking at water depths here again, depending on time of year and such, that can be anywhere probably from, you know, like recently found out six or, you know, in the early spring, six to eight foot of water and deeper, you know, just depending on, I think water temperatures and, and things like that, you know, Thermoclines may have an effect on that too. Again, we don’t really have that situation in spring and fall because generally the water column is is pretty mixed and temperatures are uniform at that point. But if you’re going to target them, maybe in the summertime, you would want to look at at something like that too. 00:41:55 Rick: Do you think that when you’re trying to locate lake trout, do you think you’re more orientated towards finding the structure or finding the bait, or is it just mainly a combination of both? 00:42:10 Jerry: Uh, I think if you can have structure and find bait both, you know, that’s certainly would narrow the process a lot more, you know? So that would be, I think the target, the thing I would target. And, you know, if we’re out in the boat, you know, we’re going to probably have some sort of electronics on it. And then we can utilize those electronics to, to look for bait. And again, you can spot individual fish to, uh, you know, the electronics are that sophisticated that, you know, we can, uh, you know, if it’s large enough, you’re going to see individual fish too. So, uh, and that’s, I think probably the, the most recent part of this process is, you know, starting to do it that way. 00:42:59 Rick: Mhm. And let’s talk a little bit about, uh, you know, presentation, Jerry, you know, for the most part, I mean, we’ve referenced using a boat and maybe we can talk just a little bit about how you set that up. I mean, generally drifting with the wind, working with the wind, um, to get some movement. I mean, what’s your basic setup there? 00:43:19 Jerry: Yeah. Uh, I think that in a lot of cases, you know, we’re, we are letting the wind drift move us or we can use an electric motor or something like that to help us cover an area. Uh, you know, I think on the bar, for example, you know, I hate to use that reference, but, uh, you know, they’re, we’re covering most of the time we’re just covering an area. 00:43:43 Rick: Mhm. 00:43:44 Jerry: Yup. Um, and, uh, especially in that fall season where, you know, the fish are there, we know they’re there, you can mark them and that, uh, you can mark bait. Uh, and I think you’re just covering the area to get, uh, just covering water to get the fly in front of a, you know, an active fish, a feeding fish. So they’re covering the water is critically important. You know, just you have to be moving at a speed where you can, you know, control the fly. Mhm. Though, you know, you don’t want to be going too fast where you’re losing control of the fly on the other end of it. Uh, if you’re trying to, to target fish there, you might want to hold the boat stationary as much as possible. And that’s where, you know, spot lock on your trolling motor or something like that, you know, is a very essential tool at that point, uh, you know, to stay over a group of fish or an individual fish if you spot it like that. And again, this whole maybe that won’t appeal to everybody. But again, if you’re thinking about hunting big fish, I mean, they’re, you’re, you’re hunting an individual fish or several fish at that point. Uh, so that’s part of, you know, really getting in position to being able to target those fish efficiently. 00:45:08 Rick: Yeah, absolutely. And if you do have too much wind, or are you using your, uh, you know, the electric motor to slow things down or do you use a drift sack or anything like that? 00:45:19 Jerry: I think the drift stock is, you know, if you’re just going to cover an expanse of water, drift stock is probably a good way to do it. Yeah. You know, the thing about the electric is if you’re on the move with the electric. You know, you kind of have to focus a lot of your attention on, you know, keeping the boat moving properly in the right position and that. Yeah. So, uh, you may lose a little bit of your effectiveness as far as presenting the fly and working it properly, uh, where, you know, the drift slack to cover an area slows you down and you get a better presentation that way. Uh, I think one thing moving with the wind drifting is that you’ll often make a cast against the drift to give that fly really the chance to get down as quickly as possible and then work it back to you against the drift, rather than casting it out and just letting it, you know, swing or, or get into the drift and pull of the boat. Uh, and you again, you may lose some of your, uh, your feel, some of the, uh, the touch you might have working the flight properly. 00:46:35 Rick: Yeah. So basically casting into the wind. 00:46:38 Jerry: Yeah. 00:46:38 Rick: Yeah. 00:46:39 Jerry: And again, that’s pretty much, I think what we do with most of the time, whether we’re targeting smallmouth or whatever is, you know, we’re going to be casting into the wind most of the time. 00:46:49 Rick: Yes. Yeah. Because like I said, you just lose that control and really contact with the fly. You know, if you’re not and, um, you’re drifting, you know, towards the fly and it just sometimes, uh, or, you know, in those situations, it’s very difficult to contact a hit and, uh, you know, get a good hookset as well. So, um, what, you know, kind of, we, we’ve talked about, you know, the, the shallow water, but I mean, obviously there must be some opportunities for wade fishing or bank fishing for someone that doesn’t have a boat or, you know, I guess even, you know, personal craft like kayaks and things like that. 00:47:31 Jerry: Well, I, you know, uh, probably the best shoreline opportunity I think I’m aware of is the Niagara River. Mhm. Um, you know, from either the Canadian or the American side, you know, through October through again, as long as you can stand it, uh, the conditions, uh, other areas I know there’s like little traverse Bay, there’s places where you could get them from docks and piers, even I know a couple places in Lake Erie where guys have caught them off the shoreline and that. So I think it’s, it’s a matter of just locating a place that has access to relatively deep water. And the one thing I think you do need is, you know, bait to pull the fish in in close enough. So I think that’s the combination that you’re really looking at either early or late. You know, traverse Bay, it’s been a springtime thing where I’ve caught them up there. Uh, I’ve not fished them up there late, you know, obviously, like when we were up in Labrador, water stayed cold the whole time, you know, and we caught them, uh, just throwing flies into some deeper parts, you know, just walking shoreline and stuff to, you know, some deeper areas. So, uh, being adjacent to fairly deep water with a food source, I’d say are the two primary things that you need. 00:49:02 Rick: Yeah. I think probably some unique opportunities out there. It just, you know, if you live in proximity to really any lake trout water, if you probably do a little searching and do a little, uh, EO investigation, you can probably find those, you know, little odd opportunities for getting them near shore like that. 00:49:20 Jerry: But yeah, you know, uh, the whole Great Lakes thing is just a work in progress, you know. Uh, you know, you and I started doing it regularly with fly thirty or so years ago. Yeah. But they’re just not that even now. There is not that many people doing it. So. 00:49:40 Rick: Exactly. 00:49:41 Jerry: A lot more than there used to be for sure. But again, just think of how many thousands of miles of shoreline there are to cover. And you know, it just hadn’t been done, right? 00:49:53 Rick: Yeah. So the opportunities are out there. It just need to be discovered yet. Um, let’s just, uh, maybe just kind of wrap things up here. Jerry, just talk a little bit about, you know, the retrieve. Um, I know you talked a little bit about overhand your, you know, two handed retrieve, but what’s your go to there? What’s your variations that you might use there? 00:50:14 Jerry: Uh, you know, it depends on the fly pattern a little bit. Obviously with something like, uh, a game changer where you want that fly to be swimming all the time. The hand over hand, uh, retrieve is certainly the one that you’re going to be using. Uh, standard bait fish streamers. You know, you can do a combination of both hand over hand and a strip retrieve, and you may find that something may work better than another on a given day. I think the thing about, you know, jig streamers is obviously a little bit more of a harder strip and, you know, maybe even a pop of the rod tip. Mhm. Really get that fly to hop a lot. And you know, the interesting thing about jig streamer, especially working deeper water is if you’re really targeting a specific area, you know, you can pop that fly up, maybe work at ten to fifteen feet off the bottom and then just drop it again so you can keep that fly in that zone A pretty extended period of time if you want. So, you know, you’ve got that combination of things that you can do. And again, it’s, I think based a lot on what the, the fly pattern that you’re using. 00:51:33 Rick: Mhm. And you’re finding fast, slow in between. Uh, well. 00:51:38 Jerry: You. 00:51:38 Rick: Know, I think. 00:51:39 Jerry: Relatively relatively fast retrieve. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, because, you know, we know those fish are predators and, uh, they are certainly more than willing to chase a fly if they you’re not going to get it away from it when they, if they want. Yeah. You know, so I think a fairly fast retrieve in general. 00:52:01 Rick: And any hot tips for, you know, tricks for, for getting a fish to eat that you’ve, uh, kind of used. 00:52:10 Jerry: Uh, I think maybe that drop back at times, you know, if you get a hit and miss it, you know, lake trout in particular, I, find at times will do. I think what I would call a kill hit. You know, to stun the bait. So if you get a really hard grab or a hit and miss it, you know, drop that, fly back a little bit and start to retrieve again. And I, you know, I can think of numerous times where they’ve come back and hit the fly. Uh, when you start to retrieve again. 00:52:42 Rick: Mhm. So that might even really kind of play into that whole idea. They’ve stunned the bait. Looks like it’s falling back down. 00:52:49 Jerry: Yeah. 00:52:50 Rick: Yeah. So, yeah, that sounds good. Yep. Yeah. Definitely a technique to try. Um, let’s just talk about, you know, kind of wrap it up here, Jerry. Let’s just talk about, uh, you know, the hook set, you know, and, and what it’s like to fight a, you know, big lake trout. 00:53:07 Jerry: Well, uh, yeah, obviously, you know, the old strip strike is certainly what we want to try and use as much as possible as, you know, a hard pull with your lying hand. And, you know, depending on how much line you have out, how deep your fishing, you may use that in combination with a little bit of a, you know, a lift of the rod tip to really try and drive that home. And usually the first thing, once the fish realize it’s hooked is it’s going to take off and do a run on you. So be ready for that. Be prepared to get your knuckles busted. Uh, because they’ll generally hit faster and go harder than a lot of people think they will initially, based on maybe their previous experience with lake trout on a different type of tackle. Yeah. And you know, they’re going to, they’re going to dog and hang on the bottom, you know, almost all the time they’re going to go straight to the bottom again. That’s that’s their sanctuary. That’s their safety zone. And a lot of head shaking, a lot of rolling. And, you know, that’s kind of the way they fight. And you might have them come into the boat relatively easy at times too. And then once they maybe see the boat or figure out, wait a minute, this is not normal here. And then they’ll do that, that really strong run then too. Uh, but the biggest thing will be a, a pretty much a dive right to the bottom. And then then really, you know, slugging it out there and depending on how big the fish is, kind of determines on, you know, how, how strong that fight is going to be then. 00:54:49 Rick: Mhm. Yeah. It’s been my experience that when you get them close to the boat, you just have to beware. You know what I mean? Like you’ve recommended using fifteen pound, uh, tippet. So you’re in pretty good shape. But you know, if that fish tries to make a run near the boat and you got them pinched off or something like that, a really good chance of, you know, even breaking fifteen pounds or strong fish. So I think, you know, just being ready for that run near the boat. 00:55:14 Jerry: Yeah. And, you know, I’ve seen them, you know, run, uh, run into rocks and stuff too, and basically break the fly off and rocks at times too. So, uh, that can happen. So that’s the one thing about, you know, using fifteen pounds, you can put a lot of heat on it if you need to. So if you’re in, you know, relatively shallow water, be aware that they may try and do something like that. 00:55:41 Rick: Yeah. So you might want a little tighter drag in those situations just to make them earn the line that they take out and not get too far away from you. 00:55:50 Jerry: Yep. 00:55:50 Rick: Yeah. So that’s great. Jerry. I, I, uh, anything else you’d like to kind of add anything in to wrap up here that I think this has been a great conversation though. 00:56:02 Jerry: Yeah. You know, I guess just the main thing is, is, you know, look at lake trout a little bit differently. Mhm. Um, and, uh, if they’re available to you and you have not caught one on a fly, give it a go. I think you’ll be really surprised at, uh, how strong they are and how game of a fish they are and fun to catch. And I think you mentioned earlier, it’s the opportunity to get a really big trout, you know, on a fly rod without having to, you know, go to some remote location that’s going to take a couple days to get there and cost you a pile of money. I mean, we’ve got them available. Probably anybody around the Great Lakes region, you know, has them available within a a half day’s drive. You know, something like that. So, uh, and with a little bit of research, a little bit of, you know, preparation, They’re certainly catchable on a fly and a lot of fun. 00:57:10 Rick: Yeah, that’s what’s exciting about it, you know, just that the fact that, you know, these large trout char are, you know, just are so available to us. And I, and I think really they’ve, as a species kind of have taken a second class citizens position for a while. And, um, you know, I think really do deserve to be elevated, especially as an, you know, biggest native salmonid in the Great Lakes. Right. You know, I think we need to recognize that. Um, and then I know one thing we had talked about, Jerry, that you’re expanding, uh, you know, maybe some exploration into the Finger Lakes this year. Another native area. Yeah. So in New York State. 00:57:49 Jerry: Yeah, that’s a work in progress here and, uh, haven’t really got into the lake trout thing there yet. Have done it for land locks, which has been fun. Mhm. Learning curve definitely going on. And, uh, we’ll see what happens. You know, I’ll keep you posted. 00:58:09 Rick: Okay. And it’s just so funny because after we had that conversation, uh, um, uh, an old friend of mine reached out to me, and he lives in the Finger Lakes region. He’s been targeting land locks and lake trout and brown trout. So we’re going to try to get together sometime later this year too. So hopefully I’ll get a shot at it over there too. 00:58:28 Jerry: Yeah. We’ve got browns and land locks. We’ve gotten those so far, but we have not tagged the Laker yet. Yeah. But, uh, you know it’ll happen for sure. Uh, just a matter of sorting out a few things. 00:58:41 Rick: Yeah. Yep. Sounds good. Now I’m looking forward to that opportunity as well. Well, Jerry, I really appreciate you taking the time today. I think this has been a great conversation. I hope that, uh, you know, that it inspires, you know, some anglers, whether they’re in the Great Lakes or really any place that they’re in proximity to lake trout to go out and, uh, take advantage of, you know, the opportunity that’s out there for this, you know, great predator fish. I mean, great fish to, to hunt with, to fly. And I appreciate your, you know, your time and your thoughts today. 00:59:11 Jerry: Rick. Thanks. I, uh, again, happy to share. You know what I know? And again, this is just a continuing work in progress. You know, as things change, we learn more about the fish, we learn more areas. We, you know, get, I don’t know how much better the equipment can get, but maybe it can. But, uh, I’m looking forward to keeping the experiment going. 00:59:37 Rick: Yeah, definitely keeps it all fresh, that’s for sure. I think that’s the important thing. You know, that’s what keeps us going so well. I can’t wait to next time we can fish together. Jerry. And, uh, again, thank you for, you know, sharing all your thoughts here today. 00:59:51 Jerry: Yep. You’re welcome. Rick. And I look forward to, uh, getting with you again soon.