821 | Fishing Micro Streamers with Brian at Trout Tornado – Delaware River

Dave (2s): Roderick Hague Brown once wrote in fishing as in life, we sometimes must lose in order to win that reminder that subtlety, often outsmarts force feels right at home on the Delaware decades after Lee Wolfe shaped the river’s culture. Anglers here continue to refine how they fool big trout and pressured water. On today’s episode, we’re diving into the world of micro streamers. Instead of chasing the giant meat fly trend, we’re showing how downsizing can actually unlock the biggest browns in the system. From Loop Knot tricks that make it fly, swim like they’re alive. Today’s guest is carrying forward a tradition of innovation like Lee Wolf himself. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Dave (48s): Brian from Trout, tornado is here to show us how he fishes micro streamers. We’re gonna talk about the rigging setups he uses for two flies and why small patterns dominate the minow hatch. Plus, we’re gonna get some tips on reading water and how to know when Browns are staging and how to fish them. Right? Okay, here we go. You can find Brian on Instagram at trout tornado. How you doing Brian? 0 (1m 14s): I’m great today. Thank you. Dave (1m 15s): Yeah, thanks for setting some time today to talk about. I think we’re gonna dig in fully on micro streamers, something that, you know, I think a lot of people are interested in, just streamers in general. You know, it feels like it’s always maybe a better chance to catch a bigger fish on a streamer, but it’s interesting ’cause a lot of people think giant streamers. But we’re gonna talk a little bit smaller today. We’re gonna get into all of that and maybe get a little bit on your background as well. But give us a heads up right now as we’re talking. It’s kind of mid-August, this is probably gonna go live in October. What’s going on for you this summer? How are things going? 0 (1m 48s): Yeah, it’s been going great. I live in upstate New York, so you know, we’ve had a, a nice summer. We’ve got some great small mouth fishing up here, so I’ve been harassing the, the local small mouth with the streamers. So good year so far. Dave (2m 5s): Good, good, good. So yeah, I want to jump into Today I want to talk micro streamers and kind of what you do out there. You’ve got a YouTube channel, which is great, and just talk about some of the details there. But before we get into it, take us back real quick. You’re up in a, a area where we have a lot of listeners kind of in New York. Have you been doing this a while? Are you kind of getting into it late to tell us your background on fly fishing? 0 (2m 27s): Yeah, no, I’ve been doing this for a long time. I started, when I was in college, I was actually in a environmental education camp and I was a camp counselor there and I had been a spin fisherman all growing up with my parents doing the whole warm water thing. And when I was at this, you know, DEC kids camp in De Bruce, New York, which is located, you know, right in the heart of the Catskills. So we have pretty awesome streams that were there. Like the, the Willow, we mock the Delaware system, the beaver kill. And you know, the head of the camp was like, Hey Brian, you love to fish, how about doing this fly fishing thing? 0 (3m 9s): And I really had no idea about it. But this guy came in and he would come in every week and he would teach the kids. His name was Floyd Frank and I didn’t know, but Floyd was actually the head of the local fly fishing chapter. He was a casting instructor at Lee Wolf School. He was a founding member of the Catskill Fly Tires Guild. And So I had, I had Floyd coming in every week for two years during the summers teaching me how to cast, how to tie flies. 0 (3m 49s): And I was the biggest kid And it, it really opened me up to the whole Delaware River system and Yep. A love for child fishing. Dave (3m 57s): Nice, nice. And when did you get started on kind of more of the YouTube and more of the stuff you’re doing now with education and fly fishing? 0 (4m 5s): Yeah, so I’ve been, you know, doing the education side for a long time. Always had a passion helping my local clubs out. But the whole YouTube thing came up during COVID, you know, kinda house bound and really wanted to continue to be able to teach people and just started making videos and the, the videos hit so Yep. You know, got about 6,000 subscribers, which is cool and over 750,000 views on the, the videos. So it resonates with people. Dave (4m 37s): Yeah, nice. And we’ll talk about that a little bit as we go. I think that’ll give people some other resources to take this conversation further on, on streamers today. So, you know, I guess the big thing here, a big question is, you know, micro streamers versus kind of the, you know, maybe the biggest streamers. Like what is the difference? Is there a size? When does it become a micro streamer? 0 (4m 58s): Yeah, So I would say anything that’s below four inches would be considered a micro streamer. Okay. And you know, that’s just my own gauge. I really wanted to, like, I, as I mentioned, I live in New York and our streams for the most part are small. The rivers that I fish on are small and I really wanted to do the whole, you know, Kelly Gallup technique of throwing the big streamers and, but our rivers are tight, they’re small, a lot of them you don’t have the ability to get a back cast and I didn’t have a boat so it was a challenge, you know, to take a full sink line and to get a big back cast behind you and, and get it out. 0 (5m 45s): So yeah, the micro streamers really grew out of a, an innovation to try and still be able to fish streamers but not having the luxury of a big river or being able to get out in a boat. Dave (5m 58s): Yeah. Okay. And what is your home water or what’s the river you fish most? 0 (6m 3s): It would be the Delaware system. So we got the West, the main stem, the east in Connecticut. I fish the Farmington a lot and then, you know, local to me we have the, the bat and kill river. Dave (6m 18s): Okay. And then what would be on that same line with the streamer, so you have say four inches is on the upper end. How small do the micro streamers get? Are you fishing them? 0 (6m 26s): Yeah, my favorite micro streamer is a microburst and it’s only about an inch and an inch and a half long and it’s just made with a little bit of bu a little bit of ice stub And it just articulates and you know, comes alive in the water, so. Dave (6m 46s): Okay. So pretty small, the microburst And it is the microburst. Is that one of your patterns? You have a few out there, right? 0 (6m 51s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s definitely one of ’em, it’s one of the unsung heroes because it’s so simple and I think people look at it and they’re like, nah, that’s not gonna catch fish. But I think it does a really nice job because you can tie it in all different colors so it can imitate any of the small bait fish that are out there. And I, I think that’s kind of the difference is that a lot of people don’t recognize that every year, you know, we all are familiar with insect hatches, but there’s somewhat of a, a minow hatch that happens every year in our rivers and you know, our lakes and our streams as well. Dave (7m 31s): Yeah. The minow hatch. So, and that’s basically what you’re imitating for the most part with the most of your micro streamers is some sort of minnow. Is that typically what it is? 0 (7m 40s): Yeah, correct. So we’ve got days, we have young of the year trout, you know, in the fall and the spring. The, the fish, you know, they spawn when they spawn, obviously the young of the year are born and there’s always that cycle of the young of the year coming up and growing and getting to a point where they’re adults and let’s face it, I mean, I don’t know how many thousands and thousands of eggs, you know, the fish lay in the stream. Yeah. You know, billions we right. When you think about all the fish. But the reality is there’s a very small percentage of those that actually make it to the adult version. 0 (8m 26s): And that whole, you know, sequence from when they’re, you know, just born and they’ve got that sack hanging off of ’em to the point that they’re two to three inches, they’re incredibly vulnerable and the trout, the small mouth, they’re smart. I mean they’re predators and they’re looking for a high caloric intake and they can eat, you know, one small minnow, one small trout or small mouth and they get a heck of a lot higher calorie intake than, you know, eating a nymph or something small like that. Dave (9m 7s): Right. And do you find that with these smaller streamers that you could still find some bigger fish? Is there any any truth to that where, you know, the larger the fly, the bigger the fish or you know, vice versa? 0 (9m 19s): I’m sure there is, you can definitely catch bigger big fish. You know, I, I, I try not to be a a numbers guy, but you know, this year I got a a 27 inch brown on a streamer that’s two and a half, three inches long. I got a a 25 inch brown and then multiple twenties, you know, walleye got a, a walleye that was 27 and a couple small mouth around 18. So the real reason I think that I, you know, I think it was Gary Lafon, he’s like, you know, fish wear others and how others don’t. 0 (10m 1s): And the whole micro streamer piece is really untapped where, you know, a lot of the big fish I think have been pricked by the, you know, the bigger streamers, but they’re just like, ah, there’s an easy meal, you know, and I can eat that without any Yeah. Any repercussions. Dave (10m 21s): Right. They seen the bigger stuff. Yeah. We were, we were fishing. I mean our most recent trip we were fishing, I mean essentially they’re streamers, they were more of the, you know, intruder style or, or similar to that we were fishing for salmon in Alaska. You know, they weren’t huge. They were probably close to that maybe in that four inch range. You know, they weren’t like gigantic, but they were, but they were pretty heavy and big. ’cause we were fishing with like nine, 10 weight spay rods, you know, so, you know, and I don’t know if that, I mean, how do you, like when you get into your fly development or are these things, how do you decide when the thing’s gonna be four inches versus two inches or kind of anything in between? 0 (11m 0s): Yeah, so a couple things. It’s, it’s really dependent on the time of the year and what I’m trying to imitate. You know, if you think about the spring of the year, right, there’s a lot of really small fish that are, are born in the rivers and as the year progresses, obviously they get bigger and they grow And it, I don’t think, you know, small mouth or trout or, you know, that discriminate that they’d be like, oh, that’s a one inch fly versus a three inch fly and I’m not going to eat it. Yeah. But there’s definitely a time when you want to, you know, progress the size of your, your flies. And I kind of cheat, I use two flies and I fish two flies all the time. 0 (11m 45s): I run typically, you know, a lighter weight fly up on the top and then, you know, down below I’ll, I’ll use a, a heavier fly. And I learned those techniques from, you know, like Davey Watton and his whole, you know, wet fly way. And another guy by the name of Kenny Abrams, who’s a a salt water guy, he fished for striped bass using two to three flies. Wow. So you can get away with using two flies and you can cheat the system. Right? Yeah. It’s right. Dave (12m 19s): It’s nuts. How do you do that without, that seems like that’s one of the challenges with especially bigger flies getting tangled. What’s your setup, your rig look like on that and how do you keep it from kinda getting all tangled up? 0 (12m 29s): Yeah, so it’s pretty easy. Typically I’ll have two setups. I have like my five way, just my regular trout casting rod and they’re those airflow leaders that you can put on there like the trout leaders. And then I also have a, a two-handed rig. But either way you end up and you put one of those integrated leaders that are on there and you put a barrel swivel, they’re small spro size number 10, they’re micro swivels. And then I run like a seven foot or five six foot mono liter off of that. And I’ll tie my primary fly. 0 (13m 9s): That’s gonna be the one that’s at the bottom and that’s always the heavier fly. And then up top going back to that barrel swivel. ’cause it serves two purposes. One is to keep the twist out of your line and then the other, you can just tie a dropper on right up on that barrel swivel. And the dropper itself is only three to four inches. And you know, what I found is the small mouth, the trout, I think, you know, we all create this illusion that they’re shy when it comes to leader material. I use 10 pound ultra green. Hmm. And the trout, when they’re keyed in on one of these, you know, small streamers, they don’t care Whether, you know, your line is black or purple or green, they’re just gonna crush that Dave (13m 54s): Thing. Right. Yeah. And what is the, the five a six diameter or the tip it and is that 10 pound as well? Yeah, 0 (14m 0s): Yeah, yeah. The dropper is the exact same. It’s 10 pound. Yeah. Dave (14m 4s): Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And then if you’re gonna go to a small, say a inch and a half fly, just smart, you drop down on your diameter of your tipt. Nope. 0 (14m 13s): No, Dave (14m 13s): But 0 (14m 13s): What I’ll do is I’ll put a loop knot in there and typically I’ll run a, a loop knot and you know, on my streamers. ’cause I, you know, I do believe that it helps with the articulation and if you put a loop knot in front of one of your small micro streamers, even with that, you know, 10 pound, it’s gonna give that fly the ability to, to move to Undulate to, you know, just ride the currents and yeah, it works Dave (14m 43s): Great. Okay. And the loop knot, is that the, what’s the name of it? Is that like the open loop or what’s the name of that knot? 0 (14m 49s): It’s on my YouTube channel. It’s actually the, I just called a loop Knot. Yeah. And it’s got, I don’t know, 104,000 views on it, so. Oh Dave (14m 57s): Really? Yep. 0 (14m 57s): Yeah, guys like it, it’s pretty simple. It’s just a four step loop knot. Dave (15m 3s): Okay. Yeah. And it’s just a couple, I, I am trying to think of the name of the, there’s a few different names of, of the loop knots out there, but essentially it’s a few wraps around And it creates an open loop and then it allows it to a lot more movement is what you’re getting versus having a clinch knot. 0 (15m 17s): Yes. Yeah, exactly. And there’s another little trick that I’ll do with that loop knot too. There’s times when you’re fishing the streamers, let’s say you’ve got a, a floating line on your, you know, your five weight, but you’re not getting any strikes and you’re like, okay, I want to get down into the next water column. Right? Another foot or two down. What you can do is take a, a small brass bead, a small tungsten, and put like a three 16th on there if you wanted to really drop it. If you can envision a loop knot that’s tied to your fly and on the bottom of that loop knot, there’s, you know, that little bow in it, you can actually slide a tungsten bead on there or brass bead and then finish constructing and tying your loop knot and it’ll drop your fly down into the water column and you know, you can twitch and fish it And it becomes like a, a jig fly, which is really, really cool too. 0 (16m 17s): It’s a cool little, you know, tip and trick. Dave (16m 21s): Pescador on the fly offers a full range of fly fishing gear for any angler at any budget with premium barrage delivered directly to you. The LRA G six is the most packable high performance fly rod on the market, performing like a four piece rod, but with unmatched portability in six pieces. And you can get 10% off your next order right now if you use the code wet fly swing at pescador on the fly.com. Never fly without your G six. Discover the L race series and more at pescador on the fly.com. Since 19 72, 4 wheel campers has been building rugged, lightweight campers designed to fit almost any truck and every kind of adventure. Whether you’re keeping it simple like me with a Project M or gearing up for full-time off the grid travel, there’s a four wheel camper built to match your lifestyle. Dave (17m 5s): You can head over to four wheel campers.com right now to use the builder tool to find your perfect topper slide in or flatbed camper for your next journey. So the Ts and Beat is going on the loop, not not just on the leader above it sliding down. It’s actually on the loop. 0 (17m 23s): Yeah, correct. Dave (17m 24s): Okay. Is that on your YouTube channel? Yeah, 0 (17m 26s): Yeah. Oh, it’s, that’s on Dave (17m 27s): YouTube. Okay, good. Yeah, it’s cool. Good. We’ll, we’ll have a link out to that so we can take a look. So that’s the, that’s kinda the open loop. And what was from the, from the swivel up to your fly line, what are you typically using again for your leader? 0 (17m 38s): I’m using one of the, the airflow, they have five foot and 10 foot tips and they come in, I think there’s like seven or eight different variations. So you have floating, hover, intermediate, slow, medium. Okay. Fast sink. Yep. Yeah. Dave (17m 56s): And what are you using for that on this setup? 0 (17m 59s): Like, for my five weight, I’m just using like a, a double taper floating line. Yeah. For my double hand I’m using a S gadget. Okay. Dave (18m 10s): Yeah. That’s great. Yeah, and I think that’s something of interest. I, we obviously we’re hearing more about the trout space stuff. So you find yourself using kind of equally the two, or I guess is this a two-handed sort of trout setup or talk about that? What is this versus when would you use one versus the other? 0 (18m 27s): So the five weight I would use when I’m on dt, you know, in quiet waters, like the Farmington River, you know, isn’t that big. The Batten kill isn’t that big, like 15, 20 yards across at the most, if I’m really trying to be stealthy. ’cause I, you know, I, I believe in the, the lateral line, you know Jason Randall and his book on Trout Sense. Yep. I think we’ve all seen it right. Where you hop into the water and if you’re, you know, lazy or careless, it’ll just scare everything. Yeah. So if I’m in skinny water, I’ll use the five weight, you know, setup. And then for big waters, like if I’m on the, the main stem of the, the Delaware for example, I’m using a two handed rod. 0 (19m 14s): It’s a echo SR three in the realm of fly rods. It’s one of the, the least expensive rods. And then I throw a 275 grain Skagit line on that. So it’s a Rio, I think they call it max short two seventy five. And then I throw that airflow and then, you know, the micro swivel and Oh, Dave (19m 38s): Okay. Yeah. And the rest of the 0 (19m 39s): Rest of the, Dave (19m 39s): Yeah. And is the echo, is that a, the SR three, is that a three weight or it is or Yeah, essentially it’s a three weight. So it would be a, yeah, like a five weight. It’d be similar to a five weight And it would be similar to your five weight single hand rod. Right. Pretty close to that. 0 (19m 51s): Yeah. Correct. And I just want to share something ’cause it’s kind of funny, like the three weight that I use when I first bought it and I was trying to, you know, figure out how the heck to do this stuff with this gadget. ’cause you know, O-P-S-T-I was watching a video, I saw those guys out there, you know, just casting with the single hand rods and fell in love with that whole technique. Anyway, I had that SR three out and I was casting the OPST lines and the tip broke. And actually this is a good story, not the tip broke on it. And I was really, you know, cranky. ’cause I was just into the beginning of my, my fishing day. 0 (20m 33s): Yep. And I took my pair of forceps, I clicked the remnant off. So like two to three inches came off of the tip. Well like two inches. It went to the, the second trail or to the The second. Second guide. Second guide, yeah. And I started casting it and I started fishing it and I started manipulating And it was a hundred times better. Dave (20m 57s): This is the echo. 0 (20m 58s): This is the echo SR three. Okay. So now what I do is I, when I get, you know, the, the tip, I have it professionally trimmed, remove that first two inches and then put a new, no kidding. A new line on there. Dave (21m 14s): So did you fish it? So you put a new tip top on there and and go with it? 0 (21m 18s): Yeah. It’s awesome. Dave (21m 19s): Yeah. So what length is that Rod? 0 (21m 21s): So it’s 10 and a half feet. Dave (21m 24s): 10 and a half. So it’s 10 and a half minus your two makes it 10 foot three inches. 0 (21m 29s): Yeah, yeah, Dave (21m 30s): Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, you should definitely tell the, the echo crew out there. Let ’em know what you got going. I’m sure they’d be interested to hear that. You know, ’cause I know I have heard that from Steve Ray. Jeff, we had an episode, gosh, I’m trying to think which one it was. But it was a flight casting instructor who was telling, telling Tim about the, I think it was when their fir their glass came out, I believe that’s what it was. But he basically gave him some advice. He said, Hey Tim, this glass, I think he said it should be shorter or something. Right. And, and they, and he listened, you know, and I think Echo changed it up. Right. So I think feedback from customers is probably, so you might have something there, you know what I mean? That two inches, it sounds like you got something figured out. 0 (22m 8s): Yeah. And just real quick, I mean, I ended up sharing my story with, of Rod Builder. His name is Steve Godell. So he is Fly Works and he ended up designing a, a fly rod that I use as well. That’s a two-hander. That’s just, it’s an absolute canon. So yeah, if you want, you can do the, you know, the SR three or you can also check out Steve stuff at Fly Works. Dave (22m 37s): Yeah. Flywheel. I’ve heard of them too. That’s awesome. So you’re in, how has that transition been? I’m always interested, you know, we have a lot of spay people and spay curious all that stuff. I mean, you’re, as you get into the two handed stuff, what’s your take on it? Are you kind of going all in on it? Or is it something like kind of maybe just do it for a while and maybe not forever? 0 (22m 56s): No, I, I’m addicted to it. Yeah. I love it. I mean, I fish things a little bit differently than most of the, the trout spay guys in that, like, the majority of my manipulation is, you know, casting upstream, bringing the fly downstream. It’s very rarely that down and a cross. But I love the two hand because one, you know, you can cast forever and your arm never gets tired. The rods are built so they’re super sensitive and powerful. Yep. And then you can manipulate the heck out of the flies, which in my mind, you know, you have to be able to manipulate properly to be successful. 0 (23m 42s): Hmm. Dave (23m 42s): Yeah. And I think that’s something we should dig into here definitely on, on just the techniques and how you do it. Because I think it sounds like you’re bringing together a, a mix. You mentioned Davey Wadden who’s obviously, you know, got his stuff together. And I have heard too, you know, on the casting that the casting a trout spa like you have is actually harder in a lot of ways. And that, that, if you can dial that in, that the bigger stuff is just easier. And I think George Cook said it’s like casting in a phone booth. You know, you gotta keep everything super tight when you’re doing the trout space stuff. So I think that’s cool. You’ve probably, if you’re able to get that out there, you’re probably gonna be, if you wanna ever step it up into the, the bigger stuff, you’ve probably got that. But take us there, like on the water. So, you know, you mentioned a few different waters. Dave (24m 23s): So let’s say what, what was the one common one you’re fishing? The, the, the space stuff? The, the two handed, 0 (24m 28s): I would say the main stem of the Delaware. Dave (24m 30s): Yeah. So main stem of Delaware. This is great. ’cause we’ve talked a little bit about the Delaware, so take us to the way there, you know, first talk about water. Let’s just talk about reading water. How do you know, it sounds like you’re doing some more upstream stuff. What does good water look like for these micro streamers you’re doing? 0 (24m 45s): Well, it depends on the time of the year. So not to get too technical, but you know, let’s say the spring and the summer when the water is, you know, above like that 48 degree mark, you’re gonna wanna be in that faster water. And I would say water that’s moving faster than you can walk, you know, comfortably. But in the, in the cooler months, like in the, you know, the fall Dave (25m 12s): Into, yeah. September, is that when it happens? Yeah. So there, let’s say your fish, the Delaware does, because This episode probably will go out kind of in that range September, October. Well this will be a good time to get out there and the water’s cooler and do some other stuff there. 0 (25m 25s): Yeah. It’s an amazing time to be on the water. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. The, the trout, you know, they’re packing on the calories, right? It’s the whole pres spawn feed. It’s the aggressive, I want to kill everything. But I just wanna highlight too, Dave, I know a lot of people get pigeonholed into, you know, we should only fish streamers in the fall. Yeah. I think that’s another fallacy. You can fish streamers 24 7, 365, you know, so Dave (25m 51s): Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, so you fish ’em and Yeah. As long as you know, you, you know where to find the fish. And, and now has that changed? So you mentioned water type, so riffles, you know, versus say in the fall, so in October that fall time, what, what are those waters you’re looking like? Is this more like a glide or what are you working there? 0 (26m 9s): They’re getting into that tree spawn mode. So they’ll be in and around the spawning areas, but obviously they won’t be, you know, up on, and I, I will never, you know, fish in and around the spawn. So yeah, it’s just that, it’s that pres spawn. So if you know where the fish are gonna be staging, right? ’cause they’re looking for that gravelly area. If you can get into those glides and those buckets that are in and around it, you can do fantastic. And I’ll tell you a little story that I think any of the people around, you know, I think a lot of of people appreciate because the reason why I went to this whole upstream presentation and working my flies downstream as opposed to, you know, across and or down is the Delaware River, like in the fall, and I’m sure there’s other areas like this where you get, you know, a lot of vegetation and as it starts to cool off, the vegetation will break down and start to move down through, you know, the, the water. 0 (27m 16s): And if you do a typical down in the cross presentation, you’re going to get hung up on the, the mud. Hmm. Or the, the Hmong, you know, the weeds, all the crap that’s in there. But, you know, I was standing on the river literally, and all this crap was coming down to catch catching weeds. I started casting upstream and bringing my fly down and I had one of the best, you know, afternoon streamer fishing ever. You know, it was September, it was sunny. There were other people standing around who weren’t catching, you know, fish period, you know, and I caught multiple browns and, and rainbows because they would see that as a natural movement. 0 (27m 58s): Having that fly come down and then just keeping your fly clean of that debris was just an absolute trigger. Dave (28m 4s): Nice. Okay. So that’s another good tip on that. What does it look like? So you found your water, it’s the nice, I’m kind of picturing kind of that water. So let’s just say that they’re staging up, getting ready to spawn in these tail outs and then down below you’ve got a riffle or, or where is the water? Yeah. What is the water you’re fishing? Is it more like pool type water or how, what’s the speed look like? 0 (28m 26s): Yeah, so the, the riffle would, you know, where, you know that the, the browns are gonna be staging and spawning, right? Yeah. Come November, December timeframe and you’ve got these large, you know, glides Yeah. Pools. And typically you’re gonna find, you know, the, the browns in those areas, in those pools. And you’ll know because you know, you can start, you know, casting and typically you’ll find out within the first five, 10 minutes if there’s fish there. Yeah. I also believe, you know, if you don’t get a reaction or response from, you know, fish in a pool, you know, you, it’s time to change up pattern style, color depth and give it, you know, a a little bit more of a, a go, but then get outta there. 0 (29m 15s): You know, you just don’t keep getting the same water over and over. Dave (29m 18s): Right? Yeah. If you don’t know if there’s fish there or not. And then what does it look like? Talk about that upstream cast a little bit. What are you doing there? It, it sounds like you’ve got two flies on once you make the cast, describe that whole process. How are you finding the fish and then like the retrieve and all that? 0 (29m 33s): Yeah, so always start close, right? Even though we all wanna make the hero cast, I cast typically directly upstream. And I’m talking five, 10% up. ’cause you never know if fish are gonna be, you know, at your feet, you’ve taken your time right? Getting into position, so you’re not putting waves out across the water. You’re not wearing fluorescent pink, you know, you’re in cam, you’re in drab clothes. Yeah. And then you put a bow. So you’ve cast it up, you have tension on your line. You put a bow in your line going downstream, and now you’re using your rod tip to manipulate the fly line. And the flies obviously, and you’re using your pulling your fly rod upstream connected to that fly line. 0 (30m 22s): Your fly is coming down, I call it the J hook. Yeah. So your fly comes down, your line comes down, it bends in that j it’s connected to your rod and you’re pulsing your rod and you’re stripping the line. And what it’s doing is it’s effectively pulsing that fly as it comes directly downstream. So your top fly, you know, another really awesome top fly is called an m and m, it’s a micro minnow. It’s a super tiny lene chocolate articulated, you know, pattern. And it’ll twitch on top. And then I’ll have something like a, a copper top on the bottom. And you will have, you’ll be fishing two different water columns as you come down. 0 (31m 5s): That microburst is like within the top two to three inches of the water. And then the, the copper top, which is got a three 16th beat on it and it’s articulated, is moving down probably two to three inches in the, in the water column. So it’s coming down directly in front of you. You know, if you get a strike or a fish, cool. If not, you just keep broadening the distance that you’re casting out. So if you start at 10 degrees upstream, then you go 15, 20, 25, 30 mm And as you go, you’re still doing that J hook where you cast upstream. You let your fly line loop down below and you’re manipulating your fly upstream. 0 (31m 48s): Upstream now. Yeah. Your fly rod is moving upstream. Dave (31m 52s): Gotcha. 0 (31m 54s): One of the things too that, you know, Davey, Davey taught me. I, I went down there and I fished with him. Oh you Dave (31m 60s): Did? Yeah. On the Arkansas, yeah, 0 (32m 2s): On the white. Dave (32m 3s): Oh, sorry, sorry. Yeah, yeah. On, on the white. Yeah. Yeah. That’s cool. 0 (32m 6s): And this was wet fly fishing, which I was in love with for a while too. Yeah. But is that trout will take in different ways. Like Davey taught me the whole, you know, hey, you need to fishies upstream. Right? Cool. But sometimes they don’t like it coming directly upstream. Sometimes they like it coming across, sometimes they like it a little bit more downstream. So yeah, you kind of walk and work through methodically until you figure out the way that the trout want the fly that day. That’s cool. And once you understand how they want it manipulated and you understand the water column that the fish are in, and this is the same with small mouth striped bass, it doesn’t matter. 0 (32m 47s): Then you repeat and you replicate that. And so if you know that fish are gonna be in that, you know, three to five foot section, you know, you make sure that your flies are gonna stay within that zone in that section and you can change your retrieves. So for example, you know, one of the retrieves that I like to do is just a, a very fast rapid pulse, you know, with the rod tip because the micro streamers, you want to make sure that you’re not doing the zombie strip where you’re doing like two to three foot strips. If you do that, you’re not imitating what a small minnow does. 0 (33m 27s): So with that crazy pulse, you’re just manipulating the rod tip in incredibly fast and your small flies, those small micro streamers are just gonna play off of each other and just look, you know, amazing in the water. Hmm. Given those fish, you know, just that I gotta, I gotta kill it. Yeah. You know, it’s an easy meal. It’s high Dave (33m 53s): Value and it’s darting so it’s kind of making quick twitches. So it’s almost like it’s trying to get away. What, and now are you, once you get in there and you cover the water systematically on your way, you know, from short out, are you working your way upstream, like walking upstream once you’ve covered all those degrees there above you 0 (34m 9s): Typically? No, no. I’m lazy. So I’ll get, I’ll get into position in the pool, I’ll fish upstream and then I’ll fish down and then I’ll start walking out into the, into the pool. So I’ll do my best to cover the water close and then I’ll work my way out and then I’ll step, you know, step down. ’cause in the waters that I fish too, I really believe that if you, you get mud into the water, you know, if you create a disturbance, you know the fish are gonna gonna know. Yeah. I do use a, a water master, so I don’t know if folks know what that is. 0 (34m 50s): Oh yeah. Dave (34m 51s): So it’s a little one man basically one man kind of raft that’s got, does it have a open bottom if you need it? Can you stand? It does, 0 (34m 57s): Yeah. So you can stand up and you can fish and then I’ll just sit down in my water master, I’ll go down another, you know, 10, 15 yards, stand back up and you know, fish the pool. Dave (35m 9s): Yeah. Okay. So when you’re out there doing your, like you said, the Jay hook, you cast your fly, you’re covering the water, you basically, usually you’re doing that pulsing, which is it just like a quick little up, like kinda like twitch upstream sort of thing? Is it like a quick little rod tip twitch? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Just like boom, like boom, boom, boom, boom. Like that sort of thing. Or do you, do you change the speeds of that rod tip twitch? 0 (35m 31s): So the short answer is yes. Part of the reason why, you know, I love that shorter SR three and that, you know, fly rod from Fly works is because the speed that the tip recovers is incredibly fast. And the value in having the tip of your fly rod recover fast is that you’re able to manipulate the fly quicker. So think about like, if you have a fiberglass, right? Yeah. And you have a slow tip, you pull, it’s gonna take, I’m gonna make it up a second for that fly rod to recover. If you have a fast rod and a fast tip when you pull on the rod, it’s going to instantly give energy to the fly line, which gives energy to the flies. 0 (36m 20s): Yeah. So with these small micro flies, you’re able to almost create, you know, a, a machine gun, right? It’s like it very fast moving. So it’s ba ba, ba as you’re moving those small articulated flies around. And in my patterns, I try to build materials into the flies. Like articulations, even on these crazy, like the m and m is only an inch and a half long. It’s got, you know, blas micro shanks in there. And so with a little bead in it, and when you’re moving the rod, when you’re bringing it through current, it absolutely comes alive. 0 (37m 3s): And these things look like little, you know, little minnows. It’s not, you know, the old great ghosts that are, you know, our fathers and grandfathers used the fish. These things move and look like they’re, you know, they’re alive. And I think that’s part of the, the trigger. You know, these browns, these small mouth, they see ’em and they just absolutely annihilate ’em. And I love the light, you know, the light rods and the light lines because you connect to one of these, you know, big fish and it’s, it’s game On Dave (37m 37s): Today’s episode is brought to you by trout Routes by OnX, the ultimate mapping app for trout anglers. Whether you’re planning a big road trip or sneaking away for an afternoon session, trout routes helps you find and explore new waters fast. You’ll get detailed maps that include public land boundaries, stream access points, regulations, and other extras like hiking trails and parking spots. I’ve been using it to plan my trips and it’s taken the guesswork out of the process. No more bouncing between multiple tools. 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Use the code swing at checkout to get 15% off your first order. Do you think the, you know, you’re talking about movement or now are you doing any, any sort of stripping or anything with the fly line when you’re doing, you know, taking these back across the water? 0 (39m 18s): Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I do as much as I can with water tension. But you’ve always gotta be, and again, you know, credit to Davey Watton, just to take a step back, like when I was doing wet flies, you know, Davey taught me, you know, multiple flies. He taught me to be able to have line control. You have to be in touch with your line at all times. If you want your flies to animate, you have to be in connection with them. And you know, Davies techniques are, you know, doing the figure eight hand twist retrieve with your left hand and your right hand. You’ve got the rod tip and you’re moving the rod tip. 0 (40m 1s): It’s the same thing with these micro streamers, except it’s a bigger scale, right? You’re using your five-way, you’re using that three-way double hand. So, but you are bringing that line in. You are moving the tip of the rod and you can do the, the rod movement, you know, side to side, up, down, whatever makes you happy. But at the end of the day, you’ve gotta have connection with that fly line because when it goes tight, you know, you gotta be ready to do that strip set. You gotta be able to rip that line, you know, hard and fast. Dave (40m 39s): And what does that typically feel like when the fish takes, was that a pretty It’s awesome. Yeah. And then, and you do a strip set. So this isn’t like setting with your rod, you’re actually strip setting. 0 (40m 50s): Yeah, you gotta strip set the heck out of it. And these big fish, I was out fishing for small mouth a week ago and I was using my two flies. I was using my two handed, you know, fly rod three weight and I had a microburst up top. I had a, a micro clouder on the bottom, which is a killer combo. I’ll talk about that in a second. But the fly hit the water and I started twitching and moving it downstream And it stopped. I set the hook, an 18 inch small mouth went bat, you know, bat crazy. Yeah. Starts running downstream and then like a 14 inch small mouth grabbed the microburst. 0 (41m 32s): And it took me, you know, ’cause I put everything on a, a GoPro So I can watch and learn from it. But I got them in and I was just like, oh my god. That’s insane. Dave (41m 42s): You got ’em both in Yeah, I 0 (41m 44s): Got ’em both in. Yeah. I got the, yeah, the 14 and the 18. It was, it was awesome. It was like catching the striped bass. Yeah. You know, out on Cape Cod, right? Yeah, it was super cool. Dave (41m 53s): What do you, like you we always talk both small and trout fishing and I and is it mostly brown trout or you, you’re catching the equal amount of browns and rainbows there. 0 (42m 2s): Browns are definitely more aggressive than the rainbows, but the rainbows, you know, they definitely eat streamers. And I’ll tell you this too, they eat ’em at night. I was out last week with one of my buddies. It was like four in the morning we’re floating along. I was exhausted. My fly is just dragging along the, the side of the boat. I was, you know, up front. All of a sudden I got a, I had a fish on and I was like, what the heck is that? Got it in And it was a 17 inch bow. Yeah. And it had hit in the pitch dark of night in a foot of water as we were just floating down the river. You know, obviously on a long rod it’s twitching. 0 (42m 45s): Mm. It was a complete surprise. Dave (42m 47s): Right. That’s the great thing. It’s you, you never know, right? It’s always yeah. Nice. So, so cool. So that’s a little bit, I mean I think we’ve covered some high level on this. We talk flies a little bit. Maybe give us some other, are we missing anything on the flies? You want a heads up? Like if somebody’s getting into this and they’re want to get into this micro, so, which sounds a little bit like, I mean it’s basically Davey Watton kind of the wetly kind of wet flyways, but with streamers, right? Is that kind of, if you had to summarize it, is that kind of what it’s, ’cause Davey doesn’t really use streamers, right? He’s all wet flies. 0 (43m 19s): He’s all wet flies. Yeah. I mean he uses some classics, but I think that’s a really good, yeah, it’s high. Yeah. Yeah. I think it really is. Dave (43m 27s): So if somebody, you know, wanted to go learn from Davey, they would probably be getting prepared to basically do what you’re saying as well. Just add some streamers and then do some, obviously some different techniques. But what are the flies a little bit? Maybe describe that. You mentioned a few. Are we missing anything? If somebody wanted to have a few set up to, you know, cover things, what would they need? 0 (43m 48s): I would say number one, as I mentioned is the microburst. It’s awesome because it’s versatile, it’s easy to tie, it’s easy to cast with any rod that anybody has. The copper top is another one that’s got almost 75,000 views out on, on YouTube. It’s a take off of, you know, one of Gallup’s patterns. I mentioned a couple of the different micro game changers. I love them. There’s one that I use again using those micro shanks that’s called a freshwater flounder. That thing’s pretty crazy in the water. It looks like a leach. And I’m sure that’s what the small mouth and the, the trout think it is. 0 (44m 32s): And, and then if anybody out there is a, a carp fisherman, ’cause I love doing that. But the techniques are completely different. There’s one, it’s called the carpet fuzz, which is really fun. And then closing it out, there’s just, if there was one fly that I had to fish for the rest of my life, it would be the clouser style patterns. I’m addicted to those. And I’ve got three different versions. That 27 inch brown that I talked about at the beginning, I caught on a pattern called the S skim fish. Hmm. Clouser, it’s a synthetic clouser, but it’s tied, again, only two and a half, three inches long. 0 (45m 16s): Incredibly sparse. And it’s got some really sweet tungsten eyes on it, which give it some amazing movement in the water. So I think any combination of those would just be a great, you know, a great start. Perfect. Dave (45m 33s): And is the, as you’re talking about the flies, I mean it sounds like some of these have a different take is, you know, you’ve got movement, you got profile and movement, you know, and the, and kind of when you’re fishing, what do you think is the, the most important? Are you kind of thinking about both of those as you’re getting ready to kind of tie and, and fish out there? 0 (45m 50s): Geez, I would say movement is huge. And figuring out, you know, what water column you want to actually have your fly in. Dave (45m 58s): And how do you find, let’s say you’re out there, how would you know? Is that just trial and error? You, you add, you put it out there if you don’t think you’re deep enough, you get down. Or how would you find that level where the fish are 0 (46m 9s): Definitely trial and error. Again, I’d speak, you know, by using those two flies. But I’ll start, you know, shallow and then typically I’ll go heavier because I just find it’s, you know, easier to cast and more pleasurable for me to cast the lighter flies than it is the, the bigger and heavier flies Dave (46m 28s): That it is. Okay. So that’s a good, so start lighter that, that makes sense. And then get heavier. Do you ever, are you ever getting to a point where you’re actually touching the bottom and still and that’s a good place to be in you’re hooking fish? Yeah, 0 (46m 39s): Like in the, in the winter time when that order is, you know, below that 48 mark, you definitely want to be below in using flies that have the, the cones, you know, or the, the lead eyes ts and eyes on ’em to get ’em down there. Yep. Dave (46m 54s): Okay. Nice. Well this, this has been great. I think we could take it outta here. We’re gonna do our, our segment, our our gear talk segment today. This, this one. And we’ll get a few more tips outta here. But I wanna just give a quick shout out to Patagonia Swift current waiters today. This is presented by Patagonia. We love to give them a shout out. They’re doing some great stuff. I’ve been wearing the swift current waiters this year and, and they’ve been pretty sweet, you know, obviously can’t say enough about the company. So we wanna give a big shout off to Patagonia first, and as we start this segment first on your gear, maybe talk about that, we haven’t gone into the gear here, but what, other than the rods, reels, lines and stuff, what else should we be thinking about that would help us with these kind of micro streamers that could be fly tying or fishing? 0 (47m 38s): I would just always say when you, and this is more of a tip than anything. Yeah. As you approach a stream, always take your time and do your best to minimize your impact on the water. Yeah. You know, whether it’s camo, whether it’s stealth. I mean, we spend all sorts of money on equipment, travel, you know, food bev lodging, and then you run into your, you know, your favorite pool and your scary fish down. Yeah. So always take your time to get into position. Dave (48m 8s): Yeah, definitely. How do you, when you’re out there, you know, we’re talking, it’s summer now, it’s probably, I’m guessing pretty hot out there, but as the fall cool down, you get into the winter, are you still fishing? Like when do you cut things off? Are you, are you fishing throughout the winter? 0 (48m 23s): I fish 365 24 7. Yeah, you Dave (48m 26s): Do. So 0 (48m 27s): You Dave (48m 27s): Can, yeah. That’s a great thing. And even where you are, that’s a cool thing. Even though New York gets some rough weather, it’s fishable. You can pick your times. 0 (48m 34s): Yeah, I grew up steelheading and you know, the cold, the winters, you know, I’m known for being crazy, so Dave (48m 44s): Yeah, 0 (48m 44s): It doesn’t matter. It Dave (48m 45s): Doesn’t matter. What’s your, for the winter time as that’s, you know, that’s the other, you know, we’re way away from that. But do you have a cold weather tip? How do you stay warm out there in the winter? 0 (48m 54s): I would say invest in great clothing. Here’s a goofy story for you. Yeah. You know, I was out, the daytime temperature high was gonna be like 32, 33 degrees. It has started. And it was low twenties. I was riding my e-bike in the winter to get to a spot. I had my water master on my back. Dave (49m 17s): Oh, nice. 0 (49m 17s): Got everything, got everything pumped up, all ready to go. My rods rigged. My e-bike battery was dead and I went for a swim. So I was sitting on a, on a bench, you know, in 20 degree weather and just wring my clothes out. And I was wearing, you know, some Under armor. You mentioned Patagonia. I had my Patagonia on Dave (49m 43s): Your Patagonia, was this your jacket? Yeah, my jacket. Like the puffy, was this the puffy jacket or what was 0 (49m 48s): The nano Dave (49m 48s): Puff? Yeah, the nano puff. Yeah, I’ve heard about that one. 0 (49m 51s): I love, I love that stuff. Anyway, I was able to ring it out, school bus cream driving by. The kids all looked at me like I was crazy. I put that stuff back on. I got back into the water and I was able to fish the entire day. Dave (50m 4s): Oh wow. No kidding. Yeah, 0 (50m 7s): I did have to drain my waiters a couple times. Dave (50m 9s): And how did, now how did you fall? So you were on your bike. How did you fall in the water? How did that happen? 0 (50m 14s): I was launching my boat and I was stepping down the, the hill and just my bike went into the water. I went into the water, everything. Oh wow. Except for obviously my boat. Dave (50m 26s): Yeah. So you were, were riding up, you had this e-bike with your Yeah. With your, your boat on your back, and then the rods. Where, where were your rods at? How were you carrying those? 0 (50m 35s): They were in tubes. They were in the water massacre? Yeah. Dave (50m 38s): Oh, okay. In the, so the whole thing’s there and then, and then you’re backing your bike down into the water or how are you, and then describe that a little bit. 0 (50m 45s): Yeah, so my boat was blown up. Yeah. My bike was on the back of my boat and as I’m stepping down backwards like a goof, I just slipped and I fell and my, my bike went completely into the water and I just completely submerged. I was in like two and a half, three feet of water and I was covered from head to toe. I tell you what. Yeah, it woke me up. Dave (51m 5s): Right. And this was in, and this was like winter time, 20, 30 degrees, whatever it was out there. Yeah. 0 (51m 10s): Yeah. It was December. Dave (51m 11s): That says a lot. That definitely says a lot about, about you. That the, you know what I mean, like, a lot of people would be, they’d be kind of just taking it, packing it up and heading home. Right. But you squeezed up your stuff, like got everything, you know what I mean? It’s still wet and you and you went for it. 0 (51m 26s): Yeah, I was helicoptering it over my heads. The kids on the school bus were, you know, I’m sitting there in my skis. Dave (51m 33s): Yeah, that’s pretty. 0 (51m 33s): And I’m sitting on that bench. Right. And they’re just looking at me, I’m sure. Like I’m freaking crazy. Dave (51m 39s): That’s pretty hardcore. That’s good. And, and what is the, so are you still, is the e-bike, is that something you still have around the planet? Yeah, 0 (51m 45s): Yeah, yeah. It’s a rad mini, it’s a photo foldable. If my buddies aren’t able to join me, I do that. So I put my water master all my stuff in there, my lunch, throw it on my back, like 75, 80 pounds and throw it on the bike and away I go. Wow. And yeah, Dave (52m 5s): It’s pretty cool because there’s a whole bunch of e-bikes out there. Do they, what is the best thing about the e-bike? Obviously you don’t have to pedal or there’s certain times you don’t, but what do you love about the e-bike and then how long does a battery last on the e-bike? If you’re going like up and down hills and stuff? 0 (52m 20s): Well, you can go about 22, 23 miles an hour on them, which is great. So I usually do between an eight and a 10 mile float. So it takes me about, you know, 20, 30 minutes to go. It gives you a hundred percent freedom to hit any water that you want between the water master and the e-bike. The battery will, will last. You know, like on that day it lasted, I think that was nine miles, you know. Oh, wow. In, in 20 degrees. So, but they’ll go further if you pedal. I’m lazy because I’m all geared up So I my Dave (52m 59s): Start 0 (52m 59s): Sweating and I don’t wanna Yeah, exactly. Dave (53m 1s): Yeah. So night miles. So basically you take off your, and then do you do the thing with your shuttle, so you drop your boat? Or how do you do that? How do you do your shuttle or describe that a little bit. 0 (53m 10s): Yeah, my truck is at the takeout. Yep. Everything’s in the backpack. I got my e-bike. I hop on my e-bike, that’s it. I ride up river. Yep. And then Dave (53m 19s): Drop it in. 0 (53m 20s): Drop it in, Dave (53m 20s): And then lock your bike up to a tree or something. 0 (53m 23s): No, no, it’s foldable. So the cool thing is it goes right on the back of my boat. Dave (53m 26s): Oh wow. So your bike actually, so those boats, what are they called again? The, the one man, 0 (53m 32s): It’s called a Rad Mini. Oh, Dave (53m 33s): Your Rad Mini. And then the boat. The boat you’re floating in. 0 (53m 35s): It’s a water master Kodiak. Dave (53m 37s): Yeah. So the Water Masters have enough room that you could actually throw a bike, which probably isn’t super light on the back. 0 (53m 43s): Yeah, correct. It’s awesome. Wow. Dave (53m 45s): You got quite the setup and 0 (53m 46s): That Rad mini you can fold in half, so it’s not the entire, you know, the, the entire bike length isn’t laying outside. Dave (53m 53s): That’s sweet. Yeah. This is like the ultimate setup for Yeah. Doing it yourself, for sure. Yeah. Do those boats, how do they do in through, I don’t know if you’ve had ’em through Whitewater or any rapids like stuff to, how do they do through that? 0 (54m 6s): They do great. I’ve had it through two Rapids by mistake And it wasn’t great planning on my part. But yeah, they do incredibly well. I’ll just say this, it made me pucker. The boat did fine, but yeah, I didn’t wanna do it again. Dave (54m 22s): That’s sweet. Yeah, the Water Master is definitely, there’s tons of boats out there, but they feel like they’re one that’s been going strong for a while. That’s great. Okay. Yeah, so yeah. Well let’s get back in. Just take us outta here, here with a couple more tips. So, you know, we’re talked today about the micro streamers and you know, anything below four inches, which is still a pretty decent size, but you know, you can get down to smaller one inch or in that range. What are a few tips you’re telling us today if we’re thinking, okay, this sounds like something we wanna get ready for, you know, you’re on the water, what would you be telling me if I were to have more success Today? 0 (54m 54s): I would say, take your time, be methodical. Don’t be frustrated, you know, show up at the river that you’re gonna fish with a fly that’s gonna fish appropriately. And what I mean by that is if you show up in the spring and the water’s cruising, you know, don’t use a a light fly that’s gonna skip across the top of the water column. You want one that’s gonna get down to where the fish are, you know, understand what your forage is within the river. Like the small mount fishery that I have that’s close to my house has adult river herring blue back herring that go up from the Atlantic Ocean every year. And they come up through the Hudson, they spawn, and then right now there’s like inch and a half to two inch blue back herring that are in there, and the small mount just gorge on them. 0 (55m 45s): So if you went in there with a, you know, a four inch fly, you wouldn’t do squat. But when you start fishing, the the right size fly for the forage that’s in the river, you’re gonna see your catch rates go up incredibly. Dave (56m 0s): Okay. Yeah. Blueback herring. That’s, that’s, that’s a cool thing about that river system, right? You’ve got all sorts of species and you know, it, it seems like it’s hard to get a handle on. Do you feel like, you know, the Delaware, that entire thing from bottom to top pretty well? 0 (56m 15s): No. Yeah. Anybody that does, I think they’re full of it, but, but you can at least have some patterns that, you know, approximate the size of the different species that are in there, which makes it a lot of fun. Dave (56m 29s): Okay, cool. And what’s your, take us away with the, with the YouTube. You got this channel, we’re, I’m looking at some of the popular videos you’ve got. Yeah. I mean, you get a ton of views. You got the, the knots, you got some of your fly patterns, all this. What’s been your secret to success? Just providing great content or how have you got all of the views and what, you know, how has that worked for you? 0 (56m 47s): I just, I try to put myself in the seat of a beginner, intermediate, or an expert fly fishermen. I try to put different content on the channel that’s gonna help everyone. So my, my tying videos, I do them multi-angle. So you’ve got top-down view, you’ve got facing view. I go through them in a timely fashion trying to make sure that people can, you know, understand the steps that you’re going through. I’ve done some high speed, you know, like Brian Wise does Yeah. With the Ozarks. But I enjoy doing the, the long ties to help people. 0 (57m 27s): And then I also, there’s a, a particular piece that I’ve been doing recently, which is called I it before You Tie it, because what I try to share are only patterns that I trust and believe in and that I’ve caught fish on. And So I think a lot of people get caught in the, it’s a sexy looking fly, so it’s gonna catch fish. Yeah. And the, the eye before you tie it is, All right, Brian, you know, alright, trout tornado, show me what the heck you got, let’s see this fly in action. And I do underwater shots showing how it looks underwater. 0 (58m 9s): And then I take people out and I show ’em a successful day of, you know, fishing with that fly, whether it’s for trout or small mouth or carb or striped bass. So, you know, trying to give people that, All right, this is legit. It’s not some fly that was created to sell, you know, fly tiny materials. Dave (58m 27s): Right. That hasn’t caught fish or fished. And are you, are you doing some guiding out there as well? 0 (58m 32s): Zero guiding. I’m just a guy that loves, like I’ll, you know, I teach try to unlimited kids camp. I teach casting for recovery. I do, I do local, local clubs. So, you know, if people wanna reach out to me, I’m happy to do, you know, presentations either, you know, in person or, or remote. Dave (58m 55s): Perfect. Well, I think that’s enough resources to get people going here. So we will send everybody out to at Trout tornado on Instagram and on YouTube as well. I guess that’s everywhere. Those are the, the main channels, right? To track you down and see what you got going. 0 (59m 10s): Yeah. Yes. Yep. And people feel free to reach out to me on those. I check it, you know, daily and, and get back to people and always welcome, you know, questions. Dave (59m 21s): Okay. Awesome. All right, Brian. Well thanks for all the, the time today and all the great knowledge and we’ll definitely look forward to keeping in touch and, and trying out some of these micro streamers coming up this year. Thanks again. 0 (59m 33s): Yeah, I love it. Thank you. Thanks Dave. Dave (59m 36s): All right, hope you enjoyed that one. Check in with Brian at Trout Tornado on YouTube. Check out all of his videos. You can follow up with him anytime. Let him know you heard this podcast. If you’re into a trip out to the Delaware, I’d love to hear from you. We’ve got new trips going on all around the country. Go to web fly swing.com/pro if you wanna get connected to our community and take this the next step further. All right, I gotta get outta here. That’s all I have. Appreciate you for stopping in all the way till the very end here and hope you have a great day. Hope you have a great evening or morning, wherever it is in the world you are. And look forward to talking to you on that next episode. Have a good one.