Are you ready to fish one of the best tailwaters out west? Today, we’re talking about fly fishing the Land of the Giants on the Missouri River with Jeff Lattig from Living Water Guide.
Jeff shares tips on fishing rivers and reservoirs, even in winter. We’re talking about the must-have fly color for winter, how to avoid a sloppy mend, and why the short leash nymphing method might just change the way you fish.
03:06 – Winter on the Missouri River is slightly different, but it’s still a great time to catch some big fish. The day usually starts later, at around 9:30 or 10 AM, just to let the sun warm things up a bit.
Jeff talks about fishing deep, slow winter water and using flies like pink scuds and worms. If the wind is calm, you might even get some great midge fishing with dry flies. Jeff says pink flies, like pill poppers and lightning bugs, are popular in winter.
Jeff said downstream hook sets can be challenging for beginners. You must wait for the fish to take the fly before setting the hook.
Jeff says the key is patience. You want to wait until the fish completely takes the fly. Here’s what Jeff recommends to avoid sloppy mends:
The leader size for dry fly fishing in Missouri depends on the fly you’re using. Here’s the breakdown:
The technique stays the same even in the winter. Jeff says that if there aren’t many fish rising, they fish blind.
13:03 – Hopper season runs from late July through September. During this time, Jeff targets shallow waters (less than 2 feet deep) with grasshoppers. Here’s what you should look for:
Missouri is known for its epic grasshopper fishing, but other hatches like PMDs, caddis, tricks, and pseudocloeons.
17:34 – Short leash nymphing is a technique where you target super shallow water, where larger fish tend to feed. The method involves using soft landing indicators placed a few feet above the flies, typically two to three feet.
To find fish in shallow water, look for areas where the water gets shallow, like gravel bars, shorelines, or center river flats. These are the spots you want to target when nymphing.
Make sure your flies, indicators, and weight are set for that depth. Short leash nymphing makes it easy because you can visually spot those shallow areas and focus your efforts there.
Weeds can be a big issue when nymphing, especially in the summer months in Missouri. Sometimes, you might need to switch to unweighted flies to float over weed beds, especially in faster or deeper water.
Jeff says that areas near the dam have less vegetation due to cooler water, but warmer temperatures bring more weeds further downriver.
The Land of Giants is a stretch of river below Hauser Dam, about 3 to 4 miles long, and known for its huge fish. You can catch fish around 18 to 22 inches, with some reaching 24 inches or more.
This section is regulated with permits. Only 50 guides can operate there for commercial use. Jeff says they use jet boats when fly fishing the Land of the Giants.
26:45 – You don’t need a drift boat to fish the Missouri, but it helps. Wade fishing can be great, especially when flows are low. Below Hauser Dam is the sweet spot for guided trips. If you’re into walleye or spin fishing, places like Hauser or Canyon Ferry Reservoirs are options, too, but most fly fishing happens below Hauser.
June and July are the best months for fly fishing in the Land of the Giants. The main hatches are pale morning duns and caddis. As summer turns into fall, expect Trico and pseudocloeons, and then in late October, the Blue-wing olives show up. Even in winter, there’s still fishing with midges and chironomids.
You don’t need to match the hatch exactly—it’s more about the drift and timing. Here are some top choices for flies that work great in winter:
Episode Transcript
Dave (2s):
Do you think you have a better chance to catch a trophy trout in a steel water or in a stream? And are you interested in finding out how to get to the right depth on a fish every time so you have more action on the water This year? Today we are heading into the Land of Giants, and you’re gonna get some amazing tips on fishing. One of the great tail waters out west. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Hey, what’s happening today? This is Dave host of the We Fly Swing podcast. I’ve been fly fishing since I was a little kid. I grew up around a little fly shop and have created one of the largest fly fishing podcasts in this country. I’ve also interviewed more of the greatest fly anglers and outfitters than just about anyone out there.
Dave (46s):
Jeff Ladi, Missouri River Guide and Outfitter is going to show us how to fish rivers and the reservoirs in the great Missouri area. You’re gonna find out how to catch fish in the middle of winter and what the number one color is you have to have if you’re fish in the winter. If you’re heading out there today, this is the color we’re gonna talk about today. Plus we’re gonna find out how to avoid a sloppy mend, how to present that fly, and what the short leash nip method is all about. This might surprise you today, the short leash nip method. Plus, we’re gonna take you up the river on a jet sled and fish back down in the quiet comfort and experience the big mo. Let’s find out why we need to leave it in the water longer. Jeff la from living water guide.com.
Dave (1m 29s):
How you doing, Jeff?
2 (1m 31s):
I’m doing fantastic. Thanks for having me.
Dave (1m 33s):
Yeah, thanks for setting some time aside today to dig into, you know, the Missouri River. We’ve been talking a little about the Missouri, we’ve been up and around Helena, you know, This year I actually drove through there. We stopped in and had a, had a beverage and hung out a bit. And yeah, we’re excited because I think I’m gonna be doing more in that area. So today we’re gonna talk the Missouri is I think your focus. So we’re gonna talk Missouri River and just kind of throughout the year what you’re doing out there. So first off, yeah, how are things going? What are you up to this time of year? We’re in the holiday season.
2 (2m 1s):
Yeah, so things are, well, yeah, kind of booking season for us. So yeah, a little bit of office time, kind of playing catch up on, you know, recording trips with the Board of Outfitters and you know, gathering w nines from guides and booking trips. And then when we can break away, we’re, we’re doing a little bit of fishing, but mostly chasing upland birds.
Dave (2m 20s):
Yeah, good. I, I love that. I think there’s a lot of hunters in our audience and you know, I’m not sure how many, but, but quite a few. And I love upland bird. It’s been a while. What’s that look like out there? Are you hunting? Do you have to drive far to get some upland?
2 (2m 34s):
Yeah, so really, you know, the Helen, so it really just depends on, on what we’re targeting. So, you know, five minutes from my house, actually, you know, in my backyard we’ve got mountain grouse, which, you know, fall under the rough grouse, blue grouse and spruce grouse. And then, you know, we can drive a little further towards the prairie and get into pheasants and Hungarian partridge and sharp tail grouse.
Dave (2m 55s):
Nice. So, yeah, I mean that’s another thing out there and we’ll talk about this as we go because I think, I think there’s a lot of things to do out there, especially, I mean, the wintertime, so the cold weather in Montana isn’t slowing you down for hunting at all.
2 (3m 6s):
Yeah. You know, so we had a really, I mean so far it’s been really, really mild. We haven’t had a lot of snow. I mean, there’s a little bit of snow at elevation. We haven’t had much snow and we haven’t had any brutal cold. So yeah, we’ve been able to get out and recreate and I, I, you know, went for a, a little hunt yesterday and it was 45 degrees and sunny, no wind. And I’m like, man, probably should’ve went fishing today. But no, our, our weather’s been really, really nice. So, you know, kind of the other side of the coin is getting nervous, like ba we need some snow, you know, we need some snow to stay in our rivers, so hopefully wind will show up here soon.
Dave (3m 39s):
Yeah, definitely. Well, let’s talk about the Missouri, maybe let’s just start with, I know you fish mostly during the typical season, which would be, you know, after the springtime, you know, throughout the summer. And the Missouri is known for, you know, a lot, a lot of fish, a lot of big fish and all of that. So we’re gonna talk about that, but what does it look like this time of year? So let’s just say it’s mid-January, you’re in January and you weren’t doing a guide trip that you were going, you had a day. Maybe talk about that. What does the day day have to look like to get out there in the water and say the wintertime?
2 (4m 5s):
Yeah, so it, it would really depend on the client whether we were doing the land of giant section in the jet boat or we were doing what we constitute as a lower river, which is below Holter dam. But you know, for the most part, you know, a little bit later starts, you know, probably launch at nine 30 or 10, just let the sun get up just a little bit. And yeah, we’re targeting that real slow, deep winter water, you know, this time of year as far as bugs we’re, we’re fishing a lot of junk flies, you know, pink stuff, so bugs, you know, that’s kind of the deal. So bugs and scuds worms, just anything pink really they eat, you know? And then if there’s no wind we can get some pretty darn good midge fishing for dry fly fishing.
Dave (4m 44s):
And why is pink the secret color in the winter?
2 (4m 47s):
It’s a Missouri River thing. They just like pink, you know, anything fire bead this time of year is great. You know, sow bugs are in our system, you know, all year long. So that’s pretty much the staples, you know, to be more specific, like, you know, pill poppers, radiation betas, you know, anything that’s got a pink bead, you know, pink lightning bugs. They tend to not be too picky this time of year as long as it’s pink, as
Dave (5m 11s):
Long as it’s pink. That’s awesome. And what, what does that look like on the, so you’re talking slow, deeper waters, how are you fishing these pink flies in the winter?
2 (5m 19s):
Yeah, so we’re running them pretty, you know, fairly deep maybe, you know, indicator five to six foot to a BB split shot and then dropping two NIMS off and looking for that slower water. You know, those fish don’t want to expend a whole lot of energy. So we’re just looking for that slower water, you know, and just kind of hunt that stuff, you know. And then like I said, we can get some pretty good midge fishing in the winter and you know, and in those cases we’re just looking for those, looking for rising fish and we’ll park on ’em and, you know, and throw midge clusters and Griff of gnats and, and that kind of stuff at those fish.
Dave (5m 51s):
Okay. How do you know, I mean, you’re gonna see these mid, maybe talk about that a little more on the midge fishing. If you, are you parking anchoring up in a, a spot? Are you getting out? What does that look like as far as trying to target those fish?
2 (6m 3s):
Yeah, so typically, you know, we say drive fly fishing on the Missouri for the most part. You know, we anchor above the fish and we do downstream presentations. So good reach cast stack men feed the fly into the fish and hopefully they eat
Dave (6m 17s):
It. And what are the sizes of those midges that you’re typically using?
2 (6m 21s):
I mean, so if you’re fishing like an actual midge, you know, 18 to 20, I lean more towards the clusters just ’cause you can get away with a little bit bigger fly. So I would, you know, fish is 16 or 18 Midge cluster, you know, ’cause when you see all those midges on the water, they’re definitely starting, you know, they mat up, they, they stick together in those clumps and that’s really what those fish are taking.
Dave (6m 40s):
Oh, okay. And so is the Midge cluster and what would wait, what would be a fly be that’s mimicking that?
2 (6m 46s):
You know, a stand would be a griffis nat. Yeah.
Dave (6m 48s):
Gotcha. Okay. So that’s, you mean there’s or a darker
2 (6m 51s):
Buzz ball.
Dave (6m 52s):
Okay. Buzz moment. Gotcha. And then is it easier to catch fish, I mean, take away the weather, but do you think it’s easier to catch fish in the winter versus summer spring or much harder?
2 (7m 3s):
Yeah, I mean, winter, you know, the fish aren’t quite as educated, but you know, their metabolism isn’t quite what it is. You and water temperatures are right. You know, they, the fish are cold and, and a little bit lethargic. So, I mean, I like the winter fishing mainly because, you know, you have solitude, you know, there’s nobody, so, yeah, I mean, you know, they’re still Missouri River fish, they can still be picky. They can still, you know, be, you know, they, these fish are definitely, you know, they see a lot and they’re smart. So drift is everything. But yeah, as a rule, I feel like they’re, they’re a little dumber. Yeah. You know, they, they don’t get the pressure that you see, you know, in the months like June and July, so you can get away with a little drag or a little, you know, a little sloppy cast here and there.
2 (7m 43s):
Yeah.
Dave (7m 44s):
And, and what does June July look like versus the winter and the, you know, the boat traffic?
2 (7m 49s):
Yeah, June July is kind of peak season for us. You know, we’re written into PMDs and Cadis and all that kind of stuff in the dryly world. Yeah. So our, our PMD hatch is probably the most popular one. You know, you can just see blankets to these yellow mayfly just sailing down the river and fish up in every direction. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what’s cool about the Missouri is, you know, like we talk about it as a, as a dry fly fishery. And it is, it’s, it’s an epic dry fly fishery. But the cool thing about the Missouri is you could take the very best angler and throw a dry and humble that guy, but then you could take someone who’s never touched a fly rod and go to the other side of the river and put on two nymphs and a bobber and a split shot and that person could catch fish.
2 (8m 31s):
So, you know, you can deploy any methods that, that you choose based on angler skill level. You know, we, like I said, we talk a lot about dry fly fishing, but you know, some folks are just getting into just getting into fly fishing and, you know, dry fly fishing in the Missouri isn’t something that you’re gonna figure out or learn in a day. You know, it can be very, very technical, you know, so that’s what makes the river, I think, super special is you could dry fly fish and then you could fish with a, a, a brand new angler and and have success.
Dave (8m 58s):
Gotcha. Is dry fly fishing the Missouri harder than dry fly fishing? The, the Clark Fork or other rivers out there?
2 (9m 6s):
You know, I think what makes the Missouri a little bit more technical is, is just the flies are smaller. So for example, let’s say we’re, you know, on the Clark Fork or the Blackfoot and we’re throwing a grasshopper or a big chubby Chernobyl and I do a sloppy mend. My fly’s gonna stay riding high, where if I’ve got a little 18 parachute or a 20 parachute and I sloppy mend, you know, that fly has now sunk, you know, so that makes, you know, that adds to the difficulty, you know. And then in the summer, you know, we do have weeds. So we get, you know, weeds floating through the water columns, weed floating on the surface, so you know, you can make the perfect cast a perfect presentation and then your fly picks up a weed. So there’s just a little bit more variables to drive fly fishing on the misery.
2 (9m 46s):
Gotcha. And I think most folks, they’re not used to anchoring above fish. You know, for the most part, you know, guys will get out and they’ll cast upstream where 90% of what we’re doing is a downstream presentation. So, you know, aerial mends are critical, you know, being able to stack, mend and feed line are critical. And then, you know, obviously setting the hook when you have all that line out. So a downstream hook set can be challenging for people because they see the fish come up and what they think, the fish eats the fly and they, they pull the fly. So you really gotta wait for them to take it. Mm.
Dave (10m 17s):
So talk about that. How, what’s the tip on waiting to take? How do you know when to wait before when to set the hook?
2 (10m 22s):
Yeah, so you hear some people say like law the queen or whatever. I, I usually just, hopefully there’s enough slack in the system where your client, you know, by the time they recover the slack then they, they’ve got the fish. But I like to see the fly completely disappear, you know, come up, they roll on it and let the fly completely disappear and then, and then you rod.
Dave (10m 41s):
Right, right. That makes sense. And you mentioned the mens, so I guess you talked about a little bit, but how do you avoid the sloppy men and then what are the mens everybody you should know when you’re, before you get out there?
2 (10m 50s):
Yeah, so aerial mens are a big thing, like recoil cast, the, the number one thing that we use on the Missouri when drive flight fishing is probably your reach cast. You know, so you’re, you’re casting at your target and then you’re moving your rod upstream and then as soon as you do that you start stacking line out, you know, feeding it by either wiggling tip or you know, whatever method you use. But we’re, we’re trying to get line out in a straight line to feed. So that fly just, you know, rides perfectly clean and doesn’t drag and doesn’t sink. Now, I mean the beauty of the, you know, anchoring above the fish is the first thing the fish sees is the fly, you know, so you hear a lot of guys talk about these extraordinary long leaders and all this stuff. Yeah. I don’t get real crazy with long leaders, you know, 12, you know, mainly, you know, if a guy can catch a 15 foot leader, yeah you’re definitely, you know, that’s the way to go.
2 (11m 37s):
But most folks can’t turn over leaders that long. So when you’re above the fish and the first thing they see is the fly, I think you can get away with a little bit shorter leader. When I say short leader, I mean, you know, nine foot, 12 foot.
Dave (11m 48s):
Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. And what’s your typical, I guess we could take it to, you know, in the summertime, what’s your typical leader kind of x are you using there?
2 (11m 59s):
So really it depends on fly size, but you know, throwing like eighteens we’re doing, you know, four to five x is pretty standard. If we’re using, you know, chubby chernobyls or grasshoppers, we might, you know, go to two or three x so it doesn’t twist and it turns over well.
Dave (12m 11s):
Okay. Yeah, your standard dry fly. So that’s it. So, and then we’re talking midges. So same thing, you’re gonna obviously go down smaller, but is the reach cast still, I mean, same thing in the wintertime, you’re still anchoring above and drifting it down to these fish in the winter.
2 (12m 25s):
Yep. Yeah, same, same program. Yep. Same program. And then a lot of times where, you know, if there’s not a lot of fish up, we’ll fish blind, you know, sometimes we get the dry fly only guy, you know, so we’ll put on a big Cass or a big atoms and they can cast it and we’ll just chase it down. So we’re just fishing blind to, you know, whatever, you know, pretty much hitting objectives like, you know, that looks like a fishy spot. Pick it up, put it down, let it run down the bank. But usually when we talk dry fly fishing on the Missouri, it’s, it’s anchored above the fish. But there are times that we do fish, you know, blind, especially during hopper season.
Dave (12m 59s):
Okay. During hopper season. And what, what is that? So once hopper season comes up, what, what does that look like?
2 (13m 3s):
Yeah, so that’s usually, you know, end of July through August and into September. Yeah. Mainly just targeting shallow water, you know, with the grasshoppers, you know, I like to fish water that’s less than two feet, you know, your faster, choppy, more oxygen aged stuff, little current breaks, structure, obviously wood, you know, the old saying is wood is good and you know, we can fish it just a single hopper or a hopper with a dropper.
Dave (13m 28s):
Yeah, just hopper dropper. But
2 (13m 29s):
I would say as a rule, the misery is an, you know, an epic grasshopper river.
Dave (13m 34s):
So the PMDs, as far as what it’s kind of known for, kind more of that epic stuff is PMDs. What, what are the other hatches?
2 (13m 41s):
PMDs caddish tri goes pseudo callons, which are pretty much essentially the pseudo is like a small bluing olive. So if you looked at it, it looks just like a bluing olive, but really small, you know, size 20 to 24 probably. Hmm. And usually, you know, when we get a spinner fall from them is when the fish will come up. You know, once those fish spinner fall, then those fish will be in the slicks, you know, eating that stuff.
Dave (14m 6s):
Okay. Talk about that a little bit on the spinner fall. We’ve talked a little bit about this in the past, but what is the difference between the spinner fall and the other part of the life cycle of the hatch?
2 (14m 15s):
Sure. Yeah. So, you know, the mayfly hatches, you know, we can talk about trico ’cause that’s kind of the big one. So, you know, we launch in the morning, you know, you’ll see these big swarms of trico and those are mating trico. So you know, you’ll see these big clouds above the trees and above the river. And you know, there’s some folks that’ll say, okay, once the air temperature hits a certain point or time of day, but typically between nine 30 and 10 30, once those flies are done mating, they die and then they’ll hit the water and their wings will be laid out spent and they’ll just be big mats of them. And then that’s when those fish will come up and just start gorging. Wow. So, you know, that season a lot of dryly only guys will kind of want to get to their spot, drop the anchor and and wait for it to happen.
2 (14m 59s):
Now with that said, if we get any bit of wind, that’ll definitely affect it. So you want no wind, it seems like those real hot humid mornings or the, or the, or the mornings where it really, really goes down.
Dave (15m 10s):
Oh, right, right, right. Yeah. So you don’t want, and wind is pretty common out there, right?
2 (15m 15s):
It can be, yeah. Yeah. The Missouri’s known to be windy and I, and that’s why you see a lot of guides in, in skiff style drift boats. You don’t see a lot of that, you know, big bowed McKenzie style drift boats. A lot of, a lot of Missouri River guides are in skiff style boats with the leg braces removed.
Dave (15m 33s):
Oh really? Yeah. Which
2 (15m 34s):
Is kind of unique. You know, you, you look at a lot of western rivers and everybody’s, everybody’s standing up and there are legs in a leg brace where, you know, if you’re serious about dry fly fishing or you’re serious about, you know, a tactic that we use called short leash Ming, where you’re targeting shallow water, sitting down is key. You know, I really think the fish see you, you know, you don’t use your legs to cast. So, you know, on my personal boat we remove the leg braces to, you know, encourage clients to stay seated. Right.
Dave (15m 60s):
Well that’s kind of a bogus too for some people, right? Like not having to stand all day that, that, that’s kind of probably some people love that.
2 (16m 6s):
Yeah. A lot of folks will say like, man, I don’t know that I can fish sitting down. And you know, we kind of force ’em like, hey, there’s no leg braces on the boat, so like, keep your bottom in the seat. We don’t need you falling out. And by the end of the day they’re like, man, I I, I don’t have the leg fatigue, I don’t have the back fatigue. And I think once people sit down, they can really appreciate it. And I think you get more fish than that, you know, especially, like I said, when you’re targeting that shallow water, you know, and especially when you’re dry fly fishing, staying seeded is, is stealthy and yeah, just, it just keeps your profile down.
Dave (16m 38s):
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Dave (17m 23s):
Gear up with the heated core base layer and make every cast count this season. Well, let’s hear bit more about that shortle nipping and maybe just nipping in general what that looks like. So yeah, what is the short leash nipping?
2 (17m 34s):
Yeah, so short leash nipping is probably, it’s probably one of my favorite ways to fish. So what we’re doing is we’re targeting really shallow water. And something that you hear a lot of from clients is like, I never would’ve believed a fish that big would be in that shallow of water. So yeah, with a short leash, we’re using soft landing indicators. One of the most popular ones you see on the Missouri is the puls indicator, the stick ons. Mm. And a lot of guys will take the stick-on indicators and just sandwich them between their leaders, you know, and, and you’re setting that based on the ti you know, the depth of water that you’re targeting. But you know, as a rule, a lot of guys are putting those soft landing indicators, you know, two foot above the top fly. So it’s just two nymphs and then a soft landing indicator, no weight, and you’re just casting to those really shallow objectives.
2 (18m 20s):
You know, gravel bars, little drops. I would say a lot of our biggest fish that we see off the river come out of water that’s less than a foot.
Dave (18m 28s):
Wow. No kidding. You would think that, you know, just the bigger fish are holding down, hunkered down in the deeper water. Right. But they’re not, they’re probably what out there, it’s a better place to feed or why do you think they’re in the shallow water?
2 (18m 38s):
Yeah, I think they move up, you know, so it’s, it’s almost like, so I come from a salt water background. I, I got it in salt water for 10 years before I, you know, moved to Montana. But I think it’s a lot like flats fishing. Those fish will hold in a little deeper water for safety. And then once the bugs get moving and we get a pretty good hatch, you know, those fish will move up shallow and begin to feed. They don’t have to travel far to, to take dries. You know, if it’s in eight inches of water, they don’t need to move far to take those flies off the surface or an emerging insect. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, like a 12 inch fish, you know, might be worried about getting taken off by an osprey or an eagle and eight inches of water, but a two foot fish, I don’t think is worried about it.
Dave (19m 15s):
Right, right. This is awesome. So the short sniffing is basically, yeah, you’re, you’re kind of like you said within, is it a couple feet? The indicators two feet above the fly?
2 (19m 23s):
Yeah, two to three feet, you know, and obviously, you know, that’ll change, you know, sometimes, we’ll we’re coming up on a flat that we know it’s a little shallow and your angle is hanging a little bit, we’ll pull over and make a little adjustment, you know, drop the indicator down six inches. But the key to that is a soft landing indicator. Some guys use a little ORs bobbers, a little airlock bobbers. But I, I think if you’re, you’re getting serious about it, you for sure want a soft landing indicator to not spook anything off that flat when it lands. But the cool thing about the short leaching thing is it’s just a little more active, you know, it’s not like just flopping a bobber over the side of the boat and your guide’s just chasing the bobber down. You know, it requires a little more precision from the angler. You know, a lot more casting, hitting objectives, making sure that those flies are that six inches to a photo water.
2 (20m 5s):
And the, you know, the bites are incredibly explosive.
Dave (20m 7s):
Really. Are you doing this from a boat or are you getting out and doing this?
2 (20m 12s):
Oh, we’re doing it from a boat. Yeah, we’re doing it from a boat. Yeah.
Dave (20m 14s):
So the boat’s just, you can cover more ground and I mean, you guys aren’t needing to get out at all of the boat. You’re not fishing off the bank at all.
2 (20m 21s):
You know, there’s some side channels that, you know, we, we might park a boat out, you know, park a boat and get out and wait a little bit, you know, and sometimes anglers want to get out, they’re, you know, they see a fish and we feel like we might be able to make a better approach on foot, you know, we’ll, we’ll definitely do that. But you know, most of the time we’re, we’re in the boat.
Dave (20m 38s):
Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. So the short lease, so the, the idea being like, how are you finding, so, I mean obviously you know where these fish hold, but if somebody’s new, they’re going down the river and they’re wanting to find these fish in the shallow waters, how would they find the fish? How would they know what spot to fish?
2 (20m 52s):
Yeah, so you can, I mean, you can just pound the shorelines so you know that you’re in the right depth. So, you know, when we’re talking about nymphing on the Missouri, it, it’s all about the depth. You know, make sure that your indicators and flies and weight is set for the depth that you want to target. You know, I think those fish live in a wide array of depths, but you just need to make sure that you’re hunting that. And that’s kind of the beauty of short leashing is, you know, you can see where the water gets shallow and that’s the stuff you want to fish. So those center river flats, you know, shallow gravel bars, shorelines, you know, that’s the stuff that you’re targeting. Yeah.
Dave (21m 24s):
That is the thing on the, on the Missouri, right, you get the, the summertime you get the vegetation. Are you guys still nipping, like what happens when you get that those weeds and the vegetation is growing? Is it still nipping or are you, are you not doing as much nipping
2 (21m 36s):
Still? Yeah, still nipping. Yeah, still nipping. Yeah. And then it just becomes a little bit, you know, I tell clients, you know, hey, if catching fish is important to you Today, you got it to make sure your flies are clean. You know, ’cause we’ll go through sections of river that have a little more vegetation than than other sections. You know, periodically, you know, you’ll go through a really good run nim thing and you’re like, man, we should have caught a fish out of there. Alright guys, bring them up, let’s check ’em. And you know, we bring our rigs up and, and we’ve got some weeds on our flies. So, you know, you gotta be diligent, especially in August. You gotta be diligent about keeping your flies clean. But you know, there’s things that we can do. We, we target a little bit different water once, once we get into heavy vegetation season, which would be August. You know, we just target that faster choppy water. And that seems to kind of take care of the weeds when flows start changing.
2 (22m 19s):
You know, if, if you know, the people who are regulating flows at the dam, if they release water and they stop releasing water, those changes can definitely dislodge some weeds and cause I don’t wanna say issues, but definitely put some weeds in the water column. Yeah,
Dave (22m 34s):
Right in the water column. So typically if you’re fishing, so the tip there, what is the biggest tip on staying out of the weeds? ’cause it seems like you would be getting snagged up all day on stuff. Like how do you know? Do you just, are you just checking your fly a lot?
2 (22m 45s):
Yeah, a lot of checking your fly. Sometimes in, in certain areas I’ll fish on weighted flies and float those flies over the weed beds, you know, areas where the water’s a little faster and a little deeper. You’re, you’re not getting the vegetation, you know, and then obviously closer to the dam you’re getting less vegetation ’cause water temperature. But as the days get longer and the water gets warmer, you know, you start seeing a lot more weeds further down river. But yeah, it’s just hard fish in Missouri and yeah, just something you learn to deal with and you know, just knowing that those weeds are a whole ecosystem, you know, when you grab ’em outta those weeds and look in there, it’s just, it’s full of worms and sow bugs and, and yeah. Just an important part of the fishery.
Dave (23m 24s):
Right, right. Yeah, that’s the thing about it is that you got these weeds that, which make it harder for fishing, but I mean there’s a reason why there’s so many big fish in the river. Right. It’s probably because of those weeds in the bug life.
2 (23m 34s):
Absolutely. For sure.
Dave (23m 35s):
Talk a little about your area. So you cover, and, and I know that you mentioned land of giants and you have a jet boat. Talk about kinda where you’re fishing and how this jetboat fits into it.
2 (23m 44s):
Sure. Yeah. So we, you know, we offer, you know, standard drip boat trips below Holter dam and then we also offer jet boat trips below Hauser Dam. So below Hauser Dam is a stretch of river, it’s, you know, three to four miles and it’s, it’s called the Land of Giants. A lot of the fish in there are, you know, 18 to 22 inches would be a standard fish. It’s not uncommon to see a two foot fish, a 24 or you know, maybe every other trip. So there’s a lot of big fish in there. And so that stretch of river flows down into Holter reservoir and I think that’s what makes those fish so big because they can move between the lake system and the river system so they can go down to that lake and eat those still water flies like kiid and Caba and not expend any energy.
2 (24m 31s):
And then they can move back up river for to spawn. But yeah, so that system’s pretty special.
Dave (24m 36s):
Yeah. And remind us again, where are you putting in the jet boat? Yeah,
2 (24m 39s):
So we’re putting in at the gates in the mountains marina. And so yeah, we put it at the marina and then we use jet boats to jet up the river. So we go across Holter lake and then we make our way up the river and once we get to the grounds that we wanna fish, we, we drift down. So just like a drift boat, our, our jet boats are set up with oars and we drift down and you know, we’re either drive, fly fishing, knitting or streamer fishing, and then once we go through a productive run, we simply crank the engine and go right back up again. So that’s kind of the beauty of the jet boat is you get to stay in that a plus water all day, where, you know, in the drift boat you go through a really productive run and once you go through that run, it’s over. You went through it and you caught some fish and now you’re onto the next one where in the jet boat we just crank the engine and go right back up.
Dave (25m 22s):
Right. Gotcha. Okay. Talk about the areas again. You got Craig and the typical areas that people are floating with the drift boats.
2 (25m 29s):
So yeah, drift boats, you know, typically people are, you know, Craig’s kind of like the hub. That’s where all your fly shops are. It’s where most of the guides you’re going morning to get their shuttles and their ice and and flies and you know, gear they might need. But, so we got 40 miles a river, you know, so we can fish from Holter dam all the way down to the town of Cascade. Craig is kind of just kind of, I don’t wanna say it’s in the center, but it, it’s, it’s the hub. It’s where most people meet the clients in the morning and you know, if you, if you go to Craig in the end of June or be beginning of July, it’s, it’s a busy place.
Dave (25m 59s):
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Lots of drift boats right on trailers.
2 (26m 2s):
Yeah. Lots of drift boats on trailers.
Dave (26m 4s):
Are people able to fish out there if they were just on their own fish from the bank? Is a drift boat a important thing to have?
2 (26m 12s):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, wade fishing can be, can be really, really good. But it, it all depends on flows. You know, if the river’s running, you know, 50 508,000, I mean those flows are, you know, I don’t wanna say that it’s unweight able, but I wouldn’t wanna be standing out there on those higher flows.
Dave (26m 27s):
Gotcha. So
2 (26m 28s):
Yeah, seasonally, you know, so I think a lot of the wade fisher, a lot of the wade fishermen are kind of praying for low flows and the drift boat fishermen are, you know, praying for higher flows.
Dave (26m 37s):
Yeah. Right. And, and what, and the higher flows. So there’s no, I mean, why are the higher flows better for the drift boat fishermen? Just, it gets more fish spread out or what’s the difference there?
2 (26m 45s):
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, so yeah, the fish spread out, they have more places to go. It opens up our side channels and it’s just better for the fish, you know, it’s better for the fish keeps temperatures down a little bit, you know, higher flows are definitely better. Right, right, right. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah, and you know, in the spring, you know, we’re looking to kind of scour the bottom and move some gravel and, and you know, get a good flush of the river. Where this season, you know, we kind of hung around 4,000 cubic feet a second for most of the season, which is, you know, a little bit below average. We need about 4,000, 4,500 to keep our side channels opened up and not choked out with weeds and, you know, keep ’em fishable.
Dave (27m 21s):
Okay. And as you go up the river, you go into eventually Canyon Ferry, are there other areas to fish upriver from that section you do with your sled?
2 (27m 30s):
Yeah, I think you asked me that before when we, we got off court, but yeah, so just Holter dam you have Hol Reservoir, so that’s, you know, 20, 30 miles of reservoir. Then it turns into upper Holter. That’s where we launch our jet boats is upper Holter. And that will go up another three and a half miles to Hauser Dam. And then above Hauser Dam you have Hauser Reservoir and then Canyon Ferry and Tossed. And so there’s a series of dams leading all the way up to the headwaters and three forks. Most of our fishing takes place below Hauser Dam. So yeah, below Hauser Dam is pretty much where we start. Now there’s some folks that, you know, walleye fish and, and you know, spin Fish Canyon Ferry and Hauser, and there’s some folks that fly fishing as well. But as far as guiding and outfitting, our main focus is below Hauser.
Dave (28m 14s):
Yeah, gotcha. Okay. And then talk a little bit about, you know, throughout the year, so, you know, again, somebody’s sitting here, we talked a little bit about the winter time, you know, January, February, when do things start turning around, typically on a year, on your average year and, and start getting into that, you know, prime time.
2 (28m 29s):
Yeah, so prime time, yeah. June, July. June July is our, our busiest months. And that’s kind of just the peak of bug activity and just the perfect water temperature. Fishing is exceptional. You know, we see Cas and Pale Morning Duns, and then once we get into the August, september, we’ve got the Trico and the pseudo Chos. And then into fall, that’s when we start seeing, you know, bluing olives. You know, once that water hits the low fifties, we’ll start seeing Bluing olives in, you know, October, late October we’ll start showing up.
Dave (29m 2s):
Okay. And, and then through late October and then, and then you said the mins are just kind of, once you start to hit the winter, that kind of more that sets in, that’s when you’re gonna start to see more midges?
2 (29m 11s):
Yeah, all, all year long. Yeah. Yeah, all year long. And then on Holter reservoirs where we see the bigger ones, the CIDs, you know, and they’re size 12 to 14, where, you know, the midges we see below Holter are much smaller.
Dave (29m 24s):
Oh, right, right, right. So that is, so yeah, the CIDs are, maybe talk about that a little bit, you, because you do have this tail water and you have the reservoir. So CID is a Midge and, but it’s just a larger Midge that you find more in the Stillwater.
2 (29m 36s):
Yep. Just a larger Midge. Yeah. So they, they build a little tube on the bottom of the lake and then they, you know, they, they come out of that tube as like a Mitch larvae kinda red. And then as they go through the water column, they change color and, and the trout just love ’em. So we do, we do a fair amount of lake fishing when we’re fishing the land of giants, because like I said, those fish will move from Holter lake up into the land giant section, and they’ll go back and forth. So there’s times where there’s more fish on the lake, and there’s times where a lot of the lake fish will move up into the river. So we’re always incorporating both of those systems in our trips. So at some point in an eight hour trip, we’ll, we’ll more than likely fish the lake at some point, you know, either on our way up into the river or on our way out. And most of the time you’re, you’re truly trophy, disgustingly large trout are caught off a lake.
2 (30m 22s):
A good friend of mine caught, his client caught a 31 inch, 15 pound brown trout off a lake This year. Oh, wow. I’ll say that again. 31 inch, 15 pound,
Dave (30m 32s):
That’s a
2 (30m 32s):
Knockout. I mean, that is just an absolute to, and then, you know, for me personally, every, every trout that I’ve caught that’s been over two foot has been in the lower reaches of the, of the river and in the lake, you know, so most of your really, really bit trout come off the lake.
Dave (30m 49s):
Okay.
2 (30m 49s):
And that fishing can just be exceptional. Yeah. So the hatches on the, in the Stillwater section of Holter is mainly the Caba, which is just kind of like a creamy white may fly and the curid, right.
Dave (31m 4s):
That’s it. And are you doing on the lake, are you changing your tactics a little bit and doing things under a indicator? How does that look on the lake?
2 (31m 12s):
Yeah, so a lot of times we’ll fish under an indicator and we’ll fish a small leach top, you know, a small balanced leach, and then drop off a Cali beta nymph or a curid before curid fishing, typically we’re, we’re putting that fly pretty darn close to the bottom. So depth finder and, or you know, a set of forceps clip to your fly and drop it down to the bottom to get an actual depth of where the boat is sitting, and then set your indicator so that fly is six inches a foot off the bottom. And that can be the difference between, you know, catching ’em and not catching ’em.
Dave (31m 44s):
And how do you go about, same on this, you know, finding the fish, the lakes, that’s always the challenge, right? You got these bigger reservoirs, lakes, how do you find those?
2 (31m 51s):
Yeah, so we’re looking for drops. So on my jet boat, I have a small sonar, and that just gives me an idea of the depth. So typically those fish, they’re always moving, you know, unlike in the river where a trout might just be holding behind a rock all day when the trout on the lake are feeding, they’re constantly swimming, you know? So I think like most creatures, you know, they’re, they’re reachers of edge. So you find those little drops, those little ledges, and that’s where they’ll be, you know, if we’re having a hard time finding them, a lot of times drifting, you know, we do get a little bit of flow outta the river into the lake, so we’ll drift. And you know, if we catch a fish, you know, we mark the spot and then we will, we’ll do that drift again and then, you know, maybe even anchor.
Dave (32m 31s):
Yeah, that sounds awesome. I mean, I love the fact that you’ve got the mixing the two, right? You got what you think of as the river, you know, the drift boat’s down there, but you’re talking more a little bit of that as you go up higher, but it’s also, you know, the more you go down into hol, and this is into like the Holter lake, right?
2 (32m 46s):
Yep. Into Holter Lake. Yeah. And there’s, I mean, there’s tons of species, you know, we catch, you know, you get some really neat bycatch. I mean, you could catch a Coke and eat salmon, you could catch a walleye, you could catch a perch, you know? Wow. So in the spring, surprisingly catch quite a few walleye as we’re stripping streamers.
Dave (33m 3s):
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2 (34m 15s):
Yeah, so it really depends on the client and the experience that they’re looking for. You know, if someone’s really serious, like, hey, I want to try to catch a really big fish, I would encourage ’em to do a jetboat trip. Those fish are, are big. Like I said, the average fish is 18 to 22 inches with, you know, 24 inch fish seen pretty regularly. Our biggest fish this season was a 27 inch brown, you know, caught on a, a black balance leach. So, you know, that’s kind of unheard of for the lower river. You know, you don’t see a lot of two foot fish. I mean, I’m sure they’re there, but you know, you, the frequency at which you see really large fish in the land of giant section is, is much more.
Dave (34m 56s):
Wow. Yeah, this is exciting. What is the, the boat, it looks like you have kind of like, is it like a 18 foot sled or what, what’s the boat you got there?
2 (35m 3s):
Yeah, so what I’m running, I mean a series of different jet boats trying to kind of find the perfect boat. But you know, what I’m in now is an 1860 crest liner with a 90 60 tiller. So that just gives us a good wide open platform for plenty of room. And then, you know, outside of guiding it, it kind of doubles as a hunting boat. But yeah, it, it rows good enough, it’s stable, it’s safe for crossing the lake when the lake, you know, gets rough, you know, and you’re trying to get home in the middle of a thunderstorm or something like that. So it’s a nice stable platform for the anglers, you know, and it roses well enough to get the job done.
Dave (35m 41s):
Yeah. Is it pretty much a flat bottom or does it have a little v on the bottom?
2 (35m 45s):
Yeah, pretty much flat bottom, so no dead rise in the stern. And then once you get up into the bow, it’s probably like two or three degrees up front, you know. So like the more dead rise you have, the obvious obviously the, the smoother the ride’s gonna be. But then as you increase dead rise in a boat, you have the tip factor, it’s real tippy.
Dave (36m 2s):
Oh it is.
2 (36m 2s):
Yep. So our boat is about three degree dead rise up front to answer your question. And it’s super stable.
Dave (36m 7s):
Yeah, super stable. Okay. And you can go in pretty shallow water. Did you? But it has a tiller, right? So it’s not a pump, it’s not a jet pump,
2 (36m 13s):
It’s jet pump, yeah. So you just take lower unit off and put a jet pump on? Yeah. So we can run, you know, four to six inches of water on plane.
Dave (36m 21s):
Oh, right. Okay. Nice. Yeah, it seems like this would be a fun part to definitely mix it up and you’re getting some action at some of these really large fish. Do you find people are a lot of boats, are there a lot of slight, I mean obviously you got all the drift boats down, but do you find fly anglers doing kind of what you’re doing with the sled?
2 (36m 37s):
Yeah, so the kind of the beauty of the laying the giant section is it’s, it’s, it’s permitted. So, you know, a few years ago the marina decided to cap the number of guides and captains that can use that ramp for commercial use. So they’ve got a capped at 50 guides, so you don’t see that heavy crowding like you might see in other western rivers peak season. So it helps kind of keep the crowds down and, and yeah, so there’s only 50 of us that are permitted to guide up there.
Dave (37m 5s):
Wow. 50 and there’s a ton, like how many miles is it when you, that you have to cover in that lake reservoir river up above?
2 (37m 12s):
Yeah, so what I can I guess land a giant section is about three to four miles, but the, the system from dam to dam is probably, I’ve never really mapped it out, but I would say it’s probably 20 to three miles from Hauser Dam to Holter dam. So there’s a lot of water to cover.
Dave (37m 28s):
Yeah, okay. That’s the beauty i i of the, the boat, the jet boat is that you can cover a bunch of ground, you can get away from people and kind of have your own spot and feel like you’re out there as you’re, it’s cool because you, you got the motor, you get to your spot and then you just cut it and you’re drifting down and you’re just as quiet as you’d be if you’re in a drift boat. Right,
2 (37m 44s):
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And you know, a lot of folks, you know, that been fishing western rivers, they’re like, man, I don’t, you know, you offer it to ’em and they’re like, I’m not sure what that is. Like, what do you mean there’s a jet? Like they don’t understand it. But then once they experience it, they’re like, this is really cool. You know, we’re running 35 miles an hour across the lake and then we run up into this steep canyon and then we shut the motor off, it’s quiet and we’re fishing. You know, so it’s a really, really unique experience, you know, especially for folks, you know, if a guy wants to bring his wife, we can, you know, we can do a JPO tour, we can take him through, you know, beautiful canyon and the gates of the mountains area and break the day up, you know, not into just fishing, but you know, a little bit of sightseeing, decent wildlife.
2 (38m 24s):
So yeah, it’s really cool. It’s something I think everybody should experience after they fish in Missouri for at least one day.
Dave (38m 30s):
Sure. And when you get up there, just back to the fishing a little bit, so if you, once you cut that boat and you’re, you’re the motor and you’re drifting down, are you, I guess it depends if you’re in the reservoir or more in the river, but talk about that. How are you using those balanced leches? Are you just kind of toss ’em out the side or are you guys, you know, how are you finding fish there?
2 (38m 45s):
Yeah, mainly we’re fish and balance leches on in the lake section where it’s, you know, calm water. So yeah, we’re, we’re hanging those under an indicator and just twitching, if we have some chop that chop is swimming the leach for us. We don’t need to do anything. And then really that is just kind of figuring out the depth at which the fish are, are swimming at. So if I have two anglers, you know, I might set a leach at three foot on one, one rod, and then I might set a leach at, you know, five or six foot on the other rod and, and just try to get it dialed in. And then we, we figure out the depth we go from there, you know, and a lot of the guides at the landed giants, you know, we all communicate, you know, if you see your buddy, you know, 300 yards down the way and, and he’s got two bent rods, I’ve got no shame.
2 (39m 26s):
I’ll pick up the phone and say, Hey, you know, what do you using, what’s your depth? You know, and it’s usually, we’re all fishing pretty close, but sometimes just those little minute details of, of adjusting your depth six inches or a foot can make all the difference.
Dave (39m 38s):
Right, right. And, and that’s the cool thing about the, the guiding, right? That’s what you’re, you know, you could definitely do this on your own, like always right. And kind of learn and, and figure it out. But that’s what you guys as guides are doing. You’re talking, you kinda, you’re getting things dialed in, right? So you know the best place you’re getting through your clients. Yeah,
2 (39m 53s):
We, we, yeah, we help each other. Yeah, we all, we all help each other, you know, that’s the big thing is we, we, we want people to come out here and have a great time and we want ’em to come back so we all help each other and, you know, pass information and you know, hey, what were you getting ’em on yesterday? Or what wouldd you get ’em on today? And, and, yeah. Yeah, it’s a good community up there.
Dave (40m 9s):
Nice. Well, let’s start to take it out here with our kind of our quick tips segment here and, and I wanna stick on the steel water. So, you know, back to that. So we’re fishing, you know, this area. What are a couple of tips you’re telling, you know, that client on your boat for the day, you know, to give them better, more success?
2 (40m 25s):
So we’re speaking to fishing Holter Lake, landed giants, or just as a whole?
Dave (40m 31s):
Yeah, yeah, just the land of giants like you’re fishing up there.
2 (40m 33s):
So yeah, I mean, just as a whole, in, in any fishery, you know, if you’re fishing an indicator, leave it in the water. You know, we all fly fishing and we like to cast and casting’s part of fly fishing, but when we’re fishing an indicator, leave it in the water. You know, you see a lot of folks that they want to cast or they want to hit a target of or an objective, and it’s like, just let it hunt. Leave your flies in the water and let ’em hunt. So that’s one tip. Another tip is if you’re, you know, coming out here with your own boat is, you know, just know the depth. You know, if you’re, if you’re running your, your nymphs, you know, six foot from the bottom and you’re in 10 foot of water, you’re probably not gonna catch any fish. So, you know, you’re talking about Ming, we want our bugs on the bottom, you know, of course, unless you’re fishing in spots where trout might suspend.
2 (41m 14s):
But you know, as a rule, you know, make sure that your indicator and your flies, everything is set for the depth that you’re looking for. Yeah,
Dave (41m 20s):
That’s perfect. Okay, so
2 (41m 21s):
Those are probably the two big things when it comes to nipping.
Dave (41m 24s):
Yeah, nipping. Okay. And, and then that’s pretty much what you’re doing when you’re fishing the, the reservoir above Holter there, I mean, you’re not finding a lot of dry fly, or are you getting some dry fly action?
2 (41m 33s):
Yeah, the dry, yeah, the dry fly fishing can be epic. Some of the best dry fly fishing that I’ve had have been on our lakes and reservoirs. The Cali beta hatches can be intense. I mean, just blankets of Cali Beta and then those trout are just swimming around in pods, just gorging themselves. So a lot of times they’re not super picky, you know, you can throw a grasshopper at, at the fish and they’ll eat it, you know, catch a lot of fish on ants. So yeah, the dry fly fishing on the lakes can be exceptional.
Dave (41m 59s):
Okay. Then taking it back to the winter where we kind of started there, what are your couple of good tips for winter time? Somebody’s out there in, you know, January, what are you telling them to get ’em, you know, give ’em more success?
2 (42m 8s):
Yeah, just fish slow, you know, make sure you’re in the right water and fish slow. So if you’re a guy who likes to, you know, strip flies, you know, woolly buggers and stuff, just look for that deep, slow water and strip real slow. And then if you’re, you know, in the Nin thing game, just dump the right water, put something on that’s pink, and if you’re not catching fish, make an adjustment. If you feel like you’re in the right water and you’re not catching them, you gotta do something. So add weight, add depth, keep playing around until you get figured out. ’cause the fish are there, you know, the Missouri, like, there’s days where you know, you have a tough morning and you’re like, man, we’ve probably run over 50,000 fish. How did we not catch one? You, so you gotta make an adjustment.
2 (42m 50s):
There’s days where you’re doing everything right and the fish just aren’t cooperative. But for the most part, you know, if you’re, you’ve gone through some good, what you know to be good water, what looks like good trout water, you’re not catching ’em. You gotta make a change and you gotta go deeper. You gotta change bugs, you gotta add weight, you gotta do something. Don’t get stuck in that rut. Yeah.
Dave (43m 6s):
You’re doing the same thing over and over again. So if you’re out there and you’re fishing for, you know, whatever it is sometimes.
2 (43m 11s):
Yeah. Where I think, you know, as anglers, we’re all guilty of it. Like, man, I, you know, we whacked him yesterday on an 18 zebra midge, and you’re just married to that thing the next day, and it’s like, they’re not eating it. You gotta make a change, you know? So just to work yesterday, just ’cause it worked this morning doesn’t mean it’s gonna work all day and, and you need to make an adjustment.
Dave (43m 29s):
Yeah. Perfect. And what about, we talked flies a little bit, but just remind us again on that. So let, let’s stick it with the winter time. What are your, say top, you know, four or five flies that you know, and it’s gotta have pink in it, but what are the names of some of those?
2 (43m 40s):
So yeah, I would say a pill popper for sure, which is just a cell bug with a hot bead on it, a pink bead, you know, for nipping any, anything in the cell bug variety pink lightning bug. I really like the radiation beta. You know, it’s kind of got a pink back on it with a pink bead. You know, the thin mint is kind of a staple. So if you’re more of a, a guy who needs to, to strip leeches or wooly buggers, like a, a thin mint is a staple on the Missouri River. I wouldn’t wanna, you know, come to the mo without a thin mint. Yeah. And in this time of year, you know, parachute atoms or a griffis nat would get it done i, I believe on most days. Gotcha.
Dave (44m 18s):
That’s right. So you don’t have to be the exact, you know, that’s the thing, right? The exact imitation, your more suggestive patterns.
2 (44m 24s):
Yeah. Drift is king here, you know, and you know, like for me, like I’m, I rarely will throw it like we talked about Trico earlier, you know, real small may fly, real techie may fly. I rarely will throw a trico at trico eaters, you know, just as long as you have the drift and timing for the most part, they’ll eat it. And, and in my, you know, my limited experience, I think a fish will move for a cas and I think a fish will move for an ant as long as it’s in their lane and as long as it’s on their cadence, you know, sometimes those fish will have a rhythm, so he’s coming up every three seconds. If the fly goes over him as he goes down, he’s obviously not gonna take it. So that timing and that lane that the fish is in is, is critical.
Dave (45m 7s):
Yeah. So what you’re saying is it’s not critical. That’s always the thing, like you said, these blanket spinner falls on the water. How does the fish see your fly? But that’s part of, it’s like you’re not trying to match the hatch necessarily. Exactly. You’re, you’re, how are you doing that? How are you picking yours out of the thousands of bugs?
2 (45m 22s):
Yeah, well, we’re picking, yeah, we’re, so we’re trying to pick a fish, you know, we’re not, when we have a pot of fish up, you know, we’re not, the worst thing you can do is just block shoot, just, just throw it out there and run it through the pot of fish. Like, try to pick a fish, be patient, watch ’em, figure out its cadence. And like I said, if it’s in their lane, and you know, so if we’re talking where there’s bugs every three inches on the water, that’s the precision that we’re looking for is that that thing is a hundred percent gonna hit him in the nose. So yeah. Big tip is practice, practice, practice, practice, practice your reach cast, yeah. Practice. That’s so important. You know, you see a lot of times guys get buck fever and they’re great casters and the wheels fall off.
2 (46m 3s):
You know, I saw it a lot when I was guiding in saltwater where, you know, you have really great casters and good anglers and you know, you’re pulling the boat and you get ’em into position to make a cast. It’s 25 feet a chip shot and they just, they fall apart. They’re standing on the line. It, it just, you know, the wheels fall off. So same thing, you know, drive fly fishing on the mow. So when guide anchors the boat, like make sure that’s, you’re red, Hey, my fly is dressed, I’ve got enough line off the re onto the deck of the boat. I’m not standing, it’s not hung in my bag or wrapped in my flip flop. Like, take a minute and make sure everything is right. And then the fish aren’t going anywhere. You know, there’s no rush. So take five minutes and enjoy it and watch the fish, pick the fish out that you want to try to catch and make the cast.
2 (46m 46s):
I think one of the big mistakes in dry fly fishing is people land the fly too far from the fish. So like we could agree that I can manage a drift that’s 12 inches long, but when I’m trying to manage a drift that’s 12 feet long, all kinds of things come into play there. So cast right at the fish, you know, that’s the one we’re trying to catch, right? So if we throw the fly six inches above, 12 inches above, that’s really all we need. Where you see a lot of folks will throw 4, 5, 6 feet above the fish and then they’re trying to manage this teeny little techy fly all the way down into the fish and it just, it doesn’t work out.
Dave (47m 18s):
Oh yeah. Right, right. So you see a fish rising, you got this fish that you’re on and you want to cast that fly, you know, you’re above it. You wanna cast it within 12 inches or six inches to that fish and then, and then you just let it drift.
2 (47m 29s):
Yeah, I do. I do for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s a, you know, just, you know, as a guide you observe a lot, you know, you’re able to see, you know, you watch hundreds of people cast watch, you see it all happen. And I just feel like when folks land the fly pretty close to the fish, they get a bite, you know, and you throw it far from the fish, you can still a bike. But like I said, when you have weeds in the column and you have kind of junk in the water, it’s hard to manage that drift. Especially if you know the guy men or twitches a little bit as he is stack mending that fly now sinks.
Dave (48m 1s):
Right, right. That’s the challenge. And dry fi, so it sounds like, like, oh yeah, real close. The Missouri dry fi fishing is, is not super easy. Like that’s the challenge. It’s the, that’s what you’re saying is it’s not easy, but the nipping Yeah, it can be. Can
2 (48m 12s):
Be. Yes. Yeah. And the dry fly fishing can be, I mean, there’s days where those trout will eat it as you’re stripping the fly back to the boat, you know, and that’s early season when the PMDs are going and it’s just the fish, they don’t, they’re not educated yet, they’re hungry. The water temperature’s perfect. But as we go through the season, you know, every boat that stops on those pods of fish, those fish are getting an education. You know, that’s why I tell people like, make the first cast count, you know, you’re gonna get one shot and there’s times where you might get 20 shots but’s a rule, like just the first one count and let’s hook that fish and get into the net and move down to the next pot and get another one.
Dave (48m 47s):
That’s perfect.
2 (48m 48s):
So, but yeah, as the season goes on, the fish, the fish definitely wisen up.
Dave (48m 53s):
Yeah. They get smart. Okay. And you mentioned the salt water. Where were you guiding before you, you came to Montana?
2 (48m 59s):
Yeah, so I, I guided in South Carolina. I lived in a little town called Paul’s Island, and I guided from Paul’s island to the Charleston Harbor.
Dave (49m 8s):
And what were the, what was the species focus there?
2 (49m 12s):
Red fish, tarpon, speckled sea trout flounder.
Dave (49m 15s):
Yep. Flounder, right? Yeah.
2 (49m 17s):
With a fly rod mostly it was, yep. Red fish and tarpon were, were the, were the game.
Dave (49m 23s):
Right. And are these big giant tarpon or more the baby tarpon?
2 (49m 26s):
Big giant tarpon. Yeah. Yeah. 80 pounds, 120 pounds big fish.
Dave (49m 30s):
Wow. How’d you make the move? What, what, what got, what got you to Montana across the country?
2 (49m 34s):
Yeah, so I was a career firefighter, so I did 20 years in the fire department and ran a guy in outfitting business on my off days. And my wife and I and I, we started talking about, you know, what do we want to do when I leave the fire service? Do I wanna stay in South Carolina and guide? We talked about the at length. And then we started coming back and forth to Montana. I got a Montana guide license and left a jet boat here and started bringing some clients here. And once I did that, it just, it seemed like every time I got on an airplane to go back to South Carolina, I just, I missed Montana. Mm. Yeah, it just captivated me. Like what, once I fished the Missouri River, I was pretty ruined. So, yeah.
2 (50m 14s):
You know, my wife and I started talking about it and we bought a house and, and I sold everything in South Carolina. I was able to pass my book of salt water clients to a good friend of mine. Yeah. Sold everything, moved to Montana and yeah. Started guiding a bunch and got an outfitting license and here we are.
Dave (50m 33s):
Yeah. Wow. That’s what, what’s the, between the two, South Carolina, you know, kind of Helena in that area, what’s the biggest, obviously they’re to a lot different, but what is it about, you know, Montana versus South Carolina? The biggest difference?
2 (50m 47s):
Yeah, so just the sheer lack of people, you know. So I live just outside of Helena, it’s a capital city, but in five minutes I can be in remote wilderness and not see anybody. Yeah. Where in South Carolina, that was the case of my early guiding years, you know, so I could get in my skiff and run 20, 30 miles and not see a boat and fish all day. And you know, like any fishery across the world, I think you could talk to any guide or outfitter across America and they say, man, it’s getting busy. There’s a lot of, a lot of people guiding, a lot of people outfit. It’s changing. Where I could kind of, I don’t wanna say that I saw the writing on the wall, but the things that I loved about South Carolina were starting to change a lot of people, a lot of guides, lot of boats on the water. At that time, the fishery was kind of declining.
2 (51m 28s):
And I came to Montana and was like, man, there’s nobody here. You know, I, the first time I fished in Missouri was like late September and we pulled and we were the only boat and there was just outright everywhere. And I was like, this is incredible. You know, the next day we got my buddy’s dogs and we went out upland bird hunting and I was like, what do, like we’re missing it. We need to get here. So yeah, just the Montana, the lifestyle, just the sheer lack of people and the change of seasons and the mountains and the trout and the wildlife. It’s just, it’s a magical place.
Dave (52m 1s):
Yeah. Yeah. It is. And it’s still, even though it’s growing, you know, and you know, you’ve got some places like Bozeman and other places that are definitely growing. I mean, there’s still not many people in Montana. Right. And it’s a giant state. We were just talking, I was interviewing a guy up in Ontario here this week earlier, and he, you know, looking at the province of, you know, Ontario is I think three times as big as Montana tells you a lot about Canada, but Montana’s a huge state. Right. It takes you probably a day to drive it and so, and there’s a million people still. Right. Something like that in the state.
2 (52m 30s):
Oh, for sure. Yeah. I think we maybe just hit a million people population last year, maybe the year before. So, you know, that’s not a lot of people.
Dave (52m 39s):
No.
2 (52m 40s):
Not when you look at the size of the state.
Dave (52m 41s):
Yeah. Size of the state. Exactly. Cool. Well, let’s talk a little, a little kind of people coming in just quickly before we get outta here focusing on Helena. So if they were gonna be fishing with you, where would you be sending people in Helena to go maybe find some lodging food, talk about that a little bit.
2 (52m 57s):
Sure. Yeah. So again, you know, it’s their trip. It’s not my trip. So, you know, I like to try to talk to folks and see what type of experience they’re looking for. You know, some people want that. We wanna be in Montana, we don’t wanna see anybody. So then, you know, I encourage ’em to go the Airbnb route. There’s a, a bunch of really great Airbnbs that are kind of out and out in the middle of nowhere. And then there’s some folks that come in and they still want to have some amenities. They want to be able to go to the breweries and, you know, grab a good bite to eat after finishing, you know, so those folks I recommend just yeah, go to downtown and, you know, get a little Airbnb in town or in one of the hotels in town and yeah, walking distance to a couple breweries and a couple get to eateries and a lot of times we can arrange where the, I just pick you right up in the morning.
2 (53m 41s):
You don’t have to worry about anything and take you to Craig or take you to the Land of Giants section. Mm.
Dave (53m 46s):
Right. And which one’s closer between going to Craig or Land of Giants from Helena? About the same.
2 (53m 51s):
Yeah. From downtown Helena, you’re probably 25 minutes to the gates of the mountains, marina, artificial land of the Giants. And then from downtown Helena to Craig, you’re probably 40 minutes, 45 minutes.
Dave (54m 3s):
Okay. And do you go into Helena a little bit? What would be some of your advice, like things to, something to do in Helena? What are, what are people doing if they’re in, in the town? You mentioned, I guess brew pubs and stuff like that for sure. Anything else going on? Yeah,
2 (54m 14s):
Going to breweries, going out to dinner. There’s a lot of great places to eat. Yeah. A little art galleries, you know, your, your standard downtown stuff. Do a little shopping. Yeah.
Dave (54m 22s):
But
2 (54m 23s):
For the most part, you know, folks that are, you know, they’re here, they’re here to fish, you know, most of my clients, like, they’re here to fish. Yeah. They’re like, man, we want to hit it from dark to dark, go to bed, wake up and do it again. You know. So again, it just really depends on the client and the experience that they’re looking for is, is where we recommend that they fish and where we recommend that they stay. Yeah.
Dave (54m 40s):
Gotcha. And are you living, or do you live around or more, what part of that area are you at?
2 (54m 45s):
I live just outside of town in Montana City. You know, I can be town 15 minutes.
Dave (54m 51s):
Yeah. So that’s where you guys go do all your shopping. You gotta head into Helena to get grocery stuff like that. Yep.
2 (54m 56s):
Head into town and do the grocery shopping and, and all that stuff. So yeah, where I live it kind of feels like we’re away, but in five minutes we can, you know, we can be in the thick of it Right. Downtown, the capitol.
Dave (55m 7s):
Oh, perfect. Okay, cool. Well, let’s hear some podcast music. The question I like to ask when we have time, are you, you know, on your road trip or when you’re heading out for fishing, are you listening to music or podcasts? You know, when you’re on the road,
2 (55m 20s):
Man, I listen. When I’m driving, I listen to your podcast. Oh,
Dave (55m 23s):
Really? That’s good to hear.
2 (55m 26s):
No, I’m a, I’m a big music guy. Yeah. I, and it varies, you know, I like all kinds of music, anything but death metal. Other than that I could be listening to nineties hip hop and
Dave (55m 39s):
Then, so, so everything, so country, everything. Yeah.
2 (55m 41s):
Like I said, I could go from nineties hip hop to Hank Williams, Jr. In the same, you know, 20 minutes. So I love all kinds of music and appreciate all kinds of music.
Dave (55m 49s):
What’s, give us something to take it outta here today. What, what would be nineties hip hop, what would be a band person, group, whatever. I’m trying to think back to nineties.
2 (55m 57s):
Oh, I would say Wu-Tang Wutang buddy.
Dave (55m 59s):
Yeah, Wu-Tang. Nice. Okay. Yeah.
2 (56m 1s):
Wu-Tang Or, or or Biggie Smalls.
Dave (56m 5s):
Okay. Biggie Smalls. Cool. All right. We’ll put some of that in the show notes. Wu-Tang or Biggie Smalls. And then maybe we’ll get some of that out on a, on a reel as well. So cool. All right, well this has been good, Jeff. I think we will leave it there for today. I, I, I really love the conversation we had, especially as we got into some of that with the Jetboat and kinda what you have going, you’re in this amazing place, so hopefully we will, we will be out there. Maybe we’ll see you down the line. But yeah, appreciate all your knowledge and kind of sharing everything today. We’ll talk to you soon. Yeah, for sure. Thanks
0 (56m 32s):
Dave.
Dave (56m 34s):
Alright. If you get this and you’re listening all the way to the very end, please check in with Jeff. Let him know you heard this podcast. You can check in with him living water guide.com and anytime and find out more there. We’re gonna be following up with Jeff’s past operation in South Carolina, so stay tuned for that as well. We’re gonna be talking redfish there, but this was a great episode. Please check in with Jeff if you get time and if you haven’t already, please follow the show. Click that plus button on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to, to podcasts right now. And you’re gonna get that next episode delivered to your inbox. A big reminder as we’re going here, the Steelhead School is out there. If you’re interested in heading to the Skeena River This year, it’s a big one.
Dave (57m 14s):
Not only do we have Jeff Lige on on hosting this, but we also have John McMillan is gonna be there at the lodge. So the Ski Bay Lodge, Brian Ska, of course, this is gonna be a big one This year. We’re bringing together to the East coast and the West coast into one big steelhead trip, limited spots. So check in with me, Dave, at we fi swing.com if you’re interested anytime or on any other trips, and we’ll talk to you then. All right, time to get outta here. I’m not sure where you are right now. Maybe you’re hiking in the woods and you’re just listening to this. Maybe you’re hiking into a stream, maybe you’re in the Missouri area. Not sure where you are. But if you are on a walk, I just wanna say, I hope you enjoy your walk. Check out the next episode and we have it coming here.
Dave (57m 54s):
But I hope you have a great morning. Hope you have a wonderful afternoon and a spectacular evening, and we’ll talk to you soon.
Be sure to check out the Living Water Guide for more information. Don’t forget to follow the show if you haven’t already done so—plenty more great content is coming! Thanks for listening!
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