785B | King Salmon Spey Fishing in Alaska with Jordan Larsen – Togiak River Lodge

Dave (2s): He didn’t grow up with a fly rod in his hand. In fact, for a long time he wanted nothing to do with fly fishing. But that changed after a summer spent filming anglers on a remote river in Alaska, watching cast after cast and eventually seeing the light. In this episode, you’re going to hear how the first season on the water sparked a quiet shift leading to a new approach to fishing, a deeper respect for the resource, and a total career pivot. Today we talk about the challenge of running a lodge through uncertainty, what it takes to build a spay program from scratch, and how learning to cast with two hands open the door to something much bigger. This is the Web life swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, And what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Dave (46s): Jordan Larson, Togiak River Lodge owner and first generation spay angler. It takes us on the inside of what it’s really like to build a fishing program from the ground up. We’re gonna dig deep into one of the most remote corners of the world up in Alaska. You’re gonna hear about this summer job as a videographer turned into a full blown obsession, what it took to learn two-handed from scratch. We’re gonna talk about that again. This all started on the dock on the back of the lodge. And then how chasing kings and the swing might just reset what you know about fly fishing today. All right, we’re breaking down all the challenges of what it’s like. Dave (1m 26s): Let’s hear it. Here he is, Jordan Larson from togi x bay.com. How you doing Jordan? 2 (1m 34s): Doing good, Dave, how about yourself? Dave (1m 36s): Really good. Really good. I’m, I’m super excited for this one, because we’re not far away from traveling up to your lodge. It’ll be my first time there and you know, we’ve got some people coming. We’re gonna, we’re actually doing a tying session here in a couple weeks to plan with Jonathan Farmer. And so we’re gonna be doing that, which is amazing. But today we’re gonna circle back around. You’ve been on the podcast before. It’s been a little while. We’re gonna hear your journey kind of on fly fishing, but really focused on spay because I think that’s an interesting part that a lot of people, you know, hear about, maybe struggle with. And, and I’m excited to hear yours because you are in such this an amazing place. So, but take us back real quick. First of all, let’s start real quick with what’s going on right now, and then we’ll get into your background. Dave (2m 17s): So are you guys, are you guys like getting ready, like full tilt right now? Where’s that at with the lodge? 2 (2m 22s): Yeah, so we leave in a little over a week. It’ll be a week Monday. And yeah, This is just, This is a real anxiety ridden part of the year for us. It’s a little bit more so for me this year, just ’cause my wife and I have a eight month old and it’s my first time leaving and it’s never easy leaving once we get there. Like literally the moment my toe touches the dirt and togiak, I’ll take a deep breath and feel good about it. But the travel day is pretty rough, so yeah, it’s, it’s full tilt. We’re, we’re going as hard as we can and that’ll only increase once we get up there, there. So I’m excited. Like, I tell people this all the time and you know, I don’t know If you saw the posts or not, but we just, we’ve been trying to hire a last minute laborer. 2 (3m 9s): Maybe we should hire one through the podcast next year, but, right. Dave (3m 12s): Yeah, yeah, for sure. 2 (3m 13s): Once we get there, like, it’s so peaceful, like there’s no bugs this time of the year and there’s no one on the river and it’s just, God. Startup is really a magical time. Yeah, it is. I’m excited. I am. Dave (3m 25s): Right, right. Wow, that’s amazing. It seems like in your story, we’ll get into it here because I think it is, it’s an amazing story. You know, the fact where you and your brother are now, you know, basically run this own this lodge, run this lodge. It’s this really cool story and, and, but yeah, I love that. The peaceful thing, you know, I mean, we were just talking to a lodge down in, it was a Baku lodge down in the jungle, like Columbia. Right. And, you know, and it’s a little bit different, right. But it’s similar. ’cause they were saying like, some nights it’ll be just totally quiet and you won’t hear a thing. And then, then some nights it’ll be, you know, there’ll be monkeys and stuff going crazy. Oh, interesting. Right. Wow. But I mean, you guys kinda have the same thing, right? It could be totally quiet, but the next moment you might have some high water, might be some other stuff going on there. Dave (4m 10s): I mean, what are the, what are the sounds, let’s just take that real quick. If you’re at the lodge, what are some of the sounds you’re hearing at the lodge 2 (4m 17s): Early in the season? It’s pretty much like, there’s a, there’s a few birds that are making most of the noise. I don’t know what kind of birds they’re, but it’s like, it’s, it is classic like late spring on the river. But as far as like noises that might be waking us up at night, there’s really few, the few that I have been woken up by are bears fighting with each other. And that’s happened a few times. Oh wow. I mean, I’m talking right outside of my window and the only sound I could compare it to when they’re fighting like that is like a cliche zombie noise. Wow. I mean, like, it’s, it’ll definitely rattle you. Like that’s not a fun thing to wake up to. Holy cow, it happened three or four times, but for the most part, dude, it’s, it’s incredibly peaceful. 2 (5m 1s): I mean, that’s why we’re there. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s pretty, I mean, I’m very in tune with what’s going on, so I’ll wake up and I will know if there’s a generator not running or there’s a power issue, and that often will wake me up. But as far as the guests go, they have nothing to listen to. It’s as peaceful as it could be until the mosquitoes show up. So, yeah. Dave (5m 21s): Yeah. Gotcha. Okay, cool. So yeah, so This is, and we’ll be talking more about this, like I said, the webinar will be talking about it. We’ll be kinda getting ready as we go up, you know, get ready to head up there. But let’s, let’s take a roll back to your, you know, just fly fishing. Like, tell us again, remind us again, how did you get into this? Because I’m, I’m guessing you didn’t foresee yourself owning a lodge and where you are now back in the day. 2 (5m 41s): No, I mean, it’s, I, I still have to pinch myself and we tried to remember where we came from, and I don’t take any of what we have for granted, even though at times now, I mean, This is my 10th year in Alaska. There are times where I’m, I’m getting a little burnt out, I won’t lie. But it’s like things like the space, our space season and learning how to spay fish that have kind of lighted my passion to be in Alaska just because it’s new and it’s new guests and it’s, I, I just, it’s like my heart has changed and it that has helped me. You know what I mean? But as far as, as far as me getting into fly fishing, you know, we did not come from a fly oriented family. 2 (6m 23s): I mean, it was primarily spin gear, you know, bait fishing for salmon. We live right on the quale, so like we fished a ton. But, you know, my brother and my dad way more into the salmon, steelhead side of things than myself. Like, I just, I always tended to orient myself towards the hunting. Like, it’s not that I don’t like to fish, it’s just that I wasn’t as gung-ho about it. But like, I’ll be honest, like we would make fun of, you know, fly anglers. Sure. When I was a kid all time. In fact, I wouldn’t even go into the, I would not go into the fly shop at Cabbel because we would, I don’t know, I just, oh yeah. I thought it was funny, you know? Totally. And so the really, the way that changed was through Alaska. 2 (7m 5s): So my, in 2016, I graduated high school. Three days later I left for my first season up there. And I had been hired as a videographer. And so my job was to hop in the boats with the guests and film them and put a small video together. And even back then we were burning them to, to DVDs. And so I had this opportunity to hop in three or four boats throughout a five day rotation and then spend a whole day editing. And, you know, we, I got to film all sorts of different clientele and my interest was definitely peaked watching a few people because it is elegant, right? I mean, even If you know myself making fun of fly anglers, like I was like, it’s interesting. 2 (7m 48s): Oh Dave (7m 48s): Right. So in those when your videography, you were actually, those were fly guys, not not gear guys? 2 (7m 53s): Well, it was a mixture of both. Yeah. A mixture, yeah. Is my point. Yeah. And especially during silver season, like that’s when we’re getting at least, I guess at that point, that was where we were getting the bulk of our eng our fly anglers. Now it’s split pretty 50 50 throughout the season. But, so that first year, 2016 was also a pink year. And one of the dock hands that I had become decent friends with, he’s from Idaho and Avid Fly Angler. And I just remember watching him off the dock and thinking to myself, you know, maybe, maybe I’ll have to give it a whirl. And it just so happened that one of the guides that was fishing for us, he had been on the Togiak since like 1987. 2 (8m 38s): And we called him the Legend because he had guided for a couple different camps. Like he had been on the river before, way before the lodge had ever even Oh, wow. And his name is John Bianchini, great guy. And just this like kind of a mentor. And he offered to me, you know, to, to really teach me how to fly fish and gimme casting lessons and stuff. So like every evening, you know, pretty much the entirety of the silver season, he would take me out onto a gravel bar and just, and just start teaching. And he didn’t wanna have a bunch of other guides there to give their opinions on how I should cast and blah, blah blah. And he was really patient with me. Dave (9m 16s): Was this single hand or, or spay Single hand. Yeah, single hand. Okay. Yeah. 2 (9m 20s): And it was just spectacular. And so my dad had been given the opportunity to come up during our silver season with a opioid addiction for a long time. And he was just starting to kind of claw his way out of it in, in late 2016. It’s from an injury. And so Larry, and this like, this shows you the heart of the previous owner. Like he had invited my dad to come up the whole entirety of the silver season to try and give him a wow. Something to look forward to. Wow. Dave (9m 49s): That’s that’s crazy. That gives me goosebumps. 2 (9m 52s): Yeah. And it’s, and we try, you know, not to rabbit trail we will a lot, but that’s why we, we have big hearts and we wouldn’t be in this position if there hadn’t been a ton of grace extended to us. And so we do, we try to take advantage of giving other people those opportunities. But anyway, we’re in the boat and I had, you know, I was just good enough to get, you know, a pink clouder out, you know, maybe 15 feet, 20 feet, but with the amount of pinks in the river, it just didn’t matter. I mean, they’re always willing participants. And so I got to catch my first salmon on a fly rod with my dad and my brother. And I couldn’t cast with a dam, but it was like, it was pretty gratifying to be able to catch something and not be able to cast. 2 (10m 34s): And that’s what I tell folks is like, it’s a great place to learn because it is a target rich environment and there’s no better way than to actually have fish in front of you to be able to teach yourself, okay, This is how I need to cast. You know what I mean? Like, it, it just helps. And so once I got that first pink, I was like, This is pretty dang cool. And so the rest of the season, you know, I made it my goal to try and get a silver. And I don’t know if I did that first season or not. I know for a fact bought a couple cheap eight weight setups that following year. So 2017 I really got into it and I had learned a ton. And, you know, at that point, like I really enjoyed it. 2 (11m 14s): And so, especially during the silver season, I’d go out with my dad and my brother in the evenings and, you know, despite being ridiculously tired because filming, you know, especially after a editing day, I, I was working 13, 15 hour days sometimes trying to get everything done. ’cause I didn’t wanna, I didn’t want any of the customers to leave without their videos being done. ’cause I knew if they left, like there was a good chance if I procrastinated, it might be a while until they have them. And I didn’t wanna be put in that situation. So it’s like, despite being tired, we’d go out, man. And like I said, there’s nothing better than, you know, catching a handful of silvers on a eight weight, you know, with nobody around, with my dad and my brother. 2 (11m 54s): Like, I mean, how special is that? So it’s like, that is amazing. Yeah, there was just a lot of compounding emotions and you know, I was young, 19 years old and it just kind of stuck with me. And so that’s really, 2017 is when my heart started to kind of soften, I will say. And I was like, This is how I want to fish. And my brother and my dad will give me crap. Not that they don’t like, they can fly fish too, and my brother does enjoy it. But that was kind of when I made my decision that This is my preferred method, you know, it’s fun and I wanna learn, I wanna bass fish at home. Like there’s, so it’s just, there’s so many opportunities that I could think of while I was up there that I could do at home fly fishing that I thought would be super unique and cool. 2 (12m 35s): And we had never done them as a family. And, you know, and but then also too, like the conservation side of things, that’s what I, that’s what I was referencing with my heart softening. It’s like, at that point I had started to think about like harvest and especially towards kings and stuff. And, and, and I just, I don’t know, it just kind of just kind of changed my mindset a bit. And so after that season, I just kind of went gung-ho into it and, you know, in the springtime we’d make a trip over to the east side of Washington to Banks Lake. And I was like, okay, well let’s, I wanna catch a couple bass on, on, you know, on the single hand. And so then I started doing that, and then it was just each summer I started gear fishing a lot less and fly fishing a lot more. 2 (13m 18s): And so my first interaction with spay was 2019, and this was right before we bought the lodge, or, so we, we entered our agreement, so to speak that winter. But Larry, the previous owner, had been toying around with the idea of facilitating a spay camp through Steve Morrow. And so 2019 was the first year that Steve came up and he brought two of his customers. And dude, I didn’t even know what spay was like, right? I had no, no clue. And so Zach ended up guiding them and I mean, Zach had no experience either, you know, but fortunately, I mean, you’ve interviewed Steve, like yeah, he’s, I mean, he is, Dave (14m 3s): He’s the man for sure. He’s the 2 (14m 4s): Best. He’s the man. So he kind of directed the show, but we were just patient and you know, when he told us, Hey, This is where the boat needs to be or whatever, like Zach did exactly what he asked him to do, but I made it my goal. I wanted to get out and film some content for him. And I wasn’t, at that point, I was helping Larry manage the business, but what I told him coming into the 2019 season was that, you know, I need to do some amount of filming because at the time, like I wanted to run a, a production company. That’s what I was trying to grow. That’s what I wanted to do after I was done with, with school. And ultimately I had no intentions on, you know, ever becoming owner of the lodge or co-owner. And so I told him, I was like, you’re gonna have to let me get out at least once every other week to go film and I’ll post content for the lodge, but I also wanna be working on my own projects as well personally. 2 (14m 53s): But I just, it was perfect because If you wanted to grow any amount of spay clientele, like Steve was gonna need the content, the lodge was gonna need the content. So I went out with him for a day, might have even been two. And they had really good success at a pretty decently low water year that year. Lots of great places to swing. And I just remember, you know, filming one of his guests and just having a real wide shot on the guy while he was casting. And I was like, man, This is like just watching him cast. And then of course watching some of it back through like slowmo in one 20, I was like, This is, This is kind of cool. Yeah. Like, especially just listening to the sounds like I’m, I’m really, I’m really into smells and I’m into, sounds like I’m an ambiance guy. 2 (15m 39s): And it’s like, I remember sitting like kind of knelt down in the water filming and listening to the line, you know, strip across the water, right. And it was a gorgeous, sunny, beautiful day. And then watching him, you know, get a grab and hook into their first fish. And I was like, This is just, I got a lot of feelings going on right now and I really like it. Like, This is cool, you know, but I didn’t have an opportunity to learn how to cast or anything like that. I just, for the sake of content, I was like, This is just as far as cinema goes, like This is beautiful. So that was really my, my first little taste and I didn’t do anything with it. So fast forward, you know, we’d go through our purchase agreement with the lodge in early 2020 and Steve had a handful of customers that Yeah. 2 (16m 25s): Rolled through between 2020. Dave (16m 27s): Stop there for a sec. Jordan. I think that, yeah, the first off, and we, This is for 2020, as we all know, was like COVID. Yes. You know, right. So I mean, you are literally buying this lodge 2020 COVID hits. 2 (16m 40s): Yeah. So we had a initial purchase agreement agreed upon by the three different parties. So Larry, the previous owner, our investors, and then of course Zach and I by like January 8th, 2020. So at that point, nothing crazy was going on besides the fact that we had a season to prepare for. And that’s pretty late in the game to be making big changes like that. And it was, we, like, there were a lot of risks taken on both sides. Like, you know, Larry is operating in good faith that we are likely going to purchase the lodge, but here we are relying on two of our customers who are now our investors to carry through with this agreement because we come from humble roots, dude. 2 (17m 24s): Like we weren’t carrying the, the, the contract, you know what I mean? Like it was all, it was all on them. So here we are in the middle, the prospect, new owners. And so, you know, Larry was uncomfortable with us making purchase decisions, but at the same time we told them, okay, well if this goes through, This is our season to run. Like, no offense, but we don’t really want to not buy the things that we feel like we need to buy if we’re gonna be the new owners and take on new projects, et cetera. And so there was a lot of good faith on both sides and a lot of, like, if we didn’t know Larry, it would’ve never worked. And a lot of people in hindsight probably would’ve told us like, you made some pretty risky moves. We were spending his money before. 2 (18m 4s): Right. Purchase agreement was like settled or anything if it would’ve fallen through. Like he would, I mean, we would’ve figured out a way to pay him back, but geez, it would’ve been a disastrous situation and COVID did not help with that. And so, you know, we get into late March and we’re like, uhoh, like This is not looking good. Right? We’ve already had money spent and you know, we had told our investors, if this isn’t the right time for you guys, we completely understand. Like, I mean, how would you feel If you were in their shoes? Yeah. Like, we’re about to make a, Dave (18m 35s): Well everybody’s so nobody knows what’s gonna, this has never happened before. Right. Everybody’s, we, and the thing is is it was crazy ’cause some, at one moment you’d be like, okay, okay, I think I know what’s going on. And then all of a sudden the next morning you’re like, man, I’m running for my life. This thing is nuts. 2 (18m 48s): Yeah. So I’ll be honest with you. Like, everything’s closing down. And we were just like, well, we’re gonna pretend like none of This is happening, right? We don’t really have a choice. Totally. Like we’re loading 20 foot shipping containers and taking stuff up to Seattle to ship out. And it, and it was, yeah, it was crazy. And it’s, you know, not to throw Larry under the bus, but he hadn’t followed his own deposit policy and people were asking for refunds and oh dude, it was really stressful. So once we got to May 7th, which is when we technically closed on the whole deal, it felt good, but we weren’t in a great financial position. 2 (19m 28s): And so at that point it was like anyone who hasn’t made a deposit that hasn’t said that they’re going to cancel needs to make a deposit right now also, we’re selling half price trips. Oh yeah. Like it’s, you know what I mean? Like, it was just how do we get anybody in the door? And it was crazy chaotic and I don’t wanna have to ever go through that again. Dave (19m 51s): God. So you made it in some ways, you know, you always look for the silver lining, you know, but you, you started this thing at probably one of the hardest times in history to start what you guys are doing. So it, and now that you made it through that, you know, I’m guessing things are still definitely hard, but probably won’t aren’t that hard, right? 2 (20m 9s): No, there’s a couple silver linings. One is that we had to operate at reduced capacity for several reasons. And that was good to get our feet wet. And I mean, I knew I had experience managing the last two years, but it, managing guests and then now being the team leader for your staff is two different things. And so the staffs and, sorry, the customer side of things was an old hat to me, but directing, directing our team as the new leaders, I hadn’t been given full authority to do that until this point. And that was, that was probably the real learning curve. And really, I think the biggest part of it, it was just learning how to communicate effectively. 2 (20m 50s): Like 90% of any issues in any business is a communication problem. Like a hundred percent of the time don’t, you won’t change my mind on that because, because I’ve learned it firsthand. And so it was just trying to communicate to staff to take care of, you know, particular customers a way that you thought that they should be taking because each guest is a guest is different. And you know, we try and latch on to particular things to make them feel special. Right. And so that was a big learning curve and there were a couple very difficult guests that humbled me, I will say. Right. Was, yeah. Anyway, so that season was, God, it’s, I can’t believe it’s been five years, but yeah. Really difficult. But silver lining, we operated at reduced capacity. 2 (21m 32s): It gave us an opportunity to figure out what the hell was going on. Right. Dave (21m 36s): Figured it out though. I love, and going back to you mentioned your heart softens for fly fishing. I mean it’s really, I love that story because you know, we all have the journey. Like for me, I grew up with fly fishing, but I remember on the other end we used to like have, you know, anti almost gear stuff or the jet sleds. Yeah. The Jet sleds coming up, the Deschutes. In fact, my brother, when we were little kids, made a movie about, it was like a, it was during deer hunting season, it was like anti jet sled movie on the river. Right? Like we all, we hated the jet floods because we had drift boats and they would zoom by us and splash us and stuff. Yeah, 2 (22m 7s): Of course. Dave (22m 8s): But the cool thing about it is, is fly fishing has evolved a lot and, and, and especially now because, you know, I’ve interviewed tons of people, some of the best anglers in the world and fly and they all had a, a lot of ’em had a start in conventional and they actually attribute a lot of the changes in breakthroughs in fly fishing from their gear background. Oh 2 (22m 26s): Sure. Yeah. Dave (22m 27s): Right. And I also feel like it’s just, it’s all like the diversity and stuff, I think it’s all out the windows now. It’s, it’s not the, we’re trying to get away from the old white guy, you know? 2 (22m 35s): Exactly. Dave (22m 35s): Right. And try to get to more of a diverse community of people and 2 (22m 38s): Stuff. Yes, a hundred percent. And absolutely. If I may I have another si little side. Yeah, let’s hear it. Regarding spay for 2020. Well, okay, so we, you know, we were supposed to run and operate a new spay camp with Steve and it fell through completely that season. And and Dave (22m 54s): This is the one, This is the one that we had the episode on it. Yes. The guy who taught you Right. Recently did some spa casting. Who is that? 2 (23m 2s): Floyd? Dave (23m 2s): Yeah, Floyd. So Floyd. 2 (23m 4s): Floyd, This is, This is Pref Floyd. Dave (23m 5s): Oh, This is Pref Floyd. Okay. 2 (23m 7s): Pref Floyd. Gotcha. So we had sent up a container with all of the camping supplies and that, like, that’s a whole, I could do a whole episode on the disastrous trip to get the camping supplies. But anyway, that fell through. But they had a handful of customers that wanted to carry out with their trip. And so, and I’m, when I, you know, it was a handful of ’em, maybe five or so. And so, well, we were desperate for people to be there. So we said, okay, well we’ll take ’em, here’s the rotations. We can do ’em. Really, they can pick whatever timeframe they wanna come. Well that wasn’t a really great experience with, with some of his spay customers. 2 (23m 48s): Some of them were pretty old white guy-ish, If you will. And it’s like, again, it’s a communication thing. And I don’t blame Steve for this. It’s, there just was a lot going on. But they show up, right. And we have them all roomed together. No one has told us otherwise on special room rooming requirements or whatever. All I know is they’re all older except for one dude who has a dog and we’re gonna take ’em space fishing. Right. Okay. So they get there, come to find out there’s a severe conflict between two of them that, of course I have room together and I didn’t know better because I wasn’t told. But there is a severe conflict between these two guys. 2 (24m 28s): They do not like each other. Somehow they end up on the same trip all the time, but they don’t like each other at all. Oh, wow. So now I’m having to rearrange rooms without them there and moving their stuff around. And it was just disastrous. Oh man. The one, the one older guy was, was a lot to deal with. And so, and, and dude, we don’t have any dedicated spay guides at this point. Like, that was the whole point of having Steve and his crew there was to facilitate these guys in their specialty, This is not ours. And so it was a kind of a rough five days and I didn’t have the best taste in my mouth. I’m like, man, if This is how their customers are gonna be, I don’t know that I’m really interested in this. 2 (25m 8s): Anyway, so it was a little bit of a disaster. 2021, we roll into that finally get the, the camp going, but we get this terrible high water and they flood out. You know, for those who’ve listened to Floyd and Steve’s podcast that they’ve heard this, it was, it was an epic, epic disaster. And so we quickly see this idea of spay, you know, sinking no intended. And, and to be honest with you, we didn’t need it. Like it was just a side gig. Like, okay, this will make us a right. Dave (25m 41s): But that’s really the interesting thing about This is that while we’re going, you’ve got all this schnook stuff in other areas of Alaska, right. These changes and closures and stuff, and you guys are seeing the writing on the wall, the fact that man, yes, we’re not gonna be killing fish at a a rate that we did in the past. 2 (25m 55s): Yeah, yeah. For sure. 2019 was a huge drop off in numbers and for a number of reasons, like it was really hot, like the water was low and we just didn’t get the fit. Like it started out really strong and then it just fell on its face. And so 2020, dude, honestly, I can’t really remember what the run was like. I know that people caught fish. I know that there were long-term customers that had complained about the fishing, but Yeah. So, but, but my point was is that the spay camp was supposed to be this like little side deal that would give Steve an opportunity and us an opportunity to make a little extra money that we ultimately wanted to use to pay off, you know, the investors quicker. 2 (26m 39s): But we didn’t wanna be, we didn’t need to be reliant on it. In fact, we said if this isn’t gonna go smoothly, then we’ll just xna it and move on. Right. But it was like e each season maybe we would have a handful of, of spa guys. So 22, he had like five dudes that came up and they did okay. But the biggest conflict here is that we had spay customers mixed in with our gear customers. And even, even when they had a separate camp and a split shift and they’re on the water at different times, like there’s just conflict, Dave (27m 16s): Right? Because were guys still in 22, were guys still able to kill Chinook. Yes. 2 (27m 22s): Yeah. Yeah. And so there’s conflict. Dave (27m 25s): So you had guys that were, you had the gear guys that were looking to kill fish and, and then the spay guys, which were probably not 2 (27m 30s): Correct, but, and then on top of that though, speaking specifically to 21, I, you know, it doesn’t really matter how many times we told the gear team, like, Hey, we’re all one team, we need to work together, give them their space, blah, blah, blah. You get particular guides with preconceived notions or opinions like I used to have. Yep. Right? Yep. They’re like, you know, f these guys, right? This is my water, whatever. And so God bless our spay crew, they didn’t really say anything about conflict until our exit interview at the end of the season and kind of enlightened us on a couple of guides that were just completely hosing them intentionally. And it, dude, it pissed us, Zach and I off so badly. 2 (28m 12s): Like, like I just don’t understand, like I we’re, we’re, we are the same team here. Like we’re all wearing the same logo. Like why is there this contention between the two? And it just, it’s unacceptable. Like that’s it. I tell people all the time that we expect our staff to be an extension of Zach and I in our hearts, and that’s not it at all. And I’m not interested in having any staff, any guides there that are gonna treat, you know, other people that way. It’s, it’s bulk crap, you know? And so anyway, we made it through that and, but in, in kind of a, I don’t even know how to describe how to, how to describe this. There were proposals on the table in 2022 that would move our king fishing to catch and release only artificial only as well. 2 (28m 60s): And to be honest with you, we had been told by our regional biologists that really it was of no concern that it likely would go through blah, blah, blah. And so we had every intention of being at the Board of Fish meeting that fall to fight that proposal. But I mean, and I mean in terrible timing, Zach and I, days before we were supposed to fly up to Anchorage got really sick. I mean, we never get sick. And I’m Dave (29m 25s): COVID 2 (29m 27s): The flu. Dave (29m 27s): Oh, the flu, right? Yeah. Started 2 (29m 29s): With RSV and then it moved into the flu and we just got hammered. Dave (29m 33s): God. Yep. 2 (29m 34s): Yeah, dude, I just, I feel, at the time I felt just incredibly weak for not going and pushing through, but I couldn’t, I’m like, there’s no way I can get on a plane right now. And so I was like, okay, the biologist has told us it’s really not a worry, it’s not gonna pass, et cetera. Well, I’m listening, I’m listening to the Board of Fish meeting and they get to our proposal and they’re him hawing and it’s like, okay, it’s gonna go our way. And then they vote unanimously to pass the proposal. And I was like, dude, Dave (30m 3s): And what was the proposal? 2 (30m 4s): Catch and release only for kings except for fish under 20 inches. Which I mean Dave (30m 10s): They’re, yeah, that’s not, yeah. So basically this shuts down the way of life of, of Togiac the way it’s been for years at Togiak, 2 (30m 17s): 30 years, dude. Dave (30m 19s): Of of people coming up there and being able to take home 50 pounds of fish 2 (30m 23s): For of kings. Yeah. This is like, This is 50% of our business like right, gone right there. And I have people on the books for 2023 fully anticipating getting there and being able to retain kings. Like that’s, that was our clientele, you know, so when I tell you that it threw me into a state of mourning as if I had lost a family member, right. Or in depression, like I cannot stress that enough, like severe depression. Wow. Like how am I gonna break the news? Like, dude, integrity for us is everything. And how am I gonna break the news to half a season of clients that they can’t kill kings? 2 (31m 3s): And I think our, we overreacted, but it’s just, it was out of just, it was out of good faith like that. We want to take care of our guests. Yeah. We don’t wanna be that lodge. It’s like, Hey, by the way, you can’t do this. Dave (31m 14s): Right. You were thinking worst case scenario, like, oh my god, everybody’s gonna cancel or they’re gonna Yes. It’s the end of end of chinook fishing. Yes, 2 (31m 21s): Yes. Yeah. They’re all gonna cancel and Yeah. Dave (31m 24s): Yeah. So what happened, what happened with those people with that season? 2 (31m 28s): So we, we strategized, how can we get around this? What can we offer them that will outweigh not being able to take fish home? Can we work with a cannery in town to potentially get kings from them so that they can still take some amount of fish home? Because it’s not that they can’t fish for ’em, they just can’t kill ’em. So I’ll be honest, we waited probably a bit longer than we should have, but like we just wanted to have a solid plan in place. And so we send them an email in like, I wanna say March, right? And we knew about it in November and we send ’em an email describing all the new things we’re gonna offer. So we’re gonna offer boat out trips to a couple new systems. 2 (32m 10s): We’re gonna get 25 pounds of king and sockeye from the cannery for everybody to go home with on top of whatever else they might choose to harvest while they’re there. And if they really are so upset about the situation, then we will roll it forward to a, a good silver date in a following year if they want to. Dave (32m 28s): Wow. Those are all, I mean those are all super valid. We, yeah. 2 (32m 32s): We started a halibut program where we bought a, this mutant of a ocean boat to send up there to do halibut trips. Like, I mean we, we in hindsight, we way overreacted, way overreacted and, and the resp, the bulk of the responses that we got were, thank you for letting us know, like, we appreciate it. Still gonna be a good time, blah, blah, blah. And if I would’ve known, if I would just would’ve known that that would’ve been the reaction, then I just, we wouldn’t, I mean dude, we spent a lot of unnecessary money Yeah. To Dave (33m 5s): Do you still have the, do you still have the mutant boat? Oh 2 (33m 8s): Yeah. Oh yeah. But if we didn’t have to go through that like it, God, it would’ve saved us so much. I mean we’re over, well over a hundred thousand dollars God, you know, trying to facilitate people’s happiness because we were so scared of the backlash. And I only had out of everybody, I had two people cancel. I had one guy roll a trip forward to the following year and then I had a group of three, three people out of, you know, a hundred guests or more. That really gave us a hard time. Sure. Like hardcore time, like really, really, really upset. And I gotta give it to my brother, he’s a really good negotiator. He’s pretty good at getting people to come back from the edge, so to speak. 2 (33m 50s): And we just told these guys, we’re like, okay, we’ll take a gamble here. You guys follow through with the trip. If you really are so disgusted with the trip on day five, we’ll give you a full refund, but I don’t think that’s what’s gonna happen. And they were pissed, man. Like they were really, really pissed off. Dave (34m 7s): Did they ask for a refund 2 (34m 8s): Initially? And we just told ’em like, Hey, hang in there, it’ll be okay. Like, just ’cause we didn’t want to and it was the right choice. And that was gonna like, so that was the gauge on how is our season gonna go? How are these three people going to react to their trip? And that’s gonna tell me how the rest of the season is gonna go. And so they were there July 6th through the 11th, great time for Kings and AKA and everything else. And so they’re there and like we had a saltwater halibut signup sheet and I put them on the signup sheet first before they even got there because if there was any sort of inclement, whether at any point in the trip I wanted them to have dibs, like I was so concerned about these three guys and what their reaction to the trip was gonna be. 2 (34m 52s): And so they get there and Ryan Pitcher was guiding them and their first afternoon they went and caught a bunch of chums on the fly and a couple of kings. And it was interesting because like two of the guys were pretty diehard fly anglers, but they wanted to kill kings bad. Oh really? It was really kind of strange. Like I don’t see that real often. And so first afternoon they had kind of lightened up a little bit, but they were pretty pissed even getting off the plane. And that first afternoon when they said they had a good time, I was like, okay, well we’re moving here and we’re moving in the right direction. Well they are, like I said, they have dibs on the first trip out into the ocean. So they go the next day, they have the best halibut day that any of our guests have ever had. 2 (35m 35s): Oh really? Yeah. They come back with three halibut over 60 pounds, the biggest one being like, wow. Probably close to 90. And they were elated Dave (35m 44s): And you can keep halibut. 2 (35m 45s): Yeah. Two Dave (35m 46s): Per day. Yeah. So they were, so they got their fish, they got some, I mean they got their fish. There’s not much better than halibut, right? No. 2 (35m 50s): And they were so stoked with that trip that they ended up donating like 35 pounds of halibut so everyone could have a halibut dinner. Oh, cool. And it was epic. And they apologized. They apologized and they left a couple of five star reviews. And it, at the end of it, the older guy that booked the trip is in his mid to late eighties and he sent us this email and was like, you know, if This is my last trip, which it certainly could be, his exact words were, this was a humdinger of a trip. And so I read that, look at that, I read that out to Dave (36m 22s): That’s amazing. 2 (36m 22s): All of our staff at the next meeting. And was I just, man, Dave (36m 26s): That whole story is so amazing is that it could have gone a lot of different ways, you know, it could have gone really bad, but I think This is a testament to you guys, you know, and This is what I hear and just been working with you, you know, I mean, I think that you guys, what you guys bring is, is that, you know, you could have fought with the guys more. Yeah. But you didn’t, you went out and bought boats and stuff and, and were so Yeah, right. It turned out good. Right. 2 (36m 47s): Well, we want every single person that comes up there to have that kind of trip. And if it’s any less than that, like I feel burdened by it, you know what I mean? Like it’s, it’s so incredibly important. Will that change with time? Possibly. We have people all the time that ask, well, are you gonna find someone that can manage it during the summer so you don’t have to be there as much? And the short answer right now is no, because I don’t feel like unless Zach and I are there, our guests are not gonna get the trip that we feel like they deserve. I’m sorry. Like our heart is into it so much. It’s like I, I know every little thing that makes a guest just absolutely so elated and they deserve it, man, it’s a lot of money. 2 (37m 27s): And for now, no way. Like we ha one of us has to be there to make sure that that trip is facilitated Anyway, so I know we kind of got into the weeds. Yeah, Dave (37m 35s): Yeah. Well well let’s take it back to on the spay, because we were in the middle there. Your, your journey. So Yeah, where are you out now? Are you, are you a master spay? Caster? Oh God no. 2 (37m 45s): I know if I, so let me go back to 23 because This is a really important element to me learning how to pay fish. So 2023, Steve reaches out to us and he says, Hey, I got a guide, you know, from the Deschutes, his name’s Chris Childs and he has two Scottish guests that wanna come and space fish for like, I can’t remember if they came for just two weeks the first time or if it was a full three weeks. But it was an unbelievable amount of time. And of, of course, you know, with the reg changes and other customers and stuff, we were gonna take whatever we could get at that point. And so we said, okay, interesting. I guess maybe this might be a good gauge on whether we have a legitimate spay fishery here and if they like it then maybe we can think about running a space specific season and we’ll run it outta the lodge. 2 (38m 33s): No more tent camps. Like it’s really the way that it probably should be. And so Chris comes, of course, he’s a wonderful human being. You’ve interviewed him, he’s just Fanta, I can’t wait for you to meet him in person. Yeah, definitely. He’s a nice guy. And so his two guests from Scotland come and they’re a hoot too. Like they’re amazing people. They were there for at least two weeks, had a great time. And they walk away from that trip saying, This is the most bizarre and epic king fishing we’ve had on two handers ever. And they came over from the, they came over from the connect talk. Right? Oh wow. Yeah. They left good spots at Alaska West that they had. Sure. And that’s where Chris came from as well. And they said, This is the most epic king fishery we’ve ever experienced. 2 (39m 15s): Now granted, they were the only two spay fishermen the whole season, right. And so they were largely left alone, but they did have to work around gear anglers and, but they were, they just had the kind of personality that there were no conflicts there. So based off of their trip, and I gotta give it to ’em, and I hope that Jeff and Graham are listening to this because they definitely were huge in kind of pushing us into running a space season. They had a great time. And Chris was like, I’ve never been so obsessed with a river before. And so like, I wanna be a part of this and I think that it’s gonna work. And so that’s what ultimately made us decide, okay, 2024 we’re making a spay specific season and epic, you know, Steve Morrow is gonna book a lot of the trips, but we’re gonna see if this works. 2 (39m 60s): And so this was, you know, we’re relying on them a ton because again, we don’t come from that industry, we don’t come from that niche. You know, I’ve never casted a spay rod before. I’ve always made fun of them, et cetera. So yeah, I couldn’t, dude, I couldn’t even sell a trip. Like if I could not articulate what it was sales pitch Yeah. To someone who may have called. Right, right. Like, I just, not possible. So I made it, my goal last year, I’m like, I gotta be able to talk the talk if we’re gonna do this. And so they’re out fishing, it was probably like late June and all of our spay anglers are out and they stay out all the way through lunch, which our gear anglers later in the season do not. So there’s actually kind of a, an abundance of time for Zach and I not interacting with guests, which is, feels strange, but it’s quite nice actually. 2 (40m 46s): And so I’m standing there on the edge of the dock and I look over and I see one of Steve’s lodge, you know, nine, 10 nam spay rods. And I’m like, Hmm. And I, dude, I have never, I’ve never even held one and he’s not there, no one’s there. I’m like, well, we’ll we’ll see if we can whip a bug. Like we’ll give, we’ll give it a whirl. I had no idea what the hell I was doing. And so needless to say, I could not cast it all, but I was like, This is interesting. This is interesting. So he comes back in that evening, I’m like, All right man, I’m ready. Like can you teach me how to do it? And, and he’s just such a soft, was it, was it Steve or Steve Morrow. 2 (41m 27s): Yeah. Yeah. Such a soft, mellow, nice guy. So like the next two evenings he gives me these small lessons on the doc. And so it didn’t take long. It’s like, it’s all physics, right? Like they’re just giant role casts, like that’s not Yeah, they’re, Dave (41m 40s): That’s what, it’s not 2 (41m 41s): Like if you’re explaining it to someone, that’s Dave (41m 43s): All it is. 2 (41m 43s): Understand the physics and understand they’re just role casts. And so I was pretty quickly able to get it out, you know, good enough ways. And you know, for the guests that are coming with you up to the lodge, they’ll see like, there’s a fantastic run right off the dock and we catch fish there all the time. Oh, wow. Yeah. All like kings chums, sockeye. So the water was really high and that run right in f off the dock was just swinging great. Like, people were catching fish right off the dock. And so within a week I just made it my goal. I’m like, I’m gonna go cast a little bit each day and just try and get into some sort of repetition. And, and it also, it’s, it’s, it’s soothing and it’s, you know, it’s stressful being up there for us. 2 (42m 24s): And This is very therapeutic. And so just learning how to cast getting a little better. And within five days it was bizarre. I get this grab, I’m on the dock and I’m like, oh my gosh, This is crazy of all species. I cannot believe that my first, you know, fish on a spay rod was a sockeye like 10 pounds. Oh, Dave (42m 44s): A sockeye. Yeah. Right. Which are known to not really bite that much or Yeah, 2 (42m 48s): No, but that’s again, you know, we’ve made the argument that in the right water conditions they will bite. And that’s a great example. But I’m fighting this fish. I’m like, oh my gosh, This is like a 10 pound, you know, you know, buck sockeye. Unbelievable. And I was hooked because that grab is much different than it is on a single hand. And it’s like you get down towards the end of the swing and then bam, it just hits you and it’s panic, it’s sheer panic. And I didn’t know how to set the hook or anything. I just kind of let him grab it and turn. And then it was like panick. We set the hook and bam, there it was. And so after that I was so hooked, like I was like, This is, that was Dave (43m 23s): It. You got your fish. 2 (43m 24s): This is amazing. So every day I’m out there casting, I practiced every day of the season. Now that doesn’t necessarily mean that I wasn’t developing incredibly bad habits, which I later learned with Floyd, but I caught a handful of super jacks, you know, su jack kings, you know, 27, 28 inches, which was super. And then I took mine and Zach’s boat out a few times and rallied on some chums, which are always willing participants, especially on a swung fly like that. And I was just like, This is magical. I love this. I want to go home and explore fisheries at home and do this same thing. Like it’s just, I don’t know what it is about it, but This is, This is what I’ve been looking for. Dave (44m 2s): Yeah, you found it, you found your, your tribe. Oh, 2 (44m 5s): It just, it just lit this fire, man. And I’ve just, you know, I try to articulate what it kind of, how it makes me feel and like my dad doesn’t understand and a lot of, a lot of the gear anglers that I talk to about it, yeah. I think I’m kind of crazy and right. But they, I don’t know, maybe I’ve just, maybe I’ve just adopted this fine taste for life, but magical. And so, you know, I, so I practice, I practice a ton that this last season. And so we book, we book four Days with Floyd on the Olympic Peninsula and the whole point of it was to train one of our gear guides who was like really interested in getting into spay. And that was, it was just, it was gonna be a crash course for him, but you know, I wanted to go through with it, it was as well and, and continue to learn. 2 (44m 52s): And so Floyd very quickly is like, dude, you got some really bad habits. Dave (44m 58s): Yeah. 2 (44m 58s): You got some really bad habits. And so finally, like, my problem was that my D loop was horrific. I wasn’t bringing the rod back enough, I wasn’t loading up enough and I was more concerned with where am, where am I casting? And so now I’m trying to just shoulder my way through everything, right? And so at a certain point he looks at me and he is like, okay, you are no longer allowed to look at where you’re casting. You are only allowed to look behind you and make sure your D loop is doing what it needs to do. And do not look, do not with a capital D look where you are wanting to cast. And so that’s how I had to break it. And so at the end of day two, we come into this last spot, we’re on the Boga Shield. 2 (45m 38s): We didn’t, I didn’t plan on hooking anything. I was just so stoked to be there and to be casting and learning, et cetera. And we get down in this last run, we’re not too far from the pullout. And he tells me, get out, go make a few casts and If you make one good one then you know, we’ll get outta here. And so I’m casting, and it was so funny ’cause him and Aaron are watching me and he is like, dude, you are casting 110 degrees up river. You need to be at like 75. And I just turned and looked at him and I’m like, you told me not to look where I was casting you. Dave (46m 10s): Right. 2 (46m 11s): And so he’s like, I want you to make one more cast, and if it’s a good one, we’ll get outta here. And so I do. And for anyone that doesn’t know Floyd, he’s, he can be very intense, especially when he’s like on the river, it’s a good intense, but it’s like sometimes I don’t know how to read it. Yeah. And Dave (46m 27s): He, he’s diehard, he’s, he’s, he’s full 2 (46m 29s): On, he’s diehard. It’s wonderful. And so I make this last cast and apparently it was a good one. And he come, he comes like storming up to me and with this serious face and I thought he was upset ’cause I didn’t feel like the cast was very good. And he comes up to me and he is like, that was perfect. Let’s go. And I was like, oh, wow. I, there Dave (46m 47s): You go. 2 (46m 48s): I thought you were going a different direction there. But yeah, so it’s, that’s my journey, man. Yeah. It’s like, it’s not much. I’m still an infant really. And Right. Dave (46m 57s): And people have said that. Great. Spanglers on this podcast, you’ve chosen to do the hardest thing in fly fishing, the swung fly, try to, and especially you’re down, I’m assuming boggo shield, you’re steelhead fishing. Yes. Yeah. So I mean, you are choosing to swing a, a fly, a swing up a steelhead. Right? There’s nothing harder than that right. Out there. It’s, it’s one of the hardest things to do. So you, that’s part of the pain. That’s what’s, nobody quite gets it if you’re not in it. Right. But you gotta love that pain. 2 (47m 24s): Yeah. And it’s like, I had no expectations on fish. Like I said, it was just incredibly therapeutic to be out there. And I just wanted, I’m like, dude, I just wanna learn how to cast farther and, you know, mend and all that stuff. And, and it’s, you know, with a eight weight, it’s way easier to learn than on the nine, the nine tens can be really tough. Oh yeah. And that’s a problem that we have with some of our guests coming up is like, they’re so used to throwing lighter spay rods and then they get there and it’s like, dude, when you’re playing with the big boys, it’s, it can be really difficult to get the fly where it needs to be. Just ’cause it’s, it’s a heavy setup, you know, it’s just, you got a lot going on there. So I’m excited to need to learn, and I’m taking it one step farther. 2 (48m 6s): Our spa crew doesn’t know this yet, and this will probably air significantly after this timeframe, but July 1st through the sixth, my video production mentor is coming up to shoot content for his business, but also for the lodge as well. They’ll have a Oh, nice. I had two spots left is that I could have booked, but I said, you know what, my, myself personally, I’m gonna take these last two spots. I’m gonna take a guide for five days and we’re gonna just film and Oh, nice. Learn, and we’re gonna get some great content, you know, and it’s gonna be epic, and I can’t wait. Dave (48m 36s): That’s perfect. Nice man. Well, This is, This is gonna be a good year. I think that Yeah, that’s right. You know, we’re gonna be up there. Like we said, we’re gonna be in talking more about this, what this trip looks like, because for me, to be honest with you, I haven’t done a ton of the big stuff either. You know, I’ve, I’ve fished for salmon, but never kind of at this level with the big stuff. So, so yeah, it’s gonna be a fun year all around. Well, as we kind of take it outta here, I think we’ve, we’ve definitely heard, you know, an amazing story. What is it, as you look out now, I mean, you, you can’t know, but do you look, guys look out like next five years? Are you thinking like, what’s gonna happen here with the thing and, and also with your spay, do you see yourself kind of going all in on this thing? Oh, 2 (49m 15s): We are already all in. I didn’t make a great plan, nor did I really understand the different avenues that I needed to book up a space season. So that has been a little bit of a struggle, as you and I have talked about, but now I kind of have an idea of what needs to happen. And we’re already booking trips for next year, so the snowball is rolling. You know, Chris Child, I had a great conversation with him a few days ago, and he was saying, you know, you have all these spade customers that are on the Sandy or on the Connect talk. They’ve had these spots for years and years and years, and they’re afraid to lose them to try something new that may not be as good like they have tried and true things, but it’s just, we have such a unique system. 2 (49m 55s): I mean, I’m gonna, dude, I’m gonna step out on a limb and say that we have one of the most exclusive remote spay opportunities in Alaska. Like it’s, I mean, we’re talking 12 guests, 12 to 14 guests. No one else is on the river. We’re the only lodge and camp there June and July, pretty much at this point where six miles from the salt, we had the freshest fish. And not in a tent, like you have a hot shower you can go back to every night. Like, there’s not a lot of other places that can offer that. It is truly is exclusive. So we’re all in, and I see us in the next five years having a spay program that is, you know, two years booked out and extremely successful and has gotten good publicity. 2 (50m 40s): And the snowball will be, you know, an avalanche at that point. That’s what we’re working towards as far as the lodge in the big picture. Like I said, This is mine and Zach’s 10th year in Alaska, and I’m young, I didn’t expect to have spent a decade up there already working in five years owning the lodge. So I’ll be honest, like, as much as I love it, I don’t wanna be there forever. Like, it’s, it’s a lot. Dave (51m 8s): Yeah. It’s a start, like you said, next week and then you’re there through when? Wednesday, September. 2 (51m 12s): Yeah. Late September. So ideally in five years, our investors will be paid off. We’ll own everything outright, and then from there five years to show good books and, and maybe think about, okay, who’s, who’s gonna be the next steward? Yeah, Dave (51m 28s): Exactly. Yeah, that’s right. 2 (51m 31s): I hope it’s someone great. We’re not gonna just sell out to sell out it. I mean, it, that replace means way too much to us to, to just let it go to anyone. And I’m, no, I, we’re, we’re talking 10 years out probably here. Dave (51m 41s): Yeah. It’s always 2 (51m 42s): Anyone listening, don’t think that This is gonna happen tomorrow, but it’s something I think about. Yeah, Dave (51m 47s): Yeah. Like any, any good business should have a, you know, should be thinking about that. Right. 2 (51m 52s): A good exit plan. But that’s where I’m at. Like, I love it up there. It’s just, you know, I, dude, I miss my summers down here a ton and you know, we got an eight month old daughter, and I know I wanna be able to share all those. Dave (52m 4s): How is that, let’s take it because that’s amazing. What does that feel like for you having a, you know, now how old is your daughter? 2 (52m 10s): She’s eight months tomorrow, Dave (52m 11s): Eight months old. Like, what is that? That’s, was that a, something that, I mean, hard to explain, right? What that’s like 2 (52m 19s): Yeah, it’s, there aren’t words and people told me beforehand like, you know, it’ll change you. And it has, it’s just you’re like, I, like, I’m already a pretty compassionate person, but you can look at anybody now not to get all, you know, simply or whatever, but you can, like I look at people now and I’m like, man, like that was someone, they were someone’s eight month old sweetheart, just like Stevie is for us. Yep. You know, and it just made, it’s made me incredibly compassionate for everyone. But it’s amazing. I’m gonna miss her so much. I’ll be home in late July for a few days to be able to see her, which I haven’t done in the last two seasons. But, you know, the reality is, is while I’m gone for three to four months, I’m also home for eight. 2 (53m 4s): I’ve had a lot of invariably amazing time with her the last eight months that most folks that work in nine to five would not be able to do. Yep. I’m grateful either way. That Dave (53m 14s): Is, that is amazing. Yeah. And eventually the cool thing is that you could probably see her out up at the lodge. Right? 2 (53m 20s): I know, dude. I, I’m like, I know a lot of guides and you know, friends that, you know, their, their daughters haven’t taken to the outdoors and I’m, I’m deathly afraid. No, Dave (53m 32s): No. That, 2 (53m 33s): That she won’t have the same desire, but it’s like, yeah, I think about it all the time. Like, dude, how cool would it be to go on a spa trip with her? I know. Dave (53m 41s): Ugh, I know. It’s, I’m, I’m, my kids are now 11 and 13 and they’re, you know, both girls. And I remember when I first, I always thought before I had the kid, I was always thinking, oh man, it’s gonna be cool maybe to have a boy Right. To pass on the Yeah. All that stuff. And you know, it’s so crazy ’cause all that stuff goes out the window and you realize, man, these are just amazing people. And, and it’s been so cool because now, and we actually have this river trip we’re getting ready for and they’re not super like, you know, they’re not like all star fly casters or anything like that. Sure. But they love being outdoors, and I think that’s something that I’ve planted the seed that they’re excited for getting on the river, you know what I mean? Well, 2 (54m 17s): Good job. Good job. Because that’s gonna be my goal. And I don’t really care how good they ever are. Like, I just want, want to spend time and I wanna make it fun and I don’t want to, I don’t wanna make it too serious, you know? But yeah, dude, I agree with the, you know, with, I was hoping for a boy too, I think naturally and typically do. But now I really, I’ll be honest, I don’t know that I really can see myself not having girls. No. Is weird. Dave (54m 42s): No, it’s different. Yeah. I, it’s so, yeah, you’re gonna, and it only gets better, right? It, it gets, it’s the hardest thing, you know, that’s the thing about it. Right? It’s the hardest thing you’ll ever do. And the greatest thing Yeah. Is having a kid. Right. Is having a is so cool, Jordan. Well, anything else you want to give a shout out today? I mean, we’ve obviously got some more good stuff coming because we’re gonna be talking, you know, as the trip approaches for us and all that stuff. But anything else you wanna give a shout out, you know, today for everybody who’s listening? Yeah, 2 (55m 8s): Of course. So, you know, it’s not to force anyone into panic buying, but I’m telling you, we got a really cool spay program and we are taking reservations for 2026. We got a handful of spots left this year that we’re running some pretty crazy promotionals for. So If you wanna get in, you know, on some last minute fishing, whether it be spay or single handed stuff later in the season, we got some good deals going. But more importantly, you know, I just wanna convey to people that like our heart and soul is into this program, and while it’s new and some people have a hard time choosing new things, God, it’s epic. And we want people to be a part of a cool new thing. And it’s, Zach and I are an anomaly. We’re incredibly young, and I have a ton of ambition. 2 (55m 47s): And this isn’t just a classic old dudes lodge ran by old dudes, you know, like, it’s fun. It’s a ton of fun. We got a new website out that’s specifically for spay, it’s togiak spay.com. It’s a avenue for, you know, those diehards to get more detailed information on what nice this country looks like, so they don’t have to weed through a gear website as well. But yeah, man, like it’s, it’s cool. We want everyone to have the opportunity to be able to experience how special it is and yeah, it’s just amazing. And so, yeah, we’re taking, taking reservations for 26 already. We’ve got some booking agents that are hosting some trips already, and I’m really excited about what the future has to come for. 2 (56m 31s): Sure. Dave (56m 32s): Awesome. All right, Jordan. Well, like we said, like you said, we’ll send everybody out there, links in the show notes and, and we’ll be following up on all this as we go. So thanks for all your time and yeah, I may really excited to, you know what I mean, to, it’s, it’s, it’s getting closer. Like July is, is right there, right? And so getting 2 (56m 49s): Really close. Dave (56m 49s): Yeah. Cool, man. All right, well thanks all your time. We’ll be in touch. 2 (56m 52s): Awesome, Dave. Thank you. Dave (56m 55s): If you’re thinking about swinging flies in Alaska, whether it’s your first time with a two-hander or your hundredth Jordan and the crew at Togiak have built something special and we’re checking out remote water, fresh Kings, no crowds, it’s all there. You can go to togiak spay.com right now and find out what they have available for the season and let Jordan know you heard them on this podcast. And we will thank you for that in advance. If you haven’t yet, please follow this show. Click that plus button wherever you get a chance on your app, on your Apple or your Apple choice. I also wanna give you a heads up that we’ve got a good episode coming right around the corner and next week it looks like we have CJ’s Real Southern Podcast back next week. Dave (57m 38s): So if you’re interested in hearing more from Chad Johnson, the great Chad Johnson, This is your time to get a feel of Chad and all the goodness. And just wanna say thanks again for checking out the show today. Hope you have a great afternoon. If you have a great evening or if it’s morning, just getting started on the road this morning with this podcast episode, I appreciate you for checking in and check in with me anytime, Dave, at wet fly swing.com. Would love If you haven’t sent me an email yet, please do that. Let me know you’re listening, where you’re coming from, and what species you’re interested in. We’ll talk to you soon. 3 (58m 10s): Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly, swing fly fishing show. For notes and links from this episode, visit wet fly swing.com.