Hunting with a Fly #5 | Streamer Spey Fishing for Big Trout with Rick Kustich

WFS 1008 Transcript 00:00:00 Rick Kustich: This is Rick Kustich author, guide and travel host, and you are tuned in to the Hunting with the Fly Podcast, where we dive deep into the strategy approach, flies and culture surrounding the fly fishing pursuit of apex fish like musky pike trophy trout and saltwater predators. Fooling a fish at the top of the food chain requires the focus and commitment to understand the quarry’s habits, going beyond simply casting and retrieving a fly. Each episode is geared towards information to improve your angling and enjoyment of the quest. If it concerns big flies and aggressive eats, we have it covered here on the hunting with the Fly Podcast. Please stay tuned. Welcome to the Hunting with a fly podcast. I’m your host, Rick Kustich And today again, I will be flying solo and discussing a subject that is of great interest to me, and that is Streamer Spey. Fishing. Combining. Streamer. Fishing for. And you could apply this to to bass and things like that, but I think I really um think of this approach for trout and predatory trout. I think that trout spey has become very popular. And I think that it’s not just a something new or a shiny toy or something trendy. I do think there’s some practical advantages to spey fishing for trout, and particularly when you extend it to fishing with a streamer and, you know, stream rivers, streams, creeks of all sizes. And we’ll talk about that in today’s episode. I think it really fits in the idea of pursuing trout with streamer. Spey fits well into the objective of hunting with the fly. The idea of hunting predators, um, it’s not just something that’s fun to do, which it is. I enjoy the casting and the approach and just, um, you know, overall, uh, you know, Spey fishing, but it is a very effective from a tactical standpoint as well. And we’ll get into that quite a bit here on the rest of the podcast. So I’m often asked, or even in my presentations, what is Spey? What is Spey casting and Spey fishing. And I think really comes down to two things. Uh, the Spey cast is a very efficient ninety degree change of direction cast that can be made, you know, easily. And, uh, you know, without a lot of effort. And it also allows you to make a cast where there is very limited room behind you. So instead of having that, um, you know, with a standard fly cast back cast that if you had trees brush, whatnot behind your position and the fly may end up in in the brush and make it impossible to make that cast. The Spey cast allows for really efficient, effective casting in the most, uh, tight of areas and in areas where you may have, uh, you know, a lot of obstructions behind your casting position. You know, I’m often asked, well, isn’t that just a roll cast? And Spey cast is certainly much more dynamic and lifts that line right off the water and allows you to really make powerful casts, accurate casts. And both of those are, you know, really important with respect to, uh, delivering a streamer on rivers and streams. So really, that’s the key to this approach. The key to, to streamers, Spey effective, efficient casts that can be made in very tight areas. And if you think about maybe some of the places that you fish for trout and where standard back casts are problematic because of brush and logs, and over in trees, the streamer spay approach really can alleviate that and make you an effective angler in those situations. So let’s talk a little bit about the equipment that I use for streamer spay. And this isn’t, you know, the today’s discussion isn’t just focusing on trout spay as a wider spectrum, but is really just talking about the approach to full larger predator trout and, you know, bass, if you want to apply it to that. Uh, and so it’s really a, it’s a, a focus on delivering bigger stream replies, fishing those flies, how to present them. And, uh, in an effort to fool some of the, the largest trophy sized trout in a, in a river stream. So the equipment for streamer Spey. You know, it’s fairly straightforward, fairly simple. There are rides now on the market that two hand rides that are been scaled down just to match with the size of trout streams, with the. So they match well with the size of a trout in the fight of trout. Most of these two handed trout Spey rods will handle a grain weight range of. Maybe on the lower end of one eighty down up to. On the higher end, maybe three fifty grains, something in that range, but are often marketed as three and four weight rods, two hand rods. Um, you’ll also see some on the market that are one or two weights, and they can be a little bit light for delivering streamers. Those rods generally match better with, um, you know, the kind of a wet fly approach. So for streamers, three, four weights, I even have one that’s designated as a five weight that I used on some of the larger trout rivers that I fish, Spey fishing and Spey casting. While it’s more lined up and traditionally lined up with two hands, two hand casting, there’s also every one of the Spey cast. Every Spey cast can be made with a one hand rod as well. So it can be made just one hand casting. And there are some rods on the market that are marketed and designed as one hand Spey rods. These generally handle for trout anyways, handle a grain weight window of about one hundred eighty to two hundred fifty. And you know, again, specific rods for one hand spey. But almost any single hand rod that’s nine feet or longer would work for single hand or one hand Spey casting and fishing. So if you have a nine foot five weight that generally use for trout may be used for dry fly fishing. For trout, that rod could easily be converted to a one hand Spey streamer rod as well. And I’ll talk a little bit about the rigging, but it would just be using a fairly short head, but a very effective tool for particularly very small, tight casting areas. And, um, you know, I use that approach quite a bit as well on some of the, the Western New York streams that I fish on quite a bit. So that’s pretty much the, uh, the equipment and you just want to reel that can handle or that has a nice smooth drag system and that can hold enough of the, uh, uh, you know, of the Spey line, you know, the, some of the Spey lines and some of the lines we’ll be using here I want to talk about in a second little thicker diameter. So you want to just make sure the reel has enough capacity to, to handle that comfortably. Um, as far as rigging goes, you know, in modern Spey fishing, Spey casting today, We think in terms of the weight of the head of the line. So as I mentioned, you know, for two hand fishing, usually the grain weight window is going to be somewhere one eighty two hundred up to three fifty. Um, the style of heads that we normally use for streamer Spey fishing are going to be a head that has enough mass to turn over a larger, um, streamer, usually using a sink tip as well. So Skagit style heads tend to work best with the streamer Spey approach and are marketed usually under, you know, just Skagit um, heads. And again, that larger momentum or larger mass, larger diameter is something that you need to keep in mind when you’re trying to accommodate that with the size of the reel. For the most part, when I’m Spey fishing, Spey casting. I use a loop de loop um combination for. So the head is separate from the running line. It’s looped on. You know, the casts are made with the head just beyond the tip of the rod. The one place where I like to have an integrated running line to the head that you’ll be casting and delivering the fly with is when I’m Streamer Spey Fishing. And I like that integrated line because a lot of times, and we’ll talk about the techniques here, but a lot of times I’m going to be stripping that fly to give it extra motion. And when I strip that line back so that the running line is and the head is coming in past the tip of the rod, I like that smooth connection where there isn’t a loop to loop clicking through the guides when you’re making that retrieve. So it’s one place that really I advocate using a integrated Skagit or streamer Spey type line. Um, normally I’ll be fishing a sink tip off the front of the, uh, the Skagit head. Um, my tips will generally be, you know, five to seven feet. Sometimes I’ll lengthen that out to ten feet if I really want to get the fly down some slower, deeper water. Um, the sink rates of those tips are generally going to be four to seven inches per second. Again, depending on how quickly I want to get the fly down to the bottom or, you know, or just how fast I want that fly to sink into the water column. And, um, as far as the tippet, I’m going to run maybe three, four feet off of the front of the tip. And I want to make sure that that tippet strength is heavy enough to withstand the biggest fish that that may exist in, in the river that you’re fishing, river creek that you’re fishing. So, you know, most of the time it’s eight even up to twelve pound test. You know, I feel like particularly in water, if it’s a bit stained, that the fish is going to react to the movement of the fly and isn’t going to be, you know, I don’t think, deterred or spooked by heavier tippet. So I always want to be the last thing I ever want to do when I’m fishing for, you know, potentially the, you know, the, the largest fish of the season or the fish of a lifetime has ever had that fish grab the fly and, and, and break off. So I’m always going to make sure that I am fishing heavy enough at all times to, uh, you know, withstand the grab and the take of the, you know, maybe the biggest fish that you’ll see during the season. I usually don’t, I’m usually just using monofilament, but in clear water conditions. Uh, I, I will try to go stealthier and use fluorocarbon. So that’s really the, you know, the equipment and rigging aspect of it. Pretty simple. And, uh, you know, I try to try to keep my rig as, as simple as possible. I’ll just carry a few different tips, you know, length and sinking. Sink rate and, um, you know, a few different sizes of tip. It’s just for the water conditions, but overall keeping it simple. I like the, you know, the simple approach and, and focus more on the presentation and the casting and a little less on the actual rigging as far as the casting goes, you know, for the most part, I’m going to be using somewhat larger flies. The one thing about Spey casting is you are using the tension of the fly, your leader tip, maybe a little bit of the front of the head on the water. As you know that that tension is what loads the rod for the cast. For the most part, if you’re using a really large fly, it’s going to be difficult. You’re going to create a lot of tension and it’s going to be difficult to make that cast. So we’re not generally in streamer Spey going to be using maybe the six seven inch flies that you may see when you’re single hand casting or pounding the banks out of a drift boat. This is going to be a little bit different of approach most of the time. The flies a big fly for Streamer Spey, maybe three or four inches in length. Most of my flies will have some weight on it. And again with fishing a sink tip, the best approach for the most part, is using sustained anchor casts. So the double Spey or the C Spey. Both of those sustain anchor casts. Establish your anchor. Initially you make some movements with the rod. If you’re not familiar with these, you make movements with the rod to sweep the rod into the forward spey position, and the fly stays in the water during the sweep and the setup for the forward cast. So it’s a sustained anchor. The anchor is established and maintains itself. The thing about these casts as well is that they move the anchor slightly. So if you’re using a weighted fly or a tip, it helps to keep that fly and tip towards the surface of the water or on the surface of the water, creating less tension. So for the most part, the Double Spey and C Spey match well with Skagit heads and match well when you’re using heavier flies and flies with a lot of mass and water resistance. Um, there are times though, where I’ll go to the especially one if it’s low and clear water conditions and I’m using maybe smaller flies and trying to be stealthier. There are times where I’ll go with the touch and go style casts. So the snake roll and the single spey, um, certainly in low clear water, I’m going to try to create as less disturbance as possible. And um you know, we’ll use those, you know, those flies in those areas that those casts in that situation, I may even go to a scanty head, you know, to try to also help the stealth and increase the stealth aspect of it. So that’s another option. Um, although for the most part, when I’m, uh, streamer Spey fishing, I’m going to be sticking with the Skagit style heads. 00:15:03 Speaker 2: If Belize is on your bucket list for a flats trip, take a look at Blue Bonefish Lodge. You’ll be fishing more than four hundred square miles of flats right along the Belize Barrier Reef. Clear water and endless opportunity. 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So with the standard two hand casting, most of the time the Skagit Head is going to be anywhere from, I know, sixteen to twenty foot in length. Um, when I’m single hand spey, casting the head can be quite short, and some of those heads might only be twelve feet, fourteen feet. Um in a lot of cases with the single hand. It’s such a short head that I’m able to almost do a, a single hand, a single spey, um, off of either shoulder. And, uh, it really almost eliminates or shortcuts some of the Spey casting itself where I’m almost just relying almost entirely on a single Spey to make that cast when I’m on one hand, Spey casting. And again, it really makes that versatile and functional to be able to cover a lot of different water and very tight streams. And as much as, you know, I’m going to talk next about the size of the water. As much as I enjoy fishing larger rivers with this technique, just where I live, for the most part, the waters are pretty small. So I’m in this situation where a lot of times I’m just single hand spey casting in very tight areas on smaller streams, and it is very effective, just really efficient in terms of how much water I can cover and quickly. And a lot of times that’s really what this whole approach comes down to is just searching, searching for an active fish, searching for, you know, fish that’s ready to feed. So, you know, just, just using a single one hand spay, single spay cast, very efficient. So type of water that I fish with the streamer spay varies widely. I can use this technique on big rivers, big water. The advantage of that is it really allows me to make nice long casts. Um, have, you know, provides the feeling of, you know, that I’ll get when I’m fishing a, a bigger river for steelhead or salmon. So big waters, big tail waters match really well with the full two hand spay approach. You know, three weights, four weights, even up to five weights. Um, you know, in that type of situation. Um, it also matches well with moderate sized rivers, you know, rivers where maybe you can still make long casts, but maybe the long cast is reaching the other side of the river and you can work along the, the, the opposite bank. Um, as you’re making long casts, again, a fun way to fish. Uh, and I think if I really tried to match what I enjoy the most would be the, you know, kind of a moderate sized river like that where I really feel like I can reach all the structure, even if some of that, you know, some of the structure requires some really long casts to, to get there. Um, and then this approach, as I just mentioned, you know, a little bit ago is, uh, very much home on some of the smallest rivers or smaller creeks and streams and really matching it with a single hand, single hand spay single spay cast. You can cover just a wide range of waters. I really focus on, you know, structural elements, you know, more closely when I’m fishing these more small intimate waters. And I really feel like it’s opened up a lot for me. I, you know, I’ve been, I’ve been using this approach maybe for the last ten years or so. And up until that time, I, you know, just streamer fishing has been a bit of interest to me, but not in the same manner as since I’ve been streamer Spey Fishing, because it really combines the interest that I have in Spey fishing and Spey casting with the interest that I have in pursuing big trout. So it really has been a good combination. And, uh, I think that’s what interests me the most about it. One thing that I feel is probably and a few, you know, really a few things to be Successful at this. But the one thing that has really that I focus on is fishing conditions and water conditions. And my by far favorite approach, or, you know, the conditions that I look for is water on the rise. I’ve had some of my absolute best days when the water has been been coming up after a rain, maybe, you know, also snowmelt early in the year, but mainly after a rain. Um, the one thing that just really seems to, to loosen up a trout from its hold, really put it on that, you know, in, in that hunting mode is when the water is on the rise. I think it just gives the predator a feeling that they have the advantage and they’re going to take advantage of it. Uh, this period often lasts just a short period. So the timing can be, you know, needs to be critical. You know, I’ll try to always be looking at the forecast. And when I see that there’s going to be a significant rain event, and usually it needs to be, you know, a fairly significant rain event to bring up water quickly. But I’ll try to time my outings so that I can, you know, meet up with that. And the timing is difficult. Um, sometimes it doesn’t rain as heavy as you know, you might be anticipated the water doesn’t go up. What you think it’s going to. Um, there’s other times where it rains hard and the window is very short. And that’s really what I’ve run into more often that you get a heavy rain, particularly on a smaller river. This can even, uh, you know, impact larger rivers and the water just goes up quickly. So the window will be there where fish will really turn on for about an hour or two. And then it kind of shuts down. But my experience has been that if you can get on the water when that, uh, you know, magic hour or two is occurring, that it’s definitely worth it even if it is short lived. I’ve had just some, you know, just had a few experiences where fish just seemed to come out of the woodwork, um, catch a few fish that you just had no idea existed in that river or stream and, uh, really kind of shows you what’s available there and you know, what lives in that river when you get those situations. So water on the rise is my number one condition that I’m looking for. And I’m always, you know, always as a, as being a predator, um, always on the hunt for those types of conditions so that I can hunt the hunter water on the fall can also be really good. So once the water goes up high and then starts to drop back down, that can be also a really good time. I’ve had some great fishing then, it’s usually not as dramatic as when the water is on the rise, but as it’s dropping from mud to, you know, limited visibility into, you know, a foot or so, I think that still puts the predator fish on the hunt. Uh, and it’s a much easier to fool that fish, you know, when there’s some stain in the water as opposed to when it gets really clear, clear and stable water. I still will do some streamer fishing in that as well, you know, maybe during, um, you know, a situation where maybe I’m going to do some dry fly fishing at some point during the day, but it’s, uh, you know, not prime time for a hatch or something along that line. Still nice to get out and do some casting and spey fishing when the water’s low and clear. As I mentioned, kind of get stealthier, uh, stealthier with your cast. Try to disturb the water less. I’m really be cognizant of your of your waiting. Um, I’ll go with, uh, um, smaller flies and just try to just an overall feeling of just more of a stealthier approach I think is the way to go there. When the water is low and clear, I tend to really focus more on the low light periods. So really I don’t not thinking about low light when I have water on the rise or water on the fall. Uh, but when I do get, um, these clear water conditions that first hour or two and the last hour or two, or even fishing into the, the darkness or starting real early so that it’s still dark. Um, definitely puts things, um, you know, in your corner in terms of, you know, favorability. So, um, that’s definitely something I look at is definitely taking advantage of the low light when you have low, you know, clear water conditions, I think, and I mentioned this earlier, but one of the things that, um, I really think about when I’m streamer Spey fishing much more than when I’m just fishing for migratory fish is I really focus on holding structure. So even though, you know, big trout might be cruising a little bit more, especially when the water is on the rise or when, uh, the water is falling, I think overall they’re still going to be some positioning near structure, uh, whether it’s for, you know, hunting purposes or for security. So I really focus on making sure that my casts are being presented near structure and covering all the structure. The one thing that I, that I think about with this is that I don’t want to just speed past, you know, prime areas. I want to make some casts from a few different angles. I mean, normally it’s the first cast I make into a spot where I’ll catch a fish, but sometimes it’s worth taking your time. And instead of just going quickly and and stepping with a, you know, regular rhythm to actually take a little extra time to cover some different water. So, or to cover the water, you know, completely. So focusing on, you know, really this type of holding structure. So things that I think about are, you know, particularly on medium to smaller sized streams, you know, it’s, you know, any type of trough, um, rocky areas, uh, deep areas along a bank, uh, woody structure logs for sure. Logjams, uh, logs down along the side of the, on the, on the bank for me, the woody structure. I’ve caught more fish, more really good fish in smaller to medium sized rivers by just, you know, making a nice accurate cast right along a log, letting it swing into a logjam. It’s where it really caught some very nice fish doing that. So really I in in what I’ve learned too, from talking to a number of biologists, especially on smaller medium sized rivers, woody structure is such an important part of holding and security for trout in these rivers or in these waters, just from the predators that might be after them, you know, ducks and otters and things like that. So the woody structure really provides a lot of that security. So really focusing on that is, uh, you know, has been very effective for me. Um, the other areas, especially on bigger rivers where I, I focus a lot is on drop offs, ledges, things of that nature. So, you know, think in terms of always where the, the prime part of the water is where it’s most likely that a big fish will be positioned in these drop offs. As you know, the current kind of rushes over, you know, a riffle and drops into a pool. A lot of times that’s just going to be a, almost a, uh, a conveyor belt of bringing, you know, potential food items into the, into that holding area. So drop offs, uh, you know, where areas where it gets deep, these troughs along the bank really thinking in terms a lot of that. And, and sometimes you’ll just find some bigger fish right in a main pool. Um, and when you do, a lot of times it’s right behind a boulder or some other type of ledge or structure or something along that line. So, you know, as much as I really try to focus on specific things, sometimes just covering the water, similar to how you would cover it for, uh, salmon or steelhead can also be effective, particularly if there’s, you know, rocks, boulders and things like that in the pool. So, um, I guess that’s the way I look at it is really when there’s specific areas to cover, really make sure you’re covering it. Good casts, um, good presentations. And when you’re fishing bigger water and there’s, you know, maybe you can’t make a cast all the way across the river to the other bank, you know, just really focus on fishing what you can and more of a rhythmic approach. Uh, but looking for rocks, boulders, drop offs to make sure you cover those areas really well. 00:29:53 Speaker 2: Let on to Mark Lodge, give you the Montana fly fishing experience you deserve. The gin clear waters of the Missouri River offer a world class experience with one of the finest rainbow trout and brown trout fisheries in the world. Whether you’re a seasoned angler or new to the sport, their family of guides will tailor a trip just for you. You can head over to Onda Mark Lodge dot com to fish, one of the great trout streams in the country Outpost on the Noosh. S remote. Even by Alaska standards, they give you access to one of the most unique river systems in Alaska. Every day starts with cold mornings, endless daylight in the land of the midnight sun, and a maze of channels that invite exploration around every corner. What I love about this place is it doesn’t try to be easy. The fishing isn’t about racing from spot to spot. 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Um, for the most part, particularly on fishing smaller waters, uh, moderate sized waters and even on bigger rivers as well. I’ll add some action to that fly. I want it moving. I want to give it, um, you know, either the feeling that it’s fleeing away faster than just a straight swing or maybe give it the illusion that it’s a bait that’s been stunned or in some way has been is vulnerable. Um, been compromised. So adding movement can really, uh, I think, entice a fish to take the fly. My basic approach is just to use a, a strip and strip that fly. So each, you know, I’ll make my cast across, get it swimming and then start stripping that fly and how fast, quickly, you know, can often be decided during the course of the day. I’ll play with different retrieves, different cadences, uh, see what seems to be working when I’m fishing. Smaller to. Moderate sized rivers where I can actually reach the structure. So where I can cast like along a log jam, you know, downed tree or whatever. Usually I make that cast and start stripping it right away. And that really seems to be a trigger point. If there’s a fish laying up against that log or right under that log jam. And as soon as that fly hits and it starts to speed away, uh, really seems to be a good, you know, trigger point. So I really try to use that strip technique when I’m covering specific structure like that. So just varying the cadence I’ve found, you know, just kind of a, a fast kind of sharp strip and just a slight pause. And then, you know, continuing that, uh, to be my go to, uh, you know, in terms of the cadence, but I’ll also particularly in colder water, I’ll go to a slower strip, maybe just a, just a bit of a longer strip to, um, as opposed to that, that short jabby strip. But I like that it gives a fly. A lot of movement, makes it look like it’s trying to swim away at the same time. It kind of gives it the look that it’s a bit vulnerable and really like that, that approach, um, that is the reason that I do like the, again, I mentioned it before, but why I like an integrated Skagit head with an integrated, um, running line because with the stripping technique, I am going to be stripping that fly all the way in, usually passed so that the head goes past the tip and make sure you’re always patient with that. Let that fly swing out kind of hang below you. I’ve caught a number of fish where the fish has usually. Usually they take right at the beginning, you know, the fly hits the water, you make a couple strips, boom. You know, it’s a good heavy take. Good, you know, violent grab. But sometimes that fish will follow the fly. And maybe you’ll even feel a couple of, you know, slight pulls and, um, bumps, something like that. But as that fly kind of straightens out and hangs in the, in the shallows, um, be patient and, um, you know, kind of if you, especially if you feel that, uh, keep that fly moving and I’ve caught a number of pretty good fish as the fly has come into the shallows and the fish has chased it down and just kind of followed it and chased it down. So, you know, be patient with the strippers retrieve as well. Um, you know, I can also do particularly. Oh, I know I was going to say too with the strip, try to be consistent. If you’re covering a pool and you know, the idea with Spey fishing in general is water coverage. And when you’re doing it right, you’re making a cast across flies, swinging out, you know, just in standard Spey casting and Spey fishing flies going to swing out. It’s going to hang below you. You’re going to make another cast, you’re going to step down one or two steps, and you’re going to just kind of keep repeating that process. And what that does is allows for complete coverage of the pool. So you’re kind of gridding out the pool in this step by step approach. When you’re stripping the fly, though, you’re kind of changing how you’re covering that water because you’re not just swinging all the way across. So when I’m covering a pool with a strip approach, I’m going to try to keep that, um, cadence fairly, um, consistent all the way through that pool so that I’m really not missing. So if you made one cast and you let the fly just swing, then you make another cast and you strip the fly pretty quick. You’re kind of disturbing this idea of creating a grid and you’re going to miss, you know, some of that pool. So I guess the, you know, the, the conclusion there is just when you’re using that strip technique, try to keep it consistent throughout. When you’re covering a particular pool or area so that you’re making sure you’re covering all the water, um, you can go back, you know, maybe hit it again with a different approach, different strip, different strip cadence. Um, but for the most part, I think that’s how I think of it anyways is I want to get that complete water coverage. So when I’m fishing, you know, one pool, one run, I’m going to try to keep that, that strip cadence pretty consistent. The other approach that I’ll use with the, uh, with the streamer is to just use a pulse. So instead of stripping the fly, I’ll just pull my right hand back and forth. So by pulling it back, it’s going to speed the fly up a little bit, make a jump, you know, depending on how the fly is designed, it might, you know, make it dart, you know, from side to side. And then I’ll just release that and let it go back. So it’s just a, you know, kind of pumping the rod, pulsing the rod. It’s going to give the fly just more of an animated look in the water. And I think that can be very effective as well. It’s a little more subtle in the strip, but um, and it works really well if you’re just covering bigger water or you’re making the cast across and letting the fly swing across, just adding that additional pulse gives it a little more activity. Maybe it’ll, you know, gain a fish’s attention as it’s swinging across. I’ll also try like a strip and release or I’ll strip the fly, uh, and then just release that line back and let that place, you know, sink back similar to the pulse really. Um, but it can kind of the nice thing about it, it gives you just a little more variability in being able to strip that hard with a, you know, really a sharp movement that can make that fly, jump and move a little bit more than just the, the pulse approach. And then one other approach that I’ll use from time to time is just using a jigging, uh, approach by just simply moving the rod tip up and down. And I’ll use this in situations where I really want to cover the bottom of the water column, um, or even, you know, run a fly pretty close to the, the bottom. I mean, you can do this technique maybe with a, um, you know, a crayfish type pattern, something like that. Or you can even extend it past flies that look like bait and bait fish and go to, you know, again, a crayfish pattern or, you know, a leech or something along that line. Um, you know, I’ll tie these flies with a, is the dumbbell eyes so that the hook point rides up and you can just kind of work that fly along the bottom, kind of just making it just jump off the bottom with a jigging action. So you’re just reaching out using the rod tip. Um, you’re going to keep that rod tip a lot higher than you will with when you’re swinging a streamer. When I’m swinging a streamer, my rod tip is low, you know, right near the water. I want to keep everything tight so I can feel everything, uh, you know, so when a fish grabs. I’m in a good position for a strip set. I always want a strip set. These fish, uh, when they grab, um, never ride set. You’re going to get a much more direct connection with the strip set, but with the jigging approach, that rod tip is going to be up and, um, we’re at about a forty five degree angle and just raising the rod tip up and down will give that fly, that jigging action. You will rely on more of a rod set here. A fish grabs, you’ll feel that you know, the tightness of the grab. Um, you know, you’ll just need to use the rod to, you know, make the, uh, but you can also, you know, involve the hand a little bit in terms of strip set as well to try to add some extra tension, but, um, jigging approach can be really good, really effective, you know, especially covering, I found it better and, you know, covering bigger to moderate size rivers and, um, you know, more in a maybe non typical streamer condition time, you know, where maybe the water is a little bit clearer, you know, you don’t have that the stain of the rise or the stain of the fall. Um, but, and I’ll go with a little longer tippet section in this situation to maybe extend it out to about six feet or so, something along that line. So again, just a, another approach. So really again, to summarize there, when I’m streamer fishing, I think in terms of being much more active with the fly than when I’m fishing for steelhead or salmon, or I’m usually using a straight swing here, I’m going to be animating that fly, adding action. Um, you know, I’ve written a few articles on, on that as well. I think on in the, um, Swing the Fly website and you can find, find those articles. And also in my book, Modern Spey Fishing, I talk quite a bit about how to animate that fly. And um, you know, it’s just a really good thing to add to your repertoire to be able to have that while you’re spey fishing, to be able to add some action to the fly. You know, we do that a lot when we’re, you know, fishing for other fish, you know, subsurface. And, um, there’s no reason why it can’t be part of your Spey fishing repertoire. So that’s really my approach to the presentation aspect of it. A little more, little more activity, you know, being added. Um, as far as flies go, there’s really, I, you know, I’ve mentioned a few different things about flies throughout so far, but my materials for the most part, and I don’t think it’s too much different than when I’m, you know, tying flies for steelhead and trout, but I really like movement and all of my. Streamer Spey flies will see that, you know, demonstrate that. Um, so I like rabbit strip marabou, uh, Arctic fox, um, ostrich herl, you know, um, you know, saddle hackle things that when it’s in the water looks like it’s swimming. Looks like it’s moving. Um, I’ll use some, you know, jointed or articulated flies to, to get more of a, you know, more of a swimming action in the fly so that the, the tail and the head section can kind of move independently and look like a, you know, look like a bait, you know, that swimming in the water. So those are really what I think about in terms of materials, something that moves, you know, I’ll use some brushes as well. Um, some small game changers, you know, whether you tie those out of, um, you know, synthetic brushes or even out of, uh, a hand saddle or things like that nature, those make really good flies. So think of something that flies that look good in the water, uh, that look like bait, that swim and, you know, for just straight swinging flies. I like flies that have movement on their own. So a lot of times that’s just rabbit stripper, marabou. And for flies where I’m going to add animation or add action like I do, you know, quite often, um, I like flies that kind of stay together so that when you strip them, they still, they’re not pulsing too much where the materials aren’t flaring out and then settling in. I like that fly to kind of keep its general profile and look even when it’s being stripped. And if you can design some flies that. So when you strip them, they kind of dart and move from side to side. That can be a real advantage as well. So I really, you know, flies that have bulkier heads so that they can get that, you know, kind of, uh, you know, erratic movement when you strip the fly really just gives that fly the, the look that it’s vulnerable, you know, something that’s going to interest a predator for sure. So I, my fly sizes, I, I touched upon that earlier, um, really going to be matched by the, you know, size of the water. Um, but more on the conditions. So when we have these stained water events, water on the rise, water dropping after it’s been dirty, definitely using bigger flies. And I would say the probably about four inches, about the largest fly that I’ve kind of comfortable casting. Um, and that’s certainly big enough to catch, you know, it’s proven big enough to catch some of the biggest fish in the waters that I use this technique in. So I think in terms of, you know, trying to keep those flies so that they’re showing those nice profile in the water, but at the same time aren’t so big and bulky and water resistant that they become too difficult to cast. So again, something in that four inch range, I like flies that have some weight to them. So I usually have some dumbbell eyes in there. And really the reason for the dumbbell eyes is just to get that fly down as soon as it hits the water. I have, like I mentioned earlier, just caught a number of fish where I’ll drop a fly in close to a structural element, make a strip or two, and a fish is right on it. And I think a lot of that has to do with kind of getting that fly down quickly so that the fish can see it and get it in its strike zone as quickly as possible. So something that’s going to float, you know, on the on the surface or hit the water and not go down into the depths right away, I think is at a disadvantage. At least that’s been my experience. So and again, you know, the have the the bigger flies and flies with weight on them using the, uh, sustained anchor cast to be able to, to deliver those is really a, you know, key part of it. Um, but when the water gets lower and clearer, I have no problem with really going smaller on my flies. And, um, you know, I’ve done pretty well on really tiny streamers at times. Um, streamers that might only be, you know, an inch or two to in length, really low profile, um, you know, like a pine squirrel leech or something along that line. Something that still has some movement looks good in the water, you know, small little, you know, little leech patterns still look good in the water. Um, look lively, but are downsized, you know, and again, maybe fishing those off of a slightly lighter tippet and fluorocarbon. But, uh, yeah, I definitely have seen that correlation. The clearer that water gets, you know, for me anyways, the, you know, those bigger flies become less and less effective. There’s always a chance. Um, and again, you know, using lower light and things like that, when the, uh, when the water really gets clear can be a big advantage. I think that’s mainly my approach to this. And, uh, you know, touched upon the, the, the higher points. It is something that can take some time to. Oh, and the one other, the one other thing that I’ve done a little bit about and a little bit and I’m going to do more and kind of plays into this is just using some mouse patterns, you know, mainly at night. You know, I’ve done some during the day, particularly, you know, in Alaska, um, using a, you know, streamer Spey approach with mouse patterns on the surface. Um, I’ve done a little bit of it at night and it’s something that, uh, you know, I plan to do more of in the future. So another area that you can use this, just be very careful. If your Spey casting at night, you just have to be very cognizant of where you’re setting up your anchor point so that you, uh, don’t put yourself in harm when you’re making your cast. But that’s mainly my approach. I, you know, I tried to break it down here, make it as simple as possible. Hopefully, you know, this gives you some guidance on how to go about this. Um, like I said, I’ve written a number of articles, you know, along these lines on trout space dreamers Spey, um, really good section about it in my book modern Spey fishing. Um, I really go into depth, um, you know, on the approach and the rigging and whatnot. Um, I think it’s something that, you know, really takes some time to put all the pieces together And, um, you know, we’re also we’re finding the right conditions, I think is critical to having great days with this approach, but it is also something that you can blend into your, just your general trout fishing. Like I said, it’s something that you can use for a couple hours if you’re on a, on maybe on a dry fly trip, but you want to get out a couple hours in the morning and swing some streamers before the dry fly activity starts. It’s a really good way to kind of blend that in to a trip. Um, you know, I’ve, I’ve gone both approaches here where I’ll just, you know, specifically go out with streamer Spey in mind trying to, you know, tie my outings with the right conditions, but also take the, the, uh, the trout spey rods on any trout trips that I go on and, uh, just have them available so that if the conditions, right conditions come up or you just want to try it in low light periods, you know, perfect combination. So I, uh, you know, if anybody has any questions, you know, about, about this approach, uh, you certainly can reach out to me through Instagram or Facebook, uh, or, you know, through my website, Rick dot com. Uh, I appreciate, um, you know, you listening to the podcast and, uh, next episode of hunting with the fly. We’ll have a guest. I, I, uh, anticipate it’ll be Matt Krajewski and we’ll be talking about, uh, you know, his fly designs for Muskie and for trout. So some of that would apply to this as well. So I appreciate you listening. And until next time, this is, uh, Rick signing off and hunting with apply hunting with the fly podcast. And we’ll see you next time.