888 | Panfish on the Fly with Bart Lombardo

WFS 888 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: Fly fishing doesn’t always get easier as you gain experience. Sometimes it gets heavier, more flies, more gear, more decisions before stepping out on the water. Today’s episode pushes the opposite direction. We’re talking about fly fishing that fits into real life fishing close to home, fishing after dinner, fishing with a handful of flies in your pocket instead of going with all the full monty. Today we’re going to dig into why panfish have quietly become some of the best teachers in fly fishing, how they help flatten the learning curve for new anglers, and why even experienced fly fishers keep coming back to them year after year. This is the Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Bart Lombardo is here today and we’re going to talk about panfish. We’re going to talk about warm water fish including bluegill, pumpkin seed, crappie, and many other great panfish out there. We’re going to find out what it takes to get the job done and why he keeps coming back again and again. Plus, you also find out how presentation matters more than pattern y. Surface takes are part of the story. We’re going to get into the surface fishing these guys and how simplicity can bring it all back in. Fly fishing. All right here we go. You can find Bart Lombardo at Panfish on the fly. Com. Here he is. Bart Lombardo. How are you doing, Bart? 00:01:21 Bart: I’m doing well. And you? 00:01:22 Dave: Good? Yeah. It’s been a little while since we had our last, um, you know, chat. I think we got to go back to, like, November or twenty one. So, um, you know, we did on that, I think kind of an intro to panfish. You’ve got obviously panfish on the fly. We’re going to be talking about, um, some species today, you know, kind of why would people want to get into it? Why are why do people love this species? We’re going to get into that. But maybe take us back a little bit. We’re not going to go into the full. We’ll have a link to the past episode we did, but give us a little update, like where you’re at now and kind of what’s keeping you busy, you know, throughout the year. 00:01:54 Bart: Well, um, not a whole lot has changed. I’m still, you know, I’ve been enjoying retirement. Now I think I’m in my, uh, my thirteenth year. Wow. And, uh. Yeah. And since retiring is, um. That’s when I started my guiding career. So, you know, I’ve been at that for well over a decade now and thoroughly enjoying that, um, in the last couple years. Um, it’s really just been business as usual. I think, uh, the last time we spoke, I had mentioned I was, uh, in the process of writing a book. Um, that book was completed, but unfortunately, the project was dropped by my publisher. So I’m actually, um, in conversation now with, uh, some other folks. Um, and hopefully we’ll see that book get published. 00:02:42 Dave: Um, yeah. What was the name of that book? 00:02:44 Bart: Well, the original title was, um, panfish on the Fly Fly Fishing for America’s Favorite Gamefish. And we’ll see where it goes. Um, with, uh, if it does get picked up by a new publisher. There may be some, uh, some changes made to it. I have some ideas for some changes that were, um, the previous publisher I was working with had some very definitive ideas for the book, and, um, you know, some of that I may be looking to change, but I’m hopeful that we’ll we’ll see this get, uh, picked up by another publisher. And if not, there’s always a self-publishing route. 00:03:22 Dave: So, yeah, definitely. Self-publishing is. Are there many books out there on the same subject out there? 00:03:28 Bart: There are relatively few, um, on on the subject. And that was one of the reasons that I chose to write in that space. 00:03:37 Speaker 3: Right, right. 00:03:38 Bart: I’m hopeful that, uh, we’ll we’ll finally see this, uh, get out on the, uh, the newsstands, so to speak. Um, so again, probably another year or so down the road, uh, with that, uh, we did like I said, I did have that little hiccup, but, um, things are, uh, once again moving in a positive direction. 00:03:57 Dave: So good. Good. Well, that’ll be great. Bye. We’ll have. Once it comes out. We’ll make sure to add a link to the notes here on that. But I think that is interesting. You know I think this is a species. We’ve well multiple species. Right. I think what we’re going to talk about that we’re going to get into some tips and tricks on fishing for all of them, but maybe talk about that. Why is you know it, you know, why would you want to fish for these species? Right? We’re talking bluegill all the all these different, you know, various species. Why do you think this is such a key? A good species on the fly. 00:04:28 Bart: Well, that is an excellent question. And it gives me an opportunity to, uh, you know, explain my, uh, fascination, if you would, with these fish. Um, I am, as I, uh, kind of alluded to, um, you know, for the last twelve, thirteen years, I’ve been, uh, a fly fishing guide, uh, formally for a fly shop in new Jersey that was called Shannon’s Flying Tackle, Unfortunately, several years ago, uh, the owner, Jim Holland, had had passed away and the shop was repurchased by a, uh, a great young couple. Um, and it’s been rebranded as South Branch Outfitters that still resides in the same location as the original shop. And I’ve been, uh, guiding for them since they opened their doors. And one of the things that I realized, um, you know, one interesting thing about where I live, I live in the state of new Jersey. And while we have some outstanding, uh, trout fishing opportunities in the state, we’re not what you would consider a destination fishery. You know, people aren’t traveling to new Jersey to fish for trout like they would in places like Montana or Wyoming or Colorado. 00:05:47 Speaker 3: Or even what about. 00:05:48 Dave: Like, say, New York, right? Like up, up north. 00:05:50 Bart: In New York. Right. Um, two, two and a half hours away from, you know, one of the the best trout rivers in the country, that being the upper Delaware system. Uh, you know, both the East and the West Branch of Delaware. So new Jersey is not a destination fishery. So, you know, what does a fly fishing guide do in a state like new Jersey? Now, I have, over the years, guided my share of extremely talented anglers. Uh, and some of those were traveling anglers that may have been in the state for business. Um, but by and large, most of my clientele are folks that are new to the sport. They’re new anglers, um, individuals, both men and women that want to get involved in fly fishing and, you know, made the decision to, you know, book a guide to kind of give them a head start. So one of the things that I specialize in is working with brand new anglers, folks that have, you know, they maybe they’ve never fished at all, or maybe they’ve fished with conventional gear for most of their lives and now want to switch over to fly fishing. So as someone in that position, I learned pretty quickly that there is a definite learning curve when it comes to, you know, picking up a fly rod for the first time and, you know, becoming proficient with it. And trout are not necessarily the best, um, the best fish to learn on, uh, as you know, they, you know, they have their idiosyncrasies that can make them, uh, quite difficult at times. And that’s one of the reasons why we love them, because they offer this great challenge to to anglers. So I kind of by I mean just looking the way that I learned and, um, you know, I’ve always been a warm water junkie. I love, you know, fishing for warm water fish of all types. Um, you know, not just panfish, but also larger predators like bass and pike and muskie. And, um, I have always found that these fish, for a number of reasons, um, are usually easier targets for new anglers. You know, for example, you make a sloppy cast on a on a trout stream. You could put down every fish in the pool, maybe for an hour or more. Uh, you make a loud cast on a bass pond and you’ve just rang the dinner bell. Everything in the vicinity is looking up, trying to figure out what the hell made that noise, and whether or not they could stick it in their mouths and eat it. So, um, warmwater fish, particularly panfish. Um, I look at these fish as teachers. They are a great way to get involved in the sport of fly fishing. And if I can convince, uh, an angler new to the sport to, you know, spend a couple hours with me on a local warm water pond, fishing for for panfish and, you know, even bass, we can I can almost guarantee that in that first session that they are going to hook fish, that they are going to, you know, learn some line handling skills. Learn how to fight that fish out of the hand. Or or maybe even put a fish on a reel and work with that. All these essential skills that are so important for fly fishing in any venue, whether it’s warm water, cold water or salt water. But, um, it’s done differently in fly fishing than it is in, say, bait casting or spin fishing with, you know, traditional fishing gear. And there’s a learning curve involved with that. If we can flatten out that learning curve on a, you know, on a warm water pond somewhere before we hit the trout stream, those chances of success, they go up tenfold, easily tenfold. You know, nothing is more frustrating than working with a new angler and facing all the challenges that you do with finicky lane feeding fish that require very precise presentations. And finally, the stars align and you get a fish to eat. And now you realize that we’ve never really had, you know, discussed what to do next. 00:09:46 Dave: What to do next. Right. 00:09:47 Bart: You know, there’s the hookset, right? There’s line management, there’s playing the fish. Um, and we can work out all those kinks on the on that local bluegill pond before we hit the trout stream. So that’s one of the reasons that I really emphasize these fish and why I have focused on these fish. And, you know, any of the public appearances that I do say, you know, area fly fishing shows, which, you know, I’m right in the middle of a very busy season right now. 00:10:15 Dave: Um, oh, right. Yeah. Show season. 00:10:17 Bart: Yep. So, uh, I’m pretty active on the show circuit, at least here on the East Coast. So, um, usually January through March. Um, you know, every weekend takes me in a different spot. 00:10:29 Dave: Ah. Do you do all the shows? Are you around doing all the fly? 00:10:32 Bart: All I do, um, right now, it’s, um, I’m just limiting myself to the East Coast stuff, so, um, like, for example, the fly fishing show circuit. Uh, in January, I did Marlborough, Massachusetts, Edison, new Jersey. I got Lancaster, Pennsylvania coming up. Um, I was down in Virginia for their fly fishing and wine festival, and I. I have about a half a dozen, uh, more shows to do. Oh, wow. The season ends, so. 00:10:57 Dave: Yeah, you do a bunch. What do you cover when you do those shows? You must. You have a number of different presentations or what are your topics usually? 00:11:04 Bart: Well, I do try for most of these shows to kind of stay in that, um, that warm water space and talking about exactly what we talk about now, um, and talking about the joys of fly fishing for, um, for panfish. There are a lot of, uh, closet panfish junkies out there that I have learned. 00:11:27 Dave: Right. That’s a good question. Is it is it, um, is it just for the beginner, or are there people out there that maybe have experience already with the fly, but they still would enjoy going for these guys? 00:11:39 Bart: One hundred percent, yes it is. There are definitely a lot of, um, experience long time anglers That, um, still pursue these fish, and it’s done for a number of reasons. I mean, you know, when you’re out, when I find myself out on a on a trout stream, it really is a it’s a thinking man’s game, which is part of what I enjoy about it, trying to, you know, crack the code, figure out what’s going on and, and get these fish to eat. And I think warm water fishing kind of resets the clock. It allows you to get out there. Um, when we’re talking about fish like panfish and real quick, uh, what do I mean by panfish? Right. Yeah. Predominantly, uh, members of the sunfish family, um, excluding large and smallmouth bass and some of the others, although, yeah, some of the other bass species, especially some of the smaller, uh, river bass species that, uh, you know, reside in the southern portion of this country. These are smaller fish that would be kind of technically be. Yeah. We’ve talked about them as panfish. Yeah. Like, um, the bass and the red eyes and things like that definitely would, um, fall into that category. But when I talk about panfish, I, um, talking to, you know, members of the sunfish family, the the bluegills, the pumpkin seeds, the redbreast. I mean, there’s, um, many species of, of sunfish that are found throughout the country. Depending on where you live in the United States, um, you’ll encounter one or more of these fish and that also, um, you can extend that list to, you know, include crappies, which are also members of that, uh, sunfish family. And then getting outside of the sunfish family, you have, um, you know, fish like a yellow perch, white perch. Um, you know, there’s yellow bass, white bass. All these fish kind of fall into this category of smaller warm water or cool water, um, freshwater fish. And and so the term panfish kind of addresses all of these species collectively, and the one thing that they all have in common is they are extremely easy to target with a fly, which makes them so appealing. And there is a lot of joy that can be taken from these fish. Um, they provide a different fly fishing experience, but a very enjoyable fly fishing experience all the same. So, uh, we did a kind of a roundabout to answer that question, but yes, there are a lot of experienced anglers, including people like myself, that, um, enjoy targeting these fish and do it on a regular basis. 00:14:28 Dave: Should be doing it. What is are the the techniques for any species, or are they going to be similar for most of these species? Talk about that. What do you think are the around the country maybe start in your area, the northeast part of the US? What do you think are the top species and are the techniques the same for all of them? 00:14:43 Bart: Yeah. And that’s, um, the really the fish are very similar. Um, whether you’re talking about, you know, a bluegill or a pumpkin seed up here in the northeast or a, um, maybe a long year out in the Midwest or, you know, um, down in the South, uh, maybe we’d be talking about flyers or shell crackers. Um, they’re for the most part, the fish are very similar in their diets and feeding habits. Although some fish, like I think I just mentioned a shell cracker. It is a a sunfish. But it’s it focuses its feeding on the bottom. You know, it eats snails and other mollusks and crayfish and things that are found close to the bottom. They will come up and feed on the surface occasionally, but they feed lower in the water column. And what makes all the rest of the sunfish so appealing to fly rodders is they love to eat off the surface. So you know whether I’m throwing flies for bluegills and pumpkin seeds here in the northeast, or Long Ears on a creek out in the Midwest. The fish are going to act very, very similar. They look very different in appearance, but their feeding habits, um, are pretty similar. They may, you know, they may prefer, uh, different types of environments to live in. But by and large, the fish are all very similar. So, you know, if you’ve mastered fishing for them here in the northeast, you could take those skills and bring them anywhere. 00:16:13 Dave: Check out Montana Fly Fishing Lodge, a twenty twenty four Orvis endorsed Lodge of the year finalist, where luxury meets adventure on one point five miles of private wild and scenic East Rosebud River frontage. Experience world class fly fishing on numerous Yellowstone Basin streams. Gourmet cuisine made from locally sourced ingredients and rustic luxury accommodations. Surrounded by breathtaking wilderness. You can book your all inclusive Montana Fly fishing adventure today and discover why they are the premier destination for unforgettable fishing experiences, head over to Montana Fly Fishing Lodge right now. When it comes to high quality flies that truly elevate your fly fishing game drift. Com is the trusted source you need. I’ve been using drift hooks, expertly selected flies for a while now, and they never disappoint. Plus, they stand behind their products with a money back guarantee. Are you ready to upgrade your fly box? Head over to Drift Hook com today and use the code at checkout to get fifteen percent off your first order. That’s drift hook. Don’t miss out. And it seems like bluegill. Bluegill is one that we always hear, you know, kind of out there first. Is that one do you know the the distribution of where they’re found around the country? 00:17:27 Bart: Well, it’s not just around the country, it’s around the world. These fish have been, um, been stocked, you know, north, south, east, west and across the oceans. Um, they have a worldwide Distribution. And, you know, unfortunately, because they are a very prolific species and a lot of places overseas where they’ve been introduced, they’re, uh, they’re treated like an invasive species because they do have a tendency to outcompete local species. So they’re not exactly welcome in all the places they’ve ended up. But, um, one of the reasons that they’ve been spread so far and wide is that they are a companion species or a prey species that’s often stocked alongside, um, you know, larger, more popular predator species like, uh, largemouth bass, smallmouth bass, northern pike, you know, where where the largemouth bass has traveled throughout the country through, you know, both formal and informal stocking programs. The bluegill has been right alongside it as its, uh, you know, predominant prey species. So when when these fish, larger fish like bass are stocked, they are often stocked alongside, um, smaller members of the sunfish family like bluegill. So that’s one of the reasons why, you know, their range has been so widely spread so they can be found just about anywhere. 00:18:51 Dave: They’re everywhere. Yeah, that’s great because I know I mean, they’re pretty common and yeah, lots of ponds. I mean, they’re obviously a warm water fish, but, you know, on the West Coast and yeah, all around the world. But they’re but they’re a good species to catch. Right. Because it you know and remind us again on that they stock them with another species. And why is that done. 00:19:10 Bart: They they’re often stocked alongside species like largemouth bass. And they’re basically stocked as a food source for these larger predators. 00:19:16 Dave: Oh, there you go. So. Right. 00:19:18 Bart: Yeah, there’s a predator prey relationship that exists between a lot of members of the sunfish family and the larger predators that they’re found alongside. 00:19:27 Dave: Okay, cool. I think this is great. I think this is a good start to where we’re going here. Maybe talk about, let’s just say somebody probably, you know, is either new or maybe they have the gear or they have a trout gear, but maybe they want to take, you know, they want to go out and do this, or maybe they want to bring a friend or a family member out to do this. What is the typical give us? Go into the gear a little bit. What do we need here. What’s a good rod weight and all that stuff. 00:19:51 Bart: So the good news is, um, most trout equipment that you have will serve at least in the beginning. Um, it’s totally adequate for fishing for these fish. Um, let’s say that a, you know, an eight and a half, nine foot five weight is the essential trout rod. You know, that’s a great outfit. Whether you’re fishing, you know, new Jersey streams, uh, whether I’m down, uh, in the Midwest or, or out West at five weight is a very versatile tool. It works very well for a wide range of, uh, you know, trout across the country. Um, now, that rod may be a little on the heavy side for these fish. Um, they do fight for their size, I think. Pound for pound. Um, I don’t think there’s many fish out there where stronger. In fact, I think if a fish like a bluegill grew to ten pounds, um, the word trout would never cross our lips because I don’t think. No kidding. Waste their time with them. Yeah, they are literally, you know, for their size. Um, and they’re willing to willingness to eat flies. Um. They’re hard. They check all the boxes, they’re hard fighting. They’re readily accessible. Um, you know, they’re they’re excellent eating. If you were, uh, into taking a few fish for the table, um, you know, they check a lot of boxes for me. The ideal panfish rod. I like a four weight, which is also a fine trout rod. So, you know, if your first trout rod was, uh, you know, an eight and a half, nine foot four weight, you got an ideal panfish rod there as well. Um, we could certainly go lower. Um, three weeks, two weeks, even one weights. These smaller fish are an absolute blast on these, uh, these rods. But one of the reasons why I kind of settled into that four weight category is if you look at some of the flies that we fish, even though these these fish are, are smaller than a lot of the trout that we catch, the flies that we use to fish for are, are actually larger. They’re they’re less aerodynamic. You know, these are maybe bugs made of foam or small cork poppers or hair bugs. When you think about it, they’re not exactly the the easiest flies to cast on. Um, on really super light rods. So that that for weight gives me a good balance of still being light enough to appreciate the fight of these fish, but being heavy enough to throw, uh, you know, a two fly popper dropper rig or or a slightly larger fly. A lot of my panfish flies tend to be a little larger than than most anglers throw for these fish, for the reasons that, you know, there’s other fish that occupy the water that sunfish do. And that’s these larger predators that we alluded to before. So if I could throw a fly that’s still small enough to be taken by, say, a large bluegill, but it’s large enough to interest a predator species like a largemouth bass, then I have an opportunity to add a lot of excitement to my fishing day. You know, catching a three or four pound largemouth on a four weight, you know, this, that just annihilated your your top water popper. It’s a blast. I don’t think there’s many things more exciting in fly fishing than that. 00:23:09 Dave: That’s cool. And is it top water. Is that with with bluegill specifically? Is is top water typically what you’re going to be doing or with any of these? 00:23:18 Bart: Not typically, but they do adorn a warmer months of the year. These fish love to eat on top. And who doesn’t like to take of a fish on a on a dry fly or a floating fly pattern? It’s so much more exciting than targeting fish subsurface. but like other species, um, these fish do the majority of their feeding. Below the surface, especially the the larger specimens. So a well-rounded, warmwater angler. Well-rounded. Angler that’s targeting panfish. You’re going to want to be able to fish that water column. Top to bottom, especially if you’re fishing on some of those shoulder seasons where, uh, you know. The warm days of spring and summer, the fishing can be extremely easy. And, you know, all you need is. A half a dozen flies and a sucrets tin tucked away in a shirt pocket. And you can enjoy an entire afternoon on the water. When we start fishing. Early season, late fish, uh, late season. Um, then the fish are not as willing to, uh, you know, feed on the surface. So subsurface presentations are going to be the way. 00:24:22 Dave: So color is a little bit colder down. How does that work. Water temperature. Yeah. 00:24:26 Bart: Yeah a lot has to do with water temperature sunlight penetration. Um so during the cooler times of year. Um, these fish will, um, you’ll need to target them below the surface. And even during the, you know, the dog days of summer when we’re out there in the middle of August and, you know, daytime highs are a hundred degrees, these fish still feed during the day. They’ll be more active at dusk and dawn. But, uh, if you wanted to target them during the day, you’re going to have to go deep for them. You know, they’re not willing to to come up to the surface. And those those warm temperatures. 00:25:00 Dave: Wow. That’s cool. Well, when you’re looking at the top, let’s just take it to that top water piece. What is the maybe describe first what would be a common pattern and then talk about how you’re fishing. Is this just cast out and popping it back or how are you doing it. 00:25:12 Bart: Sure. So um, again, good news for trout anglers. All those pretty trout dry flies. Uh, they’ll all work for for panfish as well. These fish feed on a variety of terrestrial and aquatic organisms. And I think that’s one of the neat things, especially if you’re a fly tyer. Um, Time flies for warm water fish. You can really stretch that imagination. Yeah, you can go crazy. Um, you know, when we talk about trout flies, uh, you know, like any any flies, they’re either imitative or attractive in nature. Um, and trout fishing really tends to focus on the imitative. We’re trying to, you know, quote unquote, match the hatch. Um, and the great thing about warmwater fishing, because these fish are, are, you know, they’re subjected to so many different items on the menu. Um, you know, we can we can target them with a wide range of variety of flies. Flies that imitate, uh, things that they’re used to eating, um, you know, like aquatic insects, like damselflies, dragonflies, both, you know, their, their larval forms beneath the surface and the winged adults when they’re, when they’re found on the water. All manners of terrestrial insects. Beetles, Ants. Hoppers. Crickets. Moths. You know, you think about all the things that are flying around in the air. They, at some point or another, end up in the water. And then there’s the, uh, the oddball stuff. Um, these fish are attracted to movement. They’re attracted to color. Uh, if something looks alive, they’re going to sample it, even though they’ve never seen it before. Which kind of, uh, coming full circle. One of my favorite, uh, warm water flies is a fly that that I developed. Um, and it was developed for one reason and one reason only, and that is to keep small mouthed sunfish from swallowing the fly. One of the hazards, if you would, of fishing for these fish is that they do have relatively small mouths, but they have this tendency to, um, their eyes are bigger than their mouths. You know, they will try and cram just about anything they can in those tiny mouths and, uh, they have a tendency to take flies deeply on occasion. So I developed a fly called the triangle bug, which is basically just a floating triangle of foam with a simple tail and some rubber legs. And the sole reason that shape exists is to keep smallmouth panfish from swallowing the fly. It doesn’t necessarily imitate anything in nature. They, um, they eat it regularly, and the design of the fly works perfectly. Um, it allows the fish to take these flies off the surface, but prevents them from swallowing the fly too deeply. So it’s an oddball fly. And, you know, the fly has been around for a long time, and, um. 00:28:09 Dave: Is it green? Typically? 00:28:11 Bart: Um, no. I tied in a whole variety of colors. Um, but that kind of chartreuse green is certainly a favorite of mine. 00:28:18 Dave: Okay. Are there any colors that they really love or is it kind of everything? 00:28:22 Bart: It’s kind of everything. And, uh, one day could be different from the next. So, uh, when it comes to, you know, trying to they’re not as finicky as as trout are. And that’s one of the things why there’s such a great fish to learn how to fly fish on, because they’re not concerned with your sloppy cast. In fact, your sloppy cast may actually attract more fish than deter them in that environment. And, um, you know, there are times that they could get selective, especially, uh, the larger mature fish. Everything that swims in a warm water environment has a fish like a bluegill on its menu at some point in its life, whether we’re talking about insect larvae like dragonflies to, you know, um, other larger predators like bass and pike and pickerel and even their own kind, um, you know, adult bluegills, um, species like crappie, which are notorious minnow and small fish eaters, um, you know, immature juvenile sunfish are on everyone’s menu. So for a fish to get large for, a bluegill to reach that trophy size of say, you know, eleven, twelve, thirteen inches that fish has to be doing something very different from the rank and file to get to that size. 00:29:37 Dave: Right? What is that bluegill doing to get to the thirteen inches differently? 00:29:41 Bart: Well, it’s not being as carefree, uh, as its younger siblings. Um, it’s learned through trial and error that, um, the world’s a dangerous place, and it has to adjust its behavior a little bit to survive. So if you’re looking for challenges in, um, in this arena of panfish on the fly, then targeting these large, mature fish outside of the spawn, um, because during the spawn, just like many fish, uh, they tend to lose a lot of their inhibitions and become fairly easy to catch. But, uh, at other times of the year. 00:30:16 Dave: When is the spawn? 00:30:18 Bart: Um, it will vary based on, you know, what part of the country you live in. 00:30:22 Dave: Let’s say in new Jersey. Let’s just say in your area. 00:30:25 Bart: It’s probably better to think about water temps. So when that when that water temp gets into the, um, the high sixties, uh, approaching seventy degrees, uh, regardless of where you are in the country, that’s when these fish, um, typically begin their spawning activity. Um, there is a pre-spawn period when they start to move into the shallows as the water begins to warm. And, you know, during that time they’re feeding pretty aggressively because they’re, you know, trying to build up those energy stores for the rigors of spawning. Um, and then during the spawn itself, they are extremely easy to catch. And the reason is, is because unlike many other species, uh, members of the sunfish family are, are actually pretty good parents. Um, they build nests, they stay on the nests, and they protect the nests while the eggs are developing, and then they even stay on for a short period of time after the fry is. They’ve hatched to protect those, um, those juvenile fish, and they’re very aggressive in their protection efforts. Um, you know, I’ve seen these, you know, mature bluegills try and, you know, run off twenty pound carp that are feeding near their edges. I’ve seen them run off largemouth bass, you know, four or five, six times their size. Um, they exhibit very little fear when they’re on the nests and protecting them, which, to their fault, makes them very easy to catch. Um, and many anglers that target panfish target sunfish with a fly rod. Many of them only do it during that vulnerable time of year, and it makes for some fantastic fishing. Um, but maybe not the most challenging fishing. Um. 00:32:08 Dave: Could you get them on poppers, then you get them or not? Poppers. But you can get them on. 00:32:10 Bart: Yeah. No, that’s one of the times that we could take them, um, on, uh, the water’s warm enough that time that they’re feeding in the water column, top to bottom. Uh, so fishing a surface fly over their their beds. They are colonial nesters, so you know they don’t. It’s just not a single nest here. Single nest. They’re like, say, a largemouth bass. These fish will nest in colonies. So if you find one nesting fish, you’re likely to find dozens in the vicinity. Um, and when they are in there, they will feed, you know, they’ll they’ll attack anything that comes near the nest, whether it’s on the surface, whether it’s, uh, you know, below. And certainly a subsurface fly that’s dropped on their nests will be immediately attacked and picked up. 00:32:50 Dave: Is the triangle is a triangle fly a a a subsurface or a top water? 00:32:54 Bart: It is a surface pattern. Yeah. It’s a top water fly. The triangle bug is a is a simple foam top water bug. Um, and as I mentioned, uh, the whole reason that fly exists is just to prevent small mouth panfish from swallowing it. Um, we could draw a lot of conclusions to what they may think it is. Um, but personally, I never cared. It doesn’t matter if they’re willing to eat a fly. Um, I’ll just take that at its face value. And that’s good enough for me. 00:33:22 Dave: Yeah. Okay, so that’s the time. So when the water temperature gets warm, they’ll get even more active. But you can. The cool thing is that it sounds like throughout the year you can catch them. Where would be. How do you find where they are? Is it pretty much, you know, any pond or what do you think? Like if somebody is thinking, okay, I want to go find these guys, where do they start? 00:33:39 Bart: Yeah. Well, the great thing about them is they’re found everywhere. Um, whether it’s, uh, you know, uh, a local farm pond, maybe a county or city park pond, um, they’re found in, uh, moving water as well. They tend to prefer little slower currents, although there are some fish species, like, uh, like the redbreast here in new Jersey that is predominantly a river fish. Um, it’s found in most of our trout streams. And, um, you know, they’re a great fish to target in moving water when, uh, maybe it’s a little too warm here in new Jersey during the summer to fish for trout. Um, I can hit the lower ends of these trout streams and target smallmouth bass and the sunfish that live in these streams. So they’re found everywhere. Um, they’re even found in some tidal waters. Um, so there’s probably very few parts of the country where, um, these fish are not within a very short drive. 00:34:37 Dave: We’ve heard many of the stories on this podcast. Togiak River Lodge is one of the great destinations for swinging flies, for Chinook, stripping for coho all day, and unwinding in a lodge right on the riverbank of the Togiak River, with access to all five salmon species plus rainbows, Dolly Varden and more. Togiak offers a true Alaskan experience. Picture over thirty miles of river, seasoned guides, high quality boats and low fishing pressure. It’s fly fishing. Alaska at its best. I’ll be heading up this summer, so reach out to Jordan and the crew to see what dates they have available this year. You can learn more right now at Wet Fly. That’s Togiak. Alaskan fly fishing like you’ve always dreamed about. What are the up up in your area? What do you think? The top few species that you know of, the panfish that you’re hitting. 00:35:31 Bart: In new Jersey? Uh, we have, um, our, our resident native fish is the pumpkinseed sunfish. Uh, the bluegill is probably the most widely spread. And also the redbreast is a native in our, um, you know, in our moving waters, the bluegill was is an introduced species. It was originally. Um. Yeah, absolutely. Um, but they are now found everywhere. 00:35:56 Dave: So they were they were they are an eastern species, but they’re just not all the way out to the coast. 00:36:01 Bart: They weren’t. Yeah, they weren’t originally in Jersey, so. But now they and and their, their history in the state goes back, you know, to colonial times. They, they were one of the first fish that were, you know, transported into other waters. And they are now they they’ve had a footprint in this state for, you know, well over a hundred years, a long time. Um, so they, they, they behave like wild fish. Um, and they’re found everywhere. So, uh, whether it’s a, um, you know, Stillwater, small Stillwater, like park ponds, farm ponds to larger lakes, uh, both natural and man made. Uh, you’re going to find these fish. 00:36:44 Dave: Yeah. And then the pumpkin seed. Talk about that. How are they? How are they different than, say, a bluegill? 00:36:49 Bart: So they’re it’s just a, uh, you know, think rainbow trout and brown trout or, you know, they’re the same family of fish, but a different species. They, uh, they’re different in appearance. Um, they have slight differences in the type of habitat that they prefer, but, um, they behave very similar. And in many watersheds, um, they live side by side, and there’s even some, um, some mixed breeding going on where we get hybrids of, uh, you know, different sunfish species, which sometimes can make identification a little tricky because you may catch a fish that you know is exhibiting characteristics or physical characteristics of, uh, of two species. Uh, we also have in the state, um, green sunfish, which are currently considered a invasive species. They weren’t, uh, stocked through, uh, many official stocking programs. And they, like the other members of the sunfish family, are really prolific, really great at adapting to new environments. And they’ve spread through the state pretty quickly. Um, and again, every fish, uh, they’re similar, but they’re different. You know, they, they all have their, their little things that make them different. You know, green sunfish, for example. They have larger mouths than, um, say a bluegill or a pumpkin seed. So, um, you know, they’re often will take larger flies. One of the downsides with these fish, if they are not properly managed, they do have the propensity to overpopulate and stunt um in certain bodies of water. And green sunfish are notorious for that, where they will quickly, uh, their numbers will quickly increase. Wow. 00:38:38 Dave: Yeah. 00:38:39 Bart: Everything they they eat everything. And they even, you know, stunt their own growth. So without a proper predator prey relationship, uh, these fish can get out of out of control. And, you know, that’s that’s one of the reasons that I think, um, you know, some fishery managers look down on them. Um, but as long as there’s proper predator prey relationships, you know, we have bigger fish that will keep their numbers in check. Um, everything can be a happy balance. 00:39:07 Dave: Yeah, it’s interesting because there’s, like, some overlap, because there are also a species that was historically out somewhere in the East, right. Maybe the Midwest. 00:39:14 Bart: Yeah. And again, all these fish have been, um, you know, they’ve been spread far and wide. Uh, there are local and, you know, small local watersheds, usually privately owned, where the landowner, you know, brought in, you know, sunfish from other parts of the country. And so it’s not unusual to find, uh, you know, find a species that’s from the South or the Midwest and find it in a particular watershed. 00:39:44 Dave: Yeah. Gotcha. Okay, so we going back at the start, we were talking about kind of the kind of the rod, the gear. Anything else we should know about that? Is it just kind of grab a few, grab your triangle fly and go out there. Any other tips you would give somebody if they’re kind of heading out there for the first time? 00:39:58 Bart: Well, um, again, these fish will eat, um, just about anything. So all your trout flies will work, whether they’re, you know, dry flies, wet flies, small streamers. Uh, they they all work. We can tie, uh, specific warm water patterns that imitate, you know, the aquatic life forms that were were apt to find in that warm water environment. Um, to kind of match the hatch, so to speak, for those fish. But the cool thing about these fish, too, is that they’re not, you know, put off by taking that, that oddball fly, you know, something that looks nothing like nature produced. 00:40:34 Dave: Like the fly, the Cheeto fly or stuff like that. Something crazy. 00:40:38 Bart: Exactly, exactly. You know, I’ve. I’ve, um. There’s a pond near my home that has a, uh, a park on it. And, um, young mothers love to bring their toddlers and small children down to the park to feed the ducks. And they, you know, they often, uh, these kids always seem to have Cheerios on them. And, you know, they’re throwing Cheerios in to feed the feed the birds and, uh, the fish figure out pretty easily, pretty quickly that that cheerio is a potential food source. And they they start eating them quicker than the birds do. So on a whim, once I tied a fly. Made to look like a cheerio. Took it down to the pond and instantly caught fish in that particular lake. So, you know, um, you you really. There’s no limit to the type of flies that’ll work. It’s really more about the just like anything else. Um, even in trout fishing, I think that presentation trumps pattern ninety nine percent of the time, you know, and you can extend that that same mindset to these fish as well. You know, if you present a fly that that looks like it’s alive, that looks like it’s something they can eat whether or not they’ve seen it before. That’s one of the great things about these fish. You know, unlike a trout that may not be willing to, you know, come up or take a fly that doesn’t resemble anything that it’s ever seen before. These fish are, uh, they’re a little bit more willing to do that. 00:42:05 Dave: Right, right. Are you stripping in on these guys? Are you kind of like. 00:42:08 Bart: Well, let’s. So let’s talk about presentation. If you were fishing on a Stillwater. Um, you know, a lake or a pond. We don’t we don’t have to, uh, there’s pros and cons to that. You know, we don’t have to manage current. But then on the other part of it, we don’t have current to, you know, manage our flies. Uh, so we have to impart motion to these, um, these flies when they’re on the water. If we’re fishing a a surface pattern, whether it be a dry fly, whether it be, uh, you know, let’s let’s take, um, a dry fly. You know, the most popular dry fly in the world, let’s say a, you know, a parachute. Adams. Uh, it works on a trout stream across the country. It’ll work very well on your local bluegill pond as well. But the problem with that is you. When you cast that fly out on a trout stream, the current takes that fly along and it. You know, as long as you’re managing your drift properly and you don’t have any drag on the fly, you can actually cover a substantial bit of water with that fly, putting it over numerous fish when you present a fly on a Stillwater. That fly is simply just going to rest in place. Um, and you could give it some subtle twitches, but if you twitch a fly like a parachute, Adams too many times it’s going to become waterlogged and it’s going to sink. Um, so that’s why a lot of panfish flies are made out of materials like foam and deer hair, or maybe even, uh, balsa wood in the form of poppers and stuff. So these are flies that could be manipulated on the surface a little bit, but they’re not necessarily, uh, easily waterlogged. Um, and how we manipulate, uh, you’re trying to basically imitate something struggling in the surface film. So usually a couple subtle twitches, um, is all it’s going to take to draw fish’s attention. You know, there are other flies that imitate something moving a little bit more aggressively on the water, like a popper or a slider pattern that you’re going to kind of dance around on the surface to imitate. maybe an injured minnow or some other larger organism that’s struggling in the water. So there’s a lot of different, um, tactics that you can apply to your dry fly fishing when fishing in a warm water environment. Gotcha. But typically we’re going to need to impart some movement if the fly isn’t taken on its initial presentation. Um, then usually there’s a little bit of movement that’s involved to draw fish’s attention to it. And like trout fishing, we’re going to focus on structure and cover in places rather than just blind casting to an open stretch of water present that flies to areas that are likely to hold fish. Um, and like all fish species, you know, fish are attracted to certain types of structure and cover, not only to provide them with the food that they need, but also to provide them from protection from other predators. So you know where you present that fly is often more important than you know how or even what floor you’re presenting. 00:45:11 Dave: Yeah. Where you present. So you’re looking at. Yeah. They’re looking for protection too. So they’re going to be around wood or whatever getting protection. So. Okay. So yeah this is great. I think that um, I think we can kind of start to take it out of here. Um, and just, you know, maybe circle back around to, you know, anything we missed on this? I feel like, again, the great thing about is this simplicity, right? Getting out here, grabbing whatever flies are in your box and going for it. Um, anything else you’d shed light on before we start to take it out of here today? On? I mean. 00:45:38 Bart: Well. 00:45:39 Dave: Yeah. 00:45:40 Bart: I want to go back to the simplicity aspect a little bit more. And I think that’s one of the reasons where these fish are so attractive is that there is a simplicity to it. I think I mentioned earlier, you know, I could I can head out on the water with like a sucrets tin with a half a dozen flies in a shirt pocket, a spool of tippet, and maybe a pair of scissors. Hemostats and be ready for whatever the day brings me. If I step on a trout stream and I don’t have fifteen hundred to three thousand flies in my bag. I feel like I’m not prepared for the day, you know? So there’s definitely a simplicity to this. Um, you know, I could basically, uh, during the warmer times of year, I can spend my day doing whatever I need to do. And then, you know, after dinner, head out the door and be, you know, kicking around in a flow tube or, you know, sitting in my kayak five minutes from my front door and spend the last couple hours of the day, uh, fly fishing. And it’s just a very simple, enjoyable way to to fly fish. 00:46:44 Dave: Yeah. Is a boat recommended or could you just as easily do this off the bank? 00:46:48 Bart: Well, it’s, uh, that’s a kind of a good topic to dive into here, um, where a lot of anglers are. There are certainly a lot of shoreline, uh, opportunities. But, you know, warm water pond is not like a trout stream, a trout stream. You can don a pair of waders or in warmer weather, you know, wet wade, uh, trout streams or firm bottoms. Sometimes little hazardous. You know, with slippery rocks and swift currents. But they’re generally weighable where most warm water, uh, venues are not. Um, most warm water lakes and ponds have soft, muddy bottoms. There’s a lot of aquatic vegetation that gets in your way if you’re going to wade. Now, there are certainly bodies of water with firm bottoms and, you know, great wading opportunities, but that’s not the norm. Um, plus, most warm water ponds and lakes are, you know, surrounded by wooded shorelines. Um, and, you know, unless you master the role cast, traditional fly fishing, uh, could be somewhat difficult if you’ve got trees overhead, trees behind you. So getting off the bank definitely increases your fishing opportunities. And, you know, the great news is it doesn’t have to cost you a lot of money. Um, if you already own a pair of waders, um, or even if you don’t have waders during the warmer months, you know you could pick up a float tube for a couple hundred bucks and have access to smaller bodies of water. Um, for, you know, anywhere between five hundred and. Well, I guess these days, uh, the sky’s the limit with some of the modern kayaks that are out there. But for a little bit more money, you can invest in a, um, you know, a kayak, uh, you can find an old John boat or canoe and a yard sale somewhere, you know, for just a couple dollars. So I do find that if you can get off the bank, um, you’ll find it opens up a lot more fishing opportunities for you, um, when you’re fishing from the shoreline and a lot of these warm water venues finding an open spot that actually gives you access to fish holding cover, you know, it’s they’re they’re not as common as you may think. 00:48:53 Dave: They’re not as common. Yeah. What about the species wise? If you’re out there, can you target like if you wanted to catch, you know, say five different species in that in that water body, could you target the different species or you just kind of catch whatever comes up. 00:49:06 Bart: No, no, you definitely can target different species. And often, um, you know, that’s the game plan for a given day on the water. Um, you know, let’s think about it. As much as I love fly fishing for, you know, bluegill, say, um, a bluegill, still a bluegill, and maybe a five or six pound largemouth bass is the more exciting, uh, quarry on a fly rod. So I may hit a a pond, say, two, three o’clock in the afternoon and spend a couple hours targeting sunfish and enjoying the hell out of myself the whole time. But as we get into that magic hour, as the sun gets low in the sky and things start to change, you know, these, these larger predator fish become more active. So, you know, a common thing that I do, especially if I’m fishing from a kayak, I may go out there with a four weight and then a seven or eight weight. And you know, when as we get into that, that last hour of daylight, I may transition from that lighter rod to that seven or eight weight and start tossing flies, that would be more interest to a larger predator, like a bass or a pike. Um, and these fish do turn up in, you know, different, you know, throughout the day. So if it is three thirty in the afternoon and I’m say I’m working a particular, uh, maybe I’m working a bed of lily pads. And in the center of that pad, I see a big disturbance where maybe a largemouth bass went after a sunfish or a frog or, you know, obviously made its presence known. Then I can instantly transition to that, to that heavier rod with that larger fly and target that fish. So for me, um, it’s a multi-species game. Um, I’m usually, you know, out there and there may be three or four different sunfish species that I’m targeting, but I’ll often have a second rod rigged for other larger fish that may be sharing that same body of water. 00:51:01 Dave: Gotcha. That makes sense. What about on your, um. On your trout? What does that look like? Are you covering all around new Jersey, or where are the spots you’re fishing out there? 00:51:10 Bart: So new Jersey trout fishing is really limited to the northern part of our state. We have an interstate that runs right across the middle of state. And, um, it’s called route seventy eight. And basically most of our trout water resides north of that line. Um, new Jersey, believe it or not, actually has, I believe, well over one hundred wild trout streams. 00:51:34 Dave: Oh, wow. Is this kind of north of, like, what would be the north of, like, Trenton or what would be the city it’d be north of? 00:51:39 Bart: Uh, so definitely north of Trenton. Um, that’s actually the area where I live, um, a little bit southwest of there. And so I’m at least an hour, fifteen minutes from my closest year round trout stream. There are put and take waters that are, you know, right in my backyard. But my trout stream tends to focus on our streams and rivers that support these fish year round. And we have a couple major river systems in the northern part of the state. Um, the South Branch of the Raritan River, the Musconetcong River, uh, the flat Brook River, the Pequest River, the Paulinskill. These are a larger streams that that hold fish year round. And these larger streams are all fed by numerous tributaries, and many of those tributaries are wild trout streams. Uh, fish that, uh, were maybe not native in the case of rainbow and brown trout, um, but are nonetheless wild. And we do have a, um, an ever dwindling number of waters that still harbor our our native brook trout species. 00:52:50 Dave: Right, right. Yeah. 00:52:51 Bart: So they’re they’re a protected fish in the state right now. And, uh, you know, we’re there’s a lot of efforts underway to, you know, kind of safeguard those populations. 00:52:59 Dave: Okay. And then just in general, new Jersey species, just everything. I mean, what are the the common top species? Just new Jersey, whether that’s, you know. 00:53:09 Bart: Trout. Trout species. 00:53:10 Dave: No. Just everything. Are we talking. Yeah. 00:53:12 Bart: Oh. All right, so let’s run the gamut from the smallest to the largest. So, um, in regards to sunfish species, or again, the bluegill, the pumpkin seed, those are our two most widespread. Okay. Our slower moving, uh, rivers and streams, um, are populated by redbreast sunfish in very good numbers. There are some invasives, as I mentioned before, like the green sunfish. And I’ve even, um, you know, caught some, uh, hybrid species and, and some others that aren’t native to new Jersey. Uh, we have, um, solid largemouth bass fishing in all of our warm water. Um, we do have some good smallmouth fishing in our, our streams and rivers, as well as some larger impoundments that have been stocked with smallmouth. The toothy critters. We have chain pickerel, which wrote a very large sizes in the state of new Jersey, um, as well as northern pike and muskie. Um, I do a fair amount of fishing for these larger predators as well. Moving on to cold water fish, um, we have all three species of trout. Uh, well, two species of trout and one char. We got the brook trout, the rainbow and brown trout. The state these days, um, predominantly stocks rainbow trout. Uh, years ago, they stocked all three species rainbows, browns and brookies. But now they are solely stocking rainbow trout. But, uh, brown trout have a, um, a strong foothold in the state with, uh, wild populations as well as a lot of the private waters. Um, just like everywhere else in the country, new Jersey has its share of private trout water. And a lot of these private clubs, um, stock brown trout. So, um, brown trout are pretty common in the state as well. Okay. And you know, outside of that we have our migratory species like, um, you know, shad, American shad, hickory shad. They run up our, our Delaware River every spring. Um, the Delaware is also has some phenomenal striped bass fishing in both the tidal sections and freshwater sections. And uh, of course, new Jersey being a coastal state, we have, uh, excellent saltwater fly fishing as well. So, um, yeah, um, you know, we have a little bit of everything. Uh, yeah. To be honest with you. 00:55:34 Dave: Right. What about what about you mentioned earlier. Pickerel. Do you have pickerel out there? 00:55:38 Bart: Yes. Um, especially in where I live, the part of the state that I live, um, kind of the central portion of the state, there are fish that, um, were many of the waters. There’s, there’s a, a vast and this is kind of strange coming out of, uh, when you talk about a state like new Jersey, but we actually have a a vast wilderness area in the southern part of the state called the Pine Barrens. Uh, it’s over a million acres of, um, pine forest. Uh, most of it, you know, has been undisturbed. Uh, and there’s the water down in that part of the state is, um, because of all the conifers and the pines, uh, very tannin stained water and pickerel are the predominant, uh, predator game fish. Um, even I think outnumbering fish, like, you know, largemouth bass in those areas, um, they’re pretty widespread throughout the state and they get quite large. Um, I think the, the new Jersey record for chain pickerel is somewhere around nine pounds. Uh, wow. Let’s see here. 00:56:42 Dave: Yeah. 00:56:43 Bart: Our state record pickerel is a nine pound, three ounce fish. Um, so, you know, that’s a, uh, a fairly large, uh, large fish, um, you know, definitely in that, that thirty inch range. Um, I’ve caught them every year. I catch numerous pickerel in that, you know, say twenty four to twenty eight inch range. Um, so they do get they get quite large. And they are one of my favorite fish to target with a fly rod. So, um, they provide all the excitement of, um, you know, their larger cousins like Pike and Muskie, but we could scale down that, that tackle, um, you know, so instead of throwing a, you know, my muskie rods range from ten to twelve rods and I’m throwing flies that could be, you know, almost eighteen inches. Right. Um, where I get the same kind of eats out of a species like a chain pickerel. But, um, I’m able to, you know, maybe fish a four to six weight, and my flies are two to four inches long, so it’s a lot easier on the body, uh, to, you know, to target these fish. And they’re they’re just exciting. And when we scale down the tackle to match the size and fight of the fish, you get just as much enjoyment out of it. 00:58:00 Dave: Yep. Perfect. Well, this is great. I think we can probably, uh, kind of end there and we’ll obviously have some. We’ll be following up with you. We’ll send everybody out here to panfish on the fly. You got a bunch of resources there. I know your blog is a good place. If somebody’s going to head over there now, is it just kind of search the blog and kind of dig in there? 00:58:18 Bart: Yeah, absolutely. Um, there’s tons of articles in there. Um, last year, um, there wasn’t much being done on the writing front. There was probably maybe only a half a dozen posts, but, um, back on track for this year and you can usually expect, um, let’s say two posts a month, and it covers everything from techniques to flies to a little bit more information on the fish themselves. Um, it’s a great resource for, for someone that’s, you know, interested in learning a little bit more about panfish on the fly? 00:58:50 Dave: Yeah. And you have some great photos. I’m just zipping through it. You’ve got tons of awesome images over there and photos of everything. So I think. 00:58:58 Bart: Well thank you. 00:58:58 Dave: Yeah, it’s a good, good resource. So we’ll send everybody there and yeah, Bart, this has been great. We’ll definitely keep in touch with you moving ahead and appreciate all your time today. 00:59:07 Bart: Fantastic. I love being on the show. Thanks for the invite again. 00:59:11 Dave: All right, before we get out of here, one last thought. If you haven’t checked in with Bart, do that right now. You can go to panfish on Thefly.com or follow him on social. Uh, panfish on the fly. Let him know you heard this podcast today, and if you have any questions, you can check in there and take it to the next step. A couple of things before we get out of here. We do have a new Tripp Teton Valley Lodge, if you’re interested. Uh, heading over to eastern Idaho. Uh, check in now. We got a giveaway. Wet fly swing giveaway. It’s live right now. Your chance to get an action to Teton. Uh, next episode is, uh, we’re digging into salmon, uh, biology. On the next episode here, we’re focusing on the Bristol Bay area up around togiak. Uh, and this is going to be awesome. You’re going to hear about the current status and everything else that’s going on. And before we get out of here to the boot camp is still coming up here March mid March. There’s been lots of questions around this. If you’re interested. We’re going to be doing a five day boot camp, which is a new presenter pretty much multiple times a day, and it’s going to be an awesome event that we’d love to have you in on and hear and see some of the best and answer questions. Even more importantly, you’ll be able to ask questions directly in our Q&A sessions. All right, that’s all I have for you. I hope you enjoyed this one. Thanks for checking in today. Hope you have a great afternoon, evening or morning wherever in the world you are, and I appreciate you and appreciate you for stopping in today. Talk to you then.