Will (2s): The saying, you know, I didn’t come up with it, but a friend of mine did. So many times you’re, you know, you’re out in these different places and it’s like, it’s so beautiful. And then you’re like, and we get to go fishing. You know what I mean? Like, the environment is so awesome and just amazing and beautiful And it’s blowing your mind. And then you’re like, oh my gosh, I have a fly rod here in my hand. And we’re gonna go deeper out there into the unknown and, and greatness and, and all of that. So that’s a very longwinded answer to why I love to travel and, and fly fish. Brian (42s): Welcome to In The Bucket, the podcast that explores the culture of spay fishing in the Pacific Northwest. A spectacular land of mountains and wild rivers where every cast has a story to tell. I’m your host, Brian Ska. In today’s show, we’re gonna be expanding our discussion topics beyond the traditional scope of In the Bucket. Since we started the show, we’ve spent a lot of time talking about space specific ideas like casting improvement, gear selection, and what to do when a steelhead grabs your fly. In this episode, I’ve got Will Rice, Jason Rolfe, and Travis Bader joining me. These guys are journalists, outdoor educators, and travel experts. I’m sure we’ll get into steelhead as we do, but today I wanna talk about fly fishing, travel adventure in general, personal safety on the water, and dig into a fly fishing mystery or two. Brian (1m 35s): Welcome folks. I’m really excited for today’s show. This is one I’ve been hoping to put together for a while. I’ve got three super interesting guests for you sitting with me today. I’ve got Will Rice, Jason Rolf, and Travis Bader. Will, why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Yeah. Will (1m 50s): Hey, thanks for having me on the show. My name is Will Rice. I’m originally from upstate New York, spent a lot of time out in Colorado and I’m now up here in Vancouver, British Columbia, I should say, back up here in Vancouver. And I’m a freelance writer and content creator and I love to love to fly fish. So that’s, that’s, that’s pretty much it. Jason (2m 14s): My name is Jason Raul from the editor of the Fly Fish Journal and the founder of a reading series called Writers on the Fly. I live in Olympia, Washington, lived here pretty much most of my life, so get up to get up to BC at least a couple times a year to go fishing or climbing or find some other adventures to, to do. Travis (2m 39s): Brian, thanks so much for having me here. Great to see you again, Jason and Will Great to see you guys for the first time. My name’s Travis Bader. I am passionate about the outdoors. I’ve got a company called Silver Core Outdoors, and for the last five years I’ve hosted a podcast called the Silver Core Podcast. Brian (2m 55s): Well, isn’t this fun where we got four podcasters here on the show, don’t we? Travis (3m 1s): We might be able to figure something out here, right? Brian (3m 3s): Yeah, I was joking with my wife that eventually there’s gonna be more podcasters than listeners, so it’s important that we all, we all stick together and listen to each other’s shows. Yep, Will (3m 12s): That’s right. Brian (3m 13s): So Will your podcast is really unique And it was honestly probably the first podcast I actually listened to, aside from, from Joe Rogan back in the day. You know, what’s the heck’s the podcast? Oh, comes Joe Rogan, my buddy says this is gonna be a big deal. And you know, sure enough he was right. So your podcast is a little bit different. How would you characterize that style of a podcast? ’cause really it, you know, it it told a story and there was chapters to it. Will (3m 40s): Yeah, well thank thanks for that. Yeah. Down the path, it was created a little bit of a science project really. I first had set out to write a long form story, so you know, an article that that might appear in a magazine or, or on a website. And as I was thinking about that story that, that I had originally started working on about 10 years before that I had listened to Serial, which is a, is a podcast that probably a lot of people have heard. And you know, in, in going through the, the process of creating the article, you know, you interview people and I record people and so the the dots kind of connected and, and I thought, you know, hey, in addition to writing this long form article, that at some point I’ll find, hopefully find a home for, I can do these recordings and maybe put together something like Sarah Kig put together with, with Serial. Will (4m 36s): So that was, I mean, there was a little bit of a lift and lay there as I was trying to think about how it could be done. And yeah, that’s the origin of it. And, and you know, it ended up, we, you know, we did publish the article on the fly fish journal.com and in the process as well, I, I talked to Jason about kind of my idea And it was just an idea at that point, very much. And we put our heads together and, and collaborated and, and I, I owe a ton of thanks to Jason, you know, for his, his style edits and, and he did all the digital sound and was a tremendous source of creativity when, when the whole thing came together. Will (5m 17s): So yeah, that’s kinda, that’s how I, how I would describe it or I guess the origin of the, of the podcast. Brian (5m 24s): Excellent. So essentially, if I’m picking up what you’re laying down, the story came before the podcast, is that right? Will (5m 29s): Yeah, absolutely. It really did. You know, in, in fact when I was interviewing people for the story, you know, I would always mention, Hey, you know, this could come out in some other type of digital form. I don’t even think I used the word podcast when I was talking to people and interviewing people that you hear in down the Path season one. It was more of like a concept like, yeah, there might be some digital form of this recording. And I would always ask them, obviously if, if I could record them and get permission. And, and that’s its own whole thing, you know, kind of getting people to do that and, and some of the folks I had to actually interview twice to get them to go on record for the recorded portion of it. Will (6m 10s): So yeah. Yeah, very much. We did not have a, a real firm understanding of what down the path was gonna look like when we started. Brian (6m 19s): And we’re definitely gonna do a bit of a deep dive on, on season one down the path. But before we do, I want to talk podcasting with our other guests. So Jason, your podcast is a, you’ve actually, I think, been involved with a couple different podcasts, but totally different style. Let’s talk about your introduction to podcasting. Jason (6m 36s): Yeah, you know, I come from being obsessed with writing background. That’s all I ever wanted to do growing up. And you know, after I got into fly fishing, then I discovered the very rich and massive world of fly fishing, writing and fly fishing literature and, and especially got to know a couple of, you know, really great writers that we have up here in the Pacific Northwest. And so, boy, I honestly, I think I started, so I think I started this thing called Writers on the Fly first, which is the reading series that I mentioned that it’s like a literary reading. Jason (7m 17s): The first one happened at a fly shop in Seattle called Emerald Water Anglers. And we’re actually having the 10th anniversary reading next month. But it’s just, I got a three different readers fly fishing writers and they get up in front of the crowd and they read a few stories or poems or whatever they have. And that really kind of came from just my love of that kind of thing. When I was in college, you know, there was a literary reading every weekend And it was fun and we’d drink beer and wine and listen to stories and totally nerd out about words and you know, that kind of thing. And then I think kind of similar to Will with the podcast, I was a big fan of a couple of podcasts, one being the Mark Marin’s WTF podcast. Jason (8m 3s): I really liked that, the interview style. And so I thought, well, maybe I can try to do that with some of these writers that I know. So Dylan Mina was one, Steve Duda, who at the time was the editor of the Fly Fish Journal, was another, and there’s been a handful of others. Will was a writer that I interviewed for the Fly Tapes. And so yeah, that, the podcast that I initially started was called The Fly Tapes, And it was interviews with writers and eventually artists as well. And just conversations really like this, hearing about people’s backgrounds, hearing about how they got into writing, how they got into fly fishing and just really having fun conversations was kind of where I came into it from. Jason (8m 49s): And I really, you know, was kind of learning as I went and figured it out. And one day will hit me up and he said, Hey, you know, there’s this story that I’ve been following for I think almost 10 years at that point Will, right Ron Sheep’s story. And he, he asked me if I would help him, you know, create a, a podcast version of the story. And I was like, yeah, let’s do it. Sounds fun, sounds like a challenge. Sounds like I will definitely be a fish out of water, but I think we’ll figure it out and we can, you know, I really felt like we could do something compelling and do something interesting and the rest is history. Brian (9m 28s): Well, I certainly found it to be interesting. I had to binge listen to the whole thing and I don’t wanna give anything away so I won’t express my thoughts or frustrations right now. Podcasting, art form, perhaps relatively new, evolving. We’re figuring it out as we go. Travis, I was the guest on your show and you were early in on podcasting. How many years have you had the Silver course show now? Travis (9m 50s): Oh man, I don’t feel like it was early in, but about five years. And now I’m not the target demographic for podcasting. And even now, if people say, oh, you’re a podcaster, I’m like, yeah, I guess so. Like I’m sitting in my studio, I’ve got a microphone and I’ve been putting a podcast out every couple weeks. I guess I’m a podcaster, but I, it was about five and a half years ago, my wife got me tickets for Christmas to go watch a live taping of a podcast and I’ve got a DHD and my attention’s all over the place and I don’t, I don’t really listen to podcasts and I’m not the average consumer of content like most people would consume it, a little dribs and drabs here and there. But I look at this, I’m like, what kind of present is this? Travis (10m 31s): I mean, I don’t listen to podcasts, I’ve never listened to one at that time. And it’s for this group called Meat Eater. I’ve never heard of Meat Eater, I don’t know anything about this. Right. Well, meat Eater was kind of a big deal even at that time. And we go down there, I ended up meet and greet getting to meet Steve and Janice and actually met this really nice girl who grew up in my hometown from Surrey and talked with her for a bit, our mutual friend April Vokey. And she’s big into podcasting and she was a big inspiration for me. So I kind of took the plunge Friend came by and says, everyone’s gotta be a media company. I’ve watched this guy called Gary Vayner Ju and that’s what he says. And I, again had no clue who this person was, but trusted my friend and turned my office into a studio, moved the staff to a different office and here we are now. Brian (11m 21s): So Podcasting’s just basically part of your empire down there. What else does Silver Core do? What’s Silver Core about Travis? Travis (11m 28s): Well, I guess again, a DHD, a little bit of everything, but I started Silver Core when I was in high school and it was basically firearm safety training in Canada under the new government program that the RCNP put out. I applied for policing in my early twenties at around 20 years old. They said, come back with more experience. I said, tell you what, I’ll start a business. That’ll be my experience. When it fails, I’ll come back and I’ll be a cop. Well, the business didn’t fail and I’ve been doing firearms repair and maintenance across Canada for law enforcement agencies and private security and public companies. And we do instruction for like mineral exploration and parks and ministry of forest, DOF on firearms, situational awareness, bear awareness, basic safety. Travis (12m 17s): And over the last number of years, I’ve been sitting behind a desk more than anything. Well, other very talented instructors are, are carrying the torch forward. So that’s a little bit about what we do online training as well. And then we’ve got the provincial contract for Hunter education training online in British Columbia. Brian (12m 35s): And if we could only go back in time and if, well, Ron had only picked you as one of his fishing partners, maybe he’d still be around. Travis (12m 42s): I don’t know. I don’t know. I’ve been looking a little bit about this case, but there’s always the benefit of being the armchair quarterback in, in hindsight and what we could have done. But hopefully I’ve got a couple of points here that might resonate with the listeners that can help them if they decide to go out and do something similar. Brian (12m 57s): So Will, let’s, let’s talk about how you first became aware of this particular unfortunate situation. Will (13m 5s): Sure. So back then, so 2009 I’d, you know, been writing different articles for fly fishing magazines and, you know, I never really was a kinda where to or, or how to writer and, and I was really trying to chase other types of stories that were interesting to me. And I’d written a story in 2007 about a lodge owner in The Bahamas, a fly fishing lodge owner in The Bahamas who went missing with a few of his employees and a few boats, which was a really interesting story for me. And that kind of got the, the door kicked open into the magazine writing on my end. Will (13m 45s): And then I did a couple other stories about people, you know, kind of just getting into bad situations while, while fly fishing. One guy in Montana who was, he was a guide who got hit by Lightning, another guy in Colorado who had an accident and had a self amputate his knee. Another story about an angler who was down in Florida and was, was DIY tarpon fishing, fell off his boat and nicked an artery. So kind of those just interesting off the beaten path stories, I guess. And so in 2009, a friend of mine had just sent me a random email ’cause he knew I was, you know, into those kind of different types of stories. Will (14m 26s): And it was super short. It was like, Hey, did you hear about this guy who went missing down in, down in southern Mexico? And I had not heard about it. And so that kind of kicked me into gear and I just started, you know, to see what, you know, what was being reported locally there ish, KLA, Mexico. I mean, there’s not a lot of infrastructure, it’s a super small village. So there wasn’t a lot of information about the story. So I just started kind of digging in and I pitched the idea, you know, like, Hey, let’s write a piece about this because, you know, he’d been missing for a couple weeks at that point. And you know, I’d reached out to people close to him and I wasn’t getting a lot of information and I reached out to people who were at the lodge he was staying at and they didn’t wanna talk about it. Will (15m 14s): And you know, maybe Travis, I’m like you a little bit, you know, that that kind of gets me going even more when people don’t wanna talk about things. And so, you know, at the time, you know, at the time, you know, there’s a deadline for that magazine issue. And it was just the basics. It was like, you know, who, what, when, where, why, what do we know? And I kind of figured, you know, in the next couple weeks, you know, he’d be found and you know, that would be it. And he wasn’t. And I would continue to go back just to look to see, you know, hey, what happened, what happened? And nothing. And, and that just kind of took me down the path, so to speak. Brian (15m 51s): Well, it’s a, it’s a fantastic title for the show and we’re giving the listeners here just a little bit of taste as we go, which I hope what we would encourage them to do to get the full story is to check out your show. So let’s take a quick moment and tell ’em how they can find episode one of Down the Path Online. Will (16m 7s): Yeah, you can check out episode one or there’s a short trailer. It’s like a five minute trailer. It’s still at down the path podcast.com. Or you can find down the path at, you know, apple Music or Spotify, just about anywhere that you listen to your, your podcast. Brian (16m 25s): Now, Jason, your magazine of course did a, a fairly large feature on this particular situation to access that. Is that online or do people need to find back issues of the magazine? Jason (16m 36s): No, we did that, we did that as a, as a online only feature. So it wasn’t in print. You just go to the, go to the website, the fly fish journal.com and just probably search down the path and it’ll come up. I think we’ve done a couple things with Will with Down the path over the last several years. So might find a couple things in there. But yeah, that original story about Ron Sheep’s disappearance is just on the website Brian (17m 6s): And it’s important for me to mention that, you know, there’s three seasons of Down the path isn’t there? Will, Will (17m 11s): Yeah, three seasons or three very separate stories. Yeah. Season one is about Ron Shera and his disappearance from Ishak Mexico. Season two is about the murder of a fly fishing guy named Mario Grene and his client named Gary Swank in Belize. And the third season is, it’s called The Disappearance of Stanley Bain. And that’s that original story I was telling you about, about the lodge owner who went missing from South Andros Island in The Bahamas back in, back in 1995. So that, yeah, those are the three distinct seasons, quote unquote, or, or, or stories. Dave (17m 51s): Stonefly Nets build handcrafted landing nets that are as tough as they are beautiful. They’re shaped, sanded, and finished by hand from premium hardwoods. You’ll feel the difference the moment you land your first fish light in the hands, strong at the hoop and made by someone who knows what it means to earn your trust. You can head over to stonefly nets.com right now and see what they’ve got in the shop today. That’s stonefly nets.com. Discover Smitty’s Fly box for premium flies. Their monthly subscription service delivers expertly crafted flies and materials tailored to your fishing environment, boasting over 30 years of experience. Smitty’s is your trusted source for a diverse range of flies, enhance your fishering experience and make life easier with their carefully created selections. Dave (18m 36s): You can subscribe right now at smitty’s fly box.com and join a community of passionate anglers. Brian (18m 46s): So what’s compelling to me with, with season one with Ron Shera is you were, you were in it right away. So essentially you were taking on the role of a private investigator and you know, you were talking to people much in the same way. Perhaps an officer of the law might be trying to extract information. And one of the things that really dug me into those episodes was people’s behavior wasn’t what I would expect. And I always think that when things aren’t what you would expect, there’s more to the story. And, you know, it was, it was a, it’s a heck of a mystery. It really is. Travis, I know you weren’t, you’re kind of new to this story, but I know you’ve done a little bit of looking into it. Brian (19m 27s): Can you give some quick insight into what Ron could have done pre-trip, you know, before he even got on the plane to help put himself in a better situation? And Travis (19m 37s): I like the way that you put that. Whenever I break these things down, I like to look at a before, during, and after sort of an outline. It helps me to be able to kind of think about like compartmentalize different things that I can do. So basic trip preparation beforehand, you want to take a look at what your risks are gonna be. I mean the, the fact that there are risks are what make these sort of adventures exciting. They make them adventurous. There’s a big question mark out there. You’re never gonna be able to eliminate all of those question marks, but you can manage them pretty good ahead of time and you can do that without even leaving your desk. You can get onto ai, any can start using that to say, what are some of the environmental risks that I could be looking at? Travis (20m 21s): What are the social risks that I could be looking at? What are basic things that I might wanna pack with me in this area at this time? You can call up police stations and given, depending on the place that you’re calling, they might be able to give you a little bit of insight like, Hey, I’m planted to stay in this area. Would you let your kids stay in this area? Like is this a place where I should be st staying around or would you recommend some other place? So a little bit of prior planning is helpful, putting together an itinerary, very itemized list of kinda what you plan to be doing. And even having a check-in if you’re doing this all by yourself and there’s an adventure to that. A quick way to help minimize risk is the buddy system. Like they say in Rex Kwando, we use the buddy system, right? Travis (21m 3s): So having somebody else with you can be helpful, but if you’re doing it by yourself, having somebody who knows what you’re doing that you can check in with, maybe if you’re gonna be with a guide, research ’em, I mean, it’s all online, it’s easy enough to do, get on Google, do a little bit of Google Fu and then you kind of wanna establish a baseline. And that can be done partially prior and when you first arrive and establishing a baseline will kind of tell you what the norm is. So you can establish a baseline for people and their patterns establish a baseline for the wilderness and what to expect. And that will allow you to more easily identify the absence of normal ’cause that is oftentimes when you will run into issues. Travis (21m 50s): That would be a few of my before tips. Brian (21m 52s): Those are great. And I always remember my mom growing up when I would, and this was before we had in reach satellite messaging, before cell phones. My mom would always wanna know when I’d go off my fishing adventures, you know, where I was going and who I was going with basic stuff. You know, I, I’m bouncing around a little bit as we do with this show, but season two will, you know, that was, you know, whereas the, the Sheep store case is, is really fascinating. We know exactly what happened in season two And it really seems a situation of someone who went on a fishing trip and ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person, didn’t it? Will (22m 30s): Yeah. And they’re very different, you know, season one and the, and the story of Ron, you know, it, it’s probably the most fascinating one for me just because the lack of any type of evidence that points to any one of the things that could have happened. I mean, it’s just, it, the sum is zero. Season two is very different. I I agree. It’s, you know, it, it’s pretty clear what happened in season two. It wasn’t clear when we started the podcast. That was one of the things. So you know about Midway, you know, these, these projects take, you know, anywhere from I think seven or eight months to a year plus. And so midway through the work on season two, the police in Belize, you know, released a report that, you know, was shocking in its detail in a way and really kind of outlined. Will (23m 20s): But when we started it was still kind of a mystery. And you know, to some degree, I think, I think you summed it up exactly right and that was just being at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person. And you know, it’s, you know, I I think you can do as much preparation as, as you, you want and those things can happen. But I would say this too, you know, one of the things there is, I’ve talked to people in the travel industry, you know, working with some, some of the professional travel agencies there who do a lot of that pre-vetting and they know and they’ve been out with these people. I think there is a level of, you know, risk elimination. You know, if you work with some of these companies who have hands-on experience versus just, I mean, and I’ve done it, right, I am totally guilty of, you know, walking into a village and going knocking on a door because I got a name, you know, at the bar of a guy who’s who drives a boat and I go out with him. Will (24m 17s): So, I mean, I’ve done that many, many, many times and you know, probably that’s a little bit riskier than, you know, working with a travel company who’s really vetted these companies and guide services and guides. Well, Brian (24m 29s): So will, you know, to me you’re, I’ve guided you for steelhead. I can’t remember, I don’t think we caught any steelhead, but we tried. That’s right. But you’re, you’re a pretty well-rounded angler. You’re, you’re big into warm water, salt water stuff, aren’t you? Yeah, Will (24m 40s): I, I’m a I’m a dabbler of everything. I, I would say I’m a, I’m an expert of nothing and a and a dabbler of, of everything that swims. So yeah. That’s a good, that’s a good way to put it. Brian (24m 49s): Jason, I know you’ve done some, some guiding. We, we talked a bit about that before working with, I believe that same fly shop right? In Washington. Jason (24m 58s): Yeah, yeah. Emerald Water anglers. Brian (25m 0s): I’ve never been in there, but I’ve heard nothing but good things about that shop. So let’s talk about your fishing. So you’re down in Washington. Are you a steelhead guy primarily, or do you do a little bit of everything? Jason (25m 10s): Yeah, I definitely, when it’s steelhead season, I go fishing for steelhead, you know, something I enjoy every year, but I, I do like to mix it up the rest of the year. I don’t do a whole lot of summer steel heading because, you know, I’m usually out salmon fishing or trout or carp or bass, you know, I, I really do like to, to mix it up in the warmer months. But yeah, January through, you know, mid-April if I have a free day or a free weekend, I’m, I’m going out steelheading somewhere. And it’s something that, it’s something that, that I, I grew up with my, you know, there’s pictures of me as a little kid with steelhead on the Soul duck. Jason (25m 53s): And it’s funny because I, you know, I grew up steelheading and, and fishing for salmon, and then there was a long period where when I was younger that I, when I didn’t fish as much, and then sort of after college, I, when I got into fly fishing, I eventually got into fly fishing for steelhead. And that whole, you know, walk of, of misery, I guess that is swinging flies and, you know, yeah, that’s what I do nowadays. Brian (26m 23s): So, you know, for myself dabbling in this podcast stuff, I also obviously run a lodge and teach casting. Those are my main jobs and have a family. So I tend to record a bunch of the shows one after another. So I’ve got ’em sitting there ready to go. And yesterday I, I had a real fun one. I, I sat down with Richard Harrington, who’s also a podcaster. Richard has got a great show called The River Rambler, and another guest, a guy I’d never met before, but super interesting, Kat, a guy named Adrian Cortez, and not trying to scare you guys, but we talked for about three hours. I’m gonna have to edit that one down to make it work. But it, you know, we had just a fantastic discussion. Brian (27m 3s): And Adrian in particular is fascinating to me because he ties his flies in his hand. He doesn’t use a vice, he fishes bamboo, he fishes a dry line, prefers to fish a dry fly. So essentially Adrian’s made fly fishing for steelhead as challenging as possible, and doing it in a way that’s true to the history, you know, using, you know, established patterns. And once again, you know, not a numbers guy by any means. And I think, you know, steelheading is different to me than other types of fly fishing because it’s a bit of a mental exercise. You know, we don’t get that positive reinforcement of knowing that the fish are in the lake, or we can see the fish on the flats. We have to believe they’re there and we just have to, you know, one more cast, one more step, one more cast. Brian (27m 46s): Travis, you’re fairly new to Steelheading, I think, you know, less than a decade, right? Travis (27m 51s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I’m, I’m newer actually. The first time I tried Steelheading was ski spay up there with you. And I got some amazing casting lessons and a very jealous wife as you were showing me some how to cast there. And I caught my first steelhead with, with Pat, pat Behan. I met him at your lodge, but I actually caught my first steelhead on the Squamish and, and then proceeded to catch another one right afterwards. So that was kind of, kind of a good day. It was pretty good. Well, Brian (28m 22s): That’s, that’s Steelheading, isn’t it? It’s just, it’s hilarious how things go. Squamish, widely regarded as a challenging place to catch a steelhead guy who’s never caught one goes out and gets two in the same day, right? Yep, yep. There you go. Yep. Will (28m 34s): You’re making me mad Travis. Travis (28m 37s): That was my first one, and then after I got, I was like, oh, this is easy. Oh God, I got another one. This is easy. About half an hour later, I got my second one. Brian (28m 45s): Travis, you’re at the core. Your company’s an educational company and the business that you’re in is, is teaching people and essentially sharing your passions. So you’re, you’re an outdoors guy. What is it about steelheading that speaks to you and and do you have similarities there with, with your hunting? Travis (29m 2s): I love standing in the water. I love connecting with nature. Any way that I can deepen my connection with nature and I view hunting and fishing as an excellent means to be able to do that. And people say, well, isn’t that a cruel way to connect with nature? You’re just out there teasing these poor fish or injuring these poor defenseless animals. But that’s a very, very small part of the whole process. And of course when you’re hunting all, everything you get can be used. You’re steel heading, we’re catch and release. And that was a whole new concept to me, which was, I know when we first came in there, and I think I probably just peppered you with 101 different questions about like, why are we letting these fish go afterwards? Travis (29m 44s): I mean, like, I, should I be buying a cooler? I can, that was new to me. But standing in the water, connecting with nature, the stillness is something that speaks to my A DHD in a way that nothing else ever has. Brian (29m 57s): Now will, what is it about saltwater fishing that gets you going? Is it the visual aspect? Will (30m 2s): There’s a couple of different things I would say about salt water fishing that really tip me over that, that’s what I would call it. I always liked to travel, I always liked the, you know, as Travis mentioned before, the, you know, the adventure, the unknown of travel. So even before I really got into fly fishing, I, I dug that, whether it was, you know, here in the states or overseas. And then I started to fly fish and then, you know, very quickly realized that like when you’re traveling, you know, you can bring a four piece rod and there’s fishing opportunities everywhere around the globe. And, you know, that just took like the, what I always think of the, you know, the puzzle of fly fishing, trying to put it together all the different pieces, whether it’s on your little local river or creek and the time of year and, and all that kind of thing. Will (30m 50s): And it just, you know, takes that puzzle and up levels it. And now you’re, you know, you’re visiting these, these amazing places and you’re checking out new species and there’s the culture to it, all of that, you know, just, you know, really kind of, you know, tipped me over, as I always say, it tipped me over. And that put me on a, you know, I, I always said I’m a better person when I have a, when I have a trip on the books and you know, maybe I’m tying flies or I’m doing research and, and then yes, finally like at the end of all of that, there is that, you know, visual aspect of saltwater fishing that you get many times, but not all the times. You know, the, there’s plenty of times you blind cast and that kind of thing, but, you know, permit bonefish, tarpon, you know, that visual aspect of stalking a fish, seeing a fish, making the cast, watching it eat, you know, that to me is, is pretty pinnacle. Will (31m 43s): I love that. And you know, and then again, I, you know, the the saying, you know, I didn’t come up with it but a friend of mine did. So many times you’re, you know, you’re out in these different places and it’s like, it’s so beautiful. And then you’re like, and we get to go fishing. You know what I mean? Like, the environment is, is so awesome and just amazing and beautiful and it’s blowing your mind and then you’re like, oh my gosh, I have a fly rod here in my hand and we’re gonna go deeper out there into the unknown and, and greatness and, and all of that. So that’s a very long-winded answer to why I love to travel and, and fly fish. Brian (32m 19s): So, you know, the trip Ron was on and once again, I, I hesitate to give too much information here ’cause I want people to go and, and check out your show because, you know, the way you’ve put it together, it’s such a good listen. But I think it’s important for people listening to have some idea of, let’s call it the trajectory, the decisions that were made and how, how Ron’s day went when he went down the path with this particular story had, do you fish the waters that Ron was fishing that day? Will (32m 46s): No, I’ve never fished ishak. I fished just south of there down at Belize and Agi Key. I think we actually fished probably illegally north into, into Mexico on, on one trip. And then I have fished quite a bit just north of, of Ishak in Ascension Bay. So I fished around the area, but never in Ishak per se. Brian (33m 7s): Jason or Travis, have either of you fished in that neck of the woods? Will (33m 11s): No. No, I haven’t, Brian (33m 12s): Never Jason (33m 12s): Have. No. Brian (33m 14s): You know what’s interesting Will is I have numerous friends who fish that area. I’m not a a burn in the sun. I’m not a, I’m not a warm water guy, but you know, the friends that I I have that have visited down there, none of them were aware of this. And I’ve, I keep pointing them to your, to your show, right? So it doesn’t seem like this is something that really gets discussed down there by anglers fishing it. I don’t wanna say it’s forgotten, but it’s not the topic of conversation I would’ve thought it would be. Will (33m 38s): Yeah, I think that, you know, generally is the case, right? It, it’s kind of a tourist, not tourist area, but you know, it, it’s not something that if you were running a business down there, I guess you’d probably wanna really advertise people going missing around your, your commercial place of business. So I, I get that for sure. And you know, the podcast was, was kind of popular, but it’s a pretty nerdy topic, so I don’t think it’s, you know, it’s not been widely, widely listened to. So yeah, that doesn’t, that doesn’t completely surprise me. Brian (34m 12s): Well, let, let’s summarize it a little bit. So Ron’s on a fishing trip with his buddies, people, I believe that he, he knew fairly well on this particular day. He makes a decision where he is fishing on his own. What was he fishing for that day? Will (34m 27s): I am guessing, you know, primarily permit, you know, Ishak is a place that’s really known as a, as a permit fishery. And then, you know, obviously, well not obviously, but there are bonefish down there, so I’m sure they were having shots at, at bonefish as well in that specific little lagoon area. I’d say those are probably the two, two species that they would be coming across as well as, you know, probably like smaller barracuda, that kind of thing as well. Brian (34m 55s): Nice. So he’s out there fishing, people see him leave, he doesn’t show up when he is supposed to. What happened then? Yeah, Will (35m 2s): That part of the day is kind of a mystery. You know, there’s about four to six hours there that, you know, I really dug into it and, and tried to get as much information, you know, hour by hour, minute by minute of like what actually happened. And as best I can tell, you know, there’s a couple odd things, you know, four people out there, they had two cars. That’s not normally how they fished. So that group of folks, four folks, they had fished there two years prior, so they knew the area. This, the third year was a little bit different. So they had two cars and Ron told his friends he wasn’t feeling that well and was gonna go back to the car and so he kind of walked out of the flat outta sight of his, his buddies and just kind of vanished. Will (35m 48s): And his buddies then left. They saw his car, they figured that maybe he didn’t go back to the hotel like he said he was going to, they went about and fished some more, went back to the hotel during midday, then went back out to the flat again. His car was still there. They went back to the hotel in the evening. And then later in the evening at dinnertime is when they, you know, let the staff know that Ron Ron was missing. So yeah, that six hours, that four hours, I mean everyone I’ve talked to, you know, kind of agrees. It’s just, it’s a little bit of a mystery and it’s not really well documented. Brian (36m 27s): Jason, when you guys came out with, you know, the online article, did you get any feedback from, from readers, people with ideas? Jason (36m 35s): I think that we probably got more feedback and theories from people listening to the podcast. ’cause you know, there was Will and I would get emails from people through the, the link on the down the path podcast website and, you know, ranging from messages, ranging from just surprise and amazement at this story and just wondering like what had hap ’cause it, it really is just such a compelling mystery. There is absolutely nothing to point in any one direction and Will in the podcast goes through kind of some theories of what the possibilities are, but there’s really nothing that points strongly, you know, in any one direction as far as I can remember. Jason (37m 27s): And, but we would, you know, I think we would get messages from people here and there that maybe pointed a little bit in one direction and then, you know, it maybe follow it up a little bit And it kind of would, would peter out, will might be able to speak to some of those things a little bit more. But yeah. And as far as, you know, through the, the online article that was on the website, I don’t remember whether we got any messages through that, but it was definitely, you know, we could tell after that first season of the podcast was released, I I think we could tell that it had struck a chord. Jason (38m 10s): People were certainly, certainly interested, certainly intrigued and, and that was fun. It, it was, it felt good to know that we had created something that was resonating with people Brian (38m 22s): And building awareness, right? Yeah. If the gentleman was still alive, someone’s, I mean, he’s gonna stick out down there, right? Yeah. Jason (38m 30s): You would think. Travis (38m 31s): And he walked off and that was the last will, that was the last anybody ever heard of him? He said he wasn’t feeling well, he walked off. Will (38m 36s): That is correct. Travis (38m 38s): Did anybody say anything like he didn’t look well as well? Or do we have an idea as to his mental health prior to going in here? Was there any indicators that perhaps there was a physical health issue? Will (38m 52s): So yeah, so Ron was a big guy. He was over 300 pounds. He was known to have some type of heart condition, you know, as it was explained to me, you know, he, he kind of was not behaving normally, kind of walking around in circles a little bit. And this is all relayed by his friends to Mexican law enforcement and folks from the US government afterward. So he was kind of not behaving normally, said he wasn’t feeling great and was gonna, you know, walk back now the mental health piece of it. And this was one that was, you know, you know, looked at very, I guess in depth by the US government and the consulate. Will (39m 39s): And that was the thought of like suicide. You know, was he, was his mental health not there. And from all accounts, I mean everyone, his wife, the proprietor of the hotel who, who knew him fairly well, his friends that he, he did not have any, you know, depression or mental health issues that would lead in that direction. And I feel like that one was pretty, pretty much ruled out within the first few days of the investigation. Travis (40m 8s): Interesting. When we’re talking before, during, and after, if we’re to jump to the after, his friends that saw him walk off have probably replayed this through their head 101 times, what would I do differently? Gavin de Becker wrote a book called The Gift of Fear. And aside from it being an excellent sales piece for Gavin de Becker, it also highlights some really valuable insights on how people can trust their gut reaction or should trust their women’s intuition or their gut feeling. And oftentimes people say, well how come I didn’t do something? Well, how come they didn’t? If he’s my friend’s not feeling well, why did I just let him walk back on a zone? Maybe something happened. And oftentimes it’s because people are are embarrassed or they, they figure nothing’s gonna happen. Travis (40m 52s): I would say as a ’cause Brian, you said, if I have ideas and thoughts to, to share these with the listeners, if it goes through your head as a possibility and now that you’ve heard this podcast, there’s a possibility, take that next step. So you never have to ask yourself that question later. What could have I done differently? It’s like a person who’s starts to choke in a restaurant, oftentimes they go into the bathroom ’cause they don’t want to cause a scene. They’re gonna figure this thing out on themselves, follow the person down who looks like they’re having a difficult time. If they look like they’re having a disjointed thought, they verbalize that they’re not feeling well. Take a few moments and spend that time and do that, that extra work with that individual. Travis (41m 34s): So you don’t have to ever turn around later and say, I should have coulda, woulda. Brian (41m 38s): So, you know, back to my mom, don’t go anywhere alone. You know, the relationship with a fishing partner is a special relationship because a lot of times you’re within sight of each other but not necessarily able to talk. So you know, you, you’ve got each other’s back, so to speak. And you know, when we’re out steelhead fishing, wildlife’s a bit of a concern, especially as we approach the river. And especially at the end of the day when we leave the river, when we’re fishing. You know, if, if the bears wanted us, they could just sneak up behind us and whack us and drag us off. We would be none the wiser. But, you know, when we’re moving to and from the river, that’s when we really need to pay attention to our surroundings. And the times that I’ve personally got myself in bad situations with bears, it’s usually a series of things. Brian (42m 21s): So I, I think back to the, the last one, I was with two friends, so I was doing everything right. There was three of us in the group. Now what we’d done wrong is we’d fish till dark. So it was, it was pretty dark when we were going out, there were salmon spawning in this little creek and the trail went parallel to the creek. So it’s, you know, it’s a single file trail and here we are hiking out and lo and behold there’s a just a black bear you fished away, oh look, it’s a black bear with a cub fishing in this creek. Okay? But what we didn’t realize because we weren’t as situationally aware as we should have been, is there was actually two cubs and the other cub was not with the mum in that cub, it was actually on the other side of us. Brian (43m 3s): Once the mother realized what was going on, she was not very pleased. And she expressed that to us in ways that we won’t soon forget. Luckily we at that point did something right and she gathered up her cub, her cubs and they sauntered off up the hillside the same direction we were going. And, and me and my two buddies sat there and said, huh, I wonder how, how long we should give her before we, we hike out in the dark with no flashlights Travis. ’cause this was, you know, a series of bad decisions. And, and so these are, these are lessons you learn. And I think it was probably honestly pure luck that that situation didn’t go bad. Will with Ron, is there a chance that, you know, he encountered some wildlife? What’s down there that’s dangerous? Will (43m 43s): Yeah, there, I think the biggest one, so when we, when we talk to folks it like it pretty quickly. There’s, there’s four like very possible scenarios that people would talk about. And I think the second one was an encounter with some type of wildlife. And I think the only apex predator down in that very specific area, which is these little back lagoons that are very, very shallow, would be a saltwater crocodile. And so that was definitely, you know, something that as far as I can tell was something discussed by local law enforcement right out of the gate. Like did he get eaten by a croc? Will (44m 25s): And I think that one was pretty quickly ruled out just because of the timing. So where he was and the, you know, the amount of time between a lot of people got into that area searching for him. The conclusion was that if a salt water croc did attack him, which is, you know, definitely a possibility there would be evidence of that, right? So like his fly rod or his pack or a shirt or a body part, you know, something there would have, you know, there would’ve been a sign of that kind of explosive attack that might have happened and there wasn’t, and people were on the scene, you know, within, you know, eight hours, within 12 hours, there was a lot of people all around that area. Will (45m 14s): So that was kind of ruled out. Brian (45m 16s): And I remember on the show will, one of the locals said, Hey, you know, the birds will tell us where to find them. Will (45m 22s): Yeah. That, that was the big thing. I mean everyone down there basically, you know, said, Hey, within two or three days, regardless of what happened, if he’s down there dad, like the vultures would be there. And that’s not from, you know, like other, like missing people. I think it was from like, you know, wildlife and, you know, that would be the signal that unfortunately, you know, Ron passed away and was there, but the birds would, would kind of be what shows everybody where, where he is. And once that didn’t happen, I mean the, it, it was interesting to me at least to interview people once that didn’t happen. The, everyone was like, he’s not here. Like, it’s just straight up. He is not here. However he left here, that’s unknown, but he’s not down in that log water flat. Brian (46m 6s): So whenever I’m steelhead fishing, you know, I’m, I’m thinking about wildlife, I’m thinking obviously about water safety. I’m thinking about, you know, not tripping and fallen as I, as I get older and a little more clumsy. I think the most dangerous thing we do is steelheaders is probably getting in and out of the boat. That tends to be a tripping hazard. But you know, there’s this whole other thing of, you know, there’s other people out there and maybe the most dangerous things that are you find in the woods aren’t on four legs, but they might be on two. And is it possible that, you know, are there, is there organized crime or any type of idea that he ran into an individual who would do him harm down there? Will (46m 44s): I think that scenario which, you know, we kind of called, you know, wrong place, wrong time with bad guys, that’s probably the one that his family member really thinks, you know, happened. That he ran into someone or some folks who for whatever reason they wanted to kidnap him or they wanted to rob him and something went wrong. I think that is the, you know, predominant theory that his family has. It certainly makes, you know, some logical sense, but you know, there was no ransom. So I mean, typically if you’re gonna kidnap somebody, it’s for, and that’s, that happens, you know, there’s gonna be a ransom involved. There was never any type of ransom call or anything like that. Will (47m 25s): You know, that part of Mexico is not a, you know, is not a, a drug transshipment point, meaning people don’t believe that there’s a lot of drugs coming up into Ishak and then going somewhere else. You know, they’re like, yeah, it’s come, you know, there’s things coming up from the south, but they’re going right by Ishak. It’s not a point that’s that people, you know, stop at. And one of the big reasons for that is there is a military base that’s like within miles of where Ron went. So it is a, it is an area that has quite a few military folks in the area. So most people I talk to just think, you know, thought like kind of a random kidnapping out in that area was pretty low probability. Will (48m 9s): But again, possible, you know, there’s nothing again about the story. There’s nothing that kind of points to anything including that. Brian (48m 16s): Jason, you’re down in Washington there. Jason (48m 18s): Yeah. Brian (48m 19s): Sasquatch reel or what do you think? Jason (48m 21s): Ha it’s funny that you ask, ’cause this is something I’ve been thinking about and I was, I just started reading this novel just the other day that opens with this discussion of sort of cryptozoology and I mean, you know, I think that it’s likely that Sasquatch isn’t real, but you know, you can’t really say what is the, the saying like the lack of proof isn’t, you know, you can’t prove a negative or, or whatever it is. And so that’s kind of where I stand. Brian (48m 55s): I bring it up because, you know, I know some people who hunt and fish and spend a lot of time in the back country who have stories that, well they haven’t seen a Sasquatch. They have stories that lead to, to believe that they may have been in the vicinity of one. And they’re, they’re interesting stories. Now the simplest answer is usually the right one. Who knows what the heck it was. But to them it, it created a question. Mark Travis and I had a discussion a couple weeks ago and I was telling him, you know, when, when I was in school, you know, being an a DHD person myself, I really didn’t excel with the regular school system. I had, I had real struggles with this idea that we were gonna do something for half an hour and then we’re gonna switch. I wanted to get into something and just go for it. Brian (49m 37s): So I, they called it the gifted program, but essentially they would give us, you know, just a couple of projects for the whole year. And I remember I did a, a really deep dive on Sasquatch encounters, and this is pre-internet of course, but I got my hands on, you know, whatever I could find detailing Sasquatch encounters. I had this big map mostly with Pacific Northwest, you know, different types of markers, this type of encounter. Someone heard something, this was a footprint, this was someone who saw something, this was a kidnapping, which actually, you know, there used to be a few of those stories, but two things stuck out to me. The first was the geographical area where most of these encounters took place was your neck of the woods and my neck of the woods, the Pacific Northwest and the rugged part of the Pacific Northwest. Brian (50m 22s): And the second thing was in the early days of, of what I was able to access, you know, kind of just post turn of the century type of thing, you know, forties and fifties, those encounters were taking place with people who were, you know, foresters or hunters or fishermen, people who were in the back country by themselves or in small groups. So if it was a situation where, you know, their buddies were trying to have a laugh at their expense, someone had, would’ve had to go to a lot of trouble to, to fake these footprints and, and put them on this, this creek bed, you know, a 10 kilometer hike from the, the nearest cabin. So they, they had some credibility to me. But one of the other things about the Sasquatch stuff that is kind of neat is, you know, we don’t have videos. Brian (51m 5s): Never seen one. I’ve never seen a cougar. I spent a lot of time in the back country. I’ve never seen a cougar, seen lots of cougar prints, lots of friends who’ve seen cougars usually scooting across the road or what have you. I’m a hundred percent confident that cougars have seen me and I’m just lucky that they didn’t want to chew on my neck at that time. So maybe with Sasquatch is, if they do exist, you know, they see us before we see them. Travis, you put me onto a, a fun podcast I’ve been paying attention to lately called the Telepathy Tapes. And for anyone listening it, it’d be probably interested to go check that out. It’s a a pretty neat show and you know, maybe there is different ways that things can communicate and know what’s going on, but when we’re talking about a, a true missing person’s case, we also have to think of, okay, well what’s the most logical explanation? Brian (51m 52s): And in this situation, maybe Ron wanted to disappear. Is that a possibility? It’s kinda Jason (51m 58s): Where my head goes. Yeah. Well, and I think that goes back to what I mentioned earlier is that it’s definitely a possibility that will, I think, investigated, you know, as, as much as he could and, you know, as much as these other possibilities. And I think maybe there’s a little part of me that thinks there’s a little part of me that thinks that might just a little bit sort of edge out the other possibilities as being most likely, but just barely. And it goes back to, you know, none of these sort of explanations, you know, there’s, there’s no evidence for any, any one of them that is that really kind of makes it stand out from the others. Jason (52m 49s): And that’s what, and you know, there’s, there were lots of other things around the story that made it difficult to come to a conclusion. And, and I think something that will, and I, you know, we spent a lot of time discussing how to present the story in a way that was responsible without sort of, you know, without sort of making too many assumptions and, and trying to sort of, you know, really push the mystery aspect of it, will really wanted to just stick to the facts and, and not try to go out on too many tangents. And I think when you do stick to those facts, you know, you just come back to this feeling of, you know, what the f happened. Jason (53m 37s): And that’s what makes it so compelling. Even, you know, it’s been 15 years now since Ron disappeared and there’s, you know, it’s never gotten any closer to resolution. Will (53m 47s): Yeah, I mean, the hardest question, interview question that I asked, and all of the people I spoke to was to Ron’s wife Cindy. And I, I had to ask, you know, I had the, the journalistic responsibility to ask her if she thought it was a possibility that Ron simply walked away, you know, which again, it’s not illegal, people can do it, people have done it. But, you know, I asked her that question point blank, and that was the hardest question that I had to pose to anyone for this entire project. And, you know, she was steadfast and her belief that that was not a possibility, as did many other folk that I spoke to, you know, who didn’t think that that was a possibility. Will (54m 29s): But again, there’s no, there’s no evidence that that really points to it. But you can’t rule it out because there are, you know, other cases of people who have self engineered their own disappearances. And sometimes it’s successful and sometimes it’s not. And there are cases where, you know, people are either caught or they come back and you know it is, it is possible. 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You can head over right now to wet fly swing.com/on DeMar, that’s O-N-D-E-M-A-R-K on DeMar right now to book your magical Missouri River trip. Brian (56m 54s): I’ve always been obsessed with this, this idea of, you know, could I just walk off onto the woods, into the woods, disappear without a trace, reinvent myself somewhere else and never be found again. It’s really unfortunate. But there was a, a murder situation in Kitimat, which is south of Terrace years ago, and the gentleman that committed the murder walked off into the woods and no one’s seen him since. And it is a very remote part of the world. And, you know, did he hop a train? Did he build a boat? There’s also, if you know, talking about great books, Jason, you’re probably familiar with the Golden Spruce, right? Yeah. So that’s, that’s a pretty interesting story too. That gentleman was last seen getting, getting in his kayak and you know, no one’s seen him since. Brian (57m 36s): What, what the heck happened? So these, these missing persons cases where people disappear and with the idea that maybe it was self engineered, you know, how do you do that? But then we go back to the Sasquatch thing. Where do we see Sasquatch or where do Sasquatch encounters typically get reported? Well, it’s in these certain type of really remote terrain around Bella Kula, north of Harrison Lake, you know, exactly the type of places that if a Sasquatch did exist, that it could hide from people. So if a guy like Ron who is gonna stick out like a Sasquatch down there, 300 pound white guy, if he truly wanted to get away, you know, the first 24 hours is gonna be really crucial. He’s gonna need to get as far away from there as possible whether, and he’s gonna probably need an accomplice, right? Brian (58m 20s): He couldn’t have done that on his own. He would’ve need someone to come pick him up on his boat, right? Will (58m 23s): Yeah. I mean that, you know, to do something like that. And I, I’ve talked to, you know, I mean I talked to law enforcement, you know, the guy who investigated the whole situation who is from the Netherlands, and you know what he told me point blank was, number one, it’s massively complex and number two, it’s massively expensive. Those are the two things that, you know, would have to, you know, you know, you’d have to kind of solve for. One thing that makes it less complex is, you know, the proximity of where Ron was to the Belize border. I mean, that’s something that, you know, geographically, you know, I mean, it is right there on the border and I think I literally took a skiff from Belize up into that area and you know, there’s nothing really there. Will (59m 13s): So it is, the proximity to Belize is something that I considered at least that was, that was something there. But yeah, you know, it didn’t seem that, you know, at least from his wife’s per perspective, from Cindy’s perspective, that there was any like massive amount of money that was missing his passports were still in the hotel room. So, you know, it’s, again, as Jason said, you know, you just don’t know. Brian (59m 37s): So that book, the Golden Spruce, John Valent, I believe also wrote the Tiger Book, you know, two really interesting books, but they both kind of tie into with this discussion a little bit because the gentleman from the Golden Spruce went missing, whether it was an unfortunate accident at sea or whether or not he disappeared, no one’s seen him since. And then, you know, there’s the tiger thing, and geographically where that set is really interesting to me because it’s that part of Asia that looks similar to northern parts of British Columbia, but you’ve got cats now. A house cat is one thing, but you know, a seven or 800 pound orange colored tiger that hangs out in a, in a snowy forest, you know, cougars, cougars are scary. Brian (1h 0m 19s): But you know, that’s, you know, to me that’s like next to a polar bear. That’s probably the most terrifying creature there is. But those, those saltwater crocodiles will, are they something that you’re, when you’re fishing in these tropical environments, are they something that you’re concerned about Will (1h 0m 31s): A little bit here and there? You know, I certainly in Ascension Bay where I fished before and in Belize, you know, you see them, they’re not massive. They’re usually like tucked up in a mangrove and a lot of times we’re fishing out of a boat, so we’re, you know, we’re on the bow of a skif, so we’re not in the water per se. So you’re, you know, they’re not an issue there. You do, you know, you do think about them a little bit when you’re walking around a flat, you know, if you’re, if you’re covering a lot of ground on a flat, you know, you’re, you’re thinking about that a little bit. You’re also thinking about, you know, stepping on a ray. So you wanna have a bit of, of awareness always when you’re, when you’re out of the boat, that kind of thing. You know, lemon sharks, little black dip sharks, those kinds of things. Will (1h 1m 13s): But I did, you know, one thing, you know, I’ve never seen like a big, big one and in doing the research for, for this story, I did kind of go down the rabbit hole on saltwater crocs and, and attacks. And there’s a whole website that’s actually, they try to keep track of how many human attacks happen, you know, in Asia, in Central America, south America. And I did come across one video, I think I sent it to Jason of a crock down in Ascension Bay. That was massive. I had never seen anything like that. I know right where it was, it was like a, if you’ve been down to Ascension Bay and you cross the bridge south of Tulum into the area going down to Punta Allen, you cross this bridge and there’s a YouTube video out there of a crock. Will (1h 2m 1s): And I was like, wow. I had no idea that something that big was in that area. So, yeah, you know, kind of concerning. So, you know, spatial awareness, I guess, Brian (1h 2m 11s): Travis, when you’re out, out hunting, you know, obviously you’re, you’re the predator, but have you found yourself in situations where you felt that you were, you were actually actually the prey? Travis (1h 2m 20s): Sure, yeah. Yeah, A few times. I remember one time we were on a moose hunt, limited entry moose hunt. And I went up a couple days early, a buddy of mine who was organizing it doesn’t believe in dropping pins or GPS coordinates, he just gives kind of verbal directions of where this place would be hours out into the bush. And so I got a trailer in tow and I figure, you know, my son was, I think 11 years old at the time. I said, tell you what, I’m gonna take the side by side out, you drive it, I’m gonna give you a radio, you get ahead. I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to back this trailer down this place, but you know, we, we got some calms going here, we’re going through. He found a spot parked the trailer, sun’s going down. Travis (1h 3m 2s): And I mean, it got dark real quick. And as I’m in there trying to make some food for my son, a nice big black bear tries to get inside the, the back, the converted utility trailer that we’re, we’re sleeping in. So that was an interesting one. And I, I’ve had bears mama bear and, and cub 10 yards away from me. And you think you can get that rifle off your shoulder quick? Well, I don’t care how quick you are, it’s not quick enough whether that close, that one with the bear trying to get in, everything sorted out in the morning. We were checking it out. It had paw prints all around the side of the, the trailer ripped the seats outta the side by side. Travis (1h 3m 43s): I heard it doing that. I went out there with my shotgun and it, I had a head torch on which batteries were dying, barely illuminated the front side, couldn’t see anything but these giant glowing eyes. And it must have been up on its back legs on the propping itself up on the side by side. It turned out we had a gut pile right beside us in the area that we were camping in. And had we done a little bit more of a Iraqi around the area prior to, I would’ve said, this is probably not the best place for us to be setting up. We just popped ourselves right into an area which would be very enticing to a bear, which it was. So you brought up a bunch of different things that you’re talking about. Travis (1h 4m 26s): I took a few notes and I didn’t want to miss ’em ’cause I thought there could be some interesting points for the listeners. First one, as an aside, I think in Washington, I think it’s Spokane. There’s actually a law that says you’re not allowed to shoot Sasquatch. There’s no hunting allowed. And I think that was enacted because they didn’t want some guy in a costume to get shot at at the one of the areas there. They actually have something on the books about Sasquatch. I think there’s a lot of value to a debrief like this to like down the path provides where the general public can be made aware of situations where things have gone awry and maybe they can help bring closure to the family. Travis (1h 5m 6s): I don’t know if you guys have seen that Netflix series Don’t f with Cats, but this guy basically killed a few people here in, in Canada, but prior to it, he was a and torturing cats and he did it on the internet. And this online group dedicated their life and got more people in, not because of the people, but because of this whole cat situation that was going on. And they use Osint or open source intelligence to find, I think it was Luca, Magda I think was the name of the individual who was doing this. So huge power to the way that you guys are presenting just the information that you’re not tainting it with your own personal biases. Travis (1h 5m 46s): And I’d say that’d probably be a, a hard thing to do, Brian, you’re talking about going down and you fished too late and you ran into mama bear in the Cub, and whoops, there’s another cub in the security and law enforcement world. They call the rule of one plus one. If there’s one bad guy, there’s gonna be two. If there’s, if you find one weapon on a person, there’s gonna be two. And if non-security individuals can keep that mindset of one plus one, whoop, my spidey senses went off, there’s a threat or there’s something that’s outside of normal, look around, get your head on a swivel, where’s the second one? Maybe there isn’t. But that mindset will definitely help you. Travis (1h 6m 27s): And you talked about situational awareness. The listeners may or may not be aware of Colonel Jeff Cooper, who famously kind of put together some situational awareness protocol that the military was using. But he put into a color code system, white, yellow, orange, red, and black. And it provides a little bit of a mental and visual indicator for an individual and their own situational awareness. A situational awareness of white is essentially that of a victim. You’ve got the situational awareness of a victim, you’re the person on their phone, head down, walking down the street, you’ve got no clue what’s going on around you yellow, okay, we’re aware, we’re gutter heads up, we’re looking at what’s going on around us. Travis (1h 7m 11s): And that does a couple things that allows us to be aware of what’s going on. But it also sends a message to those two legged predators that you’re alert that you’re not a soft target. Orange you’ve identified a threat, red fight is on. And black would be, you’ve succumbed to what’s going on around you. You’re so overwhelmed, you don’t know how to respond. And the benefit of knowing black is if you find yourself in a situation where you’re that overwhelmed, you know, you can deescalate that, ah, I’ve identified ’em in black, I can bring it back down. So those are a few of the different points that, that I jotted down while you’re talking there. And then roleplaying, the other thing that people can do, what would I do if I ran into a bear? Travis (1h 7m 54s): I was, as I was coming down this trail, what would I do if somebody wanted to do me harm as I’m going back to my vehicle? The more we mentally role play and mentally prepare for these events that may never happen, the more likely we are to react in a way that’s gonna be beneficial to ourselves. Brian (1h 8m 11s): So to expand on that a little bit, and thinking about down the path, and specifically season two, the client there, you know, he really was, he wasn’t on his phone, but he, he really was pretty close to white there, wasn’t he? Will (1h 8m 24s): Yes, but I mean, I would say I’ve done that a million times, you know, not a million times, but quite a few times where, you know, there’s a level of, you know, trust that you just have to kind of put out into the world if you decide that you’re gonna go on an adventure or you know, a saltwater mission or whatever you wanna call it. And one thing I wanna point out is I don’t want, like, I never wanted down the path to do two things. Number one, I don’t wanna like scare people out of traveling and doing rad shit because like, that’s the opposite of what I wanna do. You know, I, I wanna encourage people to go out and to travel and to explore and find new species and do all those things that, you know, I think, you know, it’s at the heart of of travel. Will (1h 9m 7s): So I never wanted to do that. And number two, I never wanna scare people about some of these great locations like Belize or Mexico. I mean, I’m going back, I, I was just in Mexico like a month ago. I’m going back down to Mexico and a couple months from now. So I also don’t, I never want down the path to be some type of, you know, scare tactic for a certain location like Belize or, or Mexico or The Bahamas. You know, they’re great places. They’re wonderful people. These things are like one-off situations. You know, I, I can’t say that, you know Gary, you know that, that Gary Swank was a white ’cause I don’t know what was in his head at the time, and there’s just no, I mean, it’s like, that’s trying to be like, you know, you just walk across the street and you get hit by a bus, like, were you white? Will (1h 9m 54s): You know, were you in that kind of, you know, that situation I guess you got hit by a bus, you know, it, it’s that random of a thing. So I wanna, in defense of travel and you know, Gary Swank in that situation for sure, it’s just like, man, sometimes you’re at the wrong place at the wrong time and there’s no way that you would’ve known, you know, that kind of thing was going on when you booked somebody. I certainly wouldn’t have. And you know, I certainly have put myself in way, you know, more precarious situations than that. Brian (1h 10m 23s): Yeah. You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t expect him to quiz the guide and say, Hey, do you, do you have any type of beef with people that would involve them showing up with a firearm while we’re out fishing? Will (1h 10m 32s): No, you could never, never that. There’s no research that could’ve got you into that situ, you know, outta that situation other than, you know, you, you know, you make a diff totally different decision in the decision tree and say, Hey, I’m gonna go with a guide service that has been completely vetted by a, you know, by a travel company. Still, even if you do that, you’re not eliminating, you know, a hundred percent eliminating the risk. You’re just, you know, taking it down considerably versus just going with somebody that you’ve never come across before. Brian (1h 11m 2s): You know, with Jason and Will being super aware of, of how these stories and these situations transpired, has it affected the way that you travel and, and the decisions you make when you’re, you’re out in the back country fishing? Jason (1h 11m 15s): I’ll let Jason go. Yeah, I don’t know if these specific stories have, I mean, for one thing, I, I haven’t spent as much time in those kinds of locations as Will has, you know, my tropical fishing experience is a bit more limited. I’ve been to The Bahamas, I’ve been to the Keys, you know, but when I was in The Bahamas, I was with a pretty well known lodge and actually Andros South that I think Bain was a part of. And you know, I I would say that when I’m fishing closer to home or you know, around the west or up in bc, I think that my level of preparedness has to do more with just what I’ve learned growing up and, and just being in this area and knowing what some of the dangers are and knowing what it’s like to find yourself out in the woods after dark without a headlamp and how much the situation can just really change and really become a lot more difficult if you put yourself in that situation. Jason (1h 12m 22s): And another thing is, I’ve gotten a lot of this sort of preparation knowledge from my wife who is a mountaineer and an alpinist and who, she has this thing called the 10 Essentials, which is a part of her, you know, if she’s going to climb a mountain or if she’s even just going to go on a day hike, you know, she has these 10 things and I can’t remember that, you know, each thing, Travis, you might know exactly what the 10 essentials are, but it’s essentially, you know, have some way to make fire, have a light with you, have some form of navigation, have some food and water, you know, have a knife with you, you know, having just, and it’s something that it’s a little kit that you, you know, first aid obviously have this thing that you can easily grab and throw in your fishing pack anytime. Jason (1h 13m 14s): You know, if I’m just going to fish in town, I’m obviously not going to worry about that maybe. But if I’m going somewhere and I do, you know, one thing I really love about fly fishing is going and finding new places to fish. So I’m often going to places even within an hour or two of my home that I’ve never been to before, you know, up in the woods or on some river or whatever. And so I think, you know, having that thing that you can throw in your fishing pack and, and be prepared for, you know, things that might come up that’s really important. And then I think the other part, and Travis, you know, went into this, is just letting people know where you’re going, whether that’s friends or family or whoever, my wife, anytime she’s going on, you know, she’ll go and spend a couple days up climbing a mountain and in the climbing community at least they make these very, very detailed trip plans that explain when they’re going to start, what trailhead they’re gonna start at, what sort of route they’re going to be taking, you know, what would be the most likely sort of search and rescue agency that you would contact if they went missing when, when to contact search and rescue, if you don’t hear from them by a certain time. Jason (1h 14m 33s): And these things are very detailed and, and very long, and she does that anytime she goes out on one of these trips. And, you know, maybe might not need as much detail for a, you know, fishing trip to, you know, the upper hoe river, but still like some amount of detail and some amount of letting people know what your plans are and when you plan to be, you know, back in service and, and able to call somebody. And so that, you know, if you do, if something does happen and you’re out in the middle of nowhere with a broken leg, you know, 24 hours isn’t gonna pass before they, you know, somebody starts looking for you. Jason (1h 15m 13s): So I I, I think that for me has been the more, the more important part of it, you know, in terms of just thinking about being prepared for fishing trips and really any trip away from home where, where something can go wrong. But yeah, I don’t know will have, have you experienced that with, with reporting on this stuff and Will (1h 15m 35s): Yeah, I think, you know, like anything, right? Like, I mean I, you know, when you’re younger you do some things that are a little bit, you know, more wild and, and you know, carefree and you know, I probably wouldn’t operate in that same, or I don’t operate in that same manner anymore. You know, to the point of, you know, like the example I said, you know, talking to a bartender in Placencia and then getting a few names and directions and walking up and knocking on a door and you know, the next morning I’m out on a boat with somebody, I have no idea who that is. So like that kind of thing, you know, at this point. And, and part of it is technology, right? So now I love going to places where, you know, there’s not a lot of information about, you know, because there’s gonna be less fishing pressure, but I can do some things like, you know, talk to the person where I’m staying, Hey, do you know anybody? Will (1h 16m 25s): They might not be an angler, but they drive a boat. Okay, cool, you get a WhatsApp number, you make contact with that person. You might not speak that same language, but there’s Google Translate. And so you can start to like ahead of time, you know, create a communication and a relationship with the person you’re gonna go out fishing with and get a feel like, do they actually know what they’re talking about? Do they have, you know, do they have the right skill sets to take you where you want to go? And that’s actually turned out to be pretty fun. I’ve done that on a few trips lately where, you know, I might talk to a guy that I’m going fishing with two weeks ahead of time and we know what we’re going after, we know kind of where I wanna go, where I wanna explore what I don’t wanna do. Will (1h 17m 6s): And so that, that’s probably one of the biggest changes when I’m out, you know, in South America or Central America or you know, the Caribbean, that kind of thing. I do a lot more prep work with the person I’m gonna go with. So I think the answer is yes. And then to your point here, you know, up in BC I’m fishing a lot on my own now and I way over communicate with, with my wife Sarah, you know, I’m like, Hey, this is where I’m going, this is where I’m gonna be fishing, this is when I’m gonna come out. And, you know, and she’s always like, well, you know, I’m not gonna need this. And I’d be like, no, you’re probably not gonna need it, but you have it here in case I don’t show back up and that’s what I’m fishing on my own. So yeah, you know, you, you just start to be, to do those little things that, you know, kind of would contemplate a worst case scenario if something were to go wrong. Will (1h 17m 53s): And again, but it’s not like, you know, you’re not gonna not go fishing. So Brian (1h 17m 57s): Travis, it seems that, you know, when we, when we make these plans and we have this level of communication, and obviously Jason Mountaineers are, are doing this with the added consideration of, of weight, right? And, you know, they don’t wanna be stuck in the mountains for extra time. So when you make these plans ahead of time, what you’re doing is you’re facilitating a timely search or rescue effort, aren’t you? Travis (1h 18m 18s): Yeah, a hundred percent sure are. And you know, there’s always cool pieces of kit that we can bring along with us. There’s all, they got prepper forums, there’s all these different things that people can have. But I, I’d say the most important thing that somebody can have is some knowledge. And to be, to be forewarned is to be forearmed. If that’s, is that it is that even a saying, forearmed will, I really like your point about to not dissuade people, to not make them fearful from coming in and, and seeing these sort of events because with enough knowledge you’ll realize that these are sort of extraordinary situations. These aren’t the norm, but there are lessons that we can learn from this. Travis (1h 18m 59s): Now, if you’re out in a place where you can carry some sort of olem, capsicum or a bear spray, that’s a fantastic tool. ’cause it works on two-legged predators. It works on four-legged predators. If it means a difference between your survival or are we allowed to be using this on two-legged predators? They can, the states maybe in certain states and BC you can’t. But I know they’re saying I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. There are things that you can bring with you. One of the biggest things somebody can bring is just that communication piece. Our phones, our new satellite enabled phones, as of I was out hunting in an area with zero cell service and a pop-up kept coming up, do you wanna send a text with satellite? Travis (1h 19m 42s): Do you wanna send a text with satellite? I’m like, what is this thing? Right? I’m like, I don’t have any cell coverage. And, and my wife, she’s like, Hey, I’m sending a text message with a satellite with our new iPhone. I mean, there really isn’t a, a reason why nowadays why people can’t have some sort of a personal locator beacon or a, a satellite enabled communication device or their phone. I’d say that communication piece would be a, a very useful one for helping effective self rescue and pretty lightweight. Will (1h 20m 12s): And for the record, when I’m here in BC I typically have two bear sprays on me, one on my hip, one in my bag, and I did just self detonate one for the first time, like in my face takeout earlier this fall. So that was, that was pleasant. Travis (1h 20m 31s): Yeah, that’s not fun when you inhale. I actually detonated one in this podcast studio, but we were doing hot wing challenges and I brought out the bear spray in a bag full of wings there. But yeah, breathing that stuff in, never fun. Will (1h 20m 43s): No, no, no, no. Brian (1h 20m 45s): So Travis, you’ve had a, a wide array of podcast guests, you’re not really stuck on one, one theme. Can you give us some three or four of your favorites so that if anyone’s listening and they wanna check out the Silver Core podcast, we can kind of steer ’em to specific episodes? Travis (1h 20m 58s): You know, I don’t know if I can label my favorites because it gets difficult to be able to disassociate the before talk and the after talk, which of course, that’s where all the, the juicy tidbits tend to come out. The during talk can be very good. But we’ve had some amazing guests on here. We’ve had Navy Seals and Green Berets and SAS Operation Nimrod, where they stormed the Iranian embassy. We’ve had you on here. I mean, the Silver Corps podcast is really a story podcast, and it’s about people who are bringing positivity, they’re pushing their boundaries, they are bringing something into the world that’s gonna be interesting. Travis (1h 21m 38s): And learning about those personality types and finding out they’re just like you or I, they’re just putting in a little bit extra sometimes in different little areas. Brian (1h 21m 48s): Yeah, I got this actually, I, I referenced Richard earlier, Richard Harrington at the River Rambler Podcast, and you know, rivers, the River Rambler podcast in a lot of ways is similar to this one. It’s just talking to people who love to fish and getting their stories, but podcasting’s all about stories and, and Jason, your, your podcast takes that to another level because, you know, you’re, you’re talking to writers who, who write these stories. So it’s, it’s essentially, it’s kind of multimedia, isn’t it? Jason (1h 22m 12s): Yeah, yeah. That, you know, I did the Fly Tapes and now with the Fly Fish Journal, you know, this last summer we started a podcast getting into it a little bit late, but called Side Channels that it kind of picks up where the fly tapes left off. ’cause soon after I started the Fly Tapes, my wife and I had our, had a kid who he’s six now. But that kind of put a, put a bit of a damper on things back then. But yeah, and so with the Side Channels podcast now, it, it’s a lot of the same thing. And it’s like you’re saying, I think that people’s stories are so interesting and so compelling that, you know, there’s just no shortage of what you can do with the medium and, you know, the, the stories you can get and the conversations you can have. Jason (1h 23m 6s): We, I talked to David James Duncan this past summer, which was just a phenomenal opportunity. He was so gracious and, and so much fun to talk with. But you know, everybody else, whether it’s a famous author like David James Duncan, or you know, a fishing lodge owner in The Bahamas, people’s stories are compelling and their, their backgrounds and how they got to where they are. And that’s, that’s what I love about it. That’s what I’ve always loved about podcasting as a medium. I mean, obviously I love the, you know, the, the sort of investigative journalism side of it too, like Will did with Down the Path. But, you know, my, the thing that I always fall back on is these, you know, more conversational interviews and just learning about people. Jason (1h 23m 51s): People are endlessly interesting to me. And, and I I like to find out what makes ’em, what makes ’em tick. Brian (1h 23m 59s): And your magazine and, and obviously magazines these days, there’s less of them than there used to be, but your, your magazines, you know, are, are still, still thriving. What is it about Fly Fish Journal that sets it apart? Is it, is it the writing? Is it the photography? Or is it the, the combination of both working together? I Jason (1h 24m 16s): Think it’s definitely the, the combination of both working together. So, you know, I’m, I’m the editor. I’m essentially responsible for the words, and then my colleague, Kobe Vota is the photo editor. And we work really closely to curate each issue and curate, you know, the stories and the photography and or art that will accompany each story. We put a lot of effort into that. And I think the thing that really sets it apart and sets any print publication apart that is still thriving and still doing well in this day and age, is creating something that you, you want to hold it in your hands. Jason (1h 25m 5s): You know, you’re creating something that you don’t want to look at on a screen. If you’re looking at it on a screen, something is being lost or, or it’s something that can just easily be found online. And so what’s the point of, you know, buying a physical object? And so we’re, you know, I we’re, we’re making something that the best way to experience it is holding it in your hands, sitting on your couch or sitting next to a river around campfire, wherever you’re reading it, you, you want to be flipping through it and having that tactile experience with it. And I think that, that, yeah, bringing it back, the, the combination of those two things together, the, the visual and the the words are really what has allowed us to, you know, keep going and, and keep thriving. Jason (1h 25m 54s): And it’s what makes it fun. I mean, I, even now, I don’t get to see each physical issue before anybody else sees it, because I don’t, I don’t work up in Bellingham where, you know, it’s made and where the, it gets shipped, so it gets shipped, each new issue gets shipped to me. And even though I know what is in each issue, I still get excited to get it in the mail and open it and hold, you know, look at the cover and flip through it and, you know, all this stuff that I’ve read, you know, maybe dozens of times by the time it comes to me in the mailbox, you know, it still is exciting to me because it’s this, you know, it’s this great physical thing that our team has worked really hard to create and it’s thanks to contributors, I I should say, like Will, will, has contributed since the very first issue of the Fly Fish Journal like 16 years ago, will has been a regular contributor to the Fly Fish Journal. Jason (1h 26m 54s): And it wouldn’t be without people like Will and the many other writers and artists and photographers who go out there and find the stories and write the stories and take the pictures and make the art. It wouldn’t be, you know, possible without the just wealth of creative people that the fly fishing world has. So thanks to them as well. It, it’s a fun job. I’m, I’m a pretty lucky guy, you gotta say. Brian (1h 27m 23s): So for your subscribers, how many issues do they receive each year? Jason (1h 27m 27s): Four issues each year, and I believe that we now, if it hasn’t started at starting soon, but subscribers now too, so you get four issues each year, spring, fall, winter, summer. And then you also, if you’re a subscriber, get digital access to our entire archive, I believe, don’t quote me on that, but I’m pretty sure that’s what we’re doing now. So, you know, you might read something from Will in a issue coming up and then think, man, that, you know, that was a great story. I wonder what else this guy has done. And you can go back to, you know, volume one, issue one and see the story that Will did there in like 2009 or, you know, 2013 or whatever. Jason (1h 28m 9s): So that’s a great feature that, you know, we’ve been working really hard to digitize it all so people can have that access if they want to go back and see. And, and there’s still back issues available to purchase as well. So, but yeah, four issues per year. Brian (1h 28m 25s): So essentially that’s evergreen content at that point, right? Jason (1h 28m 28s): Yeah, that’s definitely what we shoot for. We’re, you know, we will hit sort of current events here and there, you know, conservation topics are often a little more, you know, temporal and, and whatnot. But a lot of the content really is very evergreen. You know, there’s stories that I love to go back and read from, you know, 10 years ago or, you know, six years ago. There are stories that they still resonate. And that’s definitely, definitely the goal is, is evergreen content rather than really hitting the sort of current event type thing. Brian (1h 29m 7s): I’ve got one of my most valued possessions, so I am 51 years old, born in 1973, and I remember as a young kid, you know, always being obsessed with Phish. I got a picture in my office of, of me at four years old holding my first trout that I caught in Okanagan Lake while we’re kone fishing. And I, I remember the lures, I remember, you know, we were trolling, spinning, glows for the KI remember the bright colors. And I just, I’d get excited to go to Woodward’s to the tackle section, you know, I was just obsessed with fishing. And my dad had a collection of old fishing and hunting magazines. I think there’s a few different ones mostly about BC not like Western Fish and Game. And some of these would have these great illustrations in ’em, photography for sure. Brian (1h 29m 50s): But great illustrations. And the illustrations somehow stuck with me more than the photographs. And there was a style of journalism that was present in these older magazines that was very much about an adventure. It was like a, a travel log of a trip that someone made and, you know, it just, it took you on a journey. And I still have these magazines, you know, from the fifties, sixties, seventies, and, and a rubber made. I go back to them and, you know, the way they, I can smell ’em right now, the way they smell. You know, I’ll never throw these things away. And the problem with, you know, reading stuff online is, it’s not the same, is it? So to produce a magazine or a journal, a book, something like that, that you’re going to, you know, treasure and hold and keep going back to, you know, I think one of the things at the lodge that it has to happen organically over time, but one of the things that gets better every year at the lodge is our library. Brian (1h 30m 41s): Those days when the river blows out or people aren’t fishing and you know, they go find some interesting stuff and, you know, I don’t have those magazines in the library ’cause I’m, I’m not quite willing to share those just yet, but, you know, but I do have a bunch of other magazines. We talked Jason about Tom Perrow’s magazine and I had Tom on as a guest. Actually that episode just came out today. If anyone’s wondering the timeline on this stuff. That episode, here we are in January. That episode just dropped this morning. That’s Tom Perro and John McMillan and Tom used to produce this, this really cool book, I’ll call it a book, it was a magazine, I believe it was called Wild Steelhead Atlantic Salmon. And it, it was like 16 inches by 12 inches or something. Brian (1h 31m 23s): It was like bigger than a, it was a cumbersome magazine, but, but it really created this, this really neat vehicle to transport you to these far off places with these large photographs and everything. I imagine it was horrifically expensive to produce and cumbersome to ship and all the above and that’s probably why it was short-lived. But, but I have a bunch of those and we do have those in our library and I know our guests love to, to dip into those. So, so I really appreciate anybody, Jason, like yourself who’s, who’s documenting the culture and doing it in a way that’s tactile rather than, you know, just online. And I mean, I, I wonder about all this stuff online, you know, know, we, we snap all these photos on our, on our iPhones and maybe we look at ’em again and then they go off, they disappear into the cloud. Brian (1h 32m 5s): There’s so much clutter up in space or wherever they keep this stuff now, right? And meanwhile, in the old days, you’d take a photo and you’d keep that thing, you’d write on the back who it was and you’d go back to it. So it’s this sort of disposable media stuff is, is a little unsettling. And I, I think at some point maybe we will go back to, to actually printing, printing photos. Travis, I know you’re a big, big gear guy. This is something I I noticed about Silver Core. Obviously you’re, you’re training people, but you’re always kind of early in on any new technology. Is there anything that you’re carrying now in the back country or fishing that people might be interested to hear about? Travis (1h 32m 40s): Well, calm device, I mean I’ve, I’ve done the GPS mountaineering, backcountry skiing, really your, your phone’s gonna be the thing that they’re getting better and better. They’ve got their waterproof, their IPX ratings, so that would be the one thing that’s generally always with me. And now that it’s got satellite comms available with it, I always carry a knife. Doesn’t matter where I am in the world, I’ll have a knife very often I’ll have a flashlight with me too and which could be used as a striking object if I’m concerned about two legged predators. I will research the laws for the knife and I’ve never had to use it other than a tool, which I’ve used it as a tool a heck of a lot. Travis (1h 33m 23s): I think. What am I carrying right now? It’s a spider co PM two, one of their, their their newer steels. Aside from that, I try to go as minimal as possible if I’m going out into the back country, I really like what Jason was talking about, have a little bit of a kit that you can just grab and go with you. I’ve always got something in my vehicle. I’ve got a first aid kit in my vehicle. I’ve got the ability to stay warm if I need to, some sort of shelter, some hydration, be able to fix up injuries if I have it, be able to light a fire if I need to be able to do that. But all of the cool kit in the world, again is pretty useless if you don’t have the knowledge. And so being able to learn ways to start fires as minimally as possible and then carry the nice little piazzo igniter torch so you can get something going. Travis (1h 34m 11s): But the knowledge piece would be the one that I would encourage people more so than all of the cool kit, even though it’s easy to get stuck in that trap. Brian (1h 34m 19s): So investing in training is investing in yourself. Travis (1h 34m 21s): Training’s available everywhere. The, we just happen to curate it. You can go on YouTube and you can find everything for free. You can go on the internet and go through AI and start finding these things are free. I think the reason why people will pay for training or they will, the reason we even have influencers out there is ’cause they’re information concierges. You say, I like that person, I like what they have to say. I don’t have to sort through all of this other stuff in order to find out. I can likely trust their opinion on it. But yes, training would be what I would say would be the one that I would recommend to people. Brian (1h 34m 53s): Excellent. And will you, you’re talking about some upcoming fishing trips, some warm water, salt water stuff. Are you gonna be writing articles about these trips or is this pure recreation? Will (1h 35m 2s): I typically can find a story in a lot of my, my travels and fishing. And so it always kind of depends on, on what happens. I do have a trip coming up to Mexico again that I’m looking forward to, which is gonna be really focused on trying to catch a permit, which I’ve been really challenged with over my, over my lifetime, let’s put it that way. But, but yeah, so you know, usually, usually on those trips I can some something needle happen and, and my philosophy is that if something fun or interesting happens that, you know, I think other people typically are interested in hearing about it and you know, that kind of thing. Will (1h 35m 43s): So I try to keep it pretty simple. But yeah, I’m sure, I’m sure my words will continue to be on pages at some point. They better be. Brian (1h 35m 52s): Before we wrap up, I’ve gotta hit each with a question and we’re gonna talk a little bit about the fishing that you’re looking forward to doing in the coming year. But before we jump into that and, and there’s no way we can put a bow on it because it’s a great unknown. Are there any final thoughts about Ron Shera and will we learn more or is, is, is all the information we’re gonna get out there already? So let’s start there. Will, Will (1h 36m 16s): You know, I put it out there in the podcast, you know, an invitation to anyone who knew Ron, who might’ve been down in Ishak in April of 2009, who had any information, it’s still an open invitation. We could have a conversation on the record or we could have a, a conversation off the record, which means that, you know, I wouldn’t, you know, it would be in confidence. That is an open invitation. I continue to go back to see if anything ever pops up. But right now, I I kind of, I’ve exhausted my, my efforts I guess with what I’ve tried and who, you know, I always, I always end my interviews with people asking two things. Will (1h 37m 1s): I I always ask, is there any questions that I should have asked you that I didn’t ask you? That’s one. And then I always ask, who should I talk to? Who else should I talk to? Who else might know something? And I, I feel, you know, that’s a good way for me to always wrap up my interviews. And based on that I kind of, I got got to the end of the road and I’d love to hear more. If anybody has more information out there and you can still submit thoughts and ideas or questions through the little info at, there’s a spot on the website at down the path podcast.com where you can, you know, if you have information or you have questions, you can submit it anonymously as well. Will (1h 37m 44s): So I’m very open to it, but at this point, you know, my efforts have kind of ceased unless something pops up. Brian (1h 37m 51s): So Jason, what I I I hit you earlier asking you if you’d got any, any comments, theories from, from people who checked out the article online and obviously same to Will. I was hoping someone was gonna tell me that they, they’d seen this guy down in Chile or something, you know, fishing for Brown trout in Patagonia. There hasn’t been anybody any reported sightings has there, there Will (1h 38m 11s): Was one reported sighting in 2010, I believe, down in Argus Key Belize. And that was actually, that’s what brought a law enforcement officer from the Netherlands all the way to Belize to investigate that. And there was no, no conclusive identification made there at all. So that’s it. Jason (1h 38m 33s): Yeah, I forgot about that. When I think about the story and how inconclusive it is, I think about Ron’s wife in Texas. I don’t know if she’s still in Texas, but you know, if anything it would be great if, if she could get some closure and you know, just kind of know what happened. And I, I think that’s, you know, there’s a, there’s a few, I mean not a few, but you know, there’s people out there who really cared about Ron and for those people at least aside from hopefully Ron is alive somewhere, but, you know, just allowing those people to get some closure, I think it’s easy to kinda forget how much this story I is their story as well. Jason (1h 39m 20s): And that’s a real big part of this tragedy. So Brian (1h 39m 24s): We’re here talking about it essentially for education and maybe entertainment. But yeah, there’s a real human element to this And it is a tragedy and you know, you like to think that the guy’s waiting a flat somewhere casting to, to permit hiding out. But you know, that’s, that’s probably not the case. But I would encourage anybody listening to go, go check out the episode, check out the online story. It’s really, really well done. And like I said, it was, it was really my introduction to, to podcasting and that style of podcast. So here’s what we’re gonna do. I’m gonna abandon my questions I was gonna ask you ’cause Will, your questions are so damn good. I’m gonna get you guys to, to each answer the, the questions that will put out there, but I also want you to tell me two things. Brian (1h 40m 6s): The first is the phishing you’re looking forward to doing this year and second if anybody wants to connect with you, anyone wants to get a magazine subscription, book some online training with Travis, check out Will’s new article, how do they get ahold of you? Will, we’ll start with you then we’ll go to Jason and then we’ll go to Travis. So I’m, I’m hitting you with your own, your own two interview wrap up questions. Go for it. Who should I talk to next and what should I ask you that I haven’t asked you? Those are great questions. Will (1h 40m 31s): Oh man. Well you can, I’m on Instagram, I just kind of plot along there with some photos and such. That’s will underscore rise. RIZE, not RICE so will underscore RIZE Instagram. And probably the best way, if it’s like a down the path thing, go to down the path podcast.com and then you can submit a, you could submit a question there and I always, always, always write back, I’ve never not written someone back. So you will definitely get in contact with me if you submit through that, through that little forum on down the path podcast.com. Brian (1h 41m 9s): Okay. And so you, the questions for you, what should have I asked you and who else do you know that I should be trying to get on here? Will (1h 41m 15s): You should have asked me, Hey Will, do you wanna come up and fish the cheena? And I would, I would say yes, Brian, yes, that would be the answer to that question. And then, oh, who else should you talk to? I don’t, geez, I gotta think about that Babababababa. Oh, so many, so many great people. You mean for your podcast for this? Brian (1h 41m 39s): Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. Who, who else should we have for a guest? Will (1h 41m 42s): Oh gosh, you know, a guy who’s got a gazillion stories and you could just have ’em on strictly to talk about Brown trout is Kirk Dieter great guy, definitely has helped me out along the way. He’s in one of the episodes of, of Down the Path. He, he does a reading for me in the, in the podcast, but he’s got a gazillion great stories and probably caught more brown trout on more continents around the world than anyone else I know that I could kinda speak to. So yeah, Dieter is an awesome, awesome guy. Also, I would say Jason brought him up a great buddy of mine, Voda who is the, he’s the what photography director there at at FFJ Photo Jason (1h 42m 29s): Editor. Will (1h 42m 30s): Yeah. Get coppi on the show. Coppi Rocks. Brian (1h 42m 33s): Right on. And you know, you talked about your upcoming saltwater trips, but what other fishing trips do you have planned this year that you’re looking forward to? Will (1h 42m 40s): Well, I’m interested to get, to get up and do some steelhead fishing here in bc. Really looking forward to that. And then, you know, yeah I got, I got a trip, the salt trip coming up in, in May and then just, you know, maybe getting over and exploring some of the islands that are close by. I don’t talk about where I go too much. Jason (1h 43m 2s): Yeah, yeah, Will (1h 43m 4s): We’ll leave it at that. Brian (1h 43m 5s): Beautiful, right on Jason, so same two questions for you. Jason (1h 43m 9s): Well, I don’t know what else you could have asked me. I, I, this was a lot of fun. So thanks for Will (1h 43m 15s): Jason. Do you wanna come and fish the Chena with Brian and I? Yeah, Jason (1h 43m 19s): I’ll, I’ll take, I’ll take Will’s question people to talk to. I, I, my good friend another fly fish journal contributor Greg Fitz who he, he’s down here in Olympia as well. He’s one of the best steelhead anglers I know and works for Trout Unlimited kind of West coast. Really great guy, great stories, great mind for conservation and a lot of the conservation issues up and down the west coast. I think Great would be a good guy. If you haven’t had Dylan Tona on another fantastic storyteller. Dylan is full of stories, he’s spent tons of time up into your neck of the woods over the years. Jason (1h 44m 1s): I mean, he goes up there every fall. Dylan’s a great guy. So yeah, I think that’s a, that’s a couple people that I would, I would recommend chatting with. As far as fishing coming up for me, I’m actually going to Argentina next week for the first time. Really looking forward to that. I’m going to Terra Dego for Sea Run Browns and then up to Jurassic Lake for a few days. So I’ve got that going on a little, little further afield. And as far as just kind of closer to home, looking forward to just fishing some of my home, you know, steelhead Rivers, whose names I won’t say and, and just getting out and the local flows. Jason (1h 44m 42s): Yeah, yeah, just, just getting out and, and looking for a couple steelhead this season, hopefully that I won’t lose. I’m, I’m very good at losing fish, so I’ve got new hooks this year and new techniques and I’ve been just really not wanting to lose fish this year. Brian (1h 45m 3s): Okay. You brought it up. I, I gotta, I gotta ask, what are these hooks you’re switching to and, and what are your techniques? Because one question I have asked a lot of our guests, especially guides, is what do you do when a steelhead grabs your fly? The best answer to date probably came from, from Dax Mess, who I believe most of us know. And Dax is great answer was, you’ve worked really hard to get this bite, don’t interrupt this fish. So Jason, what, what techniques are you gonna try to hook more fish and not lose them? And what are these crazy new hooks you’re talking about? Jason (1h 45m 33s): The hooks were recommended to me by Greg, who I just mentioned. The, it’s the Gam Kasu big River bait hook. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with that one. It’s got kind of a more of a angle to the hook bend rather than like a circular hook bend. It’s got a little bit of that kinda angles down and then angles back in, is the best way to describe it. So I’m gonna be trying those out. Greg recommended them. I think, I mean, I think, you know, losing fish probably is a little bit of bad luck. But I think, you know, one thing I could probably do better is just in that initial 10 seconds or so of hooking a fish, just, you know, keeping cool, keeping my rod down and to the side, not moving, not backing up, not lifting the rod up, you know, just staying planted where I am and waiting for things to unfold. Brian (1h 46m 32s): Great advice. So lastly Jason, someone wants to get a magazine subscription or learn more about Writers on the fly or just connect with you of course. Is there a way they can get in touch? Jason (1h 46m 42s): Yeah, the Fly fish journal.com. Of course, the Fly Fish Journal on Instagram as well. My stuff Writers on the Fly is kind of a, a side project of mine and probably the easiest way would just be to look for writers on the fly on Instagram. I think it’s writers underscore writers on the fly with underscores in between each word. But just search writers on the fly. I’m, I’m not on there a ton, but you can get a good sense. And then the website is an old website URL that I’ve never changed, but it’s, you know, the, the website itself is somewhat up to date. It has a lot of information, even some films that have been made about writers on the fly. Jason (1h 47m 25s): And it’s syzygy fly fishing.com. It’s S-Y-Z-Y-G-Y fly fishing.com. So a lot of info there. One more time, Jason, for the listeners, that one just S-Y-Z-Y-G-Y fly fishing.com. Brian (1h 47m 44s): Right on. Okay, Travis, these questions, same questions for you? Travis (1h 47m 48s): Sure. If they wanna get ahold of me, silver core.ca, that’s a website or you can just google my name or the word Silver Core. It’ll come up, you can see the podcast. We on all major platforms. I can’t think of what you could ask me. I can’t think of a question better than what will brought up. I think I’m gonna be lazy and I’m gonna default and I’m gonna mirror what Will said there. Looking forward to coming up and fishing in the schema there with you in, in the not too distant future. Other people he should talk to on the Bear thing, interesting fellow, he is, one of my earlier guests was Colin Dowler, might be one that you want to get up there. He fought off a grizzly bear while in the grizzly Bear’s Jaws. Travis (1h 48m 28s): He was able to get his pocket knife out and stab it in the neck while it was just destroying him. Massive injuries. And then he crawled back, he says, you know, the worst part about it was the, how painful it was to crawl on the gravel back to his bike. He almost gave up there and then he got on his bicycle and uses one good lake to pedal back another seven kilometers and help affect his self rescue. So that might be an interesting one for your listeners. Amy Batam. So if go on social media, if you wanna laugh, I think it’s Amy Fly Fish is what her social media handle is. She’s like a female Russell Brandt. She is hilarious. New into the fishing world and really taken it by storm and I think would speak to a different demographic than what you’re typically speaking to. Travis (1h 49m 18s): So that might be an interesting thing for you as well. Upcoming trips, of course. Yes. Fishing zipper, mouth Creek here in, in bc but I was invited over the big island. I’ve never been to the big island. I’ve hunted and fished on most of the other islands over there in Hawaii. So I was invited to hunt over there. I always throw in a pair of flippers, mask and a snorkel. I learned I can use a little bit of silicon on the mask and actually make a seal with a mustache. So that was kind of nice to learn. And I just bring a stinger head and I find some bamboo, chop it down, make a little Hawaiian sling with some surgical tubing and they, and some paracord. Travis (1h 49m 59s): I really enjoy snorkeling and and fishing that way. Brian (1h 50m 2s): Right on. Well, hey guys, this has been a fun discussion slightly outside of the norm of, of how in the Bucket episodes typically go where we talk about click and pull reels versus drag reels. But I’ve truly enjoyed this and once again, I encourage anybody listening to, to follow up three really fascinating guests today, and guys really generous with your time. And yes, I would love to invite each of you up to the lodge. Woo-hoo. A silver Core hosted Week. Writers on the Fly and Artist in residence, you know, will Rice. Will (1h 50m 31s): There we go. Brian (1h 50m 33s): And, and hey Will, we’re in. Thank you for sending me those photos. Will, when I took you out fishing, I brought my dog Rayen and our, our new pub’s quite similar, so it was a nice trip down memory lane to receive those from you. Yeah, Will (1h 50m 42s): That’s nice. Well I appreciate the, the casting lesson. Brian (1h 50m 45s): Yeah, right on guys. Thank you very much. Thanks Travis (1h 50m 48s): Brian. Thank you. Brian (1h 50m 51s): Well, that was a bit of a different episode, wasn’t it? I wanna thank Will Jason and Travis for sharing their stories and expertise with us today. Thank you to everyone tuning into the show. I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. I would encourage the folks listening to check out the podcast shows that Jason, Travis, and Willie host, I want to also take a moment and throw out additional thanks to those listeners that have reached out on email with comments and show ideas. I appreciate your feedback and ideas. Please keep ’em coming. You can reach me directly on email at info@skeenaspay.com. You can find in Theb Bucket Podcast online at www in theb bucket podcast.com. Brian (1h 51m 32s): If you’re on Instagram, you can follow us at in Theb Bucket podcast. Look for the next episode of In Theb Bucket Coming Your Way in the first week of June. Until then, I’m Brian Ska and you’ve been listening to In Theb Bucket Podcast, brought to you by the Wetly Swing.