902 | Winter Steelhead Fishing Tips: Dax Messett on Swinging Flies, Tides, and Reading Water

00:00:00 Dave: You don’t need to fish a river for forty years to understand it, but you do need to stay long enough to notice patterns others miss. We’re talking steelhead today through the lens of repetition and river miles. We’re going to talk about the discipline of swinging water thoroughly. The patience required when conditions aren’t perfect and the mindset that keeps someone returning season after season. This conversation moves through depth control, fly angle, confidence, and the kind of incremental adjustments that only come from time spent on the water. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love today. Dax Messitt is here, and he’s going to share his biggest tips on the right gear, the right techniques for fishing for steelhead. We’re going to be focusing on steelhead and his program around the year. We’re going to find out how to fish winter steelhead on coastal rivers and how this applies and how you need to think about tidal influences. We’re going to find out how to land a fish correctly without a net. It’s a good little segment. Plus we’re going to talk leaders and the best leader out there right now. The best tip it uh, what lines you need for success. We’re going to get in all summer steelhead, winter steelhead. We’re going to be bouncing around, uh, all around the Pacific Rim here today. So this is going to be a fun one. Uh, you can find Dax messitte at fly dot com. Here he is. Dax Messitte. How you doing, Dax? 00:01:28 Dax: Great, Dave. Thanks for having me. Huge fan. Your podcast helped me get through a lot of plane rides and long road trips. So yeah, fantastic stuff. Yeah. 00:01:38 Dave: Love it, love it. That’s cool to hear. It’s always awesome because, you know, I feel like steelhead is where we got started. You know, back when we first started season one, we’ve gone into everything now, but I always love it because I can never get enough right. It feels like there’s always a topic or a change or a evolution of rods. Right. And I think that’s what we’re going to talk about today. We’re going to talk about Nam. You know the brand you’re working with. We’ve had at least one episode where we talked about that, but we’ve heard about them. You know, I know Brian in the bucket. He’s talked about some of the good stuff you guys have going. So we’re going to talk about that. But you’re also a guide many years and covering winter and summer steelhead. So we’re going to we’re going to dig into all this today. I always love to get the story at the start. And before you got into Nam and guiding for over twenty years, you know, what was your first memory out there? 00:02:23 Dax: Fly fishing was a mistake for me to even find. I was addicted to snowboarding first in college, which is weird because I went to Akron U. But we had a little ski resort and I just got addicted to snowboarding. So I started, you know, for spring break, I was going to like mammoth and then in Colorado. And then when I first saw Lake Tahoe, I’m like, I’m moving here as soon as I graduate. Um, and then I did, and I moved to Tahoe in ninety seven and, you know, did a bunch of jobs, but I was longboarding down the Truckee River and riding, you know, bikes along the river and I’d see guys fly fishing. I’m like, man, I was really attracted to. I guess you would say the artistic nature of the casting and so forth. And my dogs, I had young dogs at the time, and I swim with them and fly fisherman and be like, get that now I get it right. And they were kind of trash in their water. 00:03:14 Dave: Yeah. 00:03:15 Dax: But, uh, anyway, and then I taught them to just sit and stay nice. So anyway, uh, one of my good buddies that was a pro snowboarder that moved there before me and skipped college, he’s like, I know how to fly fish. I know how to do that. And so, uh, I went along with him and, um, was a disaster, of course, like all of us at first. But Dave, you know, there was just something about it. I had to figure it out. And so I started, I just got completely addicted to it and was started mountain biking last and wakeboarding last and just, you know, started going all in and was really fortunate. Gosh, within really within months, you know, I got involved with the local fly fishing club, which I highly recommend to everybody out there if you’re trying to figure out fly fishing. 00:04:02 Dave: Where was that at? 00:04:03 Dax: Tahoe. Truckee. Fly fishers. Um, it was the FFA chapter and those are still around in most places. And I think they have, you know, they have guest speakers. So I remember some of these guest speakers that would come in. Um, and I and show, you know, slide presentations of these exotic places and I’m like, wow, I want to go there. And, and then so after that first summer, you know, I befriended because there were a lot of guides, you know, they’re in the business in the winter. And, uh, that’s kind of what I was into. So I started meeting guides and becoming friends with them. And, um, and then I started guiding by, uh, two thousand, um, and then two thousand and one, I think was the first year that I quit everything and just started guiding in the summers. And then by, uh, two thousand and four, I started doing the winters in New Zealand. Um, so I could maintain that endless summer of fly fishing, if you will. Um, and so, yeah, so I went from just kind of seeing fly fishing as something artistic and cool from a casting standpoint. It went from that to a vehicle of, uh, of travel. I was addicted to travel. I had serious wanderlust and it seemed like fly fishing occurred in these places that I wanted to travel to and immerse myself in those cultures anyway, you know, whether it be the tropics, I got way into saltwater fly fishing and of course, the New Zealand thing. And then I went and guided in Montana for a summer in Alaska, in Washington and Oregon and California. So, um, I’ve guided in a lot of different places and hosted trips and still host trips in a lot of really cool places, you know, everywhere from, you know, Christmas Island to Mexico to Honduras to, you know, Belize and BC. Um, it’s just has been an amazing life that I’m really grateful for. Um, but a lot of people helped me with all that for sure. 00:06:00 Dave: Right. And you’re still moving around, right? You throughout your prime. Maybe give us a little background before we get into some. We’re going to talk today. I think we’re going to bounce around, but definitely we’re going to cover steelhead fishing. You know, like we said. But today when you look at your year, what does that look like for you? Is that pretty much every year kind of you’re hitting the same spots, guiding throughout the sounds like the western part of the country. 00:06:20 Dax: Yeah. And it’s, it’s evolved as I’ve got older and married my wife eleven years ago, Leslie Ajari, who’s also a guide with me in a lot of these places. Um, you know, we spend the, uh, the main winter months, February and March, um, in southern Oregon, um, and Gold Beach on the coast where we do group trips for winter steelhead, me, Leslie, and my good friend John Hazlitt. A lot of people out there know. So we do four night, three day trips and you fish with me one day, John one day and Leslie one day, hopefully on a different river. And we’ve got great accommodation and a private chef that does all the cooking. And then, uh, April, I’m usually spending times, you know, at Clay’s and events and on the road, um, doing a lot of prep work for Nom products. And I usually in April, early May try to sneak a saltwater trip of some sort in there. Um, whether it’s Belize or the keys or something like that. And often it’s a hosted trip. And then once I start mid-May through June, I spend that in fall River, California, um, which is North America’s largest spring Creek. And it’s a really, really unique fishery. Um, it’s all flat water, classic spring Creek. I focus on dry flies and sinking lines there. And I do the same thing. I have a large operation there actually, I operate out of where we do groups of six and same thing four nights, three days. Um, we also have a hex hatch there. That’s pretty rad that we fish right at dark. Um, biggest mayfly in the world. If people haven’t experienced that, that’s pretty special. And that’s kind of mid June through. Boy it goes into August now and then in August, I always host a trip to my buddy Jeff and Katherine Hickman’s Lodge Kimsquit Bay, one of my favorite places in the world. Been doing that for a long time. Um, and Leslie and I kind of co-host that and sort of in part of that July and August, I usually spend a week on the North Umpqua where I do some guiding as well. And then late August, I transfer down to the Klamath River, the Lower Klamath. Um, again, we do a lodge sort of thing, um, four nights, three days and that’s all jet boat access. There’s no drive around walk waiting stuff down there. And that’s really exciting. We had a huge dam removal project happened there over the last few years. And we’re really excited about, you know, the future of that and being part of watching that whole thing evolve, you know, and that takes me into September. Um, and I always go to our good buddy Brian Lodge, uh, asking for a couple weeks in September. I love seeing the country. My time there is a little less. I used to go to the Skeena. I used to drive up there and spend like five weeks up there fishing all those tributaries. That was kind of my dirtbag steelhead. I did that for a lot of years, just lived in the back of my truck and would meet buddies. And just wherever the the conditions were good. That’s where I’d drive to. And then in October, um, after skiing at time, I go back to the Klamath for a couple weeks, usually to work with, uh, Spey cam, something I developed with Confluence Outfitters, um, where we’re camping right on this, uh, this bluff overlooking this unbelievable swing run, um, super special. And then then November, December. I try to spend a lot of time at home, which is Medford, and we luckily have the rogue River, uh, the upper rogues in the backyard. So I’ll guide that, you know, a bit, but I’m usually doing a lot of admin and catching up on a lot of, um, and in between all this, you know, I’m doing the rep gig, um, with all these travels I’m trying to fit in. We have, uh, twenty five retailers in the Pacific Northwest and I try to pop my head in every one of those, uh, brick and mortar stores over the course of the year when I can. So I know that that’s just me saying all that. How do. Yeah. 00:10:19 Dave: That’s pretty that’s a busy schedule. Yeah, well, it’s cool because I mean, you’re definitely, you know, it’s focused. You know, it sounds like steelhead, right? I mean, swung fly, you know, for the most part, although I know you’ve done some other stuff, but, but yeah, you’re, you’re on the road. Does it seem like you must. Yeah. You love the travel. Does it is it easier to do the, that sort of travel or, you know, it sounds like you’ve also done lots of the airfare stuff, air flights. Does it seem easy to you or do you ever get tired of doing it? 00:10:45 Dax: The air flights just have gotten harder and harder. You know, it used to be because when I was growing up, I didn’t do any travel with my family. It’s just not really what we did, at least not, you know, in planes and so forth. So I didn’t fly in a plane until I was probably like twenty one or so. And it was exciting then. And even, you know, when I, you know, flying out to California from Pennsylvania, I was like, wow, this is, you know, exciting. And then when I started flying to like New Zealand and the Bahamas and, you know, and Mexico, it was, you know, this is all early to mid two thousand and getting into the twenty tens. And then it just started getting heck, domestic travel’s kind of a pain now even, you know, you might just. So the air travels. Um, in that sense it’s getting a little more frustrating. Um, and man, I did Bolivia, you know, five times. Love that place. Um, and love New Zealand and love Christmas Island. But you know, the being on planes for ten hours now and then hoping you, it’s like I, I book everywhere and here’s some advice. 00:11:54 Dave: Yeah. Let’s hear your best advice. 00:11:56 Dax: If you’re doing a massive destination trip, like get there a day early because if you’re there a day early, man, then cool, you got time to settle in. If it’s a place that has like kind of cool, you know, culture or something, you can immerse yourself in that for an extra day. But what happens a lot is your flights get delayed or backed up in the States. You might be in Portland an extra day or Dallas or Miami, you know, or Lauderdale or, you know, so, and I, I just, uh, I used to, uh, book trips and every guide in their twenties and thirties knows this. You get done with one gig and you’re like, you get home from maybe one or two days and then boom, you’re doing the other gig. I don’t do that anymore. I give myself three or four days and, uh, and a lot of that, it’s like the, I think the rep thing and the opportunity I had with Nom really helped balance that kind of maniacal, I need to guide two hundred and forty days a year to survive type thing. Um, now I’m down into a more comfortable amount of guide days. I, I don’t know exactly how many those are, but. And also I was one of those maniacs that, oh, what do you do on your. Yeah, I did go fishing on my days off. I was, I just I’m addicted to it. Right. Um, the process and it’s not the least part of it, especially with wild steelhead. It’s, and I know it’s good that people are starting to say, boy, I just really enjoy the casting and the process. Um, that’s a good thing because if you just enjoy the catching, you should go fish for truck trout somewhere. 00:13:35 Dave: Yeah. Steelhead. Steelhead is not your species. 00:13:37 Dax: Or something just go on a trip where you’re gonna crush fish, you know? Um, so I and even the trout guiding, you know, it’s like, yeah, I like getting them as much as anybody, but I really like the technical aspect of it, which was New Zealand. It wasn’t like we’d go out and catch all these fish, but you’re going to remember that day. It’s like you might walk four or five kilometers and you might only encounter a half dozen fish. And each one, you’re like, okay, the sun’s here, my shadow’s there. We need to stand here. The fish is there, the casts should land here. And it’s I just like all that technical aspects of, of site fishing, right? That’s why I love flats fishing so much where steelheading and swinging flies. It’s like you’re just throwing it out there in a place where they, you hope they will be either sitting if you’re inland or if you’re fishing this coastal stuff like the winter. Often we’re fishing the moving fish, at least where I am, you know, I love fishing the rogue because I’m targeting a lot of the spots where I’m hoping fish are moving through or slowing down at a certain part of the day, which means I don’t have to throw big giant heavy sink tips and multi density lines and bullet weights and all that stuff there’s on the smaller rivers. Yeah, I’ll have to get more technical, but man, I like throwing, you know, a light, relatively light tip and not having to dredge. And it’s wonderful. 00:15:01 Dave: Right? So that’s the lower rogue. That’s what the lower rogue. So and this is the, what’s the section that you’re guiding on down the lower rogue? 00:15:09 Dax: Well, I actually have a permit to fish up into the wild and scenic up in actually all the way up, um, above the Illinois, um, and even the lower part of the Illinois. And there aren’t too many of those. So that’s kind of what’s cool about my group trips is you’ll fish with me one day if everything’s right on the rogue with the jet boat and there’s no driving to any of these spots, right? You have to take a jet boat just to the fish that these spots and and there’s no drift boat access. So you’re not seeing like an armada of drift boats. Water loading beads and gear and oh, you know, it’s. 00:15:44 Dave: Like, oh, wow. So there’s no drift boats because everybody, nobody’s floating it really this time of year, like the wild and scenic as much right as. 00:15:51 Dax: They take out, even if they were floating the wild and scenic, which no one’s doing in the winter, they take out at, at like foster Bar. Right. And so there are some people that do like some little floats around foster bar, but I’m, I’m well, like I’m in between where anybody would float. So the only people around are, um, you know, there’s certainly some rock star gear dudes, um, fishing it and some guys, um, kind of running fish from the boat rigs and we all understand each other. So there’s no conflict. So that’s really, it’s really a nice, pleasant experience. Um, and, and I’m fishing, you’re, you’re waiting between your ankles and knees and. And the fish were hooking are only in three four feet of water usually or less. Um, you blow up a big chrome fish in the ocean a few hours ago and a couple feet of water. I’m just addicted to that. Um, I just, I love that. 00:16:49 Dave: Check out Montana Fly Fishing Lodge, a twenty twenty four Orvis endorsed Lodge of the year finalist, where luxury Meets adventure on one point five miles of private, wild and scenic East Rosebud River frontage. Experienced world class fly fishing on numerous Yellowstone Basin streams. Gourmet cuisine made from locally sourced ingredients and rustic luxury accommodations surrounded by breathtaking wilderness. You can book your all inclusive Montana fly fishing adventure today and discover why they are the premier destination for unforgettable fishing experiences. Head over to Montana Fly fishing dot com right now. When it comes to high quality flies that truly elevate your fly fishing game, drift hook com is the trusted source you need. I’ve been using drift hooks expertly selected flies for a while now and they never disappoint. Plus, they stand behind their products with a money back guarantee. Are you ready to upgrade your fly box? Head over to Drift Hook today and use the code swing at checkout to get fifteen percent off your first order. That’s Drift Hook d r I f t h o o k dot com. Don’t miss out. Are the fish that are down there. Are they different than you know that lower the closer you get to the ocean. I mean they’re going to be fresher obviously. But as you get up, say the wild and scenic section, does that change a lot on how you fish? 00:18:05 Dax: Nope. 00:18:06 Dave: Nope. Same. 00:18:06 Dax: Yep. Same. And my permit goes to what’s called Watson Creek, which is basically just above Foster Bar. I do know a guy and he does some trips for us. Uh, Travis Bowman his permit can go even above their the flows need and you need to be. He’s one of the best jetboat operator pilots I’ve ever seen because you’re going through like class three and four whitewater there in a jetboat once you get above Watson Creek and he grew up on the river as family, he was probably driving a jetboat when I shouldn’t even say because I’m on the Marine board, so I shouldn’t give away that information. But. 00:18:42 Dave: Right, right. No, we’ve heard the stories we had. We did an episode with the Woolridge, with Grant Woolridge, and we heard, yeah, we heard the story. The stories of his great grandfather. 00:18:51 Dax: Made it possible. Yeah. 00:18:53 Dave: For you. Right. Made it possible for people like you guys. All of us. 00:18:56 Dax: Yeah, yeah. 00:18:57 Dave: So that is. 00:18:58 Dax: Cool. It’s cool. So yeah. And that that’s like the way I’m not running boats up through there. My permit doesn’t make it there. So it’s actually there’s like that wild and scenic that goes to Watson Creek. And then there’s like a special use permit area from Watson Creek to what’s called Lobster Creek. And so that’s where my permit is. And there’s only a handful of them, just me and a couple, me and Travis and, uh, Gino Brunero, another great guy. Like we’re the only fly guys there. 00:19:25 Dave: Um, you’re the only ones and you’re just doing wonderful. It sounds like it’s, um. I mean, how would you describe it? So I mean, this is for, you know, winter steelhead, but what the technique sounds like it’s close to summer steelhead. What describe the gear you use like, and we’re going to talk about noms too. So maybe tell us what your setup looks like as far as length of rod line and stuff like that. 00:19:45 Dax: Yeah. So for winter fish seven and eight weights, um, anything from twelve to fourteen feet, if you like to use some of those longer rods, like we got a seventy one, forty, fourteen foot seven weight that, uh, Barrett Ames designed primarily for the Deschutes. But heck, I’d use that on the snake. You know, the clear water. Um, it’s a five piece, so it breaks down relatively small for a fourteen foot rod and it’s really light. So that’s in my quiver that’s going with me. Um, and thirteen foot eight weight, the rent. I love that rod and, um, our seven weight epic waters. Um, which twelve seven, you know, and, uh, in terms of reels, me personally, I love clicking paulw reels. Um, I just like that sound. I like the added aspect of technicality to it, you know? So I love chamber reels. I love VR reels, you know? And, uh, you know, people that are making reels, I dig all that. I love older hardies. You know, are they harder to deal with fish? Sure. Good. Yeah. If they. 00:20:49 Dave: Take more skill. 00:20:49 Dax: I love it, you know? 00:20:51 Dave: Right. Have you ever how many times have you had a big fish? Um, you know, tear you up and do you have your lots? I’m sure you have some clients that are using those too. 00:20:59 Speaker 3: Oh, man. 00:21:01 Dax: I mean, yeah, man, I’ve got a lot of days on the lower Skeena. So I’ve watched a lot of just total and the dean, you know, so I’ve. Yeah. Well even here even our opp bogus geo like I. Yeah. I’ve only seen like a real totally Milton it was enable click and poor they had that cool click series for a few years and um I really liked those. And, um, it was just one of those fish. And what was it? It just annihilated it. Um, Johnny just had a guy, um, on the chetco last week using um, a hardy and it same thing. Just one of these fish a few miles from the ocean ate it and just the inertia hit it in such a way that it just destroyed the spring on it, you know? So anyway, um, and that’s, that’s part of it. And I do have clients that are like, nope, I don’t like the sound of those clicking pawls or I just want a better shot. So I want to use those steel drag reel. So if you do that, there’s lots of great reels out there. Our reels are einerson. So I really obviously I’m going to gravitate towards Einarson’s. Um, one of the main thing I love about our einerson reels when you’re fishing for, um, anadromous species is that I like to use mono shooting line. Um, and ours is called hizumi if you like mono shooting line. There’s just really no comparison. And I’m fine to say that if you want to write me and say something’s better, I want to try it. Um, it’s part of what gravitated me to the company in the first place. Um, but what I like about our einerson reels is their full cage, meaning that that shooting line’s not going to slip through that gap that reels that aren’t full cage have. And if you want to lose a fish, that’s a good way of that happening is having that mono slip through there. And even just casting and dealing with a real the mono line wants to slip through those non full cage reels, which is agonizing. So that’s another benefit of our interests and reels. And the drag’s been proven. I’ve been using them for, you know, almost uh, we’ve had, we bought Anderson. I’m probably pushing two years now, um, year and a half, two years maybe. So I used them all last winter. I’ve used them up on the dean and I don’t I don’t like selling anything that I wouldn’t use myself. That’s always been a big thing for me. Um, and I’ve been blessed and, um, I feel grateful for all the companies I’ve worked with for over twenty five years. If stuff wasn’t working out for me, I’d let them know. Um, and I’d use something different. So, um, I’m out there. You know, I want my clients to land the fish. I want to land them. 00:23:44 Dave: Right? You know, don’t want to lose the fish. Yeah. 00:23:46 Dax: I’m not going to use it because I get this for free or get paid a couple hundred bucks, you know? So, um, no, I want to use what I feel gives me my best opportunities at all times. 00:23:57 Dave: Nice. And you mentioned this. So the twelve and a half to fourteen foot. If you take it to that rogue fishing, is there any advantage of the fourteen foot. Sounds like you’re using lighter tips and stuff like that. But what would be the perfect rogue? That lower rogue rod length wise. 00:24:11 Dax: And probably thirteen foot. 00:24:12 Dave: Yeah, thirteen, I’d say. 00:24:14 Dax: Yeah. Perfect. Rod would be a thirteen foot. You know, one of the the things when you fish with my group trips is I bring like six or seven of them. You don’t even need to bring a rod when you fish with us. And, uh, and John Hazlitt guides with us too. So he has a quiver of sage rods to use. And so we’re, we’re like, cool, try all these. Um, the best way to decide what new Spey rod to get is to physically try one that’s balanced appropriately. And um, where you could do that is either with guides like us that have them, um, that are dedicated one hundred percent spey guides, dot guides and nothing against any guides program, but we’ll do both. We’ll, we’ll do a fifteen mile float and we’ll bobber fish and then we’ll get out in a good swing spot and swing the bat. It’s just hard to get any consistency that way. 00:25:05 Dave: Yeah. Right. 00:25:06 Dax: I mean, um, I did lots of bobber fishing and I wouldn’t want to be bothered pulling over to like, why are we going to mess around with that, you know? 00:25:13 Dave: Right. So focus. 00:25:15 Dax: Focus on one or the other. And that’s just my opinion. But, uh. And the other good place to demo rods is at the sparkles. We got Sandy. We just did Seattle sparkles with emerald water anglers. That was great. Um, great shop, great event. We’ve got Sandy River Spey clay that me and Marty Shepherd are putting on again, and did that for many, many years and used to present at that watch the presenters. You could demo these rods. Um, there’s uh, Spey palooza up on Skagit, I believe that’s the last weekend of April, I want to say. Or in May, uh, me and John Hazlitt put on the rogue River Spey Club, which is August twenty second. And, you know, you come to this and you could try twenty rods. 00:25:59 Dave: Yeah, you can try everything, you know. 00:26:01 Dax: Um, and so, you know, it’s not enough to, to read about a rod on Spey pages. And that’s a good frame of reference. That’s an excellent place to research stuff. Um, but there’s no substitute for going to one of these claves. Going to your brick and mortar fly shop. Maybe they have a demo. They’ll let you take out. Maybe they got a shop employee that will let you come kick around and fish with them for a couple hours and try a rod you’re interested in. You know that’s where you get rods. Is that a brick and mortar fly shop? I know you could get them for cheaper on classifieds, on Craigslist or wherever around these online stores. But you know, myself personally and nom as a company, um, we really point you towards a brick and mortar store to make your purchase so you could cultivate that relationship with that staff there. Fly shops are dwindling and we want to support them. 00:26:55 Dave: Yeah. Are they our fly shops going? We’re losing fly shops. 00:26:59 Dax: I would say. Yeah. I would say when I started, you know, I started in an interesting time. It was just the wave was starting to get just almost to the beach of the river runs through it, right? 00:27:11 Dave: Yeah. So you start so ninety three, whatever that was ninety four, right. So six years. Yeah. Two thousand. Right. You started guiding. 00:27:18 Dax: Yeah. And so, um, the first lodge I worked for was this legendary place that’s gone now. It was called Clearwater House on Hack Creek that started in the seventies by this Renaissance cat named Dick Gallen, who was brilliant. And, um, and it was on this, this, this section of River of rising River. And it was close to Hack Creek, the McCloud River, the Pitt River, fall River. And so like, yeah, you could cut. And that’s kind of where I got the like, wow, you could anywhere where I could go, where you could fish a different river or a different section of a river over the course of three days. That’s what’s appealing to me as an angler, right? You know, and that’s like, why here? You know what we do here? Like, so tomorrow I’m going to take two people on the road. Then the next day Hazlitt’s going to take them to the checkout, and the next day Leslie’s going to take them to another unnamed river. Right. So you’re you’re going to fish three different rivers. So that’s kind of what we were doing at that clear water place. And I really enjoy the kind of that premise. 00:28:17 Dave: Are the techniques going to vary between the three days like this week? Is it going to be quite a bit different, or would that one thirteen foot rod with one line be able to, you know, handle everything? 00:28:29 Dax: It’ll pretty much be able to handle everything. Rogan and Chico are pretty similar. Um, you know, we’re fishing the lower part of the Chico, so we’re basically putting in six miles above the ocean and fishing down into tidewater. So the fish that we encounter there are going to be memorable. And there are some heavier sections that echo that we will fish some game changer or, you know, heavier tips into the T14 or maybe some, you know, multi density heads. There’s a few spots on the Chetco and there are a few on the rogue that I will fish some chunkier. Um, I do like those. Me personally, I’d rather fish a multi density head than like ski twenty, right? I just think for me and the type of water I’m fishing, I’m not fishing off of like ledges into deep tanks or anything, but I am trying to dig into some heavier water where I want that swing to be as slow as possible. And boy, those multi density heads will really slow a swing down for you. And I’ll usually have somebody that’s the cleanup rig in case they’re in the heavier water. My first guy is usually always going down with like a pretty light tip, whether they’re light tip. 00:29:46 Dave: Yeah. Right. 00:29:47 Dax: You know, and maybe t eight, right? 00:29:50 Dave: Yeah. So that’s a good rule of thumb. When your winter steelhead fishing, if you have a few guys or even if you’re solo, start with a lighter tip. Is that a good rule of thumb? 00:29:58 Dax: Yeah. And fish the inside fish the inside to the beat to the bank. Yeah. You know, and that’s, you know, I really started learning this when I fished like the lower Skeena a lot more. And um, because again, I kind of got, I started steelheading, it was all like, you know, Trinity River and places like that. I wasn’t winter steelhead fishing. So and that’s, you know, a hundred miles inland or more than that. So those fish are hanging in structure. So that’s way different than fishing within five or ten miles of, of the tide on gravel bars. Those fish, there’s times I tell people I’ll see somebody, I’m like, back up. You don’t need to wade to your tits out here, right? You know, the fish are coming up in the inside water column. They’re using the bank as the frame of reference to navigate up the river, especially when it’s dirty. You know, if it’s super turbid. I mean, you might get them out in that heavy seam that you normally would, but I see them hooked more on the very inside. Um, so I’m using really light tips when it’s dirty in my rivers that, you know, I’m focusing on that like, gosh, one to four feet. You know, you watch these clunkers out here. They’re not throwing it to the middle of the river. They, they’re using gear rods. They could cast it one hundred and fifty feet. They cast it like right out in front of it. 00:31:24 Dave: Right. And they just let it trickle. 00:31:25 Dax: Right off the bank, you know, spinning out there with chicken guts on it, you know? Yeah. Um, we don’t have that advantage, but, uh. 00:31:33 Dave: Right. 00:31:33 Dax: I tell you, it works. It works really good, right? 00:31:37 Dave: Yeah. That’s pretty effective too. Is there any time when you’re fishing, you’re in, you’re catching more fish than the gear guys out there? No, no, never. Yeah. 00:31:46 Dax: I don’t want to say no. No, I’m not going to say never. 00:31:49 Dave: Yeah. The smelly bait. It is a different thing, right. Because the winter fish. But they are down there in shallow water, but they’re still kind of deep or talk about that where so you’re using T8. 00:31:58 Dax: We’ll go back to that. So I am catching more than that when it’s low and clear Because they’re not out there. They only want to fish when they’re getting them. So they’re just physically not there. And that’s a testament to, you know, participation as spangler’s. So if you enjoy the casting and angling aspect, like we’re going to go out there anyway when it’s low and clear, right? And guess what? We do get them when it’s low and clear. Not with an insane amount of consistency, but I mean, you know, I’ve done it several thousand times in the winter. So yeah, I’ve seen unbelievable fish caught in low and clear. You know. 00:32:38 Dave: So low and clear. So basically hasn’t rained for quite a while. Yeah, the rivers are super low. They’re super clear. And then you’re fishing a lot more out in those like buckets deeper water at times. 00:32:48 Dax: Yeah. I’m fishing. And it’s, it’s pretty interesting to see where they’ll lie sometimes in the clear water. Tail outs. Don’t ever skip a tail out, man. Anywhere where you’re fishing, whether you’re on the whether you’re on a rocky river like the North Umpqua or a or a tidal river that has some size to it. You know, if it’s low and clear and look for bigger rivers that are low and clear. You know, like the rogue is still fishable when it’s low and clear in the winter on the rogue is what it is now, which is, I think, three thousand five hundred cfs. That’s a pretty big river if you compare it to the Sol Duc when it’s low and clear, right? That’s going to be harder to find. So that’s filled with bedrock and so forth. So then you’re really targeting areas like that on. That’s just an example of a river that’s winter and smaller. 00:33:39 Dave: And smaller, right? So that’s the whole thing. Yeah. 00:33:42 Dax: And some we just say they’re dropped out, you know, unfishable when they’re that low and clear and you probably shouldn’t be messing with those fish anyway. When it gets to that point where the rogue three thousand five hundred cfs, heck, in the summer it gets down to two thousand and we still fish for them. So we’re not doing any any harm, particularly in the lower parts, where they’re on their way up to spawn and they’re still trickling through because they just can’t take it anymore and they’ll start coming. I start focusing on the tides a lot. I think that’s kind of. 00:34:13 Dave: A is that the key? Is that the key down in the fish, in the rogue or something? 00:34:16 Dax: The I’d say it is everywhere. You know, where you’re fishing around Tidewater. The best time to go fishing. People ask me a lot. Well, I’m like, whenever you you have time. 00:34:27 Dave: When you. 00:34:27 Dax: Can. If you have to watch your kids or do yard work on Saturday or have a bunch of honey do’s or meetings like, yeah, but so yeah, go whenever you can. But if you have the luxury of picking when to go for winter steelheading in particular, boy, you’re really going to pay attention to the flows on whichever fishery you pick. And then if you’re fishing with, if you really want that fish close to the ocean, then you’re going to start paying attention to tides. And when the this certain tide is and where you’ve noticed fish coming through, um, in a certain place, and whether that’s from you hooking them or you’re in a place where you see bank anglers and gear dudes, it’s like, wow, it seems like after this blank tide, these guys seem to be the bells start ringing, right? 00:35:16 Dave: Um, yeah, yeah. What is that tide? Is that kind of on average, like more like high tide and then swing out. 00:35:22 Dax: Both. 00:35:23 Dave: Swings. 00:35:23 Dax: Come on. Both swings. Right. And so in terms of where you physically are and how fast they go, um, and there’s no people want to be like, well, how far do they travel in a day or two? And it’s like, man, I’m not a biologist. Also, I know, you know, that depends. And people I hated when my mom would say that, you know, mom can, but that depends. I’m like, right. 00:35:49 Dave: Well, yeah, that’s a tough one. 00:35:51 Dax: Right? So, um, yeah, and I find I say that a lot. 00:35:54 Dave: Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s interesting in the rogue because you have those fish. Maybe. I’m not sure if the winter steelhead do. Oh, I guess they probably all do. But you’ve got it. Seems like you got that section in the middle of the river, the wild and scenic, which is kind of a lot of those half pounders. Yeah. And some of the bigger adults and they’re kind of busting up through that section, right. And then you get into Hazlet, or is it Hazlet, the fishes, the upper rogue, or who’s up there fishing that. Yeah. And and you get, you get to his water up there and it’s like. And then you get some of these bigger fish again. Is that kind of the case the way that works down there? 00:36:22 Dax: Well, the interesting thing also about the rogue that’s pretty unique is you can catch a steelhead twelve months a year on the road. Obviously, there’s huge pushes of fish, you know, in the early summer into the fall. And then there’s kind of a lull in, you know, when do the first quote unquote winter fish start come in? Probably December, you know, and it depends where you’re at. So if you’re up, you know, above Grants Pass, let’s say like below, grants pass, a lot of the summer fish, they’ll kind of hang out in that. Grants pass down into the top part of the wild and scenic. The guides down there tend to do pretty good, and if there’s not a lot of fall rains getting into September and October, that upper road will be slow and kind of stale because those fish didn’t make it yet from that part of the river. So that’s that could fluctuate year to year, right? And then so, gosh, it’s almost as though and then it’s like the early winter fish might catch up to them. Right. And so then we had this, we had one big storm about a week or about eight or nine days ago, and a big push came in all of our rivers, right. And then it didn’t rain at all. Now the lower rivers have dropped out the smaller rivers. And now we’re waiting for this storm. It looks like it’s here. I’m looking at the bridge right now and. 00:37:45 Dave: It’s going to hit tomorrow. It’s coming in. 00:37:47 Dax: Right? Right. When our will our folks come today. Um, so our first clients are tomorrow, so they might be having one of those kind of Caddyshack moments where the priest is on the golf course and this torrential like hurricane. 00:37:59 Dave: Oh, right. 00:38:00 Dax: And he’s this is the greatest, you know, we might we might be out there with. 00:38:05 Dave: That’s true because it could be conditions. Even if conditions are crazy, fishing could be still good out there. That’s right. 00:38:09 Dax: That’s right. You know, they started smelling this new water coming out there. They might start charging up. So hopefully that sort of answers your question because we’ll be fishing. I would say my last guide day here is March thirty first. But certainly new winter fish could still be coming after that. 00:38:27 Dave: Yeah, they’re coming. They’re coming through there. And guys are catching in that wild and scenic section. Let’s just say, you know, the blossom bar anywhere in there that you guys could catch. Big winter fish in there for sure. Yeah. Fished it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Okay. 00:38:40 Dax: And the other cool thing is Springer’s right. So we don’t get a great Springer run anymore here. Um, and that’s a whole nother conversation probably. But, um, last year, I mean, their bycatch for us, which is the greatest bycatch of all time, because they’re one of the rarest fish to hook on a fly is a spring Chinook, right? 00:39:01 Dave: No kidding. 00:39:01 Dax: It’s really hard to accomplish. And very rare. But, um, I got one last year. My client got one last year, March third, which is crazy early, like unheard of early. 00:39:14 Dave: So it’s like. 00:39:15 Dax: What was that fish doing? You know what I mean? So and the answer is, well, the rogues are really cool fish. 00:39:23 Dave: Yeah. The rogues are very diverse. 00:39:24 Dax: Right? 00:39:24 Dave: And um. Yeah. 00:39:25 Dax: And bigger rivers when taken care of, you know, and I’m not saying ours is taken care of. Great. We’ve got hatcheries that I don’t necessarily, you know, agree with what’s happening with those or whatnot. 00:39:37 Dave: Some places are just different. You feel it the second you step into the water. Mountain Waters Resort sits on the legendary Portland Creek, a place where Atlantic salmon runs strong and where fly fishing history was written. Lee Wulff himself fished these waters And now you get to experience the same world class fishing in a setting that feels untouched by time. Whether you’re swinging flies for fresh chrome or kicking back in a cozy riverside cabin, this is the kind of trip you’ll be talking about for years and years to come. And guess what? I’ll be there this year as well. But here’s the deal Prime time season fills up fast, so don’t wait. Check in now and join me on this historic river. This year you can head over to Wet fly mountain waters. Right now that’s Mountain Waters Resort. You can go to Wet Fly swing mountain waters right now and save your spot for this epic adventure. Well, the cool thing about the road is you have, you know, in the coastal rivers in Oregon, there’s only two that cut through the Coast Range. Yeah, right. The rogue and the Umpqua. Those are the two. Everything else kind of has its headwaters kind of in the range, right? So there are these big giant rivers. And that’s partly why you see more of these different life histories of summer steelhead. Winter. Right. And the other ones were like, the Chetco probably doesn’t have a summer steelhead run, right? 00:40:54 Dax: No. Absolutely not. No. And the cool thing about that, like so the Umpqua is having a great winter run so far. Um, that last big bump of rain, they got good amount of. The only good part of Winchester Dam is that they. It’s a good data collection center because they could literally count the fish going over that disaster of a dam. Right. Um, so and data is valuable in terms of, you know, determining how many fish are going back somewhere, right? Which helps in terms of management, but that’s nice to hear that. Um, you know, and guess what? The Archie Creek fire burned down the hatchery back in twenty twenty. So there’s no more hatchery on the Umpqua and here we are, you know, five, six years later. You know, it’s looking like it’s probably going to be the best winter run they’ve had in a long time. And so if you want to, you know, extrapolate any, you know, science from that. It’s just I’m just making observations. You have enough like fish biologist on your podcast that could probably speak. 00:41:56 Dave: Yeah, definitely. 00:41:57 Dax: With much more. 00:41:58 Dave: Um, we’re in an interesting time too, because it’s like, it’s hard, you know, with the runs are up and down and, you know, they talked about like the OPP closures and stuff, you know, it’s just really kind of crazy time. But the bottom line is, and we’ve heard it from different guides, you know, that are, you know, I think it’s not all negative. You know, there’s lots of positives to steelhead are not extinct. They’re still here. They’re obviously hitting a low point. John McMillan’s been on he’s talked a lot about that. The fact that we were at a low point or whatever. But you know we can still kind of climb out of it. It seems like the rogue is one of those ones. I think John said that on the podcast is he felt like, you know, it’s just a it’s an outlier versus everything else. Like the runs were still good. Like the rogue didn’t even really see a huge downturn. It sounded like at least maybe those upper river fish. Do you feel like that was the case that the rogue is a little bit different than, say, the some of these other basins you fish? 00:42:45 Dax: Yeah, it’s just and it’s important, I think, to talk about some of this simplicity, you know? But at the same time, and I also think it’s important to bring up, you know, in terms of closures for conservation measures, I think there’s a I’m not saying a better way. I understand when you. Okay, we need to close this. The North Umpqua, there’s only fifty three fish. Like we shouldn’t even be. There’s a mortality rate even for catch and release angling. I think maybe some things should be put in place before that in terms of. So there’s ways that people angle that are way more successful than swinging flies, right? And so maybe instead of saying we’re going to close the entire Olympic Peninsula, maybe we focus on regulation changes, but then whichever user group and the way they fish is part of what gets eliminated, then they’re going to be really upset. And I understand that, I understand that, but is that better? If changing the way you fish a little bit is able to keep angler ability, the ability to actually go fishing open? I take that over full closure personally because I believe, you know, closing rivers removes advocates and we could talk for hours about all that stuff. 00:44:02 Dave: Yeah, yeah. And well, and Brian, I think has talked, you know, on the in the bucket. I think he’s definitely covered that. And I think it’s a it’s a valid point right. That all the all the system there. Well this is cool. I think that the great thing about this is. Yeah, I mean, you’re kind of in the middle of everything here with, you know, and then the products back to Nam. Well, let’s take it to this. And then I want to switch over because I want to talk just a little bit about the Klamath because it’s a different system and there’s a lot of stuff going there. But what is the rod? So if we’re going to pick up one norm rod, one setup for the rogue, it’s a thirteen foot. Is there one style or one model or what would you recommend for that? 00:44:34 Dax: I’d probably pick up the thirteen foot eight weight. 00:44:37 Dave: Ren yeah. The double hand. Okay. Yeah. The. Ren okay. And that one. And then and then as far as a line, what would you pair? What would be your line? I’m not sure what you used there as far as the, you know, the line and the heads and that stuff? 00:44:51 Dax: Yeah, I really there’s a lot of great lines that work on it. But, um, you know, if you’re fishing, I really like I’ll bring up several lines. I really like, um, bridge line torrent on there. A five twenty five and that’s great for tips. T8 t11 ten feet of T8 ten feet. Eleven bridge line five twenty five is awesome on that. Eighty one thirty uh, Rio Scandi body. Five ten um, with replacement tips on there if you want to fish twelve and a half foot, fifteen foot tips, that’s a great, great line on there. Those are two examples. 00:45:27 Dave: Those are two good ones. 00:45:28 Dax: I’ll go with. Um, but if somebody’s like, well, I’ve got this other brand five, twenty five or five hundred, that’ll work too. But that’s a great rod. 00:45:37 Dave: That’s a great rod. Good and bridge line’s good or the bridge line because we had, um. Tim. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Tim. Of course. Tim. He was on an episode. We’ll put a link to it. He was on with our Great Lakes Dude podcast. Jeff Lisk interviewed him. 00:45:50 Dax: Another great guy. Those are both good guys, man. 00:45:53 Dave: Exactly. I know those are two. I’m always excited because I’m, you know, we have these episodes where Brian’s a good example, you know, covering somebody who’s way, way above my level. You know, most people, it’s good to hear them interviewing some of these superstars. Yeah. But, um, so that gives us that. So let’s circle back or switch around to the Klamath because I don’t want to miss that. There’s been equally maybe more news headlines for the Klamath because of the dam removals. But talk about your program there. And I can’t remember exactly when you’re heading over there, but what does that look like? What’s the time of year you’re hitting the Klamath? 00:46:23 Dax: Yeah. So I’ll do over there late August like that last week or two of August, um, around our rogue, uh, spay clave event. And before I go to Niska’s, um, into like September twelfth is my last day there this year. And so moving forward, yeah, I’ll probably do that three week period last week or two of August and first week or two of September. Um, you could fish it before that and you could fish it after that. Um, because I go back um, in October to work with, uh, confluence Outfitters Sp-a camps that I helped start and develop. Um, so I still love doing that with those guys. Um, and their camps right on the water. Um, where I do it. We have a, we have a lodge I use at Tidewater and we do groups of six and all my groups are catered and you fish, um, with a different person each day. And down there, it’s all jet boats. So it’s really cool. We usually we just you walk, have your coffee, look at the sea lions crash and fish and we run out to the boats and motor up to the first riffle and fish for them. Sometimes we get them, sometimes we don’t. But it’s pretty miraculous To be fishing in their estuary is probably six seven miles long, which is a really long one. Like, you know, I’m sitting here looking at the rogue estuary, which is probably, I’d say three, three miles or so. You know, the main stem of the Umpqua is like thirteen miles. You know, the Siletz is a really long one. So I’m getting really more interested in this estuarine, you know, environment and driving a boat from the estuary up into these swings of the tide that disappear as the tide comes in or appear as the tide go out. So I really like fishing tide water. You know, my favorite spot on the dean that has like a lot of miles of water. I really like on the upper and lower. I’m like, drop me off on that gravel bar going into the ocean. And if I catch one sweet, if not, whatever. Um, I’ve had whole trips where I didn’t touch a fish and I had ones that I got one every day or smoked by one every day. Those fish are really hard to land, especially with my click and Paul’s. 00:48:37 Dave: But right. So the lower the better you like to get, the lower the better. 00:48:41 Dax: I just love that stuff. And so but we’ll run, you know, my range is about I’ll go twenty miles up into there. Um, some guys that work for me will go farther than that. Um, or work with me, I should say. We’ll go farther than that up there. So it’s the lower clam is phenomenal. Once you get a couple miles upriver, there’s just not really any houses, there’s no roads. The only way to cruise around is by jet boat. So again, you’re not going to see a lot of pressure. The most pressure you will see there is, uh, July, August when the Sam or July in the early August when the salmon gear guides are working through those lower sections. So you will it’s culture. So if you’re standing in a riffle swing and a run, they might throw their stuff right by you and float and then they side drift through. Don’t yell at them. They’ve been going there longer than you if you don’t know about that. Right. Um, and that’s the same kind of everywhere, you know, there’s etiquette. That’s when guys have. And then there’s etiquette that most of the other people have. So, you know, if somebody’s doing something blatantly rude, then okay, I guess it’s okay to about it. But generally they’ve been fishing that area longer than you. So I’d really hold my tongue with some of that kind of stuff. 00:49:52 Dave: Yeah, yeah. That’s right. 00:49:53 Dax: You know, and that’s why, you know, I really love the system as a whole. You just don’t see that. You don’t have that. Basically everybody’s swinging or they’re going in there, um, you know, with a float and a gear rod, you know, you just don’t see a lot. Nobody’s like throwing at your feet out there. 00:50:11 Dave: No, no. Yeah. You got lots of room. 00:50:13 Dax: There’s not an army of drift boats on the Bulkley water loading bobbers and beads and all that stuff, you know, so it’s right. It’s just they would look at you like you’re an alien if they saw that, you know? 00:50:24 Dave: So the Klamath is pretty much from the ocean up to say the Trinity. Is that the section that’s pretty remote that you’re in? 00:50:30 Dax: Oh, the Trinity is my. Yeah. My range doesn’t go anywhere near that. Yeah. Not no not mine. You could if you’re, if you camped like up there. But in terms of the amount of gas I would burn I’m staying with it. Yeah. I’m staying within fifteen, twenty miles of the Tidewater and the Trinity, you know. Great run. I guided that many years. If you know, if you’re a steelhead angler out there and you’re kind of from the Tahoe area that I would call it, and you are used to fishing from the boat, you want to check out a steelhead river, the Trinity killer for that, right? Those techniques work there. It’s accepted there. Um, it does, it is steeped in steelhead tradition of, of single hand swing angling. And then later the Spey rods. You don’t need an eight weight. They’re a six weight spey rods. Plenty for the Trinity. Yeah. Six or seven. I’d even use a five there. And that’s a. And so that’s the biggest tributary of the Klamath. What we’re kind of talking about. And then you have the salmon River, which is highly regarded. You know, for whitewater rafting and kayakers, tough access. And same thing about the Scott River. Um, so these are the tributaries kind of going up the Klamath and then the Shasta River. And then you get up above the Shasta River. You know, about ten miles up is where they took out the the lowest dam and above that is all water. I, I haven’t finished yet or seen. Um, so they took out four dams, um, from talking to my buddies, uh, you know, uh, the Shane Anderson and my Cal Trout buddies, you know, the salmon are already all the way up in the Williamson River, um, which is just mind blowing how fast, you know? Well, it’s the opposite. If you build it, they will come. It’s like, if you take it down, they. 00:52:17 Dave: Take it down. 00:52:18 Dax: So yeah, it within a year they’re saying these salmon going up there, which is amazing. And, um, and so I think, I don’t know, it’s speculation just like hearing stuff. it. So above those dams were these insane, you know, rainbow trout that were just steelhead giants. You know, genes in them. Yeah. So I think, well, I hope from what I hear in time they will go down and then steelhead should be going up into there too. And you know what Dave? I don’t care if that takes a hundred years. 00:52:48 Dave: Yeah. 00:52:48 Dax: It’s easier without dams. Yeah. 00:52:51 Dave: It makes it easier without the barriers. 00:52:53 Dax: Yes. There’s a lot of people are like, oh, you’re gonna ruin it. And I’m not really concerned, you know? 00:52:58 Dave: Um, no. 00:52:59 Dax: And efficient stuff for a year or two. I’m not really concerned. Um, find a different program. I, I get, I get upset when I hear, you know, guides that are making money on a resource complain when something that’s going to be good for the future of a river, um, is changed that that frustrates me because. 00:53:17 Dave: Shortsighted, right? 00:53:18 Dax: Yeah. And I’m and just find somewhere else. And if they say, oh, easy for you, I’m like, no, it, it is easy for me to say because that’s what I’m constantly doing, is adapting to changes, and that’s what guides me to do too, because a lot of guides used to like to do the float right below that dam. It was a four mile section and sure, yeah, guess what? 00:53:40 Dave: That’s great. 00:53:40 Dax: The fish were tagged up there. 00:53:42 Dave: Yeah, right. Of course. 00:53:44 Dax: Bouncing against the dam and that tree. 00:53:47 Dave: And the water temperatures were probably not not natural. And yeah, it is a tough. I remember my dad before, you know, he used to say before he kind of quit fishing, he was always like, oh man, I don’t have enough time in my life to wait the ten years or whatever it takes to see the effects of these things. But that’s what it is. You know, it is. Maybe it won’t be in your lifetime, but maybe it’ll be in your kids lifetime or your kid’s kids, you know, like that’s what we got to be looking out. So, so that’s really interesting because the Klamath, I mean, when you look at it, it’s just this huge river, massive but massive. But you guys are down the lower. So how does the lower Klamath compare to where you’re fishing down those lower fifteen miles to say the Skeena. Size wise? 00:54:26 Dax: Well, it’s cool because it’s in terms of water type, it’s like a miniature Lower Skeena, you know. 00:54:32 Dave: Oh it. 00:54:33 Dax: Is. Yeah. 00:54:34 Dave: Oh, wow. 00:54:34 Dax: So same way I’m fishing the rogue lite tip. Except it’s summertime, so I’m fishing a lot of floating line. I love Muddlers. Um, I really do. I love fishing muddlers and I, I yeah, purples in there. Um, and I also like fishing. Foamies. You know, I like seeing that. I don’t chug them down there, you know, and that’s a whole nother podcast, right? Oh, so I’m an old school North Umpqua guy or not old school, but just did for twenty five years or so and, and got it a little bit and just loved that, you know, I’m pretty much that’s all I fish up there. But, uh, on the, the lower Klamath, it just seems like the history aspect. I like muddlers and I like, you know, bosses and comets and kind of those old school flies. And, uh, aqua flies is a great company if you’re looking for commercial flies. Oh, yeah. Um, and your favorite shop. Oh, look at aqua flies. They’re just so well done. And Hartwick, Hartwick, Jason Hartwick, long time guide on the lower Klamath. And his patterns are spot on and fantastic. They work really well. Um, but yeah, like tips and floating lines. It’s great. Um, and you know, something I noticed in the first year that the dams went out, the river temperatures are cooler and there’s less algae. Um, and this is one hundred miles below where the lowest. Yeah. You’re way down, you know. So, um, and so that’s just what I noticed fishing way down there. So I mean, so for that change that happened in a year, I can’t wait as years go by when there’s more riparian, you know, and all that starts growing in, um, up by where the dams were and some of the sediment just keeps filtering out, you know, with let nature do its thing, man. Like the, you know, like the Elwha, you know, like. 00:56:19 Dave: Yeah, the Elwha good. A good example success story. 00:56:22 Dax: And so this is like, uh, ten to it’s not coastal like up there, right? So, you know, with these headwaters of the Klamath that start up in the desert and, you know, up beyond the Cascades, these spring creeks that feed. Right. The whole thing up there, I can’t imagine what, you know, it’s just really exciting to even if I wasn’t fishing it, Dave, you know, it’s just it’s just a cool thing. Yeah. 00:56:45 Dave: I know you get to see that. You get to see the changes firsthand. Is it how long? I’m not sure if you know the Klamath River. Do you know how I mean, it’s I’m not even sure on the length. I always feel like. 00:56:54 Dax: From like the first tributaries that come together, that would start the Klamath, probably two hundred and twenty miles. Yeah. I’d say yeah. Yeah. A couple hundred miles couple. 00:57:04 Dave: Absolutely. 00:57:05 Dax: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I believe the dam’s taken out. And I’m sure John or one of these other guys would know exactly. But I think it opened up probably six hundred miles of possible tributaries spawning. So that’s because it’s just the scope of it is mind blowing. And this is like primo tributary spawning like Spring Creek, you know, it’s just going to be really cool. Um, where it is, it’s not going to be. It is. It’s really cool. 00:57:32 Dave: It already is. Yeah. And you’re seeing changes. So when you’re down there, maybe on the rod again for the Klamath, it’s pretty much the same thing you talked about on the road. 00:57:40 Dax: No, I go I go lighter because we we come into, you know, and that, you know, if you’re fishing there, July, August, even into early September, you’re going to be running into half pounders. So I love four and five weight rods. So, um, okay, you know, we’ve got a forty one twenty, we got a fifty one twenty. Um, we have a new Trout Spey series coming out. Um, we should have it by this summer and then we’ll, yeah, we’ll have everything. I think our lowest will be, I wouldn’t do the two weight there. That’s more like one hundred and eighty five grains soft caddis stuff. But for guys that like fishing, really light stuff. Yeah. You could use four and five weights, but definitely it’s nice to have a six and a seven. We do occasionally encounter both Jack Chinook down there that are dime bright and um and adult Chinook. Not a super often, but they will eat um, not the muddlers, but you know, they’ll eat like moss backs and some of those classic patterns, um, hernias and things like that. Those kings will eat that. So if you got a four or five weight in your hook, uh, an eighteen to twenty five pound king, you’re kind of outgunned there. So that’s kind of crazy, but we’re not targeting them. So yeah, I, I like, you know, most common I’d say is six weight. Um, we have a sixty one thirty coming out. That’d be a sweet. That’s going to be my baby down there. I can’t wait. And it’s rare that we come out with a rod that me and Barrett don’t cast first. But man, those guys that are, you know, like Marcus and the guys that are helping him design rods, like I’m like, okay, I know how to cast him. Pretty fair, but like designing them like Marcus, if you. 00:59:21 Dave: Say, yeah, those guys have it down. 00:59:24 Dax: Right? 00:59:24 Dave: Yeah, they got it down. That’s pretty cool. Yeah. Because I mean, there’s obviously it’s pretty cool, right? There’s because on both sides of the, of the pond, right. There’s these everything going on where and where’s Nom located again. Where’s the headquarters. 00:59:36 Speaker 3: There in Sweden. 00:59:37 Dave: Yeah. In Sweden. Yeah. And Sweden. We’ve done that episode we did, which was great with Marcus. We just heard, you know, that background on Sweden, which there’s all sorts of cool opportunities to fish out there. And it’s not the same as fish in Norway where you’re spending, you know, whatever the cost is for a trip, you can actually kind of find like public water type stuff over there, right? Which is pretty interesting. Yeah, I’ve. 00:59:56 Dax: Only done the one trip there and was just blown away at the level of skill that these guys we encountered on this public river that were just, I mean, this one guy, um, it was like me and Stevie Moreau and Chris O’Donnell, right? So us three are on this bank watching this guy and this guy just in terms of casting and how he’s fishing. He hooks this. You know, and these are Baltic salmon that we’re fishing for. And so he lands. And this guy is like a banker. And I’m like, this guy’s one of the best casters in. Anglers. I’m with Stevie Morrow and Chris O’Donnell and the three of us are like. Damn, this guy can fish. 01:00:33 Dave: And he’s like, literally standing on the bank and on the drive. And shooting it out. 01:00:37 Speaker 3: Oh, dude. Just. 01:00:38 Dax: Yeah, just single Spey with a full multi density line. You know, left hand, you know, and um, because we’re like, ah, we gotta, we’re gonna look like. Kooks if we catch hand any of this stuff because they just don’t do that. They’re, you. 01:00:51 Dave: Know, they. Don’t do it right. 01:00:52 Dax: Yeah. 01:00:54 Dave: There you go. 01:00:55 Dax: Um, so it was really a learning experience there and just. It was just cool. And everybody was so sweet there. And just, but just in general, just the level of angling we saw by their local community was such that we’re like, okay, this makes sense why these guys rods are so good. Um, they just they’re, they’re all about it. So, um, yeah, and, and part of, you know, me coming on with them and eventually Barrett is, is and, uh, and Stevie Morrow and Derek Botchford, you know, it’s kind of like that was knome’s idea was. Yeah. Okay, we’re doing this Atlantic salmon thing. There’s this cool Canadian Pacific Northwest steelhead thing. And it wasn’t like a, oh, let’s open up that market so we can make all. It was not it was nothing to do with that. Um, of course we need to sell rods to make the company continue, but these guys are just so into fishing and so into like our saltwater stuff. You know, Barrett and I had background with saltwater fish and they’re like, try these and then come out and they, they do their saltwater fishing up there, but it’s mostly lochs and lakes and stuff like that. Turns out the first time I tried, uh, our salt rod before we released it, I took it down. I used to do a lot of, uh, router. Uh, I’m sorry, Redfish trips down in Louisiana Marsh and, um, and I and I’m like, is it just me? And I pass it to my guy. He’s like, Jesus, is this a nine? Wait, it feels like a set. And we’re like, all right, let’s see if we can break this. I got now I got a job to do. Let’s try to find a big one. And, um, and I go in like November, December. So the big bull reds are around. And so yeah, I hooked his first fish and I’m just trying to do stupid stuff to break this rod and I couldn’t so I’m like, okay, a cast well, like, all right, all right, maybe do this and that on the cork. So it’s just been kind of fun to be involved with, not just the, the sales rep thing and, and brand development, but be involved with like, okay, when we talk about rods and what we want to come out with, you know, this, we’re such a small group and we talk about what we would like for our personal fishing, right? And then what could conceivably sell, you know, and, and it’s the same thing. We’re developing lines now. And those are there already in Europe. 01:03:13 Dave: Oh, really? Yeah. So you have the for the fly lines coming. 01:03:15 Dax: We the fly lines are coming. Um don’t know if they’ll be there this year. Um, I think I’m allowed to say they’re coming though because they’re, they’re using them and. 01:03:24 Dave: Right. 01:03:24 Dax: You know nom already had lines and another big company was making them. And then this big company stopped making them for all the independents that were using them, but they were, um, when we would drive around, um, in Sweden, almost everybody that would recognize Marcus because he’s kind of a legendary, they’d come up and they’d ask if he had any lines left, right. So they were very well received there. And they were mostly, they were pretty much all multi density stuff, which aren’t, you know, huge here. And, uh, so we’re coming out with basically like scandals and we’ve got some gadgets and Barron and I have been, they’re great, you know. Um, I’ve tried them, but they’re just not for sale or anything here. So I’m not just like, you know, showing people any of that, but they’re coming. Um, it’s and you know, we, we’ve done great with our shooting line and with our, uh, our zentai, which is our leader material. 01:04:16 Dave: Yeah. The zentai and Marcus talked about that and Brian talked about that too, right? It’s this really unique, super strong. And we’ll get a link out to that episode with Marcus because he took a deep dive on that. But yeah, that that leader or that material is pretty amazing, right? 01:04:29 Dax: It’s taken the I never thought you’d get me off maxima. 01:04:33 Dave: Yeah. Maxima’s. Maxima’s always there’s always the standard. Right? 01:04:36 Dax: It is. And it’s great stuff. And that’s what I get it. That’s what people are used to and that’s great. And um, many times I worked for a long time on the Grand Ronde with one of my best buddies, Scott O’Donnell, who’s legend and a teacher of me, one of my best mentors. And, you know, companies that do like try this and we just shake our head in the air like we’re not, we’re maxima, you know, anyway, but this stuff, and the first thing I noticed was the spool of the prototype. And I’m like, oh my God, the spool is awesome. Just the ease of which it comes on and comes off. 01:05:09 Dave: Oh, right. Yeah. Because maxima doesn’t have. It’s got that thing, that. 01:05:12 Dax: Agonizing plastic. 01:05:13 Dave: The. 01:05:13 Dax: Plastic, the rubber band. And then it comes out and gets caught in your zipper and you’re like, oh my God. Anyway, yeah, but this stuff, I love it. Dave. Because it’s floral coded mono. So it’s got the elasticity of mono, but the hard core of floral, you know, in terms of strength for winter steelhead. We should talk about this. I use thirty five pound thirty. 01:05:34 Dave: five pound. 01:05:34 Dax: Yeah. But it’s about the diameter of fifteen pound maximum a fifteen. 01:05:39 Dave: Right. And that’s your if you ask Brian on the Skeena he’d tell you twenty pound maxima. That’s you’re essentially getting stronger material and it’s thinner diameter. 01:05:48 Dax: Yep. And so because we have sixteen pound. But that’s like three x or two x. And so that’s not going to turn over a lead I intruder for instance. Or you know you’ve got like that stuff like the guys that are fishing like Bobbers and stuff like that. And guys in the Midwest, they’re just like, oh my God. Like, it’s almost too strong, right? Like if you’re fishing, like lead inside drifting. And for me, I’m like, there’s no such thing as too strong because if I’m at Tidewater on the dean trying to land the fish of my lifetime without a net. Right? And I don’t I don’t use a net most of the time. It’s just it’s got O’Donnell as a mentor and him and Keaton. And that could be a whole nother that could be a whole nother podcast episode. 01:06:34 Dave: Right. Landing fish. Right the right way. 01:06:36 Dax: Yeah. And, and not to, to, uh, you know, promote another podcast, but, um, Scott O’Donnell did a podcast with Finn and fire. Oh, yeah. And yeah, he talks about the no net thing and why, and Scott can articulate it and break it down way better than I. 01:06:53 Dave: Finn and fire. That’s a yeah. We’ll definitely get a link to that episode with Scott O’Donnell. That’d be. 01:06:58 Dax: Oh, it’s fantastic. And just the way he breaks it down, it’s like it’s pretty hard to argue against it. 01:07:04 Dave: Well, I was just going to ask you to. So we won’t go in. We won’t go in deep to the landing fish. We’ll save it for that. That people can listen to that fin and fire. 01:07:10 Dax: But there’s an art form to it. 01:07:12 Dave: There is an art form. I always feel like it’s, um, you know, for somebody newer to it probably. And this might apply to trout too, it’s probably better having a net just because you know what I mean. You’re going to do less handling of the fish. But if you’re experiencing I’m the same way. I mean, my dad kind of taught me how to land fish. We never had nets, you know, and so I always landed steelhead without a net, you know, and you just get that you figure out, you know, you learn how to do it, right, but it’s not easy. What’s your biggest for somebody listening? Just a quick tip. How do you land? What’s the biggest secret to landing a steelhead without a net? 01:07:40 Dax: Well, like when it gets first of all, you’re in a really good dilemma, right? 01:07:45 Dave: First, you’re landing the fish. Yeah, you’ve even if you lose it, even if it loses, you’ve probably seen the. 01:07:49 Dax: Fish happen here. I can finally land this fish. Finally. One, two ate it. Finally. He’s not off yet. I didn’t break him off yet. All that. Um, the first thing to do is avoid the urge to drag him into the gravel onto the beach. Right. And then go while he’s flopping around, remove the hook. So you need to kind of look and see a conceivable place where you could land this fish, where the water isn’t too deep, where you could still swim away from you easily, but deep enough where he could stay in the water, which is the whole point, right? And then, so it depends on the length of your leader slash sink tip. So if I can add in the length of the rod, but generally if you strip too much line or reel too much line into your rod tip, then you could be walking to try to grab the sink tip slash leader and you can’t reach it, right? Because it’s really too much of it in and it’s all awkward. So have enough out. And often it’s like right where a six inches of your shooting head out. And then there’s your, your sink tip, right? So then I pinch my control finger and then strip out four feet or so under my control finger. So it’s like off the reel. So I have that slack for when I grab the leader, right? I’m not going to break my rod tip. 01:09:10 Dave: Yeah. 01:09:11 Dax: That’s huge. 01:09:12 Dave: That’s huge. Yeah. 01:09:13 Dax: If you grab the leader and your lines tight to the reel and you got your drag cranked down because you’re scared of losing the fish, that’s a great way to break the tip of your rod. 01:09:21 Dave: Yes you could. You could do that. Right. 01:09:23 Dax: Spey rods are famous for that. Like Spey rods break most often when you’re landing fish. Ask Pat Bing and I think he had him on. Or you know, any of those those Dean guides. 01:09:35 Dave: Yeah we. 01:09:35 Dax: Did. And that even with nets. Right. It’s just fish do all kind of crazy when you get them in the shallows, you know? So, you know, when you’ve pretty much won in this fish is ready to be landed. You know, I’m going to get them in that like magical couple feet of water, hopefully if I can. And um, I’m going to get that line pinched and stripped off. I’m bringing the tip over my head and if I need to get it closer, then you could twist your arm back behind you and bend your wrist. And that brings the tip even closer, brings the line even closer. That works with a single iron rod, too. And then when you grab the line, you have all that slack. Then you let go of the slack and then your rod’s nice and straight instead of bent in a crazy manner. Now, at that point, the fish might kick a little bit again. So I’m looking to right now to get them where I can grab his tail, right. And that’s why I like our stuff, because the elasticity of that, it tends to break a lot less than if it was straight fluoro or a weaker material, because there’s a lot going on right there. And also don’t just put like if sometimes I have clients show up and I’m like, were you fishing this? And there’s only like fifteen inches of leader after they’re sensitive, they’re like, oh, I want my fly to be close to my sink, right? I’m like, dude, that like, there’s no elasticity in this thing. Like you’re gonna break this fish off. Um, so that doesn’t make, you know how, you know, let’s just say at least three feet, right? 01:11:05 Dave: Yeah, yeah. 01:11:06 Dax: Um, and probably more if you blow your anchor a lot while you take power off your forward stroke, that’s. 01:11:11 Dave: Another more than three feet. Yeah. Right. 01:11:14 Dax: That’s another story. But anyway. And then yeah, when you grab the wrist and the tail, you know, you’re going to go behind the adipose fin, of course, which is tells you it’s a wild fish and hopefully you get one. You got to grab it by the wrist of its tail, right. And then once you get it and again, you’ve already kind of scoped it out. Hopefully you have a safe place to kind of set your rod down. If you want to do the put it over your shoulder thing. There’s all those other things. But the fish is my first concern is the main thing. I don’t want this fish. I don’t want him getting sand in its gills. I don’t want to get, you know, I’m hoping the hook comes out and it’s minor. Barb, I don’t care if you’re allowed to have the bar, I don’t care, I’d barb it, I just do. 01:11:57 Dave: Barb is the way to go. 01:11:59 Dax: Yeah, it’s easier to get out of me and my clients, too. So, um, but the fish is the first priority. And when a fish is on its side, they tend to really chill out, right? If he’s still, you know, his normal way, you know, like, I guess parallel in the, uh, in the car, he’s gonna kick and then you gotta land him and go through all of it again, right? And that might happen, you know, until even with a lot of practice, you know, this is kind of the moment that you wait for. And so, um, yeah, so having that slack line out so you don’t break the rod, getting the fish in the place where you can get them on inside and grab that tail, remove the hook, have your forceps close by if you do need a picture. Have your dude already. Don’t pick that fish out of the water until you’re in the frame. And the guy, it’s like, here’s my phone, here’s that phone, here’s this, here’s that. Right? 01:12:50 Dave: All that right, right, right. 01:12:52 Dax: The fish should be in the water during all of that. Chilling out and. 01:12:56 Dave: A quick second photo. Yeah. 01:12:58 Dax: And you know, then somebody might ask, well, if I have a big net, he’s in the playpen. That’s true. But in no matter what kind of net you have, you know, like maybe kicks and maybe his gill gets caught in that, maybe his maxillary gets caught in that. Maybe again, there’s listen to Scott’s thing and he’ll go over all that. 01:13:15 Dave: Well, you know, I see it now. It shows. It’s episode thirty nine of the Fin and Fire perfect podcast with says highly recommend. 01:13:23 Dax: It’s so good. I might listen to it again. 01:13:25 Dave: I haven’t. 01:13:25 Dax: Heard it since it came out, but. 01:13:27 Dave: Yeah, we’ll do that. So cool. So the tippet, obviously we talked about that. That’s great. We talked about the Klamath. So Klamath River, you’re going to be down there again. And then that October piece that you come back, is that just more of the same of what you’re doing earlier in the summer? Yeah. 01:13:40 Dax: It’s different. So the early parts, I run out of a lodge. Um, and that’s in August and September. And um, yeah, if anyone’s interested, they need like I’m booking it in like twenty eight for that at this point. Um, and then, uh, Spey camp with Confluence Outfitters, I do that in October. Um, so October. Yep. And so that’s camping on the river. The other one, you’re staying in a, in a lodge, you know, inside. Um, Spey camp is glamping though there like wall tents. You’re driving. 01:14:09 Dave: Right? 01:14:09 Dax: You know, it’s super woodstoves. Yeah. All that stuff. Yeah. You’re it’s epic. And then the last thing, um, Mike trout, you know, thing is fall River Valley, California, and that’s in May and June and that’s also based out of a lodge. Um, and you fish three different sections of river, mostly dry flies and sinking line, no side drifting. Um, we teach you how to cast. We teach you how to fish. All my stuff is very instruction based and the guides I work with, you know, if you’re new to Spey casting or new to anything, you know, we, we enjoy that. We actually we welcome the people that, um, either want to get better at If they’ve already been doing it a while and want to get to that next level. But if you want to bring your brother in law along or your neighbor or whatever. We’re fine with that. And we provide everything for all my group trips that I do. Throughout the year. 01:15:01 Dave: Gotcha. Cool. Well, let’s take it out of here in our kind of our tip segment. This is going to be just a quick blast. A couple questions and we hit on a couple of these already. But one of them was on leader length. Um, you mentioned what is the, you know, how do you determine the length of the leader? Is it pretty standard for you? Do you just kind of have one set length or are you adjusting that throughout the season? 01:15:20 Dax: That depends. 01:15:22 Dave: It depends. 01:15:23 Dax: There’s a yeah, that depends too much. And so it’s yeah. And there’s different, you know, thing I might want to fish a certain way. I might lengthen it. I might put a, you know, I might put a tungsten head on and maybe cast a little more cross. You know, it just depends on too many variables. Having a too short is definitely one of the ones I wanted to bring up though, is I do see that a fair amount. And man, I keep blowing anchor, you know? Right. Your leader’s too short, man. That leader, you know. 01:15:49 Dave: Yeah, well, it’s interesting, because I think one of the only guys I’ve ever heard that goes super short like that eighteen inches was Jeff Lisk when we were talking about all that South Shore Lake Erie stuff. And he fishes. There’s times when they fish that really short leader, but it’s a different fishing. I think they’re kind of fishing over these ledges and yeah, it’s kind of in tight and there’s smaller rivers, right. But it’s uh, but yeah, I always love that. So yeah, longer leaders and I mean, I always feel like, you know, you’re whatever your leader length is five, six feet. You mentioned three somewhere in that range. That’s probably. Yeah, that’s a start. Yeah. 01:16:19 Dax: They’re usually like more in that five and they end up, you know, because you’re, oh, let’s try this flyer. That one kind of grinded and I’m kind of a leader snob both in my trout fishing and still had fish. If I run my fingers down that and feel anything out of the ordinary, I put on a fresh piece. I just do it. I’m a big advocate of that. Um, not because I sell the stuff either. It’s just I’ve always been that way. I learned that in New Zealand. Yeah. You know. 01:16:45 Dave: Yeah. Change it up. Yeah. Good. Well, the final one is just on again. High level tips. So somebody we’re winter steelhead time right now. What is something you’re telling somebody on reading water. That seems to be always the challenge when you come up to a new piece of water, what are you evaluating as you look at that thing to know you know where to start. If you’ve got a bunch of different places, you can. 01:17:03 Dax: Go inside first. 01:17:05 Dave: Inside. 01:17:05 Dax: first, walk up to a run. I look at the speed and then I, I evaluate the inside of it and I’m very I’m going to have a heavy focus on the inside first. And that doesn’t matter if I’m a mile above Tidewater or eighty miles above Tidewater, and there’s boulders and rocks and stuff all over the place. Inside I’m looking at the inside first and like that boulders and rocks sort of place. Like I always come up to the Sol Duc because I spent ten years working on the peninsula. It was one of my favorite rivers. On a river like that, where you will be waiting deep at times and you will have trees and brush around you. A good rod would be like an eleven and a half foot eight weight, and Nom has when it was actually developed on Haida Gwaii. Um, Derek and Stevie um, helped design that whole thing. And so it’s an eleven, seven, eight weight and that’s a great rod for that kind of situation. And even on our smaller rivers on the southern coast, um, I used that on the North Umpqua too. Even in the summer, um, if I’m on some ledgy stuff where I know I’m going to be under trees, that eleven, seven, eight weight is key that that’s in my quiver and that’s. Yep. And that’s a really good one. It’s an epic waters design. Um, it’s a six piece, which is cool. I love our six piece rods. Um, they break down for travel super easy, you know. So I’m doing a couple trips to BC every year. Yeah. I’m gravitating towards just bringing six pieces because they’re so easy to travel with. And we have multiple series. And I think that’s, you know, for us, our newest series that’s coming out are lighter or Ren Lite Sp-a. Those are all going to be six piece. They will. Um, yeah. 01:18:44 Dave: The six piece. What is the I guess take it away on that because it seems like the six piece is a no brainer. You know, especially if you do a lot of traveling. Yeah. Is there any disadvantage of the six piece? 01:18:55 Dax: No, it’s just what the technology is such that nowadays that there is no disadvantage. Um, yeah, I, I really dig it, you know, and, and ours fit together so great. I don’t use like, um, ferro wax or any of that. Right. 01:19:10 Dave: Yeah. You don’t the taping back in the day. Right. Taping your referrals and stuff. 01:19:13 Dax: Yeah, yeah. That’s just the hockey tape. That’s a bamboo rod thing, you know, and it’s like, you don’t have to do that with ours. We have line up dots and I make sure I’m checking those and tightening them. And if I have somebody that’s like hacking away, like for I’m like, oh my God, Bob is just crushing his foot. Like, I should check that. 01:19:35 Dave: Yeah, check it every once in a while. That’s a. 01:19:37 Dax: Good tip. So yeah, if you got multi, well, even on a four piece. You got it. 01:19:41 Dave: Yeah. 01:19:41 Dax: You gotta you gotta check that every now and then. There’s nothing. Sometimes, you know, you, you would walk up and I’m like, I’m always doing the eye check. I look through all the eye, the snake guides and make sure they’re all lined up because I mean, like that it’s straight lines make straight casts. And if it’s twisted or whatnot, then that’s shooting lines not going through there as efficiently. So yeah, I, I, I really dig our six piece rods and we have five piece rods too. So, and that’s, I dig that. I think other companies, you’ll probably in the future start seeing more of those. 01:20:13 Dave: Yeah. What’s that just again takeaway here on this one the five versus the six. So what is the advantage of the five over the six. 01:20:19 Dax: It’s just the I’ll go to the advantage of the six and I won’t I don’t like advantage. Marcus would probably be like what do you mean advantage? 01:20:26 Dave: Yeah. Advantage. Right. 01:20:27 Dax: There’s like six pieces because they break down evenly, like. So I break them in half. Yeah, I break rods in half all the time to. 01:20:34 Dave: Put. 01:20:35 Dax: On my rack in the back of my truck. And you could, you could break down a five, just not right in half. So. Stevie Mauro has a way that he does it. I have a way, I do it. Leslie has a way. She does it. It’s just from a, you know, American standpoint, right? Like I like to break it right in half and. 01:20:54 Dave: Then in half. 01:20:55 Dax: And you know that. And they kind of gone away from it. I mean, you remember like, uh, nine foot rods, there used to be the big, you know, canon rod cases where you break it in half and shove it in there. I can’t find any of the major companies that are even making those anymore. Um, because when I’m on fall River, I have like eight rods and I want to just break them all in half and store them in my truck and whatnot. 01:21:19 Dave: Yeah, yeah, they’re all, they’re all just the tubes now, right? It’s pretty much just your one rod. Take off the reel. 01:21:24 Dax: Yeah. So I could leave it rigged up if I leave it in two pieces. But if I have to break it down to four pieces, then the leader gets all mangled. 01:21:31 Dave: Yeah, it’s too much. 01:21:32 Dax: And. Yeah, but a cute piece. I just reel it in to the fly and break it in half. And then it’s quicker to put together like in the boat. I grab it because we use smaller boats on fall River in general, especially on the upper river. So I kind of miss those old, you know, kind of because it’s just easier to store rods that way instead of having five rods. And then they all get twisted together and mangled and. 01:21:53 Dave: Yeah, yeah, that’s right, that’s right. God, this has been great. Dax. I think that, uh, like always, there’s always all these topics and I think we’ll have to follow up with you and bring you back on here and talk more. But this has been great today. I think if anybody has questions, we can send them to Dax Y.com also obviously non products. Uh is it non products dash Usa.com. Is that the best place for people in the US. 01:22:16 Dax: That’s correct. 01:22:17 Dave: Yeah. Okay. So we got that there and then and obviously on social media. But yeah, this has been great today. Appreciate all the the knowledge and look forward to that next one. 01:22:25 Dax: All right. I really appreciate you having me. I really appreciate it, Dave. Take care. 01:22:30 Dave: All right. Before we get out of here, if you get a chance, if you’re interested in checking out Nom or any of Dax his trips. Anything going there? I’m checking with Dax. Let him know you heard this podcast. That would be amazing today. If you’re interested, next week we’re kicking off our dry fly school. This is the Missouri River Dry Fly school with on to Mark Lodge. This is going to be going on later this summer. We’re doing the the giveaway event for one winner. Big winner is going to be starting next week. If you’re interested in the trip itself, fishing the Big Mo. I’ll be there this year along with some folks from the podcast listeners of the show. Just check in with me, Dave at Netflix dot com and I think I’ll leave it there for the day. We’ve got a full episode list coming up for you, so I hope you enjoyed this one and hope to see you on the water. All right. Hope you have a good afternoon, evening or morning, wherever you are in the world. We’ll talk to you on that next one. See you then. 01:23:21 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode visit Wet Fly dot com.