907 | The Story Behind Fishpond and Modern Fly Fishing Gear with Johnny Le Coq

WFS 907 Transcript 00:00:00 Dave: What do cassette tapes, climbing rope handles, recycled fishing nets and carbon fiber nets all have in common. They’re part of one of the most unlikely journeys in fly fishing. Today we sit down with Jonny Le Coq the founder of fishpond. But long before fishpond changed the way we carry gear on the river. Jonny helped build Case Logic into the global leader and music storage, from designing ski boot bags in the eighties to disrupting the fly fishing industry in the late nineties. With the first modern chess pack, Jonny has spent a life rethinking how we carry things that matter. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Jonny Le Coq is here today and we are going to find out about fishpond. We’re going to get the whole history, including how they became the first B Corporation in fly fishing, why waterproof bags fail and what most anglers don’t know about the zippers. We’re going to find out about the origin of the tacky fly box line and how he created, and why science on the fly, and how that’s turning anglers into citizen scientists across the country. If you’ve ever clipped tip and dispenser from your pack, carried a nomad net, or wondered how a fly fishing brand can actually influence conservation, this conversation is going to hit home. All right, here’s the story behind fishpond. Johnny Lecoq. How are you doing, Johnny? 00:01:27 John: Good morning. Talking to you from Mexico this morning. But I love what you’re doing, Dave. And so proud of all the content you’ve done and happy being humbled to be a part of, uh, one of your episodes. 00:01:37 Dave: Amazing. Amazing. No. It’s kind of cool how this stuff works because, you know, your name’s been on my mind, you know, and just what you’ve done for a long time. I think you guys have been an industry leader, and it’s kind of cool because all these years we haven’t connected until now. And finally we get a chance to to dig into Fish Pond, right? The story of, of how you built this brand and, and now you’re doing these amazing things in conservation. We’re going to talk about that today. I’m really excited. So maybe take us back first. You know, I’d love to hear like Fish Pond. Was that something that was always on your mind as a, as a youngster or how did that come to be? 00:02:09 John: Yeah. Well, you know, angling, like a lot of the people that you’ve interviewed on your podcast, I mean, angling starts for most of us at a young age, right? In some form, uh, interest in fish or water or, you know, it may not just be fly fishing, but it’s, it’s interesting in, in water and catching fish. And that magic happens to a lot of us early in life and it just sticks with us. And, and it’s a passion that, you know, as a kid with my dad, we had, we had lakes. I grew up in Colorado and we had a cabin. And, you know, like a lot of, you know, kids, whether boys or girls, they get out and they’re throwing bobbers and they’re throwing spinners and things like that in a lake. But that quickly morphed into just this somehow mysterious passion of things underwater and, and fish. And, uh, you know, I used to catch fish with my hands in a little irrigation ditch that through the middle of our property, and I would wait till they turned off the irrigation ditch and there’d be trout, you know, kind of stranded in these pools, and I’d go and catch them with my hands. And there was just something just so magical about, you know, that fish. But, you know, it grew into just a obviously just a passion and sport, you know, through college and things. And I, you know, I didn’t start fishpond. Well, I started fishpond twenty five years ago. I founded it at my ranch in Colorado. But how I got there, it’s kind of an intertwined story. I didn’t want to hear the whole thing, but yeah. 00:03:30 Dave: Yeah, no, let’s hear it. I think this is what’s great about the podcast. We get an opportunity to, to hear and you know, I know. Yeah, people would love to hear it. 00:03:37 John: Yeah. So I’m a Colorado boy. I’m just a, I’m a trout guy, pretty much, you know, people fish all over the world for a lot of different species. But I’m, uh, you know, kind of centric on, on trout most of my life. And just because of where I live in the mountains of Colorado, but, you know, kind of the journey to Fish Pond was kind of multiple things. But, you know, I started well, first of all, my, my main career in my life has been as a photographer. I’ve shot on location in seventy two countries of the world for, you know, big corporations, fortune fifty companies, Apple Computer, Microsoft, Federal Express, UPS, you know, big brands. So, you know, a couple hundred days a year traveling on the road, creating photographs to tell the story of, of big companies. And so, you know, I moved from Colorado to San Francisco. That was where my studio was. And in that period of time as a photographer, I was asked to shoot a catalog for a ski company called Spyder Active Sports. So I created some of the branding, the logo catalogs for this brand, Spyder. And during that process, they had asked me to help them design a ski boot bag. And having never designed any physical product before, it was kind of a challenge. And so I helped them. This is in the eighties. They asked me to help them design a ski boot bag, which I did, and I learned a few things about, you know, making product. Um, so at the same time, one of the partners of spider said, hey, you know, I’ve got these cassette tapes all over the floor of my car and, you know, could you help me design a cassette kit case? So which I did. And, uh, we founded a company called Case Logic, which. Oh, yeah, maybe you’re probably way too young to even know about what? 00:05:19 Speaker 3: No no no no no no. 00:05:20 Dave: I know case logic. Well, yeah, that’s a huge. Yeah. So you founded Case Logic? 00:05:24 John: Yes. Yeah. Co-founded it with a partner. And, uh, but we ramped that up into B, you know, the world leader in music storage. And at the time it was cassette tapes and then all of a sudden moved into CDs. And then we moved into, you know, photo storage and bags and organization. The tool company from Sweden owns the brand now. But anyhow, it was the foundation day of, of design and looking at disrupting what people were accustomed to, and it’s something new and innovative and fresh. You know, at the time, you know, cassette tape or, you know, music storage was just old naugahyde, you know, rubber plastic cases with, you know, silver buckles. And, you know, it wasn’t really fun to carry your music around in that. So we created something kind of sporty and fun with color and we just disrupted that industry. And so it was fun. And then, uh, the early nineties when I sold, uh, the brand, you know, I came back to Colorado. I bought my ranch where I’d been living for the last thirty three years. And my two girls grew up there. But after a couple of years, I was still shooting pictures around the world. But I wanted to do something to leverage my my factory contacts, my factory relationships in Asia, and to do something that really resonated more with with my, my own heartbeat and music storage was never it. I mean, I think it was just something I probably owned, you know, five CDs in my life, you know, before that time. But I, you know, fly fishing was just where my heart sank. And so one day, you know, sitting around, I said, yo, man, I’m going to get back into doing something with product. And on the, you know, the deck of my, my house in my ranch, I kind of started sketching out the first ideas of what was needed in the fly fishing industry. And this is nineteen ninety nine. So our first trade show was two thousand in Salt Lake City at the fly fishing retailer show, you know, and so to really be a disruptor in the fly fishing industry, which I knew I needed to do something really radically different. You know, I looked at what was out there at the time. Now it seems kind of, you know, odd because there’s so many great offerings from different brands in the industry. But, you know, it was pretty much an old man’s, you know, kind of smoking a pipe kind of scenario. It was, you know, khaki vests and, uh, you know, big neoprene waders. And it wasn’t very exciting. So I just moved into this realm of, uh, thinking of really innovative design. What stuck with the fishpond brand all the way through for the last twenty five years of creating really innovative, different ways to use product while we’re fishing to help us become more organized, but also to make us feel it’s almost like skiing or something, or sports or clothing becomes a part of your persona, right? I mean, it becomes, I mean, if you feel sporty, you feel like you’re part of the sport. It’s like skateboarding, whatever. I mean, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a field. 00:08:17 Dave: Or like a one thing I’ve been thinking about is Patagonia. You know, I’ve got this new Patagonia puffy jacket that a lot of listeners have been talking about. And man, you put it on in the cold weather. You’re just like, oh man, I’m ready. I’m ready to climb a mountain. Right? That’s kind of the feel, right? You kind of put on the thing and you become that. 00:08:34 John: Well, it has to be functional, which is the most important thing with any fishpond product. Uh, but it also has to have a design aesthetic where you feel good wearing it, it. You feel it put you into a certain place, if that makes sense. So we started out and we just created some very, very esoteric Typekit dispensers and clippers that had built in retractors. You know, I designed the first drop down fly bench that ever existed in the fly fishing industry. The first chess pack ever that was out there, uh, sling packs. 00:09:05 Dave: Oh, really? So all that so ninety nine, what was your first product that really hit hard out there? 00:09:11 John: Well, they look, you know, I mean, if you go back to that time, you know, we’ve morphed, but the I created the product called the Roaring Fork Chess pack. And it was kind of a rudimentary, you know, pack that you put around your neck and stuff around your guest. And it’s this big bench that just dropped down where you put all your flies organizing it. But what made it great was that it was simple. We didn’t need to carry these big, huge pockets filled with things and whatever. And it was just an alternative to to what was out there. And I used colorful webbing. uh, jacquard webbing. Uh, and most people said, Johnny, you know, fly anglers, they want green. They want, they want something really conservative. And I said, I don’t think so, but I think, you know, guys, they like color. It’s like your Patagonia jacket. You’re not just going to wear a green jacket. I mean, there’s colors, you know, men like colors. And at the time, angling was mostly fly fishing was mostly very male centric. So, you know, but I did, I created color and I created options and things just took off because we were so different than anybody else. And not only from a look perspective, but from a function perspective. And we created, you know, really organized ways to use your gear. As you can see now in the fishpond brand, I mean, we’ve just kept doing that all the way through. But you know, David, that’s kind of the same. So, you know, we launched fishpond and I just kept at it and every year was something different. And we got the best reps in the industry. My friend Van Rojo, who was instrumental in the foundation of the company. Because he was a Sims rep, he had some of the best brands in the industry, probably the most respected fly fishing rep in the industry. He was in Boulder, Colorado. But Vann, who took a chance, he knew a little bit about case logic. He knew that we had something different, took a chance on us, and he helped, you know, align us with other Sims reps. And the best reps in the industry in different parts of the country. So right out of the chute, we had people who believed in us. They had the context, they had the dealers, and we were able to penetrate the market pretty quickly. 00:11:14 Dave: So yeah, you pretty much came out with a product that stuck out, looked different, and but also had some products that were different, like was the chess pack. There wasn’t a lot of those chess packs at the time. In ninety nine. 00:11:25 John: zero. 00:11:25 Dave: zero, there were none. So this was like the first chess pack. 00:11:28 John: Yeah. And we did some best products. And you can see kind of the timeline arc of what, what crate over the years on our on websites and things. And I can send that to you. But I, you know, we just kept morphing into more complex, more innovative, you know, chess packs. Everything that was modular, there was a few. Like today, if you buy a chess pack, it works with any of our backpacks. I mean, everything is modular, so you can switch and play. You can wear a chess pack. You don’t have to wear the backpack with it. Or if you want, if you’re jumping into a river canyon, you know, you don’t want your chest pack on your chest. As you’re walking down for a few miles, you can strap it to the back of your backpack. So it’s, there’s just, you know, we just thought everything through. And my passion is design. My passion is just creating product that is relevant, I guess for the, for fly fishing, but really fits with the outdoor industry as well. I mean, these are very fishpond product can live with the most technical product that’s created for the outdoor industry. 00:12:28 Dave: Yeah, it’s ready for I was thinking of a, you know, like a trip, you know, you’re getting ready for your Alaskan adventure, right? A ten day week long trip and you would have a lot of gear for that, right? The waterproof stuff. And it sounds like not just fly fishing. Do you guys have you gone outside and you kind of think more of the outdoor industry? 00:12:44 John: Um, no, but I mean, you know, we have our waterproof, which we really paved the path for waterproof bags. You know, our waterproof gear, which is in my opinion, the best that that is made anywhere in the world. It kind of set the bar. And so the outdoor industry, people can use it on boats. They can use it in a lot of different applications anywhere, whether it’s a really wet environment where mostly, I mean, your survival sometimes depends on keeping your gear dry. So, you know, our product is to that caliber. I mean, we with our fabrics, which is all recycled, everything we do is recycled from a sustainability perspective. But you know, it’s just we really kind of set the bar with that. So the outdoor industry has adapted and adopted our product, but our focus with the fishpond brand has always been to our core, which are fly fishing anglers. 00:13:34 Dave: Yeah, the waterproof packs are interesting because there’s a lot of them out there. I’ve used a lot. There’s all sorts of different types. And you know, I’m not sure like what separates the, you know, the stuff you guys do. Maybe for the other packs, like what are their features or is it just the durability? What do you think is the biggest thing? 00:13:49 John: I think quality and durability is a big one. I mean, people, serious anglers who use our product and it kind of runs around the line. I mean, if you look at like nomad nets, I mean, when we we purchased nomad nets when they had just one product from a guy named Kevin Best, who was working at a company that made lacrosse sticks and, you know, anyhow, but we recognize that that could be a game changer in the net industry. And everything else was wood at that point, right? There was no carbon fiber. There was none of that stuff. And so we took that category. And today you hardly see a photograph on any social media, Instagram, anywhere around the world without somebody using a nomad net. It’s kind of become the standard out there, which we’re proud of. There has been few people to enter that market. It’s been there’s been some people you know, recently have come into it. A lot of people knock us off. But it’s, you know, it’s never the same quality. But from a feature perspective, we’re just those were carbon fiber. They were light. They were, you know, all the variety of hoop sizes. We give choices and we give anglers, you know, like for example, on the soft goods isn’t waterproof. Do we make a small like the Canyon Creek chest pack? It’s just a small little chest pack that sits on your chest, holds a couple fly boxes. You know, it’s just simplicity. And I think we offer that as well as a system of full on vest with somebody who wants to carry, you know, the kitchen sink with them and also with a backpack. We have that as well. But also that little Canyon Creek chest pack can be docked to a backpack if you want to. 00:15:26 Dave: Or I can or not. 00:15:27 John: So, I mean, there’s just options. So I think the answer to your question, Dave, is modularity and function for accessories because we make a lot of accessories. So you want your, you know, your clippers, your hemos and you know, your, your typical whatever to, to sit on, on your product and, you know, like tip a dispenser. Yeah, we make a really beautiful aluminum tip dispenser that stacks up your spools of tip it and there’s places to put, you know, that dispenser in a variety of locations to best suit a person’s style of how they fish. So we just think about things like that. 00:16:05 Dave: Yeah, the Candy Creek, I don’t have that back, but I have something similar in size and I love the size because you’re right. Having something very simple, like I’m out there fishing for summer steelhead and having that little pack for just a box and a couple of little tip and stuff, you know, it’s perfect. You recently, so you’ve sold now it sounds like your shares of fishpond. What do you feel like as you look ahead? I know I was at one of the shows recently and they had the the Storm Shadow chess pack, which I think is a newer pack. As you look ahead, how do you transfer everything your knowledge over? Is it already transferred to the team? And can you just walk away and know fishpond will be good? Looking ahead. 00:16:39 John: Yeah. You know, I mean, we’ve seen a lot of disruption in the industry with brands that have sold. I mean, you see that, you know, sometimes the same vision doesn’t always persist. And brands that move into a corporate realm, especially, you know, big private equity firms, etc., you know, the guys at fishpond now are, are just so attuned to what the brand is, the ethos of the brand, the responsibility to design, etc.. And after twenty five years of designing all the product, you know, I’ve set a platform of there’s kind of a map or a guideline of what to follow. I mean, we have a design language, which is easy as long as. And the guys in the fishpond, they’re, they’re very focused on that. They know they, they just didn’t swoop in from outside. They were two equal partners in the business who came in, who were very capable and young. And here’s another point. I think what happened with fishpond when we first started the brand, you know, it was kind of this mid forties, fifties kind of angler. As gear got better, as gear became more exciting, more technical. We started to attract a younger crowd also. And fly fishing became like a really cool sport. It became like, oh cool, I can go do this. So college aged kids, young people, uh, women, I mean, we, we just saw a complete shift in how youth became involved in the business. And then just like this podcast, we grew up with social media to where all of a sudden, you know, people were seeing images and sharing images and visually the sport became impactful. It became, I mean, the visual world was such a punch. So then youth became involved and they started using the social media. And it just it was a game changer for dealers for the spirit of what fly fishing represents, you know, and to me the responsibility which I learned very quickly at fishpond. You know, we first started out as a brand that, you know, of course, we wanted to make money and make it a great little business. But I quickly realized that the products that we make were secondary to the responsibility that we had as to the sport, and to be able to use the brand and products to help teach people about the responsibility towards the environment. So that became a big focus of our brand, and I just hope that continues in the future. 00:18:57 Dave: Trout Roots by Onix is built for fly anglers who want better Intel without spending hours digging for the information. You’ll get access to public land maps, stream access points, regulations, and even road and trail maps all in one place. It’s become my go to app for scouting new trips. You can check them out right now, go to Webflow Complex routes and download the app today. Where did that. Because that is obviously, I think a lot of people in fly fishing. You know, they get started regardless of their background in conservation. They it seems like people get into it, you know, because they learn, you know, it’s important. Obviously protecting species and the habitat for you. Has that always been part of you, or was that fly fishing that brought that ethos into your thinking? 00:19:41 John: I think it was probably fly fishing. I mean, I’ve always been very, you know, concerned about our environment. Animal welfare species are what I mostly am concerned about. But when you start talking about water and the importance of water, especially in the West this year where we have a severe drought. I mean, I think some of the worst, you know, snowpack levels I’ve ever seen in my lifetime. Um, and I think in Salt Lake City, it’s one hundred and thirty years since they’ve seen snow levels so low. 00:20:09 Speaker 4: Oh, wow. 00:20:10 John: So we have a major shortage of water in the West. It’s going to impact, you know, not only sport but the agricultural community. The Colorado River, which runs just fifteen miles from my ranch on the western slope of Colorado. Is drinking water for forty four million people. 00:20:27 Speaker 4: Wow. 00:20:27 John: Just just drinking water, let alone the use of water for agriculture all across the seven basin states. So the conservation, we won’t have an industry unless we band together and everybody in the fly angling community to start using their reach, their power to talk to their local town council, to the local people, to help shift the focus of protecting our natural ecosystems, biodiversity in our water systems. 00:20:56 Dave: No, it’s that’s huge. Definitely the most important thing, obviously. And, well, it sounds like I mean, we’ve got a little bit of background on, on fishpond, so let’s just stay on that track on the conservation a little bit. What are you focused on these days? What’s what’s keeping you busy? What can people be thinking about as far as, you know, how do we impact, you know, water and all that? 00:21:15 John: Well, I, I’m on the board of directors of the Nature Conservancy, which is the world’s largest, you know, conservation organization with offices in over eighty countries of the world. And so I do a lot of work with the Nature Conservancy on water related issues, on policy. I go to Washington and meet with senators, and the voice that I carry with fishpond is it gives me a little clout because people can understand it, because a lot of people in who work in the policy side, in politics, you know, they can kind of get it. They may fish or they they’re anglers. And so they kind of resonate with, okay, here’s a person in whose business depends on on water, on sustainability. And I can kind of get it. So I feel like I, it gives me a little better seat at the table when I, when it comes to talking about policy and I leverage my relationships with people who do fish, who care about it, who have the capacity not only financially sometimes, but just connections, etc., to help steer the course of creating, you know, positive impact. And I’m also on the board of directors of the Woodwell Climate Research Center, which is in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. And we work on climate related issues, which a lot of it is water and deforestation and impacts to ecosystems. So that keeps me busy a lot. But one part of what I’m doing now is I founded a group six years ago called science on the Fly, and science on the fly is a amazing organization. It basically unites the fly fishing community and river scientists, which are basically citizen scientists to study, protect and restore rivers around the world. So that was, you know, between myself and the Woodwell Climate Research Center, fishpond helped give us some reach to that because we could reach a lot of people through our our social media, etc.. And we started, you know, aligning ourselves with people. We have one hundred and fifty citizen scientists every, uh, you know, a month studying over three hundred and fifty rivers, taking water samples monthly and sending the water samples back to us at the Woodville Climate Research Center. And so we’re leveraging angling, we’re leveraging fly fishing to engage these anglers who care about their their own backyards, the water and their their own little community to say, I’m going to make a difference. I’m going to I’m going to get these water samples to Woodville so they can study them. So these water samples that come in from, you know, over forty five states now in the United States and six different countries, you know, we’re studying the analysis of the of the water is basically to analyze the, you know, the concentration levels of nitrate of phosphate of silica, ammonium, dissolved organic carbons, and dissolved nitrogen. And that information gives us a data set, which we published on the science on the fly website, science on the fly org website, which is public data, uh, that communities and policy makers and other scientists around the world can use to inform them on the health of our, our, our water systems. So that’s keeping us busy and that’s really fun. I’ve got amazing, uh, partners who work with me on that. And, um, so that’s keeping me busy today. 00:24:32 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:24:32 Dave: That’s amazing. Yeah, I love it. Science on the fly. Dot o r g here. I’m looking at it here and people can get involved. It looks like pretty easily there. So the water quality samples basically you’re just if somebody’s listening now and they’re in their, you know, whatever state, how would they get the sample? How does that work to get. And then, and then the samples they take, does it matter if they’re in the city or versus like out in nature in the rural area? 00:24:53 John: Yeah. I think the key is, is that we just want people committed to saying, hey, here’s a creek, here’s a piece of water that, you know, unknown that’s down the street, down the, you know, whatever, wherever they like to fish, have access to that can take this sample. We send them a kit, uh, with syringes and filters and rubber gloves and in bottles and and a Fedex form with each sample that comes back to us. So it’s pretty seamless. It’s very easy for them and they record the data. And also with temperature, which is as we see, it’s rising rapidly around our, you know, world of water, but they simply just go to science on the fly dot org. And Ali Cunningham, who’s our director of the organization, you know, she will communicate with them, she will engage them, uh, understand where their water systems are, where they’re sampling and get them involved. And it’s a great community. It’s so fun. It feels good to give back. And so I think people want to do that. And how do you do that as a, as an angler who fishes and loves the sport, but how do you feel like you can actually give back? And I think this is just a great way to do it. 00:25:56 Speaker 4: Yeah. It is. 00:25:57 Dave: No, I think it’s it’s awesome because I think a lot of times we’ve talked a lot about conservation. Sometimes it feels like, you know, what do you do? You know, climate change, you got all these things and you feel like you’re kind of stuck, like we can’t make a difference. But this actually is a way somebody today could literally make a difference. They could take water samples. And the good thing about that is you’re getting the data to know like, okay, here’s what it is today. You know, and then you can create this database. Do you find that people are, you know, policy makers and stuff? When you go to Washington, D.C., is this the sort of data they need to make decisions? Is that why this is important? 00:26:28 John: I think no, I think the answer to the data is that, you know, it’s scientific data. It’s you know, you look at this stuff and it looks, you know, like Russian or something. Some of this, I mean, if you look at the data set and you can go into our website and drill down on any part of the country and you can see exactly what rivers we’re studying and then go, you know, you can just keep drilling down, down until you find a river system that you see on the map. Click on that and you can see all the published data on that water sampling. Uh, but the, I think the, the nuances of the data are complex, but I think what it shows to policy makers is that we give a damn and that this research is being done and they can see the trends and that they can see the passion behind it from a community that really cares. And as you know, Dave, the outdoor recreation economy is one of the largest sectors of our economy in the United States and growing. Being part of it, voting, uh, you know, any water sports, you know, floating boats, rafting, I mean, the, you know, the mountain biking. I mean, the recreation economy is so powerful. Most states and it’s the states that actually recognize that, that are doing well economically. I mean, they’re promoting healthy habitats. They’re promoting sport, they’re promoting responsibility. And policy makers know that it resonates with their constituents. So we bend their ear, so to speak, with how profound of an organization science on the fly is because it is purely science that it’s not just fluff. It’s not just, you know, we’re talking out of one side of our ear because we just love talking about water. I mean, this is science. This is data. It can’t lie. I mean, we’re just showing the data. So it’s powerful. So I think that’s how we’re winning the hearts and minds of policy makers at the moment. 00:28:14 Speaker 4: That makes sense. 00:28:15 Dave: Yeah, I’m seeing it now. It’s pretty cool. Yeah. All the data is right there. There’s an interactive map and then you can download the data and it takes you right into a spreadsheet. You can look at the data from all the data points. 00:28:25 John: Exactly. 00:28:25 Dave: Pretty cool. That’s amazing. So you know, basically you’ve gone in from running Fish pond to now. Is this what takes your time? You’re in Mexico, right? What part of Mexico are you in? 00:28:35 John: Yeah. So I live, you know, living on a ranch in Colorado. You know, I live about twenty five miles from the nearest town was where my place is. And it’s a working ranch. It’s just it’s got beautiful water. It’s just amazing place. But in the winter time, it’s a little bit desolate and it’s a little bit removed. So, you know, I have my home here on the coast and in Manzanillo, Mexico, just north of Manzanillo, uh, on the water. And it’s just a place that just feels, you know, I love speaking a different language. I love just kind of removing myself from the dreads of winter, right? I think it’s a little bit. I mean, where I am, it’s just like, okay. I mean, the birds, the birds leave and, you know, all of a sudden it’s just pretty quiet on the ranch. But, um, but I love being down here and it’s my home now. Uh, right now for probably six months, a year going forward. 00:29:25 Dave: That’s cool. Yeah. I feel like the older, the older we get, you know, the more the, the summer, the warmer weather looks good in the winter. You know, I feel like, you know, so it makes total sense. So good. So you’re kind of splitting your time six months down there. Six months in Colorado. What else is going on with you now? So you’ve got, um, it sounds like you’re still with Fish Pond a little bit helping them out. Are you? What’s the transition once you kind of leave that fully? 00:29:46 John: The transition now is that, you know, I mean, from a creative level, I mean, my, my focus now is mostly painting. So I’ve kind of switched my design level to oil painting. And, um, that’s kind of my, my passion. I’m painting lots of trout, uh, which are on my website, my photography website lookup photo dot com. But you can see a lot of my, I’m a young painter, I painted hundreds of paintings, but I’m still kind of still searching for my exact style. But there’s a thread there that is definitely species based and, uh, Western based, you know, check it out sometime when you get a chance. But anyhow, but that’s fun. So that’s kind of my, my focus right now from a creative perspective, but I haven’t been in the industry, especially, you know, with your, your podcast, which is, you know, really the best podcast that exists in the marketplace. And so, so amazingly thorough with the amount of people and the perspective I always enjoyed. I think, you know, there’s a common thread through people who, like yourself are doing this because of your own particular passion. And all of our collective passions together are important because the leaders of industry or the people who have the knowledge, who are just so deep and invisible in the social media world with their angling and their pursuits. It helps bring us together, and it also makes us stronger from our ability to build impact conservation. So I love things like this because what we’re doing is talking to our brothers and sisters that they love what we do, right? I mean, and we’re stronger together than just trying to, you know, hack that on our on our own. And that’s why I just appreciate so much in hearing and listening in different episodes that you’ve recorded with amazing people. So inspiration to me and you’re allowing that to happen by creating your, your platform. And, you know, with AI now, I mean, the world is changing. And I think the fact that we’re, I’m in Mexico, you’re where you are and we’re having this great conversation and you’re able to put this out there in the world. It’s, it’s, it’s phenomenal. 00:31:52 Dave: It is cool. Yeah. I’ve always, I’ve always since, I mean, you know, like a lot of, uh, you know, people that are successful, you stick with something that you like, you love, and you know, you keep doubling down. And we’ve been doing this a while now, you know, haven’t missed a week in many years, you know, and I feel like it’s great. I think that we do have, you know, some brands, you know, people out there that are interested. I talked to a lot of them too that are newer. You know, maybe they’re just getting started this year or they’re, you know, they’re kind of getting into it. What would be your, what would you tell them? It’s a new brand getting into fly fishing right now and they’re kind of like, okay, you know, maybe they’re just getting started. What would be your advice to that person? 00:32:28 John: I think, again, you have to look at how can you disrupt what is being done right now. In other words, how can you take Fish pond and turn it on on its back? I think you have to create something new. You just can’t say another, you know, another product that that just has this. It just looks a little bit different, but it’s the same thing. 00:32:44 Dave: Yeah. Another waterproof bag. Another waterproof bag. That’s the same thing. 00:32:48 John: Yeah. The industry is small enough that it’s getting harder and harder to carve into the space because dealers only have so much capacity They can only carry so many brands, right? 00:33:00 Dave: Yeah, there’s so many brands. Like you mentioned, Sims is a good one. Like even Sims has similar even colors a little bit to fishpond, right? It’s different, but they have like a lot of the same products, right? There’s a lot of overlap. And for all out there, it seems like. 00:33:13 John: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, and there’s only, you know, again. So you take competing brands and they see something that’s doing well, like on the fishpond side. And so they got to try to get a piece of that as well. So they come up with another chest pack or they come up with another product. And I think the key is, is that and no matter what somebody does is tries trying to copy you, they’re going to try to do it in their own way. But the key is, is that you have to do it to make it look different, feel different. And but consumers are buying more than just product. So a new brand that’s coming into the industry, you have to have some soul. You have to have something that will really deeply connect with new buyers, not just from a design perspective or product perspective on the shelf, but that the brand means something. And so I think it has to have, I look at people who, you know, sell sunglasses or Toms shoes or something that really you get out there and you get back a pair. If you’re doing good for the world, people are more aligned. Just I’m going to give that brand a chance. And like for Kristen, we started out being the first, you know, well, we were the first B Corp. I don’t know what a B Corp is. But yeah, so we were the first B Corp in the, in, in our industry in the fly fishing industry. Oh wow. You know well before Patagonia anybody. And so you know, we made that commitment. So that kind of set us apart because you have to earn B and B Corp. Yeah. There’s a lot of standards that are going into being certified as a B Corp. We had to meet those standards and we met those standards because we made a commitment to using one hundred percent recycled materials. 00:34:52 Dave: Is that what B be if you had to describe B Corp. Just high level of what it is. 00:34:56 John: B Corp is basically it’s a certification of corporate responsibility and the way you treat your employees, the way you create your product, the way you treat your factory employees, the way you have, you dedicate yourself towards sustainability. And there’s measures that really you look into really how truthful you are to those standards and your checks and balances. So there’s no greenwashing. And so I think it’s a great mark because if you commit to it, you know, you really made that as part of a focus of your brand and your story. Um, you know, we were the first company or first actually pretty much anywhere, any industry to use recycled fishing net, uh, that was pulled from the ocean environments, uh, with whom our South Korean factory that spun that recycled material into nylon yarn, and we use it for our products. And, you know, unlike big industries like Nike, which now uses some recycled nylon fishing net, they have much bigger scale. But we were able to do it and, and get people to notice that we’re doing it. We use recycled carpet in some of our products and mostly because we use because it’s nylon fishing nets, nylon. Otherwise you’d use recycled water bottles, which is a polyester. It’s not as strong of a material as nylon. So anyhow, so we did things like that, Dave. And so, you know, and we’re never perfect. And we, we, we try as hard as we can with our small little industry to, to make that impact. But I think hopefully we’ve inspired others to do the same. And I think that’s, that’s where our biggest impact comes from is not so much from a consumer buying the amount of material that we actually make that’s recycled. It’s inspiring other brands to do the same thing. So collectively, you know, there’s a larger impact, right? 00:36:48 Dave: That’s amazing. Yeah, I think that is a, that’s a cool legacy to have, right? To leave and know that your brand is inspiring other brands to know they can do it. That’s really cool. Well, we mentioned some gear. Let’s hear about back to the gear. Are you pretty well in touch with everything that is still going on there or their products coming out now that you’re not fully on top of? 00:37:07 John: I’m aware of everything. I mean, the, the fishpond brand, I mean, they’re setting their new course, their own course. I think following the legacy and the ethos of what we’ve already started, you know, there, there hasn’t been a lot of new products since I moved on. And what’s in the works? Uh, I’m not privy to, but I think a lot of the product that before I left was in the works and design stages. So that’s coming out. Uh, you’re seeing that, but I give kudos. These guys are going to do a great job. They’re going to they’re going to move on. They’re going to create amazing, great product. Fishbone will continue to thrive, uh, from a design aesthetic perspective, uh, hopefully from a conservation perspective and it’s happening And, you know, and it’s just, it’s fun and, you know. So there’s very capable people at the helm of Fishbone right now. Two equal partners that were in the business who bought my share. So we didn’t sell it to a big corporate entity. It’s still a family run, family owned business. So that pulse and young guys. Um, so there’s this energy and pulse, uh, which these guys the very best and they will do an amazing job. 00:38:11 Speaker 3: That’s awesome. 00:38:12 Dave: Well, how did it work where you were able to sell? You know, because you hear these stories out there, you know, some company sells to a, you know, a big whatever corporation. You know, how were you able to do what you did? You know, is that something where you just have to take a hit on the, you know, monetarily or, you know, like, was that easy to do as opposed to taking maybe more money, I’m guessing. 00:38:33 John: Yeah. I think if you, if you sell it to a big corporation, you know, or a private equity firm or somebody who’s going to run it, uh, from a financial perspective, uh, which we’ve seen with other brands in the industry, it can quickly go downhill because they just don’t know the pulse of of what the brand is all about. They they’re looking at it from a dollars and cents perspective rather than from a social perspective. But I think, you know, for me, it was just, you know, I think it’s important in life and I’ve done it like, you know, with photography and case logic and fishbone and, and I think after twenty five years, it was just time to reinvent. So I’ve got things in the works from a design perspective that will make a difference down the road. But I, right now, I, what I wanted to do is to make sure that the brand stayed true to itself. And it was sold to a group of people, which happened to be my equal partners because and here’s the, here’s the one thing. I started a fishpond with a great friend, Dave Thompson, who lives in Overland Park, Kansas. He and I ran fishpond for thirteen years, built the brand, built the the brand legacy, the the whole design guidelines. I mean, the fishpond product that exists today is because of what we did for this first thirteen years, and then he was a little bit older than I, he decided to move on. So I brought in a family in Denver who took over his shares. And they’re young guys. And so they in the last, you know, basically, you know, twelve years, these guys have worked alongside me, uh, for the whole time. And so they know the business. They just didn’t come in from the outside and all of a sudden swoop in and take it over. So the brand now is in great hands with the guys who, the family who bought my shares. So it was the perfect scenario. Now, if we sold the brand to an equity group, one hundred percent of the brand, we could have probably received multiples of what the valuation was. I sold to these guys, but to me, it was important to I mean, what do you need in life? I feel like very well taken care of. And I think and I know that the baby that I started and founded is anchored with the right people that will survive and endure and maybe become better than I ever envisioned. 00:40:45 Speaker 5: Let’s take a break and check in with Jackson Hole Fly Company right now. The right gear can turn a good day on the water into an unforgettable one. Jackson Hole Flight Company’s combo kits are built to match the rhythm of the river, giving you everything you need in one simple package. Each kit pairs a perfectly matched rod and reel with essential accessories, ready to fish right out of the box. From the beginner friendly Crystal Creek to the high performance Flat Creek, there’s a setup for every angler. And don’t forget about their packs and slings. I’ve been loving my Jackson Hole sling pack for a number of years now. The perfect size to fit all your gear, but not too heavy and not too big to drag you down. Check out their slings and rods and much more at Jackson Hole, Mycompany.com, and you can support this podcast by checking in with Jackson Hole Flight Company today. 00:41:39 Dave: Products wise, so there’s, you know, a lot of products out there. How would you describe the. The categories you’ve got the bags, you know, of the current line that you know. And you have some other things. You got nets. What do you think are the main categories of products for fishpond? 00:41:52 John: Well, I think, you know, obviously our soft goods are are the core of our, uh, you know. Vest, chest packs, you know, things like that. Those are the core, the carry systems. Uh, which was kind of, you know, came from the case logic world. I mean, we basically created. Carry storage. Um, and that’s kind of, you know, organized carry storage. But I think from a software perspective, obviously our tools and accessories are a group of guys from Salt Lake City called me and, uh, they had won best of show at one of the fly fishing retailer events, and they had created a fly box called Taki. And Taki was very innovative, had very interesting, uh, urethane, uh, die cut, fly storage in boxes. And they were just was really. They were just elegant and. But yet they were kind of having a hard time finding penetration in the marketplace, trying to get the dealer, trying to get reps, trying to penetrate the market. So they called to say, hey, Johnny, will you, uh, you know, can we collaborate and do some shared, you know, marketing together or whatever? Can we help? Can you help us? And it kind of morphed quickly into say, hey, you know, why don’t we just buy you a taxi? Uh, and these guys were basically scientists. They study sperm, which is the funniest. 00:43:09 Speaker 3: Thing. 00:43:09 Dave: Right? I mean, that’s tacky. That’s what tacky does or did. 00:43:12 John: Yeah. And so these guys were, you know, scientists, they’re trying to run this business on the side. And, you know, they’re, they’re doing all this stuff. It was so funny. So I said, hey, why don’t we just buy you and we’ll give you guys a commission on sales. And so, and which has been an amazing thing for them because we’ve taken tacky to be, you know, in my perspective, the most respected play storage product in the market. And so we’ve innovated the boxes, the types, sizes, the styles, the innovation that we did from a, from a molding perspective, it’s just been phenomenal. 00:43:46 Speaker 3: And on. 00:43:46 Dave: The techie. So maybe describe that. What is that? How is that fly box different than or at the time? How is that different than other things? What does it do differently or how does it disrupt? 00:43:55 John: Before techie came around, you know, fly storage was mostly in foam and foam with your hooks. It tears apart, you know, you, but you go in and out with a few streamers. You go in and out with flies, you know, for a season and your box is all torn up. So they had developed a technology with this kind of sticky, rubbery urethane with die cut slits that just wouldn’t rip. I mean, there was a place, there was a there was a place for the shank of that hook. And they were just elegant. They just were beautiful. Look and feel. Yeah, yeah. And so we just ran with that. They became our, uh, confidants. They helped us, uh, from a technology perspective, we worked with, um, their supplier in Asia who had the molds. And we just expanded upon that market. We we took that and we just moved it in different sizes and categories and, uh, all sorts of stuff. And now we’re making little fly pucks and all sorts of fun stuff like that. 00:44:51 Dave: Yeah. The fly pucks. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you’ve got the lineup. Yeah. We’ve talked about, you know, a number of things here. If you were to be, you know, in Fish Pond, say for the next ten years and still designing new products, what would be what would be a category, a big one you might go into? You know, we hear a lot of almost jokes about some of the new waiter companies and stuff, but like, what are your thoughts? Is there something big that you think you could maybe do a good job at? 00:45:14 John: I think, which I don’t think it really aligns with what my, uh, with the current ownership of Fish Pond is right now, but I, I would move into to apparel. I think that like our accessories that we wear, I think there’s a lot of me too product in the marketplace from apparel, from the outdoor industry, a lot of things kind of blend in. They start looking like each other, and I think that’s what really excites me. I mean, it’s a tough market because again, flight dealers, their shells are loaded with different shirts and different fleece jackets and whatever. But I think, you know, one thing we haven’t done in Fish Pond was to get into that market. And I think waders scare me. I mean, I don’t think I’d ever want to get into the water market, but but from a technical perspective and lifestyle clothing, I mean, the technical market is one thing. And I think we would do, you know, that we would serve that market really well from a design perspective. But what excites me more is from a lifestyle perspective. I mean, we often want to wear or align ourselves with our sport, but not fishing. When you go out or when you’re traveling in the airport, whatever, you still. 00:46:19 Speaker 3: That’s true. 00:46:19 John: It kind of feels like, hey, this is my sport. I don’t want to wear a ski jacket if I’m not a skier, in other words, or I don’t want to really feel like I’m, you know, a Mount Everest climber if I’m not. 00:46:28 Speaker 3: Really. 00:46:29 John: You know. So I would take it to that level and really create a product that elevates our identity to our sport and also create that product to make a difference from a sustainability perspective. In other words, with the purchase of this product, you align yourself with these particular goals that we’re going to give back to you. And I think that’s kind of what I would do, you know. Moving forward, I think, you know, we’ve got a lot of technical product or Fishbone has a lot of technical product right now. But personally, that’s what I would do. But they also say stick with what you do, right? 00:47:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:47:04 Dave: Stick with what you do well. Right. 00:47:06 John: Yeah. I mean, y you’re moving to these other areas and we’re never going to be an AI company, right? We’re never going to be, you know, those things. So you just have to say, okay, the fly fishing industry is small. It’s, you know, it’s somewhat bifurcated, but you know, own what you have, know who your customers are and basically have fun with it. And I think that’s the key is that a business just needs if you’re not having fun, why are you doing it? 00:47:29 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:47:29 Dave: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Um, and the bags are interesting too, because, you know, you talk waiters, you know, you’ve got some life of the product and it eventually might start leaking when you look at waterproof bags or maybe just, you know, that’s a good one because it’s supposed to be a hundred percent waterproof. How long do you expect to get out of this gear? Like somebody buys a bag? How I guess depends on how much you use it and stuff. But what are your thoughts there? 00:47:51 John: Well, we have a lifetime guarantee at this point. So in other words, you know, we really back the product that we make. I think that’s another thing that’s really separated us from a lot of competitors. In other words, we and our product is not the least expensive product out there, but it’s more expensive because of what we put into it. Uh, the quality of the fabric, the quality of the laminations on the waterproof coatings, you know, zippers that we use. Um, I think that, you know, ubiquitously people would tell you that, I mean, like all product, if you just use it day in and day out, day in, day out, if there’s a lifespan, I mean, it can wear out like anything and most people respect that. But people, you know, we had somebody who found a one of our gear bags in the bottom of the Bighorn River. That must have been underwater for a couple or two or three years. And, um, there was a wall in it or something. So the bag was returned to the owner and we got this bag back. I mean, it was filled with dirt. I mean, it was just literally it was just shredded. Yeah. And, and it was sent back to us. And so. Okay. And we, we just didn’t question. I said, okay, that’s kind of funny, but here, here it goes. Let’s send it back. 00:49:02 Dave: Really nice. 00:49:03 John: But, but durability is key. And I think as I mentioned earlier, the literally the, you know, your life can depend on this gear sometimes. And the waterproof gear is just, it’s just a whole different level of execution. 00:49:16 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:49:16 Dave: What is the hardest thing about the waterproof gear? Because you hear these things about waterproof, you know, I know just experience wise, sometimes you’ll get a bag and the zipper is hard to open or sometimes, Um, you know, it just doesn’t fit quite. Or maybe it doesn’t have as much, um, organizational as you want. It’s just some big open bag. Like what, what’s the toughest thing about waterproof bags? 00:49:34 Speaker 3: Making them. 00:49:34 John: Well, I think the fail point is a zipper. And so as a brand, you know, you don’t manufacture the zipper. There’s only a couple zipper companies in the world, you know? True zip, which is the zipper that we use right now is the self-healing zipper has to be lubricated. And we use a couple of different zippers depending upon the bag. One from Germany. But the fail point is the zipper. So they have to be maintained. They have to be lubricated. I mean, it’s like anything. It’s like you can’t buy a car and never change the oil. So and that’s what people have to understand, that you have to take care of the zippers on these waterproof bags and salt water, rinse them off and then lubricate them. But you know, that’s the potential fail point. But for the most part, you know, they work as, as they’re supposed to be, you know, with a lot of pressure. Some of these true two zips. They can. The zipper can split open. So an air travel and say, hey, you know, put. 00:50:28 Speaker 3: A couple. 00:50:28 John: Cam straps around your bag. Uh, for airline travel because, you know, people drop these things from forty feet and, but, you know, the zipper heals itself. You can, you know, realign, zip it back up. So when you’re out in the field, you’ve got a zipper. But I think the mark that sets us apart on waterproof gear was when I started designing these products. Well, first of all, it was beautiful. You know, climbing rope handles. I mean, they just they just have an aesthetic that’s beautiful from a color perspective and where you can put accessories, but also from a shape like our backpack, you know, they’re not square boxes, you know, some of the brands because they’re molded. You have to use these molds, which, you know, and then once they start having shape, it becomes very difficult to, to mold this, uh, there’s no sewing. So it’s just, it’s heat welded each one of these seams on a bag. So once you start giving it shape and changing the form, it becomes more difficult. But we’ve done that. And so we’ve really, really, you know, changed the, the angles and, and how it feels and fits on your back. So that separates us. Yeah. 00:51:33 Dave: That’s awesome. When on the internal side of bags is there because you were known for right with case logic organizing things, is that a challenge? I’m not sure what your the new bags look like, but can you put more pocket dividers? Is that more challenging than just a regular non-waterproof bag? 00:51:48 John: Well, unlike bags that you. So you know, the organization is sewn into the bag, you know, I mean, these things are sewn upside inside out. So, you know, all the organization, the dividers, the pockets, the interior, interior pockets, etc. they’re sewn in on waterproof bags. You know, it becomes a vacuous shell. So because you can’t really show things on the inside. So we do weld some pockets on the inside of our bags, but for the most part, you know, on our backpacks and things like that, we create Interior organization inserts that go into the bags. For example, if you want to, you know, use your backpack for photo storage. We have a padded interior component that slides into your, you know, into your sling pack or into your, into the backpack that is protective and, and has dividing compartments for fly boxes that are not flopping all over the place. 00:52:45 Dave: That’s like the, uh, the thunderhead, like I’m seeing the thunderhead lumber. There’s some other inserts, Thunderhead sling inserts. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. That makes sense. Cool. This is this is really good. Well, I think, um, you know, again, we try to do our best to get the background. Anything we missed on on fishpond. I know we’re not hitting everything, but anything you want to just highlight, you know, on on the journey and kind of, you know how it was for you. 00:53:07 John: I think we’ve had a lot of things there. I mean, I think, you know, fishpond is it’s kind of a living entity, so to speak. I, I, I look at the brand that started twenty five years ago on On the deck of my house, with a vision of disrupting an industry, but creating a product that had a purpose functionally. That at the time I didn’t really know, but really morphed into something that was more livable from what it represents from a conservation perspective. So I’m living that now with science on the fly. I’m living that now. He’s still able to talk to people like yourselves. You know, so many of the people that you’ve interviewed in your podcasts are, uh, are heroes of mine are our inspiration to me. And frankly, I’m still a hack when it comes to most fishing around the world. 00:53:52 Dave: I mean, right? 00:53:53 John: I mean, there’s people that most people can out fish me, Dave. I mean, you. 00:53:56 Dave: Know, me too. 00:53:57 John: I just, you know, and I love learning from them. And I love the exploration of where Fish Pond can take me. 00:54:02 Dave: Are you still getting out there? Are you still, um, are you traveling or you got still destinations on your on your list to hit? 00:54:09 John: Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, again, I’m pretty much I’m a truck guy for the most part, but I love fishing the West and I take my van, I drive. I just love fishing the high country. I love going up and hiking up to high mountain lakes and catching cutthroats. And, you know, that’s pretty much my passion. You know, I get around the world and I fish the amazing places I go with great friends. And, you know, that’s what inspires me and the guys I work with at either goodwill or the Nature Conservancy, the leaders of those two organizations. Carlos Fernandez and Max Holmes are truly my inspiration right now. Uh, they lead these conservation organizations in ways that give me access to amazing places. They’re my best friends. Um, both those leaders. And so we, we explore together and at the same time, we do good for the world. At least we try to. And we don’t have all the answers for sure. But I’m just really proud and happy to be a part of a community in the fly fishing world with all, many of the people you’ve interviewed that we’ve all grown up together. I saw one of your podcasts on Mark Vaile from. Oh, yeah. 00:55:13 Dave: Yeah. You know Mark. 00:55:14 John: Yeah. So I mean, there’s just people. I mean, back from the days when I, you know, showed Lefty Gray my, one of my first products that they kind of shrug it off at the time. 00:55:22 Dave: Did he? 00:55:23 John: Yeah. 00:55:24 Dave: Do you remember what the product was that you showed him? 00:55:26 John: Yeah, it was a I made a titanium clipper. I mean, I was buying titanium tubing from Boeing up in Seattle and anything below six feet, they would scrap the titanium. They were just like, you know, half inch tubes, three eighths inch tubes. And I was split it down the middle. Machine it. Make these blades for it. And they were just the most beautiful. And they still are one of the most beautiful designs ever made a fish pond. But these titanium clippers and but I, you know, I showed them to lefty and, you know, I was with our rep Raz Reid from, from the southeast in Florida, another great friend. And, uh, but lefty looked at it and kind of like, you know, we were really nothing at the time as a brand. And, you know, he was kind of the old school guy. He showed that smoking pipe with old khaki vest, you know, like, what’s this thing all about? What are you. What are you doing there, boy? So it’s, uh, it’s pretty fun. 00:56:18 Dave: It’s pretty awesome. The history is I, I love the history because, and that’s what I love about this because we’re connecting now finally fishpond the history and, and to these other, you know, you mentioned it, you know, lefty Lee Wolff is interesting, right? He’s, he’s known as the guy that invented the vest. 00:56:32 John: Oh, totally. 00:56:33 Dave: You know what I mean? So it’s really interesting to hear. And now we’re going back to Fish Newfoundland and the same, uh, basically lodge where Lee Wolff first was fishing for Atlantic salmon. So I love the history. I feel like you’ve got a quarter of a century, right? With one brand. So do you feel like you’ve left your mark on this thing on fly fishing? 00:56:52 John: Yeah, I do, I think we’ve I think Fish Pond as a brand by itself has shifted the paradigm from how people look at design in the industry as a whole. I think we really pushed the envelope, uh, early on for other brands to be inspired by and to feel like they’ve got to step up their game, so to speak. So I feel really proud about that. I don’t want to pat my back on that, but I think we really, you know, really do that. And I think fishpond today, you know, based on what’s happening with corporate mergers and things like that, you know, it may be one of the most relevant brands in the world, which we’ve earned over twenty five years. So I feel really proud about that. But, you know, I’m humbled by, you know, who knows how things happen. You, you just have a vision and you know it. There it is, right? 00:57:37 Dave: There’s, there’s probably some luck along the way for everybody, right? Yeah. You know, from my perspective on the kind of on the outside, although I’m kind of in the industry here, but yeah, I mean, I feel like fishermen first time talking to you. I mean, I always saw, you know, again, the last twenty five years is like this brand that kind of I didn’t know almost came out of nowhere, you know, but you were but a leader, right? And you’re up there with everybody and I didn’t know the story. So it’s really interesting. I love that we’ve connected now that you’ve got this big conservation, you know, ethic and all this stuff. So yeah, this is pretty, pretty exciting. 00:58:08 John: And maybe someday we have a conversation about science on the fly. I mean, I think it would be an interesting podcast because that alone is, is something that’s a real game changer. And, and anglers are interested in it because they just, it resonates with their, you know, their own backyards, so to speak. 00:58:22 Dave: Yeah. I think we will definitely, I think science on the fly would be great to, uh, chat more on that. So until then, uh, Johnny, we’ll leave it there and we’ll send everybody out to, uh, what’s the best website again, remind us if people want to take a look at your photos and stuff. 00:58:35 John: Uh, lucac photo l e c o q photo p h o t o dot com. It has, you know, many, many portfolios from my photography career, but it also has my, my recent paintings and, you know, I mean, you know, they’re trout and things like that. So can you check that out? But that’s just kind of my, my newfound passion and, uh, but, uh, yeah, and obviously keep, keep abreast with Fishbone, but, uh, just know that I’m just, I’m humbled and I really appreciative of your time and thank you for, uh, the one thing I have realized over the years is that, you know, we never do anything on our own, right? Right. We all have influences from everybody, and there’s always somebody who who gives us a mark and gives us an inspiration, who gives us an idea and, and we do it together. So collaboration is the key in life. And I think we all have to recognize that in any of these new brands, there’s new people entering the sport of fly fishing. Uh, you know, reach out to people like myself and, and get perspectives and be a part of a community and, and realize that all dreams are possible. And I truly believe that. 00:59:35 Dave: Love it. All right, Jonny, we’ll leave it there until the next one. Thanks again for all your time and we’ll talk to you soon. 00:59:41 John: Thank you Dave. 00:59:43 Dave: Hope you enjoyed that one with Jonny. That was a great episode. Really excited to have him on the podcast. Finally, after years of, uh, of thinking about it, this is a great one. I hope you enjoyed it. I want to give a shout out if you want to check in with science on the fly or go to Coco dot com, you can check in some of the other good stuff that Jonny has going. Also, I want to give a shout out. We do have a big trip event and giveaway going on right now, the dry fly school. We have it going right now. If you want to check in with me, Dave at fly dot com. I’ll let you know what we have open for availability. We always have the giveaway going right now. Wet fly giveaway if you want to enter for a chance to win a dry fly school spot to the Missouri River, the Big Mo. We’re heading there this year and it’s going to be exciting. I hope we can join you on the water and that’s all I have for you today. I appreciate you for stopping all the way till the end. Hope you have a fabulous afternoon, evening or morning wherever you are in the world, and appreciate you for listening till the very end here. Talk to you soon. 01:00:41 Speaker 6: Thanks for listening to the Wet Fly Swing Fly Fishing show. For notes and links from this episode visit wet Fly dot com.