846 | Inside Patagonia’s Swiftcurrent Waders with Kate Hadeka & Nick Blixt

00:00:00 Dave: Today, we’re diving deep into the design, philosophy and future of one of the most essential tools in fly fishing your waders. Today’s guests are going to share how Patagonia is removing forever chemicals from their materials, including their waders. We’re going to find out how they’re designing repairable panels and building entire community programs around gear repair and reuse. And this episode is going to show you how Patagonia continues to set the bar for performance and responsibility. By the end of this episode, you’re going to learn a few of the top tips on wader care. Y quality and longevity are key to conservation, and how the next generation of gear, including their new boots, is built on lessons from the river itself. This is the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species. We all love. Our guest today, Nick Blixt and Kate Haddock from Patagonia are going to take us behind the scenes of the Swift Current waiter, a piece of gear that represents decades of testing, innovation and relentless drive to do less harm to our home planet. Whether you fish the Deschutes, the Skeena, or your home creek or river, by the end of this episode, you’re going to know what makes these waders different, what’s next for Patagonia’s fish program, and how a culture of listening from threads online to customers and ambassadors is what keep them evolving, creating amazing outdoor gear and waders. Okay, let’s jump into it. Here we go. This is going to be a big one. Here we go. Nick Blixt and Kate Haddock from Patagonia. How are you both doing? 00:01:36 Kate: Good. Thanks for having us. 00:01:38 Dave: Yeah, yeah, this is exciting. I, um, you know, we’ve been talking. Well, it’s been years now. We’ve been talking about Patagonia, but especially of late, we’ve been chatting with people because we’ve kind of been helping to get the word out on the new waders you have going. And I think we’re going to hear about the story there, because I know there’s a lot of background to get to where we are. I’ve been wearing them a lot and they’ve been awesome. So we’re going to shed light on that for people. But before we jump into it, maybe we can start with a little of your background. How did you how did both of you come to work for one of the greatest companies in the world? Kate, why don’t you start? We’ll start with you and then we’ll go to Nick. 00:02:09 Kate: Yeah. Um, so I’m the business unit director of fish, and, um, you know, I oversee the vision and the category strategy for our brands. I have a pretty deep background in the fish and outdoor space. Um, my career has actually always revolved around product, um, and the business side of things. Um, I’ve worked for Orvis in the past. Um, yeah. So I’ve been in it for a long time. But I’m just really drawn to the interconnectedness, the challenges that brings an idea to life. 00:02:40 Dave: Nice. How about you, Nick? 00:02:41 Nick: Yeah. Um, so I am the I do marketing for, um, the fish category here on Kate’s team at Patagonia, amongst a couple other things. Um, I’ve been at Patagonia for about five years now. I now. I joined just a couple of weeks before the pandemic shut everything down. But my background is, you know, kind of soon after college, I worked for about eight years in brand strategy and brand marketing at Hulu, doing streaming television, loved brand, um, but had this whole second life outside of that where I was a, I was a casting instructor and I was also a captain, and I did a kind of guided, uh, fly fishing charters, um, around Southern California offshore as kind of a second life outside Hulu. So Patagonia was always kind of a dream to kind of marry the professional background and my actual passion and really happy to be here. 00:03:35 Dave: Nice. Nice. Well, that’s a that’s a good start here. So I think today we’re going to talk about specifically the swift current waders, you know, and not just the waiters but just the process. And you know how Patagonia mixes that into from you know the ethos and really you know which is amazing. We’ve talked a lot about it about the mission to save our home planet. Right. Going back to Yvonne. And so I want to talk about that. But maybe just start there, talk about these waiters, somebody who hasn’t seen them before. What does that process look like to get to where we are today, where I’m out there beating them up and, you know, living in the waiters. How did we get to this point? 00:04:07 Kate: Yeah. Uh, it’s, um, waiters in particular take a long, long time to develop. Um, pretty much all of the products in our fish category take time. Years of work testing go into these products, but we’re also just always ideating and iterating on feedback from the community, problems that we can solve, how to make things better. And so the PFAS moment for us was actually a really important timeline, um, for us to work towards. And we took all that feedback over the last few years of our first gen Swift Current waiters, and we incorporated that into these new ones. Um, so you can see these, you know, little improvements along the way, some major improvements. And then hitting that PFAS goal for materials was pretty powerful moment for us. 00:04:54 Dave: Yeah. And describe that a little bit. What is that fast moment? What is FAS. 00:04:59 Kate: So starting in twenty twenty five, our product line. So all of Patagonia products no longer contains any intentionally applied FAS. Um, the team, broader team, all of Patagonia began this research and development in the two thousand just to find a cleaner. D.W. so we tested more than thirty unique chemistries across our highest volume technical fabrics, and then really narrowed it down to what would be the best materials and DWR components to go with. Um, and that all started in twenty fifteen. So FAS is a polyfluorinated chemicals, you know, it helps repel everything from waters, uh, water and stains. Um, and it’s pretty much everywhere. Um, so it’s very broadly used in the outdoor industry. Um, but is much further than the outdoor industry as well. 00:05:52 Dave: Right. And this is kind of the obviously these are Gore-Tex. So is that typically where you see it found a lot in waterproof materials. 00:06:00 Nick: So they’re not actually Gore-Tex there. I mean Kate can kind of talk about the fabric. There is Gore-Tex in some of our competitors. But waders but ours are not. 00:06:08 Kate: Yeah, ours are not. 00:06:09 Dave: And that’s why bad on the I think I tend to I use that name right. The Gore-Tex that fabric as kind of a generic. But yeah, it’s not. There’s actually still a company that uses Gore, the Gore-Tex versus say what you use at Patagonia, which is totally different. So yeah, maybe you can explain, uh, PFAS, you know, kind of what it is, how they’re used in the waders, the swift current waders, and how that’s different than maybe some other products around, um, you know, the industry. 00:06:33 Kate: Yeah. So PFAS are strong heat stable and water and oil repellents. Um, but they’re toxic. So we’ve stopped using them. Um, they’re found almost everywhere. So beyond waterproof water resistant gear, they’re in nonstick cookware. there in stain resistant carpeting. Food packaging. Everything. Paint. You know, cosmetics, um, even your smartphone. So. And they were all commercialized in nineteen thirties. So this has been a long time coming. Um, and our team again, it took far beyond just the waiter timeline to build these. You know, we worked on our waiter materials for probably over two years. But in addition to that, we spent ten years working to get rid of intentionally added PFAS from our entire company. 00:07:21 Dave: Wow. Maybe you can go back to with just thinking of Patagonia, the the ethos of what Patagonia does, because I know I’ve heard this story before, from organic t shirts to when we had Yvon on, you know, I was talking to him and asked him questions that he was talking about the fleece I was wearing. It was Patagonia fleece, the R2, and he was talking about how the microfibers, you know, the amount of microfibers that go into the laundry and how Patagonia is working on these new dryers with Samsung to remove that. Right. So it feels like that’s Patagonia. Maybe describe the can you describe more on Patagonia with the overall ethos as a brand and how that fits into the waders? 00:07:54 Kate: Yeah, I’d say, you know we’re always do the least amount of harm is always been our philosophy at one time was even our mission statement. And whether it’s microfibers organic cotton, you know, all the different things that we’re working to do better, we’re also holding ourselves to the same quality standards that we always have. So our water repellency and PFAS is no different. The puncture testing is no different than what we set the standard for our waders. And same with organic cotton. You know, if we are not building quality product, it’s going to end up in the landfill regardless. And so that has been something that’s always top of mind for our product philosophy is do the least amount of harm and honestly build the best quality product that you can so it stays out in the industry forever. 00:08:43 Nick: Especially as you started talking about Ideating like, how are we going to talk about these waiters? When they came out to the world, it was like, you know, it was really important that they were responsible, but they still had to be the best performing waiters. You know, people are investing in these, and we wanted to speak about these waiters in a way that really demonstrated that, yes, they were responsible, but they’re also incredibly innovative and they’re the best performing ones in the market. 00:09:08 Kate: Yeah, I think a big thing with our waiters in particular is and all of our product, honestly, is again, always looking towards making our products even more environmentally friendly. But we’re also always, always focused on leading in functionality and performance. And a lot of that comes directly out of our community. You know, I mean, we’re sitting here, we’ll read posts on Reddit. We’re sitting here looking through social media, talking to field testers, talking to our stores. Specialty shops are a huge source of where we gather Other insight, and that has always been the way that we’ve done things, especially in the fish community, um, making sure that we’re leading with problems that are communities facing and helping to solve them head on. So whether it’s making sure that your waiters sit tighter, um, on your the straps are sitting more form fitting to your body or the bottom of your booty is easier to get into on and off. So all the different things that make it even more user intuitive and easier to, um, function and get on the water. 00:10:13 Dave: So nice. Yeah. And I think something that keeps coming up. And again, waiters, you know, the thing with waiters, the challenge is, is that eventually all things wear out, right. They’re not going to last forever. And what I’ve heard and again I’ve been wearing the waiters this year and they’ve been great, haven’t had any problems or anything. But I’ve heard stories out there about the service, the high level of service that Patagonia has, these crazy stories about how somebody will have a beat up pair of waiters and, you know, they almost feel bad about bringing them in. And then you’ll go to Patagonia and you guys will say, like, hey, we’re taking care of you, and sometimes you’ll even get a voucher, you know, and these crazy. So like, talk about the service. I don’t know if Nick or Kate who wants to dig into this one, but I feel like this is a huge part of what I’m hearing just in the community that people think maybe this is one of the biggest things with Patagonia. 00:10:55 Nick: Yeah. I think, you know, one interesting thing to bring up there is that, yes, you can send your waders in and we will repair them and get you back on the water. But one really interesting component that I think is really unique to Patagonia is we do a lot of community activations as well, taking wader repair and other types of repair for apparel on the road. Um, and that really I think has been kind of our secret sauce, uh, from an activation standpoint recently. And people trust us because they know we’ll take care of their gear and we’ve got a facility to do that. But when we can actually bring that into the community and show folks how leaks are found, where we find them, how those repairs actually happen, and do it in real time. It’s a really powerful conversation to unlock. 00:11:43 Dave: Yeah, exactly. 00:11:44 Kate: The other thing to add to that is, um, we work extremely closely with our repair team. So essentially, you know, we start at the end of life to help build new products as well. So whether something was failing in the past or we see an opportunity to make something even more repairable, we’re always, you know, trying to build our products so that they are completely repairable. There’s pretty much nothing that we can’t fix on our waiters. And if we can’t fix it, we will, um, it will fall under ironclad guarantee. The other thing is that we have launched over the last few years, the River stewards program. So products that, um, you know, saw an end of life that we were actually able to repair later on in time, we’re able to sell those as used part of our worn wear program. And I think that we’re seeing some of our competitors also pick up that concept, which is awesome. So really happy to see the use component flowing into other parts of our industry. 00:12:44 Dave: Nice. Yeah, the river stewards and and I feel like for me that’s going to be like a badge of honor. You know, the longer I have these waiters, the same waiters, you know, they’re repaired. If I get them into a, you know, a barbed wire fence or something like that. But, you know, just having these over time, I feel like that’s kind of a cool thing. And knowing that you’re not putting another thing in the landfill. Right? I feel like. 00:13:03 Kate: Absolutely. 00:13:04 Dave: Is. I mean, you must. I mean, I’m sure probably on some of this, you know, just like anything I always say with this podcast, you’re probably going to have some people that the naysayers write some negative comments out there. I’ve heard a lot of positive stuff. But, you know, do you find it sounds like you’re listening to people and that’s part of your success, is that, you know, from your end? Is that part of the success of Patagonia is really listening to everybody, whether that’s positive or minus or negative on the, on, you know, reviews and things like that. 00:13:30 Nick: Yeah, I think so. I mean, Kate can speak to this even more, but I think just being able to see the you know, that repair isn’t just repair, but it’s also an opportunity to get insight into how product is performing and then to integrate that into design and innovation for the next cycle of product is extremely useful. 00:13:51 Kate: Yeah, I think, you know, we’re never going to stop learning. At least that’s my philosophy. And I think Nick has adopted that. So we’re never going to stop learning. You know we are always going to be listening and challenging ourselves, challenging the status quo, pushing the boundaries of what the industry is doing, whether it’s in, again, materials or how we’re constructing something, especially in an industry like fish, where it’s small and we’re always looking at each other, there’s a lot of opportunity for us to think outside the box here. 00:14:23 Dave: Perfect. Talk about a little bit on the design process of the waiters and then how that fit into, you know, just Patagonia and what you do. Can you walk us through a little bit of that background, how it went from the original idea concept to where we are now. 00:14:37 Kate: Um, yeah. Well, I will actually go back to I think it was Rio Gallegos beyond my time here when I, um, was actually just looking and watching Patagonia from a distance. Right. Uh, there was a waiter task force that was started, so I will not take the credit for that. But that led to a lot of really, really great work, um, that we were able to actually build the next generation of swift current waiters. And I came in to Patagonia, actually in the product development space. So I was building all the waiters at that time and helped launch the first generation of Swift Current waiters. Um, so the improvements there, a lot of it again, came from our waiters failing in the past and again, learning. So always questioning and asking ourselves how we can do something better, whether it’s through repair or failures that we’re seeing through returns. Um, and that was the beginning, really, of the entire process for swift current waiters. So we did the same exact thing for this next round, for the new round of waiters. We also know that there’s an opportunity to, you know, right now everyone tends to go heavier and heavier in their waiters. And we actually know we can get to a high performance waiter with similar puncture resistance and durability in a much lighter weight. So again, pushing the the boundaries of what we actually can do and what is going to be most comfortable for our community. 00:16:04 Dave: Nice. And maybe talk about that a little bit on those waiters. So you have a few different, I guess, models out there. Maybe describe some of that in a few of the key features that people are loving out there. 00:16:15 Nick: Yeah. So we have two products I’d say like two families of waiters. So we have the expedition weight, um, which is kind of built what we call for the most rugged conditions, I guess, is probably what I would call our official product positioning for it. and I’ll go into that. But then we also have our. Traverse family of waders and that is for kind of more mobility and versatility. So for men for the expedition we have both a kind of a zip front and a non zip front option for women’s. There’s a zip front and then for traverse we have a men’s zip front and a women’s non zip front. So kind of five unique styles of waders across the two genders. Um I think without you know going too too much into detail. If you just had to kind of look again back at that product positioning, those expedition waders are going to have, you know, one weight of material on the top and then a heavier one on the bottom. So it’s really going to help you with abrasion on the legs. You’re cutting through branches. Bramble brush. Um they’ll be bomb proof. Um and then if you look at the traverse, it’s going to have that kind of lighter weight material on the top and the bottom. So you’re going to be able to. It’s good for long hikes to the river. Good for moving around really easily. And then there’s a couple other features that you’ll find unique on the expedition, like knee pads for instance. And the type of shoulder attach the type of shoulder harness. 00:17:46 Kate: Yeah. And with the some things that float across both of them that were micro innovations really were just like examining the weight of our upper on the Swift Current expedition, you know, placing the heavyweight materials where you really need it, knowing that we’re not seeing failures ever, in certain parts of our waders. So lightning it up so it’s more comfortable, um, improving the fit and pattern work across the board, whether that’s just easier or better mobility or dawn and doff of the booties, making sure that that’s the appropriate pattern so that it’s more comfortable to, you know, pull on and off. Um. 00:18:28 Dave: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:18:29 Nick: One thing Kate alluded to earlier, just in that repatterning, is that these are actually more repair, like, these are easier to repair in some places as well as. 00:18:37 Kate: Yeah, we actually can repair entire panels of our waiters now, which in the past we couldn’t. So that was part of our repatterning efforts. We also have QR codes that are inside all of the waiters that link directly to how to fix your waiters streamside if. Yeah. And so our waiters come with repair kits as well. So that’s all part of, you know, this redesign making it as easy as possible to keep our gear out in the wild. 00:19:03 Dave: Wow. That’s cool. So yeah. Go ahead Nick. 00:19:05 Nick: What’s interesting too is I mean, people have long memories if they’ve had leaky waders. So. And if they’ve had waders, they felt like failed them. And so one just timing wise, what was really fortunate with these was like there was a lot of trust in the previous generation of swift currents, and those were out for a number of years. And it really takes a number of years for the community to really kind of buy into something. You know, they’ll listen to the manufacturer, but they’re really going to be listening to the kid in the fly shop and what he or she is wearing on their own, or the guide they’re going out with or their mentor. And so for that word of mouth to get around the community, I think there was a lot of trust in that previous generation of swift currents before the new ones came out. You really need that in order for these to be successful. Just as a foundation. 00:19:54 Dave: Yeah, I agree, I think that, yeah, the trust and the waiters is the ultimate thing because, you know, I’ve had all sorts of issues with different pieces of gear. You know everybody has but waiters, man, if they start leaking on you and you’re on a big trip, you know, it could be a, a winter steelhead trip and you’re up on the Skeena, you know, and you’re up there for two weeks and all of a sudden you start on day one, they start leaking and you’re like, oh man, this is not good, right? So I feel like it’s the ultimate piece of gear because you really have to have that trust. And like for me in pass, I mean, there were times where I’d bring two pairs of waders just because I was, like, worried on a big trip. But talk about the process where somebody has maybe an issue, maybe they hit some fence and cut it, or they just have some issue. What is the process when they get back, if they want to connect with Patagonia and take care of them? 00:20:38 Kate: So if they reach out to our customer service team, our team will take care of them right away. Whether it’s sending in for repairs, talking them through how to repair their own waders if it’s a rip. Obviously that needs to get repaired. Not necessarily just a pinhole. There’s also our retail stores that can handle all of it. Um, or if we’re doing a repair tour, it’s also an easy way to bring your product directly to us that we can fix on site or get repaired in Reno. 00:21:05 Dave: Okay. Perfect. 00:21:06 Nick: And we have a whole repair form on the website that folks can essentially just like a little portal they can fill out that’ll self direct them. Same way a lot of the hard goods manufacturers will filter folks through to get rods repaired. 00:21:18 Dave: Okay. Yeah. 00:21:18 Kate: Yeah. There’s nothing that we won’t try to repair. I will say that. So, um. And pretty much everything we can repair. We even have some new repairs. As I mentioned, the full panels, zippers, other things that we weren’t necessarily able to repair in the past that we can now, which is pretty awesome. So keeping our gear out of the landfill is always the most important thing to do. 00:21:40 Dave: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. We’ve been doing this little segment kind of on the podcast where I’ve been asking people kind of a gear talk and talking about the waiters in Patagonia, and it’s been interesting a number of times people have come up on that just randomly guess we’ve had and said, oh, I’ve asked them what their favorite piece of gear and is. A lot of times it’s been another piece of Patagonia gear, whether that’s the Nano puff or the R1 or R2 or some or the bags, you know. So again, we’re talking about the waiters here because that’s the focus. But there’s a number of these products I think, out there that do they kind of live in general. Is it all products have that same warranty through Patagonia, through fish? 00:22:15 Kate: Yep. Um, everything has an ironclad guarantee. so we can service and will service everything for our community. Um, and yeah, there’s no cost on it. 00:22:28 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there’s no cost. Yeah. 00:22:31 Kate: Um, no, this is great. It’s really wonderful. The, um, and waiters are absolutely the toughest products that we make in the entire company. Yeah, absolutely. If they fail on your trip, it’s ruined your trip. Yeah. Um, and then, uh, to your point, on packs and nano, you know, I think the new stealth packs that we launched this season, too, we’re super excited about the switch packs, knowing that there was an opportunity to challenge, you know, what we’ve always been doing over the last number of years in the industry and create something that worked for both the hip and a sling. So we have multiple configurations in three different silhouettes, which is pretty awesome. So we are super excited about those pieces as well this year. 00:23:12 Speaker 4: Wow. 00:23:12 Dave: Nice. These are the stealth. Are these like waterproof? I’m not totally familiar with these waterproof packs. 00:23:17 Kate: The stealth switchbacks. Do you want to speak to this? 00:23:19 Nick: Yeah, they’re water resistant. Um, water resistant packs. I think one of my favorite things about working here, even though I’m not even in a product capacity, is just seeing the way that also things are borrowed across the brand. You know, we make amazing fly fishing gear and we also make gear for other activities. And so you take something like Stealth Switch that was designed by a team of anglers and formed by a team of anglers. It’s a really core product. It’s meant for fly fishing specifically and has all the features for that. So you can I think we counted there’s like twelve different configurations. You can wear these packs in across the three packs. You have something that can be worn as like a chest pack, as a hip pack on a belt. It can be attached to the back of not only our our own backpacks, but competitors backpacks. And it can also be attached into the loops at the front of our waders. We have the pack that alluded to that can be converted between a hip and a sling pack. That’s the nine liter, um, which, you know, I’ve seen a lot of folks try to do a convertible hip sling in the past. I think this is the first one that actually hit the mark. It’s kind of that holy grail that no one had really cracked until now. So, um, but yeah. And I don’t know if I should speak to this, so Kate shut me up if I am, can’t. But like the fact that we what I was alluding to before with just working cross-functionally, it’s like those packs actually pulled in, um, some of the material from our black hole packs. You know, people have been trusting Black Hole for so long to be these bomber proof duffels and bags to get them, you know, across the world or anywhere. Um, and we realized, hey, we’ve already got this amazing abrasion resistant material that’s, you know, the material itself is waterproof. The seams are not. But essentially what you get from that is a pack that takes on far less water and has at the same time, like is very functional for anglers. 00:25:13 Speaker 4: Wow. 00:25:13 Kate: I would say one of the best things about, um, Patagonia is the fact that not only do we have a dedicated, very dedicated and broad team of fish specific people that work at the company and a business unit that’s directly, you know, we have a fish business unit. Um, but we also work with multiple different teams. So we have snow, we have surf, we have, um, you know, climb. And, you know, there’s so many different areas of our business that we actually pull inspiration from, whether it’s saltwater, uh, product. And we’re working with our surf team really closely or it’s different waterproof gear that we’re working with our alpine team on. So there’s a lot of different ways that we can pull inspiration into our product line, which is pretty powerful. 00:26:04 Dave: This is great. Yeah, I’m looking at the video online of the switchback. I’m definitely getting one of these because it’s pretty amazing. I mean, I’ve seen it now. I think that is a struggle for a lot of people, because I’m old enough to remember using the vest like as a kid, you know, younger and use that a lot. And I used to love the vest and now it’s all slings and it’s tough to get a good sling or some pack that, you know what I mean, isn’t annoying. And it sounds like you’ve done a lot of work to make this interchangeable, so it fits a bunch of different styles. 00:26:32 Speaker 4: Yep. Nice. 00:26:33 Kate: Yeah, we got some good packs that are out. We have even more that are coming and we’re super excited about that. I also would say, don’t think the vest is totally dead. I actually. 00:26:42 Speaker 4: Think it’s. 00:26:43 Kate: Going to be a resurgence of us. Yeah. And we got some pretty cool products that are in the pipe for that. 00:26:49 Speaker 4: Oh, that’s. 00:26:49 Dave: Great to hear. Yeah, I think the good to hear the vest isn’t dead yet, so not yet. Wait for some of that coming. Um, and maybe let’s hear about this. And maybe, Nick, this is your specialty on the marketing. You know, maybe high level whatever you want to cover. What does that look like for you when you think of these swift current waders? Is that an easy job to think like, hey, we’ve got to because I know marketing is a big struggle for a lot of brands out there. 00:27:10 Nick: Well, I think what’s important about it is just to start off is it’s not it’s not just a clean handoff from like, okay, products, job is done. Let’s hand it over to marketing and come up with a clever little slogan and let’s sling some waiters. Like, no, it’s we’re all kind of one team here. And so marketing standpoint, you know, Kate, myself and a lot of other folks had to look really deep into like, what is the story of these waiters? And I think one of my favorite anecdotes of the campaign was that it wasn’t just like, hey, there’s this one new silver bullet feature, and that’s the hero. It’s like the story of these was actually all these micro innovations. And they’re not just micro innovations from last generation of Swift Current, but they’re micro innovations that have been coming even before we started making waiters. It’s really like a look into Patagonia’s own product design philosophy. We’ve been making gear for many decades now, fishing gear for many decades. And there’s a lot that’s gone into that that’s informed along the way that we don’t just come out with something new for the sake of coming out with something new. We borrow the best of what was what worked from the previous product, and we keep pushing it forward. And so we’re kind of like the I would say it was like we’re never satisfied. And I think as a marketer, that’s an insight that comes from Kate and the rest also the product org here as well. 00:28:36 Dave: The product design philosophy is is key. And it goes back to and we again had another guest. This came up on the podcast who he was a fisherman I think he was a guide. And he talked about he first started using Patagonia back when, um, you know, Yvon was doing his was the pitons. Right. Was that the first product in Patagonia? 00:28:53 Kate: The first product? Patagonia. Well, there was uh, yeah. Pitons. 00:28:57 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:28:57 Dave: And the idea being was shared equipment. Yeah. Exactly. Before it was even Patagonia and, um. Yeah, but the idea was, is how do you create this in rock climbing? Less impact on the rocks because that’s what he hated. 00:29:10 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 00:29:11 Dave: And from the very beginning, and I loved what he said on the podcast, too, because he said that he’s always done in business the exact opposite of pretty much what everybody else was doing. And it’s always worked out for him. And I feel like, is that still how do you look at that and say you’re doing things differently and you’re tweaking things and shaking things up a little bit out there? 00:29:29 Kate: Nick, do you want to how do you feel? 00:29:31 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I think so. 00:29:33 Nick: And I mean, I think, you know, the fly fishing community, it’s one of the most important things in my life. But it’s also small. And so it’s I think it’s really powerful when you see an organization that is kind of trying to rethink things and push things in a different direction. And I think, you know, a lot of that, you know, people reference Yvon, but that all the time. Um, and I mean, I think it’s a lot of kudos to Kate, too, because she lives, breathes and speaks that and lives it. And it’s important because there are a lot of teams that are pushing for product to be successful here, but to really advocate for, you know, core sport and something that’s as specific as fly fishing and to continue to push it in line with not just the status quo and not just what everyone else is doing. Like that takes a pretty unique approach in person. 00:30:26 Kate: Yeah. Um, it’s funny, my husband always jokes that I’m not a nonconformist. I’m an anti conformist, anti. And I’m always going against the grain. So I, you know, if you’re not challenging things, it gets a little boring. So she asked me, so, uh, we’re constantly thinking about things differently and how to, you know, you know, do things better, but also just challenge why we’re doing things to begin with. 00:30:52 Speaker 4: So yeah. 00:30:53 Dave: Nice. Nice. This is great. Well, you know, I think we’ve done a good start here in digging into this. What else are we missing here on the waiters or the program or the whole, you know, getting to this point. Anything else you guys want to share on, you know, today? 00:31:05 Nick: I mean, one thing I will point out is there’s some folks, you know, we’ve got a network not just only of folks internally, but just some really important partners out in the community, including our ambassadors and field testers. And there’s overlap there. I know, you know, Jeff Lasky is a frequent collaborator of yours. I was listening to your guys’s last episode on the, uh, about the this morning on my way into work. 00:31:29 Speaker 4: And, yeah. 00:31:30 Nick: It’s those types of people that also just inform so much of what we do. 00:31:34 Kate: One of our best testers is Jeff. 00:31:36 Speaker 4: He is? 00:31:37 Kate: Yeah. He’s awesome. Yeah. Hillary. Kate Trump. There’s a handful. So many people. Simon too that work with us, um, to help bring all of our products to life. And they are absolutely so responsible for helping us build the best products out there. 00:31:51 Dave: That’s right, that’s right. Yeah. He said, we were talking about I can’t remember if it was on that episode, but we were asking and just about how he does it, and he was talking about how he, you know, abuses the gear as a tester. And he’s just, you know, basically it’s frozen. It’s sitting in the back of his truck wet, you know, and he’s obviously out there more than anybody else. Right. Because he’s living that is that is that pretty. 00:32:10 Speaker 4: Much the only other. 00:32:11 Dave: Testing. 00:32:12 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:32:12 Kate: The only other person that might be out there more is our field testing manager, Kyle Toyama, who’s literally his job is to just fish for us and test our gear. 00:32:21 Speaker 4: Which is kind of the. 00:32:22 Kate: Cushiest job in the world. 00:32:23 Speaker 4: I say, that’s. 00:32:24 Dave: A great job. 00:32:25 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:32:26 Dave: Okay. Yeah, I don’t know, Kyle. I’m gonna have to definitely connect with him. That sounds pretty good, but that’s pretty much what you do, right? You give. Once you get to that point, you let them take the gear and just basically trash it and do their best like they do, and then and then let you guys know what’s up with it. 00:32:41 Kate: Yeah. Sometimes we tell them what to look for. Sometimes we do blind tests where they don’t even know what they’re actually testing for. Um, just to see if they notice anything different. For example, with PFAS, we did that a lot. We had two different legs, one with different C6 chemistry. Some would see zero just to get the full response from the community. That’s unbiased. So we um, yeah, but essentially test it like you’re a regular community member and you’re going to beat the out of it, put it in the back of your truck, not care for it at all. That’s what we want. 00:33:13 Dave: Nice, nice. And that online with you Nick, on the marketing. Do you guys utilize some of that to show how abused it’s getting out there and how it’s living up to the expectations? 00:33:23 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:33:24 Kate: I was going to say she mentioned our boots and how we have some new boots coming out that. 00:33:28 Speaker 4: Are. 00:33:28 Kate: Flown to all over the world. 00:33:30 Nick: Yeah. No. It’s amazing. I mean, you can’t really ask for like, better marketing material than, um, the just field testing anecdotes and the actual experience that, like, a lot of this product actually went through. Um, so, I mean, we’ve got an ambassador network again, not just domestically but internationally because, you know, fishes in some of the most aspirational, but more importantly, just gnarly terrain out there. Um, and we’ve got a really exciting new boot on the horizon that’s been tested. I mean, everywhere from all over the Seychelles, three different parts of the Seychelles, actually. Mexico, Nicaragua. Um, so that covers a lot of salt water and probably the worst salt water you could put it through in terms of just coral and abrasion. Um, but was also tested in like just a lot of really versatile freshwater. So all the way from New Zealand to the Yellowstone area, the snake. Italy. Um, it’s a boot that I would not you know, I think a lot of folks just say, like, hey, this is going to be a saltwater boot. This is going to be a freshwater boot. I would not put this boot in a box. So. 00:34:40 Speaker 4: Um, wow. 00:34:42 Nick: And that’s that’s something that comes out during field testing. That’s when you actually start to realize that, like, oh, this is something that’s a lot bigger than we even thought it was. Yeah. 00:34:51 Dave: Right. Is this boot out coming out soon Twenty twenty six. There you go. Okay, perfect. So we’ll be looking for that. The new boot. And like you said, this is a boot that whether salt or fresh or, you know, whatever, it’ll cover it all. 00:35:04 Nick: Yep. Exactly. 00:35:05 Dave: Okay. And is this boot have I think one thing that we get lots of questions on are and this has been through the industry where you have, you know, you’ve got felt, you got studs and then you go away from that for a while and you’re to rubber talk about that. Are you guys what’s your what will this boot have rubber felt. What will it look like. 00:35:21 Nick: This is going to be a rubber boot. Um, and I think without going into too much detail, I think it’s, I think if you look, I don’t know if you look at the for a boot, for a boot was a really powerful moment. And it’s in line with exactly what Kate was talking about. And in terms of the way that Yvonne speaks to product, like the four came out, I want to say it was fall twenty twenty three and it’s everywhere now. I mean, I got up to BC, uh, this last year actually, and in a place where I only see, have only really seen felt in the past is what all the outfitters would say. Like, hey, you need felt in this specific place. Um, and I showed up and all my buddies were wearing forests and I was like, wait, I didn’t send you guys any of these? Like, and like, no, the word of mouth had carried through that much, you know, rubber soled boot that was, you know, on the Bulkley, which is one of those, you know, it’s on that list of the Deschutes, the Madison, those just tricky, oily rivers. 00:36:18 Speaker 4: Wow. 00:36:18 Dave: And so and what is the name of this? This is the previous boot you had out there. The style, the rubber. 00:36:23 Kate: This one will is still out there. So that’s the four boot. And then we have the new boot that’s coming out. 00:36:29 Speaker 4: In. 00:36:29 Kate: February twenty twenty six. We actually have a really big, um, moment across. Um, well, we have this new boot that’s coming up, but we also have a big saltwater push in general. So you’ll see some really, um, honestly, how did we say it in our marketing? The it’s a new standard. Standard, a new standard for UPF. So we have some super powerful products that are coming out, from revamping the San decay to UPF protection and setting a new standard that is all inherent to the material. So super, super cool. 00:37:05 Nick: And again, kind of what I was saying with the referencing the fora is this new boot is a really great compliment to the fora. So I think folks will find, you know, these basically these kind of two boot options from us that are they complement each other really well. They cover a lot of different terrain and they’re both boots that really rethink what a wading boot is. 00:37:26 Dave: This is great. No, I’m excited about this one too, because I think that that is a challenge. I think a lot of people, probably some people still think that, yeah, you got to have a certain type of boot maybe felt to have the best grip, but it sounds like this is going to be comparable to that, or you already have something out there. And will the sole on the new boot be similar to the fora different? 00:37:43 Nick: But again, they complement each other really well. So if you’re kind of wet waiting and basically any freshwater saltwater environment. We’ve got something for you. And also with waders. 00:37:53 Kate: Yeah. You see, over the next few years, we’ll be resetting a lot of our line or revamping, um, the products from all of our core to even, um, our sun protection and fine tuning where we need to, and introducing new products where we’ve been missing things along. So you’ll see that come out over the next couple years. 00:38:16 Dave: Okay, good. Well, we’re going to take it out here a little bit, but I did have a question just on waiter. Waiter tips. As far as you know we want to make these things last forever. What would be maybe. Kate, this is in your realm. We want these waiters to last. What should we be doing after we wear them? Is this something where we hang them to dry? Do we turn them inside out? Do you have a few tips that you would tell somebody that they’re using the waders this year? 00:38:37 Kate: Yeah. Honestly, one of the best recommendations is actually to wash your waders. Um, like. 00:38:42 Speaker 4: In a bathtub. 00:38:43 Kate: Yeah. So protecting the membranes. Really important to keep your waders from not wetting out over a long period of time. Um, with ours or with any waiter. This is not just a phase three waiter in general, protecting even your shells. Um, so rain jackets, you know, protecting the membranes. Super important. So washing and drying that with high heat is, um, not necessarily in a dryer, but in sun is really important. Always hanging up your waders, you know, try not to, um, have them in the back of your truck for long periods of time. All crumbled up. But I won’t lie, I do that as well. 00:39:18 Speaker 4: So, you. 00:39:19 Kate: Know, we’re building in a way that we know people are not going to actually take care of them. But if you want to. 00:39:23 Speaker 4: Extend it, yeah, there’s definitely a. 00:39:26 Kate: Whole series of, uh, lists for actually all of our products. It’s called Duty of Care, and that’s on our website. 00:39:33 Dave: Okay. Duty of care. 00:39:34 Speaker 4: Yep. 00:39:35 Dave: Yeah. Perfect. I think we all sometimes forget I just recently I got back from a steelhead trip, kind of a road trip, and I totally forgot two of my rod cases were in the bottom of the boat. They were just soaked and I forgot to pull him out. And I just opened him up yesterday. And there was actually mold. Mold on the. I know, and I think I’m okay because you know what I mean. But it was just like, oh, the ultimate blunder, right? You know, like that would be terrible. So I think we all do make mistakes. But the key is to yeah, if you have your waders hanging let them dry out. And you said take just in a soap, just regular like, um, like what type of soap would use for that to clean them in the bathtub? 00:40:07 Kate: Um, I don’t remember off the top of my head, actually. 00:40:10 Speaker 4: Yeah, it. 00:40:10 Dave: Could be just regular soap. 00:40:11 Speaker 4: Any sort of. 00:40:12 Kate: You can use soap or wax or. 00:40:15 Speaker 4: Yeah, or wax storm last. 00:40:17 Nick: I think we actually saw that on our retail stores too, when I did the bathtub wash on mine after BC like two weeks ago or a week ago. And it was it’s a lot easier than throwing them in the washer, I’ll say that much. 00:40:28 Kate: Actually. You really shouldn’t necessarily put them in a washing machine or dryer. So make don’t do that. But because it’s a way for it to actually get more dings on your waders by straps. But um, washing by hand is the best way to do it in a bathtub and then drying in the. 00:40:42 Speaker 4: Sun. 00:40:42 Dave: Is the best way. And that’s to keep. Keep them clean. Right. You want that dirt? You keep the dirt off because that keeps them breathable. Right. 00:40:47 Speaker 4: Yep. 00:40:48 Kate: But again, I only know two anglers that wash their stuff. And Nick is one of them. 00:40:52 Speaker 4: So I know. 00:40:53 Dave: Well, I can tell you I’m definitely like I said, obviously we leave my rods. I’m not the best with gear. I’m pretty. I’d probably be a good crash test dummy for you on your stuff. 00:41:01 Speaker 4: Yeah. There you go. 00:41:02 Dave: I abuse stuff, but, um. But. Okay, well, this is good. I think that, um, you got a couple of random ones, then we’ll get out of here. Uh, today, um, and we mentioned really we talked about ambassadors, community, anything there on that you want to highlight? I feel like community is, again, so important, but how do you guys, you know, cultivate that community? Maybe on that one give us a little high level. What does community mean to you and how do you keep that community going strong? 00:41:26 Nick: I mean, I’d say even start on a personal note that like I when I got into fly fishing, you know, I loved the activity and I loved the fish and I loved the places it brought me to, but I don’t think I would have even, you know, I think the thing that actually kept me with it was the community of people that surrounded me with. I mean, that’s ultimately when I got to Patagonia, like that was one of the most important parts of what brought me there. And yeah, I mean, so it’s personally that community has meant more than anything. And then I would just say the way that we activate, whether it’s through product or whether it’s through, you know, grassroots activism community is at the core of all of that. It’s at the core of the people that use our product to test our product. It’s the people that show up for rallies to, you know, protest against the mine or speak up against a new, you know, deadbeat dam. And so, yeah, I would say community is kind of our lifeblood. Um, and we’ve got, you know, we’ve got an incredible ambassador squad, but I also wouldn’t, you know, I wouldn’t just say that I wouldn’t just wouldn’t tie community just to that. We’ve got an extraordinary network of friends. I would say that, you know, make us who we are from an angling standpoint. 00:42:43 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:42:43 Kate: I would also add to that, um, in addition to community, just specialty shops, you know, are so important to us and what we’re doing without them. You know, our communities, honestly, nothing. You know, we are not a DTC only brand. We’re not going to do that. Um, we strongly believe that our community comes through our specialty shops as well. So just wanted to add that. 00:43:08 Dave: Yeah, yeah. And what are the specialty shops? What would those be? I mean, obviously you have fly shops. Is that kind of what you’re focusing on here? 00:43:14 Speaker 4: Yes. 00:43:14 Kate: Fly shops a better term, should I say that? 00:43:16 Nick: I think we’re internally at Patagonia. When you’re talking about other other sports, you know, you’re often referred to as specialty internally. So we kind of Kate and I jump back and forth between who we’re speaking to and. 00:43:31 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:43:31 Dave: Every industry has well, not every I feel like fly shops are kind of unique. But yeah, you have the climbing, you have ski. All those have specialty shops right in there. 00:43:40 Speaker 4: Yeah, but there’s probably from Patagonia. 00:43:42 Dave: Are they. 00:43:43 Speaker 4: Similar? Yeah. 00:43:43 Kate: Patagonia’s point of view. Like we, um, sure. Surf or surf snow is really important to our company, but we’re really big outdoor brand, right. And we are very focused on specifically fish specialty. So our fly shops but also surf specialty, we have two dedicated teams that for sales that work really closely with them. And I would say, um, not to brag, but I think our sales in fish sales members on the fish team are they’re just so tapped into the community. And I don’t think that we could have a better team, honestly. 00:44:17 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:44:17 Dave: That’s cool. Nice. Okay. And yeah. And that goes along with, uh, I’m just thinking of all the community, and I’m thinking about the videos and you mentioned some of the conservation stuff and the dams and, you know, a lot of this cool stuff that you’re doing out there. Um, you know, it’s pretty that is the community, right? People are connecting. There’s some people that, you know, kind of are into that. What’s your take? Maybe just as we take it out of here. Conservation seems like it’s just. Who wouldn’t support conservation? We’re in it. It’s fly fishing. We’re saving. You know, we want to protect the fish, you know? What is your kind of take on that when you hear maybe some topics that are, um, you know, not really on the same lines. Maybe there’s some politics involved. Is that something that you guys, either of you get involved with or have to worry about any of that stuff? 00:44:59 Nick: I think it’s something that I think every member of our organization is expected to be on the front lines of, and we have an incredible environment, an environmental team here that can be real specialists in some issues that get like very nuanced. But at the end of the day, you know, we’re all working towards the same mission, saving our home planet. And the way that we can express that through category is like, we’ve got pretty clean filters and we’re not we’re pretty unabashed and expressing that. And when it comes to dams and hydropower or open net pen aquaculture or hatcheries. Um, we, I think, are pretty firm in our stance that those are hurting wild fish. Uh, and clean water. 00:45:44 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 00:45:46 Dave: Perfect. Yeah. I think that there’s a bunch of issues. We’ve talked about them. A number of them were doing Atlantic salmon event right now, and we’ve been talking to a lot of conservation groups in northeastern Canada. And, you know, hearing the same things. You know, they’re on the ground trying to support these local groups. And I think that’s what Patagonia has to write. A lot of the funding goes to let those people on the ground do some great work. 00:46:05 Nick: I mean, that’s another just part of like Kate called out, um, our specialty fly shop partners. Another part, and this is one of my favorite parts of the job is just our nonprofit partners that we work so closely with. I think one of the hard things, uh, one of the things I’ve found hardest with just with my own position is the overwhelming number of just and especially in the kind of current political climate, the overwhelming number of kind of, you know, really urgent Issues facing wild fish out there. And it’s just like there’s this kind of constantly a new assault on, you know, a river or body of water, whether it’s a dam or etc. and we have these incredible nonprofit partners that are really are the boots on the ground, and they’re the experts, and we can rely on them to help inform us, uh, and work together to really, I would say activate at scale. 00:46:59 Kate: Yeah, really support and amplify their vision and mission, I think, is one thing that we’re always looking to do. And again, just climate change in general. And I know this is it can be a political and is a political conversation, but I’m hoping it is one thing that we can all agree on that we want to strive for. 00:47:17 Speaker 4: Yep. 00:47:18 Dave: Definitely. Yeah, I think it is. I think I feel like, you know, we’ve had a number of episodes where people are, you know, one, I remember we were talking in eastern Idaho, we had an episode and, um, one of our guests there was talking about how the, the local organization, I think was the Henry’s Fork Foundation, was doing a really good job of bringing groups together from both sides, the water users and the nonprofit, you know, kind of conservation groups and really everybody just at the table talking, right, trying to find solutions. And he was saying there he’s like, hey, the farmers love fish too, right? And they love the environment. And so I think that trying to, you know, bring people together, talk about it, trying to come up with common, you know, I don’t know what the word is. Probably a common thread, right, is important. But no, this is awesome. I really appreciate this today. So a couple just one for each of you. I have two questions here. Um, one is on the trip like home waters. I’m not sure, Kate, if you do a lot of fishing out there, but, Nick, let’s start with you. What’s your. Do you have a home? Water. Now you fish. 00:48:13 Nick: You know, I feel like one thing that I’ve. I’ve have so many wonderful friends in the community and have been fortunate enough now to fish a lot of places close by. Um, and I would say when I moved to California, I’m the East Coast right after college, I, um, I really explored California through the lens of fly fishing. So there were places that, like the McCloud that I don’t know if I ever would have seen had it not been for fly fishing. Um, and there was a group I do a lot of work with, California trout that I think is it’s it’s just really important to me because of everything I’ve seen in this state that I, again, I don’t know if I would have experienced had not been fly fishing. Um, and so I guess I would consider, you know, there’s a lot of things in California I would consider my home water. But I think just at this moment in time, I’m probably stuck in steelhead brain and British Columbia and, um, right up in Smithers a few weeks ago and kind of look forward to that now as much as anything. 00:49:11 Dave: And the cool thing about the McCloud and really all that Northern California, we’ve talked about this with John Shuey on the podcast. The history is steelhead fishing in this country started kind of in Northern California. That’s when the first people were bringing over the the trout flies in, when they were doing the gold rush and all that stuff. It was just kind of. So there’s kind of a crazy, amazing history, right? Even though populations have been up and down. 00:49:32 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:49:32 Dave: How about you, Kate? 00:49:33 Kate: Um, I’d say the Yellowstone caldera, the Henry’s Fork zone is definitely, um, my spot, my family’s spot. And we’ve been going there for years and absolutely love it. You know, everything from Madison, Gallatin, everything in between. 00:49:51 Speaker 4: So that’s. 00:49:52 Dave: Perfect. Yeah. Now we’ve talked. I mean, again, for me, I’m traveling a lot to and find myself, you know, fishing probably more outside of my home state than inside, you know, and it’s kind of it’s been exciting, but, um. But no, this is great, I think. Do you want to leave us? I put you on the spot here. Do either of you have a story about the waders you want to share as we head out of here? Maybe. I don’t know if there’s some story about abuse or, you know, the, you know, the waders. Anything that we haven’t said today, you want to give a highlight? 00:50:20 Speaker 4: Um. 00:50:21 Nick: Can I give a non-water highlight? 00:50:23 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 00:50:24 Nick: Just a little just a little. Shout out. We have a new book. Pheasant tail, pheasant tail. Simplicity. It’s from, um, Yvonne Craig Matthews and Mauro Mazzo. They wrote, um, simple fly fishing back in twenty fourteen. And this is kind of their follow up to that. So. It’s flies all tied using that all share Pheasant Tail as a kind of inherent material. And then the techniques used to demonstrate them. Um, and there’s a ton of videos that link out from QR codes in the book of how to tie the flies, how to do demonstrations. Um, I just want to give a shout out that we have a number of events that we’re running, um, currently that have happened over the last week or couple of weeks and are continuing over the next few weeks, um, throughout the country, um, at our retail stores where folks can actually meet up with our ambassadors and they’ll learn to tie some of the flies from the book, they’ll learn what the kind of craft of fly tying means in their own journey. So I think fly tying isn’t something that we that anyone talks about enough, but it’s something that we certainly think is kind of core to our DNA. 00:51:28 Kate: Yeah. And it really goes back to, honestly, our whole product philosophy around simplicity. And, um, yeah, it’s a it’s a really wonderfully done third rendition of simple fly fishing. Um, and that also took us a long time to work on. 00:51:44 Dave: So that was another that was the first book or one of the first books. 00:51:47 Kate: This is the third edition of the book. 00:51:49 Speaker 4: So, uh, the third version. 00:51:51 Kate: Of the book, I should say not. Third edition. Third version. 00:51:53 Dave: Third version. Okay. Yeah. And we actually had, uh, Craig on, on a podcast where we talked about he gave us the rundown on the book. It was really cool to hear some of the stories there. 00:52:02 Speaker 4: Oh, right. 00:52:03 Dave: Yeah, yeah. And it was awesome. So we’ll put a link in the show notes to that one, which will be great because Craig Craig’s got all sorts of crazy stories too, from his life back in, uh, Jackson in that area back in the day as a, I think he was a city, uh, officer, police officer. 00:52:16 Nick: He was a sheriff in West Yellowstone. 00:52:18 Speaker 4: Sheriff. He’s got some. Yeah, he’s a sheriff. 00:52:21 Dave: Yeah. Craig. So, um. But that was good. Okay, so no, this has been awesome. I think, um, you know, like I said, I’m really excited about hearing all the, the new stuff coming out too and just want to, you know, thank you both for coming on here and, you know, doing the good work to, um, you know, again, like we said, help save our home planet and provide great products for everybody out there. 00:52:37 Kate: Thank you very much. 00:52:38 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:52:39 Nick: This is wonderful. Thank you. 00:52:42 Dave: All right, like we said, if you want to check in with, uh, Patagonia, Swift Current or any of their product line, you can head over to Patagonia Comm right now. If you want to specifically take a look at these waders, just go to Swiftcurrent and that’ll direct you right there to those waders. Uh, big shout out to you if you are a supporter of Patagonia, uh, one of the great companies out there doing great work. If you have a story to share, I’d love to hear about it. You can send me an email. Dave, at. We’ve heard a number of these great stories on the podcast, and it’s exciting, as always, to talk to, uh, to people using, uh, Patagonia stuff out there. Uh, big shout out we mentioned on this podcast, The Atlantic Salmon, uh, school and the trip is going strong right now. We also have a great episode coming out later this week. We’re going to be talking about conservation of Atlantic salmon, so you don’t want to miss this one. We’ve got the, uh, the key person that is in charge of protecting the five provinces of northeastern Canada, a non-profit. They’re doing some great work. So please subscribe to this podcast, follow us and you’ll get notified when that next episode goes live. And I want to thank you today for joining and listening to the very end of this episode. And, uh, yeah, I just want to appreciate your support and want to say wishing you a great afternoon, a great evening, uh, or if it’s morning, you’re just starting your day out today. Hope you enjoy that, uh, that warm cup of coffee and, uh, and we’ll talk to you and see you on that next episode.